Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vulcan on September 22, 2002, 06:20:01 PM
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Two weeks ago I got the battlefield 1942 'demo'. Kinda cool but very gamey, but it reignited the mmpog-tank-troop-sim interest in me so I thought fek it! And downloaded WW2OL, signed up for the int'l player no cd-key required thing and away I went.
Joystick setup seems a lot better than it used to be. I clutzed around the keymapper for a while and eventually got my stick setup mapped nicely. And the controls seemed reasonable.
Graphics, well, they don't really seem to have changed or progressed. In fact, its downright primitive. It reminds me of M1 Tank Platoon II or the final version of Gunship. The entire world seems to be made up of 2D surfaces with bitmaps applied to them. Initially, if you look across a landscape, it looks ok, then as you play the razor thin trees and hedgelines get a bit - ummm - sad. The infantry aren't really animated either, which I found disappointing (ie no animated limbs when walking). They look like little plastic soldiers being moved about by big invisible hands. There are also rendering errors, especially in the sky, nothing major, but another annoyance after a couple of days playing.
What is scarey about the graphics is the framerate, my spanky new Athlon 2100XP+ with Geforce 3 card could only crank out 25fps @ 1024 x 768 x 32 bit in the ground war. A little less in the air. All this to drive probably one of the most primitive 3D engines on the market. I base this on my comparision with OFP, which I run at 1280x1024x32 in high FPS, even with loads of much better rendered objects and similar viewing distances.
Sound is reasonable good. The volume relative to object distance could use a little tweaking. It seems a bit high, but perhaps it helps identify or track distant contacts.
The FM? Who cares! I went there for the ground war. Plus, IMHO the WW2OL FM needs to be dumbed down for the general masses to be interested. So I think the FM is just fine for its purpose.
The ground war? Well, the players really make it. It can be a lot of fun. Especially in peak times. But it IS the players who are making it work, the game engine itself is barely up to it. Playing time is a bit more dragged out than AH. Especially if you're infantry.
The server connection seemed ok, although I did notice it was reasonably hard to track infantry. The update rates seem a litle low compared to AH. It wasn't unusual to see a guy jump 5-10 metres in a different direction from 'warpage'.
Player numbers was another interesting one. At peak weekend times, where I fought, there were roughly 30 guys per side, with around 10 major 'battles' going across the map. So going by experience I'd say peak numbers were probably 1000, with off peak down to about 300.
In summary, the game has the basic features it should have been released with. However the graphics engine is way beyond its use-by-date. The player base is really all that makes WW2OL attractive. After a week I've had enough of the low framerates, 90's graphics, and 'jogging' practise.
Sadly, it wasn't worth the money.
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Time for the "Why, you must be doing something wrong. I have a Pentium 200 that gets 100fps in heavy dogfighting" posts to start. ;)
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lets see how the new Mac version will work out compared
to the PC version, fps wise.
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The engine isnt out of date. The problem is the number of polygons that must be rendered. The graphics will improve as the machines get better. My 2100xp, 1 gig 333mhz, geforce 4 4600 gets around 40fps with all the bells and whistles on in majior battles. There is something wrong in your setup to see fps that low with that machine. The next version will include a graphic engine rewrite to bring it up to DX 8.1 standards. T&L will be included. WW2OL graphics I suspect will never approach Stand Alone/32 Mulltiplayer standards. Just the nature of the beast.
Are you running more than 32 voices in Sound? More than 32 voicecs need CPU cycles to be produced. Also use your sound card driver instead of the generic one.
Hardcase
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Hehe the flight- and damage model sure could be better. Couple days ago my 110 decided to be a helicopter. I felt inverted from 1km high to ground, compass in HUD spinning like wheel of fortune.
I did drop flaps and gears and when the screen was clear again after red-out I found my plane sitting on her wheels on the ground in perfect condition.
10 secs later I was heading back to the fight :D
Version with Dx8 should be out "soon" and I'm eager to see if it helps FPS problems. I'm using 1280*1024 32bit and FPS varies from 15 to 50...
TB1,53GHz (OC'd 1,4)/768DDR/OC'd Gf4Ti4200/SB-Audigy/WinXP
(btw "Tokuh's Tweakuh 3" proggie for WinXP gives few FPS more, It sets the game to run in "High" or "Above normal" priority settings)
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Hardcase, I'm sorry but the engine is way out of date. Poly count? Considering most of the terrain is flat 2D rectangles with bitmapps mapped onto them you really are grasping at straws. The models certainly are nice. But the poly count is hardly up there.
40fps is not astounding for a PC with those specs you have either. M1 Tank Platoon II had a very very similar look to it (visual range, trees, models etc). This was a game from the old Voodoo days.
WW2OL graphics may never approach standalone graphics, that is no excuse for poor framerates on such high spec'd PC's. For example, AH is no leading edge graphics, but because it isn't I can run it at 1600x1200x32 and still achieve 75fps. IE, entry level graphics on grunty PC should equal hi frame rates. In WW2OL it doesn't, clear signs of a poorly written graphics engine.
My system runs plenty of other programs just fine without tweaking. Explain to me why programs with clearly high poly counts, like OFP, or Battlefield 1942, perform better at high res than WW2OL?
Originally posted by hardcase
The engine isnt out of date. The problem is the number of polygons that must be rendered. The graphics will improve as the machines get better. My 2100xp, 1 gig 333mhz, geforce 4 4600 gets around 40fps with all the bells and whistles on in majior battles. There is something wrong in your setup to see fps that low with that machine. The next version will include a graphic engine rewrite to bring it up to DX 8.1 standards. T&L will be included. WW2OL graphics I suspect will never approach Stand Alone/32 Mulltiplayer standards. Just the nature of the beast.
Are you running more than 32 voices in Sound? More than 32 voicecs need CPU cycles to be produced. Also use your sound card driver instead of the generic one.
Hardcase
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Believe it or not me brady and heinkel signed back up. Gameplay still sux, game is nothing much to look at.
I did find something out though. I was able to snipe folks off at long range with my pistol (luger) with 1 shot where as my rifle it took 2 maybe 3 at range.
If inf were close then the rifle aint worth a damn. Brady and I both would walk behind an enemy inf and shoot umm in the back with our rifle. I shot 1 guy 3 times and he just turned round and machine gunned me.
Same thing with brady.
Heres the last aar I posted on our squad bbs (I has uploaded images but I deleted off my hd when I uninstalled wwiiol)
I had the most awesome tank battle today. The allies captures a base just south of bertrix, Herbeaumont.
I originally set on the North East heights over looking Sedan. From here I have a good look into Both Army Bases as well as the Dock in Sedan. Nothing was spawning at Sedan when the call comes over the radio asking for support to re-take Herbeaumont.
I spawn as a rifle man and jump on an Opel. As we approach Herb. I jump as it seems we are taking fire. Well the Opel and and the 5 or 6 other inf get killed by ai.
I circle round to the trees and see what looks to be an armor/inf assault forming in the Army base presumably to Bertrix.
I start to run back to the Fb where I spawned but realize it would take to long. So I despawn. I jump to Bertrix and no tanks were available so I jump back to the FB where I originally spawned as an inf.
The only tank avail there was a 38t. I spawn thinking I can catch them from behind and jump on the road and haul arse east.
I see off to my right 2 friendly p111s taking and returning fire. I turn right off road and head to their position. I set up overlooking the the North road going into the town. there was an r35 an s-35 and a sa mle 37 all firing at the p3s. The r35 despawns as soon as I turn my sights to him and the s35 had moved behind some trees. I switch to he and fire and kill the sa mle 37.
Kill #1
the p3s tell me 3 - 4 other tanks had got by north as well as a bedford toward bertrix. I haul arse back north off road and before I get to far off to my right on the road theres an r 35. Hes moving slow trying to get up hill. I fire and hit him. Damn I forget to switch back to ap. switch fire again to use the he thats already loaded and fire again with ap killing the r 35.
Kill #2
I see another tank further north. I dont have a shot so I moved west of the road but parallel and headed north.
I see tracer fire to the nw and see 2 nme tanks pull off the road. It seems another friendly tank had set up ahead of them. This is my chance to catch umm because they stopped.
I get in position of less then 800 yards of the closest tank. He doesnt see me because hes engaged with the other friendly.
I could have got closer but I got scared. I came to a stop went to the main gun and had a good look at the tank. Damn!!! A CHAR!!!
I thought about running because at that range if he hits me 1 time I am dead. I then remember that on the char that the radiator grill is weak and I can atleast disable him. But its on the left side and I am looking at his right. I then also remember the hatch on the back on the turret is weak as well and to my joy I have a clear shot right at it.
Boom!! I fire my 1st shoot and the char is no longer firing at the other friendly.
Boom!! another shot and he despawns.
Kill # 3
The friendly tank tells me hes disabled and that an s35 has just rounded the corner headed north toward bertrix. He said he had killed a truck and maybe some inf.
I dont want to head on the road fer fear another nme tank may be coming up the road from herb. and I would be totally exposed should the s35 spot me.
Instead I make a dash North then North west around some trees. As I get near the road to Bertrix I spot the s35 stopped in the road apparently finishing off the other friendly tanker.
I get close again this time within a 1000 yards and fire, then fire again and again. The s35 doesnt see me and hes looking the wrong way, thinking I came from the same direction as the other tank. I fire again and again. WTF this bastard wont die!!!
I put atleast 9 rounds of ap in him and then he just despawns. WOW!!!!!! thinking I got my 4th kill (actually I thought my 3rd because I figured the char had despawned after taking damage.)
In the week or so I tried playing wwiiol again this was it for anything resembling "fun".
Nothing about the air war in there do I find "fun" or "immersive". Reminds my a lot of fighter ace with cockpits forced on. Of the 3 of us that signed back up just brady still plays but last I talked to him he said he was getting bored with it. I am still paid up for another week. Despite its looks and at times it bugginess it just isnt very fun. Its about gameplay for me. And I spend too much time being bored over there.
"Virtual Jogger"..........lol
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ty Wotan!!! reminded me i had to cancel my account by the 25th ;) Played it for a week then got bored of mystery tank deaths and CTDs in air
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Wotan when I was playing I heard several people commenting about 'Luger Sniping' and wondered about that.
I did wonder about the rifle. In one run I made, I crept into an occupied town, spotted an enemy sniper in a abandoned tower. I proceeded to shoot at him, maybe 20 rounds. Eventually he spotted me, 1 ping and I was dead. The score screen showed he was a sapper, and I 'damaged' him. I assume this was the pistol-sniping at work. I hit him with a 303, and only wound the guy, he pistol snipers me from range and kills me instantly.
Looks like OFP user made missions will be my savouir.
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pistols are the sniper weapon, ask brady I was nailing guys the were far away. I hit umm with my rifle and it wouldnt kill um.
They gotta long way to go before I re-install that pos.
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hehe...
...it's stuff like that just jars me right out of any fun I could have. In the air you see similar anomolies. I didn't grunt much because I have no interest, but I suspected there were similar probs. Best description is "death by 1,000 cuts". Nothing big, but the little scratches all add up.
1.67 may add new features, but will it correct such obvious and glaring problems? Doubt it.
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Some play, some stay. It grows, I knows. Perhaps someday it will be something you can enjoy.
hardcase
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How do you know the guy shot you? There is no kill records kept. Not who killed you, but who you killed. Did the Sapper throw a grenade? Was he the only other enemy in the town? Ppl get pretty good with all the weapons. The rifles have a Battle Sight Zero of 200 yds(meters? forgot which) Aim low under 200 yds, Aim high beyond 200 yds. I have walked up on ppl fixated on a target and shot em in the head:-)
Anyway, if you dont enjoy it, maybe later.
hardcase
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CTDs in the air. I dont CTD, so is it the sim or your system? BTW, did you ever post about the problems? How about posting your system specs, settings? Might add some insight into the CTD problem.
hardcase
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Comon hard :) experienced players were talking about 'luger sniping', so its obviously a known thing within the hardcore WW2OL community.
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Ahhh, "despawn". You know, I swear I coined that term; of course, such things are lost in the mists of the past, so I'll pretend I didn't.
"despawn" was for me one of my major objections to WW2OL. Instead of smoking hulks, or crew bailing out, or anything like that, they just disappear.
Yeah, I have fond memories of those few shining moments where I snuck into an enemy assembly area with an SMG, and get a bunch of kills; or the time I single-handedly capped a base, killing eight infantry, two halftrack drivers, a couple 88 crews and two pak gunners.
But I also recall hours of sitting around. Despawning tanks. Spawn campers. Bedfords that can't make the grade. Aircraft you can't bail out of, and that can land and shut down anywhere.
I remember when Luger sniping wasn't an issue, because the 9mm parabellum round would fire forwads, then slingshot backwards under low-FP sconditions. I remember posting detailed test reports with 100% repeatable results, showing how you could hit the back of a target with this bug. I remember being asked to leave.
Yeah, hard, maybe one of these days they'll have a product worth coming back to. I won't deny it has flashes of brilliance; but the BS you have to put up with to enjoy that just isn't worth it. It's a pity -- it's a good idea, but the implementation seems the work of a bunch of well meaning amateurs.
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It prolly never will have burning hulks. Bandwidth problems. How many is too many hulks, how do you disappear them when someone is using them for cover. This was hashed over a lot. They still want to do it, but each ones eats bandwidth and you must remove the clutter sometime.
As for luger sniping. I have rarely used one since I fly more than grunt. I have not seen that on the forums or in beta. I will ask around. I suspect what ww2ol doesnt model is hand motion when firing. Like firing with a support. Absolutly steady aim can make a pistol have a greater reach. I would like to see taking to long to fire will make the sighting waver for all hand helds.
Yep, it does take a while to tweak and get stuff right. The time to do is shortening with each release. I would like to see ppl get a full month at it. It really does have a learning curve and 2 weeks may not be long enought for those freebies.
I am probably lucky. I still run win98se and my machines stay very stable. I have avoided most of the frustrations, and I know they would take away from my gameplay if they were happening to me. Quite a few of us monitor the community help forum and we seem to get must ppl up and running. Gameplay issue, not a thing I can help.
A scenario server was run last week. Simple rules for the startup. One thing, Infantry was also attrited. Anhee, was attacked ruthlessly by the Germans for 3 hours and finally ran out of even grunts. Had like 5 Laffy Trucks left. Gameplay is always in flux and CRS does listen.
I'll always invite anyone to the freebies:-)
hardcase
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Originally posted by hardcase
My 2100xp, 1 gig 333mhz, geforce 4 4600 gets around 40fps with all the bells and whistles on in majior battles. There is something wrong in your setup (snip)
Hardcase
Looks like there is something wrong in *WW2OL*. You should get much more fps than that. But probably its game engine fault. Couldnt resist ;)
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downplay... excuse... defer... anecdote.
Got it!
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The engine isnt out of date. The problem is the number of polygons that must be rendered. The graphics will improve as the machines get better.
Hardcase, have you done any graphics programming? Because you apparently don't have a clue. Any half-way decent engine today will implement appropriate Level of Detail so that you can get fast FPS with relatively complex scenerery. And there's nothing about WW2OL's scenery that makes it uniquely difficult.
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Vulcan,
Often people over estimates the distance as a troop :)
Koala,
Yes, nice details and fast FPS - at a sandbox size map and OpenGL, right?
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This is a superb game were a Jerry can kill your B1 with his luger ...
what about this pak who killed my B1 in a front shot at 800 metres ?
Were are the MS406/D520 ?
not enought data said playskool idiot ...
but as they are unable to make a proper FM for a plane why do they bother about accurate data ?
This software is a slow piece of junk coded by idiots.
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Straffo,
Luger killing B1? at least drop the lies ok?
Often B1's also gets flanked, how do you know it was Pak and not some other gun on your flank?
I wonder how many B1 players I've caused to think that the tank in front of them killed them, when in fact the lethal shot came from the side - which they never ever saw or cared about.
Where is Brewster from AH? :>
Define "proper FM", what makes you think AH has proper flight model? what makes you think anything has proper flight model? did you perhaps fly the WWII planes?
I could just as well find many mistakes from AH, which I assume you think has very good flight model and other things.
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Ok, maybe the SW sucks but what is great about this game is the co-operation of air and ground forces. In my opinion you should be in a squad to get the most of the game. The game rules have been altered every now and then to balance the game and to add features which reward team play more.
I think it's not possible to run a game with, say, OFP ground graphics and viewing distances and ground elevetions of WW2OL with present day computers...
Yesterday I was in a Pz38 defending our forward base carefully driving forward among the bushes and trees. Suddenly I heard a tank cannon firing next to me. I stopped the tank and turned the turret to see a possible enemy tank. Behind the bushes was a British Matilda 2, the monster tank which could rip my puny Pz38 to pieces with one shot! The Matty had not seen me so I carefully closed in behind the bushes so that I could see its turret. I shot 3 rounds to the base of its cannon causing the cannon to break down. Then a few shots to forward drive gears to immobilize it. The Matty continued shooting our GI's with its turret MG so I had to finish it off somehow. The only place my cannon could penetrate its thick armor was in 90 degrees angle to its fuel tank armor. So I drove carefully to Mattys flank hoping there wouldn't be an A13 somewhere nearby ready to ruin my day with one carefully placed shot in my turret. Nobody shoots me except the Matty who now see me and realizes it cannot run. I stop my tank at Matty's side and land a few AP grenades just below the fuel tank armor causing a flame roaring from Matty's turret. My first Matty kill in a Pz38 and I'm already a Colonel of the ground forces. I was lucky!
The FM in WW2OL is not on the same level with the AH but in my opinion sufficient to give challenges and to support the gameplay as a whole. Anyway, I still play AH because of the better FM and and the different (air-biased) emphasis of the game.
-Charge+
(WW2OL axis chrg)
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Originally posted by Fishu
Straffo,
Luger killing B1? at least drop the lies ok?
In fact last time I switched to the dark side (I try to play 50/50) a friend of mine showed me how to kill the B1 driver with a handgun ... it work ...
Often B1's also gets flanked, how do you know it was Pak and not some other gun on your flank?
I wonder how many B1 players I've caused to think that the tank in front of them killed them, when in fact the lethal shot came from the side - which they never ever saw or cared about.
I hate being alone in a B1 last time I got killed this way I was with R35 and friendly inf around me ...
I don't pretend the Pak was at 800 meter as I've not seen it (I'm pretty bad at spoting things ;)) but it was what was reported by my friend who killed him ...
And I won't let a char disabled on top of a hill with a suerb sky background :p
Where is Brewster from AH? :>
Dunno ... I hope to see all plane in AH ...
But imagine a game based in the continuation war without one of the major weapon involved (no Brewster for you ... one year)
It make no sence ... like the absence of the 520/406
Define "proper FM", what makes you think AH has proper flight model? what makes you think anything has proper flight model? did you perhaps fly the WWII planes?
Well ...
I just don't feel right ...
why it is so different than AH IL2 or WB ?
I could just as well find many mistakes from AH, which I assume you think has very good flight model and other things.
nope I'm not a FM specialist I admit there is probably error in any FM but as I said previously why can I make thing in WWIIol which are impossible in other sims ?
and why do they model a so funky 25 mm sight ? I've the documentation of the 25 used by my grand father in 1940 ...
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Fishu 'estimating' distances have little to do with 'luger sniping'.
FM? Please, do not try and justify the WW2OL FM. It is a simplified FM, an easy mode FM. Which is what WW2OL needs. An AH style FM would scare the crap out of the average punter.
AH is by no means perfect, but only someone grasping at straws would try to compare the WW2OL FM to AH. Compare it to CFS1 or something.
And I'd hardly call the maps on AH or OFP 'sandbox' in size.
No matter how much you wave the flag fishu, you're pissing into the wind. I laid my money out (btw Hardcase I put you down as the friend reference so you should get some free gametime - seeing as you do so much WW2OL promoting here :). I found the game to be lacking relatively quickly.
In the WW2OL forums, I saw estimates talked about of a 10000-15000 active player base, and a general consensus that WW2OL had failed to hold the player base despite good initial retail sales.
I posted about my PAID FOR experience here just to let the guys here know what the latest was. Most AH players were keen for WW2OL to succeed, only to be disappointed.
It suprises me that you eagerly jump into any WW2OL discussion on the AH BBS. You must have a lot of spare time on your hands, spare time not playing WW2OL ;)
Originally posted by Fishu
Straffo,
Luger killing B1? at least drop the lies ok?
Often B1's also gets flanked, how do you know it was Pak and not some other gun on your flank?
I wonder how many B1 players I've caused to think that the tank in front of them killed them, when in fact the lethal shot came from the side - which they never ever saw or cared about.
Where is Brewster from AH? :>
Define "proper FM", what makes you think AH has proper flight model? what makes you think anything has proper flight model? did you perhaps fly the WWII planes?
I could just as well find many mistakes from AH, which I assume you think has very good flight model and other things.
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Totally agree on the FM Charge.
However, the viewing distances in OFP are similar to WW2OL. The ground elevations in OFP are far more complex than WW2OL. The scenery in OFP is far more dense, and the models far more complex. The map is reasonably large in OFP, yet it doesn't eat memory or requiring slow paging from disk like WW2OL.
Bottom line is, there graphics engine is porked. Hell, 1 year on and the sky rendering still shows errors.
Originally posted by Charge
Ok, maybe the SW sucks but what is great about this game is the co-operation of air and ground forces. In my opinion you should be in a squad to get the most of the game. The game rules have been altered every now and then to balance the game and to add features which reward team play more.
I think it's not possible to run a game with, say, OFP ground graphics and viewing distances and ground elevetions of WW2OL with present day computers...
The FM in WW2OL is not on the same level with the AH but in my opinion sufficient to give challenges and to support the gameplay as a whole. Anyway, I still play AH because of the better FM and and the different (air-biased) emphasis of the game.
-Charge+
(WW2OL axis chrg)
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I know I sniped 2 guys with a pistol. I know I shot another guy in the same area and distance with my rifle and he sprinted behind a building. I rtb'd got 2 kills and I damage. I saw the 2 I fired at with my ppistol fall and die. This happened more the once. When asked guys in the game everyone said "use ur pistol".
I was high the a church and in the the folks I killed we dropped by the woods south of the ab. I shot completely across the ab, a road, a building and some flat ground on either side of the ab.
I dont need to lie and my squadmate was right there on rw. He has ran right up behind a guy and shot him several times with his rifle to have the guy turn around kill him, I have had the same thing happen. So the next time we did this we used the pistol and what do you know 1 shot 1 kill.
I never killed a tank with a pistol but I have a picture of a guy climbing under my stug and somehow all my crew dieing. All I heard was small arms fire. I was parked and looking around and no nme tanks were around. When I exited I saw a french rifleman laying on the ground with his feet sticking out from underneath me and heard him firing his rifle.
I care nothing about the airwar in wwwiiol but come on, 110 is the plane of choice for the lw in the battle of france? pistols are the weapon of choice by inf? grenades with their screwed up hit cone explode on impact and kill everyone in a tank? guys can climb underneath a tank and some how shoot the crew?
But even all that would be tolerable if the overall gameplay was fun. Its boring 90% of the time.
The p11 was very fun though. I got a ton of kills with it. AP upclose would kill an r35 and the he shreds inf. I sat up numerous times on the hill ne above sedan and was able to rain he down into the inf spawn in the west ab. I was able to kil a few boats that spawned. When nme tanks spotted me I could move back out of their line a sight and wait a few before repositioning.
I was almost a major in the army and a leutenant in the lw.
I gave kept a paid account their from the time it went pay to play and canceled it in 1.50. Came back for the welcome back sucker free week and finally re sub 3 weeks ago. I have less then maybe 35 hours in all that time. I am not just a "wwiiol hater" if it was fun I would tell ya. With its current model I dont see how they can move on to other theaters, I was really looking forward to an East front theater but with nothing but capture the flag/town it just wont be any fun. To call what wiiol has modelled "Blitzkreig" is a stretch.
Dont believe me? try it out. 10 bucks for a month. err 12 now. If it was good I'd pay $30 a month but I wouldnt play what they have now for free.
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I agree with you Wotan :
There is potential in WWIIol ...but not the implementation :(
one of the incovenient of WWIIol compared to AH is it's neither an open Arena like the Ma but nor a scenario ...
It just combine the worst : restriction like in scenario and gamer attitude like in MA
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Lot of statements as facts of stuff that is only speculation. I remember when warbirds was the new kid on the block and everyone tore it to pieces. AH was the same way. WW2OL is no different.
"It is not fun"..I find it fun.
We are both correct to our opinions.
hardcase
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we agree to disagree
That's why you play WWIIol and me AH
But frankly having played a bit of WWIIol I don't think I've said anything other than fact in my posts or I'm just the unlucky boy of the block :p
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hardcase= Fanboy
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"It is not fun"..I find it fun.
We are both correct to our opinions.
I dont mean to imply that I speak for anyone but myself. Theres lotsa having fun there. I am just not one of them. All the people (my squad had 26 when wwiiol first was released) I played with dont play it anymore and all site the same reasons.
All games have bugs and defects and things to be fixed. Some overcome come this with gameplay, some dont. IMHO wwiiol falls way short of everything that was hyped prior to release. They still arent close to getting to where they claimed they wanted to go.
All those faked aars from beta etc...........
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Wotan, I wrote one of those "Faked" AARs. It was definitely not faked. But I was careful to describe it the game as "having potential".
The WW2OL folks who post here want us to like their game. I don't blame them. I'd want to have some experienced players who think like we do in WW2OL.
Ww2OL has a viewdistance of what? 5000 yards? Bring up OFP, crank the viewdistance to 5000 m and see what happens.
Even so...
If you haven't played it, it's certainly worth a look. Yeah, I have fond memories; like a couple of visits to the church tower (back when few could) with 20+ kills; or hearing that a column of Panzers was coming up the river at dusk, parking an A13 in a ravine just off the road. Wait until all three are in view, then pop rounds in the front and rear at PB; in the confusion, waste them, then the two trucks behind him.
