Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: ghostdancer on October 03, 2009, 06:58:02 AM
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Off to Europe this morning and Frame 2 and Frame 3 objectives have been sent out to all command staff and Daddog will be monitoring and tweaking things while I am gone.
Here are some quick stats on the air to air fighting:
RAF Kills
63 - Bf 109E-4s (139 109s fielded, lost rate of 45%)
17 - Bf 110C-4bs (39 110s fielded, lost rate of 44%)
09 - Ju 87D-3s (17 Ju87s fielded, lost rate of 53%)
21 - Ju 88A-4s (231 Ju88s, 77 formations, fielded, lost rate of 9%)
RAF shot down 110 enemy planes
LW Kills
80 - Hurricane Mk Is (125 Hurricanes fielded, lost rate of 64%)
40 - Spitfires Mk Is (104 Spitfires fielded, lost rate of 38%)
LW show down 120 enemy planes
Don't have time to dig into the bombing results.
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The Axis plan worked wonderfully. The proof is in the loss rate of the JU-88's. WTG Axis fighters. <S> All that flew. It was a great fight.
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The proof is in the loss rate of the JU-88's.
Sorry we had BB guns, 303's are for rabbits not 88 :rofl
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<S> JG2 for their CAP over A8. We didn't see a Spit or Hurri the whole trip.
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It was a marvelous sight over A18, nothing but spitfires and hurricanes but they were already bogged down when we spotted the 88s overhead with nothing but clear skies. :aok
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JG11 :salute
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We had a great time riding with JG2. :salute. Thanks for ride Chappy.
On the way home from a8 i saw Stampf put his ju88 on the ground, possibly a POW now. Hope he finds his way home... :salute
Well done JG11,JG2, and Helcat fighter Group.. :rock
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Sorry we had BB guns, 303's are for rabbits not 88 :rofl
Your not kidding about that. I had a Hurr on one of my Ju88 drone. Poor guy must have spent all his ammo to get the kill and no luck. Another squdi had five spits all over him. They could not get any kills. I don't know how Jerrie pull it off in the real BoB.
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Your not kidding about that. I had a Hurr on one of my Ju88 drone. Poor guy must have spent all his ammo to get the kill and no luck. Another squdi had five spits all over him. They could not get any kills. I don't know how Jerrie pull it off in the real BoB.
You do realize you're talking about how weak British 303s are and then wondering how "Jerry" the Germans pulled it off don't you?
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You do realize you're talking about how weak British 303s are and then wondering how "Jerry" the Germans pulled it off don't you?
Got it back wards, shifty. thanks for pointing that out.
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Tommy was the word you were looking for then. :aok
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Tommy was the word you were looking for then. :aok
Yes. i was thinking tommy but put jerry down with out thinking about what i did. How did your squ do in the FSO?
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Your not kidding about that. I had a Hurr on one of my Ju88 drone. Poor guy must have spent all his ammo to get the kill and no luck. Another squdi had five spits all over him. They could not get any kills...
That was the Rolling Thunder. At one point I was drifiting in and out of the bomber stream, untouched by escorts. Unfortunately I might as well have leaned out the window to use spitwads. We chased the group of Ju-88's that hit A21 clear out into the channel. 5 Spitfires popping all their ammo into those planes. Didn't even see any fuel leaks or oil lost. It was quite a sad sight. It wasn't even that we were attacking multiple formations, we made the call to focus on ONE bomber flight, and still couldn't manage to put him down. Must have been a real nail biting flight for the pilot of those Ju-88's for sure!
<S> Good job on getting em home. Stop using the "Steel" hax! It's no fun for us! :D
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Great fight guys :aok It was my squads (VMF-214 BlackSheep) first FSO and we had a blast and hopefully we will bring more of our squaddies in from the main arena for next Friday to share in the fun.
I had 1 question that I was curious about. I got into a dogfight in my Hurricane over A25 with a Ju-88. I have to say I've never seen anybody dogfight an 88 before and was very impressed. I was hoping to find the pilot to give him a big Salute it was a fine job. I ran out of ammo and had to rtb.
