Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Westy on December 20, 2000, 02:16:00 PM
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I put the feelers out on usenet and struck pay dirt. When I get the story I'll post it here.
"Yep. Big John Lowell and Adolf Galland. The kicker is how Lowell found out it was Galland in the 190.
At a big Fighter meet somewhere in the 70's (I think), Lowell found out that Galland had flown 190's in the area that the fight had taken place. He then asked Galland if any of his people had told him of a dogfight with a 38 . . blah blah blah. . .
While Lowell is describing the dogfight, everyone else is looking at Galland, who is getting whiter and whiter, and finally explodes with "You sonofasqueak!! You damn nearly killed me there!"
I have this episode in one of my books at home. I'll get the reference for you tomorrow."
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Ok, westy, I dont discuss that.
I simply wonder why was galland trying to turnfight a P38 on the deck. The answer is clear...
a 190 doesnt turn quite like a 109F4 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Galland was a grounded pilot...Roland Garros in WWI was shot down in 1915 as a big ace...when he flew again in 1918 he was killed in less than a month.
Simply put, 1941 tactics didnt quite work in 1945.
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"Simply put, 1941 tactics didnt quite work in 1945."
Oh? Er, unless you're in a jet of course huh?
Don't short change Galland that way. He was an outstanding fighter pilot and he was not stuck in 1941 with 1941 tactics. I'm only posting the story now for the reading. Not to prove any point. I also figured the other topic was going off on a tangent with this sub-discussion in it.
- Westy
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Originally posted by Westy:
"Simply put, 1941 tactics didnt quite work in 1945."
Oh? Er, unless you're in a jet of course huh?
Don't short change Galland that way. He was an outstanding fighter pilot and he was not stuck in 1941 with 1941 tactics. I'm only posting the story now for the reading. Not to prove any point. I also figured the other topic was going off on a tangent with this sub-discussion in it.
- Westy
First, we still dont know it was Galland (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). I am talking on the basis that he was.
Second: A Me262 at 550mph has not many options other than run and run even more. It simply cant turn, and anyway Galland was familiarized with it since Fall'43 when he flew the v5 prototype. You can't even think on turnfighting in a Me262...but you can think on it in a 190D9 if you aren't familiarized with it and you dont know your enemy (how many times had Galland seen a P38 in the air? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
I'd really like to know how many times did Galland fly a 190 before that fight.
Like it or not, grounded pilots get rusty, and air tactics change quite a lot from a year to other. 1941 had a completely different context than 1945, for sure.
And anyway, if he really was Galland, he WAS turnfighting in a 190D9.
And that doesnt seem quite clever. There must be some reason, isnt it?
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Westy
Would be gratefull for the reference.I know the story and have allways wanted to read it for myself, but have never found it.Might be one of those not too many occasions when a tale is so welldefined and welldocumented that it can tell us something FM wise ;=)
danish
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No problem Danish. It's one of those stories that doesn't make you feel like you were there, it couldn't really possibly do that. But it can give one a sliver of a taste for how quite a number of pilots may have felt in white knuckle, deadly aircombat.
-Westy
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Here it is. Thanks to my frirnd Dan aka "+Tiff" from another game/sim/time... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
From "Top Guns" by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan.
(John Lowell's account of his fight with Galland 38 vs 190D9)
"One of our last P38 missions was a flight to protect bombers on
a mission near Berlin. My squadron was flying top cover. We were
attacked from above, out of the sun by sixteen long nosed FW 190s.
I was alerted by a flight leader in our squadron. I saw a flight of four
Focke-Wulfs coming in from too high to effectively fire on my flight
so I quickly slowed the flight as we opened up laterally for a defensive
break and a head on attack that the Germans never wanted when they
were fighting P38s. The lead German flight passed very close over
me with throttles back trying to slow down.
I looked up at the German plane. The pilot was looking down at me
as he eased ahead and close above me into sure death, unless he could
take violent evasive action. He split-Sed and I followed him. He nearly
got out of my sight because the P38 high-speed compressibility problem
kept me from staying with him in a vertical dive. I stayed out of trouble
by doing a vertical barrel roll to pull several Gs and keep my speed under
control. Finally he turned to find me, and I cut across to close with him.
