Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Raider179 on February 03, 2005, 11:45:53 AM
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Russia you have my support to wax these mo-fo's from the face of the earth using whatever means you deam neccessary.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/03/chechnya.ap/index.html
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I think I speak for everyone here when I say:
"Waste the mother ****ers."
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Ya know, if the Chechens weren't using such horrible ways of trying to gain thier independence, the whole world would be with them. Blowing up defenseless kids to make a point... wtf. I have zero sympathy for what happens to the militant Chechens now.
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The Russian's Bin Laden.
No death is too cruel for these animals.
I salute the brave Russian soliders fighting to kill or capture this creature.
Good luck and
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2 words Smoldering Hole.
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But he blamed some of the deaths on flame-throwers used by Russian special forces who attacked the school to end the siege. He said that action, not explosives set by the hostage-takers, had caused the roof of the school gym to collapse.
The dickwhipe has the nerve to say that those deaths were not his fault.
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Originally posted by Stang
Ya know, if the Chechens weren't using such horrible ways of trying to gain thier independence, the whole world would be with them. Blowing up defenseless kids to make a point... wtf. I have zero sympathy for what happens to the militant Chechens now.
well said
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Thank you, guys!
Originally posted by Stang
Ya know, if the Chechens weren't using such horrible ways of trying to gain thier independence, the whole world would be with them. Blowing up defenseless kids to make a point... wtf. I have zero sympathy for what happens to the militant Chechens now.
Their "independance" was even more horrible. 500,000 non-Chechen citizens ran away from there in 1991-94. Any "gyaur" was nothing then a prey for them. When after 1996 surrender they were left alone and did nothing but rob and rape again.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Thank you, guys!
Their "independance" was even more horrible. 500,000 non-Chechen citizens ran away from there in 1991-94. Any "gyaur" was nothing then a prey for them. When after 1996 surrender they were left alone and did nothing but rob and rape again.
amazing when the truth comes out about groups.
My apologies Boroda for ever criticizing the Russian response to these animals.
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anyone that would give russians free reign to do what ever they want doenst know much about what russians have done.
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what would happen if these chechens ever aquired a nuclear weapon?
Why cant the russian military defeat these soldiers? They do wear uniforms dont they??
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Originally posted by Pongo
anyone that would give russians free reign to do what ever they want doenst know much about what russians have done.
I know what the Chechens did.
Can't imagine anything worse than gunning down a school
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Originally posted by Muckmaw1
I know what the Chechens did.
Can't imagine anything worse than gunning down a school
Read Tolstoп.
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Originally posted by Pongo
anyone that would give russians free reign to do what ever they want doenst know much about what russians have done.
The events you speak of were in the past. The world is in a new era in case you havent noticed. This kind of behavior is no longer tolerable no matter who commits it. And anyone who would not take the gloves off a fighter after they lose 300 kids in a school is either foolish or so safe in his country that he cant even imagine what those fathers,mothers,relatives, friends went through. I trust our russian buddies to take care of it by any means they deam neccessary.
They say violence never solved anything but it solved WW2.
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Originally posted by Raider179
They say violence never solved anything but it solved WW2.
Sig material!
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The events you speak of were in the past.
No, they're still ongoing.
See for example the US state department human rights reports throughout the 90s:
Domestic and foreign human rights groups documented numerous killings and
serious violations of international humanitarian law and human rights in the
Republic of Chechnya by both Russian military and Chechen separatist forces.
Violations committed by Russian military forces occurred on a much greater scale
than those of the Chechen separatists.
Russian troops invaded the Republic of Chechnya on December 11, 1994, in order
to prevent Chechnya's effort to secede from the Russian Federation. The origins
of the conflict are complex. The immediate roots of this crisis go back to
1991, when Chechnya declared its independence. But relations between Russia and
the people of Chechnya have long been contentious, dating to the period of
Russian expansion in the Caucasus in the 19th Century. The indiscriminate and
disproportionate use of force in Chechnya by Russian troops resulted in
thousands to tens of thousands of civilians killed, and some 500,000 people
displaced.
Russian attacks were responsible for the deaths of thousands to tens of
thousands of civilian residents of Chechnya, and Russian forces were credibly
reported to have summarily executed Chechens.
Russia continued its brutal military campaign against the secessionist Republic
of Chechnya, which it launched in December 1994. Russian forces used
indiscriminate and disproportionate force during the destruction of most of
Chechnya's main city, Groznyy, and in attacks on other Chechen towns and
villages. According to press reports, there were up to 4,000 detonations an
hour at the height of the winter campaign against Groznyy. After federal forces
captured several major cities and towns in the Chechen Republic, Chechen
fighters employed guerrilla and terrorist tactics against forces of the
Ministries of Defense and Internal Affairs, as well as against Russian civilians
in the town of Budennovsk.
There is no official figure for civilian deaths, but unofficial estimates range
from the thousands to the tens of thousands. The Government has reported that
2,000 federal soldiers were killed and 6,000 wounded during the military
operation.
Violations of international humanitarian law and human rights by government
forces included: the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of military force;
the inhumane treatment of noncombatants; arbitrary detention; beatings; the
torture or summary execution of Chechens at "filtration" (detention) centers,
the largest of which functioned at a meat processing plant near Groznyy; and
harassment and attacks on journalists in the war zone.
The worst violations of international humanitarian law and human rights were
reportedly committed by the "kontraktniki," nonconscripted Russian citizens paid
by the Russian army. "Kontraktniki" are accused of being the group most likely
responsible for having committed the civilian massacre at Samashki. According
to the Russian human rights group Memorial, Russian forces killed 103 civilians
in Samashki in early April in retaliation for the village's support for Chechen
separatists. The Memorial report indicated that no fewer than 18 persons were
killed in artillery bombardment; 5 were killed as a result of shots fired from
armored vehickles; 6 were shot by Russian snipers; at least 30 were killed
inside their homes, either from gunfire at close range or as a result of
grenades being thrown into homes; at least 2 Samashki residents were reported to
have been executed by Russian officers while in filtration camps; others were
set on fire by Russian forces. The youngest killed was 15 years old; the oldest
103. A Duma commission is investigating the massacre, but the commission head
has rejected allegations that a massacre or gross violations of human rights
took place there.
All from the US state department human rights report on Russia, 1995, http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/democracy/1995_hrp_report/95hrp_report_eur/Russia.html
There also were credible reports that the armed forces used indiscriminate force at various times in the Chechen conflict in areas with significant civilian populations, resulting in numerous deaths (see Section 1.g.). They generally conducted such actions with impunity; however, there was at least one conviction; on July 25, a military court convicted Colonel Yuriy Budanov of charges of kidnapping, murder and abuse of authority in the death of an 18-year-old Chechen woman (see Section 1.g.).
The indiscriminate use of force by government troops in the Chechen conflict has resulted in widespread civilian casualties and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of persons, the majority of whom sought refuge in the neighboring republic of Ingushetiya. President Putin announced in 2001 the successful completion of the active military phase of the struggle against separatism in Chechnya and stated that an anti-terrorist operation under the direction of the FSB would begin immediately. The security situation prevented most foreign observers from traveling to the region, and the Government enforced strict controls on both foreign and domestic media access (see Section 2.a.).
Federal authorities--both military and civilian--have limited journalists' access to war zones since the beginning of the second war in Chechnya in October 1999. Most domestic journalists and editors appeared to exercise self-censorship and avoided subjects embarrassing to the Government with regard to the conflict (see Section 2.a.). Human rights observers also faced limitations in access to the region (see Section 4). These restrictions made independent observation of conditions and verification of reports very difficult and limited the available sources of information concerning the conflict. However, human rights groups with staff in the region continued to release credible reports of human rights abuses and atrocities committed by federal forces during the year. A wide range of reports indicated that federal military operations resulted in numerous civilian casualties and the massive destruction of property and infrastructure, despite claims by federal authorities that government forces utilized precision targeting when combating rebels. There were no reliable estimates of the number of civilians killed as a result of federal military operations; estimates of the totals since 1999 varied from hundreds to thousands. It was also impossible to verify the number of civilians injured by federal forces.
Mopping up or "cleansing" operations known as "zachistki" continued periodically throughout the year, although federal forces shifted tactics toward more targeted operations. Although this change reduced large-scale abuses that often accompanied zachistki, human rights organizations indicated that disappearances of those detained in these raids continued. Human rights activists, including Memorial, reported that federal forces continued to ignore order #80, issued in 2002, which established rules on how to carry out passport checks and mopping-up operations. That order required that the military forces have license plates on their vehicles when entering a village, that military personnel should be accompanied by a representative of the Procuracy and local officials, that they identify themselves when entering a house, and that lists be made and shared with local authorities of all persons arrested during a mopping-up operation. For example, in January, federal forces conducted a sweep in the town of Argun. According to reports, the federal forces dragged residents from their beds and took them to a quarry where they detained and tortured them. Relatives of the detained found two bodies that had been blown up in the quarry. Residents were able to identify one of the bodies as a resident whom federal forces had arrested. Only after mass protests in Argun were most of those detained released. All of them showed signs of physical abuse and required medical attention.
Thopse are from the State department human rights report on Russia, 2003, http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27861.htm
The reports also detail the atrocities committed by Chechen seperatist forces.
Boroda will no doubt claim it's all lies, but that's a pretty accurate reflection of what the Russians have been doing in Chechnya in the last 10 - 15 years.
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Like I said. Dont know what the russians have done.
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Originally posted by straffo
Read Tolstoп.
He'll prabably need a movie :)
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hmmm thats all against chechneyans in a warzone. I see nothing similar to going into a schoolhouse while it is in session, seizing hostages, then detonating the place. Lots of those "atrocities" the russians committed were done in battle and open war zones. Not that that is any excuse but I dont find the similarity. I will concede however that Russia has committed questionable acts in chechneya. But again I see none that equal this schoolhouse attack, or the the theatre situation, or the bombing of those 2 russian planes.
Sorry but I am not gonna show sympathy to the chechneyan's when they shield and protect someone that plans attacks such as these. Previously I would have held the russians accountable for such acts on the battlefield with deliberate targeted killing of civilians but after reading this guy saying he is gonna do it again I say do whatever you have to to kill this SOB.
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Sorry but I am not gonna show sympathy to the chechneyan's when they shield and protect someone that plans attacks such as these.
The problem when you get that attitude is you've entered a circle of atrocities. The Russians justify their actions because of what the Chechen's have done, the Chechen's justify their actions because of what the Russians have done.
Saying it's a war zone, therefore ok, misses the point, I think.
I'm fairly sure the Chechen parents who've lost their children won't simply shrug it off because their children were killed in "a war zone".
There is no justification for atrocities, and giving "permission" for a new set because of the previous set is only going to perpetuate matters.
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Here is a picture of Grozny, the Chechen capital city after the Russians were through with it in the late 1990s...
(http://www.backyard-astro.com/solar/moon/2004_03-28/Moon7craters.jpg)
Oops, my bad, here's the one I was looking for...
(http://www.watchdog.cz/photo/350after.jpg)
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Originally posted by Nashwan
The problem when you get that attitude is you've entered a circle of atrocities. The Russians justify their actions because of what the Chechen's have done, the Chechen's justify their actions because of what the Russians have done.
Saying it's a war zone, therefore ok, misses the point, I think.
I'm fairly sure the Chechen parents who've lost their children won't simply shrug it off because their children were killed in "a war zone".
There is no justification for atrocities, and giving "permission" for a new set because of the previous set is only going to perpetuate matters.
never said ok I said "Not that that is any excuse "
I agree with you on circle of atrocities all you gotta do is look at isreal/palestine. But I still think it is a seperate thing when you go into a school and do this then if someone lobs artillery at militants and it hits your house.
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There is no justification for atrocities, and giving "permission" for a new set because of the previous set is only going to perpetuate matters.
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this is why war should not be pursued unless it is going to be completed. One side will need to lose. Unfortunately war is an atrocity so once you have commited your forces you might as well get it over with.
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"Also Friday, prosecutors in southern Russia said the attackers who were killed in the Beslan school seizure have been buried at an undisclosed location and, in accordance with Russian law, without notification of their relatives. "
Too Bad....
I'd like the opportunity to spit on them
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Here is a picture of Grozny, the Chechen capital city after the Russians were through with it in the late 1990s...
(http://www.backyard-astro.com/solar/moon/2004_03-28/Moon7craters.jpg)
Oops, my bad, here's the one I was looking for...
(http://www.watchdog.cz/photo/350after.jpg)
Got any pictures of Falluja?
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Originally posted by Pongo
anyone that would give russians free reign to do what ever they want doenst know much about what russians have done.
Stalin was Georgian.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Here is a picture of Grozny, the Chechen capital city after the Russians were through with it in the late 1990s...
GH, may I ask you a question, please? Please, don't get offended...
Are you an idiot?
You said you know some secret Croatian way to overtake a city turned into a fortress?
I am happy that in 2000 Russian Army simply bombed down the bastards, instead of sending soldiers against fortifications.
I still insist that in Chechen war zone there must be used more BM-21 rockets then AK-74 bullets.
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After Faluja - i'm all about thermobaric 210mm rounds.
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Here's how I see it.
I never have had a problem with how the Russians deal with the Chechyans.
But I expect the Russians to not have a problem with how the Israeli's deal with the Palestinians or how we deal with the Insurgents.
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Originally posted by Stang
Ya know, if the Chechens weren't using such horrible ways of trying to gain thier independence, the whole world would be with them. Blowing up defenseless kids to make a point... wtf. I have zero sympathy for what happens to the militant Chechens now.
well i agree .. did you ever see what are russian troops doing in Checna ?
May be you could have small problem to decide, who should be "******ed"
Plenty of Checnian here... plenty of our medical stuff worked overthere.
Russian army are not peace keeprs, not saint angles sent by god, nor sheep. Plenty of same pigs (as were in beslan) among them doing similary things in Checna.
But if you wish to go and fight in Checna, i wish you good luck.
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I sure hope you Russians get that 'tard before he pulls another Beslan.
Otoh I dont understand why the Russians are back in Chechyna. Whats so bad about letting those people rule themselves?
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Originally posted by Stang
Ya know, if the Chechens weren't using such horrible ways of trying to gain thier independence, the whole world would be with them. Blowing up defenseless kids to make a point... wtf. I have zero sympathy for what happens to the militant Chechens now.
Seems the world didn't care for the Chechen's then when they weren't doing what they're doing now.
Anyone here that were around before the theater and school terror incidents post about the Chechen's plight?
What we're seeing is an escalation of their war.
The Russians have basically two choices:
1) Total War where they wipe out most every Chechen.
2) Make peace and allow for the Chechen's independence.
To think of the thousands of casualies inflicted on the Chechens didn't include innocent elderly, children, infants, etc are being a bit naive.
BTW, I am in no way condoning this latest escalation of Chechen attacks on civillians. These are made out of desperation, hate, and revenge.
No easy answers here.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Russia you have my support to wax these mo-fo's from the face of the earth using whatever means you deam neccessary.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/03/chechnya.ap/index.html
at least this time we hope the US will have the good sense to not get involved :mad:
cause you know who was our dear child in Afghanistan in the 80s
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Originally posted by Stang
Ya know, if the Chechens weren't using such horrible ways of trying to gain thier independence, the whole world would be with them. Blowing up defenseless kids to make a point... wtf. I have zero sympathy for what happens to the militant Chechens now.
Yea..its alomost unbelievable theyre that stupid. Putin couldnt have paid somebody to give him a better excuse to rewrite the Russian constitution. I guess those bearded terrorists, evil genuises as they are, really dont think through that they are actually working more for the countries that they attack, than they claim to be fighting for.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Saying it's a war zone, therefore ok, misses the point, I think.
I'm fairly sure the Chechen parents who've lost their children won't simply shrug it off because their children were killed in "a war zone".
There is no justification for atrocities, and giving "permission" for a new set because of the previous set is only going to perpetuate matters.
Its easy to form an opinion when one side's set of actions is live on TV
Tronsky
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Here's how I see it.
I never have had a problem with how the Russians deal with the Chechyans.
But I expect the Russians to not have a problem with how the Israeli's deal with the Palestinians or how we deal with the Insurgents.
Israel is the only country that completely supports Russian operation in Chechnya.
I am 100% pro-Israely.
Imagine, in 1999 when bastards blew up two apartment homes in Moscow - one of them could be my house. I could simply die sleeping in a collapsing house at midnight, like 400+ Russians killed in apartment bombings.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Otoh I dont understand why the Russians are back in Chechyna. Whats so bad about letting those people rule themselves?
Again: they were let to live on themselves in 1996-99 they kept killing everyone, entertained themselves by public executions by Shariat law, finally got nothing to rob anymore and invaded Dagestan (a neighbouring Moslim republic) in August 1999. They got kicked out of there by local militants fighting together with Federal forces. Like 122mm howitzers working on Chechen positions for 8 hours and then Dagestanians with AKs cleansing what was left. With bayonets. Finishing that bastards like pigs.
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Leaving aside the rather specious argument over past Russian atrocities, please explain to me, in rational terms if at all possible, why the school children were legitimate targets.
Why did they have to die?
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Originally posted by lada
well i agree .. did you ever see what are russian troops doing in Checna ?
Did YOU see it?
If the enemy doesn't surrender - it is destroyed.
If they hide behind the backs of their women and elders - elders have to tell them not to do so. Otherwise - we have rocket artillery.
One BM-21 round in exchange for one AK shot. This is the way it should be. It is WAR, brother.
This bastards slaughtered all Soviet non-Chechen people in Chechnya in 1942 and gave an oath to Hitler. Stalin was a real humanist to simply load them on railway cars and deliver them to Kazakh steppes. When they returned in late-50s the first thing they did was to slaughter Russians again.
I am not bloodthirsty. Only pragmatic.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Leaving aside the rather specious argument over past Russian atrocities, please explain to me, in rational terms if at all possible, why the school children were legitimate targets.
Why did they have to die?
There are many different cultures on planet Earth. For Chechens kids are nothing more then disposable material.
This sad fact is never mentioned in Russian propaganda (I admit that there is heavy propaganda in RF on Chechen problem). As a mountain-hiker I have travelled thousands of kilometers in Caucasus and I can say that I understand that people to some extent. Most of other nations in Caucasus hate Chechens, and one of the reasons is that for them (Chechens) a child is not a human. It's something between a sheep and a cow.
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You reap what you sow. The russian army has a history of warcrimes and unlawful attacks against civillians. I have knowledge only starting from WW2 but there must be more.
The cycle of revenge goes on and on.
That said, I have seen a few of the execution videos (beheadings) performed by chechens and it made me feel angry even knowing the ones executed had blood on their hands too.
To tell you the truth, I'd be quite happy to see the world without BOTH of them.
Yeah, that sounds good. :aok
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
To tell you the truth, I'd be quite happy to see the world without BOTH of them.
Please accept my sincere thanks.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Did YOU see it?
If the enemy doesn't surrender - it is destroyed.
If they hide behind the backs of their women and elders - elders have to tell them not to do so. Otherwise - we have rocket artillery.
One BM-21 round in exchange for one AK shot. This is the way it should be. It is WAR, brother.
This bastards slaughtered all Soviet non-Chechen people in Chechnya in 1942 and gave an oath to Hitler. Stalin was a real humanist to simply load them on railway cars and deliver them to Kazakh steppes. When they returned in late-50s the first thing they did was to slaughter Russians again.
I am not bloodthirsty. Only pragmatic.
well Boroda ... so what did you achieve by those 6 years of "war" in chechna beside Beslan ?
What exactly do you expect to get with this attitude ?
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wasnt stalin virtually erased from the history books over there at some point?
i find it odd to be reading a defense of the man, if not wholly unsettling.
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Kruschev denounced Stalin at a Party Congress in ... like 1954.
Just a few years after Stalin's death anyway. Kind of shocked the system.
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didnt kruschev get pretty much wiped off the history books too?
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Originally posted by JB88
wasnt stalin virtually erased from the history books over there at some point?
i find it odd to be reading a defense of the man, if not wholly unsettling.
I am against "erasing" anything from history.
Stalin was a tremendous chatacter. A tyrant, but a creator of all we posess now. A person that is above almost any judgement.
Avoiding labels and stereotypes.
I find it amazing that modern liberastic "intelligetsia" screams against a monument to Big Three in Moscow, because "there should be no monuments to Stalin". Imagine that photo from Yalta with FDR and sir Winston w/o JVS. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Boroda
Stalin was a tremendous chatacter. A tyrant, but a creator of all we posess now. A person that is above almost any judgement.
However with the examples of the purges and the Ukraine famine of the 1930's, he believed in a rather draconian scorched earth policy before he built anything.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Kruschev denounced Stalin at a Party Congress in ... like 1954.
Just a few years after Stalin's death anyway. Kind of shocked the system.
1956. XX Party congress.
All monuments and other stuff mentioning Stalin was removed in one night, May 1st 1960 IIRC.
It is funny. Like a Stalin's quote carved in marble on one of the subway stations, and a shallow hole where the signature was.
Breaking the "cult of personality" was IMHO nessessary. But an attempt to "wipe out" was pretty stupid. Like renaming Stalingrad to Volgograd. Even renaming ot back to Tsaritryn (the city of Empress) was not enough for them, because Stalin took part in Tsatitsyn battle in Civil War...
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sounds like a whole lotta fun.
:aok
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
However with the examples of the purges and the Ukraine famine of the 1930's, he believed in a rather draconian scorched earth policy before he built anything.
under Stalin starvation ended. Last "hunger" happened in 1947. In Russian Empire bad harvests resulted in mass starvation every 5-10 years. And don't tell me about Ukrainian "famine". My family is from that places.
Does anyone remember how many people died at the same time in Volga region? "Famine" is a slogan for Ukrainian nationalists.
"If we'll not build up in 10 years - we'll be crushed". And he was damn right. From a country where industrial workers we no more then 1% of population, where literacy was even more rare - he created a Soviet Empire that could compete with US for 50 years after his death...
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I do support the present government's efforts in Chechnya. Putin has a blank check as far as I am concerned. Those who machine gun school children do not deserve independance, they deserve death.
But regarding Stalin.
Originally posted by Boroda
he created a Soviet Empire that could compete with US for 50 years after his death...
Militarily, yes.
Economically no.
When the Soviet Union finally collapsed, it's economic power was on par with the Dutch.
The Dutch... with a population of 15 million.
So because there was only mass starvation in the 30's and late 40's you must consider Stalin's policies to be successful. And the purges were okay.
You don't have to agree with me, but it's quicker.
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Military part was nessessary to survive, I think it's hard to doubt.
Economically? The whole country was rebuilt after 1945 in 10 years.
Later irresponsible politicians like that bastard Gorbachev destroyed the country. And the burden of cold war was too heavy to any existing nation. Over 50% of economics was working for defence.
It's sad, but now we live on what was built or planned before 1953 :(
Stalinism = resposibility according to authority. The regime we need badly now.
Back to the topic: Stalin invented the most humanistic solution for Chechens. Russian Imperial Army fought them for 50 years, and developed a much more cruel but effective method. The problem is that they understand humanism and good will as weakness. They are literally prehistoric savages. There are no words in Chechen language for numbers, they use Russian numerals. Chechen talk is like "Arararararara boots ararararara two tractors arararara automat". :(
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Originally posted by JB88
didnt kruschev get pretty much wiped off the history books too?
neg. we had him in the school :D
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Originally posted by Pongo
anyone that would give russians free reign to do what ever they want doenst know much about what russians have done.
HAHAH that is kind of a joke considering other things from history.
The native Americans??
