Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Kronos on February 09, 2002, 12:09:14 PM
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It appears to me that most people seem to think that ACM simply means turning and turning your plane against the enemy's plane until one of you is dead, regardless of the plane that you are in.
Also that you should never use altitude to gain an advantage, and that if you are extending, then you are running.
Lets take an example, and I am not trying to flame the individual that I was up against, but it is a very good example of ACM and Air Tactics.
Im flying a P47d11, and my opponent is in a Ki61. Ever since the "Fire in the Sky" setup, I have come to respect the Ki61 more than any other plane in the AH inventory. The Ki61 is the only plane that I will ever think twice about before engaging.
Ki61 strengths (according to my observations flying against it)
Good low turning ability
Very Good acceleration, even in a dive
Fairly fast
Good armament
Weakness :
climbing above 15K
P47D11 strengths
good armament
using flaps, has some small ability to turn low and slow
can take lots of hits
good diving ability
fair climbing ability especially above 15k
Weakness
most planes out turn it
most planes out accel it
most planes out climb it
Now, the situation was this : we were about 15K when merging, I had higher alt, and better e advantage to start with, so I started to B N Z the Ki. He was able to smartly out manuevar me, and I began to lose e advantage, and we had dropped to 11K.
As I was still b n zing, I still had some advantage in e, but he was on my 6, less than 1.5k out. So, I began performing a chandelle, (slow climb turn allowing me to gain alt and keep speed up) and our spiral climb began (I was using wep to keep as much distance as possible). below 15k, he kept slowly gaining on me, almost to a 1.0k distance, but once we hit 15k, he began falling behind again. At 17K, I turned off wep, knowing that he couldnt catch me then. By 19K, he had fallen back to 1.7k distance, and over channel one came this :
Ok youve officially bored me by climbing to 20K
The ensuing conversation led me to believe he simply thought I was running away, and didnt want to fight him.
and he peeled off and headed for base. Now my plan had been to gain enough alt advantage over him that i could come back around on him and continue the fight on my terms. Didnt happen cause wilbuz came around in his 190 and killed me :( :D. (As he does almost every time)
The only advantage in a p47d11 that i have is to outclimb the ki61 so as to continue the fight on my terms.
I submit. This is using tactics to maintain an edge on an opponent. I try not to back down from fights, but I am not going to fight on someone else's terms. I make enough mistakes as it is, and flying an average plane, I have to use what i can to try to win.
Part of ACM is to use the plane's strengths that you're flying in against the weaknesses of the opponents. Energy fighting is the hardest form of ACM to do, not only because it takes patience, but because it is so easy to make a mistake and lose the advantage. In the CT, I will not hesitate usually to furball with a 109 or a 190, as many of the LW pilots will atest to. Japanese planes are impossible for me to do this with, as they simply turn too well. I am more willing to fight a N1k2 though, than I am a Ki61. I have to use the strengths of my plane v that of the enemy if I am even to have a chance. Also, in doing so, I am even willing to HO an enemy, especially those flying japanese aircraft, because I have to take any shots I can get. Another example, of me v a Ki the other day, we merged at about 10k, and I HO'd first pass. Unlucky for me, im a terrible shot, even with 8 0.50 cals. Anyway, as he was an able pilot, he got right in behind me and I had to dive to get away, which was ineffective anyway. On the deck he closed, and I started scissoring, forced him to overshoot once, pulled up behind him with flaps down and fired. Again due to my terrible shooting I missed. He came around, and this time with an e state which matched mine, nailed me. He gave me credit for good evasives, but didnt like the fact that I HO'd him. I explained myself, and he seemed to understand.
ACM is asmuch about altitude, e state and positioning, as it is turning ability.
Plz, correct me if im wrong.
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Ki61 has horrible accel and not-so bad dive (not great by any means).
It may look like it has good accel because it can make turns without much loss of E.
Aside from that, I agree.
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Great Stuff Kronos!
It's the age old arguement in on-line sims. The Turn and Burn crowd complains of the Boom and Zoom crowd, running. The Boom and Zoom crowd complains the Turn and Burn crowd won't hold still. Whataya going to do???????:eek:
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"Good ACM" is anything YOU successfully do to avoid being shot.
"Bad ACM" is anything the other guy successfully does to avoid being shot.
;)
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I agree 100%, Kronos.
Toad, all I can say is that I see my opponents doing much worse ACMs those days ;)
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A pilot logs into the CT and finds he is the only one flying for the Axis. 5 people were flying allied at the time. A quick check of radar shows two cons coming north out of A45. The pilot grabs a Ki-64 and launches.
As he's rolling, he sees two cons coming in. One at about 5k and one at 10k. He levels on the deck trying to get his speed above 250 as the low con turns out to be a Spitfire. A breif couple of turns proves fruitfull as the Spitfire stalls too near to the ground and augers. The 10k con has disco'd.
