Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: glenmorangie on September 05, 2004, 08:37:49 PM
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This one is almost soup. Opinions, Please. Info below.
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak9%20Top.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak9%20Bottom.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak9%20Left.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/YAk9%20right.jpg)
Here's the information:
Info.txt:
Yak-9R, Southern Front, 1944
293 IAP
Pilot Unknown
Manufactured at Zavoda 153
Camouflage: AII Brown, Light Brown, Blue
Reference: Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-1945, Eric Pilawskii pp. 164, 169, 186, (pictures) 187.
Color chips obtained from Eric Pilawskii on-line at "Modelling the Aircraft of the Soviet VVS".
Known Adjustments:
Control surfaces, panel lines and shape:
I have 3 sets of line drawings of the aircraft in various versions. None of the 3 match one another when properly scaled. None of the 3 matches the AH skin when scaled. Panel lines, fairings, access panels and control surfaces are all “best-guess” for size and location. There are no trim-tabs on the AH skin, “no push” stencils are improperly placed on the control surfaces. Shape and size of the skeletons of the control surfaces matched to the AH skin. These are different on each of the different line-drawings, too.
Wing Roots: The forward and aft portions of the wing roots are skinned from two tiny areas out on the wing.
1) The camouflage pattern on the right wing was adjusted from the standard to get the wing roots dark brown at the proper places.
2) Portions of the wing roots are impossible to weather.
Underside Fuselage:
The fuselage underside is skinned from the inner wing.
1) The gear doors are not accurate. Panel lines must stop so they are not repeated on the underside of the fuselage.
2) The fuselage underside is not weathered.
3) The sides of the scoop are unavailable for stencils.
Underside Wing Mirroring:
The wing underside is mirrored.
1) Weathering is the same on both wings.
2) The stencils on the left wing are mirror.
Changes/Additions:
Fuel Gauges: Added correct “late” fuel gauges per the “Modelling the VVS” website.
Lift Points: Added indications of lift points.
Stencils: Added stencils in correct places where possible. They look great at 1200dpi. When sized to a line 5 pixels high, they are generally unreadable, but I felt the airplane looked better with them, so I left them on.
Wing and tail panel lines: Removed, there are none. The airplane is plywood covered, coated with resin and sanded. The side fuselage and nose panels are metal and removable. The fuel tanks show from below. Small Fuel-filler and access panels show from above.
Weathering: I have 4 books with pictures of Yaks in them. I have never seen an airplane this dirty or weathered. There is exactly one photo which shows any wear at all around the wing-root. There are few photos showing exhaust. There are no photos showing leading edge chipping. It is possible the airplanes did not last that long. The photos may be of very poor quality. There is a comment in one of the books which indicates the Russian Ground crews took great pride in the appearance of their aircraft. There are many references to repainting in the field. Perhaps they did do a good job. In any case a totally clean airplane just “doesn’t look right”.
Approximate effort involved, just for interest:
PhotoShop issues: 20 hours
Original camo study: 2 hours
Control surface generation, shading, fitting to the skin: 15 hours
Markings: 3 hours
Stencils, cleanup and placement: 4 hours
Figuring out where the wing-root skin came from: 20 hours ( no kidding, 10 days, every night)
Camo skin-wrap: 2 hours
Weathering: 2 hours
Panel lines, screws and rivets: 8 hours
Probably half the time was “learning how”.
I'm not totally happy, I am reaching exhaustion. Thanks for your help and honest opinions...
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Looks good, but it should look more weathered. The paint lines are too fine for a Russian fighter.
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The skin has what looks like a 4-inch overspray, which about matches the photos. The pics here look very hard-edged, for some reason. I'll go back and take a look.
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it looks good but.... u should do a little bit more weathering on the upering then it would look great
keep it up:aok
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You did a great job with the wood weathering, but how about adding some dirt and grime? Might make it look better, but its great as of now too. :)
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Have you checked to see what it will look like with AH squad art?
