Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on July 01, 2020, 09:15:47 PM
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Thanks to Devil505, Oboe, and Perdue3 for feeback on the color scheme.
Maj. George E. Preddy, Jr.
P-51B-10-NA “Cripes A'Mighty" (HO*P)
S/N 42-106451
352nd FG, 393rd FS
June 1944
This P-51B-10-NA (s/n 42-106451) of the 352nd FG, 487th FS named "Cripes A'Mighty" and coded HO*P was the first of three Mustangs flown by Maj. George E. Preddy, Jr. He scored 5.833 victories in this aircraft on his way to becoming the top P-51 ace of all time. Preddy logged 143 combat missions in P-40s, P-47s, and P-51s in both the Pacific and European theaters with a total of 26.833 aerial victories and 5 strafing credits. His exploits are well-chronicled.
While the Commanding Officer of the 328th Fighter Squadron he was killed in a P-51D on 25 December 1944 by friendly ground fire. His decorations include the Air Medal with 6 oak leaf clusters (1 silver, 1 bronze), the American Campaign Medal, the American Defense Medal, the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal, the Distinguished Service Cross, the Purple Heart, the Silver Star with 1 oak leaf cluster, the World War II Victory Medal, the Croix de Guerre (Belgian), the Distinguished Flying Cross with 6 oak leaf clusters, and the European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal with 4 bronze stars.
This particular aircraft was transferred to Lt. Carl Tafel of the 487th FS and re-coded HO*R. It was lost due to mechanical failure near Munich, Germany on 16 July 1944 while being flown by Jule V. Conrad. He bailed out and was taken as a Prisoner of War.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32704)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32706)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32702)
Offline Gallery:
(https://i.postimg.cc/F7ytWCXp/MODahss43a.png) (https://postimg.cc/F7ytWCXp) (https://i.postimg.cc/cvhpZKH8/MODahss46.png) (https://postimg.cc/cvhpZKH8) (https://i.postimg.cc/87N2qd1S/MODahss55.png) (https://postimg.cc/87N2qd1S)
And all juvenile, passive aggressive haters that just can't bear to say anything nice about my work can pound it. I don't need your validation. : )
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The blue here is an improvement, but to me it still looks too bold. Maybe Oboe and give you the RGB of the blue he used in the final version of his P-38 "My Little Pig". I think that blue would be perfect for this.
Other than the blue, it looks damn near perfect.
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(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32711)
:headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:
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Ok, let's have a look.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32711)
Now ask yourself, which blue looks closer to this?
Oboe's
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400453.0;attach=32620)
Or yours
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32702)
While neither is a dead on match, Oboe's is closer in brightness and saturation to your reference photo.
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Ok, let's have a look.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32711)
Now ask yourself, which blue looks closer to this?
Oboe's
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400453.0;attach=32620)
Or yours
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32702)
While neither is a dead on match, Oboe's is closer in brightness and saturation to your reference photo.
And is a completely different tone/shade.
Your original comment was about too much boldness. My color is not as bold as the photo. :bhead :headscratch:
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My color is not as bold as the photo.
Yours is bolder than the photo.
To better match the tone of the blue in the photo you need to reduced the boldness of your blue by lowering its saturation and shifting the hue toward indigo slightly.
But the color balance of that photo also looks like it's shifted to the blue side also. So to me the true color is probably needs less hue shifting towards indigo than what is needed to match the photo.
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Yours is bolder than the photo.
To better match the tone of the blue in the photo you need to reduced the boldness of your blue by lowering its saturation and shifting the hue toward indigo slightly.
But the color balance of that photo also looks like it's shifted to the blue side also. So to me the true color is probably needs less hue shifting towards indigo than what is needed to match the photo.
That (mime) is NOT bold. It’s PALE.
How do you describe that as BOLD?
Or this? If mine is bold then this is, too.
(https://i.imgur.com/nbRnim4h.jpg)
I’m more than willing to make adjustments but unless we speak the same lingo then I’m going to remain confused.
The paint is solid and somewhat faded. If I keep desaturating it then it will turn gray.