The Slave Trade??
The British Empire??
Nazi Germany??
should we hold a grudge against Italy for the death of Christ?
Every Russian i have met has been polite, educated, kind, generous, GREAT FUN to drink with, and most importantly, totaly forgiving of the conflicts between all our great countries from the past.
America has done some pretty nasty things in the past too, i advise you get over this anti-Russian vibe bro it aint helpfull considering the efforts all great nations have made for peace these last few decades....
the chechens?? fair enough they want their independance, but the should pay a heavy price for the last 15 odd years of bloodshed.
you would think the same if it was an american school.
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I never have had a problem with how the Russians deal with the Chechyans.
But I expect the Russians to not have a problem with how the Israeli's deal with the Palestinians
The problem is, such methods aren't effective.
Israel is often touted as having the best anti-terrorist methods and forces, but when you look at the record, it's not particulary impressive.
Israel has been fighting their war against terrorism for 50 years. Each of the last 4 years have been the worst since at least 1950.
If you're still fighting after 50 years, and suffering more casualties than ever, I don't think the policies can be described as successfull.
Russia has been fighting in Chechnya for the last 14 years, again the conflict is becoming more extreme. Such methods aren't working, and never do in the long term.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Russia has been fighting in Chechnya for the last 14 years, again the conflict is becoming more extreme. Such methods aren't working, and never do in the long term.
10 years last December.
Until our brass-hats understood that it is WAR and stopped pretending to be "civilized Europeans" - the situation got more or less under control.
Everyone knows about school in Beslan. Noone understands that before 1999 there were not only 300 kids killed, but 300,000. All non-native population suffered from bloody gangsters.
Russian Empire fought for 50 years to teach them to behave.
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Originally posted by mechanic
HAHAH that is kind of a joke considering other things from history.
The native Americans??
The Slave Trade??
The British Empire??
Nazi Germany??
should we hold a grudge against Italy for the death of Christ?
Every Russian i have met has been polite, educated, kind, generous, GREAT FUN to drink with, and most importantly, totaly forgiving of the conflicts between all our great countries from the past.
America has done some pretty nasty things in the past too, i advise you get over this anti-Russian vibe bro it aint helpfull considering the efforts all great nations have made for peace these last few decades....
.
Man very well said mechanic
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History is for studying, learning and remembering.
We should never forget who russians are and where they come from. I will never trust them.
Having said that, I have a couple quite close russian friends of whom I obviously have nothing bad to say about.. But the nation.. :eek:
Such big problems, gigantic economical and ecological disaster, high crime and corruption.. You figure it out.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I sure hope you Russians get that 'tard before he pulls another Beslan.
Otoh I dont understand why the Russians are back in Chechyna. Whats so bad about letting those people rule themselves?
Economics.
The Russians can't afford to let Chechyna go. Big oil reserves if memory serves me.
Same reason (economics, not oil) the Union couldn't let the Confederacy leave.
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Originally posted by Raider179
hmmm thats all against chechneyans in a warzone. I see nothing similar to going into a schoolhouse while it is in session, seizing hostages, then detonating the place. Lots of those "atrocities" the russians committed were done in battle and open war zones. Not that that is any excuse but I dont find the similarity. I will concede however that Russia has committed questionable acts in chechneya. But again I see none that equal this schoolhouse attack, or the the theatre situation, or the bombing of those 2 russian planes.
Sorry but I am not gonna show sympathy to the chechneyan's when they shield and protect someone that plans attacks such as these. Previously I would have held the russians accountable for such acts on the battlefield with deliberate targeted killing of civilians but after reading this guy saying he is gonna do it again I say do whatever you have to to kill this SOB.
No sorry.
You are right, Raider. It's the war zone.
I wonder what kind of "support" to the "freedom fighters" did the residents of Samashki provide. Official USA sources does not disclose it. Can it be that it was the fire support?
And Budennovsk ! Where the "freedom fighters" seized a hospital, taking hostage the patients.
And Moscow theatre !
And the two Russian (civilian) passenger planes!
The Russian soldiers shed no tears before cameras when 119 Russian personnel perished in the shot down military helicopter.
The Russian soldiers prefer to destroy the enemy. And I would not recommend anyone to make a Russian soldier angry.
The so-called "freedom fighters" are the insane islamic extremists who would never accept their military defeat, which was obvious even before the war started. These islamic extremists are not different from those who wage the ambush war against American troops in Iraq and Afganistan. Actually, one of the brigades (formed of Muslim volunteers from around the globe) in Chechen army was under the command of one Huttab (KIA now), who had links leading to Osama bin Laden.
And BTW, GRUN in translation means 'green' . the colour of Islam.
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Originally posted by Yeager
what would happen if these chechens ever aquired a nuclear weapon?
Why cant the russian military defeat these soldiers? They do wear uniforms dont they??
They resort now to ambush and terrorist tactics.
They are hiding in bunkers in the forested hills, so it'll take a couple more years to kill or capture these small bands.
With a big degree of certainty I can say that now these soldiers often act on their own initiative because of very unstable communications throughout the chain of command.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
History is for studying, learning and remembering.
We should never forget who russians are and where they come from. I will never trust them.
Having said that, I have a couple quite close russian friends of whom I obviously have nothing bad to say about.. But the nation.. :eek:
Such big problems, gigantic economical and ecological disaster, high crime and corruption.. You figure it out.
The Russian nation is made up of the Russian people. You should talk more to your Russian friends. And do not mimic Cold War propaganda.
That's all.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Like I said. Dont know what the russians have done.
You are not correct.
Russian colonel Budanov killed a 18-years old Chechen girl. After the second trial he was sentenced to 10-years' imprisonment. He claimed temporary insanity, because he had thought at the time that the girl had been a rebel sniper, and was aquitted during the first trial.
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Originally posted by lada
well i agree .. did you ever see what are russian troops doing in Checna ?
May be you could have small problem to decide, who should be "******ed"
Plenty of Checnian here... plenty of our medical stuff worked overthere.
Russian army are not peace keeprs, not saint angles sent by god, nor sheep. Plenty of same pigs (as were in beslan) among them doing similary things in Checna.
But if you wish to go and fight in Checna, i wish you good luck.
Ladochka, go fondle yourself. Otherwise wait for the Russian occupants. I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun together with your beloved "freedom fighters". :D
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Originally posted by Boroda
A tyrant, but a creator of all we posess now.
Heheh, whoop-dee-do.
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
at least this time we hope the US will have the good sense to not get involved :mad:
cause you know who was our dear child in Afghanistan in the 80s
Yes, I know. Because I was never assigned to the funeral detail to pay my last respect to the comrades killed by your "dear children". I couldn't do that because for two years I was on the round the clock watch against the islamic extremists.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
You reap what you sow. The russian army has a history of warcrimes and unlawful attacks against civillians. I have knowledge only starting from WW2 but there must be more.
The cycle of revenge goes on and on.
That said, I have seen a few of the execution videos (beheadings) performed by chechens and it made me feel angry even knowing the ones executed had blood on their hands too.
To tell you the truth, I'd be quite happy to see the world without BOTH of them.
Yeah, that sounds good. :aok
Hey, Siaf,
What small country do you have the misfortune to live in ? Oops ! Don't bother to answer. To hell with that Western Europe ! I a c c i d e n t a l l y pushed that red button. :eek:
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Originally posted by JB88
wasnt stalin virtually erased from the history books over there at some point?
i find it odd to be reading a defense of the man, if not wholly unsettling.
Strange as it may seem, but under the leadership of the dear Comrade Stalin the Soviet Army saved several Slavic nations from the German total genocide. So, JB, as I said a couple of days ago (not in public), there's gonna be in fifty years a monument erected to the Great Generalissimo Joseph Stalin.
Strange. But true. Uncle Joe sacrificed several millions (!) of people to ultimately save several hundred million people.
P.S. Strange as it may seem, but my lines about the monument were teletyped before I read the post by Boroda about the monuments.
Boroda, telepathic link established. :rofl
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Hey, Siaf,
What small country do you have the misfortune to live in ? Oops ! Don't bother to answer. To hell with that Western Europe ! I a c c i d e n t a l l y pushed that red button.
Heh you hit the nail in the head. The whole world is worried about your nuclear arsenal and it's horrible maintenance. What happened to those 20 suitcase nukes again? Oh they are missing. :rolleyes:
What happened to those outcommissioned nuclear submarines in Murmansk? Oh, they were left there to corrode along with flooded reactors.
Or why aren't there trees alive in several mile radius around some of your industrial cities? Why is the life expectancy of people living there 55 years? It must be your enviromental awareness taking place.
I can walk to russia today and buy basically whatever I want. With the corruption and poverty that you have, basically everything is for sale.
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Originally posted by genozaur
Strange as it may seem, but under the leadership of the dear Comrade Stalin the Soviet Army saved several Slavic nations from the German total genocide. So, JB, as I said a couple of days ago (not in public), there's gonna be in fifty years a monument erected to the Great Generalissimo Joseph Stalin.
Strange. But true. Uncle Joe sacrificed several millions (!) of people to ultimately save several hundred million people.
P.S. Strange as it may seem, but my lines about the monument were teletyped before I read the post by Boroda about the monuments.
Boroda, telepathic link established. :rofl
Thought they decided against the statue.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Heh you hit the nail in the head. The whole world is worried about your nuclear arsenal and it's horrible maintenance. What happened to those 20 suitcase nukes again? Oh they are missing. :rolleyes:
What happened to those outcommissioned nuclear submarines in Murmansk? Oh, they were left there to corrode along with flooded reactors.
Or why aren't there trees alive in several mile radius around some of your industrial cities? Why is the life expectancy of people living there 55 years? It must be your enviromental awareness taking place.
I can walk to russia today and buy basically whatever I want. With the corruption and poverty that you have, basically everything is for sale.
Arent suitcase nukes impossible to create. you need so much nuclear material, then you need so much conventional explosives, then you need all the electronics. Thought I remember seeing an "expert" say something along those lines.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Until our brass-hats understood that it is WAR and stopped pretending to be "civilized Europeans" - the situation got more or less under control.
Boroda is entertaining on SO many different levels.
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Originally posted by Toad
Boroda is entertaining on SO many different levels.
Toad, sorry again. I meant "When our brass-hats understood" etc.
You see, we, Asian Jewish bolsheviks on our shaggy mounts sometimes make mistakes :D
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Originally posted by genozaur
Boroda, telepathic link established. :rofl
ATDP 03
;)
Гена, вдвоём красным флагом махать гораздо веселее :)
Ты на русских флайтсим-форумах бываешь? ввв.вбфрее.нет тебе знаком? Я специально пишу кириллицей - обещал тут не рекламировать, я и так "дебильный коммунистический ублюдок" :D
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Originally posted by Raider179
Arent suitcase nukes impossible to create. you need so much nuclear material, then you need so much conventional explosives, then you need all the electronics. Thought I remember seeing an "expert" say something along those lines.
A 152/155mm (6") nuclear artillery shells do exist. That's why artillery systems bigger then 150mm are limited by international treaties.
Anyway, people who seriously say the some nucelar weapons can be "lost" (sorry, they can be lost if we speak about USAF) or "stolen". People saying this simply can't imagine a level of security around nuclear weapons.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Heh you hit the nail in the head. The whole world is worried about your nuclear arsenal and it's horrible maintenance. What happened to those 20 suitcase nukes again? Oh they are missing. :rolleyes:
What suitcase nukes? Who is worried about Russian nuclear arsenal? Go find all hydrogen bombs that USAF lost first, then you can start complaining.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
What happened to those outcommissioned nuclear submarines in Murmansk? Oh, they were left there to corrode along with flooded reactors.
Corroded with flooded reactors? As if reactors are left running forever ;) Last year a sub that sunk when towed was a "Kit" class ("November") boat, older then you probably are. It was still afloat, with reactor unloaded and decontamicated, and sunk in a Polar storm only because of violation of all towing instructions.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Or why aren't there trees alive in several mile radius around some of your industrial cities? Why is the life expectancy of people living there 55 years? It must be your enviromental awareness taking place.
May I tell you one great secret? Have you ever been to Magnitogorsk? It's probably the city with worst ecological situation in whole Russia. And there are indeed no trees around this city, for at least 50-100km. Because it's in Southern Urals steppe. Trees don't grow there. So it goes. Same thing in Monchegorsk, Nikel and Norilsk, only because this cities are in tundra. Мимо тазика.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I can walk to russia today and buy basically whatever I want. With the corruption and poverty that you have, basically everything is for sale.
Please tell me where can I go and buy 20 200g TNT bars and (more important) 5 detonators. I'll appreciate it, seriously.
I can make a horror excursion in dirty slums and drug brothels for any foreigner in Moscow. I can show you horrible things, but I prefer to see good side of the life, because all the crap can be found anywhere. Where you see ruined villages - I see nice people and great nature, I have travelled all over USSR from Carpathian mountains to Baikal, and from Crimea to Polar mountains. I bet you can see crap in amy country.
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Entertaining on so many levels. I enjoy it when you praise Russian for actually doing thing the US would never do.
All the while accusing and condeming the US for doing those same things while knowing we don't actually do them like the Russians do.
Boroda, you're comedy gold!
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Originally posted by Toad
Entertaining on so many levels. I enjoy it when you praise Russian for actually doing thing the US would never do.
All the while accusing and condeming the US for doing those same things while knowing we don't actually do them like the Russians do.
Boroda, you're comedy gold!
Thanks Toad, you are a great example of almost 24/7 radio transmitting Party Line.
Chechnya is our land. Over 50% of the republic are Cossack lands. Do you know who Cossacks are? Russian Federation is a souverign country, and we are free to follow our own laws, and enforce them on our own land.
Unilke Russia in Chechnya - US started an aggressive war and occupied an independant country of Iraq, overthrew it's internationaly recognised and democratically elected government without any reasonable casus belly, only hallucinations about imaginary "WMD".
If Iraq have done what chechens have done to Russia - I think you'll nuke the whole country with all innicent population. A Budyonnovsk attack when terrorists held 1500 hostages in a maternity hospital (!!!), new-born kids and pregnant women, could be enough.
BTW, today it's one year to Moscow subway bombing. One stop from where I change lines...
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Irrespective of whose land is whose, you praise and encourage the brutality of the Russian methods.
While the US does not and would never use the brutal methods your politicians and military commanders routinely use, you continually accuse the US of using those methods and condemn the US for doing so.
As I said, you're comedy gold.
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Toad, Phil Hendrie is comedy gold. Boroda is comedy bronze.
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What is the point of this conversation.
Those f@ckers should not be on this planet.
Chechnya,Iraq exe.
If Russians wiped out Afghanistan in 1980's,we would not have that problem.
But USA just had to give Afghani's weapons,and train to use them.
And here we go.Bin Ladden trained by US forces is biggest hemorrhoid of this planet.
Russia no better than USA,USA no better Russia.
Mistakes have been made.
How many civilians dead in Iraq?Do you think they free know?Did those who still alive tell you that they want to be free?
Somebody opened mouth and said something about Russian brutality.We managed to survive for few thousand years,trying to organize our own shi@,but somebody always had to fu@k with us !!!Mongolians,France,Germans(numerous times) exe.
Instead of working together(USA and Russia) we are shi# on each other,we should fix those mistakes not judge them.
Russians cant be trusted!LOL.
Did you just climb out of fallout shelter?
whomever is reading this should not take this post personaly.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Thanks Toad, you are a great example of almost 24/7 radio transmitting Party Line.
Well, Nuke, I haven't seen/heard Hendrie but lines like this one above just break me up.
Boroda... MR. PARTY LINE... accusing someone else of parrotting "the party line" 24/7!
Does it get any better?
And the "Stalin was a great guy.. he didn't slaughter all those folks!" routine... more comedy gold.
Perhaps his best though is the total denial of Katyn Forest after all the major Russian politicos have admitted it and apologized to the Poles.
His mantel must be full of comedy awards by now; it probably sags from the weight.
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Originally posted by Toad
Irrespective of whose land is whose, you praise and encourage the brutality of the Russian methods.
While the US does not and would never use the brutal methods your politicians and military commanders routinely use, you continually accuse the US of using those methods and condemn the US for doing so.
As I said, you're comedy gold.
Toad, where did I support brutality?
Genozaur already mentioned col. Budanov who was sentenced 10 years for killing a Chechen sniper girl...
Do you have evidence from Chechnya from Russian side that comes close to Abu Gharib materials?!
Videos from Chechnya that you had a chance to see were made by "freedom fighters" that your country supports. Cutting fingers and heads off is their method. This creatures deserve what they got. We didn't start it.
One question: does Russian Federation give political asylum to Iraqi insurgents?...
Why not use your "democratic rights" and not to ask your authorities why they harbour known terrorists?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Do you have evidence from Chechnya from Russian side that comes close to Abu Gharib materials?!
No, I have evidence from Chechnya from Russian side that GOES FAR, FAR BEYOND Abu Gharib materials.
But of course you, Mr. 24/7 Party Line Radio, will deny it just as you deny Russian responsibility for the Katyn Forest massacre. This despite the fact that documentation of Stalin's order to kill the Poles exists and is public knowledge. This despite the fact that both Gorbachev and Putin admitted Russias guilt. (I know, they are both secret agents for the West... or some such drivel.)
Russia Buries Evidence of Atrocities (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2001/05/15/russia119.htm)
In late February, fifty-one bodies were found in Dachny, an abandoned village less than one kilometer from the main Russian military base in Chechnya.
According to the report, of the nineteen victims whose corpses were identified by relatives, sixteen were last seen as Russian federal forces took them into custody. Two weeks later, the authorities buried the rest of the bodies without prior notice and without performing adequate autopsies or collecting crucial evidence that would have helped to identify the perpetrators.
The Russian government failed to provide help or resources for the only forensic examiner for Chechnya, whose only tools were a scalpel and a pair of rubber gloves.
Russia denies Chechnya atrocity (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/656550.stm)
Russian officials have described a video showing mutilated bodies in a mass grave as propaganda - but the Kremlin says it needs further investigation.
The footage shot by a German journalist shows bodies, thought to be of Chechen fighters, wrapped in barbed wire. Russian soldiers are seen throwing one body into the grave from a tank, dragging another behind a truck and burying the corpses in a shallow pit.
Russian Atrocities in Chechnya Detailed (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2000/06/02/russia611.htm)
On February 5, 2000, Russian forces engaged in widespread killing, arson, rape and looting in Aldi. The victims included an eighty-two-year-old woman, and a one-year-old-boy with his twenty-nine-year-old mother, who was eight months pregnant. The 46-page report criticizes the failure of the Russian authorities to undertake a credible investigation into the massacre and provide adequate protection for witnesses.
Human Rights Watch previously documented the events in Aldi in a February 23 press release, but the new report documents in detail the killings of forty of the victims, along with six cases of rape, and the widespread arson and looting of civilian homes.
I could go on, of course. There's tons of documented examples out there. Reminds one of the Red Army's glory days when they raped their way across Germany.
Let me be clear on this: The Chechen tactics are equally bad. The Beslan incident shows them to be the typical Muslim extremists; atrocity is their stock in trade. (Of course, when we face these same tactics in Iraq, you can excuse them.)
However, for you to pretend that your Russian politicoes and soliders have not shown the worst side of man's nature in Chechnya is laughable.
Another "comedy gold" moment for you.
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Arent suitcase nukes impossible to create. you need so much nuclear material, then you need so much conventional explosives, then you need all the electronics. Thought I remember seeing an "expert" say something along those lines.
You don't need a thermonuclear explosion to cause damage..
A few pounds of high-active material, a few pounds of explosives and you get a 'dirty bomb' capable of radiating millions of people.
I really don't know what kind of BS they're feeding to Boroda.. Just a couple years ago the CIA caught russians who were trying to sell nukes to the highest bidder.
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Don't forget that that CIA started terrorism by training Afghani's so they could fight Russians.Oh yes!!,How could i forget they trained them how to make bombs,bombs that blew up so many civilians in both countries.
How come Americans always avoid to mention that:)
Again,nothing personal.
-----------------------------
Oh my God.I've created a monster!!!
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The US started terrorism?
Let's see... you're second post... no location listed........
gotta be a troll. No one, in any country, is that uneducated.
Ooops.... there's Boroda.
NM.
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Chechnya also known as a hostage taker.For money.
For past 200 years there were many people(Russians),sitting in a hole waiting till they relative come up with a money to pay ransom.They would get a finger each week,you retards only seen fingers attached to a hand.I'm talking about chopped off fingers.
What do you know about Chechnya or Russia.You know it only from the TV,you read you f#cking newspaper and judge.
Human rights my ass.
Russia suffered from a lot of bull**** for 2000 years.WW2 we lost 30 million people. Where were our human rights then?
Germany lucky that it still exists.
Yes we raped our way thry Berlin,small price for 30 mill dead.
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Who will come to our land with a sword,will die from a sword.
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Blow me,who cares how mane posts i have?
Yes US started that ****,read a book.
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I've read quite a few books.
Perhaps you haven't.
If you had, you'd know that terrorism was around long before either Russia or the US were even countries.
Human rights my ass
From this I guessed you were Russian.
Yes we raped our way thry Berlin,small price for 30 mill dead.
From this I figured you MUST be Russian. Peculiarly, Russians seem obsessed with being more brutal than their enemies and seem to take pride in that.
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Originally posted by mechanic
America has done some pretty nasty things in the past too, i advise you get over this anti-Russian vibe bro it aint helpfull considering the efforts all great nations have made for peace these last few decades....
the chechens?? fair enough they want their independance, but the should pay a heavy price for the last 15 odd years of bloodshed.
you would think the same if it was an american school.
Pongo is of the Canadian persuasion.
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Originally posted by Boroda
ATDP 03
;)
Гена, вдвоём красным флагом махать гораздо веселее :)
Ты на русских флайтсим-форумах бываешь? ввв.вбфрее.нет тебе знаком? Я специально пишу кириллицей - обещал тут не рекламировать, я и так "дебильный коммунистический ублюдок" :D
Gene, together a red flag to wave much more cheerfully
You at Russian флайтсим-forums are? ввв.вбфрее.нет to you it is familiar? I specially write cyrillics - I promised to not advertise here, and so " дебильный the communistic mongrel
hmm...
drunken gibberish! ;) :D
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Yes,what a mind!You got me,I'm Russian,proud to be one as you of course proud to be an American,its all good.
What are you talking about,Terrorism before Russia was a country?:)
Russia was around for 2000 years or so.I never knew they had bombs back then.Read some more books.
I'm talking about banana head Bin Ladden.Trained and given American weapons by US and left when USSR fall apart.He kept the weapons tho.
-------------------------
From this I figured you MUST be Russian. Peculiarly, Russians seem obsessed with being more brutal than their enemies and seem to take pride in that.
-------------------------
That is exactly why for 2000 years RUSSIA remains undefeated,and we have had many wars.We've seen enemy,we've seen enemy bombers on our territory.
If you saw what we seen,you'd be talking just like me.
We are not looking for enemies,THEY looking for us.
Speaking of being more brutal to enemies,thats true.
If i had a chance to cut off Bin Ladens head,I'd be very proud of that.
But you missed the point.
Why RUSSIA and USA have to be enemy?They don't,we need to fix mistakes that we made instead of judging them.
You seem to hate Russians for a reason you cant explain.You need to get out more often.
Please don't get offended.
Best regards.
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Lot of rus-eng translators websites out there,still you couldnt translate all of it.
If you just asked i could gladly do it for you.
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By the way.
