Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: moot on February 11, 2008, 04:23:26 PM
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Any non-cookie cutter skin.. Especialy those with high camo water marks.
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You and me both.
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There weren't exactly a lot of Ta152s in service with which to get a large variety of cammo schemes. I don't know if there is much out there to be found sadly.
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Originally posted by Karnak
There weren't exactly a lot of Ta152s in service with which to get a large variety of cammo schemes. I don't know if there is much out there to be found sadly.
I agree that that's the issue. Just not many in service and at a time when fancy paint was probably the last of the LW's worries.
Seems like last time this question came up we found three 152 profiles but all were basically the same.
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I had a piece of scrap paper with all the details on the schemes I'd found that stood out from the rest, but I think I might've misplaced it.. From memory:
There's a green on green scheme that's pretty common, which TrueKill already has in game with "Green 9", WN 168.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2241/2259458415_dbb19874f9_o.gif) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420910@N07/2259458415/sizes/o/)
There's a brown on green type which Waffle has done as "Green 4":
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2149/2189284152_ffd98c1b67_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420910@N07/2189284152/)
There's "Yellow 1", green on green with some of what looks like some 81 where the top half of the german cross should be.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2405/2188498335_7998296777_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420910@N07/2188498335/)
There's this profile of a numbered scheme (so it was operational, as I understand it) with some sort of very dark color on a pretty light one.. Like 82 or 80 on 78. The profile is pretty sketchy:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2032/2150515692_0c09ca074a_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420910@N07/2150515692/)
One way it could make sense is if it was a prototype put to use (as V4/WN004 was) with its prototype paint scheme for a while, before getting repainted as something else in regular operational colors at Rechlin where Stolle flew it... Another "Fw190D9 & Ta152" book published by Japo has WN 003 in 81/83. Mostly 83 on the fuselage.
There's a few pics that add even more confusion (IMO), of WN003. They show it fresh out of the factory (one book says Langenhagen, another Cottbus), one picture taken from the left, the other from the right. The left hand side of the plane has a visible contrast between upper and lower fuselage camo at the german cross' level (contrasting the same way e.g. Yellow 1 does in that same spot)...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/2259449459_34116c69a0_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420910@N07/2259449459/sizes/o/)
while the right hand side picture is nowhere near that sharp a contrast..
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2343/2259444985_f1c5beab70_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420910@N07/2259444985/sizes/o/)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2371/2259449259_3143969d36_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420910@N07/2259449259/sizes/o/)
But the picture of the right hand side looks like that Black 14 profile. They both have the same mottling pattern. The picture of the left hand side of the plane would be WN003 after it had gotten a normal operational paint scheme at Rechlin. It would match the profiles in "ModelArt Fw190D9 & Ta152" (p.149) that're labeled as WN 003 and "75/74(83?)". One of these have it as "Green 4" with a white on black hub.. although it looks like that same book lists this same WN003 as the one that ended up at the NASM as FE112, which would kill the book's credibility.
There's a few oddballs in the japanese publication "ModelArt":
A "Red 9", WN 168, the same WN as green 9 which (unless I'm mistaken) is what Reschke flew as Green 9. This one has a white on red prop hub, and full green engine section like other birds with a replaced engine have.
WN 168 shows up in "Monogram 24" as "Green 9", there with a white on black prop hub, and a full dark or olive green replaced engine section.
It's also in that same ModelArt, in a profile that has 81, 82, and 83 RLM colors, with a note next to the RLM82 area of paint on the profile:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2007/2259472001_87379bbb65_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12420910@N07/2259472001/)
There's no caption that I can read to say what the prop hub color is.
Also in ModelArt, a blue 15, colored and labeled as an RLM 83/75 scheme. White on black hub, full 83 engine section, with some 83 high on the fuselage from there to no further than about the end of the canopy glass. The rest of the fuselage has 75 on the upper area and 76 or whatever the usual lower paint color is. It has 301's reich defense band with a red horizontal bar through it.
It looks like there's a top view of this one on page 146, but I can't read Japanese so that guess is as good as any.
And there's a profile and color schematic for V30/U1, WN 055, dated August '44, in RLM 74 and 75. It's a prototype, but it might have served in Rechlin's Ta152 squadron of prototype and evaluation planes put into combat, although I've seen no mention of this WN anywhere else.