The pilot lands and replanes. He gets to about 6k before he bumps into the same Spitfire pilot. The engagement is over pretty quickly, though the Ki pilot has moved closer to A45 now. He notices a con upping from A45 and heads that way... taking a minute to nail the VH ack (northern most) as he notices the con reverse and actually land back at A45 after a rousing 45 second sortie. He heads back towards his own base as he notes two cons launching from A45. There's a chuckle issued as he sees A44 has been captured by the Knights. The term "Milkrun" is thrown out on channel 1.
When it becomes obvious that the con isn't going to reverse and land (down to one now... no idea where other one is) the Ki pilot turns to engage him. The low Spitfire (about 2k) makes some violent moves and then goes verticle... soon loosing a wingtip. About this time... somoene gets on ch. 1 and says something to the effect of "I'll give you a fight". The pilot politely asks if the Ki pilot is "OK"... illiciting a "?" in reply. Then the pilot calls in.
Now.. the "in" call somewhat confused the Ki pilot. He looks around in all directions and doesn't see any aircraft. Then he looks up. At about 15k there is a con... the Ki is still around 4k. The pilot noses down and tries to build up some speed in hopes the plane blows the pass... Spitfire pilots do that.
It takes some time for the higher con to descend and the Ki has almost made it back to base before the plane comes into icon range. It turns out "In" means "I'm diving my P-47D-11 from 15k on your low and slow Ki". The Ki should have said "thanks" for the "in" call.
The Ki reverses trying to keep his speed as the P-47 thinks about an HO then decides to extend. This is repeated about 4 times. Fortunately, a couple of Axis pilots log on and launch from the nearby field. The P-47 doesn't want to have much to do with them as he climbs away.
Finally, the Ki was able to grab a little alt since the P-47 was avoiding the 190s that had recently launched. The Ki pilot made it all the way up to 10k before getting the P-47's attention again. The P-47 was at about 15k at this time. Its close to co-alt... if you're telling the other side of the story. The P-47 dives down on the Ki who is flying towards him. The Ki noses down to pick up speed as the P-47 dives past him trying for a snapshot... reversing below him to climb away. That leaves the Ki behind him and slower.... but not that much slower. The Ki manages to stay about 1.7k back and about 1000 feet lower... hoping to keep the P-47 busy while the 190s grabbed some alt.
The P-47 just kept flying away... and kept flying away... and kept flying away. It was one hell of a defense. The Ki pilot got bored and left.. saying as much at the time. That's when the P-47 decided to show how much fun he was by engaging the two lower 190s. The Ki pilot hovered above and watched him die at the mercilesly to one of the 190s.
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However you chose to fly is your decision. To say how the P-47 pilot is flying is "smart" is simply rediculous. Its nice to try and paint it as if this were an "all things being equal" engagement... but two people there know that wasn't the case.
When there is such a small amount of people on-line... its amazing how someone will rely on being able to grab a huge advantage in some aspect. My God... entering a fight by calling "in" with a 10k alt advantage is not "equal". When things get closer to "equal" you run.
That Ki pilot is 2:2 against P-47s this tour. All of them in fights where everyone was engaging and having a blast.
There's a big difference between extending because its smart and extending because you don't know any better moves.
Any questions or arguments on the flight... give me an e-mail address and I'll send you the film. I kinda doubt you'll get the same offer from anyone else.
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that first flight u talk about I came from 47.... I was already in the air when u first logged in. I called out to ask if you were ok, because if you were damaged I was willing to let u rtb. You didnt answer, so, when I came in visual range from a higher alt, I called in, so that we might have a good 1 v 1 fight. YOU NEVER EVEN TURNED. You kept heading for base. I did a shallow dive to see if you were interested in fighting, then as u neared base, I pulled up to keep from running into an ack fight. Most pilots wouldn't have even bothered to ask if you had been damaged in the other fight. DONT PLAY HIGH AND MIGHTY WITH ME.
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I just checked the film... I did land.. replane and relaunch. I didn't have much ammo... especially when the only shot I'd hope to get is a 700 yard "while he's leaving" burst.
You just took the opportunity to climb a tad bit higher then the 4 passes... and so on. Sorry, but the whole thing took so damn long I forgot I landed twice.
Continue flying smart in the arena. And in the odd event that someone calls you on it, come here for moral support.
Amazing how 1 minute after being called on it you were mixing it up on the deck not being so smart afterall. :rolleyes:
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Who cares? Fly what you wanna fly and fight how you want to fight. You can only control what YOU do, so don't bother worrying about what the other guy does. Try to shoot him down, and try to have a good time. The rest is details. :)
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Agree with Kronos, HO too, is a form of ACM (although not a smart one in my book) however, to complain about HO is BAD, if you can't avoid a normal HO, sepcially on the first merge, you have no buisness in flying at all.
