Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: F4UDOA on December 27, 1999, 10:52:00 PM
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I know there has been a lot of debating about the modeling of certain aircraft in peticular
the F4U Corsair. As far as speed, rate of roll as well as climb rate. But do you realize that the F4U in AH has a losing combat record VRS. every single Aircraft in AH that carries a gun including the B-17.
Nearly 2 to 1 vrs the NiKi. This is one of the A/C that it accumulated an 11 to 1 kill ratio against in the pacific. These nubers should indicate that there is some mistake in A/C modeling in the current game format. It is a sluggish and slow moving A/C at best in this game. Hardly the record indicated in war time record or testing vrs the same A/C that it cannot compete against in AH.
Something to consider.
Thanks
F4UDOA
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Heya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I am not sure about how close the flight model is.. she doesn't stall very sudden and with alot of warning. Climb rate and roll rate may be off.. BUT all this is stuff they are working on and we will see it change a few more times till HTC things they have it right.
As for kill/death in the Hawg, you need to consider the Hawg pilots up there skill wise and the pilots they are meeting death by. I don't do great .... avg at best ... but I have had multi kill sorties in the hawg.. I just have kept her fast and not been suckered into a turn. I checked my stats the other day vs plane type and I think it was the la5 that I had more kills than deaths and the spit was the worst.. tons of deaths against em.. I get suckered into turning with em too much.. I will learn not to do that some day.
I am going to wait till they say check the FM for the Hawg before I do any big checks on it and continue to fight and die (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also I tend to jump in out numbered and at disadvantage E wise many times.. the rest of the time I just plain blow good merges (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rocket
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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
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I believe LA5 has the best record in AH at the moment?
In the war between Russia and Finland 41-44 the finns had about 10:1 kill/loss ratio against LA5's, flying *Brewster Buffalos*. Brewster model 239 was voted the worst US fighter in WW2...
Sometimes the figures don't tell the whole truth. Especially when one doesn't know all the facts and factors behind them.
"The better trained team wins. Always."
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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F4UDOA, judging from you comments in the modeling thread, and in this one, it would seem to me that your new to this, and I think you have alot to learn.
Now, don't take me wrong this isn't a flame (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) There is nothing wrong with being new or learning. But I don't think you have participated much in the "higher end" of realistic WWII Flight Sims. More specifically, Warbirds or Full Realism Airwarrior, and now here in Aces High.
Why? Because there is NO COMPARISON between the actual war and the open arena we fly in, in this simulation. Sad to say, but its true.
Even in Historical Scenarios (and I have participated in many, and even run quite a few) where we strive for accuracy, strange things can happen.
You can take the most realistic Flight Models possible known to man, and if you fly them in an ahistorical manner, you will get vastly different results.
My point is that its not a valid arguement to say that because a plane is not as famous or effective in the simulation as in the war, that the flight model must be off.
Lets look at your "Nearly 2 to 1 vrs the NiKi. This is one of the A/C that it accumulated an 11 to 1 kill ratio against in the pacific. These nubers should indicate that there is some mistake in A/C modeling in the current game format arguement.
First off this is an entirely misleading, if not incorrect statement, that has nothing to do with the arena or the accuracy of the flight models.
Yes the F4U had a 11 to 1 kill ratio against all Japanese aircraft. But that included Fighters (most of which were the Zero, not the N1K2), Bombers, TorpedoBombers, Reconnaisance, Transports, and even general utility aircraft. A more accurate number may be what was the F4U kill ratio versus Japanese Fighters? Or even better, what was the F4U kill ratio versus the N1K2 "George"?
And let me assure you that the N1K2 Shinden is not anything like a A6M5 Zero. In fact its much more comparable to a FW190 or even the F4U, than to the Zero. Check out the numbers, they don't lie.
Even then the numbers would be a flawed comparison.
Why? Because even your "average" pilot in a simulation like this, is vastly more experienced than even the "aces" of the real war. We have the opportunity to "die" many times and learn from our experiences. In real life you had one opportunity, if you made a mistake it was all over.
And even if you compare flight hours to flight hours, we come out ahead. Why? In real life, the pilots would fly for days without seeing an opponent, while here we take off and in 5-15 minutes we are assured of engaging in combat, most likely dying, taking off and doing it all over again.