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:aok
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:aok
You’re an army of one, bro. :salute
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That is NOT bold. It’s PALE.
How do you describe that as BOLD?
Or this?
(https://i.imgur.com/nbRnim4h.jpg)
I’m more than willing to make adjustments but unless we speak the same lingo then I’m going to remain confused.
Paleness would describe a color that is both too light and not saturated enough. To correct a color that is too pale you would need to both darken it and add more color. Your blue has the opposite problem - it is not pale enough. Lightness is damn close, but the color is too saturated.
I'm not trying to be a hard ass. I think you are really close to having a truly superb skin. I'm just trying to push you into achieving it.
:salute
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Paleness would describe a color that is both too light and not saturated enough. To correct a color that is too pale you would need to both darken it and add more color. Your blue has the opposite problem - it is not pale enough. Lightness is damn close, but the color is too saturated.
I'm not trying to be a hard ass. I think you are really close to having a truly superb skin. I'm just trying to push you into achieving it.
:salute
That’s what I pay you for... :neener:
Let me go take another look...
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Crap! I just wrote out a wall of text but it didn't make it for some reason. Just the highlights of what I thought I posted:
1) no problem here with the blue - it seems within the range of values Ive seen for 352nd noses (I'm including WWII color photos, color profiles, paintings, restored warbirds, etc.). I don't include Snoots Sniper in that list because the Sniper seems to be a outlier toward the dark end.
2) discussions of the color of the blue aren't hard to find - we arent the only group that differs in opinion. I'm beginning to think in real life, there may have been more than one blue used.
3) you could vary it a little - fade (desaturate and lighten) or add chipping along panel lines, add noise to the layer, add dirt variations per Greebo's excellent build log (but keep it subtle)
4) I have question about the 'O' and 'P' partially within the white DDay stripes - these would've been typically repainted after the white stripe had been applied, or sometimes the white stripe had cutouts around the letters. Also, with the profiles I've seen, the aircraft ID letter for the 352nd birds was on tail only and not reproduced on the fuselage behind the star...
5) I can get my RGB vallues but it would be more accurate if you just grabbed the screenshot and opened it in your graphics program and used the color sampler tool to find the RGB values. The RGB is only the starting value and the result is modified by weathering and opacity settings, etc.
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Here's one to make me eat my words - WWII color and they all look dark like Snoots Sniper
(https://i.imgur.com/2iV79wt.jpg)
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The photo of the airplane after it was reassigned shows the letter on the tail. I never considered that it might be an R, HOWEVER, the HOP on the fuselage is partially painted over with some bleed through.
I do have noise but this is a balancing act as it causes all the nose seams to flare up pretty badly. Also the paint on the nose looks pretty solid so I didn't chip the paint there.
What else?
I forgot all the points you made. Lol
Oh, blue shade. I know for a fact that multiple shades of blue were used. DOPEY OKIE is an example of this as the panel for the nose art was not repainted when the rest of the nose was and you can tell it is vastly different. There is some history behind this online somewhere. A guy has a metal model (or something like that) from the war that was done with the group's paint.
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/dopie-1-jpg.121853/
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/dopie-1-jpg.121853/)
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4) I have question about the 'O' and 'P' partially within the white DDay stripes - these would've been typically repainted after the white stripe had been applied, or sometimes the white stripe had cutouts around the letters. Also, with the profiles I've seen, the aircraft ID letter for the 352nd birds was on tail only and not reproduced on the fuselage behind the star...
Here is the reference photo provided by Perdweeb
(https://www.starduststudios.com/uploads/1/8/3/4/18340833/cripes-a-mighty-p-51b_orig.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/UaDAv14h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SwNZ8POh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dfyL3t4h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZyuxtQlh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VbWfDL2h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uU3kfkmh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cbtAyQih.jpg)
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Boy she's one beat up ship. I don't think its an 'R', IIRC Preddy's aircraft were always a 'P'?
I know what you mean about noise. There does seem to be some fading on the panel section just forward of the wind screen? The blue seems lighter there.