Then the fight started.
He was a fantastic, wild, talented pilot who pulled all the tricks I had
ever seen. But finally I got into a tight Lufbery with him and used my
clover-leaf surprise to get a few strikes. None of them harmed the
power unit. The long-nosed 190 had methyl injection that was usable
for ten-second spurts. Then a pilot had to quit using it for a while
because the twenty-six percent added boost to the engine would burn
it up if used too long. This pilot used his methyl injection very
advantageously to keep me from shooting him down. When his methyl
was gone, he dived to the deck and dropped into a tar pit that was
about 500 feet deep and wide enough to fly a fighter in a tight turn.
I got a few more strikes on him. A portion of his vertical stabilizer and
one wingtip flew off. Unfortunately I was getting low on gas and had to
break combat and head for the North Sea, and England. After two
more circles in the pit I pulled up and flew away to the west. I looked
back over my shoulder to see the FW-190 going the opposite way,
waggling his wings as if to say, "I'll see you tomorrow and we'll go at it again."
A few years ago the American Fighter Aces had their annual reunion at
Maxwell AFB near Montgomery, Alabama. The base commander invited five of the top living German Aces. The first day I arrived in a large hall
where over one hundred Maxwell and AFA officers were gathered. Ace
Gabreski, the highest scoring living USAF ace, who is a friend and a man
that I admire to the hilt, was talking with the German Aces, along with
several other US Aces. One subject was the German attitude and tactics
relating to the P38. Gabby saw me come to the opposite side of room,
waved and hollered for me to come over. He introduced me as the
highest scoring P38 Aces in Europe.
When I shook hands with German General Adolf Galland, I said, "Adolf,
did you ever shoot down a P38?"
He said, "Yah, I shoot down eight."
Then I asked him if any of his pilots told him about a fight in a long
nosed FW190 in late 44 against a P38 that wound up in a huge pit with
water and two crashed P38s on the bottom. I described what had happened and the strikes I got on the long nosed 190, then told him
that when I ran low on gas and had to leave, the German pilot had
waggled his wings as he flew away in the opposite direction. I was
using my hands and looking down as I talked and wasn't watching
Galland. When I looked up, he was pale white.
He said, "You son of a squeak! You dom neer keel me dat day!"
Holy Mackeral! All the pilots that heard our conversation bellowed
their surprise, including me. Adolf wouldn't let me out of his sight
for the rest of the day, asking me how I got the P38 to do what I had
explained was my clover leaf in a tight Lufbery "Fight to the death"
tactic. He wanted to know how I trained our pilots and had many
other questions about tactics."
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I have this story in a book of mine.
They fought in a tar pit.
Galland said to the guy you darn neer killed me.
The us ace was the top eto 38 guy.
The way i see it Galland fought him to a draw when the fight was better for a 38.
I think Galland got into a bad sit. The us guy figured this guy knows his stuff and bugged.
Why? they both figured the odds were bad for them to live.
In AH the 38 would of won.
EYE
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Thx Westy!
The book of course is out of print according to Amazon, but the hunt is in ;=)
danish
PS: first impression is that Galland was too confident, failed to break away in time when he didnt get the kill, and got caught low and slow (anyone recognize this..).
Secondly the Dora seems surprisingly well suited even in this lufbery style fight.
Thirdly the claim is that this Dora is equipped with MW50 "in late 44".
Fourth "Adolf wouldn't let me out of his sight
for the rest of the day, asking me how I got the P38 to do what I had
explained was my clover leaf in a tight Lufbery "Fight to the death"
tactic."Anyone knows this clover leaf maneuver?
danish
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Originally posted by Westy:
The long-nosed 190 had methyl injection that was usable
for ten-second spurts
Ten seconds? WTF!?...its TEN MINUTES!, and the Fw190D9 had FOUR 10 minute boosts available...
Something smells not quite well in that story, will come later and tell why, cause I can be wrong.