Great job on FSO guys :salute
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That was the Rolling Thunder. At one point I was drifiting in and out of the bomber stream, untouched by escorts. Unfortunately I might as well have leaned out the window to use spitwads. We chased the group of Ju-88's that hit A21 clear out into the channel. 5 Spitfires popping all their ammo into those planes. Didn't even see any fuel leaks or oil lost. It was quite a sad sight. It wasn't even that we were attacking multiple formations, we made the call to focus on ONE bomber flight, and still couldn't manage to put him down. Must have been a real nail biting flight for the pilot of those Ju-88's for sure!
<S> Good job on getting em home. Stop using the "Steel" hax! It's no fun for us! :D
LOL, that was Larry or Flatiron that you guys where trying to get. I was surprise how much beating them 88 took. I had two Hurr that HO me, one of them collided into mer. It was a good effort on that one hurr but nothing happen. Surely one of you got a kill?
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Yes. i was thinking tommy but put jerry down with out thinking about what i did. How did your squ do in the FSO?
We've had better nights. :D
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Yeah, it was a tough night for us Allied guys. Tougher for some who don't fly EW birds much and think they can spray the .303's from 400 like they were .50cal MW/LW rides. Key is to get in 200 and then concentrate fire on one point, preferable not the fuselage. It's tough enough to do that against faster planes - most in the game are faster than the British Mk1 birds. Tougher yet against any bomber that shoots back.
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We had a great time riding with JG2. :salute. Thanks for ride Chappy.
On the way home from a8 i saw Stampf put his ju88 on the ground, possibly a POW now. Hope he finds his way home... :salute
Well done JG11,JG2, and Helcat fighter Group.. :rock
The last report JG11 got from Herr Stampf was,he'd found a toothless farm girl and he'd make his way to the channel in do time...... :D
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One thing you have to remember is that the damage model in some ways gives an artificial bias in favor of cannon-armed planes.
In a real aircraft there's all sorts of little things that those .303s can tear up: skin, control surfaces, fuel and oil lines, cylinder heads, oil/fuel pumps, control lines, etc. etc. etc. Sure, that Hurricane might not crack the main spar, but your wing isn't going to generate much lift when its airfoil has been shredded (watching a plane tumble out of the air because its wing just can't provide sufficient lift anymore is one of the few enjoyable parts of Il-2).
However in the game parts are either there or they aren't. There's no "half way." This means that cannon, which can take parts off completely with relatively few hits, gain an advantage under our damage modeling beyond what they would have historically.
Someone suggesting allowing the Allies access to limited numbers of Spit Vs--present in limited numbers later in the battle--and I wonder if that might be a good idea after seeing the results of this frame. A handful of cannon-armed Vs will help offset the significant lack of firepower on the Allied side.
Another option may be to remove formations from the Ju-88s.
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Was the Spit V involved at the time?
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I think someone posted the V appeared later in the battle.
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If it was there historically, then it should be there in the game. If it was not there, then it should not be there. :salute
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Neg on the Spit V. It entered service in Feb 1941, some 4 months after the Battle of Britain.
Whats the big issue with the frame results? the LW had 40 more players and only shot down 10 more a/c? whats the big panic all about? Maybe have a look at the logs. Sure some squads had rough nights, on both sides, and some hade great nights, on both sides. The LW lost 112 a/c to the 303cal armed fighters.
...I have said this a few times before, and I will repeat it. The problem is often players who are too used to flying MA 1944 rides that have batteries of cannon and/or heavy MGs. This is a 1940 setup. Not 1944. The 8 x 303s will do fine if used properly. You dont fire at 400 yards, thats too far. You have the conv set to 200-250, and you fire when you have a target. They do just fine.
The 109E-4 has some drawbacks as well, with only 60 rpg in the cannon drums, 2 short bursts and you are out, and all thats left is the 2 x 30s in the nose, and thats it. Hardly wopping firepower. That and the ballistics of the MG-FF cannons are terrible.
Bottom line is FSO represents different times of the war, and this is Early War, with Early War armament. Thems the breaks. After the BoB, the RAF switched to cannons, in 1941, largely as a result of the complaints of hitting power with just machine guns, so thats also part of the experience, you get a sense of the type of combats fought. Enjoy it for what it is, and when the next 1945 setup rolls around, you can revel in the better armament, only, your enemies will have it too.