I'm thinking you might want to adjust the lettering so it isn't covered up.
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Flamboyant...lol i like it :)
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Originally posted by Easyscor
Have you checked to see what it will look like with AH squad art?
I'm thinking you might want to adjust the lettering so it isn't covered up.
Easyscor, how do I check this? I can only get exterior view offline, I think. The squad art does not show up there...
Thanks,
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Take a film in the MA and view it from exterior view.
Of course you must have your squad art in your folder.
Edit: It might be easier to have a squadmate fly a Yak near you. So long as you have the art in your folder it should show on his plane and you can take a screen shot to get the location. I haven't checked the film editor to see if the art shows there.
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I knew it had to be so easy I'd never think of it...
Thanks!
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Don't always trust the suggested color chips in the net. The more-or-less proper colors one would expect with a Southern Front VVS fighter is something like this:
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/ModelGallery/Vill/Yak9T/yak9t_w00_1.jpg)
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/ModelGallery/Vill/Yak9T/yak9t_w00_2.jpg)
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/ModelGallery/Vill/Yak9T/yak9t_w00_3.jpg)
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/ModelGallery/Vill/Yak9T/yak9t_w00_4.jpg)
You will notice that the Yak-9T in the pic is the exact one you're skinning. Take note that the general colors of this aircraft is something simular to RAF desert colors, not the flamboyant neon colors.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Don't always trust the suggested color chips in the net. The more-or-less proper colors one would expect with a Southern Front VVS fighter is something like this:
You will notice that the Yak-9T in the pic is the exact one you're skinning. Take note that the general colors of this aircraft is something simular to RAF desert colors, not the flamboyant neon colors.
Thanks very much for the pictures!
The colors are bright!
The chips are the ones Pilawskii sent me to match paint colors with. They are close to the printed version in the book, see pp 164, 169 and 186. The correspoding B&W photos are on p 187. I would have assumed a more 'sand' color but since the references I have are all that wierd 'mustard' color, I stuck with it.
You can't really trust drawings, either, but he had a shot at the proofs, which is all you can hope for.
Pilawskii did not show a top view for the camo, so I went with the NKAP Template, as far as possible. That wierd loop in the right wing is because of the location used for the wing-root skinning. The pattern on the model is somewhat different.
The current version has been overlaid with 3 layers of darker color at about 30% transparency, so it is actually much dimmer than the original color, but it is still bright.
The general consensus seems to be 'more weathering', so I'll take a look at that next weekend. I thought I'd troll for a few days for comments and suggestions, then start modifying.
I've already seen a mistake in the exhaust I did not notice before, so there are a number of corrections and modifications to be made.
Thanks again,
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glenmorangie perhaps this will help you : http://www.1java.org/sh/Russia.html
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Originally posted by straffo
glenmorangie perhaps this will help you : http://www.1java.org/sh/Russia.html
Excellent reference! Thank you!
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Hey Kweassa... That looks much more realistic than the garish burnt red/yellow combination.
I'd love to see that one.
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Originally posted by Fruda
Hey Kweassa... That looks much more realistic than the garish burnt red/yellow combination.
I'd love to see that one.
And just as I was about to add the sequins!
Seriously, look at the site straffo sent and not how close the 'new' versions of the colors are to what I started with...
I'll do some work on it this weekend. Oh, < he said, back of hand to forehead >, The abuse!!! :)
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It's not your fault that the source was inaccurate. I've had some Merlin engine sounds for my new pack that sounded suspiciously like DC3's (luckily, I found a hi-res Merlin pack that's REAL, like my other engine sounds).
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I reproduced the colors from the website straffo provided using their rgb values for both the new and faded versions of the colors.
Here's how they compare to the chips provided by Mr. Pilawskii:
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Color%20compare.jpg)
The FS numbers for the paints on the sites match Pilawskii's exactly - they probably got them from him. The difference in color is due to?
New colors in Pilawskii's chips are a little brighter, but not a great deal...
