Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SKurj on July 16, 2002, 08:48:51 PM
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Ok... do ya gangbang? or do ya milkrun?
Do ya defend a base? or attack a base?
hey thats the same question...
Do ya try to defend that base.. but OHH NOO they milkin the one next door too...
This map turnin this 'game' into 'work' for me
and no i don't give a sht if u don't agree +) cuz for me this new map with its base/zone layout has become less fun than any other version.
I play the strat game, usually defensive, yeah the most frustrating aspect of the game even pre pizza, but was fun ...
Now with frontline bases numbering in the 10's and 20's its pointless.. and more frustrating than its ever been.
Lotsa guys would rather fight AI than human players.. not sure why they even playing online...
huge map.. everyone zoomed in on their little area, can't see whats going on 'over there'
Sneak in with the osty flatten town, grab an m3 .. solo capture..
ok one guy manages to see whats happening, calls for help, none arrives. By this time town flat and the m3's are a rollin..
Grab a plane?? naa the flaks will eat ya alive, u have no time to setup an egg drop with m3's runnin, so its a suicide run...
Up a panzer? lol yeah right the town is so far from the VH you can forget hittin a moving target unless you are real lucky...
Current pizza base layout sucks
Current field/town model sucks for defence
Where I get my fun from AH... gone..
My subscription going going.... i'll give it a coupla sleeps til i get over my anger
SKurj
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This one I give an 8:D
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Ah shyaddup, ya whiner. :p
SOB
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I agree Skurj
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Yeah, Thats how i feel about the new pizza map, the AK's did a great job & nothing wrong, its a pretty good map, but its just way ahead of AH.
Do like I do, just play in the CT, Great maps, Great plane mach ups, and lot more fun than MA, even when there are no more than 10 ppl in it!
Not liking 1 Map is NO reason to unsubscribe though! there willl be many more great maps to come, kinda dumb to cancel account just because of 1 map imo.
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Heh gee it is a whine!! not sure if its my first but might be!!
The more anti whine posts I get the better.
There's no such thing as bad publicity :p
SKurj
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ok Suggestions:
#1 Maproom moved back to field, town still needs to be flat
(i know this is someone else's suggestion, just don't remember who)
#2 VH placed in or much closer to town
#3 Get rid of this splitting the country for the zones(a country starts as one large mass of zones instead of this strange split)
#4 Smaller map, fewer bases
#5 When we get 1000players... Zone comms to replace(or in addition) chnnl 2
the guys 10 sectors over, fitin for one base don't need to hear calls for help from the whole map
As far as #5 goes... where is the big increase in subscribers with 1.10? 1.09 brought numbers of 500+... not seen much of an increase with 1.10 yet.... (ok perhaps its because its the summer)
I've enjoyed 2 yrs of AH!!
I can't stop myself tryin to defend my team's assests I wish i could then maybe this stuff wouldn't bug me so much...
SKurj
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Paging Dr Rude, your patient is here :D
Just got into playing this map steady since I've had some computer issues. So far, its not a bad map, as much as I'm a wee tired of the SAME map for a few days in a row. Can't seem to find my way around yet but overall, its not as bad as what I thought it would be [based on the "colorful comments" I've seen mentioned here].
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Don't forget to try the manable field ack... I've sprayed and prayed from very long range towards an almost invisibly tiny M3 moving into the town and managed to kill at least one troop.
The other thing to remember- maybe they are milkrunning, but so what if you lose that base, there's many many more. If a concerted effort starts taking a lot of bases in an area, that gets peoples attentions and they start defending.
Plus, it's best not to make hasty decisions. It takes quite awhile for people to adjust to a big change, and the Pizza map is a big change. Everyone is working out how they will play this map. After a month or so, then you can judge how the map suits you (since how other people end up playing to the map defines how you see the map... except, of course, for milkrunners ;) )
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I think with the new buff modeling,AH gameplay is now way ahead of current map strat...Now we need some targets for level bombing like a huge city at each base so a couple of formation buffs can carpet bomb 40% of the town in one pass and the jabo's can pick off the rest.Town size should be in proportion to base size.(eg..large base=large town)
Maybe tweak the capture requirements...
VH Base :8 Troops
Port :10
Small Base :10
Med Base :12
Large Base:14
* 1 perk point for each troop that enters map room.
This might discourage milkrunning as 2 goons would be required for most captures(just like ol' Air Warrior)
I mean,all the meat an' potatoes stuff is there in AH to have some awsome strat...perhaps a little patience and tweaking the menu(map) will satisfy most persons appetites.
Just two suggestions,feel free to add yours.
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Sorry....I made a decision not to pick on anyone who was having difficulty adjusting to a real map where real men fly...wouldn't be very nice imho:)
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For me the game still plays the way it always has. Just way bigger. The way fields trade hands a dozen in 5 minutes keeps me on my toes and makes the whole affair much more global.
I like it but can easily see why others dont. But like skurj, I dont care what anyone else thinks. Its just amusing, thats all.
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fully agreed with skurj :(
Strategy has gone with old maps.
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I've got the cure to your ills. Just come and fly CT
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I'm not playing AH right now; it's just too dang boring. I spent a couple weeks dragging myself into the arena to "give it time", but the end result is always the same....BORING. Sure I can find fights (occasionally), but nowhere near at the rate I could in 1.09.
"a real map where real men fly"
So tell me Rude, "real men" are those who fly around an empty world killing AI acks and stealing undefended bases? 'Cuz that's what this map encourages. Or perhaps you mean those oh-so-brave ("brave brave Sir Robin") souls who fly around with 5 of their friends at 30K cherry-picking halpess targets?
If you LIKE that kind of gameplay, then I suppose you wouldn't see a problem with this new huge map. But I don't like it, and I'm not alone in that regard.
Agree with Skurj 100%
J_A_B
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Go to the CT... there's no milkrunning or gangbanging there. :rolleyes:
Those two things are gonna happen whenever you have too few people for the size of the terrain.
Seems to me HT said he was trying to adress the issue of lower number times. I'm curious as to what that would be.
I have, however, had quite a bit of fun defending fields solo. It works well if you can find a small group of attackers (4 or less) that insist on capturing a rather distant field. I can usually find this situation whenever I am on. After a while they'll either capture it or get frustrated and come back with 50 countrymates... but its a kick till then.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by J_A_B
So tell me Rude, "real men" are those who fly around an empty world killing AI acks and stealing undefended bases
J_A_B
Geez, I don't know how we do it, but we just seem to be able to find whatever type of action we're looking for.
Had a GREAT furball funfest with some 412th guys over the mountains with canyons running all through them. Tops of the canyons at about 12k and the bottoms way lower. Must have went on for more than an hour. Bunches of guys from other squads too.
Sorry you missed it.
:D
It's all out there... if you look for it.
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"It's all out there... if you look for it."
If I'm paying for a GAME, I don't want to have to WORK to find my fun. The fact that you have to look for a fight means there's a big problem IMO.
I want to consistently be able to log in (often at odd hours), find a decent fight, take off and be in the action in a matter of minutes. Ask anyone I fly with how long I'm online at a time; it's rare for me to be on more than an hour or so at a time. I can't bear to sit in front of a computer for longer than that. Flying around empty air, or having to waste time looking for a fight, means I'm not having fun.
I'm glad you're enjoying yourself--really, not sarcastic. But I'm not enjoying myself now :( Even before this new map AH was, for me, BARELY fun--even then there was IMO too much wasted time, too much empty sky. Now it's just not fun at all; flying in AH has IMO become more of a chore than a game.
I'm the patient sort, not threatening to cancel my subscription or anything. Things'll get fixed.
J_A_B
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Maybe for a few hours each day during peak US times. But once the numbers fall below 200 things start to unwind.
I'm getting kind of sick of these replies, because you really are talking BS.
The facts are simple, lets educate you:
- there are a reasonable amount of people who play non-peak times
- once numbers get down towards 100 the map is a complete and utter BORE
- the CT is usually empty
- before 1.10 the numbers could go down to 50 before it started to get boring
- milkrunning is prevelant during these times
- you seem to have to choose between ganging or being ganged during these times
I usually see Skurj on around the same times I am on. So I know exactly what he is talking about. I suggest you try logging on at these times to see what people are talking about. If you think it is a minority that are talking, wake up and smell the coffee, its not. There is a reasonable base of UNHAPPY AH customers. Hell, you want to hear the moaning when I log on.
I don't have the logs, but my observations would be there has been neglible increase in numbers. There has been no improvement in connects either. Warping is still there, disco's are actually worse. All that I can see is that AH is now a bit more 'spread' out for those few peak times, but decidingly boring the rest of the time. Pre 1.09 it was fun most of the time, and a bit fast and furious during the peak times.
HTC can't ignore a significant amount of long time subscribers getting bored for to long, I hope. I used to look forward to an evening of AH, now I often log on, look at the emptiness, logoff and go play WC3 or SOF2. Hell I've even considered giving WW2OL a spin.
Originally posted by Toad
It's all out there... if you look for it.
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Agree with Skurj. I give this post a 8.5 excessive use of periods.
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How can anyone even focus on strat/attack/defense in 1.10 when the lag is so bad anyway? Everyone I talk to says the lag is so bad they have to do ground pounding or not play at all right now...
