Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: EagleEyes on May 02, 2005, 11:51:43 AM
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I know Coral Sea isnt done yet, but i was woundering if anyone had any ideas on what the next scenario would be?? I am having a blast with Coral Sea so i can't wait until the next one!:aok
Egle31st
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Well EagleEyes.
Its really still a mystery.
The Time you have to wait between now and the next one, might be the longest you have to wait between a Big Four Frame Scenario.
The CM Team have different Ideas, on where it should go next. If you have any ideas please post them up. I would be interested to read them.
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If there is more than one candidate and folks can't decide, put up a list here and have people give opinions. Then pick one and go for it.
This is easy for me to say -- I am always in the mood for more scenarios. :)
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Let me rephrase myself a tad better, We want to iron some issues out on Scenario's themselves before we even start work on the next one, There will be a more formal announcement soon.
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Since I participated in Coral Sea and the one before that, I'd like to comment that I thought both scenarios were very well run....I mean not only on the Frame days themselves, but also the preparation and explanation of the events/rules/scoring etc before the frames started. I salute the entire CM team....many people may have so much fun in the Frames that they lose sight of the massive amount of behind-the-scenes time and effort put forth by you people to make the best thing (scenarios) about AH2 possible.
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Originally posted by Fury
Since I participated in Coral Sea and the one before that, I'd like to comment that I thought both scenarios were very well run....I mean not only on the Frame days themselves, but also the preparation and explanation of the events/rules/scoring etc before the frames started. I salute the entire CM team....many people may have so much fun in the Frames that they lose sight of the massive amount of behind-the-scenes time and effort put forth by you people to make the best thing (scenarios) about AH2 possible.
That needs a bump!
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Absolutely. Many participants probably have no idea how much work it takes to pull off a scenario -- all done for the enjoyment of the participants (which for me means an enormous amount of enjoyment).
For me, scenarios are one of life's bigger pleasures. A grand statement, but true.
CM's, organizers, and designers -- the folks behind the scenes -- have my gratitude in great quantities.
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Agree totally.
CMs
Dont give up.
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Europe would be good - perhaps 1942/43 either Dieppe or perhaps Salerno/Italy....Jugs P38's 190's and G2's G6's
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Well; we've got Libs now...
Ploesti!
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Ploesti :aok
Good year ahead for us Scenario Junkies.
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A European one sounds like a blast. Bombing of Germany perhaps? Large B-17/24 raids with P-47-25 or P-51B escorts against Fw190A5/8 and Bf-109g2/4? Sound good to anyone??
Egle31st
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Pearl Harbor with MOVING Fleets . . .
( Something about CV's and me . .. )
Jordi
( EX-Scenario CM )
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Since Im new to scenarios and relativly new to AH I dont know what has been done and what hasnt.
Personally Id love to see a scenario that uses P40s. ;)
But judgingin from the forums rangoon has been done relativly recently.
What about BoB or north africa?
Tex
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In my not so humble opinion, it doesn’t matter what the event is. Events are the reason I still play this game.
What matter to me is that the map is complete and tested before the event is designed; that flight times for all aircraft/vehicles involved are reasonable. (I can hear the CMs roll their eyes now.)
That all the important objects such as bridges, spawn point and rearm pads are each tested.
A preliminary Arena setup is in place and tested, including radar and vis range to name two.
That object hardness is appropriated for the least effective bomb loads.
In other words, the map should get some play in the CT and/or some snapshots BEFORE a scenario is designed.
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Originally posted by Easyscor
In other words, the map should get some play in the CT and/or some snapshots BEFORE a scenario is designed.
That is like asking a programer to DOCUMENT his code before he releases it !
:)
But yes - the more STRESS TESTING a terrain and setup can go through BEFORE Frame #1 the better.
If this means pushing BACK an event a week or 2 or 4 to make sure all is right and ready so be it.
Good points Easy.
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:) You of all people will remember Ruhr valley, but I can't think of one except for Coral Sea that had it right.
The only place SilverFox messed up was the scoring. Everything else was right on, he did a great job. Now if the CM team can get the level bombers right instead of throwing them in for bait... :)
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SF had the scoring right. No one expected a blowout, that had to be addressed, and it was addressed well. There was no mess up. I was on the design team, as was Filth the CO of Zulu, no where did any of us expect the outcome that came to pass.
CS was supposed to be a tie, one side should get a tactical victory while the other got a strategic victory, as was the real battle.
It is utterly impossible to predict the outcome of anything other than a pre-determined computerized event. When people are figured into the equation, then all bet's are off and you do the best you can, and handle the oddities.
Mess up? Not by a long shot. The event was fantastic in design, and every conceivable possibility accounted for and addressed with a solution.
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I would agree on Coral Sea.
I was involved in a very small part of terrain testing, and an awful lot of getting the CV hardness/ guns set correctly.
Everything, but luck was taken into account.
Frame 1 Team Zulu still had the Shoho floating, and landed LVT's in Frame 2 to take Port Morseby. We were just a couple buildings and a few planes short of being able to make that happen.
In Frame 3 we were just about a bomb shy of sinking the Shoho...
ROC, and his Team had a better strategy, training, and a bit of luck ;)
Looking forward to the next scenario, after Team Zulu has their way with ROC and Team R-Alpha in Frame 4 tomorrow :aok
SALUTE!
Newman
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lol, I wasn't trying to step on anyone’s toes.