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Your brown profile is most likely a bad camera/scanner or even bad color printing on somebody's part. It's probably almost identical to "green 9" if you look at the layout. It just totally looks like the colors are wrong, IMO.
Also, keep in mind a LOT more were made than were received by the squadron. There were a few hundred made, they just didn't get dispersed in time. Sort of like the Me262 in that regard.
Anyways, you'll find tons without markings, factory clean camo, etc, but it doesn't mean they'd accept that as a skin because it never saw action (was never delivered).
Something to keep in mind.
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It's a fact that at least a few prototypes were put to use, some with JG11 and all of the Rechlin evaluation center's.
I don't think it's that far fetched that some made it into action for a certain time with their prototype camo. This camo is known to usualy be shades of grey, like 74/75.
The Black 14 profile could be wrong, but what points you to it being Green 9? If we assume the hue is wrong it could be anything. It's simpler to assume the hue is right, and it also matches the mottling pattern that CW+CC has pictured right after completion.. A number and Reich Defense Band like it has means it was intended for operation... And that's what happened to those JG11 and JG152 pre production types.
Where did you read that a few hundred were made? The tally I've seen is 67 or so.
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I say that the 14 one is wrong because I've seen it online, and it's the only one that looks like that, but the most common colors have green following the same exhaust-stub-level-demarcation-line.
Most pre-unit (i.e. factory?) paint schemes I see are high-backed brown/green or green/green in photos. I've not seen many grey camo jobs other than prototype models.
Also, I don't think HTC will accept prototype skins. EDIT: I mean test prototypes. If it's a model close to a 152H and that skin was used at JG11 for example, it would probably work.
Have you got any refs for the JG11 markings? I'd like to see if they're any different from what we have currently skinned.
I have a few files littering my HD, I'll post some this evening.
Edit: The few hundred (I'm thinking 250+ -ish) I don't know where it's from. I've read a lot about it and that number pops into mind. Could be wrong but I'm at work right now and can't check my stuff.
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Krusty, like I said, if a prototype were drawn by someone making a profile, Black 14 is what it'd look like. There is no better explanation, and since it's not that unlikely given the 152's history, and the profile has no hue or editing artifacts, this explanation is pretty plausible.
Just as CI-XM nor Yellow 1 aren't fake because they don't look like regular schemes.
About prototypes: They were put to use in the last days of the war along with any flyable airframe. This is what JG152 was - all the evaluation planes at Rechlin test center (Ar234s, D9s, Ju88s and more, IIRC) were put into combat status, the 152s under Bruno Stolle.
According to Leutnant Mehling of Stab/JG11, all the 152s they received seemed to be test aircraft, "no two alike". I've got no refs for JG11's planes.
I'm pretty sure there's at least a few other pre-production 152s that were brought to H-0 and/or H-1 specs. I didn't mean any 152C-series, everything I talked about in this thread is strictly 152H types, except for the one mention of CI-XM above.
edit- There's some guy whose cousin was in the LW (supposedly) that's supposed to put a book out on the Ta152, and he says it covers Black 14 too.. But that book's been "coming soon" for years now.
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Originally posted by moot
It's a fact that at least a few prototypes were put to use, some with JG11 and all of the Rechlin evaluation center's.
I don't think it's that far fetched that some made it into action for a certain time with their prototype camo. This camo is known to usualy be shades of grey, like 74/75.
The Black 14 profile could be wrong, but what points you to it being Green 9? If we assume the hue is wrong it could be anything. It's simpler to assume the hue is right, and it also matches the mottling pattern that CW+CC has pictured right after completion.. A number and Reich Defense Band like it has means it was intended for operation... And that's what happened to those JG11 and JG152 pre production types.
Where did you read that a few hundred were made? The tally I've seen is 67 or so.
That's the number I've seen as well. Never heard anything about a 'few hundred"
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Profiles I've gathered in the year+ I've been looking for them.