Zbignev Bzezhinski in an interview to French Le Nouvel Observateur said: According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujaheddin began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, Dec. 24, 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it On July 3, 1979 US President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul...We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would. The day the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war...
The Soviet occupation of Afghanistan was indeed Vietnam-like in its brutality, killing more than a million Afghans and helping to tear apart a country that in 1979 had relatively little religious fanaticism and was making advances in the status of women. In the upheaval, Afghanistan became a base for terrorists.
When Ronald Reagan came to office in 1981, he maintained the Carter emphasis on the Persian Gulf-Arabian Peninsula sector that followed the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. But his approach to the Middle East and its problems derived from a set of assumptions that were quite different from the initial assumptions of the Carter administration and were much closer to the assumptions after the Afghanistan invasion. Reagan held that the fundamental threat to peace and stability in the region was not the Arab-Israeli conflict but the Soviet Union and its policies. It was therefore important to restore American capability and credibility which could be facilitated by building up American forces to deal with the region. Unlike Carter, he assumed that the main focus of American interests and concern in the Middle East was the Persian Gulf sector, including Afghanistan which could pose a direct threat to the security of the Gulf. Reagan's policy toward Afghanistan maintained that while the United States would employ no military forces of its own, given, in part, that it was unable to secure the support of its allies, it would nonetheless provide aid to the Afghan rebels to pressure the Soviet Union to withdraw its forces.
On March 1982 Reagan gave a speech, in which he proclaimed March 21st to be an Afghanistan Day throughought the United States.
In many ways, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the United States’ subsequent support of the mujahidin resistance was another round of the Afghan “Great Game.” The “Great Game” portrays Central Asia, and specifically Afghanistan, as the region where “international superpower struggles” occur.
The mujahidin were a mix of Afghan resistance fighters, Afghan refugees who had crossed into Pakistan at the onset of the Soviet invasion and later been recruited to fight the Soviet infidels, and Islamists and Muslims from other Arab nations who answered the international call to jihad against the Soviets. Contrary to popular myth, most of the mujahidin were not Islamic radicals, but rather a group of loosely allied Afghan tribes. Two main portions of the mujahidin, however, were Islamic fundamentalists.
The mujahidin received significant financial and military support from various nations and individuals. The United States supported the mujahidin primarily through the CIA. This was controversial because the mujahidin clearly were not any more accepting of American modernity and culture then they were of the Soviet modernity. But, compared to the risks of the Soviet threat, "the relatively new threat of Islamic fundamentalism" was inconsequential, and "fighting communism was still first and foremost in the minds of U.S. policymakers" (Hartman). This was dictated by the Cold War world geopolitical code – defeating communism was part of the daily U.S. foreign policy routine on the global scale. Consequently, "The U.S. ignored the threat of Islamism and used it as a bulwark against communism and revolution" in Afghanistan.
---------------------------------
We are not that different after all
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/204_1099100867_thread_direction.gif)
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i could not agree more
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Originally posted by ATA
What are you talking about,Terrorism before Russia was a country?:)
Russia was around for 2000 years or so.I never knew they had bombs back then.Read some more books.
The founding of Novgorod in 862 by the Viking Rurik of Jutland is traditionally taken as the birth of what became the Russian state.
You're saying there were no terroristic acts prior to 892?
You need to read some more books instead of eating the covers.
If you saw what we seen,you'd be talking just like me.
No, never. It's not our way.
As I said, you seem to glory in your ability to be more brutal than anyone else. Thanks for proving it.
You seem to hate Russians for a reason you cant explain.
On the contrary, I don't hate "Russians" at all. In fact, I try not to hate at all.
But brutality such as both the Russians and the Chechens have shown in Chechnya sickens and disgusts me. Thus its rather hard for me to respect those that glory in it or try to justify it like you do.
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All that humanity comes from a sitizen of a country that killed indians and inslaved half of africa.
"We dont hate" its not "our way" bla-bla-bla,everyone or most of US sitizens wants iraq dead.
Sick of you
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And yes,brutality is the key.Bin laden flew into twins,US killed 200000 iraqis,i dont blame US for that.I bet they wont fly US's planes ever again.
May be USA shoud just take 2 planes and fly them into 2 iraqis bilding.LOL
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Originally posted by ATA
All that humanity comes from a sitizen of a country that killed indians and inslaved half of africa.
"We dont hate" its not "our way" bla-bla-bla,everyone or most of US sitizens wants iraq dead.
Sick of you
Lol!
Been eating the covers of your history books again, I see.
The US became a nation in 1776. Do a bit of research and discover for yourself when most of the native tribes of the Americas were decimated. (Hint: it was well before 1776.)
Further, do a bit of research on the slave trade. See who started that one.
US citizens want Iraq dead?
Really? Is that why we're currently sending our sons to die to protect Iraqis while they democratically vote for the representatives of the assembly that will draft the new Iraqi constitution?
Is that why we'er pouring billions of dollars into Iraq to rebuild a country where Saddam could afford to sponsor a (projected) $2 Billion "Great Mosque" but he couldn't provide electricity of all fo Baghdad?
No, we don't want them dead. We want them happy, healthy and prosperous. We want them to be the envy of the common man in Syria, Iran and Saudia. Think about it, it'll come to you. Well, it will if you read those books instead of eating the covers.
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Originally posted by ATA
Bin laden flew into twins,US killed 200000 iraqis,i dont blame US for that.
I bet they wont fly US's planes ever again.
Let's see. You maintain we killed 200,000 Iraqis. Document that, please. Just a link to some reputable sources will be fine.
Further you suggest that by killing Iraqis we have intimidated Bin Laden? That, although the hijackers were Saudis, our attack on Iraq has unmanned them?
You've got to start actually READING books and news. Good luck to you!
-
Toad, why even bother with that moron?
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Well,originaly i was talking about terorism as it exists today,but you turned this conversation into "eating book covers".
You went 2000 years back to Novgorod when they never heard of Bin lAdden.I was talking CIA but you went somewhere else.....
You probly never heard about bodyes with apples instead of guts,skeened alive,crusifide with no hands and legs russian 18 yrs old solders.You cant just be brutal by nature,you brutal for reason.
I've seen it,you have not.You still need to do some research about all this.
By the way,i was in chechnia.i was 19,i did not torture anyone.
Please dont give me spelling lesson.
I hope this conversation is over
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Blow me NUKE.
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ATA, this is the one and only repsonse I will ever give you.
I think you are a moron. No other response from me.
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Thats cool,NUKE.I still think you shuold blow me.No need to reply endeed
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Originally posted by Boroda
ATDP 03
;)
Гена, вдвоём красным флагом махать гораздо веселее :)
Ты на русских флайтсим-форумах бываешь? ввв.вбфрее.нет тебе знаком? Я специально пишу кириллицей - обещал тут не рекламировать, я и так "дебильный коммунистический ублюдок" :D
Moy flag krasniy-zolotoy-siniy. No ya pomniu krasniye vremena.
Na drugikh websitakh prakticheski nie byvayu, da i zdes' tol'ko momentami. Zaniat prinuditel'nym trudom plius dvigayu vperiod nauku. Vizhu, kak tut dolboyoby raspoyasalis', poetomu inogda vstupayu v discussiyu. ;)
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Toad,
Most acts of war appear inappropriate when witnessed from the safety of one's living room.
They live with that reality daily - i've been to Russia twice this year. Lets treat people with respect for a change.
Regards,
Wolf
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Originally posted by ATA
Well,originaly i was talking about terorism as it exists today,
[/b]
Well, that's what you say NOW. You didn't specify previously.
but you turned this conversation into "eating book covers".
Let's see.. you tell ME to read some books yet you post some obviously completely wrong information. I have to assume you've not been reading books. If you don't eat the covers, perhaps you're wiping your bum with the pages. Either way, you don't seem to have learned much.
You went 2000 years back to Novgorod
Here's a great example you've repeated. You say
Russia was around for 2000 years or so.I never knew they had bombs back then.Read some more books.
[/b]
However, the historically accepted birth of the Russian state is the founding Novgorod in 862 by the Viking Rurik of Jutland.
Let's see 2005 - 862 = ?
You do the math. (Clue: the answer is not anywhere near "2000 years". It's a bit more than half that. Clue #2: READ the math book before you use it to wipe your bum.)
You probly never heard about bodyes with apples instead of guts,skeened alive,crusifide with no hands and legs russian 18 yrs old solders.You cant just be brutal by nature,you brutal for reason.
[/b]
Heard about it, seen pictures of it in Afghanistan. However, brutality on the part of your enemy does not mean you must lower yourself to his level. It most CERTAINLY doesn't mean that if you do lower yourself to his level you should be proud of it.... as you are.
You become your enemy when you do that. Probably a tough concept for you to realize, though. See... you're no better than they are when you do those same things. Did that help? No? Well, perhaps more reading for you.
I hope this conversation is over
I guess that depends on whether or not you're done spouting foolish nonsense.
Note to Nuke: You can't let these guys post such Bullshirt without pointing it out. You've heard the old saw about the Big Lie oft repeated.
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Originally posted by ATA
Thats cool,NUKE.I still think you shuold blow me.No need to reply endeed
With your apparent personality, savoir faire, inherent charm and incredible ability to carry on polite conversation, it looks to me like that's about your only hope of having sex with anything other than a runimant animal.
Keep trying though.
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Wolf, you equate this with an "act of war"?
TORTURE AND SUMMARY EXECUTION (http://hrw.org/reports/2001/chechnya/Disapfin-04.htm#P597_130226)
The February 2001 discovery of a mass grave containing at least sixty corpses near the Khankala military base created a sensation in the Russian and international media. It was by far not the first of its kind.
Human Rights Watch has documented eight unmarked graves, all found in 2000 and 2001. Memorial Human Rights Center has documented at least one more unmarked grave.155
Human Rights Watch has also documented eight cases when dead bodies were simply dumped by road sides, on hospital grounds or elsewhere. The Memorial Human Rights Center has documented numerous additional cases.
The majority of the bodies showed signs of severe mutilation, including flaying or scalping, broken limbs, severed finger tips and ears, and close range bullet wounds typical of summary executions. Examinations by medical doctors of some of these bodies have revealed that some of the deliberate mutilations were inflicted while the detainees were still alive.
Mass Dumping Site at Dachny Village, near Khankala
At least sixty dead bodies had been recovered from the abandoned summer cottage village of Dachny, less than a kilometer from Khankala military base, as of mid-March 2001.
The overwhelming majority of the corpses-mostly male and ranging in age from eighteen to fifty years-were dressed in civilian clothes, had their hands tied behind their backs and had gunshot wounds. At least thirteen of the bodies belonged to people who were known to have been detained by Russian federal forces and subsequently "disappeared."
TORTURE AND SUMMARY EXECUTION (http://hrw.org/reports/2001/chechnya/Disapfin-04.htm#P597_130226)
There's incredible "dirt" on both sides in the Chechen conflict. I don't see how anyone could take pride in sinking to these levels.
I know it happens. Happened on our side in VietNam; the My Lai incident. You sure as heck don't hear Americans bragging proudly about that shameful day.
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Polite?Didnt he call me moron ?
Still 2000 years or so.......again...i said "so",how many times you pointed out my "illiteracy",is that polite?
Instead of copy and paste try to answer the questions.
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It makes you happy to point out corrupted russians.I'm sure you much better than that.
i said few times before that we should fix mistakes not judge them,you are the only who seem to disagree.
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genozaur.
Ya zhivu v providence.Tozhe delat' ne hira.
Ne znayu pochemu ya vyazalsya v etot spor,vse ravno hren che dokazhesh.
Moy flag Armyanskiy:)
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Originally posted by Toad
I've read quite a few books.
Perhaps you haven't.
If you had, you'd know that terrorism was around long before either Russia or the US were even countries.
From this I guessed you were Russian.
From this I figured you MUST be Russian. Peculiarly, Russians seem obsessed with being more brutal than their enemies and seem to take pride in that.
Toad, the Russian people have been fighting militant islamists for about 1,150 (one thousand one hundred fifty) years.
So, every Russian kid knows that the Russian Army is fighting in order to eliminate inhuman predators (a.k.a. Chechen rebels).
And every Russian soldier fighting in Chechnya knows too well that this war is not a chivalric deed, nor is it a gentlemen's boxing match.
When Russian people are engaged in a war against a mercyless enemy, they know that it is
criminally stupid to let that enemy enjoy the privilege of gentlemen's rules of war.
In this respect I can reiterate the anekdote about a British general who crushed a Muslim 'independence' uprising somewhere in the South-East Asia using simple and effective "strategy". That general ordered that the captured insurgents be shot by the firing squad, their dead bodies rolled up into pig skins and buried in the pits filled with pig dung at the undisclosed locations in the jungles. In this case there is 100% guarantee that the so-called 'martyrs' won't ever get to their Muslim paradise. So, the uprising ended in six months.
You are against such measures. So, please, brace yourself up for another suicide attack.
Because these fathersuckers understand only the overwhelming force. Anything less than that is seen by them as your weakness, i.e. the license for them to humiliate and kill you.
If you don't dig it after all that happened in recent years around the world (I mean all the terrorist activity), you better really shut up, or, as I used to recommend, stick your tongue into
your ace-hole. This may help the rest of the world.
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Originally posted by ATA
Polite?Didnt he call me moron ?
Still 2000 years or so.......again...i said "so",how many times you pointed out my "illiteracy",is that polite?
Instead of copy and paste try to answer the questions.
You poor soul. Reading isn't a strong point for you, is it?
I've never called anyone a moron on this board. I don't use ad hominem.
Reread the thread and you'll see who called you that.
I can't help it if you continue to confuse 2000 years with 1143 years.
I suppose you think they're the same number? BTW, you ever find any evidence of the US directly killing 200,000 Iraqis? Didn't think so.
Also, if you check, you'll find YOU said:
Blow me,who cares how mane posts i have?
Yes US started that ****,read a book.
That was the first instance of being impolite here. Of course it was YOU that was impolite. You not only offered a sexual insult but you added an "illiteracy" comment.
So you have only yourself to blame.
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I just realized that with my ingl i cant win this conversation
-
Originally posted by ATA
It makes you happy to point out corrupted russians.I'm sure you much better than that.
i said few times before that we should fix mistakes not judge them,you are the only who seem to disagree.
If you struggle and reread my posts, you will note that I said the Chechens are just as bad. I also just pointed out that the US has had such incidents, as at My Lai. The difference, of course, is that we are not proud of brutality.
I don't disagree with fixing mistakes. Again, if it seems that way to you it's because you're having trouble reading.
I will suggest to you however that fixing mistakes will probably start with not being proud of those mistakes as you have said you are.
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Ok,may be you should start reading.
I was adressing to NUKE,NOT you.HE called me moron NOT you.
Now tell me that it was not US that started that shi@.
Instead of saying that i was wrong you telling me about politenes.
No more of that polite crap.
Every american who has russian freinds,would tell you to go F### yourself.
You dont know us,so F## off
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Originally posted by genozaur
When Russian people are engaged in a war against a mercyless enemy, they know that it is criminally stupid to let that enemy enjoy the privilege of gentlemen's rules of war.
[/b]
And just what does rapine and the murder of prisoners with hands tied behind their backs gain for the Russian people? Do tell.
Is raping the enemies women some sort of advanced military tactic?
In this respect I can reiterate the anekdote about a British general who crushed a Muslim 'independence' uprising somewhere in the South-East Asia using simple and effective "strategy".
[/b]
Sigh. That anecdote supposedly refers to General Pershing fighting against the Moros in the Phillipines.
Here, Snopes is your friend.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm
You are against such measures.
[/b]
Really? I am? And how do you know that? I said I was against brutality, such as what the Chechens and Russians have been doing to each other.
Anything more than that is an ASSumption on your part.
As Nashwan said though:
The problem when you get that attitude is you've entered a circle of atrocities. The Russians justify their actions because of what the Chechen's have done, the Chechen's justify their actions because of what the Russians have done.
Saying it's a war zone, therefore ok, misses the point, I think.
I'm fairly sure the Chechen parents who've lost their children won't simply shrug it off because their children were killed in "a war zone".
There is no justification for atrocities, and giving "permission" for a new set because of the previous set is only going to perpetuate matters.
-
Toad,
Its war - **** happens. And while we may try to strive for ways to prevent it from happening, the wrong people get killed - lives get shattered - and that is the way it has always been - and that is the way it will remain.
So unless you have some overarching solution to correct human nature irrespective of what nationality and doctrine of conflict is used - bite your tongue.
You are not impressing anyone.
Respectfully,
Wolf
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Originally posted by Toad
And just what does rapine and the murder of prisoners with hands tied behind their backs gain for the Russian people? Do tell.
Is raping the enemies women some sort of advanced military tactic?
[/b]
Sigh. That anecdote supposedly refers to General Pershing fighting against the Moros in the Phillipines.
Here, Snopes is your friend.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm
[/b]
Really? I am? And how do you know that? I said I was against brutality, such as what the Chechens and Russians have been doing to each other.
Anything more than that is an ASSumption on your part.
As Nashwan said though: [/B]
Toad, don't you understand that the Chechen "freedom fighters" are inhumane killers ?
The alternative to 'brutality, such as what the Chechens and Russians have been doing to each other' is the brutality by the Chechens against the Russians.
To preach for mutual humanism in this conflict is like accusing the soldiers of the Soviet and American armies in mistreatment of SS guards in the liberated by the Allies Nazi death camps.
-
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem when you get that attitude is you've entered a circle of atrocities. The Russians justify their actions because of what the Chechen's have done, the Chechen's justify their actions because of what the Russians have done.
Saying it's a war zone, therefore ok, misses the point, I think.
I'm fairly sure the Chechen parents who've lost their children won't simply shrug it off because their children were killed in "a war zone".
There is no justification for atrocities, and giving "permission" for a new set because of the previous set is only going to perpetuate matters.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now we need to find out who started first.
Toad said something about red army being brutal in WW2.
He still thing 30 million dead is not a good reason.
I'm sure all of those who never came back were fathers,sons,mothers exe.
Same goes to iraq,same goes to 'nam,same goes to any war.
People like him never understood what is a war.
He thinks people fight with peper spray or some shi# like that.
Like germans never raped russian women or kids,like Chechnians never torchured russians just for fun.
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Gen,
Don't you understand that trying to be more brutal than the the Chechens makes the Russians into the same kind of animals they accuse the Chechens of being?
You have become your enemy.
ATA,
There is no justification for unnecessary brutality. There's no way you can justify what the Red Army did to the women of Germany.
The Red Army became as bad as the Germans were.
Really something to be proud of, eh? They became as animalistic as the Nazis.
You two sound as foolish and wretched as I would if I were spouting off about how the Vietnamese at My Lai deserved what they got. They didn't. It was WRONG.
It's wrong when the Chechens do it, it's wrong when the Russians do it, it's wrong when anyone does it.
You've become as inhuman as the Chechens. Congratulations!
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There is no justification for unnecessary brutality. There's no way you can justify what the Red Army did to the women of Germany.
We became as bad as germans?
We didnt invade Germany,they invaded us.They raped our women they killed our fathers,and yet we let them live.
We didnt kill our prisoners,just couse they germans.
Again you judging people that you know nothing about.
Look at pictures of WW2,massive graves,death camps imagine yourself loosing every one of your relatives.
This is the first time you didnt recomdened me to read a book,
we making progress.
Anyway you have you opinion,i have mine.There no way it will change:)i think this thread is done for,this argument can last forever.
-
it looks to me like that's about your only hope of having sex with anything other than a runimant animal.
Were you referring directly to NUKE there Toad? :p
-
Well, Nuke is clearly not a ruminant animal. But I don't think he's going to help ATA.
ATA, with that personality, should probably be looking for velcro gloves.
-
Originally posted by ATA
We became as bad as germans?
In some ways, yes.
Originally posted by ATA
We didnt invade Germany,they invaded us.They raped our women they killed our fathers,and yet we let them live.
You seem to subscribe to the "eye for an eye" school of making a better world. I'm with sure your extensive........ use.......... of history books you might have figured out this isn't a very good way for society to progress.
Yes, they invaded, they raped, they killed your fathers... and in your overwhelming magnitude, you let them live.
Of course, you counter-invaded them, raped their women just as heartily as they raped yours and you killed their fathers as fast as you could.
You became your enemy.
Tell me, how much money did the Soviet Union spend rebuilding East Germany after the war? Is this one over your head? Should I suggest a book?
Originally posted by ATA
We didnt kill our prisoners,just couse they germans.
So why DID you kill your prisoners?
The Poles at Katyn weren't Germans but the NKVD slaughtered about 25,000 Poles at three different sites in 1940. These were Polish service personnel that had been taken prisoner when the Soviet Union invaded Poland in September 1939.
Why did the Russians kill those Poles?
(Hey, why was it OK for you guys to invade Poland in the first place? Why did you invade them, rape their women and kill their fathers?)
The Germans treated Russian POW's inhumanly. Millions of Russian POW's died while in German captivity.
So what did the Russias do? Why they became their enemy, of course. They sank to the level of the Nazis.
The Soviets didn't kill their prisoners because they were Germans? Sure they did. They killed German prisoners in revenge for what Germans did to Russian prisoners.
The Soviets took ferocious revenge on the millions of POWs who fell into their hands during the war. Many were simply executed; most were sent to concentration camps where they died of exposure, starvation, and overwork.
German POWs (along with Romanians, Italians, and others) "were [not] treated even remotely in accordance with the Geneva Convention. Thousands froze to death and starved on the march or in unheated cattle trucks, and once in camps they were treated as slave labor. Heat, shelter, and clothing were all inadequate, diseases such as typhus were rampant, and food was so scarce that on occasion cannibalism occurred.
In all, at least one million German prisoners died out of the 3,150,000 taken by the Red Army." (S.P. MacKenzie, "The Treatment of Prisoners of War in World War II," The Journal of Modern History, 66: 3 [September 1994], p. 511.)
Originally posted by ATA
Again you judging people that you know nothing about.
Again, you're speaking as if you're totally unaware of your own history. Or else you've joined Boroda in Communist la-la land.
Originally posted by ATA
Look at pictures of WW2,massive graves,death camps imagine yourself loosing every one of your relatives.
7 out of 7 men in my family were in the service in WW2. One died at St. Lo after Normandy, the rest came home.
But the Russians are the only ones that suffered in WW2? Suffered so much that they had to slaughter and rape like the Nazis?
Look at pictures of WW2,massive graves,death camps imagine yourself loosing every one of your relatives.
Originally posted by ATA
This is the first time you didnt recomdened me to read a book,
we making progress.
We?
You'll make progress when you start actually reading them.
I might suggest to you that you'll do better of in these discussions if you don't immediately suggest that people perform a sexual act on you and if YOU don't immediately suggest that anyone who disagrees with you needs to "read a book".
Originally posted by ATA
Anyway you have you opinion,i have mine.There no way it will change:)i think this thread is done for,this argument can last forever.
Yeah, you have quite an opinion there. The argument can last for as long as you choose to make it obvious you need to read some books.
:lol
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Toad be careful when you say 'read a book.'
I'd prefer the term 'a book from western reliable sources.'
-
Oh my GOD!Even first killer Erich Hartman made it back to Germany.He should have been shot on sight.
-
But the Russians are the only ones that suffered in WW2? Suffered so much that they had to slaughter and rape like the Nazis?
Believe it,yes they suffered that much.
And yes,nobody syffered as much as russians in ww2.
They deserved that revenge.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Toad be careful when you say 'read a book.'
I'd prefer the term 'a book from western reliable sources.'
You've probably noted an excellent point there. Could explain everything.