Now that I reread what I wrote, what I meant to say was Coral Sea had less problems, then any scenario I’ve participated in. The only fault I could find was the scoring, everything else good.
You guys were happy with the original scoring, ok.
You know I was raising Cain about it early on before frame one and emailing excel spreadsheets; not because it tended to give a tie but because it always gave a tie, even with a blowout. After frame two that was untenable and the scoring system had to be changed to reflect the situation on the ground.
IMO Zulu could have won frame two except for a couple of missteps but that's a subject for another thread.
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Yes.. Mistakes were made.. but second guessing can go on for ever!
The beauty of Coral Sea is that there is no way to directly defend Port Morseby. All the defense/ offense has to be from a bit of a distance. That, and the known start point for the Shoho.
It was set up to be a draw, and I wish it had been...
Kudo's to team R-Alpha!
SALUTE!
Newman
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Originally posted by Easyscor
:) You of all people will remember Ruhr valley, but I can't think of one except for Coral Sea that had it right.
The only place SilverFox messed up was the scoring. Everything else was right on, he did a great job. Now if the CM team can get the level bombers right instead of throwing them in for bait... :)
I have to agree with you on this one Easy. The plane attrition score was out of sync with the ship attrition, which obscured a clear tactical victory. This was caused by a chain reaction rooted in the large registered player base that caused us to rethink the numbers of rides, planes and squads. Although we met every day in the design forum, this was one item that I simply didn't address.
It does me good to hear all the positive comments folks. Yes, it was a lot of work, but it was a lot of fun, and something that I've wanted to do for years. :)
Hope we have a good turn out today :aok
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Couldn t we have a battle of britan scenario in between if there is so long till the next scenario?
I loved the bob scenario.
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Originally posted by ROCrats
Ploesti :aok
I second that.
Eighth Airforce Berlin raid scenario or BoB would be choice #2/3.
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To me the biggest problem any scenario faces is ATTENDANCE.
There does seem to be a CORE of dedicated scenario players here in AH.
And there is a dedicated core base of players who are willing to step in and LEAD in a command position ( CO or XO or GL ) and or help design and test a scenario design.
But that is a small group compared to the total number of players needed to fill out all the expected rides in each frame.
On average for MOST AH Scenarios you start out with a bunch of people on Frame #1 and each following frame the total # of pilots including walkons gets smaller and smaller.
This drop off in players can affect the whole setup and balance of the event.
The good thing is that as more and more QUALITY Scenarios are designed and run it draw in more and more NEW Pilots.
Hopefully this will ENLARGE the CORE Base of Scenario players so that the designers of these events can come up with a total # of pilots needed to make the scenario work according to thiner plans and they can feel assured that most of those pilots will stick it out till the end.
We as the players who enjoy scenarios have to make it our job to help out in any way to make each scenario work.
That means we need to HELP the new scenario players and make it an experience that draw those new players back for the next scenario.
That means we need to accept that we may have to fly a plane that is not our first choice to HELP OUT THE TEAM.
That means some people may need to step up and fill a command roll to HELP OUT THE TEAM.
If everyone who signs up for a scenario expects to be able to just show up on frame day and fly nothing will ever get done. The MORE Pilots who participate even in a small way the weeks and or months leading up to frame #1 the better the scenario experience will be for them and for all involved.
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Who left this soapbox in the middle of the floor?!?
:D
Commitment to making the frames enjoyable to more individuals than just yourself is the philosophy that everyone needs to take. A scenario doesn't have the "all about me" feel, which is why they are appealing in the first place.
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Jordi
Well Said.
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Originally posted by Fury
Since I participated in Coral Sea and the one before that, I'd like to comment that I thought both scenarios were very well run....I mean not only on the Frame days themselves, but also the preparation and explanation of the events/rules/scoring etc before the frames started. I salute the entire CM team....many people may have so much fun in the Frames that they lose sight of the massive amount of behind-the-scenes time and effort put forth by you people to make the best thing (scenarios) about AH2 possible.
Ditto what Fury said. I've played in both Rangoon and Coral Sea, and had a blast in both!
As far as new scenarios, I grew up reading the story of the 8th air force bombing raids on Germany. I think it would be cool to do a side switching scenario based on a massive bomber raid to a specific target, with the appropriate fighter escort, with the Luftwaffe trying to stop them. Just a short, 2 week game - one week your're the Allies, the next the Luftwaffe, and vice versa.
Allies points are for bombs hitting the target, and less importatntly for German a/c shot down. German points are for preventing the damage to the target, just as in history.
A sky full of B-17's (or B-24's) with their escort P-51's weaving above them......the 109's and 190's being scrambled to intercept when radar picks up the incoming raid........
tension builds.....will they get there on time?.......will the escorts shoot down the Luftwaffe? Will they makwe it thrut he bomber formation's guns? (maybe for this scenario decrease the lethality of the bomber's guns a little?)
I think it would be cool!
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SKJohn,
I'm working on one to present to the CM team that is just that.
I'm looking at a long flight from England to Russia, with a delivery on Germany in route. Then, the return flight next frame, bombing again, returning to England.
Still a way to go on it, but that is the premise.
There are some Very good Euro Bomber missions ahead for us all :)
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Originally posted by SKJohn
As far as new scenarios, I grew up reading the story of the 8th air force bombing raids on Germany. I think it would be cool to do a side switching scenario based on a massive bomber raid to a specific target, with the appropriate fighter escort, with the Luftwaffe trying to stop them. Just a short, 2 week game - one week your're the Allies, the next the Luftwaffe, and vice versa.