In WWII, by the time that the N1K2 Shinden was introduced (late 1944), the average Corsair pilot had about 3 or 4 times the experience, that the average Japanese fighter pilot had. But the most important thing to remember is that by that time, the US also had a huge numerical advantage, and there were probably 4 Corsairs for every enemy fighter they encountered. In the arena, even 2 to 1 odds are considered "horrible", and they are usually much more even than that.
Also lets look at how we fight in the arena. Most fights start at or below 15,000ft and typically procede down to the deck. In real life, pilots were much more cautious, and learned that Altitude+Speed = LIFE. The biggest advantage that the F4U had was that it maintained its power and performance in higher altitude bands than the Japanese aircraft. How many times have you been killed in a F4U-1, in Aces High, by a N1K2 at 25,000ft ? If it happened, it was your own fault and you deserved to die.
Another factor is Icon's. With the game's icon system we use (a necessary evil) you can easily spot incoming aircraft, and see aircraft out to a very far distance with little effort and great accuracy. This leads to mostly low level pig pile furballs with constant streams of aircraft replacements from both sides from the nearest airbase.
Not exactly how the real war was fought.
In short, do this. Take the arena pilots and give the Corsair side a 3 or 4 to 1 numerical advantage. Also the N1K2 Shinden side should have most of the "newbie" pilots.
Make it so that you only have "one life to live" and move all the bases apart so that you have to fly for hours before you engage, and that there are no streams of instant replacements. Oh, and dont' forget that combat should be initiated at much higher altitudes that we commonly do.
hmmmmmm..... Fear of death, how do we simulate that???? I GOT IT !!! Every pilot has high voltage electrodes taped to his testicles, so that if he is "killed" he gets a really nasty shock.
Now, run it that way for 4 years and check Kill to Death ratio's for the aircrafts like you described, and you might get a somewhat representative statistic to use for aircraft flight performance comparison.
Even then it would be flawed.
Remember, the Arena is NOT real life.
<steps down off soapbox> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Wow !! I really did go off on a rambling dissertation of a RANT there didn't I ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Sorry F4UDOA, nothing personal. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Nah, that was fine Verm...should be required reading for all incoming pilots (incoming to online flight simming, that is).
And you know, the Hog is all I fly...and in the cyberworld, you do the best you can with what you've been in love with since you started these silly games (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X
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Verm;
hmmmmmm..... Fear of death, how do we simulate that???? I GOT IT !!! Every pilot has high voltage electrodes taped to his testicles, so that if he is "killed" he gets a really nasty shock.
HMMMmmmm.... A little harsh. How about no beer for 2 days consectutive? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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I said fear of death Mino (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Not inhumane torture <G>.
Damn, we can't do that, the Haige prosecutors would be after us for War Crimes if we did that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Minotaur :
Just want you to know that this is my first
post to the board. It's your fault - how dare
you suggest taking away my beer! ;-)
If you take a look at my score you will probably assume that i fly with a beer in my hand and many of my keys don't work because
of spillage.
Sourkraut
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Sourkraut
JG-2
http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/home.htm
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I agree with Camo, the Brewster buffalo is a good example (However I don't think the finns faced any serious number of La-5FN's in BB's they probably faced them in Me-109's by the time they appeared)
The plane you flew was nothing compared to the training and mentality of the pilots in them. At the start of the war Finns had a highly trained (And slightly crazy?) air force that demolished the russian airforce in equal or slightly inferior Brewster Buffaloes.
Also remember Malta, the entire Italian airforce tried to hold down the air over Malta and was consistently foiled by 4 biplanes (Fairey's or gladiators? I can't remember) named Faith, Hope and Charity. (Only three ever flew at once) if you add up the number those planes probably had more individual kills than any planes in WWII!
And they were very outclassed by the italian fighters facing them.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Vermillion,
I have read your web page many times so I am even more surprised by your response. You seem to have a grasp on the over all performance of the F4U vs other A/C in AH but don't seem to realize some basic things.
1st. I have been flying full realism in AW to
AW3 for three years. In a squad in multiple senario's. I have a very good understanding of flight simulations and how they work.