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I'm sitting on the fence, with one leg each side of it. I appreciate that guys are bored. I know how that feels, and that's one of the reasons I'm not interested in scenarios. I remember back in WB, those scenarios would involve hours of just flying around, maybe followed by 90 seconds of confused action, then rtb and wait for the results to come up on some AAR website the next day. Not my cup of tea at all.
BUT!!!... neither is all that mindless vulching and gangbangery. Geez, I've gone on about this in so many threads...
What I want to know is why people don't want this game to be realistic. They argue that war wasn't fun, therefore the more we go towards REAL, the further we'll go from FUN. But people have taken this so far that they're almost saying that the less real we make it, the more fun we'll have. Taking off and being in the action in a few minutes in a people versus people engagement? It seems that some people want WW2 to have a minimal bearing on this game. If I'm paying for a GAME, I don't want to have to WORK to find my fun.
So why not just play Quake? - I'm serious
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I didn`t like the pizza map since the first day.
Time is giving me reason.
We had a problem with space in the old maps, but this solution is overkill.
A great, great mistake of HTC.
All fun has gone for me, I love the game and I hope the scene will be diferent before my 6 months pre-pay be expired, and I say this sincerely sad.
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punt
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Yep I agree too, pizza map no fun at all anymore.
TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOO
MMMMAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN NNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYY
Front lines!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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You can all defend what HT did. But ...... Money talks!. Lets see what happens when customers begin to cancel accounts. We could even begin again from 1.02 :D. Then every 1.10 defenders will be the whinners!!! :rolleyes:
Remember anti-whinnersssss Money talks ;)
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Feeling the same way. Logged on this morning, saw some bars in the sectors near our northern bases took a 109 up to buff hunt flew 3 sectors around the border heading for what I thought was the most promising con. I get to his sector I see him landing. So I land as well. I notice now another gv milrun going on at our field. I up in Il-2 2 flaks and a panzer nailed the town. M3 almost there, dodging the wall of lead put up by the 2 panziesprayers I kill the m3 and kill him again when he respawns. There was a couple more fun fights there and the attack evaporated. Went south along the canal border 1 long con coming I up in my 109 and its an SBD I roll in bounce him(yawn) and look for more. No other cons, I see a guy upping a bomber to attack the sbds field so I decide to escort him hoping for the extra kill I need plus more. I follow him in. A yak ups followed by a spit at the Bish field. Then as he is bombing all the bish in the world up. About 6 of them, the b17s are swiftly dispatched. I get on the tail of the 1st spit and fill him with 20mm, theres a kill I think as I break off. Nope lag ate all my bullets!!! So I fly back to my field followed by 4 cons.
Up again to defend 39 near HQ 2 ponies milkrunning. I go to engage, they both run, both of them! I auger getting fed up, wondering if I can get a copy of ww2ol here in germany, where they got a real map of EARTH! not martain pizza beatnik symbols.
Yeah I guess some guys idea of fun is floating around at 36k in a pony BnZing afk guys flying a sector to find a fight. Or spraying from a flakpansy, I find it rather boring, I am glad I am taking next month off. Hopefully we'll have new maps by september.
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Originally posted by SKurj
ok Suggestions:
#1 Maproom moved back to field, town still needs to be flat
(i know this is someone else's suggestion, just don't remember who)
#2 VH placed in or much closer to town
deletia
#5 When we get 1000players... Zone comms to replace(or in addition) chnnl 2
the guys 10 sectors over, fitin for one base don't need to hear calls for help from the whole map
#1) Increase the number of buildings and include 3-4 mannable ack (positioned at the top of a building .) That'll slow the milk runs down.
#5) 1000+ players won't help a bit, Skurj ... you know that. They'll just increase the size of the map. Bandwidth dude.
Personally, I would like to see the base capture model enhanced. Make changes to the town so that a base capture requires at least 2-3 buffs collapsing the town. Perhaps a group of osties accompanied by a group of planes would serve as well.
If HTC will add 3-4 mannable and elevated 40mm at the towns and increase the number of buildings, I suspect "milk running" would come to a screeching halt. Ever watch a single plane attack a zone's city? :) It can be done (killing city ack), but it's tough.
curly
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Originally posted by Rude
Sorry....I made a decision not to pick on anyone who was having difficulty adjusting to a real map where real men fly...wouldn't be very nice imho:)
Real men??? This is a game with toy planes. My 12 year old granddaughter has a few kills.
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some are "having fun" but nobody I know. All I see is 20 or so guys hitting an undefended field somewhere. You can go with em and steal the scraps from em or maybe battle a ground vehicle driven by a six year old or.... take off and defend against 20 incoming "strat guys".
Once in a great while the defenders equal the attackers (or close) and there is a good fight but it seems that most avoid good fights like the plague.
rude and toad... I bet your opinion of this map would be a lot different if you had stuck with your "fly P40's for a tour" original idea. The map is ok for lags and p51's or D9's.
comeon... this is getting old.
lazs
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No one named oedipus or oed has flown version 1.10 pretty hard to see what kind of "action" you are refering to.
lazs
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Originally posted by weaselsan
Real men??? This is a game with toy planes. My 12 year old granddaughter has a few kills.
Heheh, well said weaselsan
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I agree skurj, Map is exce.. exc.. Good.... But its not what we need right now. The old maps were perfect, you could always find a fight. My favortie, cause i am not a strat dweeb.. heh :D
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Hey Lazs! What are you doing up so early? You've already mown the lawns for this week ;)
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ya. im kinda turned off with this map. but its not really the map,
its the fact that its designed for 300+ players. So when there
are 300+ players, everything is ok, but when thee are less than
200, its not very fun. Less than 100, i cant even find a decent fite
Lets rotate in some old terrains, or design a new one. need a
little variety.
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The map sure is ugly, but.....
At peak US hours, I've been able to find any kind of fight I want -- big furball, 5v5 field defense, or 1v2 canyon fight defending a V base. Just look for the flashing bases, count the red and green dots, and choose your fight.
Off-peak hours might be different.
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From Skurj:
"#1 Maproom moved back to field, town still needs to be flat
(i know this is someone else's suggestion, just don't remember who)
#2 VH placed in or much closer to town
#3 Get rid of this splitting the country for the zones(a country starts as one large mass of zones instead of this strange split)
#4 Smaller map, fewer bases
#5 When we get 1000players... Zone comms to replace(or in addition) chnnl 2
the guys 10 sectors over, fitin for one base don't need to hear calls for help from the whole map. "
Good suggestions, Skurj. I'd modify them just a tad IMO:
#2 Two VH's, one in town, one in city. Mannable acks in the cities, like AKCurly said, but make them 88mm, capable of doing AA or AT work.
Don't agree with #4, but that is just personal preferences.
#5, no opinion. Have heard some "voices" on country channel that make me think Toonland has gotten wind of AH and has a few subscribers now.......:p
#6 Make all mannable acks AA and AT capable, just like the 5" guns on the fleets. Change the caliber of the guns if needed, but make it where you select your ammo like in the fleet guns, and make the AA shells timed to explode, kinda like the 88's do over the cities and HQ's. I find it nearly impossible to hit an attacking AC with the mannable guns right now, the trajectory of the shells don't match the "gunsight" at all, IMO.
As to the others who think scanning the map to find a fight that suits them is "work".............:rolleyes:
Do what everyone else has to do, zoom in, left click and SHIFT and drag the map to find what you want, or............holler at your buddies and head to the TA or the DA. Then you can furrball without having to do anymore than lift off and go guns hot. All without ever worrying about a fluffer coming over and ruining your fights.
Flame away, the intolerance of people not doing things the way you want them to is STALE........
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The pizza overview was off-putting at first, but its comparatively huge size became irrelevant was a battle site was chosen. I like the vastly increased options for whatever intensity or type of engagement you want.
In the smaller maps it sometimes was pointless to sign on when your side was down for the count. You were swarmed wherever you poked your head up. The pizza usually offers the chance to find whatever odds you want somewhere.
As many point out, the Combat Theater is a terrific alternative. I got tired of the rolling plane set in WarBirds, but sure enjoyed the more limited realistic options last night in the Malta scenario.
In all 1.10 areas it seems you have to fly a little more to engage, but to me that seems more fun and realistic than fighting before you even gain a thousand feet altitude.
In the Main Arena, I find myself adjusting the map options more often to better focus on whatever I'm looking for. At first to find the fights, I turn everything off but the color bars and dots. That shows the hot spots in a hurry.
And hey, it IS fun sometimes to see what you can do by yourself in a jabo to a fringe vehicle field.
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yep... the pizza map is good for the CT.
early war planes that are frustrating to use and fights that approch the boredom of the CT.
oedipus.. bieng slughtered and killing a little of four planes per hour is not considered action packed fun fest in my opinion. you and I differ on what we consider "good fites".
beetle... i was cleaning some handguns. Oh, those are hand held firearms for you brits.
lazs
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Shhh.......halo.......careful, they'll be calling you an AI dweeb if they read that! :rolleyes:
Do what ya want, play the game like you want, fly what you want....others will only try to label ya if you aren't doing what they want or what they like.
Remember, though, it's all good.
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Originally posted by SKurj
Current pizza base layout sucks
Current field/town model sucks for defence
Where I get my fun from AH... gone..