:salute
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The only thing that could possibly be missing from the British AF standpoint for the time period specified in this FSO (August 1940) is maybe the Spitfire Mk1B...but the cannons jammed really bad so you would be left with only 4 machine guns.
The 109E4 doesn't have a big armament advantage...the MG/FF (Ikaria 20mm machine gun) had a slow rate of fire and a slow muzzle velocity...you gotta be at D3 or closer to make them do much damage without running out of ammo on the first go. With only 2 MG17 7.9mm machine guns in the nose...not a powerful gun platform.
The Allies did pretty well this frame. We Luftwaffe flyers will be better prepared next frame...so enjoy the little light you got now. :D
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Your not kidding about that. I had a Hurr on one of my Ju88 drone. Poor guy must have spent all his ammo to get the kill and no luck. Another squdi had five spits all over him. They could not get any kills. I don't know how Jerrie pull it off in the real BoB.
That's why the Hurri IIC upgraded to 4 20mm.......
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That's why the Hurri IIC upgraded to 4 20mm.......
I quesion if the spit II and Hurr II saw action later in BoB. The answer was no.
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From what I have read the Ju88 suffered the most losses from July to October out of the main 3 German Bombers. (He111, Do17, Ju88) That stat (like a few others) just doesn't seem to translate into all Aces High Special Events.
I'm not complaining, In fact I am going to do my best to change that in Frame 2. ;)
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Whats the big issue with the frame results? the LW had 40 more players and only shot down 10 more a/c? whats the big panic all about? Maybe have a look at the logs. Sure some squads had rough nights, on both sides, and some hade great nights, on both sides. The LW lost 112 a/c to the 303cal armed fighters.
...I have said this a few times before, and I will repeat it. The problem is often players who are too used to flying MA 1944 rides that have batteries of cannon and/or heavy MGs. This is a 1940 setup. Not 1944. The 8 x 303s will do fine if used properly. You dont fire at 400 yards, thats too far. You have the conv set to 200-250, and you fire when you have a target. They do just fine.
The 109E-4 has some drawbacks as well, with only 60 rpg in the cannon drums, 2 short bursts and you are out, and all thats left is the 2 x 30s in the nose, and thats it. Hardly wopping firepower. That and the ballistics of the MG-FF cannons are terrible.
It really just depends on what the goal of running the frame is.
Sure, the LW had 40 more pilots and only shot down 10 more A/C, but they also scored points in a massive way for bombing raids. All the Rolling Thunder were directed and advised to use a convergence of 200yds after many of our pilots did some extensive testing. And it worked great against fighters. However you can't sit at 200yrds attacking a bomber in ANY direction or you become paste on a plane.
I haven't seen the total roundabout scores, but I have a feeling it'll be severely lopsided towards the axis due to the bombing results. I think the only problem most of the allied pilots feel, is that they don't have a fighting chance to win. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be. But perhaps a swing in points could be worked out. Getting full points for the allied side for every A/C returned safely for example. The RAF was desperately short on A/C's during the Battle of Britain, and this emphasizes that. Because the allies can't bomb anything, they need a way to neutralize those bombing points. Or perhaps make hangers worth less, or shooting down the Ju-88's worth more. If our guys are going to give our lives trying to down those monstrous behemoths with nothing more than .303's, then at least make the risk worth it.
Not trying to dump on your parade and setup by any means, because I had a great time regardless of the results. Just offering input, cause I'm sure if the roles were reversed and the axis pilots were flying allied, they'd have the same concerns. I've flown in many BoB setups, and this seems to be the case in almost every one.
Oh, something else for the setup crew....though the allied pilots will probably flip me the *finger* and scream obscenities at me....
This was mentioned in our debriefing, and I've actually seen it done before in the S3 and it was incredibly fun.
The British were on a short leash and didn't usually have time to up their planes on any kind of notice. In fact, they'd usually have a fighting climb most of the way to protect their airfields.