But the part about the MW50 "ten second" thing is fiction.
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Here is a comprehensive list of Adolf Galland's kills, with sources included. http://members.aol.com/geobat66/galland/kills.htm (http://members.aol.com/geobat66/galland/kills.htm)
There is only one kill in a 190, a B24 in an "unnoficial mission". There is a B17 in another "unnoficial mission". no info on the plane used in hte latter.
As I thought, no P38s listed. I doubt gallad shot down eight, to be true. Note that the kill list includes the "unnoficial" kills aswell, so it can't be that they aren't listed for that reason.
Westy I'm sorry, I dont believe that story (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-21-2000).]
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I loaned my "Die Ersten und die Letzen" to my friend; Gotta get it back soon and check if there's something about this topic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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No skin off my back RAM. It was in a book and also published in the FighterAces quarterly news letter a couple of years ago. If it is false then it won't hurt my feelings as I didn''t make the story up.
I personaly think the 190-D9 pilot was someone other than Galland. Or perhaps Galland fibbed about eight P-38 kills at that meet.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-21-2000).]
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I had many "violent missions" including my P-38 fight against a long-nose Fw 190 just before our switch from P-38's to P-51's. (note: 364th switched in Aug 44) In 1987 at our American Fighter Aces' convention, I met a top German ace, General Adolf Galland, who remembered that flight. I got many strikes on him but he got none on me. It was NE of Hannover, Germany where he led me into a 500' deep, large tar pit. I got low on fuel and had to leave. He waggled his wings at me and went the other way. Thirty-two U.S. aces heard him say, "You S.O.B., you damn near keel me dat day.
- This was taken from "The History of the 364th FG". Col John Lowell was the CO of my grandfather's fighter squadron, the 384th FS/364th FG (my grandfather flew -38J's and -51D's with this squadron). Lowell scored 7.5 kills, 4 in the P-38.
Don't believe it if you want to Ram. I think it's your loss though.
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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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P.S. When the 364th showed up in England (Mar 44), Lowell was "challanged" to a duel with a Spitfire from a local (Honnington) RAF base. Lowell beat him soundly.
When Lowell was stationed at Wright-Patterson at the beginning of the war, he was a test pilot evaluating the P-38. He knew that plane inside and out.
P.S.S. My grandfather watched the "duel" and remembers it well.
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Thanks Dune! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Off now to find the P-38/Spit story ......
-Westy
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One thing that has come up here can hardly be right:
Dune quotes: "I had many "violent missions" including my P-38 fight against a long-nose Fw 190 just before our switch from P-38's to P-51's. (note: 364th switched in Aug 44)"
Ospreys Aircraft of the Aces says "late july".
Main point is that Doras were first delivered (to JG54) in late september, assuming airfield cover for the 262's of Kommando Novotny from October 12.
One can of course speculate that Galland - General der Jagdflieger - was flying a protype.But as the original text goes; "We were
attacked from above, out of the sun by sixteen long nosed FW 190s".16 Doras in battle in july/august 1944 does not seem likely.
That does not prohibit that the actual fight took place.Strong evidence suggests so - but hardly with the Dora as participant.
danish
Edith: BTW Id like to recommend "In My Sights" by James B. Morehead ISBN 0-89141-634-X (hardcover).A highly readable book about one son af a gun doing first tour in P40 in the PAC arena, second tour P38 in ETO.He has several good observations about the P38, lots of dames, and a few fistfights hehe.
EdithII: while edith NoI RAM posted below.Interesting how the same point (timeframe) can be delivered..
EdithIII: better quote sources on the Dora entering service prime october: "Green Harts First In Combat With The Dora 9" by Axel Urbanke ISBN 0-9660706-1-5.This is ASAIR supported in Caldwell's JG26 War Diary, JG26 being the next unit to recieve the Dora.
[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-21-2000).]
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I had many "violent missions" including my P-38 fight against a long-nose Fw 190 just before our switch from P-38's to P-51's. (note: 364th switched in Aug 44)
First deliveries of the Fw190d9 to the Luftwaffe happened in Mid august/1944. The first recipient was the III/Jg54, based at Oldenburg,FYI that is in NW Germany, near Bremen...