My subscription going going.... i'll give it a coupla sleeps til i get over my anger
SKurj
Skurj,
I would really like to see some official notice from HTC regarding introduction of new maps!! I have not seen any posts in the "News, Announcements and Info" BBS section regarding new map introduction dates. I would ask the question here but I don't think any answer would be valid unless it came from HTC. I plan to start sending one question/day to HTC regarding this map business. I encourage all others to do the same.
I hope you stick around Skurj. Your input is important.
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hitting a moving target is where skill comes in to play:rolleyes:
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This map was very nice in trying to incorporate new factors in to a larger scale, but obviously seem to meet a few problems. This particular layout of a huge map, as people note, is highly favorable for the country who can afford to maintain the overall numbers concentrated in a certain area. To put it simply, the country with larger numbers are virtually unstoppable in this setting.
As we've seen in previous maps, concentrated defense makes it difficult for a country with numbers advantage to simply barge through the defense lines. However, in this map, with three islands each separated into three zones, vehicle bases placed on the edge of the map in a continuous circle, and a water path leading into heart of every island, the size of the front has effectively grown 9~10 times of what it used to be.
It is not the size, or the number of bases that has a problem, but the way they are laid out, IMO. A country with consistently low numbers, (or, a country who cannot afford to maintain large numbers even after prime-time) simply cannot defend when the total length of the front lines are nine to ten times larger than what it was before.
Of the three separate zones, two are almost instantly lost with the start of a new reset, and the players are confined to a single zone, which is logically the only way people can defend something - by reducing the size of the defensive lines. First, people thought it'd take weeks to get a reset. Now, as it is being proven, about a single day is enough to drive a country into a 'reset phase'. It's a quick and faced pace 'blitz' for the numerous, and a nightmare for the underdogs.
Now, the maps of the previous versions, even though they had some flaws, had specific strategic value. There was a 'method' to a given map, despite the flaws being that a certain corner of the map was strategically disadvantaged. In those maps, no matter how large a number you had, there was a 'path' for advancing into a certain country, and this 'path' was recognized by players by empirical experience. There was a logical strategic move - (ie) in Mindanao, the basic strat for the northern country was to defend attacks from west, and advance down the Eastern peninsula to reset the southern country. The southern country knows this too, and they'd set their defenses to protect the peninsula while trying to keep the border lines stable against the Western country. This 'basic strategy' was dictated by many factors including terrain, distance, logistics, and numbers.
Now, the fields are very close together, VHs spawn vehicles 3~5 miles outside the town in all directions, CVs can move everywhere and spew out planes against almost any field. The factors that made up 'strat' are in effect, mostly neutered now. The only thing that dictates the 'strat' is numbers itself, which also means there IS no strat at all.
When numbers were low, people could put up defenses in a concentrated area. The 'border lines' would be sealed. It took real effort to break through this. Thus, strat and tactics were made - diversions, NOE raids, tactical furballs phasing into continuous bomber strikes... Both the attacker and the defender would try and devise various ways to overcome the situation.
Now, there is no other way than to 1) hope your country don't get gang banged, and 2) hope your country has same numbers as the other two. You defend one place, they simply circle around via GVs, CVs, other zones and go for a milk run. It's a bonanza of easy opportunities when you've got a lot of pilots flying for your country; bold enemy defensive in the air? spawn GVs UP THE CANYON within 5 miles of the town and milk run it with zillions of Osties. Enemy defending southern lines? Immigrate to zone 2 and milkrun every base there is.
.......
To make a long rambling story short:
1) The size is good, but layout is a real problem
2) Frontlines being too long is the same as 'no frontlines at all'
(Typical Rook situation: "Hi guys! Where is help needed?" ... "We need help everywhere, mate. Oh crap, there goes another base..")
3) GV spawn is too lenient
4) No difficulty in reaching vital areas of enemy country
("Hey, who wants to storm ZoneX master field? We've got the CV parked there. No defenders too!")
Therefore, what we need is:
1) New layout and designing for the map
(The "all sides equal" concept was very good. What we need to is devise a design that holds the 'equal conditions' and the same time reintroduces the effective 'front' concept that existed before)
2) Reducing size of the frontlines
3) Restricting GV spawns
(How do GVs spawn up a canyon anyway? Promoting ground battles was good, but we need to restrcit GV advance points within a predictable limit)
4) Closing off some 'channels' and 'paths' so people can't just hop to a vital master field or HQ in 'one hop'.
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So tell me Rude, "real men" are those who fly around an empty world killing AI acks and stealing undefended bases? 'Cuz that's what this map encourages. Or perhaps you mean those oh-so-brave ("brave brave Sir Robin") souls who fly around with 5 of their friends at 30K cherry-picking halpess targets?
If you LIKE that kind of gameplay, then I suppose you wouldn't see a problem with this new huge map. But I don't like it, and I'm not alone in that regard.
Well....I would suggest you lighten up a bit.
That post was made in fun...in other words, not meant to be taken seriously.
I do find it interesting that you take a shot at our squad tho....you believing that we fly around at 30k and cherry pick only tells me that you must have a problem with us....the 13th fights in the dirt, not at high alt. In addition, we find ALL sorts of fights...fuballs, 1v1's, 5v5's...all of which are not inherently bad for gameplay. Variety is a good thing.
If your not having fun, then I'm sorry.....I would not like the sim I fly to suddenly become not fun. Still, many are enjoying themselves and as I've said before, if you had paid attention, HTC will make whatever adjustments to correct what you and others feel are problems with gameplay.
Lazs.....
The difference between you and I seems to be, that although I agree with you in some aspects, until the changes are made to the sim which will allow for what your after, I'm going to make some fun of my own in some way until those changes arrive. To simply decide that this sucks and I won't enjoy it until it's what I want it to be can't possibly be productive, unless you feel that sooner or later HT will capitulate and give you what you want.
I want the sim to grow so that everyone can have fun...that alone is in the best interest of everyone involved, however, until that happens, I've made the choice to enjoy myself, irregardless of what I personally might feel would be best for AH.
I've been drivin spits and f6's lately....never done that before, ever.:)
Hope things work out the way you want them to!
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Originally posted by lazs2
rude and toad... I bet your opinion of this map would be a lot different if you had stuck with your "fly P40's for a tour" original idea. The map is ok for lags and p51's or D9's.
lazs
Sorry to disappoint. I still fly the P-40 some; probably half the time I'm on.
I'm just not on as much as I was due to my work sked.
I fly the P-40 when my squadmates aren't up or when they're not in fast stuff like P-51's. However, about our only squad rule is that when someone is up, we all fly together. So if somebody's already up in a much faster aircraft I put off my P-40 fix for a while because I simply can't keep up with later aircraft.
However, I have no trouble finding fights and having fun when I'm out droning around in my Warhawk.
I do so hate to upset everyone, but I seem to have a good time in AH no matter what I fly and no matter when I fly. For this, I am most apologetic. I know you'd all be happier if one more guy was ready to slit his wrist over the dispair caused by the new map. :D
Of course, if I HAD to do something besides fly fighters in AH, that would be a different story. But that's what's great about the game, isn't it? I can loathe GV's, be bored to tears in Buffs and get seasick anytime I try sailing the boats... and I can STILL have a total blast flying fighters in the exact same game where other people are actually ENJOYING doing the things I loathe to do myself.
Go figure. :D
Cyas at the con.
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Lazs!
beetle... i was cleaning some handguns. Oh, those are hand held firearms for you brits.
Oh no. Lazs is getting ready to come and shoot me. Was it something I said? I take it back. Strat sucks, furballing rocks!
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Map is fine! CTD"S and one ping kills only issues that 1.10 has brought to me...never have a problem finding a fight or milk running whatever I feel like that night... The challenge is doing the best you can with the tools you have to work with... Someone is working on new maps they just not finished yet!!
Why dont you guys who hate the map create your own map and submit it, that would be a challenge.. you could be just like the AK's:) Make a map that looks like a hamburger or a Pastrami sandwhich, one part of it could be a dollop of Potato salad or coleslaw...
Time for lunch T0J0
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I hate this map, and I'm not about to worry about stroking the AK's ego's in case their feelings are hurt. If they really want to do something for the community, get rid of the map. It's not ahead of it's time. It's the ugliest thing that's hit my monitor since I last sneezed.
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Kweassa - thanks for your recent post - best post I've read on here in weeks. I am interested in developing a map/terrain that will make most people happy some of the time. I have a few thoughts - can I email them to you?
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"I do find it interesting that you take a shot at our squad tho"
--Rude
Actually I wasn't taking any sort of shot at your squad; I have never run into your squad and have no idea how you fly. I do, however, assume that in order to like the current map you have to be a certain kind of player--a type of player which your response suggests you've been called before.
"So why not just play Quake? - I'm serious"
--Beet1e
I HAVE played Quake at times, as well as Unreal, UT, NFS4, AW, Warcraft 2, AOK/TC, Doom, Q2, Q3A, CS, XvT, TFC, EQ, and geez I can't even remember the rest. Suffice it to say I've played a LOT of multiplayer games over the years. Right now a game called Dungeon Siege is taking up most of my gaming time--AH is just too dang boring.
I have no interest in re-creating WW2. I like aerial combat--compared to FPS or RTS games, there's quite a bit more variety involved in the action of flightsims like AH, without it being overly time-consuming as the RPG's are. I don't give a rats behind about things like "realism" in gameplay setups. All I want is to find decent, good-sized battles to take part in; I want FUN. It's a game--nothing more. And before you say it, yes I've tried Fighter Ace....it's just too stupid IMO, with its air starts and invisible cockpits. ANY game has to have rules (even Quake has rules).