Perhaps in a future setup or frame, make most of the British pilots sit on runway waiting to hear notice from the radar dudes. Once the Darbar goes off, and contact is confirmed, pilots scramble and climb to engage the incoming threat.
<S> to the Setup and CM team. Doing a wonderful job and many of our guys appreciate the hard work and effort you put into the FSO.
Chapel
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I quesion if the spit II and Hurr II saw action later in BoB. The answer was no.
Well we don't have the Spit MK II in AH. There Hurricane Mk II A Series 1 was operational in Sept 1940, the A series 2 became operational in October 1940.
However both of these aircraft were still armed with 8 303 MGs not 4x 20mm cannon like the AH Mk IIC which didn't begin production until early 1941.
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A51 wasn't even scratched. The Ju88s that were assigned to hit it didn't do so well: we shot them all down. :)
Btw, if you're having trouble with the .303s, bring your convergence back to a range that seems silly and unreasonable, like 175 yards. All of my kills on Friday took one good squirt of .303s. Even the Ju-88 I shot down popped when the .303s hit at the same point. :aok
As for the results, they're no big deal. I doubt that in the real BoB RAF Hurricane pilots went on sweeps toward France looking for 109s to fight with.
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If I understand correctly the purpose of these re-inactments is to see that, given similar circumstances, is it possible to change history - or at least see if it comes out roughly the same - - basically can we do better.
A good point was made recently about the Brits constraints of aircraft available - If I'm not mistaken the # of available pilots was the real problem - just weren't enough of them - the extensive pilots schools in Canada had not kicked in yet and they were hard pressed to fill the aircraft they had.
It would see reasonable to give the Brits a bonus point for pilots that can be returned to action if shot down - Safe ditches/parachutes onto British soil etc etc. - outright deaths and perhaps sea ditches not counting. Of course this will put the brakes to free wheeling hordes chasing the Luftwaffe all the way back to France - you can do it but at a cost. :)
Also keep in mind that German bomber losses came in at around 9% - from the point of view of an ongoing war that is disasterous - that rate of loss will see them to the point of uselessness as an efffective force very quickly. This is something else that could be addressed in the point system - making bomber losses score higher would put more emphisis on their protection by fighters - places more demands on CO operational methods.
Does the loss of aircraft especially bombers (more costly to produce and man) affect the next Frame ie. lose them this frame and you get fewer next? - once again putting operational pressure on the CO's heheheh
Remember this is not the main - what works there doesn't always work here. :)
..just my 2 cents Cdn eh! :D
-gotta say those Hurri's we encountered just west A18 were tough - fun time had here !!
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Also keep in mind that German bomber losses came in at around 9% - from the point of view of an ongoing war that is disasterous - that rate of loss will see them to the point of uselessness as an efffective force very quickly.
True, bomber loss rates were close to history, but fighter attrition rates are always astronomical in FSO compared to the real deal.
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not sure what those hurri's were thinking there towards the end of the frame at the wrong end of the channel ...
pretty sure they won't be back ...
what was very realistic imo was the fuel multiplier in regards to the 109. i ended up leading after our first scrap near 18 and after we finally got clear of that it took every last drop of our fuel just to get back to a safe base, there were some very nervous moments there ...
++S++ all fun frame.
t
A51 wasn't even scratched. The Ju88s that were assigned to hit it didn't do so well: we shot them all down. :)
Btw, if you're having trouble with the .303s, bring your convergence back to a range that seems silly and unreasonable, like 175 yards. All of my kills on Friday took one good squirt of .303s. Even the Ju-88 I shot down popped when the .303s hit at the same point. :aok
As for the results, they're no big deal. I doubt that in the real BoB RAF Hurricane pilots went on sweeps toward France looking for 109s to fight with.
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One other point to remember form history. The RAF did not prevent many raids reaching and bombing their targets. But it was never really expected that they would. Their role was simply to come out on top in the war of attrition. The RAF's victory in the Battle of Britain was simply to continue to exist as an effective fighting force.