#1. Mode stick left till your plane is banked
#2. Pull stick back till you have turned a bit.
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Kronos.. win. Anything that gets you the advantage and gets the other guy into a parachute or a dirt nap is good 'ACM'.
Folks get 'duel' mentality confused with 'Arena' mentality. If the guy with a better T&B plane thinks yer a turd fer blasting him into confetti when he slides off the rope a dope or lines up a HO, just smile. Yer a live turd, he's a dead duck.
Personally, I never pass up a HO shot.. he can break, trade rounds or ram. I already made my choice, and I ain't 'chicken'.. I'll take the fediddlekin shot if thats what he wants, or he can dodge... but that's just me... I just don't give a damn about scores and a fresh plane is only 1 second away.
If the duck wants a fair fight he better stay the hell off the pond during hunting season. I love it when the ducks quack after they get smacked.. means yah did the job just right. ;)
The DA is for 'fair fights'. The CT and the MA are about getting an adavantage, holding it, whuppin up on the guy severely while you hold the advantage, and gettin the hell outta dodge when yah don't.
'Never turn to engage. Turn to kill.' Capt. Willie Driscoll, USN
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MrHanky, in all reality this was not meant to be a flame on you, really. If you feel like it was, I apologize. My "moral" was that I see no other way to gain an advantage on the Ki, other than outclimbing it over 15k. If you see another way, plz post it, and I'll try it. Turning doesnt work.
Qoute from my original post :
In the CT, I will not hesitate usually to furball with a 109 or a 190, as many of the LW pilots will atest to. Japanese planes are impossible for me to do this with, as they simply turn too well.
And you're right, after dealing with you I did have a 190 (I only saw one) come at me. As I said above, I am more than willing to scrap with 190's as the d11 will outturn the plane. (atleast the a5). Unfortunately for me, it was wilbuz, (and I dont think he was in an a5, cant remember) therefore I couldnt outturn him at all. Had I known ahead of time it was him, I would've prolly tucked tail and ran for home, as I was getting low on fuel anyway.
If you are flying a 190 in the CT arena, I am more than happy to scrap, as I have a fair chance of winning in a furball. If you are flying a Ki61, well then, until I find another weakness, I must do as I have done in the past. (If you catch me low and slow on the deck, I have no choice but to furball, as the KI beats the d11 hands down in acceleration on the deck. Im betting odds I'll lose though.)
Anyway, this is my last post for this thread.
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What is this "A-C-M" thing you guys keep talking about?
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Lephturn and Hangtime said it best. I agree with them.
Raubvogel, you better ask Hangtime what ACM is, cause he knows. LOL:)
Les
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
What is this "A-C-M" thing you guys keep talking about?
Stands for Air Combat Manuver, except in my case it stands for
"AHHH Can't manuver":D
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The basics of ACM can be sumed up thus:
"If you find yourself in a fair fight you didn't plan it very well"
Remember that......
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Thankfully that's not how the real guys in WWII defined it. Advantage or not, they stuck their nose in there.
P.S. I just watched Pearl Harbour again, where a couple of pilots...as in two...managed to get off the ground and took on about 100 Japs. Guys like this would find the thought that you only attack with the advantage ludicrous...if not gutless.
bowser
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Amen, Otto!
ACM, my version: Get your guns on the enemy before he can so the same to you. Anything goes. If you end up in a HO situation, don't whine. Win it, lose it, you let the other guy get his guns around on ya, your fault, not his. Fly your planes strengths, not your opponents, to hell with what he thinks or says.
Sermon over.........
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They didnt have icons bowser ;)
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Bowser, I would skip 'Pearl Harbor' and go back to 'Tora, Tora, Tora' A far better film.
It's been released on DVD and I got a copy at Circit City for $20.
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Originally posted by Löwe
Stands for Air Combat Manuver, except in my case it stands for
"AHHH Can't manuver":D
[Foghorn Leghorn] That was a joke son, a joke [/Foghorn Leghorn]
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Oohhh MrHanky's 2nd post.... already get's the Bronze star of whining :D
That guy learns quick!
I'm with Kronos on this one, why would he have wanted to give it to you on a silver platter... when he was able to shove it up your... ?
No mercy, no pitty ! (sp?)
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Yeah, but Pearl Harbor was a crock of S**t wasn't it? I thought so.
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Originally posted by FOGOLD
Yeah, but Pearl Harbor was a crock of S**t wasn't it? I thought so.
Yep.
Like in the big dogfight scene.
"Let's play chicken!"