Seriously, why would ANYONE want to re-create WW2? A typical flight in WW2 involved taking off, flying around for a couple hours and landing, with maybe being in combat for 5 minutes of that--or maybe not. Heck, the ETO P-51 guys were flying 7-hour escort missions and frequently missed combat. That's not exactly what I'd call the height of suspense!
J_A_B
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Yep. After two weeks of giving the map time, for the most part, it's not much fun...for me anyway.
So, I downloaded the latest terrain editor and tried to start working on a new map. But, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of docs on how to use the editor. I didn't get very far. I now have a 512 mile square of blue water. Nothing else...just water.
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Well its obvious the number of supporters have dropped for the new map and the gameplay it brings with it. 2 weeks ago this thread would likely have been filled with pro-pizza posts.. wonder what happened....
Anyways, THANK YOU HTC!! for the old maps back in rotation +)
Perhaps the next time pizza rears its head, it will be a revised version...
SKurj
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toad... my point remains that your squad does not find the P40 to be a viable plane in the new map.. You are of course the exception and I am sure that you are having fun. I am having fun myself but would enjoy more options.
The early war planes are frustrating because they are not viable options. It is frustrating that they are available yet useless 90% or more of the time... Their usage and how they do in the MA even in the best hands proves this. The farther the fields are apart and the more spread out the fights the less useful slower early war planes are.
beetle.. cleaning a handgun does not mean that a person is getting ready to shoot some poor misguided brit. Contrary to popular belief... Sometimes..... A person can own guns all his life and never shoot anyone....I am happy that you are on the road to recovery tho so far as the arena is concerned.
lazs
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Originally posted by SKurj
Well its obvious the number of supporters have dropped for the new map and the gameplay it brings with it. 2 weeks ago this thread would likely have been filled with pro-pizza posts.. wonder what happened....
People probably got tired of arguing with you, and chose the easier route-> go fly in the MA.
Next thing you'll know, people will actually take credit for lighting a fire underneath HTC's bellybutton to get the old maps back in rotation....
Take a vacation from complaining, you might enjoy yourself more.
-SW
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Originally posted by SKurj
Well its obvious the number of supporters have dropped for the new map and the gameplay it brings with it. 2 weeks ago this thread would likely have been filled with pro-pizza posts.. wonder what happened....
Anyways, THANK YOU HTC!! for the old maps back in rotation +)
Perhaps the next time pizza rears its head, it will be a revised version...
SKurj
If only HiTech could have held out for a bit longer we might have been rid of some whiners, oh well.
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Originally posted by Load
You can all defend what HT did. But ...... Money talks!. Lets see what happens when customers begin to cancel accounts. We could even begin again from 1.02 :D. Then every 1.10 defenders will be the whinners!!! :rolleyes:
Remember anti-whinnersssss Money talks ;)
You should lead by example ....
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Originally posted by beet1e
I am interested in developing a map/terrain that will make most people happy some of the time. I have a few thoughts - can I email them to you?
Let's all hear your idea. I bet it's a good one. :)
Tomato
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I'm not berating you for wanting what you want. I'm just very surprised that you seek it in Aces High. J_A_B, you said a number of things that have left me quite bewildered. I will quote a few:
- I have no interest in re-creating WW2.
- I don't give a rats behind about things like "realism" in gameplay setups.
- I want FUN. It's a game--nothing more.
- Seriously, why would ANYONE want to re-create WW2?
Perhaps we should remind ourselves that Aces High is a WW2 flight and surface combat simulation. To say that you have no interest in recreating WW2 is like someone who doesn't like eating fish going to a seafood restaurant and being disappointed not to find something he/she likes on the menu. Or someone ordering a salad, but then pointing out that they don't like lettuce.
Aces High is a flight sim, but it is much more. Just because you guys are not interested in the strategy does not alter the fact that many of us want strategy, and that certain strategic elements are in place within AH.
In reviewing the recent spate of pro-furball posts, it seems that many pro-furballers just want to get up there and kill something - provided there's a living, breathing person on the receiving end. If you don't like the time it takes to marshall your forces into position, if you find the distance between airfields too tedious, then I must ask the question again: Why are you here? Why burden yourselves with all this WW2 strat and logistics nonsense when you could get everything you want by playing Quake? You're not interested in WW2. So what difference does it make whether what you're piloting is a 109 or a Spitfire or an inter-galactical battle cruiser? All you want to do is to shoot something.
A pattern is emerging from the pro-furball camp. The strat guys are willing to take on a new challenge, and had their share of lumps in the last release. You don't see the strat guys bellyaching about number of fields/distance between them etc. But if the furball guys don't get an arena that's just how they need it so they can game the game and get the results they want, then they're crying in their beer.
Lazs! In another post (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=543733) you said I am stating that I to could find lots of "fights" if I was willing to get slaughtered. Even at the worst odds I could manage to kill something before I died. That is not the kind of fight I enjoy.
(I took the liberty of correcting the one punctuation and two spelling errors, and improper pluralisation)
Well, that pretty much says it all. You don't like the arena because it's not what you're used to. Your k/d might sink to 1-1 (worst case scenario), were you to go looking for a fight in here. You're pretty much admitting that you used the setup of the 1.09 maps and terrains as a crutch, to provide yourself with preferential logistics to create a situation in which you could win. And do you know what? That's not far off how I would define the concept of Gaming the Game.
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roflmao
cancelling accounts because they don't like the map ??
lol and go where ?
maps come and go. Everyone whines about wanting new stuff but are impatient as hell when it doesn't work out right away.
you whiners ever try 'fixing' the problem yourselves ?
and if you leave AH ... where ya' gonna' go that's better ?
nowhere
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hehehe +) post my first whine, and am labelled for life as a complainer (i've complained abit about the latest version of AH (bombers, map) and thats it...)
laff...
2 yrs in AH the first time i really have issues too... well i have lotsa them in rl too but thats another story +)
Oops i forgot i complained about the price once too.. and within a week it dropped...
SKurj
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Originally posted by lazs2
toad... my point remains that your squad does not find the P40 to be a viable plane in the new map..
The early war planes are frustrating because they are not viable options.
lazs
Well, allow me to clarify a bit. Rude floated the idea of us all going P-40 long before the release. We chatted it over and despite misgivings on the part of much of the group it was decided we'd give it a try once the release came out. Emphasis here being that there was a large amount of hesitation about going to the P-40 long before the release.
After the release, we all flew it a while. Those that had misgivings prior to the actual experiment were indeed less than impressed, primarily due to the lack of overall speed and climbing ability compared to the Mustang.
Some didn't really mind and simply viewed it as another adjustment to make. I think I perhaps fit that category.
Bottom line is that those that were not that enthusiastic about switching OUT of the P-51 were the MOST enthusiastic about switching OUT of the P-40 and BACK into the P-51.
I don't really think the map had much to do with that.
I think it was simply too much of an adjustment to expect, given all the things that 1.10 brought to the table in terms of new AH experiences and opportunities.
And, as far as "viability" of the early planes, I personally don't expect to find them anymore viable in the old maps that are re-entering the rotation.
As I view it, the basic problem with the early war planeset is, given the "normal" situation of multi v multi furballs, your only option is to fight to the last bullet and then die. (Which doesn't bother me either. But I realize that makes a difference for some.)
You sure aren't running away when you are out of gas or ammo in a mixed planeset multli furball; well, unless they let you go.
There's simply too many aircraft than can easily run you down. Given that the guy chasing you has half a brain and can shoot, he can use his better climb and speed capabilities to kill you reasonably quickly.
Again, "new" map or old ones, I don't think it is the characteristics of the map that cause early war planes to be less than "viable".
I think it is the way the arena is set up; allowing 1945 aircraft to mix it up with 1939 aircraft. Perk system doesn't really deal with the problem, IMO... not that I'm a fan of the perk system either! The entire perk system doesn't alter my aircraft choices or the way I play in the arena one bit. It never has. Just me, I guess.
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Beet1e:
You will note that AH is not currently a WW2 game. It uses WW2 equipment but that's all. There was no Knight, Rook, or Bishop country in WW2 and they definetely weren't having a war with each other. In addition, Bf-109's and Spitfires and Zekes didn't all fly for each country's airforces as they do in AH. AH is not a WW2 game and I'd hate to see it become one. I've got nothing against the people who DO want a WW2 game, but isn't there room for both types of gameplay (hint: multiple arenas)?
You ask me why I'm in AH if I don't want to re-live WW2. My answer is AH isn't a WW2 game right now. I ask you (in jest)--If you want to re-live WW2, why not play THE dedicated WW2 game, WW2OL?
Also, I'm not an "anti-strat" guy. One of my favorite types of missions, back in AirWarrior, was escorting strikes on the enemy aircraft factory. The reason I don't do much strat-wise in AH is strat in AH is very, very weak. Very few of the strategic targets have any noticable impact on the battle, hence there's no reason to strike them. Strat in AH usually boils down to little more than "landgrabbing", which I DO NOT have an interest in. As a result, most of my flights tend to be lone fighter sweep missions. However, saying I am "non-strat" just because I don't take bases isn't quite accurate. I suppose, if ya really wanted to nitpick, you could call me a "non-tactical" player :D
I also noticed that the old maps are back in rotation now. HTC cares about its customers--that's why you don't see me cancelling my account in a huff when something I don't like comes up; I know HTC will fix it :)
J_A_B
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Posted this under another thread but it shoulda gone here.