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"The RAF did not prevent many raids reaching and bombing their targets"
Ditto for 99 percent of all large raids in WW2. Preventing bombers from ever reaching the target was not a reasonable expectation. There were a few exceptions, and most of those are well covered. Even the Schweinfurt raids in 1943 with no fighter escort, flying into an area well covered by 1st rate radar of the day got through. Air War is a war of attrition, in almost all cases, from 1916-2009.
Re any cannon armed RAF fighter in the BoB: No. 19 Squadron for a few weeks did use the Spitfire IB as Shifty said, it had 2 x 20mm hispanos. It represented probably less than 1 percent of the total sorties flown by RAF Fighter Command. They had too many problems with jamming and were withdrawn, although the initial results were promising enough that the cannon idea was still worked on. There were no cannon armed Hurricanes at all in the battle, not even a single one. Just in case there are any lingering doubts. There were a few squadrons of Hurricane IIAs and IIBs, but these were definately not in any large #. Those were armed with 303s. There were a few Spitfire IIAs, also armed with 303s.
Just on a historical note regarding the pilots in the RAF at the time. The RAF could not have held out without the large # of aircrews from the British Commonwealth; Canada, Australia, New Zealand, S. Africa, Rhodesia, ect, and the foreign nationals; the Free Poles, Free Czecks, Free French, and some from the USA, some 487 "foreign pilots" in total. The transfers from other commands such as Bomber Command, Coastal Command, the Fleet Air Arm and Training units also were vital. They got anybody that could fly a fighter. It was a rather interesting bag of nationalities and individuals. Rather than the 1930s RAF which had been described as "the worlds most exclusive flying club" it more resembled a flying circus in the BoB, with many pilots from different parts of the globe. Of course the majority were English, Scot, and Welsh, and Northen Irish, from the British Isles.
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not sure what those hurri's were thinking there towards the end of the frame at the wrong end of the channel ...
pretty sure they won't be back ...
Im sure they will be in the next frame. Seems someone thought letting the bombers go by them and telling the 334th to "go get em" while they did a fighter sweep to France made sense.Sure didnt make sense to me as as the role was to defend. But MA mentalities do tend to happen in FSO.
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i meant back across the channel, i am sure they will be in the next frame, just a little sore, and wiser.
;)
++S++
t
Im sure they will be in the next frame. Seems someone thought letting the bombers go by them and telling the 334th to "go get em" while they did a fighter sweep to France made sense.Sure didnt make sense to me as as the role was to defend. But MA mentalities do tend to happen in FSO.
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i meant back across the channel, i am sure they will be in the next frame, just a little sore, and wiser.
Thats open for debate :aok
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Thats open for debate :aok
of course it is ...
this is a bbs after all :aok
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There were no cannon armed Hurricanes at all in the battle, not even a single one. Just in case there are any lingering doubts. There were a few squadrons of Hurricane IIAs and IIBs, but these were definately not in any large #. Those were armed with 303s. There were a few Spitfire IIAs, also armed with 303s.
With respect, I couldn't let that one slide by. I have a book with a photo of L1750, a twin cannon armed Hurricane that flew in the Battle. It was an experiment with 20mm Oerlikons in gondolas. The pilot was Flight Lieutenant Dick Smith who was keen to test the firepower on a real target. The weight and fittings of the cannon apparently were a stretch for the power then available in the Hurricane. I can find a few references on the net:
F/L R.L.'Dick' Smith joined No 151 Squadron on the 10th of June 1940 as "B" Flight commander. His flying ability was rated "Exceptional". Realising he had no combat experience where as the men under his command did from their time in France, he put in as many hours as he could practising dog-fighting with them prior to his first sortie. He flew 133 sorties during the Battle of Britain. Some of these sortie's were at the controls of a two cannon armed Hurricane (L1750) or a four cannoned Hurricane(V7350) which until then were idle as no one wanted to fly them. The cannon slowed the Hurricane down and also made it less agile. On top of that it was aid that the cannons lacked reliability. He flew them on 110 operational sorties from North Weald. On the 13th of August 1940 he scored his first confirmed victory, a Do 17. He ended the Battle with this one kill, three probables, and two damaged and no recognition for having proved the cannon armed Hurricane's to be effective.