"One of our last P38 missions was a flight to protect bombers on
a mission near Berlin."
Berlin? That is almost 300 miles E-SE from Oldemburg... wow...the first 190D9s delivered to a LW Gruppe were covering Berlin from a bomber attack instead of doing the transition!!!... incredible
and...300miles...what was doing Galland in Oldenburg anyway?...
Sorry, dune, but you have a DETAILED list of Adolf Galland's kills, well documented (read the link I gave before, please) where no P38 is in the kill list of Adolf Galland. When in that story Galland is credited with no less than 8 P38s?...
You say that just when the first gruppe of the Luftwaffe had just received their first Fw190D9s they were used to cover Berlin?...and leaded by Galland?...
As a side note, the first D9s delivered to the Luftwaffe had no MW50 fitted. Almost all the existing D9s that had no MW50 from Factory were retrofitted later on the field, but the first deliveries to the LW had no MW50. Another part of the story that fails.
Lastly, first the story says that the american guy was in a squadron mission...and attacked by 16 Fw190D9s...highly questionable given whenre and when it happened...but still, he ended ALONE in a ONE ON ONE fight vs the 190? where did the rest of his squadron go!? where did the rest of III/JG54 go?...they dissapeared in a moment?
Sorry-I say roadkill. That story is apocryphal and I dont believe it. Too many proofs against it, some of them impassable.
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Originally posted by danish:
That does not prohibit that the actual fight took place.Strong evidence suggests so - but hardly with the Dora as participant.
Just the opposite. That actually PROHIBITS that the actual fight taught place...or you REALLY think that Galland won't know he was in a Fw190A instead a D9?...and his little details about the "10 second MW50 boost"?...and his "the power unit of the long nose 190"?
If the P38 guy comes and starts telling a story about long nosed 190D9s and P38s, and he had been listened by Galland, you really think he would have said "you nearly killed me?" sure as he must had been that he never met a p38 in a 190D9?...
you **REALLY** think he wont have made that fact clear when talking with the P38 pilot in that con?
Does someone here has the book "Fighter General" from Adolf Galland (I don't (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) and I die to have it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))?...I'm sure that a thing like that would be in that book, no kidding, if he was almost killed by a P38 in Germany's best piston aircraft, he would have written it in his memories book, right?.
Sorry to burst the bubble, guys...but the story smelled awful since I read it, but now I am sure that it is untrue. Its pure fiction.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-21-2000).]
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I do think that the meeting between Lowell and Galland at the American Fighter Aces annual reunion at Maxwell AFB near Montgomery, Alabama took place, including Gallands outburst.
The history from Lowell may not have been told orginally as we are presented for it here, fex with Dora's.
But there were many witnesness, called upon again later when it was told in "The History of the 364th FG" (havnt got the book myself).
Galland might have thought about another incident, so the two pilots were actually not talking about the same fight.Galland might have been in a A8, just missjudged by Lowell - and not corrected later.
There are several possibilitiers here, all just illustrating why the good well documented tales about fighter mocks in a closed allmost scientific enviroment (here the tar pit) are so interesting.And why good honest pilots can remember just a few facts wrong, that changes our perception.These men are not liars, they just have difficulties remembering details after 30 - 40 - 50 years, details that seemed less important when fighting for your life.
danish
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Well Ram, on one hand we have a story told by a Col of the USAAF, an ace, overheard by 32 other aces (and probably others), and reprinted in several books. Reprinted to the extant that if it was untrue, or Lowell was lying, any of a number of people would have said so. And on the other hand we have you.
Give you 3 guesses who I believe. Protest all you want, it doesn't change the veracity of the story.
Danish - You're very right. It very easily could have been a 190A8 mis-identified in the fight. And the 364th book is out of print. It took me 4 months and $90 to get it. But since my grandfather was in it, it was worth it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Does somebody know which P38 Lowell was flying?
The J or the L ?