2nd. I am aware that the best pilot always wins. But this is a simm. People first fly what is there favorite A/C and then fly the A/C that gives them the best chance of victory. In the case of AH you will find that the basic skill level is the same in all A/C.
How many people really have any real skill?
Just as in war 20% of the pilots do 80% of the killing. The rest all fall into the middle of the pack. So when you look at A/C vr A/C you can determine what aircraft allows you the best oppertunity for success. It just a random sampling. Like taking a poll to find an average.
3rd. The positive traits of the F4U are Climb,
speed and maneuverability (to include rate of roll and turn radius). The F4U exhibits none of these features in AH. Vermillion you have all of these facts in your own data base yet you choose to either ingore them or not understand them. The Niki was a 380mph a/c on it's best day. The Focke Wolf was 30mph slower on the deck than the F4U. And the Mustang had much higher wing loading that did not enable it to climb or turn with the F4U.
I could give 20 pages from AHT to quote these facts as well as the fighter test report of the F4U and F6F evaulation vrs the Focke Wolf
Fw-190A-5.
Anyway if a reality based flight simm is what you want then you need to pay attention to the facts that you have. Again I enjoy these conversations so nothing person should be taken.
Thanks F4UDOA
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FM'S ARE :-
ROUGHED IN, UNFINISHED, INCOMPLETE, WAITING FOR AN OVERHAUL, NOT FINALIZED, BASIC & WRONG.
BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA
DID I MENTION THE BETA
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 12-28-1999).]
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"This is one of the A/C that it accumulated an 11 to 1 kill ratio against in the pacific. These nubers should indicate that there is some mistake in A/C modeling in the current game format."
No disrespect dude, but that statement doesn't merit a reply.
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But nobody mentioned the most important fact why Hog performs so poor. It fights the opposition it naver faced and was not made to fight it.
How many Hogs died at the guns of P 51D in AH ? At the hands of Spit ?
Not to mention it is one of the easiest targets for 109.
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This is one of the A/C that it accumulated an 11 to 1 kill ratio against in the pacific. These nubers should indicate that there is some mistake in A/C modeling in the current game format.
If we use WW II war time records to model planes then Bf 109G-2 and Bf 109G-6 should be real killers, they achieved nearly 25 to 1 kill ratio against VVS flown Spitfires, Yak's, La's and Mustangs when those Bf 109's were used by Finnish pilots. And Brewster Buffalo was not far behind...
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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!
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F4UDOA, even if the 1D Hog's FM is improved, it's still not going to be a top killer. I've flown it in AW, WB, and now AH, and it was/is the same story in each case: the plane is competitive, but not outstanding. The -4 is another issue. You just have to accept that it's not going to live up to its historical record. In WBs my squadron, VF-17, gives an award called the Kepford (in honor of Ike Kepford, the JRs top ace) for 16 kills in the MA with no deaths. Now, that might not sound like a lot, given the high scores that some folks rack up, but in the Hog, it's not easy to accomplish. And from what I've seen in AH, it might be even harder here. So be it.
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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X
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If you want to see the F4U shine, fill the arena with Ki-43 and A6M.
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F4UDOA, like I said, I was mainly trying to make a point that its incorrect to take statistics like you quoted, and make FM adjusts. It wasn't personal at all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Here is where your problem is.
You love the Corsair, and in Aces High we have the F4U-1D. Excellent aircraft, and the -1 (or Dash One as I call it) was easily the most representative model produced. However, the -1, is basically a 42-43 midwar variant.
What aircraft in Aces High, is the Hog fighting against?
P-51D__Late War Variant
Me-109G10__ Very Late War Variant
Fw190A8__Late War Variant-Specialized bomber killer
Spit IXF__ Late War Mark IX Variant
N1K2__Very Late War Variant
C.205__ Mid War Variant
La-5FN__ Mid War Variant
Starting to see my point?
Put the -1D exclusively up against the C.205 or the La5, and it will start to take over the role that the Pony is currently filling in AH. It will dominate most any fight if flown intelligently. It will also do the same if matched up against a 109F or an early model 109G, or a Spit V.
Basically what is needed, and in my opinon more representative to the planeset, is the F4U-4. Late War variant versus Late War variants. Then you will see the results and matchups you are looking for.