I'll do a couple of versions and see how they come out. You've got to admit the faded dark brown looks strange, too.
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the brown in the middle selection looks almost pink to me but hey what do I know my wife just has her degree in interior design and has me looking at paint colors 7 days a week. Geez I wish I liked my job half as much as she likes hers.
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Originally posted by Reschke
the brown in the middle selection looks almost pink to me...
It looks very pink to me on my home monitor, here at work it is much more brown. Here, only the blue of the original colors is irridescent, the light and dark browns ( Pilawskii and web site ) are almost indistinguishable.
I did not color-correct my montor at home, because it should only make a difference when comparing to external chips. I'll play with that this weekend, too.
Maybe the display on other folks monitors is showing the colors brighter, too.
I think I'll turn the light off in AH and see what it looks like. The fuselage in the top shot is a much different color than the wings, which comes from the lighting in the game.
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Different computer setup here at work and that middle brown still appears pink. I see a huge resemblance to mustard in the Pilawski yellow chip as well.
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Thanks to all of you for your help.
Here is the next iteration, opinions, please!
The wings have been repainted with the colors from the web site provided by straffo. This looks much closer to the picture provided by Kweassa.
The ailerons and fuselage have not been changed, for contrast. The sand color looks very much like the one from the web site in photoshop, but is much brighter here. AHII lighting greatly affects the color, as you can see.
Weathering on both colors is a mix of the original and faded colors from the web-site with cloud rendering.
The web-site brown and the original brown are very close. When the base colors look about right, I'l redo the controls. The weathering also looks very good in PS and is washed out here.
Thanks again for the help!
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak9%20mixed%20back%20ttop.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak9%20mixed%20left%202.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak9%20mixed%20top%202.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak9%20mixed%20top%20front.jpg)
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Needs more weathering, dirt, and grime to make it look more Russian. Other than that, it's perfect.
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I wish I hadn't seen this thread. It would've been more fun to have unexpectedly bumped into this plane in the skies of the MA. I'm sure I would have had to scratch my eyes to be sure that I saw what I thought I saw. :lol :)
Looks cool!
Which Yak is that going to be for?
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Originally posted by Fruda
Needs more weathering, dirt, and grime to make it look more Russian. Other than that, it's perfect.
Oddly enough, the photos of Russian birds look cleaner than the others. I found one good photo of the exhaust pattern, more work to do there, controls, fueslage and weathering.
Ah, well, maybe *next* weekend...
Thanks!
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Originally posted by TBolt A-10
I wish I hadn't seen this thread. It would've been more fun to have unexpectedly bumped into this plane in the skies of the MA. I'm sure I would have had to scratch my eyes to be sure that I saw what I thought I saw. :lol :)
Looks cool!
Which Yak is that going to be for?
It's for a Yak-9M, acutally. Since we don't have one of those, I'm hoping HT will let us use it in the MA.
THere should be an earlier post with all the information...
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I hate to say this since it might mean more work of the tedious kind, but it looks like all of the panel lines are the reddish-brown color of the camo. Wouldn't they be grey or whatever color's under the panelling?
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Originally posted by GuyNoir
I hate to say this since it might mean more work of the tedious kind, but it looks like all of the panel lines are the reddish-brown color of the camo. Wouldn't they be grey or whatever color's under the panelling?
Actually, not very tedious because the lines are a separate layer, so colors can be changed easily separately from the background. However, if you look at photos, the lines 'look' black, but they actually are a dark contrasting color of the base color. Black and gray panel lines will look good on blue, green ( in some cases ), silver and gray airplanes but do not look right on brown ones.
What you are seeing is panel lines at 100% transparency, which means as dark as they get. I did not tone them down to make the detail easy to see. As they become more transparent, they will look more like variations of the background color.
Thanks! I hope to have another proof next weekend. Hopefully, the panel lines will fade into the background and be visible, but not stark.
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glenmorangie. the colors are still way too strong in contrast. Like I mentioned when I upped the pics, the color chips provided by internet cannot be always trusted.