I don't have many fond memories of the air stuff, largely because the FR were bad and the options limited: air-to-air was pretty easy, largely consisting of going to the other guy's aerodrome and vulching those taking off; but two taps of down elevator trim would kill the pilot; the only thing you could really bomb were tanks, but the blast radius was pretty small, and by the time you RTBd and brought another bomb out, the tank could respawn 10 times over. Why use a bomb when a pistol works better?
BTW, do those little wooden stakes on the side of the road still flip tanks?
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I remember reading an aar that talked of a stuka blowing up a bridge and killing 2 b1s which were crossing it.
Was that not "fake" in the truest sense of the word?
black out red hasnt changed and the wood post still flip tanks.
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One thing I dont like about AcesHigh and envy to WW2OL: we dont have enuff cheerleaders to send to other boards ;) :)
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Originally posted by hardcase
CTDs in the air. I dont CTD, so is it the sim or your system? BTW, did you ever post about the problems? How about posting your system specs, settings? Might add some insight into the CTD problem.
hardcase
What in the world are you doing over there doing that?
Get your butt over in AH where it belongs...you are an Aviator not a grunt!!!
Sheesh!
-soul-
:D
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Faked AARs. There was a time in beta when you could destroy bridges. It was crude and very easy to kill bridges. CRS wants to have bridges destroyable and repairable. Working out the ownership and coding it is the problem.
Having fun is the name of any game. I hope the new release will up the fun factor everyone and reach that threshold that will bring in some skeptics. Mac guys are coming full tilt in November
Little aside. ..we have known since the release that the videos cause a failure to load to a lot of folks. We recommend renaming the folder. What does Strategy First do with their new release. You betcha, the CINE folder is still in that version.
I see the flaws:-), I also see the war.
hardcase
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Hardcase, the difference between AH and WB, or anything new, and WW2Ol... is that the ones I mentioned first worked as they were supposed to.
WW2Ol, OTOH, is about 30% working of 100%...
I'm not scared of WW2Ol, I dunno how anyone could... and certainly not with the team that's running it...
The ideas are good, everything else is half baked.
-SW
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was a time in beta when you could destroy bridges. It was crude and very easy to kill bridges. CRS wants to have bridges destroyable and repairable. Working out the ownership and coding it is the problem.
Ah ok never new that. I just new what they put on the disk and sold me for 40 bucks was nothing like what I read in their aars.
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The "clipping into the tank to shoot the crew with your pistol" is a well-known exploit. Clipping was/is a pretty big problem with the game overall.
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Rah! Rah!
WWIIO is great ...your system sucks!
Rah! Rah!
WWIIO is great ...you are an idiot send more bucks!
:rolleyes:
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Straffo,
When was the last time?
You do know that games get patched, right?
Might be fixed since your last time.
Well, I still don't hear evidence of it being the Pak 36 :)
Quite good hit from your friend if he killed Pak 36 with R35 at 800 meters.. hehe..
It's cannon sucks, needs direct hit and MG in WWIIOL doesn't effect that far.
I feel AH and IL2 flight model alot different from each other..
What I've heard, they're giving new sight for 25mm..
You see.. games do get updated :)
Vulcan,
For some people 100 meter looks like long distance, but at that distance it is still good chance to get hit by Luger and even killed.
I've talked to couple Luger owners and they can hit smaller than man sized target at 100 meters :)
... and let's remember that in games we do have better accuracy than in real life.
We learn from mistakes and we have time to learn over mistakes, unlike in real life. (plus we dont have to really worry about dying)
I'm not waving any flag, it's just stupid when people makes poor and even false arguments of a game.
So yes, I do jump into discussions.. WWIIOL isn't that poor game and it does not deserve certain silly arguments.
People puts it down with what most silliest and false arguments and even promotes AH over it, while forgetting many of the silly issues in AH... whats up with that?
AH fanbois?
Obviously use of common sense and fairness isn't allowed anymore - you'll be accused as fanboy and what ever..
People just can't act objectively anymore.
I'm so tired of double stantards..
People blames game A for even tiny issues and ridiculously doesn't mind any bad of issues in the game B, which with they seem to compare the game A.
Then when someone comes in and says something against unjustified accusations on game A, hes called fanboy, in insultive manner.
What does that make the person calling the other a fanboy because of that? a fanboy of the game B?
Wotan,
I care nothing about the airwar in wwwiiol but come on, 110 is the plane of choice for the lw in the battle of france? pistols are the weapon of choice by inf? grenades with their screwed up hit cone explode on impact and kill everyone in a tank? guys can climb underneath a tank and some how shoot the crew?
but you do still play AH, which in .50 caliber is rather close to 20mm, .50 caliber kills tanks, Hispano is from another planet compared to MG151/20, 75mm is quite sucky, slats operation isnt modelled, game where bomber guns were for a long time shooting through fuselage (only recently fixed!)....
I don't bother making up the grand list, but that for what came quickly up to my mind...
For some reason you seem to have some favorable bias over one games bugs and negative over another games ...
Whats up with that?-)
Obviously with the planes theres two choices for LW: Bf110 and Bf109, which of the latter one is restricted.
So there will be alot 110s, which wasnt really that bad as many thinks - you can ask about that from anyone who knows the Bf110, problem was that it's bad reputation came from BoB where it was misused to escort, which it definately didn't fit for.
It wasn't excellent, but it wasn't either crap - it was competitive when let to fight on it's strenght.
I don't either think the pistol is that widely used... mostly at close ranges under 100 meters which I see no problem with.
Grenade killing tanks is a bug, but it was left as it is to reflect the 'multiple ways' of infantry killing the tank and even so, you can't guarantee to kill a tank with even multiple grenades.
So thats all right with me, since theres also many times more tanks over the inf than in real life - in real life there that one inf lobbing grenades on your tank, would be closer to 100 troops.
I've had no problem with infantry so far.. I just use tank smartly and use teamwork - problem is that people thinks tanks are supposed to die only against satchel, AT-rifles, rocket launchers and molotovs...
In real life, lone tank rushing near enemy infantry without support, was a dead tank... in WWIIOL tankers life is much better.
Dinger,
Yes, but not so easily.. just like those trees tend to kill tanks on touch in AH.
AKswulfe,
Difference between AH and WWIIOL development is that theres no expectations put on AH and then valued by that.
Heck.. planes doing the main work of capturing the ground? give me a break ;)
but no.. generally nobody minds that bad.... why? since thats how it is, there has been no expectations on 'how' it should work, it is accepted as a made rule.
Kieran,
but CRS is trying to fix those tank clippings.. so I don't understand what is the point of the argument.
What I know of, most of the tank clipping is fixed and possible ones will be fixed too.
Theres been lots of exploits and bugs in AH too, which have been fixed.. some has stayed longer, some less.
You're pretty much giving double stantards for game developtment here.
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Let me put it this way Fishu, the way WW2Ol is SUPPOSED to work was made clear before it's release.
The way it DOES work is far different.
And the fact that the software itself is incomplete, long after it's release when it was supposed to be closer to 70% complete, that in itself is an indication of how poorly written it is and how slow the developers are in creating a game.
WW2Ol didn't include half of what was listed on the box, and it still doesn't include a whole lot of things that it's supposed to.
Whatever spin you want to put on it, WW2Ol is failure that should of been aborted long ago.
Pay 2 play shouldn't even have been an option, but I guess people don't mind paying for a bug ridden atrocity more comparable to the second coming of Confirmed Kill than any other piece of working software.
"You get what you pay for"... or in WW2Ol's case, "You pay for what you should of gotten, and still don't have"
-SW
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Another rant about the launch. Old news and beaten to death. Box was printed longd before the release. CRS thought they had longer to work on it than they did. Everyone acknowledges the failure of the launch and none more than CRS. WW2OL actually isn't a failure, it won't go away, and that attitude that you want an online war sim to fail, seems childish.
Really venomous aren't ya:-)
hardcase
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About the launch? toejam man, I didn't know a launch lasted for over a year?
It's still a horrid piece of crap, it'll be 3 more years before it becomes what it says on the box. Are you meaning to tell me that CRS anticipated they would have 3 more years to get it to box specs??
I don't want an "online war sim" to fail, it's doing it on it's own, even if they tried to sell the idea and the current framework, I highly doubt anyone would buy it. Maybe for a nickel someone would..
Really venemous? No, but when someone comes here and tries to tell me something that looks like toejam, plays like toejam and is as slow as toejam isn't indeed toejam, then I feel the need to post here and remind them that toejam is toejam no matter what the few "good" aspects the toejam has.
-SW
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plays like toejam for you. Not me and others. Why not qualify it like you should. Pretty vague without knowing your system and setup. BTW..I came in here when someone did an ad hoc review. Some enjoy it, you don't. Might want to hone those reviewing skills if you want someoneto get any info from it.
LOL, like hitech will let you look over his shoulder while he codes. You really want some war stories about HT coding warbirds;-)
btw. it isnt failing.
hardcase
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Wotan,
quote:
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I care nothing about the airwar in wwwiiol but come on, 110 is the plane of choice for the lw in the battle of france? pistols are the weapon of choice by inf? grenades with their screwed up hit cone explode on impact and kill everyone in a tank? guys can climb underneath a tank and some how shoot the crew?
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but you do still play AH, which in .50 caliber is rather close to 20mm, .50 caliber kills tanks, Hispano is from another planet compared to MG151/20, 75mm is quite sucky, slats operation isnt modelled, game where bomber guns were for a long time shooting through fuselage (only recently fixed!)....
I don't bother making up the grand list, but that for what came quickly up to my mind...
For some reason you seem to have some favorable bias over one games bugs and negative over another games ...
Whats up with that?-)
.50 cals killing tanks in ah is bs and I have posted it on it numerous times. But AH gameplay makes up for it. Also I dont tank in ah just like I dont fly in wwiiol. For the same reasons.
I can enter the arena in AH and have an hours worth of fun that is far beyond what I get in an hour in wwiiol.
bombers gun shooting through themselves never bugged bombers have always been easy kills.
The difference is that in wwiiol I drive or run for 45 min and before I have 1 ounce of fun some one snipes me with a pistol, or kills my entire tank crew by clipping, or a grenade kills my entire tank crew. I then need to spend another 30 or 40 min playing virtual jogger.
Obviously with the planes theres two choices for LW: Bf110 and Bf109, which of the latter one is restricted.
So there will be alot 110s, which wasnt really that bad as many thinks - you can ask about that from anyone who knows the Bf110, problem was that it's bad reputation came from BoB where it was misused to escort, which it definately didn't fit for.
It wasn't excellent, but it wasn't either crap - it was competitive when let to fight on it's strenght.
I was 29 and 6 in 110 when I quit. I augered from red out or black out all 6 times. I have no problem with the 110. I just co'd the AH event "Battle of Britain" where my 110s owned the sky.
It was more expensive and took more material and a longer time to produce 110s. It certainly wasnt the plane of choice for the jagdwaffe durring the battle of France. The entire air war mostly consists of vulch missions to the other sides afs. Which I care nothing about, the fm and entire air war was terrible.
I don't either think the pistol is that widely used... mostly at close ranges under 100 meters which I see no problem with.
Grenade killing tanks is a bug, but it was left as it is to reflect the 'multiple ways' of infantry killing the tank and even so, you can't guarantee to kill a tank with even multiple grenades.
So thats all right with me, since theres also many times more tanks over the inf than in real life - in real life there that one inf lobbing grenades on your tank, would be closer to 100 troops.
Ofcourse you dont see the problem you're a fan boi. But I am not a liar and have myself sniped enemy inf with my pistol. Other guys in the game, whom I never saw before said they used the pistol over the rifle for longer range kills. Vulcan, whom I only know casually from ah is saying he has heard and experienced the same thing.
I dont care if you throw 1000 grenades at a buttoned up tank you aint gonna kill everyone inside. mgff/m should penetrate a tank. I have heard you say you killed a tank by striffing it. Even if you hit the armor where it is thinnist early mgff/m exploded on impact. There were problem of mgff/m detonating on the skin of aircraft so 6mm surely would stop it.
I've had no problem with infantry so far.. I just use tank smartly and use teamwork - problem is that people thinks tanks are supposed to die only against satchel, AT-rifles, rocket launchers and molotovs...
In real life, lone tank rushing near enemy infantry without support, was a dead tank... in WWIIOL tankers life is much better.
I told you these "bugs" could be over looked if the overall fun factor was up. I dont find it fun. No one who I have played with found "fun". None of those who started out in wwiiol with me still play it.
in WWIIOL tankers life is much better.
That because how poorly thought out and planned their game is.
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Hardcase with a system as expensive as yours, you can run any other decently coded game (excluding WW2OL from those obviously) at 100+ fps. Possibly even 200+ fps.
So an average of 40 is weak, really weak.
What comes to the expected release date, if they weren't prepared to release it after what, 3 years? The game needs a complete recoding due to development of the competition passing them here and back. Sure it looked awesome 3 years ago, now it looks and is antique graphicswise.
Fishu: You left AH years ago, after beta if I recall right. Have you revisited the game seriously after that burnout you had, and if you did, did you enjoy it anymore?
The basic fact that nobody can deny is that WW2OL promised a toejamload more than it delivered. It still does so after a years running and patching. It still needs a high-end computer to barely be playable. Untill that is fixed (which will happen not by coding but progress with hardware heh heh.. :)) nobody can really defend it.
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Gameplay works fine for me and others..and taking 45 mins to get to a battle. Sorry, but that statements tells me you really didnt have a clue how to play. Sniping with the pistol, for all i know it is true. I will try it tonight. I don't know, but check the forums and no one is posting about it. For all i know, you got your clock cleaned by someone you weren't looking at. Stating opinion as fact only influences the weak minded.
hardcase
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Fishu-
Would you please, once and for all, point to where I am referencing AH in any discussion of WWIIOL? I don't, plain and simple. They are two different games. You are using that straw man as some sort of shield to deflect any comments about WWIIOL you find uncomfortable. Clipping did/does happen. That is a truth, and AH has nothing to do with it. The damage model is seriously screwed up. Once again, note no comparison to AH, yet the fact remains it is screwed up.
People make the comparison to AH only in what they choose to play. I just don't see how getting upset with the denizens of this game over a negative opinion of the game you like is warrented, especially given that you are doing it on the opposition's website? What kind of opinion do you expect to find here?
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any other game..apples and oranges. I max out tribes..but..duh...
All codes can be improved and I expect the next release to increase the FPS for all(going to dx8.1). You know EQ, with its dice throw combat is going to require 512 megs of memory in its next release.
How is the damge model seriously screwed up? I like the idea of hitting an a13 and knowing there are 55 damage areas in it. Lack of damage graphics on aircraft is a pain, but that is coming also.
I get my 9.99/month enjoyment out of ww2.
hardcase
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Rah! Rah!
I'm HC and I am right and you are wrong!
Rah! Rah!
You can all just kiss my dong!
Rah! Rah!
You are and idiot and I'm real smart!
Rah! Rah!
Your breath smells just like a fart!
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If you dont like ww2ol, you arent wrong. My liking ww2ol doesnt make me right. But I do know the difference between an opinion and a rant.
I flew AH, Warbirds. Great flight sims, quick return on fun factor. WW2Ol is not always fun, but to me it is interesting and immersive.
If the bugs are too much for you to enjoy yourself, wait a while, things get fixed. BTW..why do you guys fly AH and not Warbirds?
hardcase
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Oed, that is just crap. We get ppl running all the time. You know, like giving privs to your firewall in XP. Deleting the lame bellybutton videos. Playing with more than 256 megs of ram using xp. Some amazinhunks are just nasty to ppl, like in any other forum. Others work to help anyone. You seem to be doing some wishful thinking. Just because you quit doenst mean it is going to die. More stay than leave. Macs are coming, since AH wont support em. Euro are coming.
BTW..ppl who leave post their going away rants. Ppl who stay, play.
hardcase
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If you're adult try to behave like one.
Edit:This was for Mighty.
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I'd like to think I am behaving like one:-)
duh..whitey
hc
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I have never told anyone leaving ..good ridance..etc..
We have ppl leaving with 1 post on the Community Forum, meaning they never once posted asking for help. We have stopped a lot of leavings, by being patient, courteous and helpful. A lot of ppl buy the sim and don't have the computer to Fly, for example. They get told, upgrade etc. We have ppl buying 1.6 gig P4s with TNT2 M64 video cards installed and saying it is the sims fault they cant fly. Others have the systems but dont have the lastest drivers etc. Some dont know they have a firewall in xp. Some run win2k without the service pack. There are a number of suggestions that can be made to ppl and they work. I cannot change the gameplay and the gameplay can be complex, and there are bugs that piss me off. I suspend my disbelief and play on. Much like everyone does in WB and AH.
There was a new review in PC Games giving ww2ol a 70%. It was honest and someone took some time to get involved on more than a superficial level.
I fought this battle in warbirds for 4 years till it became the premier flight sim. Hating a sim is nothing new.
hc
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There are player tests that have proven that:
1. First hit gets kill, regardless of how meager the damage done. The test was conducted by a player that snuck an infantry into an airbase, and, using his pistol, pinged the tail of enemy planes. One shot, one shot only. He wound up getting 18 kills for that sortie. 18 Kills with a pistol! Sure, there were those that suggested that all 18 kills were the result of pilots crashing on take off, etc, but c'mon, 18 kills?
2. The old "park the tank behind the 109 test". Several clips of mg into aileron, lift off, fly around, nothing wrong, land, several cannon rounds into wing and tail, take off, fly around, nothing wrong, etc. They even posted screenies showing all the holes in the wings and tail that were created, and they categorically stated the 109 flew as if nothing happened. Sounds pretty seriously flawed, doesn't it?
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Who gets credit for the kill is porked. Is it a game stopper to anyone other than score potatos? Bugs are prioritized. Me, I want the graphic engine rewrite for T&L.
The control surfaces of the 109 were indeed titanium. A data bug was found and is crushed in this next release. CRS does prowl their forums.
hc
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Comon hard let it die :) . You are not going to change any minds here by arguing about the finer points of damage models.
Best just to walk away from this one, but DO keep us updated on what revisions come out. I may be back especially if a new graphics engine is in the works. The fact that I threw away US$20 for the int'l signup should indicate we aren't completely closed minded.
My update was mean't as a quickie for the guys here - not to turn into a mass flaming. You notice I did mention it was the players that made it enjoyable? There was some positive in there you know.
p.s. I DID put you down as the friend that referred me when I signed up so make sure you get that free time :)
-vlcn-
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Because around the time AH went to open beta was when IEN started diddlying over there servers. It was sometime near Xmas I believe, the servers were offline for 2-3 days at times, I emailed IEN got no support. Then their net connection got hosed when the servers were up. Someone (Funked I think) told me about AH.... boom.... I was here. Then it was flat rate vs $2.00/hour. Boom.... I wasn't a WBer no more.
Originally posted by hardcase
BTW..why do you guys fly AH and not Warbirds?
hardcase
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You're right. I will post when freebies show up. I would think crs would be happy to show the new engine off. Thanks for the referral:)
hardcase
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Gameplay works fine for me and others..and taking 45 mins to get to a battle. Sorry, but that statements tells me you really didnt have a clue how to play. Sniping with the pistol, for all i know it is true. I will try it tonight. I don't know, but check the forums and no one is posting about it. For all i know, you got your clock cleaned by someone you weren't looking at. Stating opinion as fact only influences the weak minded.
hardcase
It is fact. I said I sniped a few with my pistol and killed umm at long range and others around me told me that. I also shot guys at a similiar range with a rifle and only damaged them. I could careless about gettin killed. If it was fun the bugs wouldnt matter. But like in ah I dont rationalize the bugs, or imply folks are lying, or blame the player. Theres bugs in ah and in il2. I still have fun in both.
Thats my opinion. If you dont like dont read it. Buts its accurate and correct. My fps are fine in the game and I didnt have the ctds my squad mate did. The only "problem" I had was over large cities when trying to dog fight the fps would all around.
If you like that game so much, play it. Why are ya worried about what a few guys in AH think.
I think SW summed it up........
No, but when someone comes here and tries to tell me something that looks like toejam, plays like toejam and is as slow as toejam isn't indeed toejam, then I feel the need to post here and remind them that toejam is toejam no matter what the few "good" aspects the toejam has.
That game is toejam ............
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For me personally untill CRS gives me back the $45.00 I paid for this piece of crap bit of software that they totally misrepresnted at time of purchase. They will never get another penny outta me. You guys that love it fine love it. For the rest of us that got ripped off I would join a class action suit in a heartbeat against these rip offs. I hope they enjoy my money and spend it well. Cause there aint no more coming from me. EVER!!
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Ahh, it begins again.
Might want to talk to the publisher first.
Crs got about 5 bucks of that money.
amazinhunks and opinions.
Wotan, the game is not toejam
hc
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sure it is and your missing it right now..........
I'll check after the next upgrade and if still toejam I will say so. If it becomes a better game I will say so as well.
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lol..not toejam
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Staga my childish rant is my attempt to communicate with HC since that seems to be the only mentality he is listening to.
He comes in here and says in one post that we all have our opions of WWIIO and they are all right then turns around the next post and bashes someone for expressing their dislike for WWIIO.
He is going to keep ranting about how good WWIIO is and how stupid people are for not getting it to work on their machines Completely ignoring the fact that a lot of people having problems running the game are Knowledgeable computer users.
He'll keep ranting on how there are no problems in WWIIO even though people show proof there is.
He's a Fanboy plain and simple!
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CRS could toejam on a cracker and tell Hardcase, "it's not toejam on a cracker."
Everyone else who knows better would say, "that's toejam on a cracker."
Hardcase would spend the rest of his life going over to each person's house trying to convice them it's not toejam on a cracker.
Opinions and amazinhunks, yeah... well I still know toejam when I see it, and WW2Ol, now that is some smelly festering toejam.
-SW
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When did i say there were no problems in ww2ol? Didnt say anyone was stupid for it not working on their machines. PPl say its toejam, I say its not.
Seems to work on mine, worked on my 1.3, worked on my p3700(althought not so hot a fps) Seems there are two camp...one..it will work on their computers. Other, it won't. Now if it works on some why wont it work on others? The sims fault?
wonder how many opinions are from the launch time. Wotan's isn't but he is wrong:D
Someone post something bad about AH on ww2ol's forums,I would expect ppl to show up saying it isnt so.
hardcase
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How about posting your systems specs, when you last played, how long you played so that I will pay some attention to opinions about ww2ol. For all i know, some of you guys havent played since the launch.
Since someoone may read about it in here and decide not to bother with it, i guess I will always pop in to at least try to get critics to say more than their unsupported stuff.
Guess I am in good company in ww2ol
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HC wrote:
Seems to work on mine, worked on my 1.3, worked on my p3700(althought not so hot a fps) Seems there are two camp...one..it will work on their computers. Other, it won't. Now if it works on some why wont it work on others? The sims fault?
Hell yes it could be the sims fault!!
Jeez! You keep going back to the same crap excuse that since yours works it must be the other peoples machine and NOT the crappy program!!
There is a third camp: Ones that got it to work on their computers and found out they were screwed so they left and don't want to hear Fanboys rant about a company and program that aren't worth the smell off toejam.
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posting your systems specs,
Should be irrelevant, but I forgot... with CRS, the advertised specs are insufficient.
Buy mo' RAM!
Buy mo' CPU!
Buy mo' video!
etc...
You can pay attention to my opinion of WW2Ol, like I pay attention to yours... the game is a bug ridden cess pool, the fact that it takes so much to get going, is still very much incomplete and has more problems than a mental ward...
that should be indication that it ain't the end user, or their PC...
Concept is excellent, implementation is... appaulingly poor.
You like it great... I hate it. So do many others here. When did they have the real release date scheduled? And I'm serious, because even if they pushed it back a year... they'd still only be this far...
and even at that, I guarantee you the networking still would of been screwed just like it was at the time of launch.
They've done a lot to get it further along than it was at launch, but that still isn't saying much considering it's still a long way away from almost complete.
-SW
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Now, c'mon Hard, that just doesn't happen. I've been there when people bash AH, and I've never seen anyone really defend it. As I've said before, the AH players know better than to jump into the other school's playground, pointing fingers and yelling, "Liar!" It would be a useless exercise.
It doesn't really matter to me why you and Fishu care so much about what people think about WWIIOL- but you have to admit, whenever things are pointed out you guys are quick to minimize those faults, or deflect back to AH. AH might be flawed, but as far as I can tell no one is talking about AH, not even in comparison (at least I don't).
Take my last post to you. You asked about serious damage model issues, and I pointed out two. You minimized the first and said the second should be fixed in the next patch. Someone mentioned being shot by a pistol while in a tank, I commented that was a well-known exploit, and Fishu started talking about AH. What is the intended effect of these comments if not to minimze what everyone here is seeing?
I have absolutely no problems *at* *all* with anyone that likes WWIIOL and dislikes AH. Having played 7 months or so of WWIIOL qualifies me (I believe, perhaps erroneously) to an informed opinion. I find some things so disjarring as to yank me out of suspension of disbelief. You don't have to agree these things should or should not have this effect, but they do.
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I've seen very good posts about WWIIOL and its condition in this BB which is something you can't find from WWIIOL's bulletin board.
Also ppl in this board usually does know what they're talking about which, again, is not the case with that BB over there (there are good exceptions thought they are a usually over-run by 16 years olds and I'm not talking about Whiskeys.
Guess I should put up a heavily moderated board for wwiiol :/
(Kieran; This (http://www5.playnet.com/bv/wwiiolhq/dg_message.jsp?group_id=8863&parent_id=1597050) one just for you ;) )
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Mine isnt the only machine configuration it works on. Works for some with all the possible configs, wont work for some with the same possible configs. IF it is the sims fault, just how would they debug a problem like that?