But don't feel cheated, there are other "camps" of pilots out there in the same boat. 190 pilots feel they should have the Dora, Lavochin pilots feel they need the La-7, and even some Spitfire pilots want the Mark XIV. And they all have a valid arguement.
Ahhh now to my favorite part (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) the N1K2 Shinden arguement. Basically, there are several pilots (myself included) that feel if anything the N1K2 is undermodeled in Aces High. Go back and read some of the older "N1K2 Flight Tests" threads in this forum. They are quite interesting.
And just so you know, the Aces High N1K2, doesn't perform anywhere near as well as the Air Warrior N1K2. Not even close. It is lacking approximately 25%-30% of its top speed and climbrate throughout the altitude ranges.
What it really comes down to though is that there is a severe lack of accurate flight test data for this bird, or any late model Japanese Fighters.
Don't trust that 380 mph number you are throwing out. It is quite possible it is an error, that has propagated over the years.
Another example, read the Ki-84 Frank section of Francillons, "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War". Easily the most definitive Japanese aircraft book. FYI the Ki-84 and the N1K2 both had the same 2000hp Homare engine in them.
In it he himself lists the top speed of the Ki-84, at aprox. 390-400 mph (at work don't have the book in front of me), which is the commonly given top speed of the plane that you see in the "reference books" most of us use.
But then he immediately goes on to tell of how a captured Ki-84 was Flight Tested in Pennsylvania in 1946, and it reached a speed of over 420 mph.
So until someone can come up with some definitive flight test data for either of these birds, I will be quite skeptical.
Hey if you want to start a "We Need the -4 Corsair" campaign, I will back you up. But until we get it, you just won't be seeing the kind of performance that you are expecting in relation to the other aircraft in Aces High.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Me-109G10__ Very Late War Variant - Spring '44 is "Very Late War"?!
Spit IXF__ Late War Mark IX Variant - Ahh, because Spring '42 is "Late War"... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Juzz:
I will have to check some references, but the G10 or even the K4 was in combat strength in spring 44? I was under the impression that it was a winter 44 aircraft.
And on the Spitfire, well go do some Spitty research. And then reread what I wrote "Late War IX variant" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Which means that it was the late war variant of the Mk IX.
On the Spitfire Mk IX, there were 3 seperate subvarients, the LF, F, and HF each optimized for different altitude bands. And in addition there were 3 different Merlin engines (from memory) the Model 60, 61, and 66. And I am not even going to go into the clipped wings and such.
The Aces High Spitfire Mk IX is a unclipped F variant, with a Merlin 66 I believe (See FdSki's post on Spitfires to Pyro, and the answer). Which was the 1944 variant of the aircraft.
So yes I consider 1944 Late war in relation to other aircraft (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) "
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 12-29-1999).]
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I'm exhausted,
All I am asking for is a realalistic Flight model for the F4U. Does anyone realize that
the F4U-1D was a late war fighter and did not enter service until 1944? It's contemperaries
are the P-51D and the Focke Wolf Fw-190A-8 and D-9. The only single important factor in the flight model can be flight test data.
The F4U was tested extensivly against the likes of P-47D, P-51D, F6F-3 and 5 and yes against the Niki and Ki-84. Even the Fw-190A4. Remember the F4U flew against far more maneaverable A/C than were in the Euro-theater of operations. But in fact it had lower wing loading than the P-51 and Fw-190. The F4U could easily out turn either of these a/c in the virtical or horiziontal planes. It also had better HP to weight ratio below 15k. These are facts based on test data. Not my opinion.
Anyway I want to give everyone a required reading assignment. Try reading from the Shiffer military publications book, the
"Report of joint Fighter Conferance"
NAS Patuxant River MD 16-23 OcT. 1944.
This is not a book or an opinion. This is a report on the joint test of Army, Navy, British and Contract pilots determining the future of fighter A/C. These are the actual meeting notes and flight cards. Not someones brothers webpage were the Niki or Ki is a superplane.
Also try reading "Focke Wolf Fw-190 Work horse of the Luftwaffe". It has the actual flight test data from the test of a 190-A5 VS
an F4U-1 and F6F-3. Read this report and tell me what you would rather go to combat in.
And by the way, the A-5 was a much faster climber than a A-8 which was much heavier.
I am not asking for and uber plane.
Just and acurate description of the real thing.