_____________________________ _____________________
I like clouds, at least with the other maps rotating in clouds will come back during those particular maps ... I hope ... ya? clouds will be there?
Pizza map is okay but there are a lot of aspects I do not like.
Back door field hopping/grabbing is to easy.
Too many bases to cover with too few people most the time.
Some areas base altitude was kinda a bummer (launching at 8.5k).
The map itself ... a pizza ... or a peace sign. Can't really feel "immersed" when I look at the map personally. Such a perfect lil symetrical world.
No clouds
Terrain poorly blends (looking into the distance I see and exact square of ... sand).
Back to the map not giving that immersed feeling, lets talk water. Sueze canals anyone? sheesh. Moats anyone?
...
... But ... there are aspects I like about the map.
Canyons are cool.
CVs can basically reach all over, be in strange places.
Ground vehicle coverage and the vehicles access to general terrain all over is nice.
The single mountain between certain airfields is a fun "point of contention".
But the ndisles, baltic, mandolin ... I like those maps as well with many similar and many different pros and cons.
All in all, good to see them back, better to have map rotations than no rotation imho.
Guess I'm bored. Typed way more than I anticipated
Cheerios,
Quix
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Originally posted by SKurj
hehehe +) post my first whine, and am labelled for life as a complainer (i've complained abit about the latest version of AH (bombers, map) and thats it...)
Nah, no one will even remember tomorrow.
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SKurj, is THIS why you've been mucking about so in the tech support forum? TG they added the old maps;)
BTW, the manable acks are very good anti-tank guns out to about 3.5 to 4k. Trust me.
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J_A_B,
I agree with everything you say. What I should have said is the AH is a flight sim with a WW2 veneer. I don't want to relive WW2 either - those 7 hour missions we discussed earlier - and not wanting to relive WW2 in that way is why I don't much care for scenarios.
I take your point about the weakness of AH strat targets. "Strategy" is a fairly generic term, and what I meant by strategy in some recent raids was to keep the enemy occupied in one location while we grab one of his bases that we know he can't defend. The only game-strat element here is that things like vehicle hangars will stay down for 15 minutes, the acks for a little longer. I use the stopwatch function on my wristwatch to mark the time when the first target goes down, and can then advise my little helpers how much time they have left to get goon or M3 to capture. HTC cares about its customers--that's why you don't see me cancelling my account in a huff when something I don't like comes up; I know HTC will fix it
Yep, I've always agreed with that too.
OK, so the old maps are back. One thing I learned about the player base with the pizza map is that furballs are very important to some. I remember when I used to furball (about four years ago) but I found I wanted to move on to better things. I want to be able to do base capture - without running up against a bunch of 109G10s waiting for me at 25K as I lumber along below with my 2x1000# bombs etc. I don't want to have to use the Mission Editor in order to organise a gangbang to win the base purely through numerical supremacy.
We have to find a middle way, and one in which the fighter jocks can do their thing, while those who want to capture fields by strategic mobilisation of their forces can do that if they wish. If I may draw upon my WB experience for a moment, about 2½ years ago I had an excellent tour of duty. I think I flew the F6F exclusively, as soon as the RPS enabled it. I flew it on jabo missions only, and did not seek furballs, and would get involved in a furball only to save my own base from being captured. In WB, you could fly low level without being seen, and if you could then bomb the radar at the target field, you could get to work on the rest of the field unseen. You would have to organise a ju52 troop plane to be in position for the field capture - I flew a bunch of those missions myself. During that tour, I got 428 kills and 175 deaths (mainly from acks, being blown up by own bomb, or being jumped by an enemy lying in wait overhead). The point being that all these kills were incidental to the overall mission. I did not do a -lazs- and go out looking for kills for their own sake to pad my score.
I hope that the reintroduction of the old maps does not mean we will go back to the old AH formula of furballs everywhere, gangbangs, meaningless strat, and the jabo guys facing an impossible task owing to the bardar and flashing map. Those features are OK if the bases are well spaced, but when you're attacking a base that turns out to be only a few minutes flight from the next one, any jabo mission ends up being a suicide flight because of the LA7 swarm that ups from that nearest base and comes to kill you.
The pizza map was good for me because it allowed me to do some field captures without a Fariz-style mission in which 40 tiffies, 15 LANCs, 25 B17s, P38s and Spits are called for.
I spoke out (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52208) about the Mission Editor and bardar a few weeks ago. I was disappointed (but not surprised) not to get a response from HTC about it. They have listened to the guys who don't like pizza. Now, I hope they'll listen to the guys who don't like furballs and gangbangs.
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#1) I did that in tunisia, I used 2 towns with 1 maproom to make it harder to capture at key fields.
You can add as many mannable acks as you want at a field.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by AKcurly
#1) Increase the number of buildings and include 3-4 mannable ack (positioned at the top of a building .) That'll slow the milk runs down.
#5) 1000+ players won't help a bit, Skurj ... you know that. They'll just increase the size of the map. Bandwidth dude.
Personally, I would like to see the base capture model enhanced. Make changes to the town so that a base capture requires at least 2-3 buffs collapsing the town. Perhaps a group of osties accompanied by a group of planes would serve as well.
If HTC will add 3-4 mannable and elevated 40mm at the towns and increase the number of buildings, I suspect "milk running" would come to a screeching halt. Ever watch a single plane attack a zone's city? :) It can be done (killing city ack), but it's tough.
curly
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
roflmao
cancelling accounts because they don't like the map ??
lol and go where ?
maps come and go. Everyone whines about wanting new stuff but are impatient as hell when it doesn't work out right away.
you whiners ever try 'fixing' the problem yourselves ?
and if you leave AH ... where ya' gonna' go that's better ?
nowhere
Er, if the map causes your enjoyment of the game to go into the toilet, and as a result you don't log in anymore, why would you keep an account going? If you want to give money away there's more worthy charities out there than HTC, no?
...and if you pay me to do it, then sure, I'll look at fixing stuff. Otherwise there's not a snowflakes chance in hell that I'm going to pay for something and at the same time be fixing it too.
Oh, and you don't really need to "go" anywhere. There's an entire planet out there with non-computer generated people, and animals, and plants and stuff. Its really cool getting out amongst them too. Give it a try sometime.
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beetle... correct my spelling etc. if it makes you happyu but..... you have completely misunderstood and misinterpreted my statement. The smaller arenas are not a crutch unless you consider finding fights that are of equal numbers a "crutch" the pizza map is the real crutch.. the talentless can milkrun with impunity. the cowardly can hide behind "organization". Gangbanging is the real word for srtat and organization in the pizza map. I don't care about my K/D much but I care about good fights...melees if you will. gangbanging (missuns) is not fun... I don't like fighting for scraps or fighting ground vehicles. Getting slaughtered (base defense agains said cowardly strat potatos) is not fun.
And in defense of jab (although he is doing fine himself).... Re-creating WWII and recreating WWII aircraft are two different things. The former is doomed to boredom and inaction and lopsidedness (we all read the book). The latter is an exercise in "what if" that even the real pilots of WWII practised (dogfiting against each other) and is endless in it's variety. After a few years a lot of players become so insecure and vain that they "move on" from furballs tho. They imagine that they have some great talent that is not being showcased by being beaten by the occassional newbie.
toad...I guess we are saying the same thing. the map is for fast late planes and milkrunners.
lazs
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am stating that I to could find lots of "fights" if I was willing to get slaughtered. Even at the worst odds I could manage to kill something before I died. That is not the kind of fight I enjoy.
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(I took the liberty of correcting the one punctuation and two spelling errors, and improper pluralisation)
Well, that pretty much says it all. You don't like the arena because it's not what you're used to. Your k/d might sink to 1-1 (worst case scenario), were you to go looking for a fight in here. You're pretty much admitting that you used the setup of the 1.09 maps and terrains as a crutch, to provide yourself with preferential logistics to create a situation in which you could win. And do you know what? That's not far off how I would define the concept of Gaming the Game.
__________________
Warbirds handle was SCRMBL
You will NEVER see me in a N1K."
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Ahhh....feel the love.
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Lazs,
The only thing that's more full of toejam than a Christmas turkey is two Christmas turkeys, and you. What's all this crap about milkrunning undefended bases? If the bases were undefended, it's only because the opposition cannot read a map. Good Grief, there are enough clues that a base is being attacked. For crying out loud, you have - dots on the radar, showing inbound enemy.
- Bardar.
- Yankee's dulcet tones - Base under attack.
- You even have that warning siren.
- You also have the text buffer, through which an observer at the field can give a sitrep.
- voice comms.
But this, it seems, is not enough. You want furballs, and you want them to be on your terms. You want a situation that is conducive to furballing but not to field captures. And you'll stop at nothing to get it.
As for not wanting to recreate WW2, fair enough. But your "what if" scenario is purely speculative, because by the time we get to that scenario, the parameters are so far skewed in your favour that the results are meaningless.