Dont get hysterical Mighty. You think this is a rant? LOL, I have the capacity to truly rant. This isnt one. I always thought I was being quite civil. Look it up that word. You might find it illuminating.
People who played and think they got screwed? 4th group, people who played and continue to do so.
What is so funny, the things on the box that made you buy it, are only going to show up as long as ww2ol continues to update. If CRS fails, no publisher is ever going to attempt anything as complex as ww2ol. You will spend another 10 years looking for the holy grail. This is it bud.
hardcase
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...and while I am at it, let's talk about that score issue...
At some point in time rank is bound to mean something, correct? Either through posting missions or special equipment, there has to be a good reason to have rank.
But... you can't get rank unless you have successful missions. And... you can't get successful missions (at times) because you can't get kills, because some bloke put a round in the plane 10 minutes before you saw it. Flame the bad guy if you like, but you just helped the previous bloke make Colonel. So, while score means nothing to me in most games, the very premise of WWIIOL makes scoring an integral part of the game, not just bragging rights.
So you see, minimalizing the concern over "first-hit, first-kill" isn't really such a good idea, is it now?
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Sweet jebus, if WW2Ol is the holy grail, I don't want any part of it.
What is so funny is the things that were listed on that box should of been complete by the time it was released.
What's even funnier, is that people think they should be retroactively paying to essentially alpha test compiled code that should still have the debug settings running because they apparently can't get the damn game to run on two systems that are identical hardware wise, and probably software/driver wise too!
You think THAT is good? You think THAT is the holy grail?
Sounds more like toejam on a cracker to me...
-SW
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I minimized the first ,,because I am not a score potato, never was. It is trivial to me. The second is in next release what more could I say?
I have not seen a post about AH on ww2ol. Then again, I am usually in the community/help forum.
Dislike AH? Didnt play it enought to know. Only got 10 hours or so in the free 3 weeks.
The very fact that I play the sim, should tell you that no problem is so big that i would quit. That does not make me a Fan boy. Others see enought problems to trip their tolerance levels, mine is apparently higher.
As for buy mo ram etc, all launch news is so old and war weary it really shows a lack of reverence for the dead. It needed more ram, ram footprint drops with each release. More CPU, coding to keep lame voodoo 2 cards in the sim meant the graphics FPS was abysmal. CPU struggling to feed vidcards. Old news.
Again, if it works for 15000 + why didnt it work on yours?
No..the holy grail is a air land and sea war on mmolrpg with 10k ppl fighting you. That is the grail..see any other on the horizon?
hardcase
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I am a colonel in all services of both sides. It is trivial.
For CRS is probably isnt and is on the burner to be corrected.
hc
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now go with the anecdote hardcase. go with the anecdote!
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As long as I have you all here....
hc
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So if I gather you correctly, you are saying an integral part of the game concept is rather meaningless? Nothing seems wrong in that stance? Hmmm, to me this would suggest a rather large problem.
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Yeah, I know... them AMD 1Ghz Athlons, 768MB PC133 SDRAM O/cled 142Mhz), SB Live! and V5 5500s are so damn slow and pathetic....
luckily I tried it during a free trial period...
I've NEVER had any problems configuring a game to run on my system (it's no longer the aforementioned CPU and vid card) and they always work, and worked well.
If it takes me so much tweaking, while other games don't and virtually no other software (except the poorly written ones, mind you) does, then it is very evident that the fault lies within the code that was done by CRS...
A sign of good coding is a program that runs on multiple computer's with widely varying internal components, and software.
A sign of bad coding is just the opposite.
And you think the holy grail is CRS' and their game?
Looks good on paper, runs poor on computers.
Not much more to it than that.
-SW
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Staga-
Bravo! Gotta hand it to you, you are sticking it out better than I would have. If those guys don't understand NACA and the charts you are showing them, what use is it to argue?
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No...at this moment meaningless to me . I have no need to complete mission. I rarely take them. I just like shooting things.
CRS is a different story on the value of fixing any problem. Things seem to improve with each update, so I am happy. Thinking about getting a second account(which is less than one account for AH?, still 24 something?) so that I can tow my on aaa and at guns.
hardcase
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1 AH account, $14.95...
Atleast I can cite the prices for WW2Ol... $9.95, so they can repeatedly screw you up the butt...
-SW
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Your right Kieren and look who their leader is!
Colonel Fanboy!
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So AK, what was the problem exactly? That rig should have gotten 30fps at 1024..no wait..did the voodoo 5500 do 32 bit? So, what OS? Did it CTD, spiking FPS, very low FPS, fail to launch? What sound settings did you use..over 32 voices and all sound cards use cpu cycles for voices? 32 or less are best. The soundcard driver is better than the generic d3d. What were your settings..high performance, No Lock to Refresh, only texture box checked is Reduce Textures..
so..what was the problem?
hardcase
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I usually dont post mission so I really dont lead em.
hc
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Low FPS online, yes V5 did do 32bit, CTDs, random lock-ups..
and then of course the obvious, the entire flying portion is very incomplete.
Yeah, if I only fly I only play 1/3rd of the game... I am quite content with that, but was extremely dissatisfied with the entire experience.
I long since deleted that fetal mistake from my hard drive. (yes, I do mean fetal)
I'll check back in a year or so, if the game still exists...
-SW
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Off course it is incomplete.
All you did was fly? Too bad.
I like shooting flyers down. Brits are getting a 40mm Bofors and tow truck. More death.
hardcase
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No...at this moment meaningless to me . I have no need to complete mission. I rarely take them. I just like shooting things.
But... if you just like shooting things, wouldn't that be better accomplished by a game that gives you faster action?
We're dancing in circles. If you claim WWIIOL has more depth of play I would agree, except... a vital piece of what makes the game different doesn't work properly. Score IS important to the workings of the game, whether it is important to you or not personally. This point can not be minimalized, because it is central to the WWIIOL premise. Mission success = rank = success in the game.
The concept of the game was not to be another shooter, it was a game that was supposed to be designed for teamwork and goal orientation. Having a score system (upon which everything stated depends) that doesn't work is not merely an inconvenience, it is a disaster. In effect, you might just as well be playing OFP on a bigger canvas, correct?
If I accept that I shouldn't worry about score, what does WWIIOL have over a game such as BF1942? Numbers? Size? You might try to suggest physics, but I think it wouldn't be too difficult to argue that there are so many problems with the physics as implemented in WWIIOL that the term "realistic" doesn't apply. So it becomes a matter of degrees. And... if you just want to shoot stuff, wouldn't you get that faster in BF1942?
So, just what makes WWIIOL the "Holy Grail"? Demonstrably BF1942 handles transitions much better, and is graphically clearer. It has all arms, Land, Sea, and Air, and it supports multiplayer. Thousands of players? In the current iteration that is a bit of a stretch for WWIIOL. Hundreds, perhaps, not thousands.
To summarize, if score doesn't matter, how is WWIIOL better than games such as BF1942?
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As I posted, any bug in scoring is a big deal to CRS. Just not to me. I am insulated from score problems. Your agrugments are valid and I agree that any bug in scoring effects players immediately.
hardcase
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ww2ol isnt the holy grail..yet. But if it fails, I dont think any company is gonna pick up the banner of a half scale war.
If it were easy to build a war wouldn;t it have been done by now?
You think Sony or EA is gonna build something risky? 300k love those dice throw muds. I suspect it is this sim or a long dry spell before something comes to try again.
hardcase
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My Sunday outing...
Tried spawning in brussels...stuka death x4...get tank, kill stuka, wait, no more spawns of stuka, get plane death X6 even though we have tank there (he can't see it).
Log off post in community help about stuka. Restart game after long sigh.
Goto some town south of Lille, get hurricane...vulched on takeoff
get hurricane, vulched on spawn. Get AAA gun...get 110 and 109 but 2 other 110's and 109 straff me at same time and kill me.
Give up, go get 109, get owned by awesome pilot who expends all ammo on my 109 without damaging me in the slightest. Then he just toys with me. I get on his six once, and don't bother to squeeze, he just doesn't deserve it, then he reverses and owns me again but has no ammo...Utterly frustrated with plight, I nose 109 into ground and log off and play Delta force for rest of night.
I think Scope's words ring pretty true from my viewpoint. Note in particular his feelings regarding the 109 and its relative immunity to Hurricanes. No fun to be Allied, no fun to be Axis.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Straffo,
When was the last time?
You do know that games get patched, right?
Might be fixed since your last time.
Last version I used was 1.67
WWIIol as a HUGE appeal to me (I'm french you know :))
What upset me is all the potential in this game wich is badly used :(
Well, I still don't hear evidence of it being the Pak 36 :)
Quite good hit from your friend if he killed Pak 36 with R35 at 800 meters.. hehe..
They are professional WWII ol player I'm just a casual player ... far from being L337 ;)
It's cannon sucks, needs direct hit and MG in WWIIOL doesn't effect that far.
I don't understand :(
I feel AH and IL2 flight model alot different from each other..
What I've heard, they're giving new sight for 25mm..
You see.. games do get updated :)
let pray :)
At each major update I give a new try ... I wait for another update and I'll try again ...
really not concerned :D
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Straffo,
In WWIIOL rifle caliber rounds dissapears around 600-700 meters, so it can't kill Pak 36 at 800 meters and not everyone can hit such tiny target at 800 meters with R35's pea shot cannon :)
(HE blast effect.... for some reason it sucks in WWIIOL, therefore with cannons you need pretty much direct hits, except 75mm's)
How can you have played 1.67 when it's under developtment ?-)
Have you seen the screenshot of the new texturing for 1.67?
Looks tens of times more appealing to me...
Heres one screenshot of the new textures, makes it look much different, dont you think?
(http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/~wwiiolhq/panzerexplode.jpg)
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Originally posted by Fishu
How can you have played 1.67 when it's under developtment ?-)
Have you seen the screenshot of the new texturing for 1.67?
Oups ... looks like I diddlyed with version number :D
I was using last current version in fact I'll check but it should be something like 1.66 I believe ?
I'm still seriously looking at WWIIol as a replacement for AH and I strongly hope they will be able to increase FPS with the support od DX8.
I'm not anti WWIIol like some in this thread nor I'm a pro-AH,I just want to have fun after work currently AH work better than WWIIol but things can change ...
(in fact I've been supporting WWIIol from the start with a paying account ...)
It's just that some inconvenient in WWIIol are hard to overcome and I've been used to more quick reactions from the develloper (HTC support is great )
Each sims has is drawback for exemple I don't know why bomb have almost no blast effect in AH or why Hispano/12.7 can kill a panzer
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guys..guys... it's quite simple really. wwIIol hired "doc" doom.. There is no way that anything in ww2ol can be accurate. Hireing doomie also proves that those responsible don't have the brains gawd gave gophers. there is no need to even try such a sim.
lazs
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Well, what make me thinking about these WW2OL guys is that they do really think that Vulcan's report could seriosly stop us from trying WW2OL and mainly his next releases.
I believe that many AH (and WB) players try WW2OL now and then, even tho they test mainly the flight model, look at the cokpits, number of a/c types, a/c features, sky, clouds, (and online) how easy is to find dogfights, catch up with squad mates, radio communications and so on.
Many of us AH players have seen mates and whole squadrons moving there and (many) coming back. I for one opened a WW2OL account as soon as they released their first hypercrappy version. Played and beta-tested for a while then, when the air-combat part was let down, I left.
Now, I hope they will release something good, with a good graphic engine and a good flight model. No? Well, I'll stay here and enjoy the best flight sim around so far. I could enjoy a good WW2OL (in the air) even without touching a plane or a vehicle. Like I do in AcesHigh.
But so far I dont like it in the air. I dont like their cheerleders and blind fans, I dont like idiots who think that I'm not able to subscribe to another online sim just becouse an AH mate posted a (slightly) negative review. This is insulting. We cannot and dont post in their BBS, we post (in the OT section) AAR here to keep our players informed about other online sims.
So, cheerleaders, be sure that if WW2OL will roll out a decent release you'll see a lot of us there. Not becouse you are showing your ugly butt here but becouse the sim will be eventually good.
Ok, it has been a bad working day ...
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Originally posted by Oedipus
"Heres one screenshot of the new textures, makes it look much different, dont you think?"
While it may make a good screen shot what I actually see (trees, grass shrubbery) are impenetrable walls of titanium as a far as bullets and cannon go.
Erm.. the grass is penetrable by the bullets.
Trees aren't, but you can't either hide behind a tree from HE shells - hitting HE shell direclty on the tree kills the inf behind.
Besides, in AH ground clutter trees used to kill tanks with a slight touch ;)
In AH you can't shoot through surfaces at all - ground clutter trees are exception, more for the looks than functionality of the ground war.
You can shoot through zeke's paper tail and the bullet will stop there, not go through and hit the next object.
In WWIIOL you can actually shoot through units.
I've killed two A13's with one 88mm that penetrated the first A13 from side to side and penetrated the side of the second one aside it ;)
This was not to be anti this pro that.. this was an argument to show how much double stantards you had in your argument.
Gatt,
I didn't come back ;)
It's just my opinion that I prefer myself to play WWIIOL myself than AH.
It just fits more to my way of having the fun.
I just hate to see when people are using stupid arguments to put down the WWIIOL.
AH is good, but just doesnt offer the right fun for me.
WWIIOL is good on it's own play ground and offers fun for me.
I mean, theres no other game like WWIIOL.. and I really hope it will set a new path for games, so we would see more games done to 'simulate' all aspects of the battle.
Let's remember that WB has been a pioneer in the simulation business and I think AH has been a pioneer in some things as well.
WWIIOL is trying something which no other has dared to try yet.
I greatly disagree of arguing against stupid arguments and personal opinion as cheerleading.
Hardcase is cheerleading WWIIOL though ;)
Stupid arguments to slam down some game are worse than Hardcase's cheerleading.
It's pure form of stupidity.
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Cheerleading? I thought I was answering point for point.
Fanboy? Just because I can play thru the problems and enjoy myself?
Lets see ..cheerleading..I enjoy it. It has problems. I can play thru the problems. Some think it is toejam. I dont think it is toejam.
It will improve.
Sums it up.
hardcase
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The only thing I have against the way you are doing it, Fishu, is that you have a straight-across-the-board rebuttal for anything that is wrong with WWIIOL- that is, somehow AH is flawed, too.
Of course it is. But I think it is safe to assume those that play AH already know that, and the problems are pretty much recognized. OTOH, problems in WWIIOL exist too, and discussing them should not require the prerequisite comparison to AH... in fact, I patently avoid comparing the two. You may think this as a double-standard, I look at it like AH shouldn't be the measuring stick by which WWIIOL is rated, given they are two different game concepts altogether. This is the reason I feel your constant redirection to AH upon any discussion of WWIIOL problems is completely invalid. I don't feel I am the only one purposely avoiding WWIIOL/AH comparisons- they just don't apply.
But here's a bit of common sense- assuming people who post about WWIIOL have played both AH and WWIIOL (and I think that is a fair assumption) don't you think people have chosen the set of problems they'd rather deal with?
Here's more common sense- just because you can point to a similar problem in AH (compared to anything discussed about WWIIOL), does it mean the problems exist in corresponding degrees? Take graphical anomolies... It is fair to say both games have them. It is also fair to say that WWIIOL's were far worse, and in fact were used as exploits to cheat (clipping into walls? Tanks?). So, saying AH has graphic problems really doesn't negate in any way the negative impact graphic problems have had in WWIIOL, does it?
All computer games are the playground of exploiters, make no mistake of it. Often (but not always) the successful are successful because they learn the system, sometimes the successful are successful because they learn what is broken and how to abuse it. This occurs in varying degrees, but I've always had the feeling in WWIIOL that this type of behavior is not only rampant, it is to a large extent fostered and nurtured. How many times have we seen posted here and elsewhere someone relating how a squaddie showed them how to clip or otherwise cheat? If you must compare to AH, how many times have you seen such a post?
In the end I feel like people are telling you why they don't like WWIIOL and you ultimately are telling people they are wrong in what they are seeing, or that actually things are worse in AH. Yet... if people have fun in AH but not in WWIIOL, who is right, and who is wrong?
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Two things:
1. icemaw expressed exactly how I feel.
2. I'm going to do my best to start including the word "hypercrappy" in my everyday conversations.
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Stupid arguements? :D
Like EVERY pro review ever done on that crappy beta product?
Like EVERY group member I know?
They come to AH's board to 'help' us by talking up how much better it is after the last version. It's obvious they are losing players in droves and are desperate to generate some warm bodies. But wwiiol is the most dispised mmol beta ever tested. The rats have the worst reputation of any dev house, period.
I wanna see off-topic posts about developments in Target sims. They're our peers, and formed a small company with good intentions. I admire them. The rats were our peers too. That's why their betrayal was all the more painful. We won't forget their rep. Ever. It wasn't SF's fault, it wasn't the Playnet's excuse, it was rats themselves who chose cash and puffing resos, over offering the honest DL game concieved from the start.
They got greedy and deserve the rep they have. This is not the forum to hope that rep is forgotten. Too many folks here started out playing dosAW with Snail and Doc. We're not forgetting, and some of us aren't forgiving until atonement is made. This mess must not be allowed to become the norm for building games.
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Actually player numbers are increasing. Maybe that is just your wish for ww2ol;-)
perhaps words like betrayal makes me come in here.
Post a "review" and I'll pop right back in here again
"They" should rightfully included Strategy First, the publisher who has the final sayso. I agree. Worse mistake made, but then again, SF fronted the money.
Ahh..no free d/l...there it is.
It is a free d/l now. Strategy First wont let Playnet sell CD keys and a free d/l in the US. Only Europe can do that. Tell you anything about Strategy First?
PC Games has a latest review on it. Gave it a 70%. Honest and seemingly involved process.
Atone. LOL. Hurt your feelings that much?
BTW, when was the last time AH had a thread over 100:-)
Hepefully I have nver attacked AH. I didnt play it enought to know. 10 hours isnt enough time to do justice to any sim.
hardcase
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I bought and tried WWIIOL. It was as boring and tedious as tardcase and this thread.
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Hehe! "tardcase" that's a good one I gotta remember that!:p
Colonel Tardcase Fanboy!
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WW2OL is a niche and a lot of ppl will never enjoy it,even if all the probs were fixed overnight.. When I want a quick killing spree with little trouble, I still fire up Tribes 1.
Warbirds has problems, what I did play of AH, seems pretty much like WB before Stealy got a hold of it again.
tardcase
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Oh hell, its not Tardcase's and Fish's fault ... it is *our* fault cuz we are still listening and replying to them :) See ya there guys .... maybe 1.67 will make me give a look again to your aircraft and their behaviour.
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1.67 is prolly going onto a beta server. I hope that CRS will host another 2 week freebie thing.
Respond, be my willling Thrall!
JustinCase
Tardcase's bro'
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They made them release the game five years too soon. And it seems to be fatally flawed, they need put it out of it's misery and start over, that's my 2 bits .
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Fishu/Hard give it up.
If we were so anti-WW2OL then there wouldn't be the odd-AHer who revisits WW2OL, pays up, plays for a bit, then comes back to let the rest of us know how its going.
My posting (not a review), was a quick sum up of what I didn't like. It include several positives. But an overall thumbs down from me personally. It wasn't titled "The Definitive Review of WW2OL"... it is just a revisiting, an update, and an explanation of why I wasn't staying.
Its amazing the immediate draw factor it has on you guys.
Fishu, that screenshot is nice, they've taken great effort to exclude the razor thin hedges, razor thin trees, and infranty that bears a striking similarity to the AH 'Chutes' :D (especially in the way it moves with the gun stuck out like an erect... member).
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I find WWIIOL an interesting concept marred by insufferable technical issues.
Headcase
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120 thread post and we all finally agree the current version of wwiiol is toejam, right tar....er hardcase??? :D
I will check out 1.67 (I am a gluton) and if it is better then I will cry it from the mountain tops. We will see.
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The way I see it, this pro-active anti Ww2OL response is one out of fear.
AH is not perfect by any means. You enjoy it so regardless of its faults it is good.
Likewise with those who enjoy Ww2OL. None are naive to think it doesnt have problems.
Interestingly, the WW2OL community dont seem to spend all their time slamming other games around them. They recognise their own faults and thats enough for them.
Some AH's and others from other sims tho cant wait to slam WW2OL.
Seems like WW2OL, whilst still a buggy nightmare at times, continues to be considered a threat to another playerbase.
Why? Potential.
Whatever it may be now. All know what it could be. Ive little doubt that that is where I will end up when they get it right. They cant do everything and have made large inroads since their disasterous start. Give them time.
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Wrong, Spook.
Vulcan comes in and gives an unbiased report. *Immediately* two vocal members of the WWIIOL community show up and refute or minimize virtually every observation made. The rest of us respond because, quite honestly, we've seen the same things when *we* all tested the game. The reason this dragged out can be attributed as much to our stubborness in making the point we know what we saw as it can be to the two players who come here and refuse to understand that people here *have* given the game a chance, and just chose to play something else instead.
The truth is, the people making the comparisons to AH are not the AH players (for the most part). I think anyone with any amount of intelligence can see that WWIIOL is no more a threat to AH as AH is to WWIIOL. Finally, the reason you don't see many evangelizing AH on the WWIIOL BBS is the fact the WWIIOL BBS is closed to members only- something you seem to overlook. If the BBS were open and people began to go over there and post how great AH is like Hardcase and Fishu have here, you can bet your bottom dollar there would be a *ton* of AH bashing going on. I'd say it speaks highly of the lack of concern (over competition from WWIIOL) on the part of HTC and company that has allowed this type of thing to go on the way it has, wouldn't you say?
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All I can say is, after reading about the Luger thing......
I just logged off from there and the Luger is THE BEST Sniper Rifle in the German Army....bar none!!
I'm not talking, close in, self-defense weapon....oh no, I tagged 2 Brit SMG's and a Brit Rifle from across an open field. (I know, because I only shot at 3 ei and the AAR gave me credit for all 3).
Cobra
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What points. That it has bugs? Duh.......just giving my review of it
BTW..it is good to know you will "game" a sim, then find that the exploit is a real game stopper. LOL.
But when we review your sim, you come over and feel free to post anything you like.
hardcase:D
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Isnt OT open for anyone at ww2ol? Will check.
hardcase
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Unbiased?.."the only good thing there are the people". Just a backhand slap.
Maybe a lot of complex and even simple things dont work well yet, at least they are attempting it.
hardcase
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Cobra I need no verification but its good to see others have the same experience as I do.
The pistol in wiiol is the only weapon needed it seems.....
Fishu, hardcase is lying to?
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Lying about what? I rarely grunt, so I dont have any first hand knowledge. For all I know it is true. My God IT IS THE END OF THE WORLD. Why not exploit it till it is fixed..no wait...I don't do that.
Calling the producer tomorrow and see what is up.
hardcase
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Hardcase-
Not sure if that is directed at me, but... go ahead, post anti-AH stuff on the WWIIOL BBS. As I have said many times before, most AH players have the good sense not to argue the benefits of AH on the WWIIOL boards, especially after it is quite clear how people feel. Staga has shown me how he handled it, but aside from that I cannot recall a single episode where it was done.
I see it like this, I suppose- what do I care what they think about AH over there? If they like AH, they would be here, right? Sure, someone might correct an obvious wrong *once*, but beating the drum for AH over there will earn you a troll moniker real quick, agreed?
Even in your last post you are twisting and turning again. You ask "what bugs or issues?" If someone lists them your usual response is along the lines of "That? Big deal!" or "You think AH is perfect?" It gets awfully tiring.
And anyway, how is it a backslap to say "the only good thing there are the people"? That is his opinion, and one he is entitled to have I might add. SW called the game toejam, you said it isn't. You were so quick to point out that it is toejam in his mind but not everyone else's. Doesn't it seem possible that Vulcan, who also qualified his remarks as his viewpoint, could really believe the people are the best part? Of course it's possible.
See, now you are crossing the line into the absurd. It's one thing to correct errors in a review; it's another matter altogether to tell people here how they should think. That's the undertone I've always taken from you and Fishu on this topic, though I hoped I was reading you wrong.
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BTW, just checked, and even the OT in WWIIOL is for members only.
And please, don't tell me I am wrong or don't have something set right.
(http://www.nlcs.k12.in.us/deckardb/proof.jpg)
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Sorry Spook but that's a load of crap!
The only fear I have is that CRS will try to make another game!
Damn Colonel Tardcase Fanboy what DO you do in WWIIO?
You don't grunt you don't fly do you only tank?
If so how the hell did you get the rank of Colonel?
Wait never mind I really don't care.
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Sorry, you misunderstood or I wrote it poorly. I was not gonna write anything about AH. I am not vidictive and I dont know enough about AH to give it a indepth review. I was saying IF someone did, no matter what they said I would welcome anyone's posting in OT. I dont know if OT is locked or not.No way for me to tell.
Yes, The only good thing in there......seemed a tad harsh:D
No good thing at all? Seemed close minded even if you didnt think you were. I could not let that go unchalleged.
I have a post in beta about the Luger thing. It might be old news and I am out of the loop. If a bug, I would guess the bullet drop is not working and coupled with the unwavering firing stance makes a laser out of it. No one would want that to stay in. Seems the kind of bug that you have to work at to find it. It should be easily tested in beta.
Hardcase
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Actually Mighty I fly and I fly very well. I like to think I fly with some of the best.:D I do rifle, SMG,sapper, tank,truck,Boat,AAA,88, BUFF, CAS, Stuka DiveBombing is really a hoot. soon I will be killing armor with my 40mm Bofors towing it with the Brit Truck designed for it.
hardcase
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Ummm Spook, you must be a chick, because you use a lot of womens logic.