F4UDOA
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I did some Spitty research, and look what I found:
Boscombe Down 22 October 1942 F Mk IX BF274 Merlin 61 AUW 7,480
BF274 carried an incorrect serial number thoughout its entire service life. Actual number was BS274. Converted from MK V to MK IX.
from the url provided in the Spit IX thread by fd ski http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html) So :P
As for the Bf109G-10, I don't know when it entered service in "combat strength", but it was available in early/mid 1944 at least. The K-4 was in service by the first month of 1945 I think(btw; of the 14000 Bf109's manufactured in 1944, only 754 were designated as K's).
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Juzz:
hehe read your OWN quote (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
October 1942 F Mk IX BF274 Merlin 61
See where it says Merlin 61? We have the Merlin 66 Spitfire.
<rasberries Juzz> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And at least according to Messerschmitt Bf 109 in Action, Part 2. Aircraft No. 57 Squadron/Signal Publications page 44 "The G-10 was issued to units in early fall 1944, coinciding with a slight resurgence of the Luftwaffe day fighter units."
<rasberries Juzz again>
heheh Just kidding Juzz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm starting to think its a matter of "He with the most aircraft books wins"?
PS: I got a Spitfire Pilots Manual for Christmas if any of you Nancy Boy Spitfire Pilots are interested (j/k)
[For those with general thin skins, note that I am kidding with Juzz thru most of this post]
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) "
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 12-29-1999).]
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Pyro
Administrator posted 12-19-1999 01:23 PM
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The AH Spit is a F.IX with a Merlin 61.
See where it says Merlin 61? We have the Merlin 61 Spifire. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And read this too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) And at least according to Messerschmitt Bf 109 in Action, Part 2. Aircraft No. 57 Squadron/Signal Publications page 44 "The G-10 was issued to units in early... ...1944, coinciding with a slight resurgence of the Luftwaffe day fighter units."
I win! I win! I win! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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When the light was right it was actually possible to see the 30mm(1.18ins) shells in flight. - Heinrich Beauvais(Test Pilots, W.Späte).
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Corsair's , Corsair's, Corsairs.... *sigh* The real Corsair experts like Windle or Spinny are gonna eat me alive on this one, but here goes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ok, F4UDOA, I give you that the F4U-1D was first issued to the Navy in April 1944, just in time for the Marshall Islands Campaign.
But dig deeper, and ask the question "What is the F4U-1D?"
Essentially, the -1D model is a Fighter/Bomber conversion of the -1A model.
Specifically, the changes from the -1A to the -1D model are as follows: Two wing pylons replaced the single centerline pylon. Provisions for 8 rockets were added. The internal wing fuel tanks were removed (but drop tanks were usually carried instead). Also changes to the tail gear and the layout of several cockpit instruments were made. Otherwise they were the same aircraft, including the R-2800-8W powerplant.
So performance wise, you added quite a bit of drag for the external stores attachment points, and kept the same powerplant. You might convince me that the -1D would roll better (due to the wing tank deletion) than the earlier -1A and -1, but otherwise its gonna perform very very similarly.
Also it should be understood, that the big performance difference between the -1A and the -1, was that the R-2800-8 engine was changed to the R-2800-8W . Which meant that water injection was added, which would only change the WEP characterisitics in our game. (also the canopy and some aileron modifications/stall characteristic changes were made)
So basically if you are flying the F4U-1D, you are flying a F4U-1 with better visibility, milder stall characteristics, and a more powerful WEP, (the only real difference in the two), but with increased drag.
The F4U-1 was first issued to VMF-124 in December 1942, and arrived in combat in the South Pacific in January 1943.
So maybe you disagree, but I think my statement that the F4U-1D is basically a midwar (1942-1943) aircraft has quite a bit of merit. Especially when you look at performance.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Oh Yeah almost forgot ....
Before you start throwing out references and handing out "required reading assignments" to make yourself and your arguements sound better. In this case, the NAS Joint Fighter Conference. I would suggest that you actually READ them.
The only German or Japanes aircraft tested at the conference was a single Japanese A6M-5 Zero. And it was restricted to very small portion of the pilots present, due to fears of losing it in an accident.
There was not a N1K2, Ki-84, or even a FW190 tested at the conference, all of which you insinuate in your post.