I mentioned that F6F tod I flew in WB a few years ago. WB got ruined by the WW2A. There was no point in attempting field capture if you were on the side of the underdog (late war Axis). So I switched to moonlighting with the Scanian Griffins, flying 190s in hunting sorties. Not gangbangs, but hunts. I would finish a Tod with a k/d better than 5/1 with those guys, and streaks in the 20s- I think even you would be proud of that. And I did that because the competitive jabo raids died with the introduction of the WW2A (with idiotic RPS and sideswitching). After a few years a lot of players become so insecure and vain that they "move on" from furballs tho. They imagine that they have some great talent that is not being showcased by being beaten by the occassional newbie.
Gawd, that third Christmas turkey just walked in. Lazs, I hope your firearms are not loaded when you write this crap. I worry for your safety. Besides, it's a moot point. I began WB as a furballer just like you - in fact WITH you, then went to jabo, then to bombers, and then to that 190 stuff with the Griffins.
Lazs, earlier you very kindly explained to me what a handgun is, and being a naive Brit, that was much appreciated. Now I need you to do something else for me. The maps have been changed back to the furball/gangbang versions for your benefit. Could you please tell me what a "Quarter" is? When I came to play the new Lazs oriented version of AH, a popup window appeared which said "Please insert Quarter in slot". :rolleyes:
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DON'T Let Skurj get anywhere around your six when he is flying that P40 he will kill your arse, quick and often. SALUTE SKURJ, me and AA101 tried our best to shoot your butttttttt however you know the results. Skurj 4 us-uns 0
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Originally posted by beet1e
I remember when I used to furball (about four years ago) but I found I wanted to move on to better things.
You know, whenever you get on this topic, I can't help but think that you're casting what is essentially a matter of taste as a matter of maturity, and that as a result, you're needlessly insulting part of your audience.
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Hi there, Pbirmingham. How's life in the Chicago area?
You should not be offended. When I said I moved on to better things, for me they were better things. For you, furballing is a better thing. This whole debate is about which is better/more realistic. If you can't stand the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.
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Maybe the problem is you're using the wrong sauce. Try this:
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Laz, all the maps favor faster planes. Because that has nothing to do with the map. :)
Faster planes are simply more capable than the slower early war planes and always will be.
When you mix them together in an essentially unrestricted manner it isn't the MAP that's causing the early planes to be less than "viable". IMO.
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toad.. you are correct. all the maps favor faster planes but.... it is a matter of degree. Ther smaller maps favor faster planes to a MUCH lesser degree. I can ignore faster planes if there is a lot of planes around. I can't ignore two pee 51's if I am a sector away from safety low on fuel with no ammo and no friendlies around.
beetle... you are as full oif it here as you were in WB. You were never a furballer that I seen. you were allways ogvercautious with a timid agenda and you simply migrated to a philosophy that would justify it. B&Zing the occasional poor slob who had his head up his butt with your 190's was not exactly an evolutionary thing so much as a "finding your niche" thing for you. Glad you found your niche but don't get it mixed up with anything noble or particularly bright. ability to withstand boredom should not be considered a talent.
you claim that hitting undefended bases is... is what? Ok cause if someone wanted to they could stop you or at least... defend? Who cares if you take undefended bases? it just fgives the other teams more timid grous a chance to milkrun your undefended bases while you milkrun theirs.... All in all.... prety timid and unimaginitive gameplay... the worst furball has more variety and action than the best "missun" to an undefended base.
I don't know why you think i would be proud of cherry picking my way to a 5/1 K/D ratio in an MA where a 190 flown timidly was untouchable. Like I said.. I don't count timidity or patiience or tolerance for boredom to be talents... I make no claim as to any great ability or talent only to enjoying good fights. I get more satisfaction out of a kill where they guy seen me than one where he didn't. I get more satisfaction from action than from lining up foolproof kills. I am mediocre at best but I feel that you would have a difficult time flying as I do. If it were easy I suppose I would "move on". Nice explanation of why axis vs allied never works tho.
oh... a quarter is 25 U.S. cents. I knew that they taxed watching TV over there but didn't realize they had moved to computer games... welll, it was bound to happen. Be a good boy and put in the quarter... don't want to be jailed now.
lazs
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Hey lazs,
I've been playing around with the terrain editor, and the idea of an early war area within the arena keeps baffling me.
So, since you initiated the idea, I wanted to ask you:
What planes should be included in the early war area of this map?
So far, based on service introduction dates, we have:
B-26B May-42
Bf 109F-4 Jun-41
Bf 109G-2 Jul-42
C.202 Jul-41
C-47A Dec-41
Hurricane IIc Apr-41
Hurricane IId Jun-42
Ki-61-I-KAIc Nov-42
Lancaster III Mar-42
Seafire IIc Oct-42
Spitfire IX Jul-42
Spitfire V Apr-41
TBM-3 Jan-42
Typhoon IB Jun-42
Could not find the service introduction dates on the A6M2, D3A1, P-40B and P-40E, F4F, or SBD-5, and I almost forgot the Ju-88, but those planes would certainly fall within the early war criteria of the war's start to Dec '42, which is as late as you can go and honestly call something early war. IMO, anything from Jan. '43 to mid '44 is mid-war, after that you are into late war rides.
So, I've laid out the planeset within the early war area, bases would have to be placed close enough to ensure constant and fun fights (canyons?) and varied enough in altitude to balance things out.
On rereading the list, I would disable all the bombers, make it an all fighter area, immune from and unaffected by events outside the ring of mountains which will encircle the area. Who cares how many bases are left outside the area anyway, right? This area is about furballing.......
To keep pesky late war plane out of the area, #1: the mountains will have to be high enough to discourage attempts to cross them; #2: lots and lots of acks placed on top of the mountains.
This is just a rough draft, and I am still learning how to use the editor, and I am open to suggestions..................
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Ok clarification time +)
I have NO, NONE issues with the terrain that the AK's submitted to HTC.
I am assuming eh base layout as far as which country starts with which bases was not an AK decision.
Also, they made the map based on the new size requirements as per HTC.
The terrain itself, the canyons, the GV bases around the edge, the textures are all great!
The issues I have are not the result of something the AK map team did..
Though this rant started after fighting a couple of AK's milkrunning for 2 hours got me pissed +)
SKurj
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eddiek... I would say that "early war" would be better served byu this list..
early war set. NOT allied vs axis...
f4f
p39
p40b
p40e
spit 1
109e
early 110
a6m2
val
ki43
mig1
il16
hurri 1
I am sure that there are others of parity
Parity is the key. A spit 5 would slaughter these others. A 109F would be a triffle overkill also. In WB.. the idea of "generations" or, planesets based on parity more than strict intro dates was used and I thought it was a good one except that they screwed it all up with the axis vs allied nonsense. Look at how many planes in my set are useful/would be used. You could do equally well in just about any of em yet still have enough variety to find the best fit for your particular "style". With your set.... everyone would be in Spit 9 typhoon and spit 5 with a few in 109G's and... even the 190 was in '42. No place for most early war planes in your set. In fact... you don't even mention most of em... perhaps you are being facietious? Either way... I think you can see that a fun early war set with parity is more than possible.
As for seperation.... simple. put 4 sectors between the early area and the closest later war one. So what if you have to erase 20 or so fields.. who would miss em? Yes... put the early war area in the canyons. It would showcase their abilities.
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And, yes, your proposed planeset does appear more attractive. I merely listed the planes that fell within what I consider early war criteria.
True, most people would be in the Spits (when are they not, though?) and restricting people from flying a plane just because it could dominate others within it's realm would almost guarantee that the area would fail to attract the very people who propose it's implementation.
Some of the planes you listed (and I am not criticizing your list) are not yet in AH, but they would make things more challenging if and when they are modelled.
I've based my "criteria" on the total of 72 months (pretty close anyways) from Sept 1, 1939 when Hitler invaded Poland, to August 1945.
Divided into three 24-months sectors, early-war, mid-war, late-war, I got: early-war=Sept 39 to Sept '41; mid-war= Oct '41 to Oct '43; late-war= Nov. '43 to war's end.
And no, I am not being facetious, but I wanted lazs' feedback on what he considered early war planes, as he has numerous times in the past mentioned "early war planes" not having much of a chance with late war monsters lurking about in the same area. His ride, the F4U-1 would not make it into the area, but that is not a slam against him, it is one of those situations where you ought pick your words carefully and be careful what you ask for, no?
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I for one would like to try Laz' idea.
If Laz can work with a mapmaker and a "strategist" ;) to come up with the "Early arena within an arena" map I'd surely give it a good try. I'd even volunteer to try and help although I'll tell you up front I'm not a software type.
As I've mentioned before, my primary interests in AH lie almost exclusively in flying fighters. I really have minimal interest in the land/naval/bombing aspects, although I do those on occasion (usually as a squad function). Of course, I'm all in favor of having that stuff in the game for those who find it interesting. (Check the sig block. ;) )
I'd like to see his ideas given a fair try. I think it would at a minimum prove to be as popular as the CT idea. I suggest using the totally abandoned Dueling Arena server space for the trial.
Laz, I do hope you don't have any of those "degrade the radar and eliminate the icon" wild hairs up your nose. No point in severely limiting the interest before you even start. ;)
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eddiek... I know exactly what I am asking for. I have no interest in flying a -1a in the early war area. I fly a mediocre plane in the current arena and I would most likely fly an F4f or p40 in the early war set.