-
Originally posted by ATA
Oh my GOD!Even first killer Erich Hartman made it back to Germany.He should have been shot on sight.
Why? Because he was a good fighter pilot?
-
Originally posted by ATA
But the Russians are the only ones that suffered in WW2? Suffered so much that they had to slaughter and rape like the Nazis?
Believe it,yes they suffered that much.
And yes,nobody syffered as much as russians in ww2.
They deserved that revenge.
It's fabulous when you post stuff like that.
Makes my case for me. Thank you.
BTW, you still didn't explain why the Russians had to kill 25,000 Polish prisoners.
You attacked Poland. What revenge did you have to have on them?
And Russians wonder why the world often views them as uncivilized barbarians.
Some (most??) of you ARE just like the Chechen nutjobs I guess.
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We actualy split poland not attacked.
Again, you going off topick,tell me that Hartman didnt make it to germany,and i think he deserves do die for killing 352 pilots.
Pass it out to your fallout shelter freinds.
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Where did you get that info about 25 000 polish pow?
-
Hartman scored 352 aerial combat victories. Many of the pilots bailed out and most had equal chance to fight back.
Now if he would have shot over 300 guys hanging in their parachutes - would be a different story.
Aerial victories aren't considered a warcrime, executing prisoners is.
-
And Russians wonder why the world often views them as uncivilized barbarians.
--------------------------------------------
Its only you.
--------------------------------------------
"Communists teach their students a simple technique. They ask them to bring a board, a hammer, and a nail. The teacher says, "Boys and girls, I'm going to pound this nail into this board. Now, watch closely." He takes the hammer and slams it down on the head of the nail, BOOM! He says, "Now, should I keep pushing on the hammer, PUSH, PUSH, PUSH?" "No, no, no, teacher. Draw the hammer back until you are ready to strike again." They pull back and strike again. That's the way you pound a nail. You don't hit it and keep pushing because you'll never drive it in that way. Then the teacher says, "That's right boys and girls this is the way that we are going to take over this world. We are going to strike and take a country, and then we are going to back up and say, We've changed; we're nice now. Send us your aid." Then, we are going to strike and take another one, and back up and say, "Hey, we've changed. Send us more money please." Robert T. Weaver
-----------------------------------------------------
This must be you fav. book.
BTW i think you racist.
-
Originally posted by ATA
Where did you get that info about 25 000 polish pow?
Mostly out of books.
For a quick reference for you... to get you started on realizing your nation's true history.... you can go here:
Stalin's order for the KATYN FOREST MASSACRE (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1791/beria.html)
and you should really read more. The home page of that site is here:
Katyn Forest Massacre - Polish Deaths at Soviet Hands (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1791/index.html)
-
Originally posted by ATA
We actualy split poland not attacked.
You ARE as funny as Boroda.
Split Poland with whom? Why with the NAZIS of course! And you wonder why I say "you became your enemy".
You, with your friends the NAZIS, invaded Poland and "split it", not attacked it.
What incredible BULLSHIRT!
Did the Poles agree to be "split" between the Nazis and the Soviets? No, not at all. In fact, it must be noted that Poland and the Soviet Union had previously signed a non-aggression pact. But you must have read about that Polish-Soviet non-aggression pact, right?
They fought both of you at the same time in a two front war when the Soviets violated the non-agression pact.
You didn't invade? What absolute HORSESHIRT! Have you EVER read any reliable history of WW2?
Here, let me help:
THE SOVIET INVASION OF POLAND DURING WORLD WAR TWO (http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id18.html)
Have you ever heard of, let alone READ the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? Signed in Moscow, August 23, 1939?
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, 1939 (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1939pact.html)
Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.
Pfffft... ask the Poles on this board if they think Russia invaded Poland. I suspect you'll get a warm answer when you trot out your "split" bullshirt.
Originally posted by ATA
Again, you going off topick,tell me that Hartman didnt make it to germany,and i think he deserves do die for killing 352 pilots.
By your logic every single Germans soldier should have been executed. Go ahead, go on and say it. Like I said, you make my arguments for me.
Hartmann was just a solidier, one that was really good at his job. Got any verifiable stories of Harmann raping Russian women? Killing prisoners out of hand?
No, I'm sure you don't.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Here's how I see it.
I never have had a problem with how the Russians deal with the Chechyans.
But I expect the Russians to not have a problem with how the Israeli's deal with the Palestinians or how we deal with the Insurgents.
WELL SAID! :aok
Bartender! Give that man a Beer on my tab! :D
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Oh yes,Stallin gave that order(he was gergian).I wonder what happen to those who didnt wollow hes orders.
That's politics,poland was pro-western, USSR was a comy.
They wiped out poland,USSR freed europe and Poland.
You are reading only fackts,you still need to understand that for 75 years USSR was under believe that USA was a bad.Propaganda did the job.
We even had documentary of bad white policemen beating the crap out protestnig black people.They called it something like
"Help the ******s",funny but in Russian the N word is not bad.
It comes from "Nigerian"
Anyway,you cant blame every single one for what they were made to do,'couse if they didnt they would be killed.
You dont like us,whatever makes you happy.
I'm proud of having many American freinds,trust me they know im russian,and they much better then you are.
May be it's time for you to stop reading those books?They messing with your one way oriented mind.
-
Sorry about the spelling
-
Originally posted by ATA
All that humanity comes from a sitizen of a country that killed indians and inslaved half of africa.
"We dont hate" its not "our way" bla-bla-bla,everyone or most of US sitizens wants iraq dead.
Sick of you
For future refrence, South America had more slaves (by far) than North America. Brazil alone had over 300,000.
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Originally posted by ATA
Oh yes,Stallin gave that order(he was gergian).I wonder what happen to those who didnt wollow hes orders.
So now you as a Russian deny accountability because the leader of your "Soviet Union" was a Georgian?
So everyone in the US can deny any bad thing Bush does because he was a "Texan"?
Do you even realize how stupid that sounds?
Originally posted by ATA
That's politics,poland was pro-western, USSR was a comy.
They wiped out poland,USSR freed europe and Poland.
The USSR freed Europe? Must be why so many countries that were behind the Iron Curtain love you so much now. Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania... ya, you "freed" them all right. You REALLY freed Poland by violating the non-aggression pact and stabbing them in the back by invading them while they were fighting the German invasion. Bravo.
Originally posted by ATA
You are reading only fackts
Well, I'm so sorry. I'm sure life is much easier for you when you just believe the fiction.
Still, history is supposed to be a written record of the facts. And the facts are the Russians slaughter the Polish prisoners at Katyn for absolutely no reason. Don't want to talk about that do you? You realize that by your logic the Poles should kill all of you right? I mean, you did invade them, rape their women, kill their fathers, etc., etc., etc.. How do you like it when the shoe is on the other foot?
Is the light beginning to dawn on you?
Originally posted by ATA
Anyway,you cant blame every single one for what they were made to do,'couse if they didnt they would be killed.
Of course YOU blame every German soldier for what they were made to do because if they didn't they would be killed. Hartmann is the perfect example. You wanted him killed, of course.
Does the irony ever get through to you? Do you ever see how you have become your enemies?
Originally posted by ATA
You dont like us,whatever makes you happy.
Depends on what you mean by "us".
I have no grudge against the Russian people. They're just people like any other. Generally, I get along with any normal, rational people no matter what their nationality.
OTOH, I have a major grudge against people of ANY nationality who try to justify inhuman brutality. Like you do, for example.
Get this... brutality is brutality. Brutality in the name of revenge is just as dispicable as any other brutality. For the Russians to do what the Chechens do is just as inexcusable as the Chechens doing it. The day you realize that it will be a major step forward for you.
Further, I have a minor grudge against people of ANY nationality that deny factual history. Like you do, for example. And Boroda.
Lastly, I have a minor grudge against people of ANY nationality who's idea of discussion is to use "blow me" as part of their argument, who tell people to "read a book" when CLEARLY those people themselves are not educated to any great degree on the subject under discussion.
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For future refrence we didnt have to wipe out whole culture to bild a country on somebodys land.
You make me dig the crap out just to prove something,wich offensive to country that i love.That would be USA,if i loved Russia i'd be there.
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What is it with you and the "blow me" part?
NUKE called me moron i told him to blow me,i think its faire.
BTW Gergia was a whole diff country before 1917 i think,no sure.
Diff language and all that.And Texas,well you know.
The point is,brutality creates brutality.Russians have every reason to be brutal.Invaders should suffer as much as defenders,
war will not be won otherwise.
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What, a red herring?
We started out talking about brutality, the Russian V Chechen brutality to be specific.
Now, if you want to delve into the history of brutality of our respective countries, fine.
We'll start with Russia from 862 forward... not "2000 years" I'm afraid... and the US from 1776.
I suggest you get some books on the coloninzation of the Americas first because it's already obvious you aren't too familiar with the timeline of what happened over here.
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Originally posted by ATA
What is it with you and the "blow me" part?
NUKE called me moron i told him to blow me,i think its faire.
Do you have short term memory loss as well? Or are you just so full of it and naturally obnoxious that you don't remember what you say to people?
Here, go to page two in this thread... see this reply you made insulting me. Well before you made the same reply to Nuke.
Timeline... try to stay with it.
Originally posted by ATA
Blow me,who cares how mane posts i have?
Yes US started that ****,read a book.
Originally posted by ATA
The point is,brutality creates brutality.Russians have every reason to be brutal.Invaders should suffer as much as defenders,
war will not be won otherwise.
Again I point you to Nashwan's post. Joining the circle of violence doesn't help your cause.
Secondly, this part is simply wrong.
Invaders should suffer as much as defenders,
war will not be won otherwise.
Wars can be won without slaughtering POW's wholesale like BOTH the Nazis and the Russians did. Did you study Katyn Forest? What did those Poles do to Russia? What did slaughtering those Poles have to do with "winning" the Russian invasion of Poland?
You're just wrong on so many levels.
However, as I said, when you make statements like that it exposes you for what you are.
Far easier than having me point it out. Thanks.
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Originally posted by ATA
Lot of rus-eng translators websites out there,still you couldnt translate all of it.
I honestly didnt care that much, just put it into freetranslation.com and copied/pasted here.
I am deeply sorry, i will try and care more next time.
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Originally posted by genozaur
Moy flag krasniy-zolotoy-siniy. No ya pomniu krasniye vremena.
Na drugikh websitakh prakticheski nie byvayu, da i zdes' tol'ko momentami. Zaniat prinuditel'nym trudom plius dvigayu vperiod nauku. Vizhu, kak tut dolboyoby raspoyasalis', poetomu inogda vstupayu v discussiyu. ;)
Про колер прапору - та же фигня. Снизу полоса или сбоку - неважно, я полухохол-полукацап. Сорри за арго - долбоёбы наблатыкались с роботолмачами.
Я тож в АН СССР окопался, ИХФ РАН. Зряплата никакая, но шабашь - не хочу, в смысле - калымить. Плюс вроде как государев кошт, с вытекающими.
Долбоёбы тут издревле, после ВТЦ совсем охренели, как с цепи. Плоды мозгосрани я наблюдаю с тех пор как кокосы Югов раскатали, ПолМорСос на ВыИдУр-е ткскзать. А на меня ещё за Фрихост батон крошат... Вон через ментов на нас наезжали, мы ессно отбоярились, но осадок остался ;)
Должен заметить что тусовка (ойякненавижу этот термин!) тут фишкосекущая, не чета обычым пионерским сральникам. Многие чуваки просто молотки. Если кто намыливается в наши пенаты - я пытаюсь в меру сил...
Посмотрим, сколько из написанного мною будет понятно после робота переводчика ;)
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Originally posted by ATA
I just realized that with my ingl i cant win this conversation
I understood it years ago. And dealing with Toad - be prepared for endless cut'n'paste floods switching subjects.
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Originally posted by Toad
Wars can be won without slaughtering POW's wholesale like BOTH the Nazis and the Russians did. Did you study Katyn Forest? What did those Poles do to Russia? What did slaughtering those Poles have to do with "winning" the Russian invasion of Poland?
Toad, again the money for the fish.
This time in your one-way radio mode you answered your question yourself.
And again: USSR didn't invade Poland, it took back territory illegally occupied after 1920.
As for Russia being 2000 years old, Rjurik and Novgorod - Novgorod is definetly older then 862AD. And Slavonic tribes moved to Eastern Europe in the beginning of First Millenium AD. Kiev is AT LEAST 1500 years old.
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And again: USSR didn't invade Poland, it took back territory illegally occupied after 1920.
As for Russia being 2000 years old, Rjurik and Novgorod - Novgorod is definetly older then 862AD. And Slavonic tribes moved to Eastern Europe in the beginning of First Millenium AD. Kiev is AT LEAST 1500 years old.
[Conan O'Brien]
Yeah, on a related note, a group of vikings have been seen around russian sites ready to claim back what's righfully theirs.
[/Conan O'Brien]
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
[Conan O'Brien]
Yeah, on a related note, a group of vikings have been seen around russian sites ready to claim back what's righfully theirs.
[/Conan O'Brien]
Go study something about a Normann tribe called "Ross". They ended up in Spain somewhere in XI or XII century, IIRC.
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Keep an eye on the puten con job boroda. that guy is a commie!
He will have you farming potatoes in soil as healthy as concrete before you know it.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I understood it years ago. And dealing with Toad - be prepared for endless cut'n'paste floods switching subjects.
It isn't his English. That's good enough. It's his lack of knowledge which rivals but can't exceed your lack of knowledge.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, again the money for the fish.
This time in your one-way radio mode you answered your question yourself.
And again: USSR didn't invade Poland, it took back territory illegally occupied after 1920.
As for Russia being 2000 years old, Rjurik and Novgorod - Novgorod is definetly older then 862AD. And Slavonic tribes moved to Eastern Europe in the beginning of First Millenium AD. Kiev is AT LEAST 1500 years old.
Take these two gems for example.
Are you going maintain that the founding of a nation dates from the inception of a city?
Don't think so; takes a bit more than throwing up a few mud and log huts in one location to form a nation. Check around; find a reputable historical source that says Russian statehood happened before Rurik of Jutland.
Brief History of Russia and Famous Russians — from the 7th century till nowadays (http://www.waytorussia.net/WhatIsRussia/History.html)
(Note this is a Russian site)
The first known East Slavic state emerged in 862 along the Dnepr river valley. Prince Rurik founded the state with the capital in town Kiev that is why the country was called Kievan Rus’.
Now to your claims of Russia retaking land that was originally theirs in Poland.
Let's look at this historically.
Russo-Polish War (1919-20), military conflict between Soviet Russia and Poland, which sought to seize Ukraine. It resulted in the establishment of the Russo-Polish border that existed until 1939.
Although there had been hostilities between the two countries during 1919, the conflict began when the Polish head of state Jуzef Pilsudski formed an alliance with the Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petlyura (April 21, 1920) and their combined forces began to overrun Ukraine, occupying Kiev on May 7.
In June the Soviet Red Army launched a counteroffensive, reaching the former Polish border by the end of July. In a wave of revolutionary enthusiasm, Soviet forces advanced through Poland to the outskirts of Warsaw (early August).
The western European powers, fearing that the Russians might succeed in establishing a Soviet government in Poland and perhaps proceed to Germany, sent a military mission, headed by the French general Maxime Weygand, to advise the Polish army. The Poles counterattacked in mid-August and forced the Russians to retreat.
An armistice was signed in October 1920. The Treaty of Riga, concluded on March 18, 1921, provided for the bulk of Ukraine to remain a Soviet republic, although substantial portions of Belorussia (Belarus) and Ukraine were ceded to Poland.
So, Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petlyura allies himself with the Poles and started a war with Soviet Russian.
The war ends in an armistice, and the Soviets and Poles sign the Treaty of Riga which cedes portions of Belorussia (Belarus) and Ukraine to Poland.
Now about the Treaty of Riga:
The Peace Treaty signed at Riga on March 18, 1921, gave real expression to Poland's sincere desire for a lasting agreement with Russia; it was not a dic-tated peace imposed by victor upon vanquished, but a treaty freely negotiated by men who sought a just solution that would afford equal protection to the interests of both Poland and Russia, and once for all liquidate the age old conflict between the two countries.
This spirit found its official expression in the preamble to the treaty itself, which stated explicitly:
"Poland on the one hand, Russia and the Ukraine on the other, desiring to put an end to the war in which they had been involved, and desiring to conclude a definite, lasting and honorable peace based on mutual under-standing, decided to enter upon negotiations with each other."
Then, of course, this:
When the new Soviet Constitution of July 6, 1923, called into being the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, the Soviet Government in its Note of December 14, 1923, addressed to the Polish Government, again confirmed all the treaties concluded by the various Soviet Republics before the creation of the Union, including the Treaty of Riga, and pledged itself solemnly to observe and fulfill them.
The preamble of the non-aggression pact, signed in Moscow between Poland and Soviet-Russia in July 1932, says:
"Considering that the Treaty of Peace of March 18, 1921, constitutes now as in the past, the basis of their reciprocal relations and undertakings have decided to conclude the present Pact ...
On May 5, 1934, this pact was prolonged until December 31, 194~ (and is therefore still in force).
On this occasion Maxim Litvinov, the Soviet Commissar of Foreign Affairs, delivered a speech in which he underlined the friendly and cordial relations existing between the two largest countries of Eastern Europe.
Finally, on November 26, 1938, a joint communique was issued by the Polish and Soviet Governments, the first paragraph of which read as follows:
"Relations between the Polish Republic and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics are and will continue to be based to the fullest extent on all existing Agreements, including the Polish-Soviet Pact of Non-Aggression dated July 25, 1932.
This pact has a basis wide enough to guarantee the inviolability of peaceful relations between the two States."
So, let's review:
The territories in dispute were ceded to Poland in the Treaty of Riga, a "definite, lasting and honorable peace based on mutual under-standing". In short, the Soviets AGREED to give the territory to Poland.
Then, in 1923, the Soviet Government addressed the Polish Government, again confirmed all the treaties concluded by the various Soviet Republics before the creation of the Union, including the Treaty of Riga, and pledged itself solemnly to observe and fulfill them.
So the Soviets REAFFIRM the ceding of that territory to Poland in 1923.
Nine years later in 1932, Poland and Soviet-Russia sign a non-aggression pact, once again reaffirming the Treaty of Riga and the ceding of these territories to Poland.
In 1934 the non-aggression pact is extended. No mention of wanting the territories back then either.
In 1938 the non-aggression pact is reaffirmed.
But then we all know what happened.
So.......... make your case that you "took back territory illegally occupied after 1920."
Illegally? Treaty of Riga? 1932 Non-aggression pact? 1934 Non-aggression pact extension? 1938 Non-aggression pact reaffirmation?
Looks like the Soviets acted illegally to me. Or do you suggest that the signataure of Russia on a document is worthless?
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And Russians wonder why the world often views them as uncivilized barbarians.
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"uncivilized barbarians" could not create such people as ciolkovskiy,rahmaninov,sikorskiy,tolstoy,pushkin................
People you never heard of.
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Some (most??) of you ARE just like the Chechen nutjobs I guess.
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Russians also wonder why the whole world hates so yung America.
Some or most of us nutjobs?Guess again.
It's like if i'd say some of most of americans fat and high school dropout retards.
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About brutality,should i remind of hiroshima bombing?
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Originally posted by ATA
"uncivilized barbarians" could not create such people as ciolkovskiy,rahmaninov,sikorskiy,tolstoy,pushkin................
People you never heard of.
Not only heard of, I have actually READ some of their work. Didn't eat the book covers or wipe my bum with the pages... I READ them.
To the point, it only takes a few like you to ruin the reputation of a people.
Somehow I seriously doubt the people you just mentioned would say things like you say in this thread.
Someday you'll realize that the things you said here depict you as a mirror image of the Chechen Islamic butchers. You have become what you hate.
Congratulations.
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Hiroshima?
Go ahead, equate that bombing during ongoing hostilities to the slaughter of ~25,000 Polish POW's by the NKVD.
The Hiroshima bombing was a brutal wartime act but what the NKVD did was simply murder after the cessation of hostilites.
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To the point, it only takes a few like you to ruin the reputation of a people.
----------------------------------------------------
No it doesnt,but to you it does.
----------------------------------------------------
The Hiroshima bombing was a brutal wartime act but what the NKVD did was simply murder after the cessation of hostilites.
----------------------------------------------------
War with japan was almost over,they were deffeated,it was demonstration of US power.Wich was exatly in your words
"was simply murder after the cessation of hostilites".
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You read a lot,read some more.
The Bombing of Hiroshima
A Watershed in the History of Violence
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sixth of August can never be forgotten. That day we proved that civilization has not happened to humanity yet, that we are barbarians, that we are cannibals, that we are still animals. Darwin is wrong; the whole idea of evolution is just imagination.
Instead of believing in Darwin, I believe in the monkeys, because monkeys also have their idea: they think man has fallen -- and certainly he has fallen -- from the trees. Falling from the height, you call that evolution?
The sixth of August proved the monkeys are right, because to drop atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the ugliest thing that man has done in the whole of history. Everything else paled before it. And the wonder of wonders is that it was not needed at all. Germany had already surrendered; the Japanese forces were almost finished. Perhaps without the dropping of the atom bombs the war may have continued one week more.
That would not have been a great calamity -- people had been fighting for five years; for seven days more.... But that was the reason for dropping the atom bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, because if the war ended then you would never be able to drop the atomic weapons that you had. It was the time to make the world feel how much power and strength you had. America wanted it to be remembered that if Nagasaki and Hiroshima can disappear in smoke, then there is no problem: Moscow, New Delhi, London, Paris -- any place can be evaporated within seconds.
American was trying to prove itself the greatest power in the world. It had nothing to do with the war, they were winning. Now, dropping atom bombs on people who are already losing every day -- there cannot be any other reason.
President Truman -- and what a name he has got. Certainly he was a true-man. We should change his name to President True-monkey; that's where he belongs. Even his military experts were not willing. They told him, "It is absolutely unnecessary, the war has really ended. It is only just a week's work and Japan will surrender. Now that Germany has surrendered, Japan cannot survive; the basic power was Germany. And we are winning every day, so just wait seven days more. And if after seven days the war is not finished, you can drop atom bombs."
But he did not listen, because there was some other motivation in dropping the atom bombs. It was not to win, they were winning already. The motivation was to make it clear to the whole world that now America is by far the biggest power. And just to prove this, two big cities, throbbing with life, were just destroyed. Obviously, Japan surrendered immediately; otherwise Tokyo would go the same way as Hiroshima and Nagasaki had gone. And President True-monkey told his military experts, "See? The war is finished immediately. We don't have to wait."
Hiroshima and Nagasaki are wounds which have not healed yet. And rather than healing those wounds, America is piling up nuclear weapons. Naturally, afraid of America, Russia is doing the same; they are piling up nuclear weapons. In fact, it is now difficult to say who is more powerful, because about American things are known, how much power America has, but about Russia everything is secret. She may be more powerful, she may have more nuclear weapons. She may have new methods which are even superior.
For example, they have been trying, and perhaps they have succeeded, in creating death rays. No bomb is needed, certain rays are just directed towards the country. You will not see them, so you cannot protect yourself.
When somebody is bombing, there is time -- Russia cannot destroy the whole of America in a day, nor can America destroy Russia in a day. But death rays will kill people and nobody will be able to know what is happening.
Suddenly the death ray hits your heart, you fall dead. It is an invisible way of killing, and as far as I know, there is as yet no way found to protect people against death rays.