If we (the AH community) perceived WW2OL as a threat, why would someone like me, fork out US$20 to sign up, spend one night configuring the keymappings (its not a bad thing, just the effort makes the game better). And then spend a good 10 days of hard out play?
There was no 'slamming' til a couple of fans showed up trying to deny some of the points I saw.
Bugs are fine, but bugs like the Luger-sniping are game breakers.
IF I found WW2OL was enjoyable for me I would have continued my subscription as well as my AH subscription. Where it let me down was simply the front end, ie, the graphics and animation. My main comparisons were with BF1942 and OFP, two different games but games which I think some of the features of WW2OL should aspire too. Speaking of OFP, whoever said WW2OL had a 5km vis range, I did some checking based on real world scales, at a push it might hit 2km but based on visuals of tanks I saw from building tops I'd say its more like 1.5 km effective.
I hardly see why any AH player would consider WW2OL a threat. One is a Flight Sim, the other is a Tank/Infantry sim.
I don't think there have been the signifcant 'inroads' since the first release (I was in the last round of beta).
WW2OL had potential a year ago. Now it has potential - a crapload of people who bought it and ditched it. Meanwhile a few hundred thousand zit faces geeks are picking up copies of BF1942 and filling up servers around the world. Its a different league but the same 'potential' player base is being grabbed by EA while CRS piss the potential away.
Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
The way I see it, this pro-active anti Ww2OL response is one out of fear.
AH is not perfect by any means. You enjoy it so regardless of its faults it is good.
Likewise with those who enjoy Ww2OL. None are naive to think it doesnt have problems.
Interestingly, the WW2OL community dont seem to spend all their time slamming other games around them. They recognise their own faults and thats enough for them.
Some AH's and others from other sims tho cant wait to slam WW2OL.
Seems like WW2OL, whilst still a buggy nightmare at times, continues to be considered a threat to another playerbase.
Why? Potential.
Whatever it may be now. All know what it could be. Ive little doubt that that is where I will end up when they get it right. They cant do everything and have made large inroads since their disasterous start. Give them time.
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But Hard, you heard how he found out- word of mouth. That is not uncommon for the game. You must not read the BBS too much, because this kind of thing gets kicked around there all the time. I don't even play that game now and I know about it. That's where my point about there being exploiters in every game comes from- there are cadres of people that will not only work to find such things, but will do their utmost to use these finds to their illicit advantage. Trouble with WWIIOL is that it has more than its share of possible avenues for exploitation.
That *does* make such items show-stoppers, because you soon realize you cannot apply real-world tactics, because someone can (and does) cheat their way around you. Once that spectre raises its ugly head, you have a serious problem, because MMOG players want to feel as though they are on some sort of level playing field. You know, the same physics, the same laws of reality.
Maybe you really are just a casual WWIIOL player, maybe this stuff doesn't matter to you (though hardly unlikely, given the amount of energy you spend defending it) but if the basic premise of the game is to have a world where everything is as "real" as it can be, where you have combined arms that must be coordinated, where goals can only be accomplished with teamwork, and where rank enhances your ability to effect your will in the game, how can exploits and exploiters not be an issue?
It's like that over and over... whether it is score, clipping, unequal damage model, etc. Not one of them alone is enough to destroy the sim, but taken together they begin to add up.
-
The forum is hosting by HQ.wwiionline.com
:( It was probably closed during the blistering that went on the first 6 months. I think it should be open and you guys post in there. Interchange of ideas is always good, dont you think:D
hardcase
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well fishu called this pistol sniping basical a lie that we made up or were to stupid to realize what was happening.
In your reply to me you said "I must have got my clock cleaned" and not known what shot me (even though I never claimed to be pistol sniped).
What do think people think when they type their experience in wwiiol and you and others reply what basically equates to "you are wrong, you are lying, you dont what you doing".
Thats the same line the the rats and other wwiiol fan bois throw out when anyone points out things like this.
Face it, thats the party line, "it not the game, its you".
Gimme break, either these things happen or we are lying. Dont beat around the bush.
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Yes, I do agree about exchange of ideas, but I don't think AH'ers posting there would be welcome in the least. I honestly believe it would get quite ugly in a hurry.
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When I am on the forum I am in the Community Help Forum. Unless I am totally out of the loop, I have not heard a word. If it is old news I could be out of the loop. We can problly setup a test on the beta server..Keeps out the riffraff:)
I am not casual, but they are not enough for me to take away my 9.95 support for the sim. I was in the first 15 beta group and I have dealt with the sim since June 2000. I enjoy the fight.
Like I said, I can take the bugs. I've have seen bugs "the likes of which GOD has never seen".:D I am playing till it or me dies.
The RPG underlying the sim is not one of my big passions. I flew Warbirds for 6 years with little or none of an RPG layer. It is not the Thing to end all Things for me.
For now I will be more careful when I am an Allied INF:)
hardcase
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We have been in WW2OL long enougt to know that the one that kills you is the one you don't see. Someone else having shot you was valid possiblity. There was no setup to do a definitive test. One guy telling me the luger is a laser, it couuld have been a mistake. Others telling me, I have got an inquiry started with a post in beta forum. I am not blind to the warts. But there can be other explanations for anomalies.
Since I had never heard of the luger snipe, I, quite possibly, wrongly assumed it was a newbie getting his clock cleaned by someone else he wasnt paying attention to.
hardcase
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heh, like ..WW2OL is a piece of toejam, the crs guys are traitors, tardboy is a fanboy..tame..so tame
hardcase
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One more thing my point about pistol sniping isnt that pistol shots shouldnt kill, altough they seem easier to aim then the rifle (opinion here) its that at similiar distance with the rifle I got "damaged" where by 1 pistol hit I got a kill. Also, with the rifle I was able to walk up behind a brit smg and at real close range fire 3 rounds into his back to have him turn round and smg me.
This happened to my squad mate brady took it to the bbs there
http://www5.playnet.com/bv/wwiiolhq/dg_message.jsp?
Basically hes told its lag but still pretty crappy. But how come pistol shots drop umm?
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Just got one post back. It is VERY OLD news..and the other pistols are just as accurate. This seemed to have popped up when I wasn in the hospital and off the net for a month.
My apologies. There are recoil fixes coming is all that I know for now.
Those that play haved lived with it for a long time. Prolly will continue. If it is too much for you to play then there is not much I can say.
If accurate enough I would think a pistol shot in the head would pretty much hurt your guy.
hardcase
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nah that alone aint too much its the gameplay :D
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Perhaps in time the play will be what you want. I will always post about freebies.
hardcase
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Kieran,
When I refer to AH issues, it is only to point out how much double stantards someone has put over the two games - he can stand similar kind of bugs in one game, but not in the other and uses it as a ranting point.
Like for example this where one person complained of titan walls, he was wrong about the grass and for those parts which it is true, is exactly same way in other games too.
Just can't shoot through walls or trees with LAWs etc.
Vulcan,
Talk about 2d sprite trees in AH ;)
or somewhat ugly hangars or razor sharp & clean mountains....
erm wait... whats the difference again?
Wotan,
lying about what?
I didn't call pistol sniping a lie... I'm suspicious of it being exactly like people tells it being.
Lie refers were to other issues.
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What he said!
hardcase
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actually the trees in AH are 2 x 2D to give at least a bit of depth. The terrain is itself not that as rolling as it could be, true. However, the question I have to ask is... what is the relevant importance of these features in a Flight Sim as compared to a Land Combat Sim.
When I'm flying my tiffie past trees in AH at 400 kias, they look good enough to be emmersive. When I crawl along a treeline thats razor thin in WW2OL, thats not immersive.
Please post a picture of beautiful hangar. I completely understand what you mean by an ugly hangar, but I am at loss to even find a real life hangar I find mildly attractive.
Fishu, you defend WW2OL by comparing apples and oranges.
Originally posted by Fishu
Vulcan,
Talk about 2d sprite trees in AH ;)
or somewhat ugly hangars or razor sharp & clean mountains....
erm wait... whats the difference again?
Wotan,
lying about what?
I didn't call pistol sniping a lie... I'm suspicious of it being exactly like people tells it being.
Lie refers were to other issues.
-
this discussion leads to nothing IMO.
Until another similar Project like ww2online comes to
life, THEN you can compare it. But there is no other
24/7 world war two online simulation out there, so
right now its ´like it or not´ ;)
-
Kieran,
When I refer to AH issues, it is only to point out how much double stantards someone has put over the two games - he can stand similar kind of bugs in one game, but not in the other and uses it as a ranting point.
Like for example this where one person complained of titan walls, he was wrong about the grass and for those parts which it is true, is exactly same way in other games too.
Just can't shoot through walls or trees with LAWs etc.
I've already addressed this point a few times in the thread... a game-killer in AH is not necessarily a game-killer in WWIIOL, and vice-versa. Example: Score means nothing in AH, but it means everything in WWIIOL. Score is broken in both games. In AH, if score doesn't work right you may not get to ride a perk plane as quickly. In WWIIOL, you don't make rank- which means you can't post missions, probably won't have access to better equipment, can't set up defense or offensive operations, etc. Your destiny is controlled by others, you can't simply ignore the implications. It is NOT a double-standard to point out scoring as a major flaw of WWIIOL.
As for the razor-thin trees and grass... now, c'mon, you know a sniper in a tree can retreat to the safety of the leaves and not be shot. If you can't see the guy, you won't be shooting through the leaves, because the bullets will not penetrate the canopy. AH has no equivalent concern, so how can this be a double-standard?
See?
And honestly, I think you can assume people know what issues AH has and how they balance out in game play vs. the way they work out in WWIIOL. You grossly oversimplify the relationship of the bugs to game issues when you continuously say "Well, AH has that too... sorta".
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Kieran,
There are valid flaws, but also alot of invalid flaws pointed out, which kind of flaws also exists in either majority of the games or in AH for example - which most people in these boards and in this thread plays.
Many flaws pointed out of WWIIOL are outright double stantardized - some pointed out double stantardized flaws would make person unable to like majority of the games, but for some reason the person does only mind it bad in WWIIOL.
Oedipus,
Would you please read what you wrote and actually play WWIIOL?
You can shoot through the bushes in WWIIOL.
Just not through the branches of trees
but really think about it: in what game can you actually shoot through the branches? I wouldn't classify AH trees into it, they aren't quite the same generally.
In the majority of games a piece of paper goes for a bullet/explosion proof vest. (and that same applies even more for the branches)
You don't really want to shoot branches in real life either - bullets tends to divert from the path when going through branches.
So I can't agree with those being a drawbacks over other games.
You're not only claiming crap, but keeping up big double stantards.
Eh? what for should I be spitefull and jealous? I've played AH and dropped playing it when I didn't find my kind of fun it, but I'm neither dissing it BS arguments or so.
So what exactly is the jealousy here?
AH seems to be pretty much the comparison point in the discussion and therefore I can also use it to prove the double stantards people are having in their arguments.
Read this: I'm NOT trying to deflect critisicm by referring to AH.
Read from above why I'm referring to AH in times.
The more you claim things about me, the more you're becoming guilty of the things you accuse me with.
Isn't that sort of... proving me right about you?
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Preach on Oedipus!
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I really can't state it any clearer than I already have.
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lets see, wonder how many time the thin trees stopped the gameplay. When everyone has 2 gig as standard the trees wil flush out. I just dont see how you can fault the infantry game for just having trees that are not always fully flushed. The sniper trees have 4 sided trucks and multipul leaf layers for sniping . The thinner ones we use as cover. You want to snipe out of every tree? There are numerous "holes" in ground cover to fire thru. The fact that there is an online sim that lets you play infantry isnt enought to take your fixation with flaws away. Too bad. You are missing some interesting fights.
Frying Tiger and crew will improve the graphics as a couple of gigs are standard for a cpu.
I think this really boils down to ...you play what you do best....I suspect AH flight simmers dont do well for a couple of weeks and lose interest. They dont spend much time in the ground game or play with others. Flight simmers are notoriously lone wolves. Loneing doesn't do well in ww2ol in the ground game and a new flight sim always has a learning curve. Bing HS in AH might like being NOT HS in ww2ol :D
You want good stuff with low rank. Take a mission. There is nothing you cant have in a mission than you can have in rank. Posting missions does not help your rank as of yet.
It just rings false that the handgun prob, thin trees, or any of the other faults you find would render this sim worthless. You fly AH and I suspect it has numerous faults that ppl overlook because they enjoy the sim. Flight in ww2ol is only a part of the whole. Flight in AH is all there is.
squeakin about climbing a sniper tree and not have every leaf coded. Asking more of WW2 than another sim? :)
hc
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I disagree with lame soldiering. Might be more like lame playing. Does that ever come into discussion? I guess it should be like some standalones with 32 player capacity to play the moment it comes out of the box with no learning curve. NO curve, no gain.
I am beginning to hear that the real problem is that it is not easy to play from the beginning as some other Combined Arms Massive Mulitplayer Online RPG sim....no wait..there isnt one! :D
hardcase
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Here is the bottom line. You cannot have a free squeak about ww2ol in an OT forum so that you can try to influence others from trying it. Want to post 'reviews' perhaps you should do it in a closed forum where rebuttal isnt allowed. ..Before you crank up on our OT being locked, I totally disagree with that. Lots of ppl have played AH in ww2ol and not renewed for pay for play. Same on this sim. That doesnt make either of them..shit, turd,worthless,built by traitors and theives and greedy SOBs. Say what you like, just dont expect to say it for free.
hardcase
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Sorry, It is not a POS. I have dealth with Hatch and rats long before WW2OL. A lot of ppl have tried and stayed. So your argument only means YOU had a problem with it. Not that it is a POS.
Why I even flew warbirds when HT and Pyro ran it,as a trainer.
TURF?..roadkill...Perhaps this is what it is about.
As long as this forum is open and someone wants to take cheap shots at ww2ol I'll be around.
hardcase
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Man...
Whatever I can provide you are blowing out of context. One of you says "trees and bushes don't block shots", one of us says, "yes it does, and here's proof", the other of you says "big deal". Then once we pin that down, we get the "AH has problems too" routine for a while. We're just doing circles here.
Whatever list I could provide for you, all of which would be true, you will continue to deny, minimalize, or deflect. You aren't discussing the issues, you are telling us we are wrong. That is annoying to say the least. Whether or not the problems we see there exist here is moot; if it bothers us there, it bothers us there, and there doesn't have to be a concrete reason why. See, it's the whole personal opinion thing. The way you are coming off, we are allowed to have a personal opinion if it happens to agree with yours.
I don't want to make you stop liking WWIIOL, like away. It is insulting to have you continuously suggest that players don't know what they are seeing or that they are just wrong. Yes, some people are mistaken in the things they think they are seeing, but there have been far too numerous examples of people conducting controlled tests that confirmed exactly what others had claimed. So the pattern is deny, deny, deny, minimalize, deflect.
Maybe you are right to some extent about the type of player that exists in AH, maybe not. I played for over seven months total, most recently for about six weeks this summer. I was never outflown in that time- in fact, aerial combat in WWIIOL is ridiculously easy. Killing is another matter, if you are Allied going after LW. Still, I can LW and rack up 6-10 kill sorties routinely, and saddle any enemy in the LW ranks until they run or die when I am Allied. Does that mean I gave the air war sufficient time to sort out what is fun and isn't, what is good and what isn't? I think it does. Frankly, your assessment of AH players that dislike your game sounds like elitist BS from my perspective.
You say you are not evaluating AH, but you are, because you are trying to convince us how much better WWIIOL is in comparison, even after you admit spending no more than a week in AH. Notice the absence of posters trying to convince you you are wrong about AH?
Finally, you act as though the three issues you just mentioned were the only negative things you ever heard about the game. Holy Cow! No, my friend, they are but part of a long litany of items, and it grows more tiresome to rationally explain them and their import to a person who is merely going to say, "Nope, not true", or
Big deal", or "AH has problems too".
"My" opinion is that WWIIOL is crap in its current condition, for reasons too numerous and pervasive to enumerate to a person who really doesn't care to discuss or consider the points. It is an opinion that is shared by several people, including most members of this board apparently, and it is a view I am entitled to hold as 100% accurate for me. It is an opinion that is shared by more and more members of your service, too, judging by the posts on your BBS.
We don't get a free ride for posting stuff that might keep people from trying? Fine. You don't get a free ride for posting blatant and false propaganda on a competitior's BBS. I will continue to post the truth, truth that by the way is easily verifiable by controlled tests by community members. You can continue to pretend you don't know about these tests or the results. Shall I post links to such tests when the question arises? Will the people here be able to discern who is telling the absolute truth and who is stepping over the turds in the path?
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I'm just disagreeing with blantant POS. As for the problems, do you think I am going to stop playing it? You dont stop playing AH, do you? The bugs have not stopped the game no matter how much wishfull thinking is going on in here. You point out bugs I'm impressed. Point em out, but your "review' seemed more like a bug hunt than an attempt to play. If you didnt enjoy it.. say so and I will try some counterpoint. Bugs, I have played games with bugs for years, arent you doing so now. Many of us think AH might be a tad arcadeish, but that doesnt make it a POS.
Anyway, you can post all those bugs and I will continue to minimize em, cause I continue to play. So, to me, they are ignorable. You must be one sensitive guy. :D
hardcase
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Maybe I don't enjoy playing because the bugs keep cropping up?
If games are houses, WWIIOL is a rotting, condemned, cockroach-infested tenement.
And maybe you can't accept that because you are turning a totally blind eye to all in a single-minded pursuit of a comped account? You must be one avaricious guy. ;)
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If games are houses, WWIIOL is a rotting, condemned, cockroach-infested tenement
Totally disagree. I find it quite interesting and varied. It has bugs, but I find the game has more to offer and that the bugs dont make it a non starter. Then again, I am actually good in it.
hardcase
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The vast majority of people that bought WW2OL think it's a POS. How many bought the POS, how many are left?
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Sorry, nice try, I pay for my account.
hardcase
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
But there is no other
24/7 world war two online simulation out there, so
right now its ´like it or not´ ;)
Yes, there is. The CT.
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Well maybe it will survive on us "minorities" Majority of gamers are casual, dont have a clue about their computers, have short attention spans, must have something new every week and think any 32 multiplayer game is the coolest thing in the world.
Killer never expected it to be more than a niche sim. It was always considered too involved for most casual gamers.
hardcase
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BTW, the Mac guys are coming in November...then they can choose between AH and ....no wait....
hardcase
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Kieren give it up!
It does no good to argue with a Fanboy and you know it.
Facts mean nothing to them cause they can alter them or ignore them to their benifit. All he's trying to do is to sucker some other newbies into that POS so they can keep it going another month.
Colonel Tardcase Fanboy no matter what you say in my opinion WWIIO is the biggest piece of toejam I've ever seen.
So do us all a favor and take your BS posts back to the kiddy UBB you came from.
Oh Yeah! Here is my response to your next 10 BS post I know are coming:
STFU! You lying piece of Fanboy Scum!!
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Kiddie UUB?..ahh...you would seem to fit in there if that is the case.
STFU! You lying piece of Fanboy Scum.
Impressive, for a child. That the best you have?
flicks the fly away.
hardcase
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Have your opinions, say what you will. Others think differently. You guys really getting all heated up. Mighty wants to be your friend Keiran.
hardcase
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No post will go unchalleged or refuted. Keep em up guys. You dont like it..I do. You keep telling yourself how fortunate you are to not be playing it.
hardcase
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OK odei..you dont have to play any freebie.
hardcase
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hardcase, do you sex your computer while playing WW2OL?
Is that why are you called hardcase?
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Stop spamming our board.
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No..when i signed on warbirds in 95 I needed a login name and had just seen a movie called Hardcase. Then in warbirds the flying id was the first four letters of your login so I became
hard, then =hard=
Seems as good as any for an ID.
Oh, you wanted to somehow insult me....ahh..you sorta gave your age away with that one tho.
hardcase
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Are you getting upset hardcase? It seems like you are getting upset.
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Hmm....spam. You could ask Dale to close it off. Then again I am answering post as they show up.
Son, I am too old to let this be even remotely real. I have done this for years. Warbirds was once the ww2ol of flighy sims. Everyone wanted to be in the really cool side and slam it.
hardcase
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Are the invisible people posting to you hardcase? Are you sure you're feeling okay? I think you spend more time on the AH BBS then you do playing WW2OL. Are you lonely?
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I asked Felicia if i was lonely. She said I wasnt. You can come over and see tho. What makes you think I am not playing ww2ol? I have a little network here. This is the 2.1 amd. Thinking about getting another account so that I can tow my bofors without waitingn for a tow.
hardcase
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Why is this such a crusade for you? Is it boredom? Seriously.
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It is not a crusade. This is more of something that needs to be done. Why would you like to beg the argument by calling what I am doing a crusade. Very poor logic.
Try again.
hardcase
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Tell me how to recoup my $40 initial box price spent at KMart on the incomplete beta release that drove me away tardcase. You obviously have a interest plan on the $40 we invested? Spout away little chirper.
Unfortunately your responces here are merley to impress yourself. Your not clever though.
Still, don't let any post go unchallenged, I expect more of the same drivel.
Explain why WWIIOL was a hideous, bloated, bug ridden pre-release failure, with the lofty goals, only to be met maybe in years of 100 meg+patches, made even more criminal by false advertising.
Tell me why I read the box as many others did, and were robbed out of $40 by false advertised lies to support the sinking ship in it's initial release?
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Heh, always the launch, go on beat it to death again. I have no excuses for the launch.
Sinking ship. always the assumptions.
harcase
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Originally posted by hardcase
It is not a crusade. This is more of something that needs to be done. Why would you like to beg the argument by calling what I am doing a crusade. Very poor logic.
Try again.
hardcase
cru·sade Pronunciation Key (kr-sd)
n.
3. A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse
Sounds about right to me.
You try again.
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You seem to think I give a rats bellybutton if YOU dont play ww2ol. Just balacing the books in here and now having some fun.
hardcase
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So refunding me $40 now is a good biz move?
Or will they just steal it, and keep it?
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Originally posted by hardcase
Heh, always the launch, go on beat it to death again. I have no excuses for the launch.
Sinking ship. always the assumptions.
harcase
Why would you need excuses. It's not your fault. You didn't make the game, you have nothing to do with it.
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BTW most of us have written you off as possible players. I dont expect to change one mind in here.
hardcase
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Originally posted by Creamo
So refunding me $40 now is a good biz move?
Or will they just steal it, and keep it?
I think you will find they spent it...probably within an hour of your purchase.
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Curval, the publisher gets the lion share of any profits. The producers get a minimal amount. Now Strat First will not let CRS sell keys in the US to play. Oh well, Euro is coming in and well as the aforementioned Mac release.
For what is it worth, all us beta guys said it wasnt ready, crs said it wasnt ready, strategy first liked June 6th as a launch date.
hardcase
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Originally posted by hardcase
BTW most of us have written you off as possible players. I dont expect to change one mind in here.
hardcase
So you just come here to stir watermelon up and cause trouble? That's pretty mean spirited isn't it.
Who is this "us" you speak off. Do you think you are part of the CRS "Team" or something?
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No I came in here when there was a "review" that seemed a tad biased. I didnt start this thread but I can stay till it is finished.
hardcase
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Originally posted by hardcase
No I came in here when there was a "review" that seemed a tad biased. I didnt start this thread but I can stay till it is finished.
hardcase
Oh but you didn't stop there did you. If you had you could hardly call yourself a crusader, fighting for your "Gods" in this holy war, CRS.
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Us is beta guys, players, probably rats. We do discuss you guys, but rarely on a forum. Something about arcade.
hardcase
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Gods and holy war..jeez you guys like hyperbole. Still going with the crusade motif? Making some popcorn now.
hardcase
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You are here to not change minds...? Duh. It's been obvious you are here to impress yourself, which ironically is laughable.
Back to the point, so publishers are to blame for CRS to code such hideous crap?
They'd release anything, true, but I think CRS ought to have a viable product to present to them, at least in a professional company would.
Point is, they didn't get their super 'sim to end all sims' complete, (by about a humiliating 3 years at least), and I don't have any loyalty to any games.
CRS just stole my $40, and if tardcase digs it, that's cool. Just enjoy it enough that you don't sit here 20 hours a day hitting "refresh" like it's your little AOL chatroom.
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Originally posted by hardcase
Gods and holy war..jeez you guys like hyperbole. Still going with the crusade motif? Making some popcorn now.
hardcase
You don't think your actions on this board could be considered, a vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse?
Sounds like a damn go discription to me. Would you argee, yes or no?
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Just starting reading your General Forum. You guys got major probs two, huh? ...and yet you continue to play and defend it.
hardcase
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Hiya Hardcase! Thought I'd drop in and see what a 198 count post was like :) Just don't let these boys get to you, you have to remember that AH fans put up with plenty of AGW abuse during its first couple years, they just "learned from the best" on how to insult fanboys on the BBS. ;)
Hope all is well over in your part of the world. Cya around.
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a go description. Crusades need passion I would think. You have me confused with someone who cares if you play or not. Review it, it becomes another story. A good review can be found in PC Games. Flaws and all, it got 70%. Not perfect, not a POS.
Crusade, no
I could prolly do a lot better attacking if this were a crusade.
hardcase
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Every clever intended responce you try, Im getting a image of a dog watching TV tardcase.
Have some respect for yourself.
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Hiya rip:-) Doing quite well. Me and AH boys are just chatting. I really like the ones are so pissed:D
hardcase
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Creamo..i dont care if you play or not. BTW wasnt the logo of a dog watching the victrola?
hardcase
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Originally posted by hardcase
Hiya rip:-) Doing quite well. Me and AH boys are just chatting. I really like the ones are so pissed:D
hardcase
Hehe, Rgr, watch out for the barbless hooks, they usually have artificial worms too. ;)
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In deed, btw this thread is second only to ..Historical Gameplay? in the general forum. Guess they have some issues with gameplay. Just not gamestoppers.
hardcase
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Off to check on the new beta. If you guys want to continue, keep on posting. I really plan on having the last one:D
hardcase
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Originally posted by hardcase
In deed, btw this thread is second only to ..Historical Gameplay? in the general forum. Guess they have some issues with gameplay. Just not gamestoppers.
hardcase
Nah, thats an old thread from over a year ago when AW crowd came over...someone punted it recently.