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Dune:
Another book is on the list (wife is going to kill me hehe)
danish
Edith: and congrats on the promotion!
[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-21-2000).]
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Niklas, the 364th flew all P-38J's. From early Mar 44 to late Jul 44.
If you want to know exactly what plane was flown by every 8th AF FG and which pilot flew it, try this website: http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk/index.htm (http://www.pyker.dircon.co.uk/index.htm)
It is absolutely fantastic. And the 364th's gallery has some pictures of my grandfather.
Thanks Danish! Guess I should update my profile huh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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About that P-38 vs. Spitfire duel, also found in the same Top Guns book as the P-38 vs. Fw 190D-9. If my memory serves me right the P-38 dude came in diving to the merge several K feet and the Spitfire did not. Duh, which on is going to win that fight? Only perhaps Brewster Buffalo might be able to easily win in such lopsided fight...
It wasn't about the plane it was all about E. It wasn't about pilot skill it was all about E. If you were really to compare the planes I'd set as co-E sittuation as possible.
// fats
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Here is some more on this that I thought would be nice to share with folks. I recieved a few replies that gave a couple of questionable excuses as to how Galland could possibly not won the fight. None replied they thought the sotry was fake or that Galland wasn't there btw. First excuse was Galland was outnumbered, alone and had to deal with ALL the P-38's. Or also Galland was flying a war torn aircraft from base to base showing how much damage thier aircraft could take (I imagine to boost moral). Well,, I posted the story and that should clear up some misconception.
Anyway.
I got a very nice, surprise response from C.C. Jordan, author and publisher of one of my favorite web sites.. Here is his post for you folks.
-Westy
====================================================
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:30
Subject: Re: Looking for USAAF P-38 aircombat story....
From: Jordan@worldwar2aviation.com (C.C.Jordan)
Organization: Jordan Publishing
>> > Maybe Galland was having hard time with all those extra *guys* and
>> > not with the Lightning per se?
>> >
>> > That would be the most obvious conclusion.
>>
>> The other P-38s did not engage, they flew top cover. However,
>> it is safe to assume that had Galland gotten the upper hand on
>> Lowell, the others would have pounced.
>>
>> My regards,
>> C.C. Jordan
>
>
>
> ... not quite Galland wasn't alone and he wasn't flying a
> "beater" base to base either. -Westy
Thank you for the details. I got the story from notes made by
George Ceuleers who was the eventual commander of the
383rd FS, 364th FG. George was not present during the combat.
He wrote his recollection of the story in the 1980s. The last
time I spoke with George's wife (Eleanor), he was still in a
nursing facility in Denver. His mind was failing him, although
his overall physical health wasn't too bad. I really should
call Eleanor for an update. George had spent years writing
his memiors, only to throw much of it into the trash during
an episode when his mind simply failed him. Very little of his
papers remain and his wife guards what survived very closely.
I don't know if many people know this outside of George's
inner circle, but George had a very nasty feud with Joe Foss
and Tom Lanphier back in the 1970s. George even resigned
from the American Fighter Aces Association over this dispute.
IRRC, George was one of the founding members.
Ceuleers P-38J-15-LO carried the squadron numbers N2-D.
The serial number is unkown (to me) as all existing photos
show that the S/N was painted over by the squadron's white
disk on the rudders.
Lowell's P-51D-20-NA Mustang (44-73045) carried the
squadron numbers 5Y-L.
>
> (btw C.C. Jordan, I enjoy your website very, very much. I've
> been wondering why no updates these past few months and hoping
> all was well.)
Thank you for your concern.
My wife's health has been poor, although steadily improving.
Additionally, I have been doing a great deal of writing with Warren
Bodie, which has reduced my spare time to next to nothing.
Meanwhile, I received a promotion at my regular job (engineering)
that added considerable responsibility and placed a greater demand
on my time.
The web site will be extensively updated between Christmas
and New Years day. I have the week off and will be uploading
a lot of material that has been ready for formatting for some
time now. One piece is especially interesting. This is the story
of the Reggiane RE-2000. The piece was written by Max Cappone
and translated from Italian to English. Several rare photos are
included. I expect to have this article up this weekend.