And because these two biggest powers in the world are continuing to create more and more destructive weapons, even small countries -- just out of fear, the whole humanity is living in fear -- countries which are starving, cannot manage even to survive, which perhaps will not be there to see the third world war at all, they are also trying to make atomic plants, nuclear plants. Their people are already dying and starving, and they are preparing death for others, knowing perfectly well that now there is no time to become in any way a great world power.
Russia and America are so far ahead that by the time you reach that point, they would have moved again, miles further ahead. Now there is no way for them to catch up. It is sheer stupidity on the part of other countries to waste their money on nuclear weapons, for the simple reason that they can never be the top power. That is impossible; they don't have the means, they don't have the time.
And it is stupid for America and Russia too, because they have already so much destructive energy in their hands that they can kill all living beings on the earth, from trees to man -- everything that breathes. They both are ready enough to destroy life seven times over. Can you see any intelligence in making more weapons? Are not these enough? A man dies only once! And you are not the begotten son of God, that after death you will be resurrected with glory, so they will have to kill you again.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki create a division in history. And now, to go on piling up more and more weapons of destruction, just out of fear.... Even India wants a nuclear plant. The difficulty is that one of the most important things needed to make nuclear weapons is uranium, and uranium is found only in Russia and America. So anybody who wants to create a nuclear plant has to depend on these two powers.
America has bigger resources for uranium, so although India deep down condemns America, it cannot declare openly that "We are not with America," because from where are they going to get the uranium? Russia has only enough for itself; otherwise Russia would have provided the uranium for India.
And the situation is absurd. When you have already enough to destroy every man seven times, then stop everything! All the energy should move to provide people with more comfort, more education, more health, more medicine. And this is so simple.
There are two kinds of people who are responsible, and on this sixth of August, those two categories should take the responsibility to see that things like Hiroshima and Nagasaki never happen again.
Who are these two categories? One is the politicians. They should stop -- not a semicolon, a full stop. No more money goes into making destructive things, no money goes into the service of death. And you should remember, seventy-five percent of the energy of all the nations is going into the service of death. This seventy-five percent of the energy should become available to the poor, the downtrodden. And can you imagine? Seventy-five percent of the finances, if released from the service of death, can make this earth a paradise.
This sixth of August.... The second category is that of priests of all religions, who are teaching people that birth control is against God, that abortion is a crime, is a sin. These are the people who are helping the population grow faster and faster. They all should be in prison. Leaving them out is leaving ferocious animals without chains in the society. They go on helping the population to grow, and the population goes on creating more poverty.
For thirty years I have been continuously teaching that the pill is the greatest revolution after the discovery of fire. Nothing else in between is of any importance. Birth control is your birthright. It is up to you to decide, because there is no God who is deciding. You have to take the responsibility upon yourself.
We are in our own ways trying to raise the consciousness around the world to prevent the politicians from creating more destructive weapons. And whatever nuclear energy, atomic energy, is available should be used for creative purposes. The same energy can bring clouds over Ethiopia; the same energy can stop floods in India. Energy is always neutral. It depends on you for what purpose you are going to use it.
The politicians are responsible -- and the religious leaders. I am not responsible at all, because for thirty years I have been teaching in favor of birth control, the pill and other methods. And I have been teaching against atomic energy. But if people don't listen then it is their responsibility.
If India dies, it is not my responsibility. They should hang their priests who are responsible for poverty in India. They should tell their politicians, "We don't need nuclear plants." India is dying, half of India is starving, and the wheat is being exported, because only by exporting wheat and other things which their own people need, can India arrange finances enough to make nuclear plants.
These politicians should be forced: "Either stop all efforts for war, or get down from your seats. We will find other presidents, other prime ministers."
The sixth of August should be a day of declaration against the politicians and the priests.
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You separate people by nations,you racist.
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From Osho? You must be on drugs or something.
When somebody is bombing, there is time -- Russia cannot destroy the whole of America in a day, nor can America destroy Russia in a day. But death rays will kill people and nobody will be able to know what is happening.
Suddenly the death ray hits your heart, you fall dead. It is an invisible way of killing, and as far as I know, there is as yet no way found to protect people against death rays.
OK... maybe both Osho AND ATA are on drugs. Death Rays? You can sure pick 'em.
To sum up...
"the Japanese forces were almost finished. Perhaps without the dropping of the atom bombs the war may have continued one week more"
Pure supposition. Allied planners were estimating 1 million casualties resulting from a final invasion of Japan. No one on the Allied side knew it that invasion would be necessary or not. There was no way to be sure how close the Japanese were to capitulation.
So, as usual, you're wrong again.
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Originally posted by ATA
You separate people by nations,you racist.
:rofl
That's it? That's all you've got?
You can't debate so you try the old "racist" card?
Man, you are one pathetic dude.
I'm not separating anyone. Go ahead, try to show my comments in this thread that a "racist".
Glad you got to Amreeka... it shows we let anyone in, irregardless of their lack of intelligence or ability to reason.
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War with japan was almost over,they were deffeated,it was demonstration of US power.
-----------------------------------
Tell me that it is not true,tell me that you read books written by one way oriented people like you.
Tell me that you dont wanna read other than american books,
tell me you dont wanna hear what former US enemy have to say,
tell me that many inocent people no longer live 'couse of US had to prove something.
After all that
tell me that US is better than Russians.
Oh i'm sorry!!!!
"better than MOST of russians"
You are racist.
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If you're going to use Osho as a source, you might as well quit while you're ahead.
I've probably read more history books than you've ever seen.
I've read authors of many different countries.
I like discussions but not with people that espouse needless brutality.
I'll tell you that millions no longer live because of the Soviet Union, both Soviet citizens and non-citizens.
Poor boy.. racist is best you can do still.
Tell me, what's your explanation for the brutality of the NKVD at Katyn Forest?
Don't have the sack to answer that do you?
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This is one case where I'd say, "Forget the Geneva Convention crap" and let Russia Torture these illiterate bastards till they are dead. Every.. Last.. One of them.
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Their children too?
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I'll tell you that millions no longer live because of the Soviet Union, both Soviet citizens and non-citizens.
Poor boy.. racist is best you can do still.
Tell me, what's your explanation for the brutality of the NKVD at Katyn Forest?
----------------------------------------
Answer the fu#king question,to nuke the japan,was that ok?
Theyr children too?
You are racist.
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Tell me, what's your explanation for the brutality of the NKVD at Katyn Forest?
-----------------
Order of Stalin.
Your turn.
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Toad you got a good one here, feed and water it well and it will give you hours and hours of enjoyment.
:aok
Oh and ATA which one of our dear old cRAZ3D America Haters in shades are you?
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:aok
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Toad, I know it's fun to play with your food and all.....but this dipwad does not deserve your time.
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Originally posted by ATA
Order of Stalin.
Your turn.
You realize that reply is trite it has a name, right?
The term "Nuremberg Defense" was originally coined during the Nazi war crimes trials at Nuremberg after World War II.
Nazi war criminals who were charged with genocide, mass murder, torture and other atrocities used the defense "I was only following orders" so frequently that the argument became known generically as "The Nuremberg Defense
So basically here you are admitting the Soviets were just like the Nazis.
Congratulations! You have once again shown you have become an exact copy of your enemies.
You must be so proud!
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Pleas tell me some more about brutality.
TOTAL CASUALTIES
There has been great difficulty in estimating the total casualties in the Japanese cities as a result of the atomic bombing. The extensive destruction of civil installations (hospitals, fire and police department, and government agencies) the state of utter confusion immediately following the explosion, as well as the uncertainty regarding the actual population before the bombing, contribute to the difficulty of making estimates of casualties. The Japanese periodic censuses are not complete. Finally, the great fires that raged in each city totally consumed many bodies.
The number of total casualties has been estimated at various times since the bombings with wide discrepancies. The Manhattan Engineer District's best available figures are:
TABLE A Estimates of Casualties
Hiroshima Nagasaki
Pre-raid population 255,000 195,000
Dead 66,000 39,000
Injured 69,000 25,000
Total Casualties 135,000 64,000
The relation of total casualties to distance from X, the center of damage and point directly under the air-burst explosion of the bomb, is of great importance in evaluating the casualty-producing effect of the bombs. This relationship for the total population of Nagasaki is shown in the table below, based on the first-obtained casualty figures of the District:
TABLE B Relation of Total Casualties to Distance from X
Distance Total Killed per
from X, feet Killed Injured Missing Casualties square mile
0 - 1,640 7,505 960 1,127 9,592 24,7OO
1,640 - 3,300 3,688 1,478 1,799 6,965 4,040
3,300 - 4,900 8,678 17,137 3,597 29,412 5,710
4,900 - 6,550 221 11,958 28 12,207 125
6,550 - 9,850 112 9,460 17 9,589 20
No figure for total pre-raid population at these different distances were available. Such figures would be necessary in order to compute per cent mortality. A calculation made by the British Mission to Japan and based on a preliminary analysis of the study of the Joint Medical-Atomic Bomb Investigating Commission gives the following calculated values for per cent mortality at increasing distances from X:
TABLE C Per-Cent Mortality at Various Distances
Distance from X, Per-cent Mortality
in feet
0 - 1000 93.0%
1000 - 2000 92.0
2000 - 3000 86.0
3000 - 4000 69.0
4000 - 5000 49.0
5000 - 6000 31.5
6000 - 7000 12.5
7000 - 8000 1.3
8000 - 9000 0.5
9000 - 10,000 0.0
It seems almost certain from the various reports that the greatest total number of deaths were those occurring immediately after the bombing. The causes of many of the deaths can only be surmised, and of course many persons near the center of explosion suffered fatal injuries from more than one of the bomb effects. The proper order of importance for possible causes of death is: burns, mechanical injury, and gamma radiation. Early estimates by the Japanese are shown in D below:
TABLE D Cause of Immediate Deaths
City Cause of Death Per-cent of Total
Hiroshima Burns 60%
Falling debris 30
Other 10
Nagasaki Burns 95% Falling debris 9 Flying glass 7 Other 7
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I musta agree with ATA.
The USA really should have killied a million or two japanese people with conventinal waepons and continued fire bombing in an invasion or satrved a few hundred thusand women, kids and elderly through an embargo insted of doiung the awful nuclear attcaks.
Why ATA hates the japanese race so much, though, is beyond me.
And ATA please tell us who you were before this new shade account. I'm sure you and I could finish some old squabbles, heck I bet you're just itcing to contine them too. Eh ole buddy?
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Stalin and Hitler, responsible for multiple millions of deaths.
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GRUNHERZ,i love USA.I am trying to prove that we are same people.Fallout shelter this way.
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Why ATA hates the japanese race so much, though, is beyond me.
--------------------------------------------------
What makes you think that i hate japan?
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Toad,c'mon man.
ANSWER the question,you still think it was not brutal?
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Because you are advocating a course of action that would have killed many more of them, not to mention one that would likely have created a divided North/South Japan one communist and the other free because the Russians would want thir part of it.
Sorty ata, those were the realistic options of the day. And now 60 years later from the comfort of your living room and without the perspective of 4 years of the worlds most destructive war I dont think your revisonist history holds any validity.
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I musta agree with ATA.
The USA really should have killied a million or two japanese people with conventinal waepons and continued fire bombing in an invasion or satrved a few hundred thusand women, kids and elderly through an embargo insted of doiung the awful nuclear attcaks.
-----------------------------------------
I guess it was cheaper to NUKE them.
GOD bless USA.
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GRUNHERZ.The point is that Russians brutal to their enemy.
Whos forcyng you to be my enemy,do i bother you?I wanna be your freind not enemy.
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JB 88,i wonder why you JB.
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If game allowed you to have swastika,you'd have in your squad.
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NUKE i could not agree more.
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Stalin and Hitler, responsible for multiple millions of deaths.
-------------------------------------
Nothing new.
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Originally posted by ATA
I musta agree with ATA.
The USA really should have killied a million or two japanese people with conventinal waepons and continued fire bombing in an invasion or satrved a few hundred thusand women, kids and elderly through an embargo insted of doiung the awful nuclear attcaks.
-----------------------------------------
I guess it was cheaper to NUKE them.
GOD bless USA.
Yes much cheaper in lost lives that way, both Japanese and Allied. Not to mention the impact on millions of post-war Japanese who would have livideed in a seperate Northern Japanese Soviet controlled police state instead of a unified, free, western oriented Japan that developed after the war.
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Bombing a city in an ongoing war is quite a bit different than slaughtering tied POW's because, JUST LIKE THE NAZIS, the Russians were "only following orders".
It's quite a bit different that the outright killing or working to death of over a million German POW's, not releasing some ordinary soldiers until the later '50's.
During the Second World War and in the early post-war period, some three million German soldiers and several hundred thousand German civilians were taken prisoner by Soviet forces, or are missing to this day. About 500,000 are known to have died in captivity. More than 500,000 are still listed as missing today.
What happened to those missing half million?
Not to mention the fate of Soviet POW's held by the Germans that were returned to the USSR by the Allies. Why don't you tell our readers what happend to those poor soldiers? Go ahead, tell us all.
SOVIET RAPES IN BERLIN: UNKNOWN TOTAL
The official figures for Berlin rapes by Soviet troops does exist but has never been published. However, Berlin’s former mayor, Ernst Reuter, said that the figure given him was 90,000.
Many rapes of course were never reported and the figure of 90,000 includes only hospitalized cases and doctors reports. Some 10,000 women in Berlin died as a result of rape, mostly from suicide. In the Soviet Zone of Germany nearly 90% of females ages between 10 and 80 were raped. This included women expelled from the eastern provinces.
Most German children born in Berlin in 1946 were the result of rape. Women and young girls were forcibly dragged from their homes and raped, the Soviet Mongolian soldiers queuing up to await their turn. For two whole weeks these mass rapes of women continued. Some Jewish women, thinking that their nationality would save them, showed their identity cards to the rapists but none of them could even read.
Marshal Zhukov issued orders that any soldier caught in the act of rape after the two week period was up, was to be shot on the spot. Many a Russian soldier met his end this way.
Now, go ahead and excuse all these things by once again shouting out
"We Russians sunk to the level of our enemies! We became no better than the Nazis! (But we were only following orders!)
:rofl
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GRUNHERZ
---------------------------------------------------
Yes much cheaper in lost lives that way, both Japanese and Allied. Not to mention the impact on millions of post-war Japanese who would have livideed in a seperate Northern Japanese Soviet controlled police state instead of a unified, free, western oriented Japan that developed after the war.
---------------------------------------------------
Hmmm,that why they were burning American flags in 1990's.
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TOAD oh my GOD!
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Bombing a city in an ongoing war is quite a bit different than slaughtering tied POW's because, JUST LIKE THE NAZIS, the Russians were "only following orders".
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Are you saying that to NUKE country that already lost war,would be bit different than slaughtering tied POW's because, JUST LIKE THE NAZIS, the Russians were "only following orders"?
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Should i replace Russians with Americans?
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Toad, for the love of God, please ignore this guy.
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Originally posted by ATA
GRUNHERZ
---------------------------------------------------
Yes much cheaper in lost lives that way, both Japanese and Allied. Not to mention the impact on millions of post-war Japanese who would have livideed in a seperate Northern Japanese Soviet controlled police state instead of a unified, free, western oriented Japan that developed after the war.
---------------------------------------------------
Hmmm,that why they were burning American flags in 1990's.
Yep, the kids - like you - know nothing. They are emotinal and hateful of nuclear weapons as a concept, and nopt mindful of that fact that in that case they saved more lives than other options such as invasion or nationwide starvation blocade.
What's next, are you gonna bring up that South Korean young people burn US flags to protest his country as an example of why we shouldnt have intervened in the Korean war as the gentle forces of Greal Leader Kim Il Sung marched south and nearly took over the whole peninsula.
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GRUNHERZ
---------------
Yep, the kids - like you - know nothing. They are emotinal and hateful of nuclear weapons as a concept, and nopt mindful of that fact that in that case they saved more lives than other options such as invasion or nationwide starvation blocade.
---------------
They know their parents dead,i gues they should thank you.
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Yes the Japanese people should be thankful that the war was ended so qyickly without invasion or embargo. BTW maybe you should be thanful too, pretty good chance many of todays american or other allied grampas wouldnt be around if the nukes werent dropped.
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GRUNHERZ
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Yes the Japanese people should be thankful that the war was ended so qyickly without invasion or embargo. BTW maybe you should be thanful too, pretty good chance many of todays american or other allied grampas wouldnt be around if the nukes werent dropped.
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GRUNHERZ oh i'm thankful,thank you for proving my point,and i agree with you,lesson was given to Germany and Japan.
I rest my case TOAD.
Russians or Americans we are the same.
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So I proved your point against use of nuclerar weapons to end WW2 by stating that they saved many lives on both sides?
You are an odd fellow indeed...
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OMFG!!! I just read thru all the drivel on 4 pages!!! And to be honest 95% of your are full of it. and probably couldnt tell me what the original topic was about without looking! The other 5% should be locked up together with sensitivity counsulor.
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So I proved your point against use of nuclerar weapons to end WW2 by stating that they saved many lives on both sides?
-----------------------------
You proved my point that US nuked japan when Japan was already defeated.
Saved lives?
NUKE means KILL.
Japan would not last a mounth agants US and Red Army.
By that time as you know Germany was dead.
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Never mind that.You proved that we deal with an enemy the same way.
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News flash:
The people in west Berlin were driving Porsches and Ferraris quite soon after the war. They drank good wine and enjoyed steak dinners.
The people in east Berlin were locked behind an iron curtain, drove ladas and trabants, hardly saw good wine nor meat, were spyed by their neighbours for stasi, were therefore afraid to freely talk even inside their own homes.
And that's just east germany where things were REALLY well compared to most of the absolute hell on earth called communist russia.
Tell me again you're the same, please. Pretty please?
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Originally posted by ATA
You proved my point that US nuked japan when Japan was already defeated.
Saved lives?
Excerpts from "CASUALTY PROJECTIONS FOR THE U.S. INVASIONS OF JAPAN, 1945-1946"
Eventually those numbers would reach what General LeMay described as "well up into the imaginative brackets and then some," because it was clear that American forces would have to fight literally "millions of well-trained men." And unlike the final death throes in Germany, which saw Soviet troops engage the bulk of German strength and suffer 352,475 casualties (including 78,291 dead) during their final, twenty-three-day assault on Berlin and central Germany, the twin U.S. invasions of the Japanese Home Islands were to be conducted almost exclusively by American forces.
The implied top-end figure of approximately 1,700,000 to 2,000,000 battle casualties built on the basis of the Saipan ratio was slashed down to a best-case scenario figure that was not so huge as to make the task ahead appear insurmountable, and use of a 500,000 battle casualty figure was "the operative one at the working level" during the spring of 1945. Andrew J. Goodpaster was then with the Strategy Section of the JWPC. He noted that Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson used the number regularly.
The Saipan ratio was 1 American death and several wounded for 7 Japanese deaths.
500,000 Americans + 3,500,000 Japanese = 4,000,000 lives
It can be argued with some validity that Fat Man and Little Boy saved 3.7 million lives.
I ask how many American and Japanese lives would it have taken for us to be righteous?
It's an easy question, ATA, just give us a number.
>spelling
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The Japanese were known for fighting to the last breath. They would not surrender.
The a-bomb was a horrible horrible weapon and a black spot in human history..
But it most likely was smaller of the two evils.
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what i find interesting about the A-bomb is the fact that they werent even sure what would happen. there was speculation that it would actually ignite the atmosphere and destroy all life as we know it, yet they pressed on.
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I think those speculations were with the hydrogen bomb.
Well, they did try that too then. :rolleyes:
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as they say...
there it is.
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Interesting point JB - TWRATM's dad was a B52 gunner (so guess how long ago that was). Anyway, the stuff they carried around, atleast in the multi megaton class they just called "where'd they go?" bombs. Because you drop it and ask "where'd they all go?"
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Originally posted by ATA
I rest my case TOAD.
Russians or Americans we are the same.
LOL!
You've never MADE a case?
Want to make a case? Show me where US forces shot ~25,000 tied up POWs in the back of the head and buried them in mass graves.
Show me where ANY American general allowed (encouraged?) his army to do anything like this:
Red Army rapists exposed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1939174.stm)
...Mr Beevor, whose previous book Stalingrad became a best-seller, says in Berlin alone it was estimated up to 130,000 women were raped, of whom up to 10,000 committed suicide.
Altogether two million German women are believed to have been raped and almost half of those suffered gang rape....
...He said the widespread rape suggested "there is a dark area of male sexuality which can emerge all too easily, especially in war, when there are no social and disciplinary restraints."
He said the Soviet hierarchy turned a blind eye, and even condoned the rape as a form of revenge for what the German Army - the Wehrmacht - had done during Operation Barbarossa.
And don't tell me "The Nazis did it too!" You'd just be confirming that the Red Army was just like the Nazis. Again.
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TEll me ATA if america is just like the soviets then explain the differences in freedom, national independance and human rights between the US sphere of influence in the west and the soviet one in eastern europe...
Tell us again, which side built walls to keep their people in?
Becausae if you actually think we are like the sovciets then you truly an America Hater...
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only one case that i know of...wasnt really encouraged so much as allowed to happen by virtue of loaded weapons and growing paranoia.
didnt go over well. here's hoping it never happens again...and heres congratulating a society which allowed it to be printed and even has it on display in the smithsonian. (museum of american history)
(http://www.uiowa.edu/~policult/assets/VietNam/KentState.jpg)
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Not only that, it was roundly condemned.
Unlike certain other atrocities on massive scales that are now apparently to be boasted about as proof of manliness or something by certain individuals.
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Show me where US forces shot ~25,000 tied up POWs in the back of the head and buried them in mass graves.
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I'm sorry TOAD they vaporized,nothing to bury
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TEll me ATA if america is just like the soviets then explain the differences in freedom, national independance and human rights between the US sphere of influence in the west and the soviet one in eastern europe...
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Ask dead dead IRAQI's if they feel free know
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And that's just east germany where things were REALLY well compared to most of the absolute hell on earth called communist russia.
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Ever been there Fu#ker?Ask russians if it was hell.
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Eventually those numbers would reach what General LeMay described as "well up into the imaginative brackets and then some," because it was clear that American forces would have to fight literally "millions of well-trained men." And unlike the final death throes in Germany, which saw Soviet troops engage the bulk of German strength and suffer 352,475 casualties (including 78,291 dead) during their final, twenty-three-day assault on Berlin and central Germany, the twin U.S. invasions of the Japanese Home Islands were to be conducted almost exclusively by American forces.
-------------------------------------------------
Well trained men?
Exclusively by American forces?
America was trying to prove itself the greatest power in the world. It had nothing to do with the war, they were winning.
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Yeah-Yeah,America is good Russia is bad,kill a comy for mamy.
Tell me you belive what you told.
Ahhh western relible sources.
Some retard colled me America hater,i dont hate America.
I hate people like you,if you think you better that "most" of us.
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If you think the USA is just like the Soviet Union then you muist hate the USA. There is no way around it ATA.
The Soviet Union was one of the greatest forces for evil and human destruction during its 75 some odd years. No other entity brough so much death, misery and enslavement to the world in such a short time. They were even jointly and directly responsible for the start or WW2 for agreeing to ally themsekves with Nazi Germay in their combined and coordinated attack on Poland in September 1939.
If yiou think the USA is just like them then you must hate USA too.
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The Soviet Union was one of the greatest forces for evil and human destruction during its 75 some odd years.
----------------------
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighhhhhhhhht.
----------------------
Korea,samaliya,'nam,iraq exe....
Dont even go there,tell about me destruction.
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Korea???