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Looked real to me and has 308 posts. You dont have any gameplay issues?
rip..cc
nm
There are no gameplay issues..yeah..right..lol.
later
hardcase
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Thread summary:
Post: "I tried it again and still don't like it"
Reply: "You're wrong"
What amazes me is that hardcase can't figure out why he looks so silly.
AKDejaVu
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I never said ppl wont like it.lots dont like it..dont care too much about the reasons..jsut seems that POS wasnt a valid review.
Big diff posting on public boards I dont like it..here is why...
and I dont like it..it is a turd, pos
CRS can prolly do without any players from AH. Shame tho if someone reads a biased review and decided not try it cause they think it is the only opinion.
hardcase
hardcase
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Originally posted by hardcase
Crusades need passion I would think.
You write dispassionatly, or at least you did. That doesn't mean you aren't persuing your crusade vigorously and passionately.
You keep on going on about how the game is better...now. How it was bad...then. One think hasn't changed and that is the character, or lack there of, of the disingenuous jerks that made the game.
Here is some hardcase logic for you, "But SF and Playnet were bastards to, so CRS wasn't.
Where do you come up with this stuff. You come here, Mr. Beta team wannabe, to thick to realize you are championing a group of people that diddlyed some of us.
I guess you are just to think to realise it.
"But...But, it's a good idea."
LOL!
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Why is this such a crusade for you? Is it boredom? Seriously.
For some it seems to be crusade to rant down WWIIOL, to divert people away from WWIIOL and not let them use their own judgement.
The mentality currently in here is: "I think so, he thinks so, so you also have to think alike"
I wonder why people has to rant about games they don't play and it even seems like they're trying to divert people away from the game, because alot of people along himself thinks it's POS game.
There are lots of people also who thinks WWIIOL is far better in creating fun for them than many other games that this party likes who thinks WWIIOL is a POS.
(or then play same games even so)
Worst is the lies and double stantards, I really.. really.. don't see a point for it.
No, I don't mean all the arguments, but anyone with common sense can see there are outright lies and/or double stantards in certain arguments (.. rants?).
Creamo,
Do you know how many times during the years I've been dissapointed at the hype and promises of the game publishers?
I've been from long ago immune to the hype and promises, only trusting on that what I see and feel about it.
All I'm saying is that it's better to trust your instincs and base it on your opinions, not on anyone else promises, reviews or rants.
When you ignore the hype and promises by the publishers, you will have much different view into the games.
I look to games as games, not as 'what they're said to be', since it's often a false impression.
If those aren't fun, goodbye.. if I find fun, well good.
Thats the story I've had with WWIIOL.. I haven't had expections based on the hype or promises, but followed my own nose - what do I like?
WWIIOL has pros and cons, but some of the pro's just keeps me intrested.
It might not do that for you, but really... whats the purpose of ranting and trying to talk people away from the game?
It's not like you're going to loose anything if people goes and tries it.
It's neither really good idea to try make someone dislike game hes having fun playing - it just isn't going to happen, no matter how much you call the guy by names and accuse him of things.
(Neither am I trying to convince people here that they're wrong with their rants and they should like WWIIOL, but some rather bad arguments makes my blood warm and counter it)
Publishers usually are the root of evil here.
Like Hardcase said, the usual thing in the gaming world happened: Publisher insisted it to be ready now, even though everything was against it.
Heck, that has happend with tens and tens of games - some has been buried six foot deep, but some has become very popular after fixes (Falcon 4 anyone?)
WWIIOL has the good thing it that the same team who made it, is also totally focused for updating the game, unlike with many other games which are released too early - the developers will be already working on another project and only minor resources are used to update the game.
So I do believe it has hope and I hope so too, since it is something many will be missing for it's uniqueness of attempting to simulate all aspects of the battle.
Something I've looked for a long time - WWIIOL made it the first, and most likely there will be no other for very long time... for years to come?
The reply to Creamo is more of a general reply to people in this thread.
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God Tardcase I thought my 10 STFU's would have at least covered you for 1 day but I see I'm already 15 behind.
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Fishu, are actually implying that it's the victims fault that CRS lied and screwed them over?
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Don't worry, I'm not going to pay for AH. It does have gameplay issues, flight issues, gunnery and it seems very arcade like. I didnt read that forum..only the thread lead and that was a mistake. I will read others tho.
Fishu, are actually implying that it's the victims fault that CRS lied and screwed them over?
amazing..first game he ever bought with problems.
hardcasse
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You seem to think I give a rats bellybutton if YOU dont play ww2ol.
Now this is the "civil" Hardcase I remember whisking players out the door when I played initially. Something about "wheat from the chaff", correct? I didn't call you on that lie higher in the thread, but I clearly remember it.
Now there can only be so many reasons you can be here...
1. You want some of us to play the game... no, wait, you and the developers have already written us off.
2. You want to correct the mistakes in the review... no, wait, that review was an opinion and therefore exempt from correction.
3. You want to stir up trouble... no, wait, you say you aren't here to start trouble.
4. You want to crusade for WWIIOL... no, wait, you say you aren't crusading.
Could you clearly illucidate just why you are here far beyond when common sense should have told you the people here have said, "No thanks, really"? Could it be that you are thoroughly enjoying a venue you know your beloved team hasn't the balls (and I do remember how much care you folks expressed over the 'balls of CRS') to provide? You pretended not to know the OT was closed there, just like everything else. You pretend not to know aberrations that even the most neophyte player knows. You pretend not to see the things that are glaringly obvious. Tell me, how can YOU provide an unbiased review, or how can YOU tell us when we've seen one. You play the game, yet you seem to not play the game.
Interesting you should mention you are online having fun while typing this stuff to us... very funny. That's action? Hehe, in AH, I never have the time to pop out and start hammering another game's BBS... I'm too busy having fun playing AH. Perhaps CRS should include a BBS within the game for guys "having fun" to swap recipes, child-care tips, and home decoration books. (Sorry for the stolen concept, Lazs.) ;)
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It still is wheat from chaff. All sims are wheat from chaff..I am AH chaff. I am ww2ol wheat.
I really dont care if you play or not, dont care if you like it or not.
It is a turd ..still doenst strike me as a simple opinion
Nice try, I am sitting in a hurri..waiting for morning.
ww2ol is slower paced at times than say AH....just the nature of war.
hardcase
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Tardcase wrote:
BTW most of us have written you off as possible players. I dont expect to change one mind in here.
So if you are not in here to change our minds then the only reason you are here is to cause problems.
HMMM! STFU! isn't working so why don't we try "Hurry Up and Die You Stupid Lying No Good Piece of Crap Crs Butt Kissing Low Life Fanboy Retard!".
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Originally posted by hardcase
amazing..first game he ever bought with problems.
Lies hardcase, they're called lies.
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No such thing as bad publicity!! +)
SKurj
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Swept you out? Weren't you posting..POS, Turd even then? If I remember correctly you were very unhappy but didnt seem to want to do anything but squeak. I had gotten to the point of not caring if you and ppl who could do nothing but totally slam the sim left or not.So, you were going to leave and I said ..wheat from chaff....I still believe I made the better choice.
Pretty sure your post were nasty enough no one cared. Much like they still are.
Hardcase
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HMMM! STFU! isn't working so why don't we try "Hurry Up and Die You Stupid Lying No Good Piece of Crap Crs Butt Kissing Low Life Fanboy Retard!".
Excellent!
hc
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damn! Didn't work!
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Oedipus,
Once again you're guilty of what you've accused others of..
You just can't keep out of accusing other people of certain things and falling in the pit you digged.
Even though you've been told twice before, you still keep doing it :D
Anyway, I like in WWIIOL when it has ground combat better featured than in AH (or sims in general!) and still has the air combat as well - which exactly isn't bad either.
For long time I've been looking for game which has some actual ground combat and air combat combined - WWIIOL does it the best.
AH just doesn't really have ground combat to talk about - ground units are there just for the fun.. thats good for them who likes it that way.
Unfortunately it has not been so exciting to me.
I've kind of grew up with constant air combat too - now having 8 years of flight simulators behind, which of many years with online games.
Could you believe I have done 278 kills without losses with Fw190A8, in AH?
I guess not.
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I was very unhappy. What should I have done, Hardcase? Tell me how I, as a player, could have done a single thing to make that game code better? How could I have done anything about the absolute lack of preparedness for the amount of network traffic? How could I have said or done anything that would have changed anything that mattered? As for griping... yes, one does tend to become irritated by people who pretend problems don't exist where they quite obviously do... why, just like you are doing now!
Alas, the true hardcase is now revealed. The nice facade couldn't last forever.
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Hardcase, you've come into this thread and pronounced the WWIIOL graphics engine as too advanced for modern computers. I know you don't think you did... but you did.
Then you spend several threads BLINDLY defending people's criticism of the luger lethality and other bugs.
Then you feel that the community here is being hostile by calling you out on it.
Then you start slamming the community here.
Its time you stopped and asked yourself just why you are participating in this thread. None of what you've presented so far gives anyone any clues.
Its funny that the original post that you felt the need to clarify/correct seems to be more accurate than your clarifications/corrections.
Its time to go home now.
AKDejaVu
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Hardcase,
Now you read that "Historical Gameplay" thread and could not tell it was a joke?
Really?
That really tells alot about ya if true. The ah main peaks between 450 and 500 folks nightly. Thats great for a Flight sim. WB3 hits 80.
I flew both and kept up a wwiiol account (even though I rarely played). Read agw tell me what you see there.
When I went to wwiiol my squad had 28 guys all from ah and wbs none play now. Why is that. Because your game is too tough? or too complex? Come on now.
Its because eveyrthing wwiiol offers someone else does better.
When I mentioned spending 30min to get to the action you basically said I didnt know what I was doing. Yet you are gonna get a second account to tow yourself around, You have plenty of time while playing to sopend 30 min or so chattin with us Arcades High folks.
When I play ah or wbs or hell even dod I dont have time to chat on a bbs.
Fishu didnt you just a few threads back say that you didnt call anyone liars? And that it implied so other motive?
Worst is the lies
who said that Fishu?
Every bug I stated is true, pistol sniping (ask hard case), tank clipping, rifles not being effect (see the post post where I linked bradys thread from wwiiol, even killer acknowledged as much)
So it seems that you offer nothing double talk and lies, not us folks who call it like we see it. There is a double standard, if I like something I say its good, If I dont like it I say its a pos.
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Nice Facade? I am. Dont you remember the vileness that was posted in ww2ol during that time? I had the same problems as you. I was running in on a p3700. It had gotten to a point that the forums were unreadable. Your post were just some of many in the cacophony. What could anyone do? No one could fix anything then. It was suck it up and stick it out. Your leaving was one of many, and by that time I was fed up with everyone's posting.
Sure the rats lost money. Subscriptions is where the developer makes his money. It was publish or die. I paid money just like everyone . I tried helping where I could. I'm still doing that in the community forum. There were things that could be done to machines to help and some things that could not be helped.
My not caring if you play or not is simply based on..either you can play around bugs or not. Nothing can ever make someone play any sim.
It is still better than a turd:D
hardcase
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Originally posted by Oedipus
I guess I don't have a clue what your point is Fishu. I'm not sure what this pit I'm falling into when accusing anyone of anything that I am falling into.
"...still has the air combat as well - which exactly isn't bad either."
Let me guess. You fly thew 109 in WWIIO? ;)
I've noticed you haven't had a clue what you've said and done.
I fly Bf109 very little.
More flying the Bf110.
Also flying Hurricane when I can, but since I'm primarly playing for the axis (like I do in most games..), those flying hours aren't as impressive.
I prefer to use 8x.303 in air combat.
Easier to hit pilot than with cannons or low amount of MGs :)
(In WWIIOL I perhaps have for first times understood in practice why british were so found of their pea shooters in the early years)
Kieran,
Nobody's nice facade lasts long with the kind of talk here is going on.
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I'm out of ww2ol and waiting on a beta release. 30 mins is too long to get to action but you really dont have to wait 30 mins. Truck to a town fight is about 7 mins max, depending on the driver.
I think it is more of..quick fights vs slower fights. In one hour of wb I could do..7 sorties?..ww2ol takes longer to setup a fight. If you run to a fight..30 mins seems right. Running to a fight is kinda' goofy.
Flying to one can take 20 mins. Historical? Is the flight sim portion target rich? No. AH prolly has more in one fight than I might see in an entire sortie unless I stumble upon a bomber flight etc. Historical?
Maybe I am just trying to get you guys to see, it is more than a turd.
I didnt read the entire 300+ post:) Just the thread lead.
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Originally posted by hardcase
Your leaving was one of many, and by that time I was fed up with everyone's posting.
Try, "one of the vast majority". Two types of people those that got scewed once and quit. And those poor morons that kept on paying money to that jerks that diddlyed. Luckily those were at small percentage.
There was something else that the rats could have done. They could have stood by thier product and thier word.
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I disagree on game crippling bugs.Too many ppl continue to play it for the bugs to be game crippling. Perhaps the problem is game vs sim. WW2OL was never designed to be a "game". Taking 30 mins to setup a fight is nothing in ww2ol. 30 mins is a lifetime in wbs and ah.
hardcase
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And those poor morons that kept on paying money to that jerks that diddlyed. Luckily those were at small percentage.
Silly boy, I am neither poor nor a moron and I keep on paying em, that is correct.
BTW..that small percentage continues to grow.
Such venom. Sound like a post from early on. I am more glad you aren't playing than you are.
Stood by their program. ....uh, continuing in the face of all that crap slung at them and to continue to improve the sim, doesn't count as standing by?
hardcase
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Smoking a J for my nausea..so, dont count the spelling from here on in.
hc
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I dont think anyone tried to sell the aces high main as "historical".
How would you classify the wwiiol "Blitzkreig" arena. You call that "historical"???
Surely you see that neither game is even close to "historical".
We have events and the like 3 or 4 times a week and a scenario every quarter. Last one was the battle of britain (I was the axis co) the next one is midway.
I am a combat theater CM and focus on "historical match ups" more then "historical gameplay".
Besides the "wwiiol hamspter wheel" arena what outlet is provided to guys who want a more "historical" setting? You have none.
Its spawn run / drive / fly to capture the flag then start over. Just like aw wbs ah and any of the other fps games. Nothing "historical" about that is there?
Some one said in this thread "they have a scenario type set up with main arena rules". The worst of both worlds for gameplay.
110s the lw plane that won the battle of france?
pistols the weapon of choice for inf?
tanks more numerous the inf?
Not to mention the total disregard of the tactics that made blitzkreig what it was.
Even the 109e4 was the 109 variant used the most in the BoF.
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One post.
Actually it is..fewer and fewer ..not less and less.
Not sure exactly what he wants to do as a pilot.?..Air to air, vulch and bomb..uh..isnt that pretty much was air does? His opinion of the player base based on the number he thinks he counts in forums is fact to be refuted?
Perhaps the poster is "good at flight sims"
To base some argument on one post is silly.
ball is in your court
hc
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Oedipus,
Similar topics has been up from time to time in AH, WB....
What exactly differes in vultching problem to other games and what has the other games done to it?
Nothing.
The general thumb of rule is: theres plentiful of other fields, take off from elsewhere and go kill the vulchers or go find a fight.
I haven't had need to vulch in WWIIOL.
So exactly how does this work against WWIIOL but not against ... what.. AW, WB, AH, IL2....?
Wotan,
Well, how would you then implement gaining of the ground so that it would also work reliably?
In the latest debates, a player made a test and found pistols performing correctly - the problem being exageration and generally better accuracy in the games than real life.
Some things are quite impossible to implement into the games, after all, humans pays for the fun...
If you would make it one tank for every 200 troops, it wouldn't quite work, would it?
So let's at least be realistic.. some compromises has to be done *always* and it doesnt need much of a common sense to figure out you're basically having too high requirement.
The bad thing with tanks is that theres same amout of tanks everywhere, no less or more in some parts... I think this will change have a change though.
You could just as well tell us how would you implement a way to make things work like in blitzkrieg...
It is easy to rant about things, but harder to find working solutions.
Finding that working solution can be very complex.
I'm really curious how you're going to get tank/inf numbers so that theres 'wastly' more infantry than tanks, without making it turn away most of the players and how would you make it more blitzkrieg like.
Actually E4 wasnt the most used.. I'm not sure did it even take a part at all in BoF.
In any case it has Battle of Britain colours instead of BoF. (In BoF it should have sexy brownish camoflage, without yellow bands)
E3 was pretty common in BoF, with only difference being the cannons - MG-FF cannons were replaced with MG-FF/M cannons in E4.
but in any case Bf109s were something like three times more common than Bf110.
You can however fault the players of 109 being limited one, not CRS.
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Historical in the map and the vehicles..what happens after that is player driven.
that scenerio server that was tested last week was a first itteratiopn The spawn areas were reduced and the infantry had attrition values added. Anhee fell when all the inf had been killed along with at guns etc.
Perhaps I can see further into tomorrow than you can.
More of a server load test.
110..etc..
player driven ..that is why Franch doesn't always surrender in ww2ol
so for now german have on the 110 stukes,109s and 111..I dont think that lack will make me drop, but you find it a fault. I'm glad to have a sim that might be the big war online I have always wanted. Dont you want a war like that?
Then you can say that ww2ol isnt it..and I will say..not yet but it will get there a damn sight faster than anything else around here.
hardcase
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the conclusions are not the case oed, no matter how much you want them to be.
hardcase
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What type of cancer you have?
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WWIIOL a POS game ? I don't think so, it still isn't a game, it would have to improve to become a POS game .
I know I know, I'm wrong, I'm lying, my computer sucks and I don'w know what I'm doing .
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I think if you knew me you would know I don't enter a discussion swinging my arms around.
If your memory is really good, Hard, you can remember how I was savaged for questioning what was going on. It was brutal, no big deal, but I saw the situation clearly after a bit. There were sychophants that threw themselves on grenades for CRS, and CRS calmly let the fanbois do it. Any manner of vulgar expletive was allowed... until someone said something about Hatch or Killer, then OOOOOHHHH, "TOS violations"... where I had originally been polite and hoped for a CRS response, I became bitter by the handling by fanatical thuggees and really no longer cared. If I made a mistake, it was not quitting sooner when it was obvious CRS didn't really care about what they had done, nor did they care about the abuses that were being heaped upon their player base. You have your share in that too, Hardcase, because just as you are doing now you would continuously either deny problems existed, minimalize them, or ask people to leave.
Say what you want about me here or there, but I can guarantee you this; I have never asked anyone to leave a game. It isn't my right to speak for the developers that way. Whatever I think of you personally you have the same right I have to an opinion and the decision to play or not. It isn't my right to tell you to leave.
Now we come the topic of reviews... if someone posts a review that enumerates many faults that I too found, I am not about to stand for you to come in here and call them lies. First, the person posting the review is not worthy of that disrespect. Second, as they are telling the truth, potential players would be better served going into that game with their eyes open. You on the other hand are inviting swimmers into the surf, not warning them of the broken glass just under the surface. They will find it on their own and resent you and the game all the more for the deceit.
The reason this thread is getting ugly is due to you refusing to accept what the sentiment of this board is regarding that game. Sorry to tell you, most people here have 20/20 vision regarding WWIIOL, so put away the rose-colored corrective glasses.
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Had...Colon..doing chemo as a precaution. Percocets and herb:D
hardcase
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Originally posted by Thrawn
What type of cancer you have?
Haha ! CRS succeeded at what Voss' TAS failed to do .
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Oedipus,
Why do you claim so?
I haven't seen it being anywhere near the truth.
Vulching isn't even closely the major part of WWIIOL's air combat.
If someone gets vulched, it is pretty much his fault - he could take away from a field 5 minutes behind and go kill the vulchers.
If someone would tell you that front side of the building being guarded by gunmen prepared to shoot you, would you go out from the front door or back door?
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Originally posted by hardcase
Had...Colon..doing chemo as a precaution. Percocets and herb:D
hardcase
Shity deal, you doing okay?
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Yeah, really, making jokes about cancer really isn't cool.
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killer was awake the first 72 hours talking to 200k a year cisco engineers. I can assure you they were not reading the forums. They knew what was wrong more than anyone and were trying to fix it. Do you really think they werent playing in it too? What were they to do? Come into the forum and post away like we are doing?
They cared. There was so much noise to signal in those forums, every post trying to help,explain,guess,join in, was drowned out. It did become to much to even worry about.
I never asked you to leave..you told me your were leaving and then posted the hell and gone why. Like anyone didnt know the problems playing.
Then I come in and point out the good things about it. I dont think eveyone on this board is posting in here. Someone may be lurking.
hardcase
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Yes, thanks for asking:)
Carrot, I dont know if you guys flew with him in warbirds is having a tough time. If you do know him.or even if you don't.drop by agw and check out the posts we have going there.
Simmers all!
hardcase
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damn..i found a thread stopper:D
hardcase
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That takes care of the first 72 hours... what about the next 6 months? ;)
No, the surest way to get their attention was to post a pic of Hatch's head on Adolf Hitler (remember that?). That post sat for maybe an hour or so before a sharp TOS was sent out. Don't tell me they didn't look at the boards. ;)
Agree, totally a waste of time looking for anything positive on their BBS. What wound me up more than anything else was knowing I was right about what I was seeing and enduring people visciously denying the existance of such issues. I still think it is a waste of time for them to unlock the OT there to the public, because the crowd there won't behave any better this time around.
One issue I pounded on was the knife-edge flight. Unbelievable the amount of denial on that topic. When CRS did comment, what was the response? "We have the most realistic f/m on the market, because we blah blah blah..." Not one comment on the totally unrealistic aspect of the flight model and its subsequent effect on air combat. So, with this little exploit, it was easy and even wise to crank a Stuka over on its side and hold all the rudder in. In this manner you could outturn anything, never have to worry about drag bleeding your energy AND have a better climb rate than if you had the wings more level. Sorry, that is a gaping hole in game play to me, because it is now impossible to treat the Stuka in an historical manner. You wouldn't dare try a spiral climb or rope one, because that dude was gonna smoke you- I know, because I had a couple of hundred kills doing just that. Often I wouldn't even bother dropping ord first, as there was absolutely no need to waste the bombs.
Sure, after a while there was drag added, but that was MONTHS afterward. Surely you, as the mostly pilot you are, recognize the implications. So... how do you handle it then? Sure, run, extend, grab height, hit and run, repeat. Still... roping should have been an option.
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Help get me off this thread every time I check email there is 15 replys. Damn and now im compounding the issue with this post will it ever end. AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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They patched and are still doing it. I think drag isnt being handled right. Might be something like that fix in the wb 38 when Mo found a call out of sequence for post departure. The FM was still good but a coding error some where. They brought areonautical engineers with coding exp to have a look at it. The 'neers didnt find an error in the basic flight code. So, it beats the hell out of me, but then again all i've ever flown was someones code of a FM.
Looping was a concern but seems the record for some plane was 300+ consectutive loops. It feels different from wbs model. I just dont know.
First iterations were done by Hoof, he was the lead programmer, he had been with the rats when they, dale and doug were at warbirds....Hoof was in the first group that CRS let go.
have this map
hardcase
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For some parts WWIIOL flight model actually has it's good sides.
However to me it seems the flight model wasnt ever really completed.. it's the most unworked thing since the release when you think of all other aspects.
I don't think anyone works on the flight model at the moment, at least I haven't heard anything to direction or another of FM stuffs.
..well, they fixed yawing problem on Bf110 :)
But Stuka, I don't really think it's as good as many thinks.. flown and fought in Stuka many times, I could kill it with ease majority of times.
The level of A2A skills in WWIIOL is very bad compared to AH.
AH is almost only a flight sim, so everyone has flown the planes and lot of people are very good.
Since noobs usually goes into horizontal turning and naturally tries to pull the plane as much as they can, this leads into most favorable situation for the Stuka.
Some things are indeed wrong with FM, but alot of it is in the players as well.
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The only good thing I liked about WW2OL's Flight model was the feeling of rushing into and along the ground when strafing or hunting road kill. They did that very well. The Dogfights tho left a lot to be desired and is something I hope they tackle very soon.
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Fishu I made long post last time hardcase asked me what I would do different and I made a map and everything explaining how I thought it should be.
I will search for that thread and punt because I dont feel like typing it all back out.
How is wwiiol gonna do the eastern front with flag capture. No large encirclement and break throughs etc....
Hardcase you dont even 1/3 of the historical vehicles modelled in wwiiol. Wheres the artillery? theres no navy, I havent seen in wwiiol. How hvy and med machineguns? That maps only historical in that you call it france.
Theres nothing historical about wwiiol. Not in the spawn limits, not in the supply, not in tactics, not even in the right models of the equipment you use in game.
Thats not the battle of france, that capture 60 times till reset.
But its not me who brought up "historical" it was you. I dont fly ah main because its "historical" and I didnt buy wwiiol thinking it was "really" the BoF. I just expected from reading the aars and following the pre release hype that we were in for something new.
I undersood the release wasnt great and as soon as it went pay to play I signed up. I waited to see the great new changes. But its still the same "game" and even with the 1.67 (which looks great and I will try) I dont see how you can call any of that even remotely "historical".
I dis like the tanking. I like the 38t alot (read my aar at the beginning). I got lotsa kills in it. I like the p11 as well. It mobil and against truck inf etc I did quite well. I even kill an r35 with its ap.