Ya got 5 Zero pilot's that are so "target fixated" they never see the HO merge coming.
It'd have been alot move believable to me to have seen the P-40s doing a "THACH WEAVE" to clear the Zeros off thier six's.
Then there's where Ben Affleck says "Let's take 'em to the deck!"
Draggin' the Zeros down between buildings, the Zeros are shootin' at but missin' the P-40s, the overshots are hittin' people on the ground...
I just wonder how long that woulda lasted before some ack gunner got pissed off at the P-40 pile-uts and started pingin' away at the Tomahawks to make 'em go away.
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Oohhh MrHanky's 2nd post.... already get's the Bronze star of whining
That guy learns quick!
I'm with Kronos on this one, why would he have wanted to give it to you on a silver platter... when he was able to shove it up your... ?
No mercy, no pitty ! (sp?)
I find it quite ironic that this thread was started because I called someone's fighting style "boring" on channel one in an arena. You can argue validity, smartness or whatever. You simply cannot argue that the fight style is not boring.
I then, after this initial post, am labled a whiner.
One thing that needs to be realized by anyone feeling the need to off-handedly defend the "one pass then extend" flight technic is just how much fun that is when there's only two of you fighting at the time. If someone refuses to engage or give you any kind of oportunity in an engagement.. what is the point of engaging? What do you do when he's the only other pilot flying at the time?
The answer is simple.. you log off.
Someone above said something that most of the rest of you are missing also...Thankfully that's not how the real guys in WWII defined it. Advantage or not, they stuck their nose in there.
In every fight, someone is at a disadvantage. I don't know if the really inteligent thing to do is to commend that person for running away EVERY SINGLE TIME. That would make for some pretty boring fights... er... no fights.
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Yeah, Pearl Harbour was pretty bad, mostly due to the awful love story/dialogue. Flying/battle scenes weren't bad if you ignore the historical inaccuracies.
Have seen Tora, Tora, Tora several times Otto...good flick.
Actually I finally broke down and bought a good DVD player so I wanted to see a DVD that would give it a good work out. Fast and the Furious gave it a good work out also. :)
bowser
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Hanky man , saw two posts from you, both whines/complaints. You want the other guy to play your ball... that ain't the way it works.
Just ride the wave man!
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Originally posted by Saintaw
No mercy, no pitty ! (sp?)
This is the subtlest demand to perk Spitfires I've ever read! :D
Pepe
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shhhhhhht Pepe, I have other threads about that ;)
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Hanky man , saw two posts from you, both whines/complaints. You want the other guy to play your ball... that ain't the way it works.
This was started by someone else that didn't like me saying "You have officially bored me to death."
Of course, that individual didn't post his reply here... it was all me.
I left the fight. As I did, I said "You have officially bored me to death." I didn't continue on in the text buffer about it, nor did I come here to start whining about it. My post here was a REPLY... not a complaint. I hate it when someone tries to do some kind of self-justification with an "all things were equal" mistatement at the beginning.
As for the fight... I wasn't trying to get someone to fight my fight. I understand why he did what he did. I also understand that the only enemy flying at the time did not want to fight at all.
For some reason that escapes most. Once again, if you are only supposed to engage with an advantage... who the hell are you supposed to engage?
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Originally posted by Mr Hanky
For some reason that escapes most. Once again, if you are only supposed to engage with an advantage... who the hell are you supposed to engage?
Shane :D
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I've heard certain people brag that if they were given a TnB plane like a Spit, Zeke, etc. they could evade a BnZ plane's gun passes all day. Given Kronos' situation, if I were in the P47 and saw a Ki-61, I'd fight it out for a while. If the Ki could evade all my snapshots and I found myself suddenly co-E or worse, you bet I'd get out of there. Conversely, I flew axis during that period and took the Ki-61 since it's the closest thing to a 190D, and I tried to fly it that way. What did I want ami planes to do in a fight? turn. Hellcats were more problematic since they turned well, especially when light on fuel (I usually don't take light fuel loads, but given that it's an option...). Once in a while in the MA if I am pissed enough I will take up a spit v or zeke to furball. For anything that can outrun me, there is nothing more that I would like them to do than turn, or attempt to stick around. There are some who can do this well for a while even in faster a/c, but generally it's not so.
There are those who fly AH for the fight. They don't care about living or dying since this of course is a simulation. Some of these folks can get multiple kill sorties in the midst of the worst odds before they buy it (IF they buy it). Then there are those that fly to get some semblence of immersion, of the "real thing." Personally, I fit in this category. Will try to return to base as much as possible. Get out if the fight has gone bad. I can see how each of these flying styles can be seen as boring from the other side. That won't stop me from flying how I want to.