My set would include a spit and a hurri. The actual timeline is not as important as parity. Spit 5 and spit 9 fit well into a mid war area and would be flown there in any case. A spit one would do quite well against the lightly armored planes of my set. Being bound by introduction dates and axis vs allied simply kills all chance of parity and variety.
Toad... i would say that the less you change at one time the better. I would simply add the early war area onto a large (512) map by putting it in one corner with 4 or 5 sectors of seperation. nothing else need change. If it worked out then people might consider dumping the perk system and adding a mid and late war area. Maybe even keeping the perk system for the late war area.... but for now.... try the early war area.
lazs
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Lazs, I have almost given up trying to understand you. You want a furball arena – OK, I can understand that even if it’s not what I want myself. But then you pour disdain on staying alive! Was I timid in WB? I don’t think so, not in the way that you mean it. I died plenty of times, but generally killed more. The whole WB culture was different from what I find here. The emphasis was on staying alive. What’s the point of getting kills if you’re dead yourself? You are no good to anyone if you are dead. The Japanese kamikaze missions were hugely effective at what they achieved, but I’m not interested in flying them, not even in a sim.
If I may digress for a moment, and go completely off topic by mentioning the real WW2, it has to be said that planes were flown in groups. Of course there was communication, and of course there was organisation. That’s what I had with the Scanian Griffins, and I saw how effective it could be. I flew with those guys over a period of months and only ever died once – my own fault – prop struck water surface when in pursuit of a P47. No shame there – Gabreski did the same thing in Germany and had to ditch, and was captured 5 days later. Just because the SGs and myself were well organised, and the opposition was in disarray, does that make us dweebs? I hardly think so.
And then your latest posting starts rambling. You ask who cares if we take undefended bases? Why, the people who took them from us, I guess.
Lazs, what exactly do you seek to prove? You don’t give a toejam about WW2 or strategy, and yet you play this game as if you want to explore the “What if” scenario. What if what? Are you seriously trying to arrive at what might happen if F4U pilots attacked an enemy in ones and twos, fought to the last bullet and then died? I don’t think that’s how it was in WW2 (oops, I went off topic again). So given this totally abstract scenario in an equally abstract arena, all you can prove is that you can get a high rate of kills per hour – in totally unrealistic circumstances, ie. it proves nothing.
Remember that other PURP we flew with back in 1998, kilbot? He went to the top of the board one ToD. I called him on the phone one time and talked for 45 minutes, and I remember kilbot commenting that the bulletin board combat was often more aggressive than what could be found in the arenas – LOL! How right he was :)
Well Lazs, I’m beginning to see Ripsnort’s point of view when he explained that “the universe revolves around Lazs. No-one else, just Lazs.” But I am no closer to seeing things your way.
I went for an enforced furballing session tonight - got 5 kills (3 in a 190A5, and 2 in a P47-D30) without losing any of my own planes. I suppose the fact that I didn't die makes me a dweeb. :rolleyes:
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beet1e,
why is the core of your furballers argument...dying? What gives you the impression that we "fight to the last bullet and then die", when any cursory glance at stats proves otherwise?
Staying alive is a goal and I simply can't stand being shot down. Why you think otherwise, simply because we enjoy furballing, is quite baffling to me.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Toad... i would say that the less you change at one time the better. I would simply add the early war area onto a large (512) map by putting it in one corner with 4 or 5 sectors of seperation. nothing else need changelazs
Works for me. I see no reason to fool with radar or icons given the current setup options for these features.
Now, if we could SHOW icons at a normal RL distance and have them DISSAPPEAR as you get close enough for the current technology to give you adequate visual cues... THEN there'd be a reason to have "no icons".
This way, "no icons" would occur at relatively close range when you don't need them. You'd still have them at longer ranges where in RL you'd be getting good visual cues but current technology just can't supply similar info.
The idea of getting rid of icons at the longer ranges.. when you'd actually be getting similar information from RL visual cues.... has always seemed strange to me. Especially when the proponents of "realism" suggest it. :)
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beetle... the "what if" I speak of concernes the aircraft of WWII. In WWII the height of prop plane evolution occured. The "what if" is simplyu what the real pilots of WWII did. "how will my Hog do against this P47 or Mustang?" "how will my mustang do against this spit?" they did "what if" dogfites more than they did the real ones. Difference was.... they didn't get to fire their guns.. we do. I want to see how these famous planes woulda done against each other and how I would do against another human in the same plane... or... any combination. I certainly don't want some stuffy reenactment of the obvious.
You obviously don't know what I want and you aren't really looking at yourself either. You want things your way every bit as much as anyone else. You want to tailor an arena to suit your style as much as anyone does.
Who cares about the undefended fields you take? You don't consider what I do a skill and I certainly have never considered what you do a skill. Worse... we both consider the others skill a waste of time. Perhaps we are both right.
lazs
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Originally posted by SKurj
(delete)
The issues I have are not the result of something the AK map team did..
Though this rant started after fighting a couple of AK's milkrunning for 2 hours got me pissed +)
SKurj
This has nothing to do with Skurj, but he just used the word "milkrunning" and I would like a clarification.
What are reasonable activities in AH? Well, you can 1) seek areas dense in enemy aircraft, 2) seek areas which aren't so dense, 3) try to capture bases which can't be captured (see #1), or 4) seek areas which are lightly defended.
#1 is called furballing and if you do that, folks make fun of you; #4 I guess is called milkrunning and if you do that, people curse you. If you do #2), then your presence turns it into #1. #3 doesn't make sense. Hell, I guess I might as well not login. :D
Wait, wait, I have an idea!!! Everyone do whatever they want to do, flying whatever they want to fly.
If someone is capturing undefended bases (and you don't want to stop them), why just ignore them! Either they'll die from the AI or they'll become a serious threat and others will attack them. As I understand it, at that point it won't become milkrunning.
I'm confused!
curly
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Well said Curly.
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In the case i referred to a couple guys were gv'in undefended bases. I would defend for abit when all of a sudden the # of attackers would drop.. and lo and behold another base nearby (undefended) would start flashing
Avoiding fighting other players so u can fight AI and an easy victory in an MMOG is what i call milkrunning +)
Hey i don't deny that i don't do it once in a while +)
SKurj
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curly... there is a fifth option that is a direct result of the pizza map and that is "seek areas that have no population or defenders". In the smaller maps you could do that but not as easily and... certainly, not for too many fields (you ran out of undefended fields). In pizza land you can milkrun for hours and never see another plane that is a threat.
that would make the term "milkrun" a very accurate description of what many are doing in pizzaland.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
curly... there is a fifth option that is a direct result of the pizza map and that is "seek areas that have no population or defenders". In the smaller maps you could do that but not as easily and... certainly, not for too many fields (you ran out of undefended fields). In pizza land you can milkrun for hours and never see another plane that is a threat.
that would make the term "milkrun" a very accurate description of what many are doing in pizzaland.
lazs
And why exactly is that a problem for you lazs?
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Originally posted by lazs2
curly... there is a fifth option that is a direct result of the pizza map and that is "seek areas that have no population or defenders". In the smaller maps you could do that but not as easily and... certainly, not for too many fields (you ran out of undefended fields). In pizza land you can milkrun for hours and never see another plane that is a threat.
that would make the term "milkrun" a very accurate description of what many are doing in pizzaland.
lazs
Thought I had it covered under "Seek areas which are lightly defended."
I don't see why "milkrun" by your definition is a problem. Heck, ignore them. If you ignore them, they'll capture a few fields. Eventually, they'll become a problem and attract a serious amount of attention or they'll find something else to entertain them and stop the milkrunning.
Either you enjoy thwarting milkrunners or you don't. If you do, by all means go for it. If you don't, ignore them. They won't hurt your country.
Lazs, shouldn't you do what you enjoy and not worry about what others are doing? It's should be no skin off your nose if squad xyz is milkrunning while you're enjoying a furball. Eventually, a furball will develope around the milkrunners and then you CAN enjoy the festivities. :)
Lazs, you seem to enjoy stoking the fur in the wrong direction. I would have guessed that you would enjoy getting in a manned ack and watch the GVs creep in. When they get to 4k, kill them. They usually blame it on rocks. :)
curly
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Lazs!
"how will my Hog do against this P47 or Mustang?" "how will my mustang do against this spit?"
The second question is moot because you never fly a Mustang. I’ve just checked your stats, and the only plane you ever fly is the F4U, though I think you may have had a go in an FM2, and come to grief. So you want to know how your hog will do against a Thunderbolt or Mustang? Fine, but surely you have found the answer by now? I mean, why go on doing your analysis year after year, assuming you’re telling me the whole truth? Even when you do your analysis, what do your results prove? Not much. Many of your victims could be experimenting with a different plane, much as I do myself. One of the problems with that is forgetting that the plane you're in now might not be able to do the things you did in the plane you were flying a few minutes ago. I lost two Thunderbolts like that last night – dived down to save a buddy, but was too close to the ground. Could have got away with it in the 190A5! If you are so interested in the relative performance of different aircraft and you're not afraid of being killed, why don’t you fly those other aircraft yourself? That’s one reason I fly different planes. I’ll fly something that just whacked me, just to see what it can and cannot do. Were you to do the same, your analysis might be much more objective. The fact is that while I don’t think you’re telling me porkies, I don’t think you’re being entirely honest either, by which I mean you’re leaving out the real reason why you do what you do.