Allies points are for bombs hitting the target, and less importatntly for German a/c shot down. German points are for preventing the damage to the target, just as in history.
A sky full of B-17's (or B-24's) with their escort P-51's weaving above them......the 109's and 190's being scrambled to intercept when radar picks up the incoming raid........
tension builds.....will they get there on time?.......will the escorts shoot down the Luftwaffe? Will they makwe it thrut he bomber formation's guns? (maybe for this scenario decrease the lethality of the bomber's guns a little?)
I think it would be cool!
We did just that as a scenario last year. I was the US CO. For frame #1 we had 60 Bomber pilots up at take off. Taht gave us 180 total B17's in the air counting the drones. It was an amazing experience. We also had special target tiles so we were countiong how many bombs hit that complete 1x1 square mile target tile to come up with a % of bombs on target to help determine part of the overall score.
The bomber guys took off 15 mnis early to help get to alt and form up and we had some landing 3+ hours later !
Jordi
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Originally posted by ROCrats
SKJohn,
I'm working on one to present to the CM team that is just that.
I'm looking at a long flight from England to Russia, with a delivery on Germany in route. Then, the return flight next frame, bombing again, returning to England.
Still a way to go on it, but that is the premise.
There are some Very good Euro Bomber missions ahead for us all :)
Wow - I must be in tune with ESP or something!
Jordi - sorry, but I missed that one. I've been doing AH for 1 year now, and the first 6 months had no clue what a "scenario" or special events area was. I thought the "SEA" was something just for navy fighters.
That leads me to thinking that there are probably a lot of new players now that are in the same boat I was a year ago. Maybe something should be done to increase the awareness of the scenarios - not only that they exist, but how to get to them, etc......?
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Originally posted by SKJohn
Wow - I must be in tune with ESP or something!
Jordi - sorry, but I missed that one. I've been doing AH for 1 year now, and the first 6 months had no clue what a "scenario" or special events area was. I thought the "SEA" was something just for navy fighters.
That leads me to thinking that there are probably a lot of new players now that are in the same boat I was a year ago. Maybe something should be done to increase the awareness of the scenarios - not only that they exist, but how to get to them, etc......?
Trust me - we have tried many a ways to get the word out !
The problem is maybe 90% of the paying cusotmers never come to the forums - and that is where most of the talk is about current and cup coming special events.
Now if HTC had an automatic email list that new people get signed up to and they get sent maybe monthly emails about what is happeneing and the player would have to opt-out of that list we might get more people interested and in the know about the events.
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Commitment to making the frames enjoyable to more individuals than just yourself is the philosophy that everyone needs to take. A scenario doesn't have the "all about me" feel, which is why they are appealing in the first place.
Other than the TA, my first online flight was in a scenario on MACAW years ago now!
My 3rd flight in AW3 was a scenario. I hadn't fully set up my stick yet, and it took a few minutes to figure out the way point thing.. I did get a couple kills though, and violated the rules by grabbing a second plane.. Something back in my cranium says Culero was involved in that one.. I was a walk-on.. Midway.. I think.. circa 1999..
Since then, Scenarios have been one reason I stick around. Scenarios have been a source of unending discovery for me!
My outlook is that it gives you a chance to learn a plane that you may not pick up in the MA because it's likely a deathtrap and won't help your score. In a scenario, there are few planes to choose from, and expanding you palate is part of it, for me.
Without my experiences in scenarios, I never would have flown an ME110, TBM, 190F8, B-17, JU88, Spit1, F4F, F6F, F4U, La5/7 and YAK9.
Any day, in the MA, I'll take a ME110, TBM, 190F8, B-17, JU88, Spit1, F4F, F6F, F4U, La5/7 and YAK9. I love those planes, and will happily run their strengths I've learned in scenarios :aok
SALUTE!
Newman
Who would like to see a scenario that includes a bit of ground attack planes, like the P47, 190F8, 110, IL2, or Typhoon..
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It also helps if people talk about scenarios (especially when they are ready for sign up) in the main arena. If each squad had some folks who love scenarios, that would help a lot -- they would help get the word out.
It is amazing to me that there are squads out there that don't know what a scenario is. We need to talk it up -- recruit people into the awesome world of scenarios.
I have a web site geared toward promoting scenarios (lots of screen shots, AAR's, descriptions of what scenarios are like, and so on). People can feel free to use it as a promotional tool. It's at http://www.electraforge.com/scenarios
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Hey Brooke..
I'm ready for an official declaration of Zulu surrender to be signed at the Bremerton Naval Ship Yard..
Might add a new dimention to it all.. as much as I hate to be on the loosing end of ANY scenario :(
I've got a gig this weekend, but I'm open next. Let's talk amongst ourselves ;)
SALUTE!
Newman
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Originally posted by Schaden
Europe would be good - perhaps 1942/43 either Dieppe or perhaps Salerno/Italy....Jugs P38's 190's and G2's G6's
I did a Dieppe outline once upon a time. I have it stashed in a newsgroup somewhere.
Typhoons -vs- 190's,
LV's storming the beach, panzers defending,
etc...
afool
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How about this for MA Exposure, let's do it, in the MA :)
(Points to Newman) He brought it up :)
I'm ready for an official declaration of Zulu surrender to be signed at the Bremerton Naval Ship Yard..