This is because most of the people who do the research are either modellers, or base their basic color samples on real life paint. They take pictures and analyze the sample under real light conditions - which makes things look pretty different compared to the simplified, virtual lighting in AH.
Thus, in my own experience, I had to adjust lots of colors to make things look right when making skins for the LW birds. In many cases the suggested colors for the RLM in the net, would just not look right. So, in cases where the colors of an actual model, or a profile pic conflicted with the RLM colors info, I chose to go with profile drawings.
I have no doubt if a real life paint is mixed as in the 'color chip', and applied to a real Yak, it'd look pretty different than compared to the AH Yak with that same colors.
Here's a pic to suggest what I think would be correct colors: the top part is the original, and the underpart is suggested.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/232_1095044152_yaks.jpg)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
glenmorangie. the colors are still way too strong in contrast. Like I mentioned when I upped the pics, the color chips provided by internet cannot be always trusted.
This is because most of the people who do the research are either modellers, or base their basic color samples on real life paint. They take pictures and analyze the sample under real light conditions - which makes things look pretty different compared to the simplified, virtual lighting in AH.
There's no doubt modelling makes you strange... and I agree that the virtual lighting in AH presents challenges. What you see in PS is not what shows up in AH. I've had the same problem with the weathering, which looks great in PS, but does not show up in AH.
Thus, in my own experience, I had to adjust lots of colors to make things look right when making skins for the LW birds. In many cases the suggested colors for the RLM in the net, would just not look right. So, in cases where the colors of an actual model, or a profile pic conflicted with the RLM colors info, I chose to go with profile drawings.
Which, of course is the essence of 'scale effect' on color, it's just much more noticeable here. Over time, I've tried to stop arguing about 'accuracy', because the only reliable reference is an actual photograph and the guy who painted the airplane, and there are problems with both of those ( memory fades, photos don't print in true color, etc. ). I've obviously not entirely succeeded.
I have no doubt if a real life paint is mixed as in the 'color chip', and applied to a real Yak, it'd look pretty different than compared to the AH Yak with that same colors.
Here's a pic to suggest what I think would be correct colors: the top part is the original, and the underpart is suggested.
I'm really making an effort to overcome my 'institutional arrogance', in that the paint chip 'must be' right, which is one of the reasons I asked for help. One factor is there is a style ( for streaks, dirt and panel lines, and so forth ) that folks are used to looking at in AH which may bear no resemblance to reality, so some concessions must be made to style to 'make it look right' as well as to compensate for scale effect and the AH lighting. It's a difficult adjustment to make.
And I've still got to deal with the paint feathering and several other problems not related to the shade of paint.
By the time we get this one adjusted, it should be a pretty neat skin. Then we can work on the Green/Dark Green scheme! ( and eventually, On to the standard Green/Black and all the neat non-standard -9T stuff )
Thanks so much for taking the time provide another example. I should have adjustments by the end of the weekend.
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There's no doubt modelling makes you strange... and I agree that the virtual lighting in AH presents challenges. What you see in PS is not what shows up in AH. I've had the same problem with the weathering, which looks great in PS, but does not show up in AH.
As having skinned many aircraft myself, I fully agree.
Like I said, the bright contrasted colors you are using are clearly intended for either; 1) real life painting, or 2) lighting conditions under which a modeller can photograph a plane and make it look right, or 3) building a mono-tone profile picture for use on the net.
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/ModelGallery/Pilawskii/Yakovlev/yak9_1.jpg)
The above example is what lightings can do to colors. This is a pic of a Yak-9 model featured in Mr. Pilawski's site, which he built himself. It is using the standrad two-tone green camou of the VVS which was extensively used before '43.
Those colors, look nothing like Pilawski's own take on the standard VVS camou.
(http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/BigGuns/YAK9t-w92.jpg)
...