But the inf sucked, and I didnt just get wwiiol to fly but I found the fm easy. I did notice it seems either bomb weight or bomb drag was added.
Too much bad out weighed the good.
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and it doesnt have atomic bombs either. How about attempting to be Historical more so than anything else?
I dis like the tanking. I like the 38t alot
says it all, you liked what you did well.
hc
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There are good parts of the WWIIOL f/m, with that I would totally agree. I did like the feel in-cockpit, I like the departure characteristics, and I like that you have to fly the darn things and can't just kick them around any ol' way. I do like a little slop in the controls because I know some planes were coupled differently than others. They didn't all fly like Pitts Specials with perfectly harmonized controls. In fact, since the last patch, the f/m itself would be the LEAST of my complaints. What is important to me there is that the planes perform in historical relevance to one another, and this they seem to do as far as I'm concerned.
-
Bump:D
Hardcase
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Hardcase, just a psychological note here: I'm assuming you hold some type of trainer or developer status over at WW2 online? Maybe a moderator? This is usually the case when some viciously defends their current sim they're playing(irregardless of alleged bugs). Just curious as to what you do over there besides play the sim.
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historically atomic bombs werent part of the battle of france, were they?
:D
If your idea was to counter the arguement that wwiiol is in a fact a pos, so that others may try it (or stop them from "not trying it" based on the original review), bumping this thread cant be helpfully.
Lotsa guys saying its a pos and 2 fan bois throwin' alot of spin.
If I read this thread theres no way I would try it :p
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I was thinking the same thing yesterday, Wotan. I was basically thinking I would bump this thread everytime the discussion comes up- it will save the typing.
-
Wasn't that the intent of this thread?
hardcase
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'fanbois'
I've only defended the game against unreasonable arguments.
What does that make you?
You and few others in the thread are much worse behaving than the "fanbois".
If you think the game is bad, fine.. but why do you still need to nearly insult players of it and keep insisting it's crappiness beyond belief?
Are you perhaps trying to achieve something like that?
I *REALLY* don't see a sense in that.
Why not just leave it up to the players to decide whether they like it, instead of trying to convince everyone of the games crappiness before they even see or play it. (..even with unreasonable arguments, thats just low of you)
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Oedipus I've played WWIIOL since it came out (couple months break in last spring) so maybe I know something about that game too.
It has bugs and some things I really don't like but it does work and usually it's quite fun to play too. Actually there was a time when all my flights with AH's perk-planes ended to CTDs or hard lock-ups but WWIIOL worked just fine. Those CTDs cost thousands of perkpoints for me and yes, it really pissed me off.
Anyway wwiiol has more "depth" than other games of the genre and I sure hope it can survive.
btw it's kinda amazing to see how people behave in this UBB; It looks even more childish than in wwiiol's board.
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It looks even more childish than in wwiiol's board.
Not even close Staga, I still read that board and I read it before they closed down the old one. Dont try to spin that as well.
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DIE HORSIE DIE!!!! (http://216.40.241.68/contrib/sarge/BoomSmilie_anim.gif)
-SW
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No, Hardcase, that wasn't the intent of this thread. The original intent was one person giving other players his perspective of WWIIOL in its current iteration based on his personal observations. Problem is, there is this guy that keeps popping in here that won't allow an opinion to be expressed.
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You mean you guys really think ppl should try it to find out if they like it or not and not trying to turn ppl off before they even look? That is great! Good to know you guys think some ppl might find it quite enjoyable.
hardcase
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Oedipus,
If you didn't notice, I especially meant the unreasonable arguments, not all the arguments.
Most of your arguments are unreasonable and alot of them complete BS.
If you would make a scenario of certain era in AH/WB, you would have very limited amount of aircrafts in AH/WB as well.
WWIIOL might not have much planes, but it does have more ground units to offer.
In AH 1940 planes can fight against 1945 planes, thats why it has alot more to offer for you.
AH doesn't offer enough for me, but well, I don't need to rant about it.
Wotan,
You know, you're behaving like one of them :>
Kieran,
It becomes sad when people has to tell their opinion of WWIIOL in unconstructive manner.
-
Fishu, Hardcase, go back and play WWIIOl. It's blatantly obvious you are doing nothing here except... well, nothing.
People are playing AH because they want to. If someone comes to this BBS and reads Vulcan's opinion of WWIIOl, big whooptie diddlying doo. They read other people's opinion's of it, big whooptie diddlying doo.
If they WANT to try it out, they can... whoops, that's right, you have to buy the box first... so if they don't like it they get screwed up the doodoo shoot by the turd burglars that go by the moniker CRS.
Atleast our opinions are our opinions, we don't need you to come here and try to refute our opinions.
That's why you've earned the fanboy title, wear it proud or get the shreck outta here.
-SW
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AKSWulfe,
In AH BBS people earns wide range of titles if they don't agree with someone.
For some reason people in these boards tends to give immediatly different kind of titles to people when they have no better argument.
Anyway, I've left permanent foot mark of my presence in AH..
I began in first place to call them Knit's and Bishcuit's. ;)
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so if they don't like it they get screwed up the doodoo shoot by the turd burglars that go by the moniker CRS.
ahh..the intellect and common courtesy abounds.
So, you do agree that ppl should try it for themselves, say when a freebie shows up? They can d/l it for free and check out the stuff offline. Guess that 19.95 would keep you from buying that dream house. Maybe not others.
hardcase
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Fishu, the only reason I remember your handle is because you always come here to say how WW2Ol is so great.. then someone says somethings broke, then you refute with "but AH is in another way too"....
I don't come to the WWIIOl BBS and spew anything, in defense of AH or against WWIIOl.
Why can't you just... shreck off?
-SW
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True, you cant unless you have an account. You just spew in here.
hardcase
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I keep seeing you reference to WWIIOl being the dream house, the holy grail, the bomb diggity...
I'll remind you, my idea of any of the above (but in this case I'll go with dream house) is that I wouldn't drop a f'in penny on a house made out of balsa wood with major parts of the framework missing, only 2 windows, no bathroom, and just a kitchen sink.
If you want to, fine... if others want to, fine. But the opinions expressed in this thread by anyone other than you and Fishu are warnings to other people.
If they still wanna go on and buy it, I don't care. They'll just be another sucka fish in the cess pool known as WWIIOl.
-SW
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Yeah, and I hold an account here. I'm entitled to that. Why don't you go spew over on the boards for the game you hold an account for and leave us to our opinions?
You can't, why?, I dunno. Prolly cause you like duping people into buying crap.
-SW
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AKSwulfe,
I haven't really said anything like "WWIIOL is great" :P
Only said I'm having more fun in WWIIOL instead of AH and correcting some BS arguments.
Like I said earlier, I've just talked of AH when the person himself in an argument has compared WWIIOL to AH or when the person has seemed like comparing it to AH or it's kind of sims.
Of course I could have used other simulation for example - like I have generalized, but for some aspect it's been easier to compare to AH, which I know the best and which people here knows the best.
BUT I have not said anything of AH in means of ranting - only talked about AH when I've attempted to prove that the person is having double stantards in his arguments between the two games.
Person might have seriously ranted about something in WWIIOL, while he talks high of AH, which might also have had the exact same issue as WWIIOL.
Thats where I've "refuted" with AH.
Sounds pretty fair, doesn't?
I Used to play AH alot in the past... why else do you think I would been registered in these forums since October 1999 and have nearly 3000 posts?
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Warnings? Another backhand way of trying what someone said this thread wasn't. You want to discourgage ppl from trying it. You got called on it and we have a 300+ thread otw.
I posted the "holy grail"..is an online ww2 sim. Is ww2ol there yet? No, is it trying, yes. Is anyone else? No.
I really dont think I spew..havent called Dale any name at all
They'll just be another sucka fish in the cess pool known as WWIIOl
Here I thought you liked me. Being a sucka fish to you might well be something to be.
hardcase
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Fishu, as far as I can tell, you were the one who came in here comparing WW2Ol with AH. I have no desire to search this thread to find out who said what first. If you know who and where the first person who said, post here and I'll let it be.
Hardcase, yes warnings. Of course you like to say discourage, you know what the funny thing is tho? If we were discouraging people, we would of said, "This game sucks, no one should buy it!"
No one said no one should buy it, hence they are warnings and opinions of a game. Of course, you like to play twist the words, so in the end it doesn't matter how we phrase it... you'll always jump into one of these threads with your kneepads slobbing on CRS's knob.
As for this: " posted the "holy grail"..is an online ww2 sim. Is ww2ol there yet? No, is it trying, yes. Is anyone else? No."
Hmmm, interesting. I guess that when companies don't bite off more than they can chew, and instead work the opposite end of the spectrum... getting a stable game first, and building it up from there with each area (land, air, sea) being added when the other works well means that no one else is trying?
Indeed then, no one is trying to f*ck up as bad as CRS. Other companies are smarter (iEN, HTC) and are building up from an established working game. Eventually HTC will get there, and probably so will iEN.
CRS... they did it bellybutton backwards.. and what they have right now isn't an online war... it's an online cluster diddly.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Fishu, as far as I can tell, you were the one who came in here comparing WW2Ol with AH. I have no desire to search this thread to find out who said what first. If you know who and where the first person who said, post here and I'll let it be.
Like said.. only to prove the double stantards.
I have no reason to rant about AH or compare it to prove something else than that.
Also, in these forums, I've only mentioned WWIIOL in the threads which are about WWIIOL.
Thats posting on the topic isn't it? :rolleyes:
What does this thread really matter to you if you don't care about WWIIOL?
You come in here and tell us to fediddle off, but you're the one who comes in the thread to post - obviously jumping in between, not bothering to read the thread to know whats actually going on and making your quick assumptions of that who are the bad guys.
Indeed then, no one is trying to f*ck up as bad as CRS. Other companies are smarter (iEN, HTC) and are building up from an established working game. Eventually HTC will get there, and probably so will iEN.
[/b]
HTC or iEN has no intentions to try simulate ground, sea and air units historically.
So they will never get "there".
They have totally different goals in what they try to simulate.
You would think WB would have already got there during all these years it's been around, if they would have wanted to ;)
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So you do admit that ww2ol is more complex than a simpler stable game. Probalby more complex than AH? I like complexity in my gameplay and I am willing to overlook bugs and continue to support it. You like simpler more stable games.
BTW..it has always been stable on my systems. I dont CTD.
Must be the sims fault huh?
hardcase
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come on! almost to 300!
Hardcase, enemy bias in the air. is it fixed?
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Yeah, sure it is... but don't pull the smoke 'n mirrors... "What you see didn't actually happen..." or something along those lines.
It's always something like that.
Somethings broken.. "no it isn't"... "then why can't I do this"... "because you should't be able too!"
Meanwhile you SHOULD be able to, but the problem is the game won't let you or it's just broke.
-SW
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Funny, but WWIIOl ain't all that complex....
Just because I play AH doesn't mean it's the only one I play.
I like games that work. Complexity is relative, especially if it's all f'ed up.
-SW
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Bias? I'm not sure what you mean. Does one side have a distinct advantage over the other in the air? Probably will always be an imbalance. Allies are getting a strat bomber soon. No idea when to counteract the 111. I fly allied so, acutally that advantage is negatetd;)
Lots of things need fixing in the flight model. Ground modeling for one thing. Lots of things are still wrong, lots of things are right. Things improve with each patch.
hardcase
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Naw..not all diddlyed up. For 12.95 it is a great evening of flying,tanking,gunning,infantry, driving,boating, etc.
hardcase
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AKSWulfe,
Games that work?
I don't have problems with reliability of WWIIOL :)
I don't either know any major bugs that would distract and CRS as anyone, will try to fix those bugs.
How much do you know of AH's history for example?
It hasn't either born as it is, neither any other game that I know.
Hardcase,
Pst.. it's 12,95
Now you'll get accused of false advertisement and that alone will generate 50 posts :D
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It is all f'ed up, but you've already admitted to ignoring it's problems because of whatever reason (free account?)...
No matter what you tell me, you won't convince me that the keerappiest form of code to ever land on a hard drive representing an "online war" is worth any money.
-SW
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AKSWulfe,
Haven't you already noticed.. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.
You're the one trying to convince us of something :D
..Neither do I have a free account.
(and I have to pay through by other person since I don't have Visa)
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Fishu, I've had exactly ONE!!! CTD/problem with AH since I started paying for it... the first day it went pay 2 play. It works as it's supposed to.
The history before that I know about, but could care less because I wasn't, and no one else, was paying for it.
-SW
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Did I have the 300th post?:D
hardcase
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roadkill Fishu, but whatever... I have already come to terms that you twist stuff around to suit you.
-SW
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It becomes sad when people has to tell their opinion of WWIIOL in unconstructive manner.
What the heck are you talking about? "Uncontructive manner", thats the kind of stuff you say to people who have intrest in whether a game survives. I certainly dont care if wwiiol fails. It wont make 1 bit of difference to me or most here.
There is nothing about wwiiol that is worth preserving at all costs. If it succeeds or fails it will do so on its own.
Now how do I tell you wwiiol is a pos in a constructive manner?
No one in here compared wwiiol to AH but you. We say we dont like wwiiol because of these reasons and you imply we are lying or making stuff up or are to stupid to figure it out. Or we are just biased (still trying to figure out what that means)
Thats been the pattern with the rats, its the pattern of the fan bois.
Because we dont like wwiiol has nothing to do with ah. I myself am a bit burned out with AH but the alternative isnt wwiiol.
Hardcase says that should wwiiol fail then nothing like it will ever happen again. BS, the problem with wwiol isnt the concept, its the creators and the design. Its the lies and shifting of responsibility. On top of all that its not that fun.
Should wwiiol fail theres a good leason there for the next one. Just be 5% better then wwiiol and imagine the fan bois you would have then. You fan bois new it was crap in beta and have been spinning it ever since its release.
Fishu says that he is bored with ah, and no body cares. We say wwiiol is boring and Fishu says we are lying, we dont know how to play, its boring now but will get better etc.....
See the difference fishu? We dont care if you like ah or not.
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sure it did. Pretty sure that Dale dragged a lot of his wb code over. Easy to do it the second time. It is the first time cutting edge that is tough.
War is not always fun, games are fun, sims are interesting.
Which ww2ol will they be better at, the one coming next week or the one coming that next patch. Hope the idea that gaming companies wont continue to throw out bf42 forever is true.
I doubt if you have any idea of the inner workings of ww2ol and server sharing technology. First time tried, and getting better all the time.
hardcase
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He started from scratch Hardcase, or do you not understand legal property?
Hint: iEN bought WarBirds, and all of it's code.
-SW
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Oh please..like he forgot all his coding. Doug didnt code the same fm? LOL..That was a really bad shot!
WW2OL started completely new in concept and implemention.. ....AH is still warbirds on steroids.
I am sure Hoof used coding from warbrids in ww2ol. You dont forget how and there are ony so many ways to build the same type sim again.
hardcase
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Obviously you don't code very much. It's improved, a lot, over the WarBirds version he left behind.
WW2OL started completely new in concept and implemention
You got that right.. new good concept, new toejamty implementation.
-SW
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What implementation would you be comparing that to?
Perhaps the concept of warbirds on steriods escaped you. It is much more than warbirds, but dont look behind the curtain too often.
hardcase
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what does wwiiol simulate?
One definition of simulate
: to give or assume the appearance or effect of often with the intent to deceive
Sounds about right.
But it certainly does not simulate the Battle of France. You dont have enough vehicles and equipment, you dont have the right equipment. You dont simulate the correct objectives.
Go with the definition I provided you are on firmer ground that way.
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Any game developer.
A game is a game.
Perhaps the concept of good concept, but toejamty everything else doesn't ring a lightbulb in your head...
someone should replace the bulb, or the switch, cuz one or the other ain't working.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Fishu, I've had exactly ONE!!! CTD/problem with AH since I started paying for it... the first day it went pay 2 play. It works as it's supposed to.
The history before that I know about, but could care less because I wasn't, and no one else, was paying for it.
-SW
There was time when AH actually CTD'd more often, I experienced some of those.
AH has matured alot since then - is it a wonder, after all, it is alot older than WWIIOL.
WWIIOL hasn't either been CTDng on me much at all.
I don't remember single CTD in last 3 months.
There was alot of CTDs, but CRS has been fixing those and has done good job so far at that.
Seems like alot of rants in this thread are of the old problems WWIIOL had.
What comes to twisting... what exactly are you doing then?
Wotan,
You're again working as good example of unconstructive posting :>
Read my posts again, I give you the freedom to decide what games you like and what you don't.
So definately theres no word said that you would be lying your boredness with WWIIOL.
Some of the people in this thread however are saying much more than just saying they don't like WWIIOL.
It is funny you do care if someone likes WWIIOL, the game which you don't even wan't to play.
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BTW that implemenation is always improving. I wonder,when ww2ol gets to it total potential what will happen to wb and ah. Ever think that is why you and wb have tanks now? I am willing to bet tho..that ww2ol's implementation will be more in depth and complexity than someone elses. Adding tanks to a flight sim, was the problem in warbirds long ago.
hardcase
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I'm not twisting anything... but I give up on arguing with you, because you seem to think I have some sort of hidden agenda.
Aside from the fact that I think WWIIOl sucks donkey ass, and I would never recommend it to anyone... I have no agenda.
Like I said tho, you started off comparing AH to WWIIOl... the rest of us have been giving our critiques of that toejam in a box.
"Why do companies put a guarantee on a box? Because they know what they're selling you is a guaranteed piece of toejam. If you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will, I have time." Chris Farley, Tommy Boy.
Sounds a lot like WW2Ol to me...
Yeah, there was a time when AH CTDd a lot, but I wasn't paying for it. I don't think anyone was. Plenty of people paid for that dump in a box known as WWIIOl.
-SW
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AKSWulfe,
Say that again...
You have an agenda to oppose WWIIOL.
Does the word 'hypocrit' say anything?-)
Let's see how this edits (still with the original contex, just for testing)
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Hardcase, you are only repeating yourself at this point. I have told you repeatedly that CRS sucks. Their implementation sucks. It can't get better unless they get a new team.
I have no desire to continue repeating myself, and this has been a good time killer at work, but I am leaving to go home and play AH, Il2, and OFP... <--- all those games work!
-SW
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Personal invective is the hallmark of poor language and debating skills. Since there has been a demand for a full scale online war and you think it is so easy, can you think of one reason why it was never attempted before? I suspect it is very complicated with server sharing technology, where one player can be on one server and his buddy in the gunner seat is on another for example. 55 damage areas on one tank for another example. Easy to do. Hell boy lets get together and make us a war sim!
hardcase
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Fishu, I don't go to WW2Ol boards and post about it at all. I don't go anywhere else and post about it, at all.
I don't call people liars, and I don't try to change their opinion about a game.
So say what you want, it's obvious who the liar and hypcrite is.
-SW
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CRS is doing just fine even with your not likey em.
hardcase
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One last thing-> Hardcase, that's exactly why you have WW2Ol today.
No experts, lot of dreamers== uber cluster diddly.
Good day.
-SW
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I will back dreamers anyday, especailly when the dream is coming true. Sorry you think CRS has no talent. Perhaps they have enough to bring this off. I guess we will never see your ID in there. I will look for it in a year.
hardcase
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AKSWulfe,
I only say someone is lying when there actually is a lie.
I do have my honours.
In one case there was an obvious lie.
Neither am I trying to convince anyone to change their opinion of a game.
If someone doesn't like a game, it isn't reasonable to expect him to change his mind.
To me it sounds like many people in the thread are trying to turn away people from WWIIOL and sometimes it looks like they're trying to make me and hardcase to dislike WWIIOL.
I'm not trying to be hostile here, so why are you?
Like in one occasion where Kieren posted a constructive post where he looked at things objectively, I did reply to it in totally unargumentive manner.
I don't make the arguments, I reply to the arguments.
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btw you do know they and dale and doug were cut from the same cloth. Perhaps if they aimed lower they would have..no wait..we already have serveral of those.
hardcase
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I remember a time when WWIIOL had 12,000-15,000 players on at a time.
I remember multiple servers maxed out at 1,000.
I remember an endless supply of enemy.
I remember a BBS that had members that said things like "I'll be glad when you guys that are complaining are gone".
I remember when the people actually left.
I remember how it became difficult to fill one 1,000 player server.
I remember just about when the offers started hitting my mailbox to re-up for a month for free.
I remember that when I tried, the game hadn't changed much at all.
I remember subscribing for another go, and it still hadn't progressed.
I remember warning the sycophants they would regret rushing folks out the door.
It occurs to me... if the game is doing so well, why the need to spam this board for players?
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You are assuming about my motives..begging the argument. I have no intention of "spamming for players". You want to talk about ww2ol in this forum, I will be right there with you. I suspect that only the 4 or 5 of us here are paying any attention.
How is ww2ol offering returnees..and I fully understand why ppl left early on, an opportunity to play for themselves, or a freebie for all for some length of time, something bad? I suspect that Strat First wont allow CRS to allow free d/l and constant 2 week freebie like AH does to attract players. I know for certain they wil not allow CRS to sell CD key codes in the US. To bad Dale doesnt offer freebie for all,so I could check it out again.
The bottom line is still, want to talk about ww2ol? I will be more than willing to do so.
hardcase
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I believe more are left than are at HTC. Is that suppose to be a dig? This has what to do with ww2ol?
hardcase
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Tardcase wrote:
You mean you guys really think ppl should try it to find out if they like it or not and not trying to turn ppl off before they even look? That is great! Good to know you guys think some ppl might find it quite enjoyable.
Nice sarcasm!
No I DON'T think people should try it and YES I AM trying to turn people off before they look.
I look at WWIIO like it's shoving a hot poker up my ass. Sure some retards like you might like it but should we encourage it?
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Point, Match, Game
There it is. Wanting any sim to fail detracts from all simmers. I would not like to see wb or ah fail. People enjoy it, ppl make their livings off of them. Now you, you behave like a child.
Enjoy the poker, I will try to find more for you.
hardcase
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Originally posted by hardcase
So you do admit that ww2ol is more complex than a simpler stable game. Probalby more complex than AH? I like complexity in my gameplay and I am willing to overlook bugs and continue to support it. You like simpler more stable games.
Ummmm.... I read through this whole thread and didn't see a single person mention that WW2OL was not "more complex". I think where most seem to be differing is that "more complex" seems to be coming at quite a price... and if that price is worth it.
I also believe that "more complex" is sometimes used as a replacement for "less efficient". As in... sometimes games run slow because their engine is "less efficient" and not that its "more complex".
BTW..it has always been stable on my systems. I dont CTD.
Must be the sims fault huh?
What you simply fail to realize is that you are in the minority. Just like those that didn't experience CTDs with the first 1.10 patches were. Strange that HTC managed to find a bug that only affected some people running the same software as others.
What really cracks me up is the insistance that since one person does not have a problem with a game, then others shouldn't be either... and if they are... its because of something they did. Thankyou for bringing that to this thread hardcase.
AKDejaVu
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Why would I cheat Dale? Since CRS cant sell key codes, you must buy the box. SF would make no money that way. I agree using a publisher as an error, but they did front the money.
Yep, players are down, so? 300k play EQ. Is EQ something worth playing to you? Numbers are a measure of commercial success. Killer never thought it would be a 300 K success. All it needs is what it needs. Maybe numbers will come up with the Mac release and more Euros. Euros can play from a CD in game mags and buy CD key codes online, bypassing SF.
hardcase
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Geesh you even spin what some else says,
He didnt say he wanted wwiiol to fail, He said the same thing I did. That is we really dont care if they stay in buisness or fold it would make no difference.
I dont feel its up to me to prop their crappy product up. Build it, they will come, if its good they will stay.
It wont mean an end of the world if they close shop. As a matter fact they can make a good case study on what not to do should someone else try.
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Tardcase wrote:
Point, Match, Game
Gee! What did you win! A clue maybe?
Well Tardcase this has been fun and all but your arguments have gotten boring so I'll leave you to you wondeful POS(which I'm sure your playing as you read this since you have to wait forever for a fight).
I hope you and the other 2 guys enjoy playing while you can.
I be gone!
P.S. STFU!
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No I DON'T think people should try it and YES I AM trying to turn people off before they look
What am I missing if that is not wanting a sim to fail?
hardcase
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naw..i know how to find a fight,type in the text..where is a fight..and click on the city or fb. Get something to move in, and if needed grab a ride, in a truck, on a tank, or fly.. Waiting on the beta coming this afternoon. I'd hoped for yesterday.
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who said that?
More of your spin. We said its a pos, but that wont stop anyone else from finding this out on their own.
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Waiting on the beta coming this afternoon. I'd hoped for yesterday.
Arent we all :D
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I think I have made some points you are afraid to address, so let me add...
1. Player numbers fell to the point the company filed Chapter 11. Fact.
2. CRS stated on the BBS they needed 1,000 new players a month to survive. Fact.
3. CRS has subsequently laid off employees. Fact.
4. Players on the BBS are beginning to more and more frequently complain about not being able to find a fight. Fact.
5. You show up here and spam looking for more players to fill the emptying CRS arenas. Conjecture, based on the above observations.
Here's another line of thought for you...
1. You claim you will take interesting over fun... does this suggest you admit AH is more fun oriented and less interesting oriented? Are you suggesting fun in a game is a bad thing? It sure seems so.
2. You have so much time to spam this BBS while you are supposedly playing that game and being "interested". Hey, if that game is so enthralling, why are you not there absorbed in your interest while you are playing instead of seeking fun here on this BBS?
Here's another thought for you...
Since it is clear we haven't the intelligence to write a review that will satisfy your "need for the truth", how about you give it a go? Write us an example of a good, hard-hitting, unbiased review of the game- no fair cutting-n-pasting anyone else's work, it has to be your own- and let us critique your review? Do you have the guts to do it? Be careful, I'll be going over it with a fine-tooth comb- that is, if you have the nerve to try it, which I seriously doubt you will.
