Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Fester' on September 11, 2001, 04:35:00 PM
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stand back for a minute.
being as all who frequent this board fly virtually or in real life.
a 737 hijacked and on its way to hit a civilian target.
yet this
airplane crashed in a field.
clearly the hijackers intention was to bomb a civilian target yet the attck using this aircraft has failed.
those who fly in real life know in the back of their mind that when their aircraft is crippeled or out of control they are going to aim it away fom populated areas if possible.
it would seem that their was a violent struggle in the cockpit of this doomed aircraft.
a struggle that can be broken down to good versus evil.
but only time will tell and only then if the voice recorders were left on and are still intact in the debri.
it would seem this particular airliner, its crew and passengers made the ultimate sacrifice to save the lives of others.
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I was thinking the same thing, Fester/Citabria. Either, the pilot was one very brave man and said, "Screw you, you bastard" and flew into the ground, or there was a security officer on board that shot the son-of-a-squeak flying, or something similar. Either way, I feel Pennsylvania was fortunate. I happen to know there are two very large ammunition depots just to the west of where that plane augered.
Time will tell.
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There are also some indications that USAF may have downed that one. CVR/FDR on all of these birds is going to tell the story. Not a fun one to read I am afraid. :(
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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After I heard about the 4th Airliner crash I immediately thought about the brave crew that instead of handing the plane to the madmen so they could crash it possibly into a Empire State Building or the UN Building just sacrificed their lives and crashed the plane in an uninhabited area.... Let God svae their souls...
btw I heard rummors that US Fighters shot down 2 Airliners who failed to identify themselves on landing? Is it true or just a rumor?
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Madbird, it may be the two Korean planes that landed in Canada that your talking about:
*it later turned out They just took them down for saftey. They were actually "escorted" down by two USAF F-15 Eagles
The airliner declared an emergency because of low fuel. So that was the whole thing was not a hijacking.
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"A transport plane and a passenger airliner have been forced down at
Whitehorse, Yukon Territory in Northern Canada by Canadian Air Force CF-18s.
Word is that the airliner is being treated as a hijack situation. "
"2 Korean Aircraft. 1 Cargo plane and 1 Airliner. The airliner was bound for
Alaska. The passengers are still aboard. 3 CF-18's still circling the
airport there, loitering in relay. RCMP have both a/c cordoned off. They've
been there for hours. The RCMP have not been able to communicate with the
crews. "
http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/news/2001/09/11/can_travel010911 (http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/news/2001/09/11/can_travel010911)
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Thirdup ]
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I live 25 miles south of Pittsburgh. I could see the smoke from the crash from my house. I do believe as many you do, that the Pilot did a heroic deed and crashed his aircraft. However, about 2 hours later near noon local time, I did hear a couple of jets go to afterburner nearby.
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Heard that it was Camp David that the 4th plane was headed for.
Pentegon deny's shooting it down. That leaves control in the hands of the flight deck crew.
Anyway you look at it they made the ultimate sacrifise and safeguarded untold numbers of innocent people by their actions.
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i sure hope it wasn't shot down. i would hate for some fighter pilot to have to live with that, doing whats necesary is not always easy to live with.
either way all those on that plane where heros sacrificed to save the lives of many others
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Salute to the crew and/or interceptors.. whichever is appropriate.
If it was the crew then it's obvious they made the ultimate sacrafice.
It was the AirForce, then it must have been very difficult indeed to pull the trigger knowing you were killing many innocents to save even more.
Heroes either way.
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the 4th plane was on a direct course for DC. i think it must have been the capitol or white house
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I hope the NTSB/FBI will make the CVR public.
<edit>If the PIC or FO stopped the aircraft from reaching the DC area.... I hope his/her family will receive the Medal of Freedom.</edit>
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Ozark ]
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Might of been a back up plane... the first ones made thier target so this hijacker simply ended it vie killing himself,the crew and the passangers...
I hope the crew was the reason it crashed so to speak. I hope they had the satisfaction of spoiling one bombers dream and he thought of failing his mission and going to hell... I hope he felt alot of terror and fear as well.
xBAT
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Sorry, no such thing as a backup plane in an operation like that. A hijacked plane would have a target. There are plenty of buildings to hit.
For all we know, the plan could have involved a dozen hijackings, but some were intercepted, and others were foiled by closing down the airports.
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Wish they would decide what kinda plane, heard 757, 737, 747..
I believe it was shot down.. several reports I heard stated a plane was intercepted, and then proceeded to say a plane crashed near pittsburgh. Then later reports, that the plane crashed before interceptors left the ground???
Reports that an explosion was heard before the crash.
It crashed in a rural area .. sacrifice the few to save the many..
To me its obvious, and if you think that the gov't or the military will ever admit to giving the order.....