What on earth are you talking about? Who started that war? Was it the Soviet backed North that invaded the western south?
Vietnam???
Which side started that one? Who again was trying to invade and take over the other, western oriented southern half?
Are you insane?
You are insane, right?
Are you getting help?
OK since ATA is clearly insane lets just discuss his illness, can anybody comment about what would be required to have somebody turn out like him?
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Ever been there Fu#ker?Ask russians if it was hell.
:rofl
Yes I've been there. I traveled through the country with a car. I strongly encourage everyone to do the same and then you know what I'm talking about.
// EDIT: Not exactly THROUGH the country as it is huge. I mean I traveled in the western parts and turned back around after st.petersburg. Was quite enough to be seen anyway.
The russians themselves may not think it was hell. They simply do not understand how different things may have been. Years of absolute propaganda and strict limitations of traveling made sure of that.
Now that order changed people are stuck with the communist induced filth, lack of superstructure, high crime and ghastly corruption on every imaginable level. Only now they don't get their lunch (however measly it was) for free anymore.
So they're angry. They blame the capitalists. The poor bastards think capitalism made their life worse when in fact they're experiencing the widthdrawal symptoms of a bad, bad acid trip called a communist dictatorship.
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Originally posted by Toad
[...]
Illegally? Treaty of Riga? 1932 Non-aggression pact? 1934 Non-aggression pact extension? 1938 Non-aggression pact reaffirmation?
Looks like the Soviets acted illegally to me. Or do you suggest that the signataure of Russia on a document is worthless?
By Sept. 17th 1939 Polish State ceased to exist. USSR simply took back the lands that were considered Russian (USSR and RSFSR) by international community before Polish aggression in 1920. See "Curzon line".
The fact that Soviet advance in Western Ukraine and Belorussia in 1939 was not an "aggression" is proven by the reaction of "allies" who guaranteed Polish borders.
l
I don't even mention multiple violations by Riga cease-fire agreement by Poish side.
Funny, it's OK for Poland to rape Czechoslovakia together with Hitler, and it's illegal for USSR to take back the land populated by it's main nationalities. Toad, please, do something about your double-standards.
Funny that you mentioned Semyon Petlyura. Shows pretty much about your general knowledge besides cut-n-paste.
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The russians themselves may not think it was hell. They simply do not understand how different things may have been. Years of absolute propaganda and strict limitations of traveling made sure of that.
Now that order changed people are stuck with the communist induced filth, lack of superstructure, high crime and ghastly corruption on every imaginable level. Only now they don't get their lunch (however measly it was) for free anymore.
So they're angry. They blame the capitalists. The poor bastards think capitalism made their life worse when in fact they're experiencing the widthdrawal symptoms of a bad, bad acid trip called a communist dictatorship.
----------------------------------------
As far as i know whole world hates USA.
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Well then you fit right in ATA...
How can they not hate the USA when its just like Soviet Union and Nazi Germany..
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As far as i know whole world hates USA.
That only shows how misinformed you guys are.
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Как меня достал этот Квака-Задавака!
Вот такие недоумки-отличники политподготовки из ВВС США и придумывают заёбшую всех дерьмократизацию всего и вся, и пусть никто не уйдёт не обиженным.
Немудрено что ему мозговую клизьму ставили по полной, он летал на Д.В., шапиёнил против наших в 80-е.
Toad, your mental conditioning that you recieved in USAF still works. Your brainwashers should be proud. Kill all the Russians, they are EEEVIL!
Did you have an order to commit suicide if shot down over USSR? Just curious, how far your conditioning went... :rolleyes:
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Daaamn that Beevor again...
Nothing new.
Boring cold-war propaganda.
I can call it "bigotry". Racist ideas are still popular in US? No surprise. "Asian hordes of Jewish bolsheviks". Or is it just an adoption of nazi ideas of racial superiority over "asian untermenshen"?
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Originally posted by ATA
Tell me, what's your explanation for the brutality of the NKVD at Katyn Forest?
-----------------
Order of Stalin.
Your turn.
Sorry for Russian again.
Я ему уже 1000 раз повторял, ХЗ кто там мочканул пшеков. Комиссия Бурденко показала чётко: это сделали уберменьши в 41. Бумажки, которые он мне показывал - очевидная фальшивка. Мочили их из немецкого оружия. В 40 году там (в Катынском лесу) была зона отдыха и пионерлагеря. Это у меня вызывает некоторые сомнения. Ему же из-за океана всё ясно. Горбатый вообще готов был признаться что коммунисты Христа распяли, жаль - не успел :mad:
Вобщем - вэй ту гоу, нехай повторяют то что придумал Геббельс в 43м году. Вопреки здравому смыслу. Блаженны нищие духом и скорбные умом.
Рекомендую по вопросу Катыни книгу Мухина "Катынский детектив". Мухин - известный пиздобол, но если отбросить его бредни про "прогнившую польскую верхушку" и даже ставя под сомнение мало-мальски неочевидные рассуждения - всё равно заставляет задуматься. http://www.patriotica.ru/history/muhin_katyn_.html
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Originally posted by ATA
"uncivilized barbarians" could not create such people as ciolkovskiy,rahmaninov,sikorskiy,tolstoy,pushkin................
People you never heard of.
I bet they never knew who were and are Hachaturyan, Bagramyan, Tigran Petrosyan, Babayan and other your Compatriots.
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Heh post more links to 'patriotic russian.ru' web sites telling the 'truth' of the heroic acts of the red army :rofl
Wasn't russian word for information 'propaganda?' It's so becoming.
Boroda you know what's the common denominator between all great persons that came out of russia?
That's right, they CAME OUT of russia. :aok
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Originally posted by AirWцlf
This is one case where I'd say, "Forget the Geneva Convention crap" and let Russia Torture these illiterate bastards till they are dead. Every.. Last.. One of them.
As far as I remember - Geneva conventions don't apply to police operations.
They are punished according to the laws of Russian Federation.
If tortures happen - they must be persecuted according to Russian laws. All the crap from "human rights watch" etc needs to be proved. So far it's a hallucination of mentaly disabled suffering from the same phobia as Toad.
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блять,как они заебали!!Они такие пездатые что решают как остальным жить.
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ATA are you a former citizen of ussr?
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Originally posted by ATA
блять,как они заебали!!Они такие пездатые что решают как остальным жить.
Отож.
Учение Маркса всесильно потому что оно верно.
Народ и партия едины.
Планы партии - планы народа.
И так далее, ad nauseum.
За что, блядь, боролись...
Через года два будут бомбить бульбашей. Когда дело до нас дойдёт?...
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Wasn't russian word for information 'propaganda?' It's so becoming.
Boroda you know what's the common denominator between all great persons that came out of russia?
That's right, they CAME OUT of russia.
-----------------------------------------------
You are full of "propaganda" as well.
Obvsly you know nothing about great persons that STAYED in Russia.
You so convinsed with you greateness that you need tell the rest of the world how to live.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Heh post more links to 'patriotic russian.ru' web sites telling the 'truth' of the heroic acts of the red army :rofl
Wasn't russian word for information 'propaganda?' It's so becoming.
"Patriotic" now means "opposing to official pro-Western propaganda".
The most stunning discovery for many people here was that clumsy and unprofessional Soviet propaganda was true on many things.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Boroda you know what's the common denominator between all great persons that came out of russia?
That's right, they CAME OUT of russia. :aok
Yeah!
Sergey Korolev! Dmitry Shostakovich! Michail Sholohov! Michail Kalashnikov! Lev Landau! Sergei Kapitsa! Nikolay Semenov! Lev Gumilev! Ivan Pavlov!
Sorry, I'll be too tired typing this list.
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GRUNHERZ
Yes i am former.I seen both coulters.Three actualy,i'm armenian
was born in Baku had to run from there in 1987.There was a war,5 thousand armenians were killed becose they cristians.
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Well frankly then ATA you are full of old soviet communist propaganda so I understand why you say the things you do.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The people in west Berlin were driving Porsches and Ferraris quite soon after the war. They drank good wine and enjoyed steak dinners.
Another myth.
From what I know from my friends who live in West Germany now - until 70s it was a sign of great prosperity to have a warm toilet there.
As for Porshes and Ferraries - my Grandfather served in East Germany and his home was at the West Berlin highway.
Mostly Americans were driving fancy cars. He arrested one of them, who "lost his way" and went inside Soviet military convoy :D Delivered him to authorities, they said "We know this guy" and thanked him... It was in late-50s.
Anyway, try to find a German film called "Goodbye Lenin". A very touching movie about Germany. And it's opposing to my POW, but I advise to watch it anyway ;)
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Well frankly then ATA you are full of old soviet communist propaganda so I understand why you say the things you do.
-------------------------
You are full of cold war propaganda and i anderstand why you say the things you do.
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grun, thats not exactly fair. couldnt we assume that you too are full of foriegn propaganda?
its another persons perspective and most of us have little idea what the soviet union was really like.
probably because we got plugged up with our own propaganda.
now, dont get me wrong, i dont agree with most of whats being said...but i think this whole "ameri-hater" thing is pretty much bunk and would best be labled as armchair depth psychology.
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So Boroda are you saying that there was no difference in the standard of living between east and west germany?
its another persons perspective and most of us have little idea what the soviet union was really like.
With at least one exception.. I've been there both when it was USSR and then later after the breakup.
After the second trip I called it quits - mainly for personal safety.
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Can you guys tell me the great hum,anitarian reasons for the blocade of Berlin in 1948 and the wall in 1961?
My imperialost education taught me that thse were agressives moves to starve west berlin and later to stop people fleeing the pvevery and opression of east Germany by going to western berlin.
I would love to know the pravda and patriotica.ru true story of these events!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well frankly then ATA you are full of old soviet communist propaganda so I understand why you say the things you do.
You have to understand what happened in Baku in 1987-90. My cousin was in Baku in 1990...
Was it possible in Soviet times? I mean - before Gorby? No! Gorby sent troops to Baku only after the slaughter was finished... My cousin was a cadet (kursant) on a "law-enforcement mission" and saw what happened there... :mad:
ATA, we have an Azerbaijanian AH pilot here, Fariz. He has his own view on a conflict, like "10% of Azerbaijan is occupied now", but I hope you can find understanding... :(
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So Boroda are you saying that there was no difference in the standard of living between east and west germany?
Before late-60s - probably East Germany lived better. My opinion is based on the things told by my firends, and on what my family saw there, Grandfater was a commander of Portable Missile-technical base in a Group of Soviet troops in 57-65 there.
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Boroda!!
а де можна надыбать серпак с молоточком такойже як у тя?
Или типа таво?
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Why you guys arguing with someone who is so obviously ignorant, they are unable to understand HOW to use the "quote" key to reply to threads?
(sigh) слабоумный
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you also have to understand that as we are TODAY spreading our influence globally...so did the soviets (albeit with a more sinister package)
it failed.
but it shouldnt be an indictment of the soviet people any more than our current actions should be an indictment of the american people.
good or bad. we are extending our reach.
whats more, and even worse for us is the immediate moves by our own government to adopt rhetoric and laws that seemed ominously close to the old "spy on your neighbor" stories that we heard about the russians.
the patriot act may have come dangerously close to defending our country by turning inward.
thankfully, the danger seems to have passed...but it is still there...and we are not above it so long as we are willing to forget the lessons of others.
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Originally posted by ATA
You are full of cold war propaganda and i anderstand why you say the things you do.
You bet!
I was a youth comunist pioneer back in the day myself. I wonder where my little red star, bandana and blue hat are now.
I know what a proper communist party education was...
:aok
Now as for you, ATA, you simply dont have have the will or the ability to break from your brainwashing.
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My opinion is based on the things told by my firends, and on what my family saw there, Grandfater was a commander of Portable Missile-technical base in a Group of Soviet troops in 57-65 there.
I wasn't asking about the priviledged few, I mean the normal population.
You must realize that nobody could critisize the government or the way of life down there because of stasi, electronical eavesdropping and a vast spy network consisting of regular citizens? The official truth has always been quite amazing. I still remember the stories of a few russians who entered the western world for the first time.
They were looking around eyes round. They could not believe we had (back then) several vcr's, tv's etc. Or the quality of the cars and housing. Or the fact that I had access to pr0n (heh, I was 15 go figga.. :p )
-
Boroda
-----------------------
Person is smart,people are dumb.
I have no homeland anymore,cant even visit Baku.
Whats the point of understanding,most of players wont even talk if the Eng is a 2d language.
Exept for Ghi and myself.(Bish country)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Before late-60s - probably East Germany lived better. My opinion is based on the things told by my firends, and on what my family saw there, Grandfater was a commander of Portable Missile-technical base in a Group of Soviet troops in 57-65 there.
Late 1960s eh?
Is that why the Berlin wall was put up in 1961... To stop masses of vital professional types from fleeing your east german wonderland...
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Originally posted by ATA
Boroda
-----------------------
Person is smart,people are dumb.
I have no homeland anymore,cant even visit Baku.
Whats the point of understanding,most of players wont even talk if the Eng is a 2d language.
Exept for Ghi and myself.(Bish country)
Well be sure to know you are welcome in the USA, even if you are a brainwashed communist with no ability to think for himslef or appreciate the advantages of this nation!
:)
But seriously I can sympathize with you feeling of being cut off from your home for a long time due to conflict, I know it first hand. Hope you can visit some time there again.
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:rolleyes:
alas, the newly converted.
the political equivelant of born again.
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Newly converted? I've been here for a long time... Certainly long enough to see the differences in great contrast.
Odd JB88, why do you need to downplay my support of the idea that the USA is much better than USSR?
Surely you must see that to be the truth? Or can you not resist knocking down this nation at every turn?
But heck, you are the guy who think 911 was a US government planned attack so I guess that puts youn in ATA camp where the USA is as bad a Nazi Germany or the USSR...
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"appreciate the advantages of this nation"
i'm sure Hitler would say something like that.
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Well be sure to know you are welcome in the USA, even if you are a brainwashed communist with no ability to think for himslef or appreciate the advantages of this nation!
Are you sure? That wasn't true at all not so long ago. Just the mention of the 'c' word meant no-go as far as I know. :)
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So now the USA is like Nazi germany?
Why do you choose to live here if it's so bad and terrible?
Could it be that no other nation would care to take you in and give you a chance at a new better life?
You are pathetic....
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"appreciate the advantages of this nation"
i'm sure Hitler would say something like that.
Hell, if it's true then it's true. The message doesn't change by the person who says it.
I never heard that from a soviet mouth though.
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Oh my God this going,nowere:)
I never said that USA is same as Naziz.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Hell, if it's true then it's true. The message doesn't change by the person who says it.
I never heard that from a soviet mouth though.
Hey now, they had enough potatoes for the winter, most of the time!
;)
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Grunherz isn't it weird we've posted at least 10 times without flaming eachothers once? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by ATA
Oh my God this going,nowere:)
I never said that USA is same as Naziz.
No of course not, the Hitler reference was never meant to tie the USA to the Nazis...
You are ruight tho, going nowhere..
Really, shouldnt you be looking up other places to escape this evil USA to?
I hear North Korea is simply gorgeus this time of the year. A true siocialist workers paradise, like the ussr!
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Grunherz isn't it weird we've posted at least 10 times without flaming eachothers once? :rolleyes:
Shocking! Keep up the good work bud! :)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, your mental conditioning that you recieved in USAF still works. Your brainwashers should be proud. Kill all the Russians, they are EEEVIL!
Did you have an order to commit suicide if shot down over USSR? Just curious, how far your conditioning went... :rolleyes:
You're so brainwashed there's soapsuds continually running out of both your ears. The evidence of that is right here on this BBS.
I never wanted to kill anyone, let alone Russians. However any REALISTIC assessment of history is going to show the Grun has it absolutely nailed. He's so correct it bears repeating.
The Soviet Union was one of the greatest forces for evil and human destruction during its 75 some odd years. No other entity brough so much death, misery and enslavement to the world in such a short time. They were even jointly and directly responsible for the start or WW2 for agreeing to ally themsekves with Nazi Germay in their combined and coordinated attack on Poland in September 1939.
As for Poland, your contention that the State of Poland ceased to exist is Bullshirt on multiple levels.
Did France cease to exist when the Germans occupied it? Did Belgium? Did Norway? No... they were just occupied countries... just like Poland. But I'm sure your Communist brainwashing overlooked that little detail.
Additionally, the Red Army INVADED Poland WITHOUT PROVOCATION in DIRECT VIOLATION of the agreements the SOVIET UNION signed with Poland.
To wit:
1932, Poland and Soviet-Russia sign a non-aggression pact, once again reaffirming the Treaty of Riga and the ceding of these territories to Poland.
In 1934 the non-aggression pact is extended. No mention of wanting the territories back then either.
In 1938 the non-aggression pact is reaffirmed.
Sept. 17, 1939, The Red Army invades Poland in accordance with Nazi-Soviet Pact and in violation of the above treaties with Poland
On Sept. 27, 1939 Warsaw falls to the Nazis. 10 DAYS after the Red Army invades. Clearly Poland had not only continued to exist after the Red Army invasion, it's capital didn't even fall until 10 days after the Russians invaded.
On Nov. 30, 1939, the Red Army attacks Finland. Why was that? I thought you folks didn't invade other countries. :rofl
It's clear that a treaty signed by the Soviet Union was best used for wiping one's bum. Since that's how the Soviets used it.
Capture by the Soviet Union?
Did I ever tell you I met John McKone while I was in?
This John McKone:
Such an event occurred July 1, 1960, when an RB-47H from the 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing was on a standard electronic reconnaissance mission over the Barents Sea, probing the Soviet radar system. On board was the standard three-man B-47 crew plus three electronic warfare officers.
The RB-47 was outside of Soviet airspace when cannon fire from a MiG-19 interceptor smashed into its wing and engines, sending it into a flat spin. The crew ejected, but the only survivors were the copilot, 1st Lt. Freeman Bruce Olmstead, and navigator, 1st Lt. John McKone. They were captured, incarcerated in the Lubyanka prison in Moscow, and released after being confined for several months.
After I talked with him and he discussed his treatment, I decided your military wouldn't capture me. I knew I was NEVER going into Lubyanka.
But, all that's expected when dealing with the folks that brought you Katyn Forest.
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of course i do grun.
and i dont doubt that you have seen contrast. it must offer a great perspective.
no. i dont think that (9/11 planned by government. ) ive never once said that so you can just put your label back in your label jar thank you.
and id be pretty well damned if i would take your accusations seriously anyway.
here you are...spouting freedom at the top of your lungs and yet you find nothing wrong with trying to place the metaphoric equivelent of a yellow star or a scarlet "L" on people who dont emphatically share your views.
its a recent phenomena in america and its getting worse. believe me, it isnt doing us any good. when people get so drawn into being right and calling names...no one LISTENS. NO ONE WINS.
but perhaps that is because others who were brainwashed elsewhere are bringing thier own predjudices over here right?
you can put me into any camp that you want to if it makes you feel better, but placing a lable on anyone in a negative manner is merely a form of hostile organization brought on by something else.
you can call me an ameri-hater or a conspiracist or whatever. but by god, ive been here my whole life and the only conspiracies that i believe are that oswald didnt act alone and i have a gyut feeling that the plane was, in fact, shot down over pennsylvania.
if that makes me all of those things in your little world then by all means, please feel free to go back to the country you crawled out of because we believe in the exchange of ideas, the possibility of a questions and we certainly dont believe in tryranical mindsets that disavow the right to be who you are without being judged.
at our core...we are the antithesis of those things.
thats why weve flourished.
:) :)
-
To tell you the truth, I'm starting to feel bad about all this bashing of ATA and Boroda. Especially Boroda.
Aferall, he still has to live down there. Not like he needs more trouble in his life. :(
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No of course not, the Hitler reference was never meant to tie the USA to the Nazis...
You are ruight tho, going nowhere..
Really, shouldnt you be looking up other places to escape this evil USA to?
I hear North Korea is simply gorgeus this time of the year. A true siocialist workers paradise, like the ussr!
Ok,you got me.
USA is good USSR is very bad.
White people good black are bad.
Arians good Jews are bad.
You place is here
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JB88
thanks for making learn how to quote
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:aok
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Nice post 88..
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
To tell you the truth, I'm starting to feel bad about all this bashing of ATA and Boroda. Especially Boroda.
Aferall, he still has to live down there. Not like he needs more trouble in his life. :(
I feel bad for them too.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I feel bad for them too.
Should i expect you brake into my house and tell me how to live?
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Originally posted by ATA
Should i expect you brake into my house and tell me how to live?
No.
You're not in Russia any more.
You're here. Relax.
After a few years, you'll realize how it is here.
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I would feel bad for them but they've still got their lips glued to the Kool-aid cup despite the evidence that surrounds them.
If they want to keep chuggin' the Kool-aid... well, I can't feel for them since they should know better and seem to be enjoying themselves despite that fact.
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Originally posted by Toad
No.
You're not in Russia any more.
You're here. Relax.
After a few years, you'll realize how it is here.
I'm greatfull to be here.
It scares me to be any where else,you never know when or where USA is gonna level another weaker counry to "establish democracy",just like USSR did to establish communism.
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You do know the difference between Iraq today and the USSR you left, right?
In Iraq, when they went to vote they actually had a choice of more then one candidate.
(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.main/story.iraq.just.voted.ap.jpg)
Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue.
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Even the Afghans had a choice of more than one candidate and more than one party.
(http://www.globalaging.org/armedconflict/countryreports/afghanistan/voter.1.jpg)
Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue.
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Originally posted by Toad
You do know the difference between Iraq today and the USSR you left, right?
In Iraq, when they went to vote they actually had a choice of more then one candidate.
(http://[url]http://photos1.blogger.com/img/202/1284/640/capt.bag13909301347.iraq_bag139.jpg[/url])
She loves you very much i bet.
Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue.
-
(http://photos1.blogger.com/img/202/1284/640/capt.bag13909301347.iraq_bag139.jpg)
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(http://www.robert-fisk.com/bloodied_iraqichild.jpg)
Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue.
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A victim of Taliban’s atrocities in Herat.
(http://www.rawa.org/herat.jpg)
Let's see.. brutality like the USSR practiced on the Poles and Germans or....
Freedom.
No real doubt which they would choose, is there?
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Of course, in your picture there's no attribution.
Was the child killed by a car bomb? Iraqi on Iraqi violence? You know, like what Stalin did to the Ukrainians ?
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Originally posted by Toad
Let's see.. brutality like the USSR practiced on the Poles and Germans or....
Freedom.
No real doubt which they would choose, is there?
(http://www.robert-fisk.com/1_146406_1_6.jpg)
Sure,vote or die.
Firs it was oil,
then it became weapons of mass distraction(didnt find any)
and than
IRAQI FREEDOM.
Wich one is it?
They didnt ask you for that freedom.
P.S.
Was the guy that hanging a criminal?
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For me it was WMD. They didn't find them so as far as I'm concerned we were wrong to invade.
However, since we DID invade, I feel we ought to do the best we can to help them set up a free society and a democratic form of government before we leave.
That's what we're doing. We'll leave them better off than they were.
Too bad the Russians can't say the same thing about Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and East Germany,Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
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Originally posted by Toad
For me it was WMD. They didn't find them so as far as I'm concerned we were wrong to invade.
However, since we DID invade, I feel we ought to do the best we can to help them set up a free society and a democratic form of government before we leave.
Yeah i got it,level and establish that whatever YOU think is better.
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Originally posted by Toad
That's what we're doing. We'll leave them better off than they were.