Sure in real life you were ordered to fly (with your squad or element) at certain altitudes under certain circumstances depending on mission. Sometimes, you were put at an advantage, sometimes disadvantage. In the "Green Hearts, First in Combat with the Dora 9" book, there is a passage where the doras were ordered to fly at a disadvantage despite knowledge of the weather and the fact that it was known allied fighters were ABOVE (I think it was to fly above a cloud layer under another that was filled w/allied a/c.. prime case for bounces). The flight leader (Hans Dortenmann, 38 kills, 18 in the Dora when the tide had already turned) who was given this order thought it was lunacy and suicide so he disobeyed, probably saving the fledglings under him to live another day. He got in trouble with the LW high command, but his geschwader kommodore got him off the hook (Pips Priller was good to his men). In AH we can pick and choose on our own, they of course couldn't. We should be happy to have this choice in our sim, there should be no need to dread if today will be "your turn" or not as they did.
mauser
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Agree with Kronos, HO too, is a form of ACM (although not a smart one in my book) however, to complain about HO is BAD, if you can't avoid a normal HO, sepcially on the first merge, you have no buisness in flying at all.
#1. Mode stick left till your plane is banked
#2. Pull stick back till you have turned a bit.
Gotta disagree fully here.
The front quarter shot as the HO often refers can be a last resort. I never take take it though in a 1vs1 as I prefer to earn my kills. Jousting, however, is another situation that the term HO is often used to refer to. It has absolutely nothing to do with ACM. Simply put, its a tactic of those lacking skill or the fortitude to force a fight beyond the simple nose on pass, extend, rev, nose-on, extend, ad infinitum format. Unfortunately its also a cornerstone of Jousting High and goes a long way to degrade what would otherwise be an excellent sim. As it sits, however, with the prevelance of the joust in this game it can only ever hope to be second rate insofar as the degree to which it encourages actual ACM. Air Warrior, as an example, was leaps and bounds ahead in this regard simply because it forced you to fly for, and earn, a kill. Jousting High has no such demands.
Avoiding it is irrelevant. The fact that it is used as a staple by many has already degraded the experience. Stearing away from the joust warriors is just a result of it being in the game...and you'll employ that for at least 80%+ of your encounters.
Complaining about it isn't bad per se. It is pointless though as it is a staple of HT's games and will never change. Warbirds always had this failing, and Jousting High carries the tradition. That's my gripe though, I just loathe the joust. In due course it will get the better of me and I'll undoubtedly move on as well, just as with WB's. Heh, not that anyone will lose any sleep from that :->. But it invariably annoys me enough that all fun is sapped from the game. The more I fly, the closer I come to that point. *shrug*
Edit: P.S. Wanted to note as well that I realize with the more complex approach to damage modelling used in the WB's/AH evolution, that preventing the joust becomes much harder than was the case in AW where you simply threw out the bulk of front quarter shots. Rather, my point was that that doesn't make it any less cheezy a "tactic" (and I use that term loosely), and certainly doesn't justify it being clasified in any way as something one works for or earns insofar as kills go.
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Hiya Vortex..
Allow me to dance with you on the front quarter and HO pass issue for just a bit.
Have you ever read Cunninghams account of his meeting with Maj Tomb? In order to reduce the lateral seperation at the merge and thus giving an even larger turn advantage to the turn rate superior Mig he opted for a close HO pass with that Mig.. and narrowly missed catchin 20mm cannon fire in the face as a result. (the f4 was gunless)
I'm in that situation every time I meet an opponent in AH.. get close, or give up angles.. not many planes turn worse than my pony, giving him some 'room' means giving him angles after that merge.
Choices.. dodge early, obtain seperation and give up any chance post merge for an angles edge... or face him down, force the other guy defensive early and do what I need to do.. get past him with minimum seperation. If I get a shot, I'll take it. If he ducks the shot, I'm still ready.. and commencing my initial turn (the best one a hot pony has) with as much of an advantage as that situation can muster.
HO's are REAL... and the front quarter snapshot at 15 degrees AON subsequent to the 'HO pass' is where I get a fair portion of my kills. If gunfire is exchanged in the HO merge, hey; thats part of the close lateral merge and angles fighting.. as done in RL, and not 'handicapped' by a bogus gamey 'damage lockout' on front quarter shots as done in AW.
I don't do it to be a HO dweeb,.. I do it to get that initial turn angle and rate advantage the plane I fly so desperately needs to stay in the fight after that 1st merge. In a bogey rich enviornment, the time it takes to work a guys AOT down to a rear quarter shot is all too often the diffrence between success and a nylon letdown. I'll take the close HO merge followed by a 15 degree AON shot any day when flyin in a populated area..
Duels are flown diffrerently than Arena engagements... more time = better options than a HO Hot merge.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Hiya Vortex..