Seeing the photo, I think the portions of your 'O' and 'P' covered by the white stripe are too regular and well-defined - that is, it appears we can se too much of the perfect shape of the letters covered by the white stripe. Not sure what to advise - maybe try a little blurring of the portion of the letters under the stripe? Lightly erase variable portions of the letters so it doesn't show through the white stripe so cleanly? subtle streaks/smudges so the edges aren't so regular? Just brainstorming here.
Here's a sample of the dirty white texture I used for my P-39Q and for the white on Down for Double - use it if you want; the grunge seems to help:
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32713)
You may want to lighten that 'P' on tail as well - I usually end up with markings layer items being 85-90% opacity rather than 100%. It helps tone the image down a little, and allows any panel lines that cut through the image to show up a little better.
Fantastic stuff, lyric. That blue really fades.
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(https://i.imgur.com/TMH3gIdh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VDEGY36h.jpg)
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I've made this montage of the relevant sections of the blue nose photos in his thread together with a screenshot of Vraciu's skin. I left out "Barbara M IV" as the colour balance seems to be off in that photo. Going over all these blues with a colour picker there is a huge variation dependent on the amount of paint fade as well as the lighting level and angle of each photo. However all the photos show a fairly consistent relationship of red to green to blue, with a bit less of the red and a bit more of the blue compared to the green. Vraciu's colour also has this balance but spread out to a much greater degree, so a lot less red and a lot more blue than the green. So on the basis of this have to I agree with Devil and say the blue on the skin is too saturated.
I don't think it unlikely that Preddy's HO-P was re-lettered to HO-R when the plane changed ownership. It's even possible that the "P" was "retired" in the same way a ex-star player's number can be in a team. I agree that the parts of the squadron letters hidden below the D Day stripes are too clearly visible on the skin. Partially erasing these with a small diameter eraser tool to create a "brushed over" effect would work although I prefer to use a non-destructive method like a mask to do this sort of thing, it is just easier to edit later.
It's a great skin though Vraciu, well done.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32714)
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I'll tweak the blue and fade the lettering some more.
Source material says the code was changed from P to R after Preddy handed it over. The source photos after the handover still shows the victory board and a tail letter. I just assumed it was still a P but it may be R.
(https://i.imgur.com/nbRnim4h.jpg)
I was using the opacity method for letters (paint) but then was told not to so I recently quit. I'll go back to it.
Thanks everyone for the feedback and photos. After staring at a screen all day one can have trouble seeing this kind of stuff. Walking away from it for a bit sometimes freshens the eye. :salute
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Its a great-looking skin V. Agree with walking away and looking later with a fresh eye. I have to do that with every skin. I also miss details and errors until I post screenshots - then and only then do I see them.
Boy that blue is all over the map - and I didn't realize the paint would fade so much in the ETO, as compared to the CBI or North Africa - but there is some real fading evident in those photos. I imagine the quality of paint they used wasn't so great compared to what we have today.
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Its a great-looking skin V. Agree with walking away and looking later with a fresh eye. I have to do that with every skin. I also miss details and errors until I post screenshots - then and only then do I see them.
Boy that blue is all over the map - and I didn't realize the paint would fade so much in the ETO, as compared to the CBI or North Africa - but there is some real fading evident in those photos. I imagine the quality of paint they used wasn't so great compared to what we have today.
Thanks, man.
Yeah, the color photos are eye-opening. Amazing.
I know that with modern natural metal finish warbirds they actually etch the metal before painting so it won't erode. That's how they get away with it lasting so long.
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(https://i.imgur.com/TMH3gIdh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VDEGY36h.jpg)
Hey! What's the Hairless Joe 56th M Jug doing in that lineup? :D
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You’re an army of one, bro. :salute
Add me to the mix. I like it. How long would dark blue stay dark? And from the pics the ship had seen considerable action. I'm not a skinner by a long shot. Pretty sure the blue or any color would fade over time from the weather, sunlight and the elements. That ain't Sherwin Williams house paint! :D
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I'm pretty sure in one of the previous 352nd discussions there was a pretty solid reference to their use of two distinct blue paints. There was a medium blue used at first - this is the shade that V is going for here. Sometime in autumn of 1944, they switched to a much darker blue.