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ahh..telling me how is not encourging me..my bad.
hardcase
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I wont tell you how to get free time in ww2ol cause you would maybe tell someone else, not encouraging em, but just telling em how and they would:D
btw, have you told many of this? Glad those you told didnt do it
hardcase
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Originally posted by Kieran
It occurs to me... if the game is doing so well, why the need to spam this board for players?
WWIIOL's gameplay intrests me, it has sort of more chances for different things.. I can't really explain it, but I find it more fun..
Obviously it isn't the case with you or with many others.
but thats how it is, one likes, one doesn't.
From the begining I didn't think WWIIOL would get to the player counts it was advertised for (being capable of dealing 10k players) and what publisher seemed to expect.
Simply because it wasn't what the main stream plays - fast action which makes the game more intensive.
WWIIOL simply isn't the fast & intensive action.
plus the bad problems in the begining and when there are still some flaws, although I don't feel like those flaws would be ruining the fun on my part.
Many thinks differently of those.
(thats how it is.. what else can I say :))
WWIIOL isn't doing well what comes to business, but I would say it is improving fine.
but I don't see either reason why not to attempt to get more players to try it.
Games are often 'advertised' in the off-topic forums by the players.
Oedipus,
I have told you why.
It is odd why you haven't noticed it.
Although, I've already made the observation you don't notice other things either.
Wotan,
To me it sounds like many in this thread are trying to get people convinced that WWIIOL has too many flaws to be playable.
Isn't that same as trying to make WWIIOL fail - players staying away from game - game will fail when it can't get players.
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if the game was good there nothing us malcontents could say could threaten the survival of that game.
I am not gonna pretend I like it or that it even half way good.
I call it like I see it and you do the same.
Its doesnt bother me when folks say they dont like ah or that they find ah boring. Why should a few guys opinions on the board, who you say are biased wwiiol haters, effect the the success or failure of such a "fun" game as wwiiol.
We dont spam other boards. We certainly arent lying about the reasons we find that game to be crap. Any motive or biased we have is directly linked to the experience we have had with that game.
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Wotan,
Nobody's asking you to like it or pretend to be liking it in any manner.
All you're asked, is to be objective, let the people find out whether they like it and not put the words in their mouth already before they've tried it.
Neither are we objecting to someone saying their opinion, only the way it is said.
(like for example theres no reason to exagerate, put unreasonable expectations on the developers which you don't expect from other game or remind about the year before which is far in the past)
Hardcase posted this topic in the off-topic forum and I don't see what is the problem with it.
He is trying to tell it to people who might care and this kind of games off-topic forum is the best..
That has been the practice for over the years already.
WB was 'advertised' by the players in AW boards (well, more like news groups back then), AH has been 'advertised' in WB boards...
Also many other games has been 'advertised' in AH off-topic forum, not just WWIIOL.
Alot of totally unrelated topics are discussed in off-topic forum of AH - but isn't that the main reason for it?
I wonder how many players in AH also plays WWIIOL.. I'm sure you're not talking for all the players yourself, that would be stupid, wouldn't it?
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Objective? I keep seeing that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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AKdejavu,
The words "Object" and "Objectively" are two different words.
Objectively
\Ob*jec"tive*ly\, adv. In the manner or state of an object; as, a determinate idea objectively in the mind.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Objectively
adv : with objectivity; "we must look at the facts objectively" [ant: subjectively]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
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Fishu-
Let me start by saying I've really had absolutely no problem with you in this thread other than the one point I discussed earlier (that is, the tendency to start a WWIIOL/AH comparison when it isn't valid). I think you have been earnest.
This however would be a different story:
All you're asked, is to be objective, let the people find out whether they like it and not put the words in their mouth already before they've tried it.
So if I gather you right, it wouldn't be ok to post a glowing report of WWIIOL in this OT? You mean if we do, you or HC will come in here and say "Don't put words in their mouths, let them find out themselves!" Of course you wouldn't, you'd be just fine with that. No... it is the two of you that are attempting to stifle the free expression of valid opinions because they happen to oppose your own.
Fact is, people did find out on their own, and they came back here and wrote about it from their perspective... and in charges you and HC to tell them they are wrong. What's wrong with this picture?
In your defense, I think you are really trying to honestly do what you said. HC on the other hand is beginning to show a tendency to twist words and be deceitful and hypocritical, with the final effect of having totally lost any credibility he might have possessed on the topic. He is now simply trolling- ironic given his past stance on trollers on the WWIIOL BBS.
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BTW, HC, where is that review? ;)
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I know what the word means fishu. I don't believe either you or hardcase did until you looked it up and posted the definition.
You can be objective and still be negative. You can be objective and still be positive. Two people can look at the same thing objectively and come up on different sides of the positive/negative scale. No matter how objectively you look at something, at some point, you're going to have to run observations through a value system.
I re-read the first post in this thread again... and am missing the bias that is seemingly assumed.
AKDejaVu
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where did I say I was talking for all players?
objectivity? bah no such thing. Do you think you are objective?
If anything my opinion is "more" objective then yours since I have no interest at all if wwiiol suceeds or fails.
You and Hardcase do, therefore you can not be objective.
Read my 1st post in this thread. I gave an aar of my last sortie in wwiol then explained why I was cancelling my account again. You and hardcase tried to imply that the reasons I gave were
1. the result of me lying
2. being to stupid to figure the game out
3. hating wwiiol and wanting them to fail.
Finally it was shown that all the bugs I listed were true you moved on to "well its getting better with the next release". I have heard that same spin from the 1st day I played wwiiol.
I kept a paid account there for almost 6 months waiting for it to get better. It never did.
Am I "biased"? You bet. When something is crap I tell folks its crap. Thats as far as it goes.
If wwiiol is the game you say it is you wouldnt need to keep poppin in here to counter it with a differenmt arguement.
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absolutes..some stayed in ww2ol and didnt come back to AH
Deceit>>where? Since this is personal now, where have i ever been deceitful?
Some guy tells me how to cheat dale. Why would I want to know that?
I did a my bad. ..he wasn't asking me to cheat, he was merely telling me how.
Show the deceit
The want to fail was for Mighty..read his post and put a diff twist on it
hardcase
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what makes you think this is being done with a "need" to do it? Wishful thinking?
There i go again putting words in peoples mouths. There you go again assuming motives for starters.
Wonder how many other ppl ARE taking the info and using it. I wonder how many would cheat ww2ol if they could. Can I post that in ww2ol. I wont be encouraging them to cheat, I will be merely passing on info.
hardcase
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Every time you twist away on the issue brought forth, you are being deceitful.
Every time you say you don't know about gameplay issues that anyone playing the game and reading the boards as much as you do (Luger snipers?) is being deceitful.
Every time you knock an honest review as merely biased or ignorant, you are being deceitful.
You know the truth. You know they are speaking the truth. I'm convinced now that isn't the point with you, never really was. Keep inviting those swimmers into the surf, don't tell them about the glass.
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BTW, where's your review? Too chicken to do it? ;)
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knocking opinions is deceitful? Soo many ppl have sooo many problems with THEIR machines..I have been doing techy for the last year. Updates behind, drivers poorly installed, firewalls in the way lots of things that ppl blame on the sim and call "bugs" So, I'l always be around when opinions are posted.
BTW..I really didn't know about the luger AND the frenchy gun. I live in the community forum. Why would I lie? Would you like ppl to believe I am lying? Will that bolster your position? Prolly lots of bugs I dont know about, dont see when I do run across em, some things bugged I dont even play. Sapper..prolly 3 times in a year.
hardcase
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review of ww2ol? or ah?
I am too close to ww2ol to give it a balanced review. Others are too lightly in it to give it balance also.
But
lastest is in PC Games UK mag for ww2ol..
Found out there is a 3 page review in a french gaming mag and a 1 page in another for ww2ol.I'll try and get a translation for you.
PC Games gave it a 70%. Warts and all. It is in english.
hardcase
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Those same people, OTOH, can run virtually any other game they want to.
Indeed, it's the game. The code *IS* poorly written.
And before you imply my system is fugged up, I build my own, am a hardware/software tech, and have been troubleshooting own computers for over 9 years now.
-SW
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HC, you are mistaken, I think I have been very patient. I don't believe I have a position to bolster here at all.
Since you apparently don't know what I am talking about WRT "review", it's obvious you don't completely read anything... which explains why you miss things on the BBS you frequent that anyone who reads the boards even occasionally knows about.
Here it is again in fewer words to help you out... since you are not happy with our reviews, write a WWIIOL review of your own.
In case you skip over this, I will repeat it for you.
Since you are not happy with our reviews, write a WWIIOL review of your own.
Can you find the question now? ;)
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Kieran,
Like I said, I'm not objecting to them stating their opinion.
I just don't like the way some says it, in very bad way.
Theres been a straight lie or two, unneeded exageration, unreasonable expectations put on developers...
I haven't objected to single good argument and with some I have agreed out loud and not kept all the agreement in my mind only.
One can express his opinion in any manner he likes, but wouldn't it be much better to do it with some consideration and with respect towards the others?
I have tried and will try my best to keep respect towards the others (with one definite exception)
However I might not sound all so respectable at times when I do try to keep it respectable - that is due to culturacial differencies and foreign language. (Finns are more straightward with the speaking.. bit hard to explain properly though)
AKdejavu,
Some people here hasn't been discussing objectively when 'stating their opinion' of WWIIOL.
Objectively means the person will not lie, exagerate nor have unreasonable expectations for one, but not for the other and he will also objectively read others posts.
This should work both ways, then it works the best.
Wotan,
I didn't claim you would talking for all the players, I were just reminding of the other people outside the discussion.
I don't remember you would have lied, haven't either implied you of lying as far as I remember.
What I remember is that you took that claim from the time when I were talking in general and you mistook it as if I were sort of hinting "you have done so", never named you though.
Didn't I already try to fix the misunderstanding after the first time you referred on the "claim" of lying?
What was the problem with your AAR, was the talk about luger sniping.
Played the game, studied on the issue more than just relying on the playskoolists talking, I don't agree with it.
Have talked with gun collectors and researched quite a bit about WWII weapons myself, I see the pistols working within the limits of real life.
Pistol shouldn't either work anymore to clip tanks and if does, it should be reported and I'm sure CRS will fix it as they have so far done, with good results on that particular issue.
However I've never said it would get fixed right in the next release.
From the experience I thought the time it would take for something to be fixed.
Lots of things said here have been fixed long time ago, and some has been stil kept insisted after saying about it.
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...and no fair cutting-n-pasting someone else's work. The issue is whether or not you can be unbiased. Be careful, I guarantee I will pick through it with a fine-tooth comb.
You're about to be measured by the same stick you wield... assuming you have the guts to write one.
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reread the post..My review prolly would be as biased as yours.
read the pc game review.
hardcase
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Hint about those magazines, they get a lil' funding for writing those reviews.
-SW
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and crs would have a slush fund where? Strat first didnt want to pub the mac version. They offer no support.
Keep that thought, may it bring comfort to you as ww2ol improves. The reviews will always be lies cause crs has so much money and power and influence that no one can stand in their way
hardcase
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AKSWulfe,
Finnish Pelit Magazine did recently review the game, with fair points.
I'm pretty sure they didn't have a dime to affect the outcome.
However I'm doubtful of these UK/US game magazines, which runs circle around the hype money due to big competition.
(not much competition in Finland between game mags :D)
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Who was the founder of CRS, was he an ex WB guy also? I heard the whole crew at CRS were from the old WB crew.
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Nope, I would never believe any "reviewer"... I'd believe a group of reviewers, namely the guys I know are competent with computers, games, and know what makes a good game and what makes a crappy one. But the ones in magazines, pfffttt, I don't trust a word they say.
Il2 got something like a 94% on some French mag... I would of given it a 70%. Graphics, FM, and DM don't make a complete air combat "simulation". Campaign, depth, user interface, and involvement make a game.
I don't want to go into WW2Ol, because I'll just get sucked into arguing about it.
-SW
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I trust my opinion pretty much on my own feelings about the game..
They give excellent points for some quakes etc., while I feel those games over rated and meanwhile same reviewer can give low points for game I really like.
Ps. wheres all the dynamic campaigns from the games with single play option :(
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And I never questioned your opinion Fishu.
You, OTOH, questioned my opinion and my motives for my opinion essentially calling me a hypcrtical liar with an agenda.
-SW
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just for giggles..i could start my review like this
lets see..drivers correctly installed.
Updates up to date from Microsoft
Cable traceroute Clean.
Installed to default directories.
Settings set for my machine for max FPS
2100xp
1 gig 333 mhz memory
Geforce 4 4600ti 15% OC
40 atat100 7200rpm HD
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz.
seems like a standard rig for a test. Damn ww2ol runs great! Got Bugs. CRS seems dedicated to fixing everything. Is it there, not yet. Is it on its way, most definetly. For an evening of fun for 33 cents a night, it is well worth the bargain.
Since this writing crs has raised the cost to about 40 cents a day. There goes the dream house.
now fault it]
hardcase
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
And I never questioned your opinion Fishu.
You, OTOH, questioned my opinion and my motives for my opinion essentially calling me a hypcrtical liar with an agenda.
-SW
You told your opinion of me, I simply replied with my opinion of you with an assumption of your agendas.
Saying you have no agenda, but claiming I do and after having replied many times, I made the conclusion you must be having an agenda.
Due to your way of representing the 'agenda' in bad light and denying you would be having an agenda, I proceeded to call it hypocritisicm.
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I never said anything about you, you were the first one to pull it out.
Just like you were the first one to say I have an agenda. Don't recall saying you had one either.
You ARE the master at interpreting words for your own benefit, though, I can see right through it.
This thread is just getting down right retarded, you guys go play WW2Ol. Leave us to our opinions.
I'm going to play AH and Il2, bye-bye dingleberries.
-SW
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I'm not twisting anything... but I give up on arguing with you, because you seem to think I have some sort of hidden agenda.
Aside from the fact that I think WWIIOl sucks donkey ass, and I would never recommend it to anyone... I have no agenda.
Like I said tho, you started off comparing AH to WWIIOl... the rest of us have been giving our critiques of that toejam in a box.
Then my post comes after that..
I'm pretty certain your post was wee bit different by the time I replied.
You said you don't have no agenda and then proceeding to accuse me or hardcase of having an agenda (which I assumed which was me since there was quotation of my words few lines below)
So I will dare to claim you have edited the post soon after I replied - either recently or right after you posted it, but unfortunately I were able to see the original post before your immediate restructuring of the post when you noticed a bad wording.
No, it doesn't either at all times leave "has edited this post timetimetime" tag after editing.
I've edited few of my posts to edit grammar or to add more responses and noticed already yesterday it hadn't left 'edited' tag in all the posts.
...this post has been edited.
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...your post neither did include denying of agenda twice, only once as the first words in a sentence, not as last words in a sentence and in the same sentence only accusing of either of us having an agenda.
These insists of not having agenda comes before my post which accuses you of having an agenda.
By searching, nobody else claimed you of having an agenda in the earlier posts before yours.
Only afterwards.
I don't make this kind of claims if it hasn't happened.
I know what there was posted and why I replied about the agendas in hostile manner.
Especially I remember the times when I have to reply in hostile/accusing manner.
No twisting of words.
You others can make your own conclusions.
I'm pretty sure it is disbelief towards me, but I've said this in all honesty and thats what matters to me.
I can't prove much more than that due to editing tags missing.
After looking into the 'edited tags', it seems the forum software does add edited tag only after a time since the posting.
Edited within few minutes of the posting does not add the edited tag, so far by the tests.
So I belive AKSWulfe edited the original post, which I replied to, shortly after posting it - probably with meaning to take away the accusations when having a thought the post wasn't good.
It is up to AKSWulfe whether he wants to admit it or use the benefit of it to defame me.
I believe it was unintended mishappening.
lets see.. this post has been edited three times, on two times no edit tag.
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lets see..drivers correctly installed.
Updates up to date from Microsoft
Cable traceroute Clean.
Installed to default directories.
Settings set for my machine for max FPS
So far, so good.
2100xp
1 gig 333 mhz memory
Geforce 4 4600ti 15% OC
40 atat100 7200rpm HD
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz.
Oops! System specs on the box, the same box you buy when you buy the game even now, lists:
Pentium II 400, 128MB RAM, 16MB 3D Video Card, DirectSound Compatible Audio Card, 8X CD-ROM, 56K modem minimum,
Pentium III 600, 256MB RAM, 32MB 3D Video Card, DirectSound Compatible Audio Card, 40X CD-ROM, 56K modem recommended.
Seems like after a year and a re-release CRS would demand the box be changed to accurately reflect the true and well-known specs, right? It also seems that when you brag about how well others got the game to run on low-end systems, you know for a fact that is unrealistic, then you apply the double-standard of ridiculing anyone who doesn't have a high-end machine because "they should know better". Hardly. Truth in advertising doesn't hurt a product.
seems like a standard rig for a test.
Well, which is it? Either low end machines can run this game fine and you can help them do it, or it is unreasonable for a person with a low end machine to complain about the game. You can't play it both ways.
Damn ww2ol runs great!
Define "great". What you consider "great" and what I consider "great" seem to have a wide gulf between them. And, since I am reviewing the review, I reserve the right to call your viewpoint bogus. Thus I pull the HC ace of saying, "Is not great".
Got Bugs.
No, a rotting 10-day-old opossum dead on the road has bugs. It would take the light from CRS's fiasco 100 years to reach that status level. A more accurate review would say, "Never in the history of gaming, not even Derek Smart and 'Battlecruiser' A.D., has such a corrupt, unsuitable, and totally inadequately prepared piece of software been illicitly offered up as 'ready for consumption'."
CRS seems dedicated to fixing everything.
Define "seems". Compared to what? How long between patches? How long between discovering a bug and actually doing something about it? How much denial of a problem precedes actually acknowledging the problem exists, and then, the cycle to implement change?
Is it there, not yet.
Not only is it not "there", it can't even see "there" on the horizon.
Is it on its way, most definetly.
Most definitely. The company is in Chapter 11, over half the employees are laid off, and it can be had in the garbage bins now, bundled with two other titles for $9.95 as I write this. Well, two out of three ain't bad. ;)
For an evening of fun for 33 cents a night, it is well worth the bargain.
Now wait a second, earlier in the day you, in proper elitist fashion, claimed you were after the "interest" of WWIIOL and not the "fun" of AH, hinting you were somehow too sophisticated to look for fun. So... is WWIIOL "fun"? Judging by how you have time to post on this BBS while playing the game, I somehow doubt the veracity of that comment. When I play a game I find "fun" I don't look for an escape from the mind-numbing boredom of waiting for someone to haul my artillery to the front, nor do I consider opening a second account so I can do it myself.
Since this writing crs has raised the cost to about 40 cents a day. There goes the dream house.
More accurately, CRS gave two day's notice of a 33% price increase. No spinning that one. How many people split on that one? Incredibly, CRS is hell-bent on discovering new ways to piss off customers. Just when you think they can't do anything else wrong, they re-invent themselves and go one lower.
now fault it]
Ok, I'll take a stab at it... you don't even have the confidence in yourself or the game to write anything more than the most generic piece of fluff that said virtually nothing. You did surprise me and didn't at the same time; you did and didn't write a review. Taking a critical view of your critical view tells me you are purposely obfuscating, much the same as you do in any conversation you've had here. Before you ask "Where have I obfuscated?" just pick a spot anywhere in this thread where a post is headed "Hardcase".
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CRS cant demand anything. Systems specs did change with the latest release from Strat First. I don't know what they are.
System specs are always a minimum to play. How long do you want to beat that dead horse?
So, keep living in june 2001 and post that same old rant.
This lastest one with the graphic rewrite has been what..2 months since the last one? So...what it they take 3 months. It takes as long as it takes
And it's doors are still open, they seem to have enought employees.
I wasnt upset about the 2 day notice.
So, you seem to have reviewed CRS.
You set yourself up as the reviewer. Me, I will read what other say. What wording about..for giggles..didnt you understand. It was more a poke at those who didnt even bother and still dont have their gaming computers up to date.
Waiting on my leaping to your suggestion to do what you did? No thanks. I know better.
hardcase
hardcase
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But... I have to continue to live in June 2001 because the box on the shelf as of September 26, 2002 still touts the same specs. Get the point? ;)
I'm glad the two day notice didn't bug you- it didn't bug me either. It was still a stupid thing to do nonethless. And it did obviously bug a large number of people.
Yup, the doors are still open- for now. You have the mistaken idea the Mac side will save it. Riddle me this; if their PC coders can't even get it right (and they haven't), what makes you think the Mac port will be any less of a turd with even fewer people working on it? Only thing that's going to happen now is the world is going to have a few more pissed off graphic artists/gamers. ;)
I didn't set myself up as the reviewer, I played the role of Hardcase while you played the role of, say... vulcan, the guy who started this thread. "Turnabout is fair play" and all that jazz. So, you didn't think my review of your review was legit? Why is it ok when you do it?
Hey, I know why you didn't really try- you knew you would have to tell so many obvious lies to be upbeat (if you said anything specific) that I would have had a field day ripping it to shreds. So instead you really said nothing at all. Some review. ;)
I can't even decipher what you said there at the end. There were some english words in it, but no real content.
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Waiting on my leaping to your suggestion to do what you did? No thanks. I know better.
Wait... I do get it now. You know that if you write a real review, and state anything specific, I'll rip it to shreds. Righto. And all I'll have to do is tell the truth- or expose the half-truths you are telling.
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Let's call the lawyers, I'm sure they could do superb job at digging up even the microscopical faults from WWIIOL.. but would those REALLY ruin the game?
so erm.. let's get back on those real issues rather instead of sounding childish okey :>
or better yet, make a peace and let the people be who doesnt like and who likes the game.
Some people doesn't like it because;
it takes too long to get into action
some decisions by CRS aren't good
there are bugs which CRS hasn't fixed yet
and some people likes it because;
theres no other game which would even try to simulate the same
it's about real war to them
it's fun just because it's fun to them..
(..and whatever wasnt listed)
Nobody has changed their minds, people has obviously had good time wasting their time... (or are "you" going to imply "you" haven't liked posting and still have posted tens of times during the days?)
Thats all we've made achieved with 300+ posts.
Was it smart? no
Was it constructive? no
Was it objectively? no
Was it good? no
Was it BS? yes.
So, what are we still arguing?
Let's let others be with their thoughts and let people make up their own mind whether they like it or not.
No need to convince them it's the best or worst game of the year.
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You really want to start this over..Ok..I will probably have a complete one in a week or two. It will probably be quite long and involved. At least when you try to rip it to shreds in your mind, you will actually have to work at it. Perhaps get an account for a month. Wonder how you will review the graphic engine and Bofor etc.
you played the last welcome back.didnt you? I will find out when that was..I suspect your info might be a little dated but you will find a way.
How large a post can this bbs handle?
Do remember, you invited me to do a ww2ol review in AH O Club Forum.
hardcase
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Actually, I can defeat the edited tags if I want to. Press the delete key multiple times, then backspace over the last character. Type it again, and hit the delete key a couple more times.
No mo' "edited..." tags when the message has been edited.
However, if you want to accuse me of removing content of accusing you or Hardcase of something.. you can by all means do that.
But that's one thing I don't do, if it is directed at someone, I leave it.
-SW
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You don't have to look... I played under a paid account, "Kieren" during June and July. It was the version you are playing today. Sorry, the standard, "You must be playing an old version" routine won't work. Next?
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The one I am playing now will be out of date in a week. I will be reviewing. Some interview with the rats, a first iteration beta tester insights, a complete review from purchasing, install, setup, Air, Ground and some short review of sea. A look at the old and the new vehicles. The background strategy that is evolving. Missions, Rank, Squads. Damage model, perhaps a few damage logs from beta. Physics, my degree btw, Gunnery, etc.I think I can make quite a good review. Everyone word will be the truth as far as I can know.
I hope a balanced indepth substantial reveiw.
hardcase
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Fishu-
Once and for all, and for the sake of sanity, understand what it is about you and Hardcase that has people pissed here... you refuse to let anyone say they dislike the game. Period. You refuse to let them hold an opinion that is negative about that game. Period. You refuse to let them express themselves clearly and without comparing to anything else but that game. Period. You call to question their bias, intelligence, and attention span whenever they express dislike. Period.
Are you getting it now?
What's going to be fun about HC's review is that he will get to see exactly how he's treated others.
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I'm sorry, attacking it wont be easy. You need blind opinion. Why would I write an opininated review? It will be quite accurate and detailed. Warts and all. For all of AH to see.
hardcase
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A more accurate review would say, "Never in the history of gaming, not even Derek Smart and 'Battlecruiser' A.D., has such a corrupt, unsuitable, and totally inadequately prepared piece of software been illicitly offered up as 'ready for consumption'."
Erm, go try Battlecruiser Millenium, the product that was REALLY released by 3000AD (the company). 3000AD.com even released BC3K v2.09 (game title finished and trimmed outta bugs) for FREE after the company got the rights to their own game back from the publisher (Take2).
The original Battlecruiser game, was released UNFINISHED and without the consent of the developer by Take2 (a now already bankrupt company, thank yawsh!).
Now we compare that to WW2OL,
WW2OL was released unfinished, is still unfinished and even still is advertised AS a working title. Still up to today.
But there's no quality control in software releases, just look at what Microsoft gets away with. Half-assed companies like CRS just hop onto the caravan and help pull the carts. Who'se to tell them what they're doing is illegal? If we were to pass a box of WW2OL as it was released originally and compare it to what is advertised on it.. its a blatant case of false advertising...and as far as I know thats punishable by law. Its the same thing if someone were to pick up a few tablets of Rat Poison in the local supermarket and consumed them because the label read it was headache medicine.