*snip*
HO's are REAL... and the front quarter snapshot at 15 degrees AON subsequent to the 'HO pass' is where I get a fair portion of my kills. If gunfire is exchanged in the HO merge, hey; thats part of the close lateral merge and angles fighting.. as done in RL, and not 'handicapped' by a bogus gamey 'damage lockout' on front quarter shots as done in AW.
Howdy Hangtime,
One thing I should probably emphasize right out of the gate is that it certainly isn't my intent to argue that the elimination of the front quarter is in any way realistic. You are bang on in that it is indeed "gamey"...but then so is everything else about these sims. There's far more unreal about AH (or any sim) than there is real. The difference is so great that I've never looked upon any sim I've flown as being anything but a "game" that in no way is realisitic. It may try to incorporate snippets of "realism" to add depth and whatnot, but these are at best just that, snippets. In the end the enjoyment of the game must take precedence and "realism, by definition, can only be an after thought filling in holes that gameplay itself allows for. So I certainly don't disagree with your statement above...handicapping the front quarter is indeed gamey, and that's exactly why I like it. It forces more gameplay (i.e. complex flight maneuvering), which is exactly what I want to pay for.
I spend a lot of time in the FwA8 as well as the Jug. Both of which are of course far worse at maneuvering than a 51 (B or D). So I certainly see where you're coming from insofar as one's ability to work the joust as a staple of ones diet. However I just choose not to even though they are indeed the most available option. I much prefer working for a high deflection or rear aspect shot. You are exactly right as well, it is harder, and I die a lot in the process. But I enjoy that challenge. I also come across, albeit rarely, folks that fly in a similar way. Regardless of outcome, those virual pilots earn a big chunk of my respect when the fight is over. For most that isn't worth a pinch of racoon crap mind you, but I mention it nonetheless. :)
I don't do it to be a HO dweeb,.. I do it to get that initial turn angle and rate advantage the plane I fly so desperately needs to stay in the fight after that 1st merge. In a bogey rich enviornment, the time it takes to work a guys AOT down to a rear quarter shot is all too often the diffrence between success and a nylon letdown. I'll take the close HO merge followed by a 15 degree AON shot any day when flyin in a populated area..
Duels are flown diffrerently than Arena engagements... more time = better options than a HO Hot merge.
I think a big part of the need to take that front quarter shot in a bogey rich environment is an "if I don't, he will" type of motivation. And it is indeed justified based on the model here. Eliminate the front quarter though and that all changes. Nevertheless, I still avoid those shots like the plague here. I prefer to work for the rear aspect shot, and definitely will if its an even odds or better fight.
That isn't what I would call "jousting" though. The joust relaly emphaiszes the unwillingness to tighten up the fight at all: i.e. do a nose to nose merge firing all the way through, extend to a point of guaranteed safety, reverse, rinse, repeat. Never work the vertical, never take the fight in close (heck I burn Spits et al all the time with an A8 by gettig slow and betting on a kill shot in the first quarter turn), never push the envelope taxing both you or your plane. Now I'm not saying you fly one way or another...unfortunatley I really don't know how you do :). Rather that's just the two sides of it as I see it. The most unfortunate part in my mind's eye is that with the front quarter available a vast majority of new pilots to these games learn only the joust, nothing more. To be honest one can't really fault them either...it is the easiest type of air to air combat to learn. Therein lay the rub though...it might be more realisitic or the like, but it just isn't better gameplay imo. As always though, that's just my two bits on it anywhoo.
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Kronos well stated
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Originally posted by Vortex
That isn't what I would call "jousting" though. The joust relaly emphaiszes the unwillingness to tighten up the fight at all: i.e. do a nose to nose merge firing all the way through, extend to a point of guaranteed safety, reverse, rinse, repeat. Never work the vertical, never take the fight in close (heck I burn Spits et al all the time with an A8 by gettig slow and betting on a kill shot in the first quarter turn), never push the envelope taxing both you or your plane. Now I'm not saying you fly one way or another...unfortunatley I really don't know how you do :). Rather that's just the two sides of it as I see it. The most unfortunate part in my mind's eye is that with the front quarter available a vast majority of new pilots to these games learn only the joust, nothing more. To be honest one can't really fault them either...it is the easiest type of air to air combat to learn. Therein lay the rub though...it might be more realisitic or the like, but it just isn't better gameplay imo. As always though, that's just my two bits on it anywhoo.
I really don't see this as a problem. If somebody wants to try HO shots at me all day every day, let them. If we go through a merge and the opponent goes for the HO shot, I can easily avoid it. Not only that, but proper approach to the merge means that I gain angles and E as he overshoots below me post merge. Even if the other plane has a speed avantage and an E advantage at the start of the fight, it doesn't take very many merges like that for me to hold all the cards. My point is that although newer pilots may try the HO, the experienced sticks will slaughter them for trying it. Most folks quickly learn that the HO shot is a bad risk, and they don't use it as much.