SKurj
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: SKurj ]
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Skurj, from what I've heard there were 2 767's and 2 757's. They say cockpits are virtually identical, they may have been picked for that reason.
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Skurj,
It wasn't shot down. USAF says that no airliners were shot down.
Add to that tha a passenger called his wife to tell her he loved her, goodbye and that he and two other passengers were going to try to retake the plane.
It went down either in the control of a terrorist in order to cause some damage because they were about to be overpowered.
Or:
During the struggle it went out of control and crashed.
Or:
Somebody got control briefly and put it in the ground to protect those on the ground where the terrorists wanted to crash it.
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The flight path of the plane showed that it actually made it to north-central Ohio before it turned back heading east over Pennsylvania.
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believe what u will...
My belief is it was shot down, and never ever will evidence come out to support that. The made for TV movie due out in 2 months will further bastardize the tale no doubt.
SKurj
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Originally posted by Karnak:
.....Add to that tha a passenger called his wife to tell her he loved her, goodbye and that he and two other passengers were going to try to retake the plane.
It went down either in the control of a terrorist in order to cause some damage because they were about to be overpowered.
Just for the record although I stand to be corrected, I don't believe there was any other cell call from Flight 93 other than the one referred to in this CNN clip. A man called his mother and said he loved her, but no mention of rushing the terrorists to re-take the plane.
http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/vosot.family.911.ktvu.med.html (http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/vosot.family.911.ktvu.med.html)
If there was some other call, I'd be interested in the reference link or source of facts.
Thanks.
Edit: If link times out, try it later as all CNN News links have been sporadic for obvious reasons.
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Badger ]
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Badger,
It was a differnet call. They mentioned that one too.
It was on the TV news so I can't link to it.
Skurj,
Witnesses on the ground reported that the aircraft appeared and sounded fine.
If it had been shot down there probably would have been smoke and fire.
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Skurj....
No aircraft exploded in air would leave a crater that large...in addition there were witnessess that saw it intact hitting the ground.
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I severely doubt that the USAF shot the plane down, but Rude- no air to air missile we have would obliterate an airline in the air, it would only be able to do enough damage to make it unflyable. Whatever brought the plane down saved countless lives. Btw- they had the guys mom on TV last night and I believe she said that her son told her they were going to attempt to take the plane back... brave souls.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Skurj,
It wasn't shot down. USAF says that no airliners were shot down.
Add to that tha a passenger called his wife to tell her he loved her, goodbye and that he and two other passengers were going to try to retake the plane.
It went down either in the control of a terrorist in order to cause some damage because they were about to be overpowered.
Or:
During the struggle it went out of control and crashed.
Or:
Somebody got control briefly and put it in the ground to protect those on the ground where the terrorists wanted to crash it.
Moments after the interview with the mother who's rugby-playing son sitting in first class phoned his mother(on the AirPhone, he was using his wifes flight pass I believe) and told her what was going on, this was the scenario which I believe closely matches what actually happened, I'm sure the terrorists were overwhelmed by passengers, and the cabin door was breached, either the terrorist flying augered the plane (Most likely scenario, put it in a powerdive, makes the guy behind you go back!) or the one of the pilots were still alive and struggled with the controls.
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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I might add that Camp David, and the '2nd pentagon'..place that is a back up facility just south of Camp David, were also 'potential targets' in its last flight path.
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A couple hours ago, CNN "Broke" the additional details of the story that were being reported elsewhere:
The flight path shows the plane being turned around in Western PA and started heading for Washington. A passenger named Glick (I believe) phoned his wife, who then confluffied 911. He reported the plane was hijacked; wife mentioned hijacked plane had hit WTC. He goes away from airphone for a minute, then comes back and says that he took a vote of all the males on board, and they were going to try to retake control of the A/C. Then he hung up.
Sounds like they died heroes.
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Better to die fighting than cowering.
<S> to the passengers who fought the animals that took their flight!
Mav
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Its highly unlikely for my POV, that the passengers augered the plane themselfs. Think about it, there were 5 armed with knives against 60 angry passengers.
This is the scenario:
1.theres 2 men in the cabins, 3 in the back guarding the passengers.
2.Passengers attack after negotiating it with amongs themselfs.
3.3 guarding hijackers maybe stab one or two, but are eventually knocked out and prolly killed (i would twist hijackers neck if i were them)
4. other of the "pilots" see whats happening and close the cabin door.
5.They do the only thing they can and push the nose down, intended crash, very likely pre-issued plan B.
I think the passengers never reached the pilots cabins, the pilot knew they wouldnt make it to the target. Muslims go straight to paradise when they commit suicide in holy terrorist act like this, so it wasnt hard decision for them.
Remember, these preparations took several years, they were fully teached how to act in different kind of situations.