Green 1
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_green1_1.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_green1_2.jpg)
Green 2
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_green2.gif)
Green 3
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_green3.jpg)
Green 4
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_green4.jpg)
Black 14 (might be an poor interpretation of green 4, now that I think about it)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_black14.gif)
Green 8
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_green8.jpg)
Green 9
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_green9_1.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_green9_2.jpg)
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Yellow 1
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_yellow1.gif)
Yellow 5
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/152_yellow5.gif)
I believe the yellows are mistaken interpretations of the green colors on B&W film, but this is a guess and based on a few comments I've read on the Internet.
A few photos showing different possible camouflages.
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/ta152_compass.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/ta152_field.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/152/ta152_line.jpg)
P.S. You were right about the numbers. I was thinking about something else.
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You guys may want to check out "Luftwaffe in Focus No. 13" which came out in January.
"Aircraft in Focus: The story of the Ta 152 “white 7", 5./JG 301 "
http://www.luftfahrtverlag-start.de/EHomepage/LwFEnglisch/lwfenglisch.html
Page down some..
Others are commenting on another board about a picture that was on EBAY and is now in the article.
..as way of an update, the article in the latest Luftwaffe im Focus (No.13) does indeed feature the Ebay image as posted previously. It is captioned as a Ta152H-0 coded "White 7", WNr.150007 and speculates that it was taken at the end of the war at Stendal airbase. It goes on to say that the Ta152 carries a rounded 7 commonly seen of aircraft belonging to 5./JG301. They also think that the Fw190D-9 coded "White 16" in the background was also attached to this Staffel... thus "White 7" appears to have been used by 5./JG301 and was no longer attached to the Geschwaderstab...
and for my JG11 buddies..
If not and since it seems this photo was taken after surrender, the place could be Neustadt-Glewe, where Stabstaffel and II./JG301 gave their airplanes to JG11 on 30 April... A period when I., III. and IV./JG301 were all already disbanded. We know JG11 painted new fuselage digits, ie: NASM 'us made green4' W.Nr.150010, got a "black 2" fuselage code probably there. So imho those aircraft's are probably inside this hangar for maintenance and to get new fuselage code before turning back to fight with JG11, this could explain why 150007 had no more a green digit but why we can still see the blue horizontal bar from the Stabstaffel... Effectively looking to NASM Ta 152, JG11 got no time to overpainted the JG301 fuselage band...
[/b]
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Yep Fencer, I'm trying to get a copy of it...
Thanks for all the pics Krusty. I need to take a moment and compare with what I've found, but it seems there's more hints of the mess of records and/or parts/paint/number assignments: That Green 4 is the same WN as Red 9 in the Japanese book, and it shows up elsewhere as Green 9 but with a different hub.
The prop hub on your pic looks dark but has a green hue on the specularity, and the whole profile is pretty dark, so it's probably white on green paint.
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Or it could be a mistake on the artist's part
:D
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I'm not taking anything for granted.. I'm looking for the best possible theory behind each inconsistency, and the goal is to reach a point where it's solid enough to be accepted as a skin.
I don't have much yet, but I'll try anyway.
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Fencer,
Funny, a year or two ago, if and when I ever suggested the 11th had Ta's, I was blasted from the bbs. Now, as more and more of a clearer picture comes out of both Axis and Allied sources, it's now more visible. Thanks for the support as always.
Moot,
Back to "Black 14". Much confusion still abounds about this one because of many factors. Not the least of which is the often amatuer mistaken a late model Dora for a Ta. Also, late war, "14" was a common id used because the decreasing number of staffeln, corresponding with increasing planes per staffel. I saw the profile you referenced and I believe it is incorrect.
I still strongly believe it is one of the Stab/JG26 rides. A "one of a kind" Ta152C flown by Classen I think, maybe Katz, maybe both.
Also I am certain that as I said before, "they were a formidable pair and getting those 2 or 3 Ta's into the Stab was Major Goetz's doing. He brought those two men to the Stab for the sole purpose of winging together in the Ta."
Still diggin.
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That would match well with everything I've read, Stampf. But why the JG301 band? Did this 152C go to '301 and then to '26 without being repainted?
Maybe this could be relatively easier to track down, there weren't too many 152Cs made.
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I'd read some time ago (before trying to do any skins) that 2 Ta-152C-0s served alongside the -Hs in the same unit. I doubt "all the time" because they were not geared for high alt, but when the mission didn't call for 30k, I can believe it.