The only foreign aircraft(all British designs) tested at the conference were a Seafire MkIII, a Firefly Mk I, and a Canadian Mosquito Mk BXX.
And your calling Rene Francillon's book, "someones brothers webpage were the Niki or Ki is a superplane. ?? LOL!!! now your just showing your own ignorance. Do an author's search on Barnes & Nobles, and enlighten yourself.
I guess we do agree on one thing, lets forget about anecdotal evidence or pilots opinons, only flight test data is acceptable.
And so far I haven't seen any hard numbers on how the Aces High F4U-1D is significantly different from flight test data.
<throws down a broken and bloodied club>
Ok Curly bring me a fresh club !! This one is still twitching (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/temp/sealpup.gif)
I'm kidding... I'm kidding
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) "
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 12-29-1999).]
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"All I am asking for is a realalistic Flight model for the F4U."
That would be cool!
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<hands verm a club>
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Sorry to dissapoint you vermillion but i will defend my spitfire.
============================================= The Mk IX Spitfire was also an adaption of the Mk V, and used the Merlin 61 engine with a four bladed propeller. The early Mk IX aircraft were delivered in June 1942 to 64 Squadron based at Hornchurch. Timing could not have been better because the Germans had just developed the Focke-wulf 190 fighter, and it was at least 30 mph faster than the RAF's Mk V Spitfires. The Merlin 61 gave the Mk IX an increase of 70 mph over the top speed of the older Mk V. It was soon found that the Fw 190 operated best between 14,000 and 20,000 ft, a height that the Spitfire Mk IX did not handle at its best. So the HF and LF series was adopted by the Mk IX. The HF Mk IX carried a Merlin 61 or 63 engine whilst its LF sister aircraft carried a Merlin 66. Within months of entering service the Mk IX replaced almost all the serving Mk V Spitfires and became the new workhorse of most fighter squadrons.
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and also try this
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But the Mk.IXs built in late 1944 are actually very different, with a larger rudder, fuel tanks in the aft fuselage, and the E-wing with two 20mm cannon and two .50 guns. Another addition is a gyro gunsight, which greatly improves combat effectiveness.
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As you can see our version is the first(and worst?) version.
Mabye if you want to give us spitters a better chance we could have this '43 jobby
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On the 8th August 1942 the first Griffon 61 engined Spitfire took to the air. It had a top speed of over 450 mph and could reach 30,000 ft in less than eight minutes. This new Spitfire, the Mk XII, was to take on a fighter role and fifty were ordered to be built by the end of that year. This was an impossible task and the first production aircraft was not to fly until October. Only five of the fifty ordered were ready by the end of 1942 and only 100 Mk XIIs were ever built.
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this by the way is a joke (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) i wouldn't be that cruel.
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Maybe this will bring this thread to an end.
Last night there was an "historical" matchup between Hogs and Niks. My impression was that it was pretty much of a draw, but I don't have any hard numbers (are there any?). I do know this, and this reaffirms something Verm wrote earlier, above 20K, the Hog outmatches the Nik. The first wave of Niks came in high, and I don't think they did very well. As the fights got lower, the balance shifted toward the Nik. I made the mistake of chasing Nicolai down low, and he flew me into the ground...nice flying there pal (and he was out of ammo, too!! Superb flying on his part).
I've said this in other fora, but what we have in the arenas in these online flight sims is essentially World War II aircraft fighting in a World War I environment: low-alt furballs. Certain planes do well in this environment, others do not...the Hog is one of the ones that doesn't. Up high, though, I think I can hold my own against any plane in the set, with the exception of the 109, but against him, I always have my dive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X
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Spinny ... send me a virtual Kepford (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Managed a killstreak of 34 in the big blue bird last week as part of our squadron's 'Enter the Hog' week-long mini-scenario.
A virtual Kepford will look real nice on my virtual mantlepiece (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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Spinny: We did fine up high, the disparity you see is that after our first run we could not climb as high as you. When you think back by the second wave all the hogs were at 15-20k by the time they encontered us and we were at 12-15k. Hence you had alt advantage and we were trying to suck you down into us.