When youre hijacking plane with swiss army knives, you can be very certain, that problems may occur and they knew it.
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I rather doubt that Camp David was a target. It's relatively small and not easily recognizable from the air.
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Tuomio,
Nobody is saying the people on the plane crashed it to avoid hitting something else.
All that is apparent is that these people decided it was better to fight the hijackers than to allow the plane to be used as a bomb resulting in all of their deaths at a minimum. Whatever happened after that ended with the plane crashing into a field as opposed to the White House. For that alone, the people on board are heroes. Heroes that died fighting as opposed to letting terrorists kill them while they sat docile.
AKDejaVu
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In fact, the news reports state that three passengers on flight 93 overpowered the hijackers but were unable to maintain control of the aircraft.
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Tuomio,
It should be noted that Muslims go straight to paradise when they commit suicide in holy terrorist act like this only in the opinion of the extreme fringe radicals of Islam.
According to the vast majority of Muslims, people who do this, irrespective of their claimed faith, go straight to Hell.
<S> to the passengers and crew of Flight 93 who decided to fight rather than die like sheep. Their sacrifice was not in vain.
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Skurj,
It wasn't shot down. USAF says that no airliners were shot down.
Add to that tha a passenger called his wife to tell her he loved her, goodbye and that he and two other passengers were going to try to retake the plane.
It went down either in the control of a terrorist in order to cause some damage because they were about to be overpowered.
Or:
During the struggle it went out of control and crashed.
Or:
Somebody got control briefly and put it in the ground to protect those on the ground where the terrorists wanted to crash it.
But why would they do that unless they knew the terrorist's intentions? How would you know the exact target? Think of self preservation... I'll explain: I'm sure the pilots had no clue of the other simultaneous hijackings. For all they knew this could just be a generic hijacking: Terrorists hijack a plane in order for their demands to be met or just to get home and make some sort of statement. But if you knew their suicidal intentions, would you automatically do the ultimate sacrifice and point the nose into the dirt? Put yourself in the pilot's position:
You become engaged in a struggle with terrorists. You and the passengers likely outnumber them. The news networks said they were armed with knives and pepper spray. There is a possibility you and the passengers would be able to subdue the terrorists and fly to safety. I'm sure this wouldn't play out like a Bond movie where the bad guys tell them their "Master Plan" and give you the targets and intentions. If I was the pilot I certainly wouldn't give up and crash teh damn thing, i'd put up a fight! If were to be, say, mortally wounded, I would then make the ultimate sacrifice and take the terrorists down with the passengers and the plane in order to save thousands of lives. There is no way to tell what they were thinking or how it really played out at this point. We will just have to wait til they find the black box. I hope you understand what I mean.
oct out.
(sorry for any mistakes in this post, i dont have time to proof read it :))
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Octavius,
If you read this thread, the latter parts of it anyways, it seems the following took place:
1) The hijackers gained control as they had on the other three flights.
2) A passenger phoned his wife using his cell phone and his wife informed him of what had happened in NY.
3) The passengers, now armed with the knowlege of the hijacker's intentions, decided to try to retake the aircraft.
4) The aircraft crashed in PA, most likely done intentionally by the terrorists when they realized they were going to lose control of the aircraft.
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Karnak, the overwhelming number of people who call themselves Muslims make a distinction between being a martyr and killing innocent people of whatever faith. LEt's face it, this slaughter isn't going to convert anyone to Islam. Nor is it going to further the cause of Islam in the world. Muslims are, like Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucians, and members of the other religions in the world, decent people with basic human values. So most Muslims are not under the illusion that these guys are going to Paradise. For if they are, moral humans of all religions are compelled to spit on a God who would establish such a world.
Some notes from CNN breaking report on flight 93:
mic left open to ATC. shouting heard in cockpit. Someone yells "get out of here"
microphone off. scuffling. yelll "get out of here"
English in ARabic accent: "There is a bomb on board. this is the captain speaking. remain in your seat. Stay quiet, we are meeting their demands. We are returning to the airport."
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Badger, It was a differnet call. They mentioned that one too.
Thanks.... I wasn't aware of that one.
Really sad.... :(
As a Canadian, I feel frustrated, angry and saddened that there isn't something tangible I can do personally to help all of the suffering. My emotions range from wanting to get in a car and go there to help dig through rubble, to wanting to volunteer for re-enlistment somewhere across the border after almost 30 years of retirement. Somehow I don't think they would want an old guy.
My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the victims and their families.
God bless America and all the values and shining principles of freedom she stands for.
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real heroes on this flight..
only God knows how many lives their sacrifice has saved...
<S> Jeremy Glick, Thomas Burnett & the others
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14344-2001Sep11.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14344-2001Sep11.html)
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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