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Actually, Brooke and I had spoke about meeting up at the Bremerton Ship Yard a while ago.
Just before we ended up on opposite sides of a scenario.
ROC, I don't think the MA cats would understand what's going on, and would try killing all of us in search of a few extra perkies ;)
SALUTE!
Newman
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That really would be fun.
I haven't been to Seattle area in Years!
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Newman, that sounds great! I'll send you some e-mail.
Well, ROC, you are welcome to stay at my place in the Seattle area if ever you visit. We've got a couple spare bedrooms. Newman and the 327th folks all have an open invitation, too.
One thing of interest in the Seattle area coming up, in late June through early July, the Collings Foundation B-24 and B-17 will be at various locations around the area. For a small fee, they let you crawl around inside anywhere you want to go. For $400, you can get a 30 minute ride in either (where they let you go all around inside it during flight). Definitely awesome to tour the skies of Seattle in the world's only remaining flying B-24. The planes are at the Museum of Flight near Seattle July 1-5.
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I think one of the problems is the same problem that is prevelent in the MA; scoring. Once a single side begins to fall in the scoring process (or get stuck in rides they don't like because of it or rules changes during the scenario) the individuals involved don't log on.
Scenarios need to move away from the scoring process and encourage the player to fall into 'the role' and enjoy the enviornment.
People need stories to promote this role, like the write ups we did after most of the old scenarios to keep them interested. Otherwise, its just a bigger MA mission with fewer different types of aircraft involved.
Originally posted by jordi
On average for MOST AH Scenarios you start out with a bunch of people on Frame #1 and each following frame the total # of pilots including walkons gets smaller and smaller.
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I have to agree with CPorky.
Scenarios dont need scooring. They do need objectives that need to be completed but they dont need to generate scores.
Scenarios should have supplies that carry over between frames. The number of planes should be set at forhand for the entire scenario and max number per frame should be set.
So say that each side has 50 Fighters and 30 bombers for the scenario and can use 20/10 per frame. If the side looses 15 fighters and 8 bombers in one frame then it has 35 fighters and 22 bombers for the remaining frames.
That and complete or not complete on objeectives is enough.
Tex
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
I have to agree with CPorky.
Scenarios dont need scooring. They do need objectives that need to be completed but they dont need to generate scores.
Scenarios should have supplies that carry over between frames. The number of planes should be set at forhand for the entire scenario and max number per frame should be set.
So say that each side has 50 Fighters and 30 bombers for the scenario and can use 20/10 per frame. If the side looses 15 fighters and 8 bombers in one frame then it has 35 fighters and 22 bombers for the remaining frames.
That and complete or not complete on objeectives is enough.
Tex
It’s more complicated then that. Call me maJoe. You just told me that if I signed up for fighters, I could be one of 15 guys not flying the second frame. Not only that but my side was whipped last frame and now we suffer an even greater handicap. maJoe won't be coming back, ever.
The trick is to make it fun whether your side is winning or loosing so you want to come back each frame, that’s why the players should always have their rides.
One thing I liked in Coral Sea, was the extra rides in the hanger to make up for missing participants. That was a new element that could be used to balance team numbers when people don’t show up and encourage players to come back in the later frames with a chance of getting extra rides. I wish we had some automatic way of tracking it to help prevent rules violations during a frame.
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Sorry to hijack this thread but Brooke brought it up first!
If you like bombers and have the money, if you EVER get a chance to ride in one you must do it!
I had a ride in 2001, my descriptive post is here (http://hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16233&highlight=raiders).
I posted pictures in this thread (http://hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45103&highlight=raiders) but don't waste your time there...the links are dead and after so many new hard drives I'm going to have to dig up the pictures and re-scan them.
It was SO COOL and definitely the flight of a lifetime.
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End of June is my Grandmothers 89th Birthday, and I might just go to Portland for a few days.
Hmm....
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I have had the pleasure of riding The Collings Foundation B-17 "909" a total of 6 times. Two paid rides around Reno, and 4 rides from Reno to the next stop, where my loving wife drove to haul my sorry butt back home.
The B-24, previously known as "The All American" from 1989 to 1997,and "The Dragon and his Tail" from 1998 to 2004, has been redone for this years tour. It is now in the configuration of the 467th Bomb Group, 760th Bomb Squadrons famous "Witchcraft", the original of which amassed a total of 130 missions without a loss or injury of a crewman, or without turning back due to mechanical problems.
Yup I am a Collings Foundation Volunteer, and can truthfully say that after each and every ride in those planes I always say the same thing..."That was THE MOST fun I have EVER had with my clothes ON!
http://www.collingsfoundation.org
Sorry, Brooke and Fury got me going...
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The most important aspect to any scenerios are the available planesets. At this time we are handicapped.
I have flown in almost every scenerio over the last 4 years or so and have enjoyed them very much, but we continue to do the same ones over and over due to planeset limitations.
Now I realize that there are many other more pressing things on Dale's plate but until we get more planes, both early war and late war, the designers dont really have alot to work with.
Sure we can do Germany vs heavy bombers again but wouldnt it be nice to do Norway, Deippe, France, Pearl, any late war Pacific engagement, Finland, the Spanish Revolution, ect?
Dont get me wrong, I await the next scenerio like all of us but we need more planes.....
a few that come to mind.... Betty, Judy, Jack, DO-17, HE-111, PE-2, Mig-1, SM-79, I-16, MS-406, G50, KI-43 Oscar, LaGG-3, Ki-44 Tojo, Buffalo, ect.... and it would also be nice to get some more weapons choices for the planes we have..... no 37 mm option for the Stuka is one, a 75mm for the b25....