And yes the Nik2 is a much better fighter low and slow. We are more acrobatic, fight better at low speeds and have 4x20mm to make sure every snap shot counts. Hell you should know that by fighting them in the arena's. Every F4U that turned more than twice signed it's own death warrent.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Well, heat of battle, etc. I still maintain
a Hog will beat a Nik above 20K, but as they say, we shall see...nice fights, though. Congrats to you guys.
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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X
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It appears to be just nerve twitching on his part now verm. You beat that poor bugger bad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Maybe next time he decides to try and slug it out text for text with you he'll come with an ounce of real preparation before jacking his jaws off like a fool.
Curly
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Anyhow i've noticed several times that you can disengage at will with a F4U from a Niki in AH. Given you have equivilent E state and you have some WEP left. Also i've had a pretty drawn out engagement with a niki back with version .42 where i was able to outrun and climb the niki at 200 KIAS down low at 3000 to 8000 feet. It should be even easier with the new FM changes (better acceleration)
SC-Duckwing6
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Juzz, Vermillion:
Some K-4s were actually delivered earlier than G-10s. And that happened in fall '44.
//fats
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Kill, Kill, Kill,
Ok Vermillion. You are dancing around the facts. If you think I am so far off in my facts tell me this. Do you disagree that the F4U had lower wing loading and could turn inside the likes of a P-51b or D. Or for that matter a Focke Wolf of any model later than a
A-4? Do you disagree that the F4U had better low speed control IE 100MPH to 150MPH than both of these aircraft? Do you think that the aileron controls or directional stability were better at low speed? Also if you actually read the book that you are obviously paraphrasing from someone else's summary, you would realize that the P-51B and later had serious direction stability problems both in turning maneuvers and in a dive. The F4U was rated as having the best stability and control in a dive. Second in best overall stability and control and first in nicest harmonazation of controls. Also from reading exerpts from other souces quoting the fighter
conferance you may believe the Mustang was voted the number one fighter A/C for 25K and under. IT WAS NOT. The F8F Bearcat had 30 votes the P-51D had 29 and the F4U-1D had 27.
Also there were 4 additional F4U votes for the F4U-4 and F2G models which only a few pilots were allowed to fly. So if this is the case then why is the F4U-1D such a dog in AH?
Please use facts in your arguments this time Vermillion to dispute mine. I know there were
not many changes in the airframe from the -1 to the -1D. I have the BOOK!
The reason I am not disputing any claims for the performance of the Niki is because I do not have and either do you difinitive information on the flight test. But I can tell you as I did in my previous e-mail to read Fw-190 workhorse of the Luftwaffe.
There is plenty of flight test data on the Fw-190A-5 vrs the F4U. Again a much faster climber than the A-8 which was heavier.
I throw the gauntlet at your feet.
And your baby seal picture is disturbing.
What kinky website were you on when you picked that off huh? Anyway I want you to dispute these items with real data. And tell
your brother in-law Francis I said hello.
F4UDOA
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LOL!!! Dancing around facts? Well, at least I post facts, data, figures, and dates.
All you have done is post your personal opinon that you feel that the F4U-1 is a dog, some totally inapropriate statistical evidence (kill ratio's), and some pilots opinons from the fighter conference.
To be honest, I think the F4U in Aces High already easily outhandles the P-51, and the other planes just like you described in the above post.
In my opinon, you just don't have enough experience with this flight model and your just getting outflown. Simple.
Till you come back with some kind of hard data or test that shows that the F4U-1 has flaws in the Flight Model, I'm done in this thread.
Basically I'm just sick of listening to your baseless whining complaints that the Corsair isn't some kind of uber bird.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Geez,
Vermillion. You are the one telling me that I am wrong. If you dispute anyone of these facts I have posted from head to head flight comparisons then please dispute away. But all you are giving me are reprinted stats from some source three or four times removed from the actual data. Most of the specs available on warbirds today are way off. Over estimations of A/C performance. Especially the P-51D. The P-51 became an Uber Bird years after WW2. It's story became retold until it bacame untouchable through
mistated facts and figures. The Niki was a tremendous a/c but it's wartime performance is not reflected in AH because for one there is no real reliable data. And two the A/C was known to have severe handling problems by the pilots who flew it which are not modeled in to AH currently. You don't hear me screaming about the spitfire because everyone knows for a fact that it was the predominate dogfighter of it's day. Have you ever heard the expression about the Mustang "It won't do what the Spitfire will do, but it will do it over Germany"? Well in AH it is a long range Spitfire. The A/C models I have a beef with are as follows.