Do you really die to head-ons at the merge very often? I almost never do... I can't even remember the last time somebody nailed me in an HO shot at a merge. If you are getting hit in them, it's easy to counter and come out with all the cards. Once you learn to do that, he goes HO and you immelman, and the fights on unless he had a ton more E to start. Maybe it's because I fly the Jug mostly, so most folks don't risk HO'ing that nasty gun set but I see folks try the HO pretty infrequently really. It's far more common for somebody to execute a good lead turn on me than an HO shot.
Just a note, if you are having trouble with the HO's, you'll need to try and merge below your attackers nose, and a bit to one side. Make it so that he has to be diving down to get a HO shot. At about D 1.5 or so, execute a short pull or roll to ensure you stay out of his guns, and by about D300 transition that into a lead turn in the vertical. If he tried to HO you he'll very likely not only miss, but overshoot below you AND have flown straight for longer giving you a big angles advantage. Unless the plane performance matchups are quite extreme (Zeke vs. P-47 for example) and the attacker started with a large E advantage, the fellow trying for the HO shot will hasten his demise greatly.
That said... if you are NOT doing enough to spoil the shot, there are plenty of crack shots here that will take it. If you are willing to fly straight at them and not shoot back... they'll take it. Heck, I'd take it in my Jug. :)
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Originally posted by Lephturn
Do you really die to head-ons at the merge very often? I almost never do... I can't even remember the last time somebody nailed me in an HO shot at a merge. If you are getting hit in them, it's easy to counter and come out with all the cards. Once you learn to do that, he goes HO and you immelman, and the fights on unless he had a ton more E to start. Maybe it's because I fly the Jug mostly, so most folks don't risk HO'ing that nasty gun set but I see folks try the HO pretty infrequently really. It's far more common for somebody to execute a good lead turn on me than an HO shot.
Oh, no, I don't have much of a problem avoiding them, and other than the rare occurance typically don't even take hits from them. This is strictly a pet peeve, albeit a pretty extreme one at that. And one I'll be first to admit I hold in the minority. Call it personal preference more than anything really. I just find the game leaps and bounds more enjoyable when the front quarter is removed as a possible shot area.
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Originally posted by Vortex
I just find the game leaps and bounds more enjoyable when the front quarter is removed as a possible shot area.
Maybe it suits the planes you're flying, but front quarter shots are extremely important in nose to nose turns, where you can turn inside a normally better turning opponent because you're slower and your turn radius is smaller.
Besides, front quarter shots aren't HOs. In a properly executed front quarter pass, you're able to shoot while your opponent can't.
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Basically, DelSys said it well.
If you remove the front quarter shot, you disadvantage the radius fighter over the rate fighter. It basically throws away a third of your ACM... no two circle fights, turning into the bandit becomes a defense all on it's own... yeck. It might be a fun game, but it's not ACM if you remove the front 1/4 shots IMO. Heck it even limits your options at a merge to an extent that I wouldn't enjoy.
Oh well, I guess you enjoyed that limited form of ACM. I can see how it would change things.
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The only HO I dont condone is the one that is repeated to no end.
Some pilots have made HO their only way. See spit d5.0 , it turns to you.. goes for HO. No prob, I would too. Gain a bit separation, spit is d4.5 level, you turn to it, now a bit lower than he is (to keep speed).. spit inmediately loops up and dives in for the HO.
Repeat till HO suceeds. They dont try nothing else. Not even when they get 5k alt advantage or more.
The great majority are newbies who only know how to turn hard and spray until they get a kill.. and this jousting syndrome is so effective on a spit and the n1k that many times its the only thing you get. Sadly, the arena is full of spits and n1ks too :(
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Originally posted by deSelys
Maybe it suits the planes you're flying, but front quarter shots are extremely important in nose to nose turns, where you can turn inside a normally better turning opponent because you're slower and your turn radius is smaller.
Besides, front quarter shots aren't HOs. In a properly executed front quarter pass, you're able to shoot while your opponent can't.
I fly stallfighters and B&Z planes alike...Fw's and Jug's for the E-fighting mostly and Hurri's and Yak9T's for stallfighting...for the most part anyway. I manage to get kills while working for the rear aspect shots with any of these. Its very doable. At the same time I also get popped by the front aspect shot I miss or don't see coming.