Oh while we are at it.... some other ships like Jap CV's, any real BB's, CA and CL's for Italy, Japan, Russia, GB and USA.....
HEHEHEHE pretty large wish list I know but maybe, just maybe we get 3 or 4 and can do something new as far as scenerios go.
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Here Here !
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Great Ideas, Everyone.
Afool, I havnt forgot about Dieppe. :D
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Originally posted by CPorky
I think one of the problems is the same problem that is prevelent in the MA; scoring. Once a single side begins to fall in the scoring process (or get stuck in rides they don't like because of it or rules changes during the scenario) the individuals involved don't log on.
Scenarios need to move away from the scoring process and encourage the player to fall into 'the role' and enjoy the enviornment.
People need stories to promote this role, like the write ups we did after most of the old scenarios to keep them interested. Otherwise, its just a bigger MA mission with fewer different types of aircraft involved.
Not that I'd agree with Steve on anything about scenarios :)
But going back to our AW days what he's describing is what made the events fun. Folks getting into the history and playing the 'role' so to speak.
Yeah as Jordi could tell ya, I'm one of the worst offenders at this (+Tiff btw Jordi) HAd to have an accurate name for the group, instead of some number, flight names, fill the boards with images and stories. Get people into the mood that way. Combat reports in the right format for the time,
Even went so far as to do YANK covers for a few of the scenarios. This one still on the HD for an old AW Scenario "Carthwheel" where Porky and Corky flights made up the 80th Headhunters.
Jeez I'm having flashbacks :)
That and you guys need to throw a weekday frame in there for us poor saps who work both weekend days
Dan/CorkyJr
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/810_1116138505_yankcover3.jpg)
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Operation Bodenplatte.
2 weeks before and 2 weeks after new year
p38, typhons,tempests, spits14, spits 9, p47, p51 b&D, b26,b17,A20, t34, lvt , m3, (fireflys?)
vs
190 d9, a8,f8,bf 262, bf163, pzkw4, pzkw6,m3 ju88, bf110g2, bf109 g8, g10
hmm?
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Originally posted by Guppy35
But going back to our AW days what he's describing is what made the events fun. Folks getting into the history and playing the 'role' so to speak.
I couldn't agree more +Tiff (sorry can't get used to you being a tropical fish :D) - that is something I really miss from AW scenarios. Occasionally some people have tried to do similar here, but with such a lack of response to their efforts they have not usually continued, and I think its a great shame. I always enjoyed reading your stories and definitely had a greater sense of taking part after reading them. The stories and the hilarious Briefing Room encounters are two elements of scenario playing which really made me feel I was involved in 'something special' and wanting to come back for more. :)
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There is one big reason why I dislike scenarios like this; we can't model one side having better trained pilots with more hours behind the controls. It quickly becomes a 'what-if' question and those turn into a screaming match on the scenario forums.
(to give the paragraph above some validity) The results from 'Baseplate' were so poor that one Allied aviator had said that the Germans at that point 'couldn't even hit parked aircraft, it was pitiful' (mind you, I'm paraphrasing). How can you recreate this, much less a sneak but still scheduled attack? I think Bodenplatte would make a better Snapshot than a full length scenario...
Originally posted by ramzey
Operation Bodenplatte.
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I'll never forget that B17 test pilot and combat pilot (that had end-stage cancer) we had at work one time, he was dismayed we were enjoying a game that trivialized their struggles during the war but was very enthusiastic when I told him of the scenarios. As he told me, "At least people will know what happened after I'm dead and gone."
I ended up bringing in pictures of the Longbow scenario in for him and I think it added some satisfaction during those last days of his life.
Win or lose, I'd like to stay in the 'role' and allow others to examine what happened during the period. I think too many rely on the 'winning' of the scenario and and less on the historical enviornment.
Originally posted by Guppy35
Folks getting into the history and playing the 'role' so to speak.
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It's very difficult to build an historically accurate scenario. The whole premise is re-creating what happend, which means there is no ability to "win or lose" or try to come up with a better plan. There is nothing creative about it, and I feel it best to simply watch the Discovery channel and see what happened as opposed to spending months to do exactly as they did during the actual battle.
There is no challenge in this. The whole ground pounding, adreneline charged motivation behind a great scenario is to take, as close as possible, the conditions that were upon them at the time, and try it another way, or duplicate the winning strategy, or whatever you can do to immerse yourself in the event to "make a difference" and make it yours.
We just came off a very enjoyable Coral Sea event where Nothing really went down the way it did in the original fight other than the original goal.
Granted, we could have dispatched an historically accurate attack pattern, targeted only the ships that were actually damaged, sunk only those that were sunk, and ended the event reliving history as it were. Then, for all the enjoyment that this suggests, switch sides and do it again from the other point of view.
Does not, in any way, shape, or form, sound even remotely enjoyable.
Coral Sea, to me, wasn't about any score. Don't know what the score was, Don't care. I was the CO and the last thing I know is what the end score was. The objective was clearly to win. Win by taking out the other side, regardless of what the score said. A few hundred points means Nothing to a Carrier sinking.
I did, however, fully enjoy the planning, strategizing, wondering what the other side was going to do. How much time and energy will really be spent flying in an event where you Know exactly where the other side will be, and the outcome of the fight?