1. F4U-1D Climb and low speed handling
This a/c had a power on stall speed of 76mph
and a climb to 20k in roughly 8min or under.
Also this a/c was regarding as being extremely directionally stable. With virtually no aileron trim required to go from level to diving. This is not the case in the current FM.
2. P-51D This a/c could not climb as well as modeled. It took over 1200ft to leave the runway in a clean config and took roughly 8min to reach 20k. Also it was know to be directionaly unstable in high speed maneuavers were the a/c is yawed.
3. The Fw-190A-8. The A-4 model was an excellent climber however the A-8 incorperated many additional weight gains to the A/C. It's climb and wingloading are overmodeled.
4. The Niki fly's with almost no torque effect on takeoff and vitually no trimm or rudder required with a two thousand hp engine. It also display's none of the adverse stabilty conditions it had inherant to it.
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1. AH F4U-1D takes roughly 8 minutes to get to 20k.
2. AH P-51D also takes about 8 minutes to get to 20k.
3. AH Fw190A-8 takes around 8 minutes to get to 20k. (10 minutes of WEP is a good thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
100% power, 100% fuel:
F4U-1D - 8'42"
P-51D - 8'20"
FW190A-8 - 8'43"
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When the light was right it was actually possible to see the 30mm(1.18ins) shells in flight. - Heinrich Beauvais(Test Pilots, W.Späte).
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 01-01-2000).]
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F4UDOA: ummh.. I tried out F4u, it turned with spitfries at low speeds..
Something wrong in the picture?
I don't think F4u turns with spitfries, definetly not when slow (maybe with spitfrie XIV but...)
I keep F4u very very fine now, could be downgraded a bit with its awesome turning radius. (bybye spit dweebs, u guys losing even for B-26 in turning race soon, you guys better get those magic stars on the wings)
Fw190a8 climb overmodelled? ohhh.. give me a break.. I climb barely 2500fpm to 20k, and needle drops below 2000fpm before 20k.
Btw. Fw190a8 has also more HP compared to earlier ones, which makes up with extra weight.
Major changes in A-8 should be have more armour, outboard MG151/20, better engine with more HP.
If you go downgrade climb rate of Fw190a8, it doesn't climb anymore like fighter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Good Cod. Fishu? Is F4UDOA a long lost brother of yours??
Amazing how blind faith makes one look so foolish. Hey F4UDOA.....
..... <spooky hand wave>.....
It's a conspiracyyyyyyyyy!!!!!
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Well Juzz if you say so I'll have to take your word for it. It seems the last time I tried to meter my climb in an F4U vrs a P-51
I was left in the dust. The F4U's climb best climb angle varies greatly from a P-51 in that the P-51's best climb speed is between
160 and 170mph. The f4U is approx 144mph.
This differance is because of the airframes being designed for different missions. The
F4U is a carrier based fighter/intercepter
originally which would require it to climb at a higher angle to intercept incoming A/C.
The P-51 took almost 1300ft to get of the runway and would climb at a shallower angle
at higher speed for longer ranging missions.
When I a alt x to auto angle climb the best I can do is a 200mph 2200fpm climb which doesn't reflect the climb of an intercepter.
Why your F4U was turning with a Spit of any
flavor I don't know Fishu. The only time a F4U should turn a spitty is at 200knt plus turns were the the spit won't bleed energy like the F4U. Remember if the spit driver doesn't chop throttle he won't drop his speed and will keep a very large turning circle.
In flight test against the zero the F4U-1d
the zero could gain a tail shot in four turns. The F4U with flaps could stay with the zero for a quarter turn with the use of flaps
at 200mph but would then loose speed and the zero would gain very quickly. The spitty shouldn't be to far behind the Zero in turning. And as far as the climb of the Focke Wolf A-8. I would rather see an A-4 in this game anyday. It was the best of the Wolf's until the D-9. But the A-8 still should not be able to out climb or run away from the F4U
on the Deck. Maybe my E state is bad or maybe my load out was heavy. But I don't think so...
F4UDOA