First blue
(https://i.imgur.com/UaDAv14h.jpg)
Second blue
(https://i.imgur.com/dfyL3t4h.jpg)
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Very interesting - that explains it Devil505, thanks.
btw back at my workstation now, here is a swatch from "My Little Pig"s spinners. The RGB values are 69/95/114:
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32720)
The original base color I started with is 42/77/103:
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32721)
These I think have too much green for the 352nd's blue noses.
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Very interesting - that explains it Devil505, thanks.
btw back at my workstation now, here is a swatch from "My Little Pig"s spinners. The RGB values are 69/95/114:
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32720)
Yeah, I figured the swatch would look strange when viewed by itself. The game's lighting really requires starting with dull colors to make them look right in the end.
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Here's a detail from CyberModeler Online's ANA Color Chart. What are the chances these are the two blues used by the 352nd? The dark one seems to dark to me, there's not much room to desaturate before you hit black. 'Course as you say, it looks different under the game's lighting.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32722)
EDIT: One last thing - look at these blues in the email I just got from Zillow about homes for sale in my area:
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32723)
Strange coincidence. I’ll probably be noticing blues all day long now.
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Okay, that's funny right there. :rofl
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Here's a detail from CyberModeler Online's ANA Color Chart. What are the chances these are the two blues used by the 352nd? The dark one seems to dark to me, there's not much room to desaturate before you hit black. 'Course as you say, it looks different under the game's lighting.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32722)
EDIT: One last thing - look at these blues in the email I just got from Zillow about homes for sale in my area:
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32723)
Strange coincidence. I’ll probably be noticing blues all day long now.
Haha, that's funny.
I don't think Insignia Blue is the darker shade they used.
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As an aside, here are a few other examples of how dark and dull the base colors need to be.
This is the shade of yellow I use for German planes. It represents RLM 04.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBztBB1t/RLM-04.png) (https://postimages.org/)
You can see how it looks in game on the tail of this 109.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjrJCPVh/Hackl_2.png) (https://postimg.cc/CnTS8X6M)
And this is the red is used for the Soviet star insignia.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBk1RdNw/Soviet-Red.png) (https://postimages.org/)
And here is how it looks in game on this P-40
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjhPTFzv/Winter_P-40C_2.png) (https://postimg.cc/bDLSX7kK)
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Good stuff. Check your email. I sent my blue for you to look at. I haven't further desaturated it since the screenshots above, but I have now tweaked it below...
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Here's some more work on the blue and the bleed-through lettering...
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32725)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32727)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32729)
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:rofl
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Blue nose blue zoomed with noise layers visible.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32731)
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Now that looks great.
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So go with it?
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Yeah. you nailed it.
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Yeah. you nailed it.
Thanks for the help.
Too bad I didn't nail it for the first impression.
Maybe one of these days...
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Looks great Vraciu, let me know when you've submitted it.
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Looks great Vraciu, let me know when you've submitted it.
Thanks. Working on it right now. Give me about ten mins.
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Add me to the mix. I like it. How long would dark blue stay dark? And from the pics the ship had seen considerable action. I'm not a skinner by a long shot. Pretty sure the blue or any color would fade over time from the weather, sunlight and the elements. That ain't Sherwin Williams house paint! :D
Thanks, bro.
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Seeing this go from the first pic to the last is pretty cool. You go it perfect in the end. Thanks for that.
One question I do have is the rudder. Is it fabric?
:cheers:
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Seeing this go from the first pic to the last is pretty cool. You go it perfect in the end. Thanks for that.
One question I do have is the rudder. Is it fabric?
:cheers:
Thanks, brother. Glad you like it. Hopefully you'll enjoy flying it.
Yes the rudder is fabric. Elevators were also fabric until the D-25 came out. Some examples of earlier versions were retrofitted later but I don't have access to any list which tells us that information.
There are a number of photos online that show the stark contrast between the rudder and the stabilizer. The rudder is usually painted before installation because it has to be balanced for aerodynamic reasons. Once it got into the field all bets were off.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32740)
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Cool. I do not like flying P-51's for obvious reasons. But, when I do, I fly Preddy.