Too bad the Russians can't say the same thing about Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and East Germany,Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
They were supported by USSR for 75 years,cars,weapons,money It was easyer to by a car in those countryes than in USSR itself.
The reason why USSR went bankcrupt.(one of them)
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LOL!
What I think is better?
Over the weekend, Iraq held its first election in decades in the wake of the fall of Saddam Hussein. While the numbers are still coming in, MSNBC reported that there were 14 million eligible voters in Iraq. It was predicted before the election that eight million of those eligible would turn out; according to MSNBC, the final tally of voters will most likely exceed that 57 percent.
An amazing turnout considering that brutal murders had promised to wash the streets with voters blood.
Iraqis will select from a list of 111 political parties, each with its own lengthy slate of candidates that can include between 12 and 275 names
Wow! 111 political parties!! How many were there where you came from? :rofl
Looks like they had plenty of choices and they voted in large numbers.
It's hardly "whatever" the US or I thought was better.
It's an IRAQI election.
Tough for you to understand, eh? See... we let them pick their own leadership. Not a bit like what Russian did to Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and East Germany,Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
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Originally posted by ATA
They were supported by USSR for 75 years,cars,weapons,money It was easyer to by a car in those countryes than in USSR itself.
The reason why USSR went bankcrupt.(one of them)
How sad!
They had "the good life" compared to you in the USSR?
Cripes, must have broke your heart when you saw how incredibly far behind East Germany was when they opened the border to West Germany.
No wonder you're bitter.
Well, that's all behind you now.
Just accept that the brutality was uncalled for and it's over now.
And that brutality isn't the answer.
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ahhh ata is a ruskie! I honestly dont care for russians. dont trust em. cant engineer crap, gotta steal everything they ever made of any genuine value.
wait! ruskies invented ici warbirds lol
:rofl
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Originally posted by Toad
LOL!
What I think is better?
An amazing turnout considering that brutal murders had promised to wash the streets with voters blood.
Wow! 111 political parties!! How many were there where you came from? :rofl
Looks like they had plenty of choices and they voted in large numbers.
It's hardly "whatever" the US or I thought was better.
It's an IRAQI election.
Forced elections,they just want you to get the hell out of there.
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Forced? You really haven't mentally put your time in Russia behind you.
Poor fellow.
Has anyone forced you to vote here in America? Of course not. And no one is forcing Iraqis or Afghanis to vote either. You know this, it just hurts to admit it, doesn't it?
You'll be OK in a few more years.
They weren't forced. Au contraire; Zarqawi and his brutal terrorists tried to force those voters to stay home.
Instead, they defied him and turned out in droves.
Think of it man.... democratic voting in an area of the world where that concept is essentially unheard of. And WOMEN voting in an Islamic country!
It's FREEDOM, baby. No one's forcing these folks!
Check out that smile!
(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.main/story.iraq.just.voted.ap.jpg)
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Originally posted by Yeager
ahhh ata is a ruskie! I honestly dont care for russians. dont trust em. cant engineer crap, gotta steal everything they ever made of any genuince value.
:rofl
cant engineer crap?
Helicopter,weapons,rocket engine(ciolkovskiy),periodic table of mendeleev,space stations......
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You never even met one,and yet you know as brutal.
It does hurt.
-
you know us as brutal i meant to say
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Sorry again. I know some Russians. I wouldn't say they are brutal.
But there is no denying the past brutality Russian in incidents like Katyn Forest.
There's no denying that the Russians (and Chechens) have been incredibly brutal in Chechnya.
There's also no denying that such brutality just continues and endless circle of violence.
Just like Nashawn told you pages ago in this thread.
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"There's also no denying that such brutality just continues and endless circle of violence. "
(http://www.doublestandards.org/kimphuc.jpg)
children running from thier villiage in vietnam after it was struck with napalm.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Columbine.jpg)
natural born american killers.
i couldnt agree more.
:aok
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Is war bad? No kidding? Thanks.
Was Columbine bad? No kidding? Thanks.
Very enlightening.
-
you are welcome.
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Originally posted by Toad
Sorry again. I know some Russians. I wouldn't say they are brutal.
But there is no denying the past brutality Russian in incidents like Katyn Forest.
There's no denying that the Russians (and Chechens) have been incredibly brutal in Chechnya.
There's also no denying that such brutality just continues and endless circle of violence.
Just like Nashawn told you pages ago in this thread.
agree,nice talking to you.
-
ATA,
Just out of curiousity - are you going to fly? Because I know the O-club squad idea is still floating around out there - and this thread really needs to die.
Wolf
-
Originally posted by Wolfala
ATA,
Just out of curiousity - are you going to fly? Because I know the O-club squad idea is still floating around out there - and this thread really needs to die.
Wolf
Oh yes,i'm done.
-
Checking avatar....
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Originally posted by ATA
Boroda!!
а де можна надыбать серпак с молоточком такойже як у тя?
Или типа таво?
Аська 4627619. Есть анимированный Красный Флаг :) Только я по размерам не проверял, влезет ли здесь на аватар..
Или просто письмо отправь. Адрес в профиле есть, через ББ отправляется нормально.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Аська 4627619. Есть анимированный Красный Флаг :) Только я по размерам не проверял, влезет ли здесь на аватар..
Или просто письмо отправь. Адрес в профиле есть, через ББ отправляется нормально.
I disagree.
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The use of red army symbols should be banned on the same basis as nazi symbols are.
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What emigre to the US wouldn't want a Russian red flag in his avatar Grun?
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Easy to kill when you sit in your sofa telling people to do that :(
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Easy to sit in the sauna and let people be slaughtered by brutal butchers, too.
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Originally posted by Toad
Easy to sit in the sauna and let people be slaughtered by brutal butchers, too.
not having a sauna then :)
but still having the ability to think my own toughts. :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I disagree.
Sorry for having another advantage over you, Grun.
I can read your language, and you can't read mine.
Didn't you study Serbian Cyrillic in Croatian school? Many Serbs use Croatian Latin spelling on the Internet... Sometimes it's easier for me to read Serbo-Croatian then my almost-native Ukrainian ;)
In some posts here I use Russian "argot" to make it impossible to translate with robo-translators like Babelfish, but I think that you must be able to understand at least some things...
And please, don't pretend to be a "victim of evil communist regime". You were probably too young to remember anything. I am 32 and saw only the end of it all, was a Comsomol memeber (Young Communist) since 1987. And a Young Pioneer since 1982. I really hated all this "creative political and social activity". The good thing was that this miserable organisations encouraged kids to go hiking, that I enjoyed very much.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The use of red army symbols should be banned on the same basis as nazi symbols are.
Ban the US symbols too.
I try to remember something like Song Mi in modern Russian military history.
BTW, the most detailed article I have read about Song Mi was published on Chechen website after 09/11. Was removed in a matter of days, strange, isn't it?...
And again I have to advise you and try to find an Austrian State Emblem, will be really educating.
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Ban the US symbols too.
I try to remember something like Song Mi in modern Russian military history.
I'm convinced that the history you've read doesn't include anything bad. In fact, when I visited the war museum in st.petersburg, even major battles lost by russia were.. hmm.. missing :aok
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I'm convinced that the history you've read doesn't include anything bad. In fact, when I visited the war museum in st.petersburg, even major battles lost by russia were.. hmm.. missing :aok
War museum in Leningrad? Interesting. Which one?
Siege museum? It's all about the siege. I still feel sick when I visit it, I knew too many people who survived the Siege...
Navy museum? There is a huge section about Russo-Japanese war.
Artillery/Engineering Corps museum? It's more about equipment, no serious coverage of historical events.
Chesma battle museum? It's dedicated to one naval battle.
Trying to remember other "war museums" in SPb. Sorry, I lived there for 10 years and really enjoyed all kinds of museums.
Oops, forgot Aurora cruiser, it has a huge section about Tsushima battle...
Please tell me what museum you mean, it will be really eye-opening for a person who was born in Leningrad. I prefer to call my city "Leningrad", SPb is too difficult for Russian tongue, Sankt-Peterburg, that "nktp" is too much even for a Russian...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sorry for having another advantage over you, Grun.
I can read your language, and you can't read mine.
Didn't you study Serbian Cyrillic in Croatian school? Many Serbs use Croatian Latin spelling on the Internet... Sometimes it's easier for me to read Serbo-Croatian then my almost-native Ukrainian ;)
In some posts here I use Russian "argot" to make it impossible to translate with robo-translators like Babelfish, but I think that you must be able to understand at least some things...
And please, don't pretend to be a "victim of evil communist regime". You were probably too young to remember anything. I am 32 and saw only the end of it all, was a Comsomol memeber (Young Communist) since 1987. And a Young Pioneer since 1982. I really hated all this "creative political and social activity". The good thing was that this miserable organisations encouraged kids to go hiking, that I enjoyed very much.
I remember plenty, was a pioneer like you. The little songs were great. I al;so loved it when the political police came for my uncle on one of my birthdays, what a memory!
But I underst your need to dismiss my experiences because I draw a sharp contrast between me and your fantastoical ravings about the woinders of communism.
You are a fool Boroda, plain and simple.
Your text doesnt appear on my computer screen as cyrilic, the characters are more like elvish as in lotr. :)
-
Sorry, forgot to ask - what wars "lost by Russia" can you name right now out of your memory? Just curious. Let's see who will name more.
-
afghanistan.
what did i win?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I remember plenty, was a pioneer like you. The little songs were great. I al;so loved it when the political police came for my uncle on one of my birthdays, what a memory!
Political police? Did Tito's Yugoslavia have any? In USSR we didn't have such advanced tools of opression :(
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But I underst your need to dismiss my experiences because I draw a sharp contrast between me and your fantastoical ravings about the woinders of communism.
Grun, you left Yugoslavia when you were 15 IIRC. It was 5 years after that great country broke apart. Did you have Young Pioneers in independant Croatia?
Don't tell me that you were opressed for your political views in kindergarten, please!
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You are a fool Boroda, plain and simple.
Not as simple as you see it. For me - you are a dangerous fool.
Now go tell ATA about how effective Croatian genocide in Srpska Krajna was, how many problems it solved and how humanistic it really was.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Your text doesnt appear on my computer screen as cyrilic, the characters are more like elvish as in lotr. :)
Try to change character encoding to "Cyrillic - Windows 1251". At least in FireFox it works this way. Cyr. font pack is availible through Windows Update I think.
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Originally posted by JB88
afghanistan.
Not lost. Withdrawn by Gorby.
Originally posted by JB88
what did i win?
You now can bear Hammer (4th level, +2 units in Labour) and Sickle (5th level, +1 in Agriculture) ;)
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Dont know wehat they were called, but they werent regular police... Later I learned all this was about some bizzare political dealings or something.
Anyway, it doesnt really matter now. Communism is gone, and good riddance.
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I said major battles, not wars. If I recall correctly there was a major battle that caused major casualties but left totally unnoticed.
Unfortunately my visit was about 10 years ago so I've completely forgot about the name. It was however the museum for some elite regiment, damned if I remember which.
I wouldn't have even realized anything (naturally) unless my guide told this as a funny anecdote. I could later verify the story from western sources.
But sorry I only remember the context and the surrealism of having selective history. This is why I understand your way of though completely Boroda.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I said major battles, not wars. If I recall correctly there was a major battle that caused major casualties but left totally unnoticed.
Unfortunately my visit was about 10 years ago so I've completely forgot about the name. It was however the museum for some elite regiment, damned if I remember which.
I wouldn't have even realized anything (naturally) unless my guide told this as a funny anecdote. I could later verify the story from western sources.
But sorry I only remember the context and the surrealism of having selective history. This is why I understand your way of though completely Boroda.
Well, a battle completely lost in a war that was won? I bet you think it should be the in the main exposition, much more worth mentioning then the won battles! :D
With our military history we have a right to skip some battles, won or lost, otherwise it will be impossible to concentrate on anything. 1000 years of wars only since Christening of Russia.
With over 1000 years of history - it's quite obvious that some museums are "selective".
BTW, I still don't remember any big museum in SPb dedicated to "some elite regiment". Maybe it was re-opened after Soviet times? My Father's Engineering College is situated in Lieb-Guards Cavalry Regiment quarters, and after 1991 they restored some historical parts of it.
When I was a kid - I was studying all availible materials about Russo-Japanese war. A total failure of Russian military. It was covered at least no less then any "victorious" war in school history textbooks, and I was able to find tons of information about it in open sources. Absolutely the same thing about Crimean war 1852-55.
With our history we can probably skip some wars, not speaking of battles. For example - if you ask me about 7-years war, when Russian Army took Berlin for the first time in XVIII century, I'll probably remember only the Kunensdorf (sp?) battle. And I don't remember almost anything about endless Russo-Turkish wars since XVII century, except some major battles, won or lost. So it goes. Noone is perfect. Even people who earn their money by teaching history usually can't tell anything about, for example, a battle of Zholty Vody.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Not lost. Withdrawn by Gorby.
You now can bear Hammer (4th level, +2 units in Labour) and Sickle (5th level, +1 in Agriculture) ;)
um. waterloo. forces withdrawn by napoleon.
:rolleyes:
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Boroda ow many large battles has russia lost since ww1?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Food for thought
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"When is a thread actually dead?"
There are two main camps in this discussion. Some will argue that a thread that hasn't been responded to in a certain amount of time (be it a day or month) is dead. Variations on this include threads that leave the first page of the summary view or threads that don't have enough participants to keep it afloat among other, more active threads.
The other camp says that a thread never actually dies, but instead enters a state of suspended animation. "There's no technological reason", they argue, "why a 10 year old message can't be responded to if there is new information." In fact, this group will argue that a thread can continue until the very heat death of the universe precludes further conversation.
I submit evidence that ATA is a member of group #2.
Maybe he's right
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thread entropy?
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Originally posted by JB88
um. waterloo. forces withdrawn by napoleon.
:rolleyes:
Russia denies loss in Afghan,US denies it in 'Nam.
I can live with that
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Boroda ow many large battles has russia lost since ww1?
Umpteen.
But we have won more ;)
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Originally posted by ATA
Russia denies loss in Afghan,US denies it in 'Nam.
I can live with that
It's intersting to watch Central Television this days. I have seen some "expert" saying that an Afghan adventure was nessesary and reasonable, that the problem of drugs and Moslim extremism had to be solved...
Strange times...
BTW, my best friend has a Combat Merit (Za boevie zaslugi) from Afghanistan, was wounded there, 1985-87, and he says they didn't experience any problems like what we see from US forces in Vietnam. "Shuravi" in Afghanistan is still a friedly word.
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Такой хуйнёй нихуя не прадвинеж,они проста мазги выебут.
Нада пакароче отпёздываца шоп капи анд пейст им не хуй была.
Спасиба за инфа,йа скантактираюсь стабой.
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Originally posted by Boroda
"Shuravi" in Afghanistan is still a friedly word.
Не слыхал такое словечко……что это? .
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Originally posted by ATA
Такой хуйнёй нихуя не прадвинеж,они проста мазги выебут.
Нада пакароче отпёздываца шоп капи анд пейст им не хуй была.
Спасиба за инфа,йа скантактираюсь стабой.
Делаим шо могём, у меру сил :)
Некоторых заствляит задумацца :)
Фсё, я поползл до дому... До завтрева!
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Originally posted by Russian
Не слыхал такое словечко……что это? .
Шурави - "советский".
Внатуре - многие до сих пор готовы падать ниц... Опосля кокосовой дерьмократии поминают нас с радостию.
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Originally posted by airguard
but still having the ability to think my own toughts. :)
As does everyone. AFAIK, no dictator has yet developed a mind reader.
So all of us can think our own thoughts. In fact, I think that's just how the brain is supposed to work. I'd hate to think your thoughts.
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Well as I recall the regiment retreated with only 20% of it's manpower left so it was quite a significant event. It was damn near abolished..
You would normally think the event history would at least mention something like that.
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Originally posted by ATA
GRUNHERZ
There was a war,5 thousand armenians were killed becose they cristians.
Bull****. And you know it is a bull**** as well, as I do. It is 100000s cristians in Azerbaijan. Can be checked in any source of information. Armenians were killed because they were armenians, it had nothing to do with religion.
I am not a person to defend ethnic clenses. It is ugly, and it is absolutly nothing which can justify it. I want to remind, though, that both sides were involved into it. So when you say that you have no homeland in Baku anymore, you have zero simpathy from me. It is close to a million AZERIES who lost their homes in AZERBAIJAN + around 150000 expelled from Armenia. Get the map of Azerbaijan with the occupied areas, and you will see at once who is agressor in this situation. Blame your own people for your personal problems.
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Originally posted by Fariz
Bull****. And you know it is a bull**** as well, as I do. It is 100000s cristians in Azerbaijan. Can be checked in any source of information. Armenians were killed because they were armenians, it had nothing to do with religion.
I am not a person to defend ethnic clenses. It is ugly, and it is absolutly nothing which can justify it. I want to remind, though, that both sides were involved into it. So when you say that you have no homeland in Baku anymore, you have zero simpathy from me. It is close to a million AZERIES who lost their homes in AZERBAIJAN + around 150000 expelled from Armenia. Get the map of Azerbaijan with the occupied areas, and you will see at once who is agressor in this situation. Blame your own people for your personal problems.
What a load of crap!!!!
Should i remind you sumgait?
After all that you surprised that 150000 Erazov expelled from Armenia?
I dont wanna stand still while there were killing,we had to fight back.
You can shove you simpathy up your ass.Chushka
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The marauding bands of Azeris, armed with makeshift weapons, ransacked Armenian homes, beating and killing the residents under the direct supervision and direction of the municipal authorities of Sumgait. It was a drawn-out, low-tech butchery, much of it perpetrated with knives and iron rods, and the killers often interrupted their work to rape and torture their victims. The legacy of the 1905 pogroms, the September 1918 slaughter of 30,000 Armenians of Baku and the March 1920 annihilation of 20,000 Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh's former capital of Shushi by Azeri and Turkish forces was revived in Azerbaijan.
The February 1988 massacre of Armenians in Sumgait was the first episode of mass ethnic violence in the Soviet history. This Azeri-perpetrated murder of hundreds of civilians — mainly women and the elderly — also resurrected the memories of the 1915 Genocide of Armenians by the Ottoman Turks, in which more than 1.5 million Armenians perished and the West Armenian heartland was erased from the face of the earth. The chauvinistic debauchery in Azerbaijan displaced over 370,000 people — approximately 80% of all Armenians residing in Soviet Azerbaijan. Thus, half-a-million-strong native communities of the historical Armenian provinces of Utik and Paitakaran, which made up part of today's Azerbaijan in the past and existed as flourishing civilizations two millennia before the first proto-Azeri infiltrators first appeared there uninvited, were uprooted and destroyed.[2]
Colonization failed ...
Picture: Escorted by fleeing Azerbaijani troops, Azeri colonists leave Nagorno Karabakh for their wintertime hamlets (called gishlags) in Central Azerbaijan.
In 70s and 80s, thousands of Azeri peasants were relocated to Nagorno Karabakh by the Baku authorities in order to shift Nagorno Karabakh's ethnic balance in favor of Azeris. Duped by Baku's nationalist propaganda, which promised them land and property of ousted Armenians, many of Azeri colonist migrants readily participated in Azerbaijan's ethnic cleansing campaign against the Armenian population of the region, from 1988-1994.
See footnote No. 5 for description
While the Azeri response to Armenian petitions to Moscow was unexpectedly violent, neither the September 1987 Azeri pogrom in Azerbaijan's Armenian-populated town of Chardakhly nor the February 1988 massacre of Armenians in Sumgait was followed by any retaliatory acts directed against ethnic Azeris who resided in the Armenian SSR. For more than a year Armenians showed restraint, well-documented and praised by all leading Soviet human rights defenders and NGOs (e.g. Academician Andrei Sakharov, Yelena Bonner, parliamentarian Galina Starovoitova, the Memorial Group, etc.). It was not until late November 1988 when another — a much larger and state-coordinated — wave of expulsions and massacres of Armenians in the rural areas of Azerbaijan, city of Kirovabad, and Nakhichevani ASSR eventually built up a counter-reaction, resulting in the migration of Azeris from Armenia.
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Here some more,I wanna know what TOAD hase to say.I dont know as much as he does.
But anyway.We all know about armenian genicide,turks dont even deny it.
Largely a side effect of the early 20th century oil boom in the Caspian, the general concept of Azeri nationhood was maligned by factors developed during the industrial revolution in the region. Thus, the closest analogue of Azeri nationalistic attitudes toward the Armenians is anti-Semitism, with concomitant ideas of the "universal conspiracy" of purportedly better-educated and more prosperous Armenians against the young Azerbaijani nation.
These sentiments go back to pre-Soviet times. After the failed Russian revolution of 1905, the Czarist secret police, suspecting Jews and Armenians behind the liberal agitation in Russia, used Cossacks and Azeri bazaar mobs, respectively, for instigating acts of mass hostility against both groups. The result of those policies was the massacre of Armenians in Baku and Nagorno Karabakh by Azeris, which, in turn, coincided with anti-Jewish pogroms in Ukraine, Bessarabia and southern Russia.
The renowned French author of Azeri origin Um-el-Banin, who spent her childhood in Baku, depicts in her memoirs, “Caucasian Days,” the emotional atmosphere among the Azeri nationalist intelligentsia in the beginning of the 20th century. This is how she describes the popular games of Azeri children, who mimicked the behavior of their adult relatives at the time:
“During the holidays we played “Armenian massacres,” which was a game we preferred to all others. Drunk with our racist passions, we used to sacrifice Tamar (who was Armenian by mother) on the altar of our atavistic hatred. First we arbitrarily accused her in the killings of Muslims, and then we executed her immediately, several times in a row, to prolong the pleasure. After that we chopped limbs, tongue, head, and intestines from her body, which were subsequently thrown to the dogs, this for the expression of our scorn for the Armenian flesh ...”
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Originally posted by Fariz
Armenians were killed because they were armenians, it had nothing to do with religion.
So when you say that you have no homeland in Baku anymore, you have zero simpathy from me.Blame your own people for your personal problems.
I was 11 you peace of crap.
My name is Alex Atalian,cristian or not i'm still armenian and 'couse of people like you i'm scared to go back.
Azeris left azerbayjan?
Smart people did,Azeris,russians,armenians.
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man wtf happened to this thread lol
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Originally posted by Raider179
man wtf happened to this thread lol
New guy who didn't know when to shut the **** up.
Wolf
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Originally posted by Wolfala
New guy who didn't know when to shut the **** up.
Wolf
I'll ask you next time.
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20 + posts ago, at the top of this page...
...and this thread really needs to die. - wolf
Originally posted by ATA
Oh yes, i'm done.
What other posts didn't you mean?
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Originally posted by Fariz
Bull****. And you know it is a bull**** as well........
Unpolite not to answer.........
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Say about what? Brutality?
Should be pretty clear what I have to say about it.
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Originally posted by ATA
I was 11 you peace of crap.
My name is Alex Atalian,cristian or not i'm still armenian and 'couse of people like you i'm scared to go back.
Azeris left azerbayjan?
Smart people did,Azeris,russians,armenians.
No, I say about Azeries, who are refuges on their own land. Who can't go home because you guys ocupy 25% of the country, and that including lot of territory outside Nagorny Karabakh which you initially clamed.
What you put above another great example of nationalistic bs propoganda crap. I can dig MBs of it from the other side, saying things opposite to what yours say. But what for? To prove that history can be twisted any way which people want? Thanks god, I have my own eyes and ears, and I judge things my my own experience.