[snip Lowell's great story]
Over the past several years, I, along with several others, have
tried to break through the myth that the P-38 was somehow
inferior to the Luftwaffe's single engine fighters. One of our
most repeated arguments is that the P-38 was more than a
match for any German fighter IF the American pilot had sufficient
training and experience to extract the available performance
from this operationally complex aircraft. Lowell gives us an
excellent example of how fearsome the Lightning could be.
Moreover, when we take into account that this particular
Fw 190D-9 was flown by one of the Luftwaffe's very best,
perhaps readers will realize that the P-38J was not a fighter
to be under-rated. Especially at lower altitudes where it did
not suffer from compressibility problems. Had Lowell been
flying a P-38L with another 300 hp, boosted ailerons and dive
flaps, Galland may not have avoid destruction until Lowell
ran low on fuel allowing him to escape.
Lowell's story certainly makes it difficult to understand Galland's
P-38 comments that he included in his "The First And The Last".
I have been told by several pilots who knew Galland personally
that much of his post-war remarks and writing were very self-
serving. As I have stated before, if Galland really believed that the
Lightning was no better than the Me 110 before his encounter
with Lowell, he certainly could not have believed it afterward.
It still sounds like sour grapes or at best, faulty rationalizing.
My regards,
C.C. Jordan
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com (http://www.worldwar2aviation.com) http://www.cradleofaviation.org (http://www.cradleofaviation.org)
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I say that the story is not true. I say that Galland was not there.I say that if such a fight had taught place in real life, the 190 would have been an A8 and not a D9.
We have proof that for the time being in that story, the fight could not be a P38-190D9 one. And less with a MW50 190D9. And much less involving 15 190D9s more.
The story **REMARKS** details of the "long nosed 190D9", so the pilot WAS POSITIVE about the identification of the 190.
This alone makes the story be false, for me (as the same starting point of the story is false), but we have more:
First: We have proof that Galland has no P38 kills when in the story he assures he has 8. One thing is to brag and be self-servish in a book...
other is to say such a lie in the middle of a convention of ex-ww2 pilots where respect is at the outmost and useless bragging (more in a general leutenant with 104 kills who needs no motives to brag) can lead to disrespect.
I highly doubt that Galland lied so blatantly in a veterans convention. This is another piece on the story that isnt right. IMO.
Second: There is no such reference in Adolf Galland's memories book. Such a passage wont be forgotten by him, more if we take in account that he describes how was he downed a lot of times...why didnt he say a thing about this one?
Third, if Galland was in that convention, and if we give as true that the fight took place, say , between a P38 and a 190A8 instead a D9, how come that galland didnt make that clear?...A8 was a way worse machine than D9 as we all know, and if he was so self-servish he won't have lost the chance to make it clear. And anyway Galland in the story seems very interested to know everything about that fight, all details of the P38 moves and how were done...
All that need for detail and he lets pass that he wasn't in a 190D9?. Sorry, unveliable.
Fourth: Galland was at the time General der Jagdflieger. Was banned to fly combat missions. Only two of the 104 kills were done while he was banned to fly. That doesnt mean he couldnt be there, that means that it is HIGHLY improbable he was there.
Fifth: I keep on asking where did Galland's wingman go, and where did Lowell's wingman go...and all their respective squadrons too, by the way. Or did they vanish on the air?
Sum all those things and I say that the story is simply not true ,from the start to the end. The combat is fiction, for sure, and unless a present witness assures it to me, I think that the story of Galland getting pale its false too.
I wont mind if it was Galland or not in that story,had it been true. he was downed how many times?...14?...and he was almost killed by James Finnegan's P47D in his Me262.
He was a top notch ace and one I respect the most, but that doesnt mean he could not be beaten. He was beaten more than a dozen times, but I simply say that the story here told can't be true. IMO is an apocryphal story, invented.
I dont slam the P38 as a bad fighter (try to quote me doing it, I've always said I like the plane), and I dont try to steal merit to Lowell. I only say that the story has too many incorrections that simply can't be true.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-23-2000).]