And of course, his suggested colors in that profile pic, looks also hugely ifferent, from the real two-tone green camou which we can observe from reconstructed photos. (both pics are of Mig-3 in the two-tone green, light blue standard VVS camou)
(http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3/captured.jpg)
(http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3/fotoshotdowncr.JPG)
The point is, the color chips serve a specific function for certain instances, but more often than not, it quickly contradicts the "feel" when skinning aircraft.
Which, of course is the essence of 'scale effect' on color, it's just much more noticeable here. Over time, I've tried to stop arguing about 'accuracy', because the only reliable reference is an actual photograph and the guy who painted the airplane, and there are problems with both of those ( memory fades, photos don't print in true color, etc. ). I've obviously not entirely succeeded.
At any rate, the "accuracy" of provided examples are almost 100% hypothetical. Aside from the USAAF or the USN, there's virtually no known real life sample of actual RLM camou or VVS camou - which makes skinners free of contradiction. We skin planes to make it look right!
I'm really making an effort to overcome my 'institutional arrogance', in that the paint chip 'must be' right, which is one of the reasons I asked for help. One factor is there is a style ( for streaks, dirt and panel lines, and so forth ) that folks are used to looking at in AH which may bear no resemblance to reality, so some concessions must be made to style to 'make it look right' as well as to compensate for scale effect and the AH lighting. It's a difficult adjustment to make.
And I've still got to deal with the paint feathering and several other problems not related to the shade of paint.
So, what would have Souther Front VVS camou looked like?
The two colors are respectively referred to as ochre-brown and sand-brown. The Southern Front stretched near the Black Sea area was very different from the lush green steppe lands - often with wide stretches of dirt and very sparse vegetation. While the sand-brown/ochre-brown scheme was itself very rare in the VVS, still, in effect these camou colors were aimed at achieving the same thing as RAF or Luftwaffe Desert Camo.
(http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3/white54.jpg)
(http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3/yellow9.jpg)
The profile drawings here, are of Mig-3s of the 7th IAP VVS stationed at the Black Sea area. The light brown tone used in the two aircraft are the basic examples of the "sand-brown" tone. The darker brown tone, was used in many other fronts as well.
And last, but not the least - the color pics of the Yak-9T that I first linked: those were from Mr. Pilawski's website too. The description of the photo goes;
"Paints and decals supplied by E. Pilawskii."
In other words, Mr. Pilawski himself, thinks the color should look that way. :) The end result is always more important than what a set of data might suggest, and that is my final take on this issue. :)
Thanks for listening!
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i wanna make that next !!!1
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Thanks for listening!
I would say, "Thanks for providing!". Information sharing makes it all better...
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Kweassa, fruda, straffo, reschke ( and whoever else I've forgotten ):
Color modified, camo softened, weather effect increased, exhaust kind-of corrected, no squad art yet, can't check that one.
Left to do: panel line colors??, exhaust streaks, gun muzzle camo color, control surface shading and color?
Let me know what you think...
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak9%20Top.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/YAk9%20right.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak9%20Left.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak9%20Bottom.jpg)
Thanks for all your help,
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Submitted 9/25.
Changed panel lines and control surface shading to gray/black ( thanks GuyNoir ), increased weathering, adjusted colors, corrected stencil color and exhaust stains. The AH lighting washes out the side weathering in this view, it actually matches the top...the files are big to keep detail...
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak 9%20Top.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak 9%20Bottom.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak 9%20Left.jpg)
(http://members.cox.net/gunfighterp51/AHPics/Yak 9%20Right.jpg)
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That looks SWEET! It will definately be my Yak ride when I use one.
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Thanks!
It took a lot of help from others and a lot of work...
It this one flies, the other major camo schemes not in the game are Green/Black/Blue, Lt Green/Dark Green/Blue. There are also several other versions of gray/gray/blue, but they're not much differnt than the standard version, unless ace markings can be found.
I'm looking for actual photos of Yak-9s in the other schemes.
I hope to hear something from HiTech soon, but folks have been reporting delays of weeks. They'll get there when they get there...too many gophers, too few clubs...