One of the reasons I started flying the D30 Thunderbolt variant is because I wanted to explore its capabilities as a jabo plane. I now know that fully loaded (2x1000#, 1x500#, 10 rockets), I can destroy a vehicle field hangar, both acks (5 rockets apiece), and a lurking GV with the remaining 500# bomb. I also found that I could flatten an airfield town single handed with that fully loaded plane. I enjoyed making that analysis, and capturing three fields into the bargain, but you simply poured scorn on it. For you to say that you're interested to see how this plane will do against that plane etc., but then to be scornful towards me when I do my analysis is to belie the reasoning behind why you do what you do. (Enter Christmas Turkey #4)
I hope you’re happy now that you’ve got your furball/gangbang/vulchfest/GtG maps back. I shall be making a separate thread about this, and I invite you to flame me :)
Last night, there was nothing much to do but furball, furball, furball, vulch, gangbang and more furball. I got rather tired and was losing concentration – that’s why I lost that second Thunderbolt. But I had a few good furball sorties, but the P47 is no furball animal! I dedicated one sortie to you, my friend. :)
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Originally posted by AKcurly
This has nothing to do with Skurj, but he just used the word "milkrunning" and I would like a clarification.
What are reasonable activities in AH? Well, you can 1) seek areas dense in enemy aircraft, 2) seek areas which aren't so dense, 3) try to capture bases which can't be captured (see #1), or 4) seek areas which are lightly defended.
#1 is called furballing and if you do that, folks make fun of you; #4 I guess is called milkrunning and if you do that, people curse you. If you do #2), then your presence turns it into #1. #3 doesn't make sense. Hell, I guess I might as well not login. :D
curly
I think a good gaming environment channels play down certain paths. Take whatever game you like; sim, RPG, FPS...they all do it. The map is the game space. It, by default, must subtly or forcibly direct the way you play. The assumption here is that it directs your play down some pre-defined paths that the designers have established as "acceptible" or even "preferred" modes of play. Every game must do this, set those targets, and keep them as "checks" against every change made.
In a nutshell that's what we're talking about here, and its exactly why the map is so important in a game like AH. It is the focal point...it directs gameplay. Does that mean forcing people to play a certain way is bad? Depends how you look at it because its happening already, and always has, and always will. Its a core function of game design. The question here is _what_ makes sense for a game like this? And that's a big reason why the pizza map caused many folks to speak up...it DID change the play parameters in many respects. For good or bad would depend on what side of the fence you sat, but gameplay took a fundamental shift on several fronts with that map.
To use an example for milkrunning. This is something that you used to see in CT a lot. It was a result of using to large a map for to few players (exactly what happens with the pizza map). The minute you incorporate that type of game space a good portion of the space itself becomes irrelevant to the player. The game environment, in an online sim anyway, must always strive to force a balance between the ability to act effectively on the offense and defense (in whatever capacity that the game allows for). That makes sense too as you simply can't channel interactions effectively with 100 sectors available bt only 10 people online.
In such an environment milkrunning is more frequent. It now _becomes_ a common form of gameplay. Note: it _wasn't_ before due to the fact that the map size/population provided a check against such activities. It wasn't impossible, but it also wasn't likely to go unchecked. That goes out the window with the pizza map. This is where I think folks like lazs and Skurj are bang on. I hate putting words in peoples' mouth (so correct me if I'm wrong guys), but as I see it its not at all an issue of them telling others _how_ to play. Quite the contrary, its a case of them taking issue with a fundamental shift in the _gameplay_ parameters. Both from the developers and customers pov alike expectations of a continuation of a stable play environment need to be maintained. That didn't happen with the pizza map. Quite the contrary...it went right out the window.
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ak's... i have no problem with people hitting undefended fields but that is different than "lightly defended" as was stated. If that is what they want to do then so be it. I think they are just bored tho.
beetle. i fly a mediocre plane in a mediocre manner. I have fought just about every plane in the set with it and it is fun to do... I have by no means fought every combination of planes and fought with every combinations of planes. I have flown 109's and pee 51's and lags and tiffies and yaks. I didn't like em much cause they didn't suit me or the way I fly in the arena or I felt they gave me too much of and advantage or disadvantage. The FM2 is too slow for the pizza map but i did try it from a badly capped cv with disastrous results... the guys with brains just B & Zed me to death... I couldn't dodge 5 v 1 numbers for long especially if they were willing to die in the ack... plus I'm not that good. I wouldn't have done any better in a hog. Despite your feelings on the matter I feel I am still learning things and.... I like seeing how my teamates (with or without my help) do in and against a variety of planes. Certainly the lack of variety and staleness of allied vs axis would/does become boring and predictable very quicky.
now... if we had an early war area... I would love to fly early war planes against their peers.
i also don't understand why there was "nothing to do but furball" since when I looked at the map the greatest portion of it was deserted. You could have milkrun a bunch of fields. I think what it boils down to is that with the huge map... the fights are so spread out and boring that people say "why not, nothing else to do" when a milkrun "missun" is "organized".... In the small maps there is so many good fights going on that people say "don't bother me I'm busy" to "missuns"
Oh... and I hope that you arent offended but i didn't dedicate any sorties to you... was busy.
lazs
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beetle... (finaly figured out the "l" is a one)... I think the basic problem we have with each other is that we play different. You have a kills per time this tour of 1.5... you averaged around 4 in the old maps. Me, and the guys i know get REAL bored if our kills per hour drop below about 6 I prefer 7 or 8. I also get a lot of assists that add to the action. I want to be fighting someone. you do not.
now maybe.... my kills per hour are more than a lot of guys need to stay happy but... I guarentee that very few would be happy with your 1.5 for the big map. I am curious.... how do you die so much when you take so long to kill someone? And.... don't get too heavy on the stereotype.... I am killed a whole lot by GV's and ack.. not quite "furball only".
When someone who get's 1.5 kills per hour in the pizza map goes on about how it is easy to find furballs or even action... I think you can see where the problem lies?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
curly... there is a fifth option that is a direct result of the pizza map and that is "seek areas that have no population or defenders". In the smaller maps you could do that but not as easily and... certainly, not for too many fields (you ran out of undefended fields). In pizza land you can milkrun for hours and never see another plane that is a threat.
that would make the term "milkrun" a very accurate description of what many are doing in pizzaland.
lazs
I found that quite a few guys were doing "milk runs" to the various Vehicle Bases of the outer ring (AKDesert map) simply (I think) to pad their attack scores. So, I started flying a P-51, Tempest or F4U-4 out there at 15k and was generating plenty of small fights. Typically, 1 v 1, 1 v 2 and even a few 1 v 3 situations occurred. However, having a fast fighter with speed and altitude negated any advantage in numbers. Moreover, all of these were Jabo types, usually heavy and easy marks. Well, after getting smacked a few times on what they thought were risk-free milk runs, they stopped coming. However, just do something else for an hour or so and some other guys will eventually try the same thing, and likewise, I was waiting for them too. Indeed, that outer ring was "cherry-picker" heaven. :D Some of those bases where so far from friendly airfields that I would sometimes land out in the desert and takeoff when the base icon started flashing. It was sort of like doing the GV thing, waiting patiently for the attack you know will eventually come.
My regards,
Widewing
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I found defending the pizza V bases fun too. Though I was in an FM2, looking for fun fights in the canyons, not just padding my score. Kill an M3 or two, and they'd usually come back in fighters.
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Originally posted by popeye
I found defending the pizza V bases fun too. Though I was in an FM2, looking for fun fights in the canyons, not just padding my score. Kill an M3 or two, and they'd usually come back in fighters.
Yeah, FM-2 is a good ride for canyon fighting... Won't take a perk ride down there though, not even a Mustang. I have, however, taken my 109F into the canyons. It turns as good or better than SpitIX and has the climbing ability to get out in a hurry. When I see something like a P-47 or 190A-8 low in a canyon, I know it will have a short violent life should he get boxed in.
My regards,
Widewing
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Lazs!
I am unclear about what you are inferring by asking why I'm dying so much. Given that you express an interest in the spelling of my game ID, I assume that you went to check my score/stats. This ToD, much of what I have done on the pizza map involved driving GVs. I know that doesn't interest you much, but let me explain something. Some guys know how to aim the Panzer turret as to kill an Ostwind or another Panzer with a single ping. They will sit up on a sand dune, turret aimed at the VH spawn point. The moment you spawn, Ping! - you're dead. I tried a number of times to spawn against one of these guys, but he zapped me every time. That's when I realised that some air power was needed - hence the P47 etc.
As for dying in planes - well yes, I do that sometimes, and although I'm no hotshot, I do OK sometimes. As you can see from these stats - which is how I like to view them - I have a 6/1 k/d in the F4U-1D, 7/1 in the Spit IX, 4½/1 in the P47D30, 3¾/1 in the 190A5. I'm happy with that. Does this answer your question? By the way, I have no idea of my k/t, neither do I care. For me, it's a meaningless stat.
Well Lazs, I think we finally ran out of things to argue about. :) It's been fun. I respect you for not flying an uberplane all the time.
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I guess I am saying that in fighter sorties you have 1.44 kills per hour and a K/D of 0.666/1. I only fly fighter sorties so that is all that I can compare to. It also appears that you flew very few fighter sorties in the pizza map. When someone is telling me about gameplay or action or furballing.... i like to look at their stats. Often.... the problem lies in the fact that we enjoy different things. That is the case here i believe.
lazs