I saw a profile of a 152C-0 that was supposedly flying side by side with the -Hs. It was a scan from a book, but at the time I wasn't saving any of these things so I haven't seen it in ages.
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When did missions call for 30k? They were exceptional from everything I've read..
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I just meant missions where the different power curves for the -C and the -H didn't conflict with each other. I just made a number up for expediency's sake.
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Moot,
No "200ish" Ta152's were ever produced. The number is between 65 and 70 and most concur that 67 were completed.
That would match well with everything I've read, Stampf. But why the JG301 band? Did this 152C go to '301 and then to '26 without being repainted?
Exactly on the fuse bands! Just like in the quote by Fencer, and just like the Ta (green4) in the NASM. Fuse bands are the WORST possible reference when conducting research into late war aircraft. The WORST. Reason: Simple. the Reichsverteidung program failed and was over with by 45. The units no longer "officially" used the bands to identify themselves, but for many reasons didnt bother to overpaint the bands. That's why you find planes recovered on the eastern front with Western front fuse bands. Lack of time, lack of paint, lack of manpower all played into it, not to mention the fluid nature of the fronts in 45.
Look at Fencer's new JG11 190F8 for example A squaddie asked me why the mottling was within the fuse band. Simple! Plane was recovered in 45! Program over, fuse band left to deteriorate, but not purpose removed. From what I see, you are beginning to look at the Men behind these machines. I applaud you, that's your best reference pool, and while the research is longer and harder than the usual google search these ijuts do and then post like "experts", the fruits for your labor will be more sweet, and nearer the mark.
We'll get there.
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I saved a copy of the default skin of the Ta-152... Im going to hold off a week or two (wishful thinking... they did the La and Wirbelwind, maybe the 152 is next? :) )
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Originally posted by Krusty
I just meant missions where the different power curves for the -C and the -H didn't conflict with each other. I just made a number up for expediency's sake.
Yeah, but given their situation in those last weeks of war, it really wasn't their luxury to keep a fighter on the ground when it was still functional. Like the quote I put in my sig says... :)
Fuse bands are the WORST possible reference when conducting research into late war aircraft.
Thank you Stampf, I didn't know that.
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Very Welcome.
...and the reverse of course is true as well. When units recieved airframes previously assigned to a RVD program unit, priority 1 was NOT removing the now "defunct" id. band, and it was common place in the last months of the struggle for units to field planes with mismatched markings. "Looking good" was the last of the luftwaffe's remaining pilots concerns. All they thought of was their families, now cut off behind the lines, and where they could possibly fly to in order to escape the russians.
Effective Infrastructure was non existant at this point in the war, and when doing historical research into a time of such utter chaos, you need to look at the men. Only the men can tell it straight.
Look, these blokes in Wash, London, Paris and Moscow, didn't have a clue in 45 about the "details" of LW operations. One plane looked liked another...hey must be from that unit. WRONG. Might have been at one time, yes, but where that aircraft finished that chaotic rollercoaster ride from hell was often far from where it began.
TA's are the worst too, for the obvious reasons. Coupled with the above reasons and circumstances, "accurate" accounting is daunting at best. Find the pilot, find the log, the date, and the unit, and you will find your A\C.
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Very well Explained Stampf your enthusiasm and tremendous amount of information has certainly been a help in my research of the history behind the men as you so aptly put it.
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mooootttt im terrible at desiphering black and white photos but i ran across a pic of a ta152 on the net(wonderful site) that hasent been posed
http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/Focke-Wulf%20Ta%20152.htm
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That's a 152C, not the 152H that we have.
Shorter wingspan...
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More likely some sort of prototype. No wing guns, and an inboard pitot tube. Probably a version of the 190D? (just guessing)
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Bump for Devil505's reference.
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Bump for Devil505's reference.
Too bad most of the pictures don't work any more.
But beyond the almighty "Cheeto" I wasn't really planning on adding new skins as much as replacing the old ones.
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Too bad most of the pictures don't work any more.
But beyond the almighty "Cheeto" I wasn't really planning on adding new skins as much as replacing the old ones.
White 7 has always been my go to 152 skin