Historically accurate or what if. The "what if" wins hands down. We take the Historically Accurate conditions, and add real people to it, and see what we can do with it.
I think too many rely on the 'winning' of the scenario and and less on the historical enviornment.
The historical environment WAS winning. That was the point of the fight to begin with, no one went up to play fair and make sure the sides were balanced. They went up to kick the crap out of the other side. How can we be exposed to the historical accuracy of the experience if we can't chose what we would do in the situation?
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Originally posted by ROCrats
I did, however, fully enjoy the planning, strategizing, wondering what the other side was going to do. How much time and energy will really be spent flying in an event where you Know exactly where the other side will be, and the outcome of the fight?
I would have to agree with ROC.. Being on the stinky side of the stick in Coral Sea, Team Zulu HQ staff spent a lot of time working out a strategy that may have worked.. but it didn't :(
That, by no means made it a bad scenario for me. It was more of a learning experience, and it's experience I will take to the next scenario. I just wish killshooter was off in the MA so I could shot ROC down just once.. ;)
Hey ROC, I'm less than a 2 hour drive from Portland.. Be happy to pick you up and drop you off "somewhere" near Bremerton..
:aok
SALUTE!
Newman
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Think you gents are on the same side :) No one is saying the outcome should be pre-ordained.
It's just being able to do it well enough that the history can be a part of it, while the outcome can still be in doubt.
Mustangs taking the Forts and Libs deep can let someone really get caught up in the role, while not neccesarily meaning the LW fighter drivers have to lay down and die.
38s over Rabaul vs th JAF is the same thing.
For some of us, part of the fun is learning all we can about the Group we're pretending to be and applying it to the scenario flying. It sure helps when those moments come about where you get sucked into the computer/cockpit and it starts to feel as real as your imagination can make it feel.
It doesn't happen often, but I can still vividly remember those times where it did and for me that makes the scenario experience about the best thing going.
Dan/CorkyJr
Now about those weeknight frames :)
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Great Ideas, Everyone.
Afool, I havnt forgot about Dieppe. :D
OK, found it...
This was written over two years ago, when I was actually playing Ace's High.
Dieppe "Operation Jublee"
The falled invansion on Aug 19, 1942.
A proposed scenario for Ace's High.
********************************************
It has all the elements and at this point of time, with the few tanks and no ground warfare, in AH, it's as close to D-Day as you can get.
A battle fleet - landing vechile launch and cover.
No Aircraft carriers
Landing craft and tanks.
A large scale air battle.
Basic idea of this scenario:
The British covering the fleet, landing vechiles and close air support.
The Germans trying to sink the fleet and landing craft, plus drive the Canadians in the channel.
The Aircraft,
British;
Boston III, Spit Mk V, Spit Mk IX, Typhoon, Hurricane Mk 1 and IIc, 24 B-17's
German;
Ju88 A-4, Fw190 A-5* and Bf 109 F-4
* only the A-4 was avalible, but there is no A-4 in AH.
"Now that the Ju87 been added that could figure in, remember this was written over 2 years ago"
Landing Craft;
LVT A2
Tank;
British;
LVT A4*
* there is no Chruchill Mk 1 in AH, the Chruchill was waterproffed for the landing at Dieppe, LVT A4 makes a good sub. Chruchill has a 2 pounder in turrent, 3 pounder in hull, plus heavier armor.
German;
I would be inclined to use the LVT A4 as a Panzer sub. To keep the lack of armor plate on equal footing. The Chruchill's armor was equal to Panzer armor at the time.
Shore Battery;
use what is in AH now.
PT Boats
Axis: E-boats. Scout recon.
The invasion force was discovered by E-boats in1942.
Air/Sea Rescue
Allied: Air/Sea Rescue
Launch the LVT's in the dark to similate the actual landing, just before/ at dawn. Fleet than withdraws to a safe distance if so desired by CO.
Objectice based.
Allied,
Land and Hold the port. Protect the fleet with air cover from
England.
Axis,
sink the fleet, drive the Canadians back into the channel.
This will be a historic scenario.
The classic Spitfire / Typhoon -vs- FW190 fight.
Just like it was in 1942.
Four frames.
2 frames than a side switch.
Frame 1
Allied: landing and taking the port. Protect the fleet.
Axis: Try and stop the landing, break the air cover, sink the fleet, put back the Canadians.
Frame 2
Allied: Cover the Canadian withdrawl, protect the fleet.
Axis: same as frame 1.
Map
Europe, A-3 (old AH1 map) looks like Dieppe. Some editing would be needed to place German airfield and shore batteries.
Finally...
I am aware that this is by no means a "finished" scenario. It is only a set of ideas for a scenario. All input, ideas, comments and concerns are welcome....
****************************************************
afool
Flame away...
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Is it possible to regurgitate old AW or Warbirds scenarios, or would it take just as much time to adjust them to AH as it would to come up with something from scratch?
Is the CM team looking for volunteers, and if so is there a 'job description' for the team?
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I used my old AW Midway scenario as a basis for the AH Midway scenario I designed.
I think the same goes for a Pearl scenario or Ploesti - take all the good parts from the AW version and incorporate all the new good stuff from AH - Like moving fleets for Pearl or B24's for Ploesti.
Not sure if they are recruiting new CM Members or not ?
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Originally posted by afool
OK, found it...
This was written over two years ago, when I was actually playing Ace's High.