Thanks for taking the time to perfect it.
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Cool. I do not like flying P-51's for obvious reasons. But, when I do, I fly Preddy.
Thanks for taking the time to perfect it.
Glad to do it. You're most welcome. :salute
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I'll tweak the blue and fade the lettering some more.
Source material says the code was changed from P to R after Preddy handed it over. The source photos after the handover still shows the victory board and a tail letter. I just assumed it was still a P but it may be R.
(https://i.imgur.com/nbRnim4h.jpg)
I was using the opacity method for letters (paint) but then was told not to so I recently quit. I'll go back to it.
Thanks everyone for the feedback and photos. After staring at a screen all day one can have trouble seeing this kind of stuff. Walking away from it for a bit sometimes freshens the eye. :salute
Its amazing what you find when your not looking for it.
Same image with different results.
(https://i.imgur.com/a4h0qdIh.jpg)
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Hey! What's the Hairless Joe 56th M Jug doing in that lineup? :D
No idea?
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I've made this montage of the relevant sections of the blue nose photos in his thread together with a screenshot of Vraciu's skin. I left out "Barbara M IV" as the colour balance seems to be off in that photo. Going over all these blues with a colour picker there is a huge variation dependent on the amount of paint fade as well as the lighting level and angle of each photo. However all the photos show a fairly consistent relationship of red to green to blue, with a bit less of the red and a bit more of the blue compared to the green. Vraciu's colour also has this balance but spread out to a much greater degree, so a lot less red and a lot more blue than the green. So on the basis of this have to I agree with Devil and say the blue on the skin is too saturated.
I don't think it unlikely that Preddy's HO-P was re-lettered to HO-R when the plane changed ownership. It's even possible that the "P" was "retired" in the same way a ex-star player's number can be in a team. I agree that the parts of the squadron letters hidden below the D Day stripes are too clearly visible on the skin. Partially erasing these with a small diameter eraser tool to create a "brushed over" effect would work although I prefer to use a non-destructive method like a mask to do this sort of thing, it is just easier to edit later.
It's a great skin though Vraciu, well done.
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400552.0;attach=32714)
Will throw this colour image into the mix.
(https://i.imgur.com/LtU4ez4h.jpg)
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Its amazing what you find when your not looking for it.
Same image with different results.
(https://i.imgur.com/a4h0qdIh.jpg)
What a difference some exposure makes. WOW.
Thanks, Lyric.
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No idea?
Did some looking around. That wasn't an M Jug in the picture it was the P-47D-25 of Col David Shilling after taking the CO position of the 56th after Zemke went on to lead a 38 Squdron.
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Did some looking around. That wasn't an M Jug in the picture it was the P-47D-25 of Col David Shilling after taking the CO position of the 56th after Zemke went on to lead a 38 Squdron.
Zemke's Lightning is on the far right, end of second row.
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,398952.msg5288189.html#msg5288189
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this mf my new daily for sure :airplane:
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this mf my new daily for sure :airplane:
Thanks, man. I updated it and posted mid-thread:
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,400552.msg5308873.html#msg5308873
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this mf my new daily for sure :airplane:
I'll be watching for ya in my updated Jandina II. :D
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Thanks, man. I updated it and posted mid-thread:
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,400552.msg5308873.html#msg5308873
yeah man it looks sweet, def one the best skins to come around!
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See rule #4
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See rule #4
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That is kind of a childish, classless thing to say.
Yeah, well, it's a lot nicer (and funnier) than what was said about me, but thanks for your input any way. :cheers:
It's a[n inside] joke. In the immortal words of Sergeant Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis." :D
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Yeah, well, it's a lot nicer (and funnier) than what was said about me, but thanks for your input any way. :cheers:
It's a[n inside] joke. In the immortal words of Sergeant Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis." :D
I'd still argue the old stoop idiom. Just because you may be faced with classlessness, does not mean you need match it. But, you do you.
I only said something because I did not see either of them say anything in this thread. Therefore I question their mentioning.