My family had and has a lot of friends among the armenians. That was a nature of Baku, no one even asked what nationality you are, because no one cared. During the war and clensings many Azeri families helped Armenians to run away, gave them shelter and provided with what they needed.
My utmost believe is that civilians shall not be under threat, and woman and children shall not die because of some nationalistic brainwashed idiots.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So I proved your point against use of nuclerar weapons to end WW2 by stating that they saved many lives on both sides?
You are an odd fellow indeed...
I think he's much of things but I'm pretty sure he's not a Odd Fellow...
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Well as I recall the regiment retreated with only 20% of it's manpower left so it was quite a significant event. It was damn near abolished..
You would normally think the event history would at least mention something like that.
Must be Guards Cavalry Regiment, at the battle of Austerlitz, 1805. Their suicide attack saved the remnants of Russian/Austiran army... Only 18 (eighteen) men left from the whole regiment.
Strange that this glorious fight was unmentioned. IIRC it was their first fight ever.
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Originally posted by Fariz
My utmost believe is that civilians shall not be under threat, and woman and children shall not die because of some nationalistic brainwashed idiots.
True.
My apologies
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Fariz, ATA, I think that all the bad things between Armenians and Azeri people ave to be solved peacefully.
One thing makes me wonder - what inspired the conflict in late-80s? Evil Communist Empire? Frankly speaking I doubt it.
Gorby is responsible for escalation of conflict, but I suspect that the problems were provoked by forces interested in breaking USSR apart :(
Just one question, what do you think, was it good or bad that USSR broke into independant republics? I'll appreciate any answer.
BTW, I was really surprised when someone (sorry forgot his nickname) blamed Russia for genocide of Armenians in 1915, because Russians "didn't help their Christian brothers". I am really glad to see that Russian Empire is seen as some kind of allmighty power, but sorry, it wasn't so :(
Peace!
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Originally posted by Boroda
One thing makes me wonder - what inspired the conflict in late-80s? Evil Communist Empire? Frankly speaking I doubt it.
Gorby is responsible for escalation of conflict, but I suspect that the problems were provoked by forces interested in breaking USSR apart :(
Just one question, what do you think, was it good or bad that USSR broke into independant republics? I'll appreciate any answer.
BTW, I was really surprised when someone (sorry forgot his nickname) blamed Russia for genocide of Armenians in 1915, because Russians "didn't help their Christian brothers". I am really glad to see that Russian Empire is seen as some kind of allmighty power, but sorry, it wasn't so :(
Peace!
Who started conflict?
Idiots will shi@ where they eat.
Somebody made a lotta money,somebody from top i guess started it.
Same in chechnia,i've seen russians unloading one side of suply train and chechnians another.
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I'll better say - "national elites" crazy for power. Russian brass-hats were no better then others - I insist on it.
As for Russia supporting Chechens - Yeltsin's gang thought they'll use Chechen gangs as a "sword of Damocles" over Caucasus, they fought on Abkhazian side in a war with Georgia, but - you rip what you sow, and controlling that prehistoric tribes armed by Russia was impossible :(
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Квака-задавака (Kvaka-zadavaka) AKA Toad the Strutter:
(http://www.animator.ru/film_img/uln_3865.jpg)
(http://www.myltik.ru/db/rus/k/kvaka_zadavaka_001.jpg)
(http://www.myltik.ru/db/rus/k/kvaka_zadavaka_002.jpg)
(http://www.myltik.ru/db/rus/k/kvaka_zadavaka_003.jpg)
I really enjoyed that cartoon when I was a kid :) Loved the song. "А мнее любооое море по колено! А мнеее любыые горы по плечо!" ;)
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Toad posted:
Such an event occurred July 1, 1960, when an RB-47H from the 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing was on a standard electronic reconnaissance mission over the Barents Sea, probing the Soviet radar system. On board was the standard three-man B-47 crew plus three electronic warfare officers.
The RB-47 was outside of Soviet airspace when cannon fire from a MiG-19 interceptor smashed into its wing and engines, sending it into a flat spin. The crew ejected, but the only survivors were the copilot, 1st Lt. Freeman Bruce Olmstead, and navigator, 1st Lt. John McKone. They were captured, incarcerated in the Lubyanka prison in Moscow, and released after being confined for several months.
So, you say they were shot down "outside Soviet airspace", over the Bartnts Sea.
How long did it take Soviet side to rescue them? Do you know how long can a man survive in Barents Sea? Maybe the answer is simply and they were shot down over Soviet land?...
Later your masters took special measures against such accidents. Gary Powers, shot down in his U-2 recon plane, survived only because he didn't use an ejection seat: there was an explosive charge attached to ejection handle...
US recon planes violated Soviet airspace every week during Cold War. American aerial pirates even attacked Soviet ground objects, like in 1950 they attacked Sukhaya Rechka airfield near Vladivostok, in weather conditions that made a navigation error impossible.
Can you imagine Soviet planes deliberately bombing American military airfield?..
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We had bomber flights that penetrated the Soviet Union under Operation Norwood specifically meant to seek out weaknesses in the airdefensive radar network. Unfortunately we lost some good men as they were pretty much defenseless once caught. This was during the Eisenhower administration. IIRC
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Well, the Taliban Simply defeated Russia. Russia gave up because of the money it costed and the losses it had. Russia wasn't gaining anything in Afghanistan. Besides, we were helping the Taliban at the time so Russia had no chance. I would also like to know, If Russia is so great and their technology is so good, what happened to all the USSR's submarines in the past? Like Kursk, and the many other ships that are now lying at the bottom o the sea due to countless errors. Russia soesn't overly check their equiipment before use like to US does. Our tech is reliable. How about Russia? Oh and might I add. Does Russia still have many "Ass-tronauts" i mean Astronauts floating around in Space? Or does Russia deny all that too? Just wandering.
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Oh and if I can find the pic i saw on the net not long ago. I will post it. it's a photo taken of a Russian tank with soldiers on it laughing while dragging a chechen down the street by a rope tied to the tank. oh but Russia isn't cruel at all.
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Originally posted by AirWцlf
Oh and if I can find the pic i saw on the net not long ago. I will post it. it's a photo taken of a Russian tank with soldiers on it laughing while dragging a chechen down the street by a rope tied to the tank. oh but Russia isn't cruel at all.
The difference is that Federal troops drag dead terrorists this way, while Chechens do it to people who are still alive. This was a shoking film here too... But I can understand that soldiers. No funeral honours for terrorists.
One of their "field commanders" was nicknamed "Tractorist". For tearing people in two with a tractor.
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Originally posted by Toad
Even the Afghans had a choice of more than one candidate and more than one party.
Wow! Toad, looks like you never was in Afghanistan if you are talking such stupid things. Sorry for so sharp words. I'll spend few minutes to educate you about Afghanistan elections.
First of all: There is no central goverment. It's because all country is divided by regions, in each one there is a leader. The leadership is based on nationality. There are uzbeks, tadjiks, pushtu and others. In each region, there are clans based on nationality.
Second: Nobody and never will vote for a leader from another nation. But you understand, that president can be only one. So, all these "elections" is only a joke. Hamid Karzay is a president only for people of his nation. All others are his enemy and vice versa.
Third: Stabilising factor. Years ago the Soviet Army and Nadjibulla were this factor. This was a force wich divided all country into two parts. Years before that, the King was this factor. Now, Thaliban, US (via Pakistan), USSR (via itself), years of war annihilated this factor. They do not need "free elections". These elections will drive to a new war. They need new stabilising factor. And be patient, US Army will not be that factor. Because the hundreds years of history had shown, that there is no army wich can win the Afghanian war. There is no one.
I knew only one man, who could be that union force. The Pandsher Lion. Ahmad Shah Masud. But he is dead.
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Originally posted by Boroda
So, you say they were shot down "outside Soviet airspace", over the Bartnts Sea.
How long did it take Soviet side to rescue them? Do you know how long can a man survive in Barents Sea? Maybe the answer is simply and they were shot down over Soviet land?...
Yes, outside Soviet airspace. The ICAO rules then and now are 12 miles offshore.
RB/RC tracks were planned a minimum of 20 miles offshore in my time. It was the same IIRC for Olmstead.
With the gear they had to wear about 30-40 minutes if in the ocean.
If in a raft, far, far longer.
They were not shot down over land. There was then and is now tracking procedures/information available.
McKone said they were picked up almost right away by a destroyer. IIRC, he said he thought it was a planned shootdown and the MiGs waited until they were over a naval group doing maneuvers.
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No disrespect to anyone,what was the deal with the guy who landed on Red plaza in the midle of Moskow,how come he didnt get shot down?
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Originally posted by Toad
Yes, outside Soviet airspace. The ICAO rules then and now are 12 miles offshore.
RB/RC tracks were planned a minimum of 20 miles offshore in my time. It was the same IIRC for Olmstead.
With the gear they had to wear about 30-40 minutes if in the ocean.
If in a raft, far, far longer.
They were not shot down over land. There was then and is now tracking procedures/information available.
McKone said they were picked up almost right away by a destroyer. IIRC, he said he thought it was a planned shootdown and the MiGs waited until they were over a naval group doing maneuvers.
Toad, every PVO pilot of the Cold war era that I know or read books by them - they all say one thing. RB-47s routinely violated Soviet airspace, were intercepted by MiGs, and MiG pilots almost never got permission to open fire. The chain of command was too long, so during the flight with gunnery solution ready (10-15 minutes) they couldn't get a permission from Defence Minister or even Politburo.
Your aquaintance was not so lucky.
Someone has to pay. Sorry for that people anyway. I understand that they had their orders. Just as a MiG pilot, who finally got a permission to fire at the enemy that he have seen many times unable to do anything w/o direct orders to destroy it.
Denying the fact that US recon planes violated Soviet airspace regularly is silly.
Again we come to a simple answer to a question of who was the aggressor.
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Originally posted by ATA
No disrespect to anyone,what was the deal with the guy who landed on Red plaza in the midle of Moskow,how come he didnt get shot down?
Rust's landing on Red Square resulted in great purges in Soviet military command. many people lost their positions, including defence minister Sokolov and PVO (Air-defence) commander Koldunov (BTW top Yak ace in WWII, 44 personal victories IIRC).
Rust's Cessna was followed by PVO network, Soviet interceptors watched him but again - didn't get a permission to open fire.
There is a version that it was Gorbachev's provocation to change top military commanders and replace them with "trusted comrades". :mad:
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Wow Estel, I did not know that the soviet army was a stabalizing factor of the Afghan government.
But now that I think about it, a lot of the neighbors of the USSR had their governments stabalized by the soviet army.
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Originally posted by Suave
Wow Estel, I did not know that the soviet army was a stabalizing factor of the Afghan government.
But now that I think about it, a lot of the neighbors of the USSR had their governments stabalized by the soviet army.
Hmm.
Pretty obvious way of thinking IMHO: what happened to Afghanistan after Soviet Army left?
Western logics is even stranger then woman's logics. Common sence as a completely new, unknown concept.
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Are you implying that I said it wasn't logical to expect tyrannical stalinism imposed by military force to be a stabalizing factor in the victim state ?
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Originally posted by Suave
Are you implying that I said it wasn't logical to expect tyrannical stalinism imposed by military force to be a stabalizing factor in the victim state ?
Complete misunderstanding again.
Go check something about King's regime in Afghanistan. Especially why there was no such thing as "blood revenge" there.
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What a load of ........ stuff.
Do this for me. Compare the number of Soviet recon aircraft shot down by the US during the Cold War with the number of US recon aircraft shot down by the Soviets during the Cold War.
Oh.. wait... ours always violated your airspace but yours never violated ours.
:rofl
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Boroda, I don't know if you can get CNN or if you can get a delayed transmission but an incident similar to what we're discussing will be discussed on TV tonight.
There is a program on CNN tonight (Friday Feb 11th) at 10 Eastern, 9 PM Central about the RB-29 shootdown June 1952 off-shore from Vladivostock. Includes some new material based on Russian sources and an interview with Charlotte Busch Mitnik, the sister of aircraft commander Major Samuel Busch.
If you can get it, I'd love to hear your Pravda version. ;)
My CNN listing isn't showing this as the program though ;(
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http://www.warlib.ru/index.php?id=000032
Keep waving stars and stripes.
American planes invaded Soviet airspace as far as Novgorod-Smolensk-Kiev in June 1954. That three RB-45s were suspected of carrying nuclear weapons.
The very fact that we are talking now is a reflection of good will of Soviet side.
Our cause was right.
252 Amerian airmen were shot down during recon missions in Soviet airspace in 1950-70. 24 killed, 90 stayed alive, 136 are missing in action. Toad, you were nothing but a disposable material for your command.
Unfortunately we don't have CNN here since maybe 1995. Will they repeat this show? Is there some way to know when it will be repeated? I can ask firends to record it for me from sattelite.
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Let's say your historical record of all those incidents doesn't match ours.
Unfortunately, neither does the wreckage found in international waters from some of your shootdowns.
As far as the CNN show, they didn't broadcast on that subject. It was just wrong info apparently I got from a friend who also flew Recon.
The idea that every aircraft shot down was over your territory or territorial waters is more denial on your part.
Some were.. like Powers in the U2. Most were not.
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Toad, technically KAL-007 (if it was a 747 not an RC-135) was shot down over Soviet island of Moneron. A tiny rock in the sea. Shot down after flying several thousand km over Soviet land. The wreck felt down in international waters.
I insist that most of the invading planes were shot down in Soviet airspace. Understanding Soviet military makes it obvious that ordering an attack against an enemy plane in international airspace was impossible.
BTW, as far as I can read between the lines - above you already admitted that you have crossed Soviet border on your recon missions... I am happy that you were lucky and our command didn't have the guts to shoot your plane down.
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About Stalin he was an big Ahole.
But without him its questionable the russians won the war.
It was fire against fire (hitler vs Stalin)
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Originally posted by AirWцlf
Well, the Taliban Simply defeated Russia. Russia gave up because of the money it costed and the losses it had. Russia wasn't gaining anything in Afghanistan. Besides, we were helping the Taliban at the time so Russia had no chance. I would also like to know, If Russia is so great and their technology is so good, what happened to all the USSR's submarines in the past? Like Kursk, and the many other ships that are now lying at the bottom o the sea due to countless errors. Russia soesn't overly check their equiipment before use like to US does. Our tech is reliable. How about Russia? Oh and might I add. Does Russia still have many "Ass-tronauts" i mean Astronauts floating around in Space? Or does Russia deny all that too? Just wandering.
The word is 'cosmonaut' in Russian.
The word "ass-tronaut" was originally reserved for the Americans. :D
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Originally posted by AirWцlf
Oh and if I can find the pic i saw on the net not long ago. I will post it. it's a photo taken of a Russian tank with soldiers on it laughing while dragging a chechen down the street by a rope tied to the tank. oh but Russia isn't cruel at all.
Was that the body of the dead terrorist or was he still alive ?
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"Our tech is reliable."
Yes it is,m16 is the prove of it.
5 minutes of shooting,2 hours of cleaning.
Will you ever stop separating people?Nobodys perfect.
We are all bleed red.
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Before anyone gets upset this is just a funny anecdote:
When Nasa developed it's space program, one of the biggest problems was how to make a ball-point pen that would work in microgravity.
After months and months of research and millions of dollars spent the team came out with the super pen. You could shake it twisti it, hold it upside down or sink it to water and it still worked. Awesome.
When Nasa proudly presented thier invention to the russians, they asked what do YOU use?
The russians chuckled.. We dear comerade, use the pencil.
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Originally posted by genozaur
The word is 'cosmonaut' in Russian.
The word "ass-tronaut" was originally reserved for the Americans. :D
Oh, how could I miss this gem of wisdom that you answer to? ;)
An American saying "Does Russia still have many "Ass-tronauts" i mean Astronauts floating around in Space?" is pathetic.
It seems to me that Ametricans don't have manned space flight now. They only have one guy in orbit with a Russian cosmonaut and in Russian space station, who got there on a Russian spaceship.
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Sorry for having another advantage over you, Grun.
ah jo he
denk je nu echt dat dat zo speciaal is he
mooie communist
liever dood als rood
:)
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<---- painting face.
<----- slipping into the water.
soon i will assasinate this thread.
THE HORROR!
(cue jungle drums)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Oh, how could I miss this gem of wisdom that you answer to? ;)
An American saying "Does Russia still have many "Ass-tronauts" i mean Astronauts floating around in Space?" is pathetic.
It seems to me that Ametricans don't have manned space flight now. They only have one guy in orbit with a Russian cosmonaut and in Russian space station, who got there on a Russian spaceship.
1) shuttle program begins reflights in may
2)Better check on where the cash came from to pay for the ISS before you start calling it Russian.Those are our dollars, we "loaned" you to finish building your sections.
3)It's the American's (Chiao) 2nd time on the station. The russian (Sharipov) its his 2nd time out of the atmoshpere.His only space mission was aboard Endeavor.(one of our shuttles)
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First of all I want to say that when Columbia crashed - I was one of the first to bring flowers to American embassy in Msk.
Originally posted by Raider179
1) shuttle program begins reflights in may
I am glad to hear it again. I hope you'll develop a reasonable manned space programm after this rusty remnants of cold-war arms race will finally rest in museums.
Originally posted by Raider179
2)Better check on where the cash came from to pay for the ISS before you start calling it Russian.Those are our dollars, we "loaned" you to finish building your sections.
So far it's a Russian station, we made the key structures, and only Russia has access for ISS for over then 2 years now.
Americans still don't have technology we have. Long-time life-support systems are made only by Russia now, and Americans are quite far from catching with what USSR had in late-70s.
Russian space programm now is a result of natural selection. We have cheapest and most reliable launch vehicles and spaceships, all built on conveyor. R-7 (Soyuz) launch vehicle is perfected ny 50 years of production, other designs are as cheap and reliable. We have all kinds of solution for industrial space exploration.
Originally posted by Raider179
3)It's the American's (Chiao) 2nd time on the station. The russian (Sharipov) its his 2nd time out of the atmoshpere.His only space mission was aboard Endeavor.(one of our shuttles)
I find it ironic that both cosmonauts aboard ISS now are from national minorities. Was it arranged? In USSR having racial or national minorities in "squad of cosmonauts" was never a political problem. Most experieced cosmonaut, Vladimir Dzhanibekov, who docked an uncontrolled Salyut-7 and made an only flight between two space stations is an Uzdek.
Edit: sorry, was mistaken about flight between the flight two space stations. The pilot that made it was Leonid Kizim.
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Originally posted by Boroda
So far it's a Russian station, we made the key structures, and only Russia has access for ISS for over then 2 years now.
Americans still don't have technology we have. Long-time life-support systems are made only by Russia now, and Americans are quite far from catching with what USSR had in late-70s.
MOSCOW (AFP) -- The International Space Station (ISS) will have to be left unmanned unless the United States provides Russia with the money to make extra flights, a Russian space official said Wednesday.
The ISS crew "will probably have to be evacuated to Earth in the second part of the year if our foreign partners do not resolve the issue of financing additional flights to the station," the Russian space agency Rosaviakosmos's spokesman Sergei Gorbunov told ITAR-TASS.
Russian and United States space experts are due to discuss financing further development of the ISS at a meeting on Sunday in The Netherlands.
Gorbunov said the Russian government had "agreed to redistribute allocated budget funds from the second half of the year to the first."
However, this money is insufficient, and the United States "so far are not going to pay for additional launches," he added.
Leaving the station in an unmanned flight would be "dangerous, as the ISS can become uncontrollable," Gorbunov said.
He cited as example a recent malfunction in the heat regulation system of the ISS's US-manufactured portion that could not have been fixed in the absence of the crew.
The United States is relying on Russia to transport crew to and from the ISS orbiting space station because the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) has suspended flights by its space shuttles following the explosion of the Columbia on February 1.
But Russia has said it cannot raise the money to construct the necessary additional Progress cargo ships and manned Soyuz craft.
Moscow has indicated it will need financial aid of at least 47 million dollars (44 million euros) to be able to use the ISS this year.
But NASA is refusing to finance construction of Russian spaceships to offset the freeze on US space shuttles.
Its decision is based on a 2000 US law aimed at retaliating against Russia for allegedly transferring nuclear technology to Iran.
The United States and Russia are the biggest partners in the 16-nation ISS venture.
2003 article...We paid you plenty dont see how you are laying claim to The ISS. Neither you or your components would have gotten to this point if not for US dollars. And lets not each talk about you russians sending up space tourists to the ISS and making a buck off it. I lay no claim to it as a US station. We needed your help and you needed ours.
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IIRC - the last option was that US will stop funding Russian work, and then we'll have to somehow find money to keep it going. Looked like a blackmail from US side, pay for our passengers or we'll abandon the station. So US wanted Russia not only to develop everything, but also to pay for the fun so Americans could enjoy manned space flight for free. I find this approach very practical and rational.
The main problem was that Russia didn't have enough Soyuz and Progress spaceships in production to supply ISS after Shuttle missions stopped.
Anyway - if you'll abandon what you think is a silly toy - we'll take it over. Americans don't have technology to make another space station, and it's a fact.
Isn't it a real capitalism - you give the dough and we do the job? :D Anyway it's better then just working separately. We are good at manned space flight, you are good at making money, so why not get together? ;) You pay for Russian engineering and craftsmanship much less then for same stuff "made in US" (tm) ;), and much more then our space industry gets for same things from our Space Force and civilian research programms. So it goes.
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Originally posted by Boroda
...So US wanted Russia not only to develop everything, but also to pay for the fun so Americans could enjoy manned space flight for free...
For free?
From CNN-
The proposed budget for NASA -- 2.4 percent higher than last year's -- sets aside $9.6 billion for science, aeronautics and exploration, and $6.7 billion for exploration capabilities.
That includes $4.5 billion for the space shuttle program, on track for resuming flights this year for the first time since the 2003 Columbia disaster, and $1.85 billion for the international space station.
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Originally posted by Boroda
IIRC - the last option was that US will stop funding Russian work, and then we'll have to somehow find money to keep it going. Looked like a blackmail from US side, pay for our passengers or we'll abandon the station. So US wanted Russia not only to develop everything, but also to pay for the fun so Americans could enjoy manned space flight for free. I find this approach very practical and rational.
The main problem was that Russia didn't have enough Soyuz and Progress spaceships in production to supply ISS after Shuttle missions stopped.
Anyway - if you'll abandon what you think is a silly toy - we'll take it over. Americans don't have technology to make another space station, and it's a fact.
1) that article says russia will leave it unmanned because they cant afford it not that they will "find the money"
2)blackmail? We funded your space station program.
http://www.house.gov/science/smith_022599.htm
Funding for additional cash payments to Russia. At the end of 1998, NASA transferred an additional $60 million to Russia to help pay for the Service Module and long-lead items for Soyuz and Progress spacecraft
3)That last statement about we dont have the technology...is laughable but when I saw you put it down there as a fact I pissed myself laughing so hard.
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Well actually the russians do hold an advantage in certain long term life support technologies. One example is the water purification system. At least according to a document I saw a couple years back.
The Nasa was complaining they couldn't develop a reliable purification machine even though it was super high-tech. Just not reliable.
The russians had a really robust system that would filter drinkable water from pure urine. It cost a few thousand bucks to manufacture.
And no, I don't just bash Russia when it has credit coming to it - IMO it's just not that often.
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Imagine what USA-RUSSIA could bilt on money lost in IRAQ(8.5 billion in cash i believe).
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Originally posted by ATA
Imagine what USA-RUSSIA could bilt on money lost in IRAQ(8.5 billion in cash i believe).
8.5 billion? It's nothing. This is what the US government is spending each day.