OK,
Here another outline I wrote / submitted in November 2002,
Remember, it was written awhile ago and does not include the plane that is in AH II now.
12 O'clock High
A proposed scenario for Ace's High.
*********************************************
12 O'clock High is a proposed bomber scenario. You may than likely see things you have seen in other bomber scenarios. I'm not trying to rip-off ideas, there are only so many ways to do one of these. What I'm trying to do is write a scenario that uses as many different aspects of Ace's High as I can without requesting new planes, features (except for Air/Sea rescue) and
maps. Everything (almost) in this scenario is already "in game".
Frame structure;
Four frames, 3 daylight, 1 night time. The night frame could become daylight if I appears too hard to do or keep track of. Two differnet maps, frames 1 and 2 europe, frames 3 and 4 bigweek. Reason for two differnet maps...
Neither has all I wanted. Europe has targets that are not deep. Think 1943.
Bigweek has deeper targets. Think 1944-45.
Plane set;
A progressive plane set. (don't say rotating) Each frame a later plane set will become active starting with 1943. This way almost all of the American, British and German fighters, except early war will be only be used as dead cap in frame 1, (see Primary Life and Dead Cap). Targets for each frame will be deeper as escorts gain range. Escorts will not be allowed to go all the way to the target in frame 1 and frame 2.
Frame 3 is night time.
No fighter escorts. Bombers can be used as escorts in frame 3. (Mossie and
A20-G) Which means every allied pilot will be flying some type of bomber in this frame.
Frame 4 will allow fighter escort to go all the way to the target.
Frame 1
Allied; P-38L, P47D-11, Spitfire V, B-17
Axis; Bf109G-2, Bf110C-4b, Fw190A-3
Frame 2
Allied; P47D-25, P51-B, Spitfire IX, B-17
Axis; Bf109G-6, Bf110G-2, Fw190A-5
No drop tanks, rockets or gun pods allowed
Frame 3
Allied; Mosquito MkVI, Lancaster MkIII, A20-G
Mossies are to be pathfinder/escorts. Just as they were used in real life.
A20-G's can be used any way the Allied Co wants. Escorts/bombers/low level
pain in the asses. (real life again)
Axis; Bf110G-2, BF109G-10, Fw190A-8
All Axis planes are to carry underwing pods. Rockets for the 110's and 190's.
Cannons for the 109's
Frame 4
Allied; P51-C, P47D-30, B-17
Final perk planes, Spitfire MkXIV, Tempest
Axis; BF109G-10, Fw190D-8,
Final perk planes, Ta152H-1, Me262A-1
Drop tanks allowed for both sides.
Perk Rides;
The higest scoring living pilots (those not KIA) may be recruited for perk planes and moved to a perk plane group. You die, you loose perk ride. You don't score well, you could be replaced by someone who did. Perk planes will be a plane from the next frames plane set. This will be limited to 24 fighter pilots per side. You can decline a perk ride. (say if you wanted to stay with your squad). Perk planes will be selected by the CM's. Bomber pilots are not left out here. Most bombs on target and living would allow
pilot to command a formation. Same rules apply for bomber pilots as fighter pilots. You die you loose you perk ride. You score poorly may you loose your perk ride. Bomber pilots with a perk ride will remain with their orginal group.
Air/Sea Rescue;
The PT boat had to sit idle, next to the plane for 2 or 3 minutes. An agreed upon text would have to be typed (permission to come aboard, come aboard, etc... ) and filmed, along with the idle period. The downed pilot would then exit the plane (after the idle period) and move to the PT boats base and
have to wait for the boat to return. The PT boat has to return to base without dying or ditching. Only then would the pilot be considered "saved". If the boat fails to return or the pilot exits the arena before the boat returns, he's KIA.
Primary Life and Dead cap;
2 lives, 1 primary and 1 dead cap. Dead cap = friendly base cover, air/sea rescue or ground vehicle. Dead cap will be able to cover the channel but not make landfall on the other side. 5000 feet alt cap for dead cap planes. First lifers will be allowed to chase all the way back to the other sides base.
Vehicles and boats will be allowed to do rescues as well as friendly base support. Same basic set of rules apply for rescues. Dead cap can also cover air/sea rescue ops. Rescue applies to both sides. Dead cap planes will be a step back in plane set or anti-perk. Dead cap planes will be selected by the CM's.
Points;
Points will be awarded for targets destroyed and planes shot down.
Points will also be awarded for rescues.
Finally...
I am aware that this is by no means a "finished" scenario. It is only a set of ideas for a scenario. All input, ideas, comments and concerns are welcome.
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The above might be done as the 15th Airforce. Targets that no bomber pilot currently has ever been in. Everything from Romainia to Austria and Germany could be hit. Even getting Italian planes into a scenario which has only occured once or twice.
Vlkyrie1
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Originally posted by Valkyrie
The above might be done as the 15th Airforce. Targets that no bomber pilot currently has ever been in. Everything from Romainia to Austria and Germany could be hit. Even getting Italian planes into a scenario which has only occured once or twice.
Vlkyrie1
38s, Jugs, 51s, Spit IXs all involved along with both 17s and 24s.
Seems to me we did a couple of scenarios in AW based around Operation Strangle out of Italy.
Could probably include the MTO operated B26s and Mossies as well. Could be a lot of variety. Throw in both the LW and Italian birds and it could be alot of fun :)
Maybe the skinners get involved too so folks can use accurately marked birds for their groups. Imagine a sky full of correctly marked B17s and 24s going north to the oil refinaries near Vienna escorted by correctly marked P38s and 51s.