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True Galland had great self esteem, and didnt dwell too much about the past when presented in less glorious lights.As exampels can be his arrogant rejection of the new radio tecnologi in 1939-40 as mentioned by Ulrich Steinhilper in "Spitfire on My Tail" or his rather unpleasant behavior towards the pilots on Sicily and Southers Italy spring 1943 as told by fex Jochen Prien in the great JG53 books or Johannes Steinhofer in "The Last Chance" or a couple of other books.
Guess it could be called image management ;=)
That he was a truly great pilot cannot be disputed, and overall a intelligent and effective General der Jadgflieger, had he had his will would have cost the allied dearly.
His remarks about the p38 in general only reflects the common opinion among LW pilots, again build on a few months of battle in northern Africa and Sicily; theething problems with the new fighter combined with inexperienced pilots.
The other way around you may argue that the respect for the p51 is build on the fact that it entered the arena at a time when the strategic situation was turned upside down, and dominans and victories came cheap (read: cheaper).
Interesting to read Mr Jordans comments;=)I am sure he would be most interested as well in our little new discovery here: that the Fw Lowell met was not (with a high degree of certenty) the Dora ;=)
RAM: we dont know how the history was presented at that Veteran Meeting.The word "longnose" might well have not been said, or misconcepted even.It happens all the time.Myself working in healthcare have noumerous exampels of such misconceptions, ultimatly threatening peoples life or health.We only manage so well because we allways double check ;=)
Yes the Veteran Meeting took place, yes Galland made the outburst.
This makes it higly likely that the fight took place de facto.But no - not in a Dora ,=)
danish
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Galland was a punk anyways... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Heinz Baer and Walther Dhal were much l33ter.
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Galland wasnt a punk.He just liked big cigars ,=)
Agree on Baer.He did extremely well personally under all conditions, was very well liked by lower ranks (big plus in my books heh), and was a very keen geschwader fuhrer.And he wasnt afraid of telling superiors the truth (even bigger plus).I beleve some put Baer as the overall No1 LW ace, in front of Hartmann, Marseille and Co.
Dont know that much about Dahl except personal data ect, however I noticed this short paragraf from the "Black Cross Red Star" vol 1:
"Two Bf 109's managed to take off.The pilots, Hauptmann Gollop and his wingman, Oberleutnant Walther Dahl, pursued the attackers back over the Dnieper and later returned with claims of two I-153's shot down.Both Gollop and Dahl were known to be very ambitious, and at least the latter has been proven to have wildly exaggerated some of his succeses."
And the book seems extremely well documented.
danish
[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-23-2000).]
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Ever been around a group of vets telling war stories? A whole bunch of truth-stretching and general BSing goes on. I would say that with the facts that we know, it was not Galland in the plane, and that plane was not a Dora. The memory may fade after 40 years, but written records do not.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-23-2000).]
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Verra interesting reading.
RAM are you afraid that this anecdote will be cited as a reference to improve the P-38 and downgrade the dora when she's added? We all know that you're the biggest proppoent for bringing the dora to AH. Anytime someone even thinks of mentioning the SpitXIV you're right there screaming in everyone's faces about how the XIV needs to be perked, but can't be brought in before the dora.
I really can't think of any other reason why you're fighting this tale so vehemently. Westy already said it's no nevermind to him, as he dinnae write it, and he even quoted where he got it from, yet you continue to try and argue the validity of it. ::shrug::
(and I still believe the P-38 is a little on the porked side (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
Now where's that Spitfire XIV?
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
Verra interesting reading.
RAM are you afraid that this anecdote will be cited as a reference to improve the P-38 and downgrade the dora when she's added? We all know that you're the biggest proppoent for bringing the dora to AH. Anytime someone even thinks of mentioning the SpitXIV you're right there screaming in everyone's faces about how the XIV needs to be perked, but can't be brought in before the dora.