The limit to ACM that Leph mentions really doesn't happen, nor do you in any way lose the two circle fight. At least that defintiely wasn't my experience. After all, you're just talking about a low angle snap shot, nothing more. A two circle fight certainly isn't required for that. I used to do it all the time in AW flying the Jug exclusively. I don't know if you've ever tried the AW Jug back then (early-mid 90's), but there is no comparisson in AH insofar as radius fighters go. Take the biggest pig here, multiply its deficiencies by a factor of ten, then strap a piano onto its butt and you've got the AW Jug. It took work and patience (and there's the reward) but I used to get lots of kills in that without any front quarter shot available. In the end though, the two circle was far from removed. It was enhanced if anything, you just couldn't get sloppy like you can here.
Indeed you do limit one small aspect of the envelope but if you're depending on that to get your kills you're simply limiting yourself and your abilities. I've certainly never needed em and from where I sit I pretty much completely suck at this game. Allowing them opens up the dark side of the front quarter though, and Tac outlines it quite well in his post. Granted, as you guys mention in certain situations the front quarter may be a viable option (i.e. not a joust in this case). Its hardly a fundamental aspect of ACM though. Its a snap shot at a reduced angle, nothing more dramatic than that. I've just never seen it as needed when it comes with such huge baggage; open up that angle and you also allow for, and encourage, the joust. That's where the cost outweighs any possible benefits imo.
Just to be clear here too, I'll be the first to admit that this is a part of sims now and isn't going anywhere. I'm defintely not on any crusade to change anything. That would just be a waste of everyone's time, most improtantly my own. When the joust warrior format finally irks me enough, which it invariably does, I'll just move on. Defintely not a biggy. In the interim though that doesn't mean I have to like it or agree with claims that its some sort of venerable tactic. The joust is still kinda cheezy imo. ;)
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Yep, joust is kinda cheezy.. mostly because it's a bad risk and both die a lot of the time. The way I see it though, you only get a joust of you both take the shot. I almost never take the shot, I jink and use it to gain advantage. The instant you do that, your into a good ACM fight in my books. It's like tango to me, it takes two. If I avoid and counter, there is no joust IMHO.
Honestly, the HO bugged me a LOT when I first came to WB way back when. Then, a wise man (Worr) taught me how to deal with it, and I've never had a problem since. The first rule is, if you fire at him, your an easy target. Once you get past that, it's as simple as evading at D1.4 or so and then doing a vertical lead turn from slightly below him. Once I understood that, my frustration went away and I got into the real meat and potatoes of ACM.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. :) If you ever feel like you want to work on countering HO merges, feel free to email and we'll hook up for some training. Although it sounds like you can handle your ACM just fine, I thought I'd offer just in case. That goes for those reading this as well.
Though Vortex I don't think you really need this, I want to post an article I put together about countering the HO effectively for others that are reading and may be interested. It can be found here: http://lephturn.webhop.net/hodefense.htm
I really need to re-write that, and only the first third is about the HO really, but it's good advice. :)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Kronos.. win. Anything that gets you the advantage and gets the other guy into a parachute or a dirt nap is good 'ACM'.
Folks get 'duel' mentality confused with 'Arena' mentality. If the guy with a better T&B plane thinks yer a turd fer blasting him into confetti when he slides off the rope a dope or lines up a HO, just smile. Yer a live turd, he's a dead duck.
Personally, I never pass up a HO shot.. he can break, trade rounds or ram. I already made my choice, and I ain't 'chicken'.. I'll take the fediddlekin shot if thats what he wants, or he can dodge... but that's just me... I just don't give a damn about scores and a fresh plane is only 1 second away.
If the duck wants a fair fight he better stay the hell off the pond during hunting season. I love it when the ducks quack after they get smacked.. means yah did the job just right. ;)
The DA is for 'fair fights'. The CT and the MA are about getting an adavantage, holding it, whuppin up on the guy severely while you hold the advantage, and gettin the hell outta dodge when yah don't.
'Never turn to engage. Turn to kill.' Capt. Willie Driscoll, USN
hangtime, what is this bible of truth and wisdom you keep quoting from? :D Ive checked all the bookstores but it seems only you have access to the 'book of truth' :) hehe
seriously hangtime is dead right.DA for fair stuff.If you dont want to get shot while landing, fly to another safer base.Dont want to be bounced by higher con? fly higher.Dont like Ho's? avoid em'!.
its really that simple.
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Aye Lephturn, agreeing to disagree isn't at all a bad thing :). As well, thanks for the offer and the link. As mentioned earlier I usually don't have much trouble avoiding those HO shots, nevertheless that doesn't mean there won't be some pointers there that come in handy. I'll certainly have a look over it.
You may well be right too in that with time these things pass. Jousting for me is like most pet peeves...it doesn't have to do anything to me directly for it to get under my skin. Just the fact someone is trying it usually is sufficient Hehe, a bit silly, I know, but then we all have our little quirks . Again, perhaps this feeling will indeed change in time. Here's hoping!