Sign me up for 94th FS,1st FG P38s please :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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So, what needs to happen for the next scenario to get queued up? Is there anything we in the player community can do?
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Were working on a new registrations system, We have decided it needz to be in working order before we start slotting the next event.
Were also hashing out some other stuff, but for now the Reg system needs to be in place.
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Can I be of some help ?
;)
Jordi
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Were trying Jordi. :)
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I guess nothing till at least Tuesday ?
Contact me off the forum if you like with some ideas and suggestions.
mikebowman-ah@sbcglobal.net
Jordi
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Anybody know when discussion will start about the next scenario?
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Battle of North Africa?
Rommel vs British (early) or Rommel vs American (mid)
We could even have tank battles along with air to air stuff...has it been done before? Seems like a lot of people like to jump into GVs in the MA at least.
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If a group put together a scenario and has its own registration system and just wants HTC to allow it to use the special-events arena on certain dates, who is the go-to person with the authority to allow the use on those dates or to deny the use on those dates?
Independent of that, what are the usual steps and control people for the running of a scenario?
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It's some guy you never heard of, ROC.;)
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For those of you who would like to know the CM team roster and assignments are posted
CO daddog
XO 68Falcon
Squad Ops
Fri: Ghost Dancer – Admin (Team Lead)
Fri: daddog –Admin in a pinch
Fri: 68KO - Admin
Fri: Stream - Admin
Fri: Sled - Setup
Fri: APDrone – Setup
SCENARIO
Nefarious (Team Lead)
SilverFox
ROC
Culero
Jordi (helping with registration)
Snapshots/KOTH
Thurs: 68falcon (Team Leader)
Thurs: 68Jabb
Thurs: LLv34_Camouflage
Thurs: SAMOX
Wed: JRCCrow
Wed: WMLute
Wed: Twinprop
Bi Monthly: (KOTH)
WMLute
Fuzeman
Aces High eXtreme Air Racing League
68KO (Team Leader)
Stream
TracerX
Octavious
Sunday Squad Ops
Sun: Flossy
Sun: daddog
Sun: Tilt
Sun: BlkKnit
CAP
Swoop
Octavius
TERRAINS
Dux (Team Lead)
Blauk
LLv34_Camouflage
Squirrel
gatso
-raxx-
kanttori
Silverfox
Events Server
forHIM
Advisor
Tilt
Jordi
All CMs have hitechcreations address. For instance 68Falcon@hitechcreations.com
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It's some guy you never heard of, ROC
LOL Easy!
I'm just a little fish in a big pond :)
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:D Put it in the right Ballpark though.
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Originally posted by ROCrats
LOL Easy!
I'm just a little fish in a big pond :)
Ahhh..... but a very important one. With quite a lot to offer :)
Would you like to trade I would not mind being a little fish :D
Easy you ready to jump in the pond yet :)
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well Thank you 68 lol But I think you're in the right position :)
Brooke, bring your idea to Nef. CM team can handle the setup and staffing, while a private event can be ran. There is a schedule on the calendar that is usually kept up to date, and the chances of getting a slot in are pretty good.
Shoot me an email if you can, I had a system crash, lost a hard drive and everything on it. Need to chat with you about some arriving coral sea stuff and lost some information.
I'd be happy to help you out on your event.
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Originally posted by 68falcon
Easy you ready to jump in the pond yet :)
LOL, working on a related project that's eating up all my free time.
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Thanks for the info, folks!
I don't have a scenario design in mind at the moment, but it sounded like there were several ready to go as long as they could get the go-ahead from the point people in charge of scenarios.
Does anyone out there have a design ready to go or ready to start working on? If not, then I might start working on something, as I'm eager to fly in another scenario and thus am willing to pitch in however will help.
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Time Frame ,Time Frame
I Like scenarios ,But I love to eat
Therefore I work .
I Attend all I can .
and Thanks for making them possable.
Originally posted by jordi
To me the biggest problem any scenario faces is ATTENDANCE.
There does seem to be a CORE of dedicated scenario players here in AH.
And there is a dedicated core base of players who are willing to step in and LEAD in a command position ( CO or XO or GL ) and or help design and test a scenario design.
But that is a small group compared to the total number of players needed to fill out all the expected rides in each frame.
On average for MOST AH Scenarios you start out with a bunch of people on Frame #1 and each following frame the total # of pilots including walkons gets smaller and smaller.
This drop off in players can affect the whole setup and balance of the event.
The good thing is that as more and more QUALITY Scenarios are designed and run it draw in more and more NEW Pilots.
Hopefully this will ENLARGE the CORE Base of Scenario players so that the designers of these events can come up with a total # of pilots needed to make the scenario work according to thiner plans and they can feel assured that most of those pilots will stick it out till the end.
We as the players who enjoy scenarios have to make it our job to help out in any way to make each scenario work.
That means we need to HELP the new scenario players and make it an experience that draw those new players back for the next scenario.
That means we need to accept that we may have to fly a plane that is not our first choice to HELP OUT THE TEAM.
That means some people may need to step up and fill a command roll to HELP OUT THE TEAM.
If everyone who signs up for a scenario expects to be able to just show up on frame day and fly nothing will ever get done. The MORE Pilots who participate even in a small way the weeks and or months leading up to frame #1 the better the scenario experience will be for them and for all involved.