I really can't think of any other reason why you're fighting this tale so vehemently. Westy already said it's no nevermind to him, as he dinnae write it, and he even quoted where he got it from, yet you continue to try and argue the validity of it. ::shrug::
(and I still believe the P-38 is a little on the porked side (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
Now where's that Spitfire XIV?
LOL you make me laugh.
First of all, we have demostrated that the 190 was not a D9. Period. No discussion there. The fight ,if it happened, was a P38J vs a Fw190A8. And I dont think that the comparison is good for the P38 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). So...I dont know where do you extract that idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now, and to explain it fast and clear. Thee spitfire XIV will be a plane that will do everything...and will do everything very well....its very fast, it accelerates like a G10, it climbs better than a G10, it turns very well, it rolls acceptable for a spit, it has very good visibility, it has awesome firepower, and has a decent range for MA purposes, also.
Modelled unperked, it would be a monster. The best all around plane for the Main Arena. Any newbie will be able to put himself in the cockpit of a XIV and get a lot of kills with few work on it, as the plane can do ANY role (BnZ,E-fighting, TnB) and do it GREAT!.
Now...the Fw190D9 will be a great BnZ plane, just as the P51D is,but even more radical than the pony. Fast,good diver, decent accelerator, decent climber,...The 190D9 is faster, and climbs better than a p51D...but then again, any plane,even a P51D or P47D will out turn it because the 190D9 will be the worse turner in AH, seems that will be even worse than an A8. Most planes here will outclimb a D9. Most planes here will outaccelerate a D9. And a newbie that comes here and gets into a cockpit of a 190D9 will find that he needs to work in his ACM and BnZ skills to actually kill bad guys.
I think that it is clearly seen why I say that one should be perked and the other one not.
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Now on the thread's topic...
I say that I wont have problems at all with that story, if it was true.And I mean it. Galland was shot down a lot of times, and almost killed a couple of times.
But that story is NOT true, at least in part, and I think that is false as a whole. we have proof that the plane was NOT A D9. And we have proof that Galland has NO P38 awarded...And, lastly but not less important, Galland makes NO reference to that fight in his book. When you are about to be killed in a (Seems) so good fight, you write it in your memories. Galland wrote about a lot of his stories in WWII, including his almost death ws the P47D of the Lt. Finnegan. But he says NOTHIGN about a fight against a P38.
You can tell me he didnt want to accept he was beaten in a fight. I wont believe it, but you can use it as an argument...but if it that is true, then why did he say in the convention that the 190 was him?...he could have said he knew nothing about it. Makes no sense.
While I like to hear real war stories, I dont like to hear a false story without making it clear that is NOT true. This story is false, and so I say it.
BTW I'd argue just the same in the other way (I.E. a German pilot talking about almost killing Yeager in "his P51H." when there was no P51H planes operational in the ETO at the time).
I like war stories. True ones. But not stories for kids, thank you.
And now stop the hijack of the thread ok?...thaaaaaaaaanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-23-2000).]
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Where's that story about the P-51 vs Hartmann? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by juzz:
Where's that story about the P-51 vs Hartmann? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
RIght on target...that story as I have read it, is another piece of pure fantasy.
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"Top Guns" by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan
Whoever was looking for it, I have a copy.
I'm cleaning out the house; simply too much stuff collected over the years. This book is in essentially new condition with jacket.
List price ~$22 plus shipping. Be the first on your block. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hia Mr Toad Sir ;=)
Have mailed you (and what an ugly mail address that was hehe)
danish
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Danish,
That is not my real E-Mail, obviously.
After a discussion in the O-Club topic I started getting some "hate mail" from folks who apparently felt they were losing the discussion.
They weren't any more articulate in the E-Mail than they were on the BBS but I didn't think my wife and kids needed to see the trash they were sending.
I see you have no E-Mail either. Perhaps look for me online and we'll swap E-Mails on a private channel?
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Uff.. :=( sometimes one wonders...
"Perhaps look for me online and we'll swap E-Mails on a private channel?"
Thats ok with me, or if you want to get that more room on your bookshelves sooner you can mail me at danish@warbirds.org ;=)
Anyway will keep an eye out for you ;=)
danish