Here's some more info on interesting Hurricane experiments:
http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/PROJECTS.HTM (http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/PROJECTS.HTM)
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Just to chime in on the allied side...
I have a blast at FSO and I am very grateful for the guys who put these things together at the cost of their own dime. Thanks a bunch, guys. :salute
I found the frame frustrating and difficult to fly and I've never had more fun. I'm guessing that the pilots who flew it in 41 felt pretty much the same, except for the fun part. This was a great experience! I felt like I was there, with all the fear of failure and frustration with the situation. It was great!
As for making allied pilots wait to scramble, that could be fun too but we should get some observers in coastal base towers to "scan the sky". I don't know the history in detail but as a former soldier I remember doing sky watch. Can't be a new idea and would simulate the relaying of info up the chain of command then out to the fighting wings...
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With respect, I couldn't let that one slide by. I have a book with a photo of L1750, a twin cannon armed Hurricane that flew in the Battle. It was an experiment with 20mm Oerlikons in gondolas. The pilot was Flight Lieutenant Dick Smith who was keen to test the firepower on a real target. The weight and fittings of the cannon apparently were a stretch for the power then available in the Hurricane.
With the power of the 109 running with gondolas,I can only shudder to think what they did to the Hurri 1.
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Thats an interesting bit of info, so I will say "other than L1750 and V7350" then. :aok
Was going to add, I think the best idea for Hurricane armament in 1940 came from the Belgians, which were planning an order of 80 MkIs with 4 x 12.7mm FN machine guns rather than the 7.7mms.
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Was going to add, I think the best idea for Hurricane armament in 1940 came from the Belgians, which were planning an order of 80 MkIs with 4 x 12.7mm FN machine guns rather than the 7.7mms.
That seems like some real firepower by 1940 standards.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that the Hurricane Mk IIC was not as capable a dogfighter as it is in AH. The extra weight degraded its handling qualities, which isn't so noticeable in our game.
The RAF lacking firepower is all part of the BoB experience. I've flown the Luftwaffe side of this and the 109E armament isn't easier, it's just different.
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60 rounds of cannon in the 109 isnt alot to even a seasoned 109 stick. Add in the fuel issue and they had to hope to hit action in a hurry.
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60 Rounds of cannon may seem insignificant, but be advised that those cannon rounds and the 109 MG rounds aren't going into bombers. They're going into wooden planes.
By comparison, the .303's have to damage and destroy metal bombers that have a higher capacity for damage.
And yes, we're all aware the wingroot and cockpit are the best places to shoot, and yes, it is part of the "ambiance" of the BOB.
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"109E armament isn't easier, it's just different"
Ya I agree, I have done many of these and its always interesting to try the two different types out; the 303s have a real "buzzsaw" effect, and I will say again, seem to be very underestimated by some, untill they are hit at d200 by those things, and the 20mm MG-FF, which yes, have greater hitting power, IF you land a hit, and IF you do so before the drum runs dry.
"They're going into wooden planes."
The "metal fighter" A6M2 Zeros ability to sustain any kind of battle damage was notoriously weak.
The Hurricanes were partially wood (rear fuselage only) and had a great capacity for sustaining battle damage, and were also easier to repair. Nothing wrong with wood. The underlying armor (steel armor) for the crews, and self sealing tanks, was what made the Luftwaffe's 1940 bombers more difficult to shoot down. The pre war notion was that a battery of machine guns firing incindiery ammo, would light up a bomber and burn it. This was before fuel tanks became self sealing. This was a major reason why Japanese a/c were not able to sustain a lot of hits, because their crews were fatally vulnerable, and the fuel cells would burn like a roman candle when hit.
But I take your point that the 20mm MG-FFs are aimed at fighters, and of course, are easier to shoot down than a bomber. True enough.
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We had a great time, some of our sticks had never been in early birds, so it took some getting use to.
But we did get a couple in the top ten, luckily, but you could feel the pensiveness and sense of urgency you dont get in the MA.
The idea of scrambling at the sound of the bell, could be interesting, in a game that strives as best it can to be close to what happened, it could add another dimension. Anyway, great job all.
Hats off to the crew that puts these together,......... outstanding.
:salute