I submitted a complaint to the Better Bussiness Beaurou (or however you spell that..damn French! ;) ) a week after I bought WW2OL and found I could not return it or get my money back for such piece of garbage. Was the only thing I could do against those con artists.
For kicks, go pull a report of CRS on the BBB. It advises (or did back when i went through all this) not to do bussiness with them.
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Originally posted by Tac
A more accurate review would say, "Never in the history of gaming, not even Derek Smart and 'Battlecruiser' A.D., has such a corrupt, unsuitable, and totally inadequately prepared piece of software been illicitly offered up as 'ready for consumption'."
Erm, go try Battlecruiser Millenium, the product that was REALLY released by 3000AD (the company). 3000AD.com even released BC3K v2.09 (game title finished and trimmed outta bugs) for FREE after the company got the rights to their own game back from the publisher (Take2).
The original Battlecruiser game, was released UNFINISHED and without the consent of the developer by Take2 (a now already bankrupt company, thank yawsh!).
Now we compare that to WW2OL,
WW2OL was released unfinished, is still unfinished and even still is advertised AS a working title. Still up to today.
But there's no quality control in software releases, just look at what Microsoft gets away with. Half-assed companies like CRS just hop onto the caravan and help pull the carts. Who'se to tell them what they're doing is illegal? If we were to pass a box of WW2OL as it was released originally and compare it to what is advertised on it.. its a blatant case of false advertising...and as far as I know thats punishable by law. Its the same thing if someone were to pick up a few tablets of Rat Poison in the local supermarket and consumed them because the label read it was headache medicine.
I submitted a complaint to the Better Bussiness Beaurou (or however you spell that..damn French! ;) ) a week after I bought WW2OL and found I could not return it or get my money back for such piece of garbage. Was the only thing I could do against those con artists.
For kicks, go pull a report of CRS on the BBB. It advises (or did back when i went through all this) not to do bussiness with them.
Tac, Why don't you quit sugarcoating your review? All we want to know is if you liked the game or not. Sheeesh.
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You can supply any opinion you want. I will let AH read my review. Con artiist could well be libellous since it will impinge on someone's ability to conduct business. You if I were a rat, I would take one of the persons who post beyond legal bounds and nail em to the wall.. just a thought. Cant wait to see all those reviewing skills in action.
hardcase
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First of all, there are no legal bounds for any of us to post about WW2Ol.
Second of all, any legal proceedings would be nullified by offering up evidence that the product released on the CD does not match the product advertised, on the box nor currently.
So, if they wanna take legal course against anyone... they can go right on ahead, and find themselves in a world of hurt.
-SW
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I'm sorry, attacking it wont be easy. You need blind opinion. Why would I write an opininated review? It will be quite accurate and detailed. Warts and all. For all of AH to see.
On the contrary, attacking your opinion will be simplicity itself. All I need do is deny, minimize, and deflect. It will be a Hardcasesque application in the classic sense. See, if I play by your rules, reasoning and truth don't have a great deal of anything to do with it. Deny I know anything about what I don't want to address, minimalize the things you can prove, distract against points that you make that make sense. Easy as pie- as you should know.
Why would I write an opininated review?
That you could even say this with a straight face says loads, doesn't it? ;)
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Perhaps you should read the disclaimer on the box:-) But we digress. Wonder how many I will reach?
I couldn't have done so in good etiquette to post one here before the invitation. I will write one and you guys will try to find a flaw to attack. We should have some good threads about ww2ol in AH.
hardcase
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Originally posted by hardcase
You can supply any opinion you want. I will let AH read my review. Con artiist could well be libellous since it will impinge on someone's ability to conduct business. You if I were a rat, I would take one of the persons who post beyond legal bounds and nail em to the wall.. just a thought. Cant wait to see all those reviewing skills in action.
hardcase
Hardcase, if you need a good attorney with experience in deflamation of character over the internet lawsuits then ask Voss for a recomendation. He's currently suing half the people here.
Splash splash Kieran:)
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Har, har. As if you needed an invitation to pontificate about that game.
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This will actually be a review. Pontification will come later. Question is, who will be doing it.
BTW..this is number 400
hardcase
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This isnt a review but it will give some idea of the depth I plan on going into.
0168? What happened to 0167? It has been almost 10 weeks since we posted the first 0167 Dev Notes and in that time we have released almost weekly to the beta. This has pushed us past the 0167 designation. Beta is now at 01671 and will be released as 0168. That’s quite a lot of Beta for us as our testers can attest. What all that testing has done brings us to today’s announcement. As we get closer to the release of 0168 it is important to review just what is expected to be in the patch and what will be coming both before and after the patch. The following is an update to the original outline of features for the upcoming release with many new things added and a general overview of the feature set for 0168.
0168:
Attrition:The original plan going into this update was to continue on the attrition first implemented in 0166. The plan called for making sappers and smgs attrited along with everything else that was added in 0166. Following the Event Server Test we had last week we are more confident in adding attrition. For 0168 the only general vehicles available to any country will be riflemen and one plane. This will bring us closer to the full attrition that we feel is the future for WWIIOL.
Further limited attrition will be a major shift in game play and needs to be planned for by the community. To understand attrition and its affect on game play you have to grasp what Ownership and Control are and how they operate in the game. There will be a more in depth discussion of how this will affect game play prior to the 0168 Test (see below).
Sentries:The greatest threat to full attrition is the fully suppressed AB. To this end we are adding the Alert system to the game. The Alert system is based on the AB and detects vehicles that come within a predetermined distance. These distances vary depending on vehicle type (troop, tank, plane, boat). The Alert system includes map icons and occasional HQ messages that can Alert players to detected enemies.
The system is designed to replicate lookouts and sentries and not radar. The detection ranges are based on what a person on the ground can see and hear. They are not designed to replace the need for human intel, they are designed to simply detect enemies who are close to the AB.
Firebases:When we posted about FBs in the original Dev Note we said that we had decided to not change FB to sapper only due in large part to community opinion. We will not be changing this for 0168. The debate, however, continues. If you have opinions on this matter please make them known to us. We will be bringing a poll up to gauge community concerns after 0168.
Vehicles:BlenIV – New dive angle at 40 degrees and the ability to jettison bombs.SA-L Mle34 – New sight.Bofors 40mm – Medium AA gun for the British, tow only.Vickers Light tank – First .50 caliber MG in the game.Morris CDSW – Puller for the Bofors.Fairmille – HE now available to the main gun.Binoculars – New Infantry load out available to Captains and above.
Textures:The new textures were announced and previewed in the original Dev Notes but that does not begin to describe what DirectX 8.1 entails. The update will bring new lighting to every texture in WWIIOL. The specular and ambient lighting are very nice, giving water a glint from the sun and giving a tactile feel to cloth and metal surfaces throughout the game. I hope to have screenshots for you by the end of the week.
Sound:The list of sound enhancements has grown steadily since we began this dev cycle and includes panning, Doppler and hardware acceleration support.
Effects:Since we posted the original Dev Notes we have begun an audit of our effects system and expect it to be partially done for this release. New bullet holes have been shown and we will be adding new grenade scorch, new impact smoke and a host of other effects in this patch and in the patches to come. We expect everything in the effects system to receive an audit in the coming months.
AI:The AI machine gun and anti-tank guns have been retuned. This gives the player with a modibody fluid of situational awareness a much greater opportunity to survive an encounter with them. We have decreased the accuracy of the guns and no longer allow them to track players outside their field of fire. AA will not be altered.
Terrain:The biggest news for terrain is certainly the new textures but we have also been hard a t work adding new towns. This update brings almost 30 new towns to the map in the east and the west as well as new airfields at Bitburg, Reims and Metz.
Bugs and Fixes:The list for fixes is too big to post here but some of the highlights are:Fixed multi-crew bugs for vehicles with deploy (He111, Stug, AT guns).Fixed Airplane collisions with ground vehicles.AI no longer kills friendly units.Infantry collisions with vehicles.
Before the patch:
We will be hosting 0168 on the Event server for a few days beginning next week. We will be using this open testing to allow players to give us feedback on performance and other issues that might come up due to the vast amount of code changed for Dx8.1 implementation. This open test will be different from our open test for 0160 in that we are not testing new rule sets but instead are looking for performance testing. To this end do not expect the server to be up for great lengths of playtime during prime time. We will open the server at a variety of times and over several days in order for as many people as possible to report on their experience.
After the Patch:
The ’41 vehicle set is progressing along very nicely. We are planning to release the French and German scout cars as ’40 vehicles as soon as they are both ready but we will not hold 0168 for them. Following that release we will be putting together the first ’41 vehicle set for release. Many of these vehicles are already complete and waiting for 0168 to go live so that the remainder can be finished.
If you have questions about the 0168 release or would like to discuss any of the features a thread has been started here
I plan on writing a tad more.
hardcase
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hehe, you think you have been behaving in good ettiquette? Spam is good ettiquette? This isn't the first time you've behaved as a rude guest, but it is certainly the most insistant you have been.
Notice you don't want to talk about the current game anymore, nor do you care to write a counter-review to what Vulcan wrote. Could it be that you plan to use the ol' "you haven't played this version, so you don't know" card? Naw, you wouldn't pull that cheap trick. ;)
FWIW, my invitation was for you to write a review of the current game, the one we have played. I mean, after all, if we got the review wrong it is only fair that you set the record straight on the same version, right? Apples to apples and such. No, you will probably take the cheap way out. ;)
I still say you don't have it in you to write an unbiased piece on that game, this version or any version.
And let's do this another way while we're at it... you have a point about doing this on the AH BBS... it isn't my place, so I cannot "invite" you to advertise. You post your review and link it to this BBS. We can lift the finer points off as necessary.
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Bad form, HC, that is lifted right off the development news from the HQ site. You don't mean to tell me you are only going to rip off someone else's writing, do you? ;)
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current game. The game is always in flux. Some problem with this next version I shouldnt talk about? You should be able to tear it up, remember the basics are flawed and the rats are incompetent.
I tried to back out of doing this. You wanted to twist me in the wind a moment. So I called you on this. Read the last post from me. There are no changes in the flight model other than the titanium control surfaces on the 109. Nothing has changed in the ground vehicles except some additioins. Dont worry, you can tear it up. I believe this is going to take at least 2 weeks to do. The game will have changed by then and a review tomorrow would be inaccurate.
I believe i stated this was not a review..it is exactly that. Taken off developers forum.
Dont worry, my work will be original.
hardcase
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Ok, but you don't get the easy out of saying, "You haven't played this version, you don't know". Once you pull that card, you lose.
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Using that card would be a cheap shot wouldnt it? Now, you might have to get an account to confirm what I say or dont say. Do you plan on taking my word for it?...just wondering..will you take an account to tear my review up?..13 bucks...all it takes.
You can post all you like there too.
hardcase
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No, the "basic flaws" are you and Fishu will not allow people here who have played the game to state their opinions. It seems you have entirely missed the point of this 400+ post thread. Not surprising, really, given the zealot you have been for that game.
In truth, I don't care a bit about CRS or WWIIOL. I washed my hands of that fiasco long ago. What I can't abide is you carrying that sycophant attitude over here and attempting to outshout people who have done everything possible to be fair and try the game you love so much- which by the way is far more than you ever did for AH- 'course that didn't keep you from throwing jabs at AH, did it? (hypocrite)
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Fair? That pretty much wasnt the case, but that is my opinion. I am thinking of adding pics too..Keymapper, new vehicles.. some FPS shots of my machine playing. This is really taking shape. Links to player videos..way cool.
I will post it and credit you with inviting me to., Hell I might sell it to someone.
hardcase:D
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I can pretty much assure you I wouldn't give you the satisfaction of ever giving WWIIOL another shot- good job, "spokesman". As for your review, I'll just pretend I am you attacking a negative WWIIOL review. It'll be easy. Truth won't have a thing to do with it.
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Excellent!.. I hope so. As long as it is read.
hardcase
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Now stop and ask yourself something, in all seriousness... you have come to the competition's backyard and teased the dogs. You are currently engaged in an argument because you wouldn't allow people here an opinion. Now you plan on abusing this service for more CRS proselytizing, and you really want us to believe you have good intentions?
One of us has to grow up and stop this. I withdraw the offer for the review. I haven't the right to ask for it here. If you post it here you do so on your own accord, I will not be party to it.
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Feel the force, young skywalker.
hardcsse
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Sweet jebus save me!
9 Pages... really... 9 damn pages!
Is this really worth it?
Hardcase, by now it's about 5people against, 2for... odds are, anyone who read this thread won't give WW2Ol a shot.
Just scramble back to your bug infested fox hole and enjoy your game.
And besides, no, I didn't read the box. Remember, free trial?.. what does it say on the box, "Actual features may differ from content on CD"? "Actual screenshots may differ from game material"? Either one... it still ain't wise for them to bring about legal action on those who accuse them of misleading consumers and lies... unless of course they purged their 1 1/2+ years of development postings..... have they? In any event, they'd be up toejam's creek without a paddle.
-SW
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Understand, I still think you're a jerk, but I don't have the right to invite competitor's advertisement on this service, comprende? I realize this isn't your house and you don't really care about how much mud can be slung, 'specially since you can retreat to the cozy, protected cocoon that is the CRS BBS. Fact is, I was wrong to be party in any way to you bringing competitive material here.
Use some common sense.
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Forget it SW.. now its more about who gets the last word in on this thread. Would be kinda nice if it were someone from HTC followed immediately with a padlock.
AKDejaVu
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Well damn. Now you know why I didnt want to do it to begin with.
Contrary to belief I have been in forums for long enought to know the line to be drawn. I woulda pissed more ppl than you off, and that woulda been somethign I didn't want to do. Remember, be careful what you wish for..or dare someone to do.
The quote.... "It will take about 2 weeks" seems to sum it up.
I got into this 400 post monstrosity and Fishu and I were trying to ease out....
hardcase
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No hardcase.. you were never trying to ease out or this thread would have been over after about 50 posts. You're trying to get the last word as if that has somehow become what this thread is all about.
But then... You'll probably post about how wrong I am here... or joke about how you just had to post again. Afterall.. its everyone else that has the problems.
AKDejaVu
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Voss will sue the next person who posts on this thread for "violation of T of S." I will sue the next person who posts on this thread for "cruel and unusual boredom."
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Originally posted by Mighty1
So do us all a favor and take your BS posts back to the kiddy UBB you came from.
Mighty, after reading THIS (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65389) I would suggest that nobody on the AH board ever talk about kiddy UBB's ever again :mad:
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Originally posted by Kieran
"My" opinion is that WWIIOL is crap in its current condition, for reasons too numerous and pervasive to enumerate to a person who really doesn't care to discuss or consider the points. It is an opinion that is shared by several people, including most members of this board apparently, and it is a view I am entitled to hold as 100% accurate for me. It is an opinion that is shared by more and more members of your service, too, judging by the posts on your BBS.
Geez, Keiran.. make up your mind will you?
"This time around I see a community that for the most part is beginning to understand more what a community should be like. There are some class people that make it worth hanging around, the play is much more stable, and all-in-all it is a pretty fun game...... The flight models are fine as they are now. There are things still missing, like damage (visible), component failure with damage is incomplete, and there are some key missing elements in air, sea, and land, but the game is fun. "
I suppose your opinion depends upon where you are posting, right Keiran?
diddlyin hypocrites :)
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Kieran,
Once and for all, whats so hard just coming and telling you don't like the game.
With all the effort you've used to argue, you could have wrote a page long post telling why don't you like it and people would have actually have better time reading than trying to find the bits and pieces of your opinion.
Currently I see this more of a useless argument than saying "I don't like it"
If you haven't noticed so far, I haven't called up anything when people hasn't been talking BS.
I don't refuse anyone to tell their dislike the game, but I don't either see one point in arguing.
Besides, aren't I also limiting then the WWIIOL 'fanbois' from saying they like the game and to defend it?
I pointed it to everyone... and now you take it as if I would have said it only to 'disliking' side in attempt to stop the dislike flood
So whats so unfair in this.
Get some common sense please, take a break and think if you, hardcase, me, wulfe, thrawn... etc. has had any real point in the talks of "disliking"/"liking" the game.
It's just a never ending merry-go-round of accusations, not anymore about stating whether you like or dislike the game.
Thats my view into it, I'm not trying to limit anything but the silly arguments. (read: the silly arguments... it means the silly ones only, not all of those.. if it's so hard to understand, as it has seemed to been for a few)
Although I should know better the american 'freedom of speech' praising, where common sense isn't allowed, just the invidual interests matters.
but fine, do whatever you wan't and forget the fact I was saying it to both sides, not just to dislikers "in attempt to limit them from stating their opinions"
Your constant accusations of me trying to limit people from STATING THEY DISLIKE the game has angried me.
In truth, I don't care a bit about CRS or WWIIOL. I washed my hands of that fiasco long ago
It is funny that people who don't care a bit, are one of the most dedicated in lenghtening totally unconstructive discussions which probably nobody will read from the begining to end and most likely will not even read the people saying what they like about the game.
People have been for a while way beyond the line of saying they 'dislike/like' the game.
and now you're already getting into personal attacks only.. are you now perhaps using your american freedom of speech model to say "you dislike us" in a thread about WWIIOL?
Use some common sense
[/b]
One whos using his american freedom of speech which lacks the common sense, is telling to use common sense.. here we go.
Your common sense tells you I was trying to limit people from saying they dislike the game, even when it would equally as well limit the ones liking the game.
Your common of sense tells all my efforts are hypocritical efforts to make the disliking side to shut up.
Your common sense makes it smarter for you to rather go in bits & pieces arguments rather than use constructive posts and let it be. (thats one wierd way to 'say' you dislike the game.. I would classify this argumentive way of 'saying' things as 'insisting')
...and so on forth.
Excuse me, thats not the 'common sense' I'm familiar with.
and yes, this is quite a bad post, because you, Kieran, pissed me off with your personal accusations and even worse, accused me biased even when I were trying to think of the common good and make a peace between the people in the thread.
I would have wanted to have the latest post as the last one or even better, had a nice post be my last one.
Too bad people using the common sense doesn't act sensible.
For a long time I've been in false impression of you being respectable and smart person.
So good bye.
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Uh, Jekyll? You notice I am not there anymore? You don't suppose there is a reason why, do you? Like maybe it doesn't take long playing to see more and more stuff pop up? I kept scooping turds out of the swimming pool until I realized I was swimming in a septic tank. I think if you read what I posted on that board before I left you'd know better than to post that last line.
Back atcha. ;)
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I must have missed the Voss suing people thread. Wazzup with that?
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Jekyll I read that post and it's nothing like the WWIIO UBB.
Braz is one person.....one person who thinks Tardcase is lying as usual and expresses his opinon over it.
Hell I don't believe anything Tardcase says anymore either. It's like listening to Voss all over again.
We have SOME immature people on this UBB(yeah me included) but it's no where near as bad as the WWIIO UBB.
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well, that's what I get for posting then waiting 20 hrs to come check. 120+ posts!
Hardcase. Bias as in the bias as to which players to show and which to hide due to the 64 visible player limit. Last time I tried the welcome back trial, the problem with enemy planes disappearing was still present. At the time, I believe that wasn't on the list to be fixed. However, it's about 8 months later, and I was wondering if that had ever been (or ever will be) addressed.
That has always been the #1 reason why I won't subscribe. I want to fly 95% of the time, and I'm not paying "40 cents a day" to have enemy planes disappear on me over a battlefield.
Right now though, I don't have the time to play another game, however, in the future I'd be interested, IF that ever gets fixed.
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When have I lied? Braz knew it was true, he just wanted to show his bellybutton and he did. Not a very pretty one either.
I was gone, but now someone thinks I lie. So, we begin again.
Keeping 64 things in your view..ambitious, not working correctly yet. Might not be an easy fix. Some may disappear when their conx go bad. Maybe CRS should stick with 32 max instead of reaching out.
BTW..are you saying you dont see ac disappear in AH? Does that mean you guys never have more than 32 ppl in view ever?
hardcase
hardcase
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the 32 closest planes are rendered in detail (bias toward nme planes). The rest show as dots or outlines (if in range they have an icon which is 6k yards in ah) but you can track them. They never disappear and the way the bias works I have never had a con suddenly appear out of no where.
I had 150 ju88s in the Battle of britain campaign flying in 15 plane gruppen. Some gruppen were combined into 45 plane formations and were attacked by 18 or so hurricanes and escorted by 18 lw fighters. In the films and from my observation as a gunner on one of those ju88s there was np tracking and observing the enemy.
We did big week scenario I have screens shot where you can count every b17 in a formation theres near 55 of umm.
In the ah sat cap events I was at a12 when 30-40 hurricanes took off from a12 not only were we able to track them but fight with no lag.
Theres no bugs in how it works either. There is no 32 plane limit in ah or any such limit.
I have seen the vanishing planes in wwiiol but it wasnt a problem for me.
Vulcan himself could tell you how planes observed uppin at a20 in the sat cap event. Heres his words (hes clearly exagerrating but the point is their were well over 32 or maybe even 64 enemy planes)
No, I was the insane P40 circling A20 and hiffing empty beer cans at the huns... twice. First time I ended up surrounded by about 8 or 9 109s, 2nd time I ended up diving through a huge gaggle of 110s, with two 109s chasing me like crazy. Or was it the other way round?
But I was also on Ch 2 telling the entire RAF that there was a large formation of 109s that had rtb'd, re-rolled, and re-fueled AND would arrive at A4 or A12 about the time respawning would occur. I then reported the big bellybutton mo fo respawning of about 500 110's just before I rolled in and shot half of em down... well mebbe a hundred... ahh ok two I think?
Try that in wwiiol and even your system will bog down.
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I've never seen an enemy plane that's right in front of me disappear in AH. I don't think I've ever seen any plane disappear in Aces High, even during the Big Week scenario when we attacked a huge buff stream. Wotan can attest to this, I was in his squad for that scenario. I was on Urchin's wing going in, and no plane in our forward view disappeared, at least not on my FE (front end). Maybe Wotan and Urchin can say if it happened on their FE.
Now, to be fair, I don't think I've ever had 64 planes sitting on my screen in Aces High. So I don't know how it'd happen in AH. Think about it though. Your field of view is what 45 degrees? it's going to be extremely rare if 32 or 64 planes will be directly in that 45 deg FOV.
I have never been involved in a fight in WWIIOL that involved 64, or even 32 planes in one area, let alone my FOV. I have been involved in fights that had way over 64 players (ground troops, vehicles and planes) in the area and FOV, so the game will have to drop some of them from my FE. I'm ok with that, as it's necessary. However, the issue comes from the bias on what stays on the screen. The absolute last class of objects that should disappear when you're flying are enemy planes! Especially the one 200 yards in front of you that you've got in your gunsight! The sad part (and the deal breaker for me) is that other players know this and USE it. Yep, I've latched onto the 6 of a plane and what does he do? Dive for the town. He knows as soon as he gets close to enough ground units (troops and/or tanks) he'll disappear from my screen and he also gets the chance to strafe any ground enemies he sees (because again, they'll still be on his screen).
My point is this. Given a 64 (or 32) player visible limit on your screen at any given time and you're flying a plane, the only time an enemy plane should not be drawn is if it the 65th (or 33rd) plane on the screen, not if it is the 65th (or 33rd) player on the screen. Under no circumstances (other than discos and if the plane hits an object) should the plane 200 yards in front of you disappear while you can still see friendly ground troops.
Yes, I've had planes disappear on me completely (icon and range circle lost as well) while still seeing friendly names on the ground.
In a plane, the bias should be this, in order of what should disappear first.
friendly troops
friendly vehicles (including boats)
enemy troops
friendly planes or enemy vehicles (can make an argument either way. you need to see friendly planes to help them, you need to see enemy vehicles to strafe or bomb them)
enemy planes
See what I'm talking about now?
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If you do find yourself in a fight over a contested town in WWIIOL, you will definitely see planes disappear from 100 yards in front of you. This is so well-known pilots use this trick to shake off enemies on their dead six. Get in trouble? Dive over busy city, pull a quick loop, voila! You are now on dead six of enemy as he exits town. Infuriating to say the least that bias of ground troops 2K below is prioritized over the enemy 100 yards in front of you.
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Nifty in frame 4 of bigweek when we hit that bomber stream I can count on film 55 dots. You ,Urchin and starbird are on my 2 o'clock, leitwolf and erlkonig are on my 11, Drago is at my lo 12 and a crap load off bombers with massive 88 puffs. I dont know if I have hit more then 64 but I know theres no 32 limit in AH. Ah has had some connection issues and ctds with the last update but they get fixed quickly and dont drag on indefinately. The SEA had some real problems connection wise but it has been fixed.
Some folks get a lag when in huge melees like this and there certainly is a some warping but I have experienced the same thing as you have with the vanishing enemy right at your 12 in wwiiol.
They may tout a 64 limit but it needs work. Especially if ground units are rendered before enemy air units.
I suspect that hard and fishu are going to say they have never seen or heard of this happening and that we dont know how to set our machines up etc.......
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I have em disappear too. I really hate it when I am gunning an AA. It isnt working correctly. Seems worse for flying than when I ground.
btw.. that review woulda been flawless
hardcase:D
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Err Keiran... so NOW you're saying that its the bugs that made you leave?
QUOTE: "I believe I will stick it out this time, at least for the summer while I have the time."
SO, I understand the above to mean that you NEVER intended continuing with WW2OL past the summer in any case.
You leave, and now suddenly its because of all these big bad bugs?
Still trying to ingratiate yourself I see ;)
Oh, and for Oedipus and Mighty1 ... I never intended to imply that ALL posters on the AH BBS were like Creamo and Braz. This board is replete with intelligent, interesting threads, occasionally salted with the ravings of idiots .........
like ANY other BBS around.
But bearing in mind that the subject of the appeal has just died from his disease, I found some of the responses to the thread to be not only in bad taste, but completely at odds with EVERYTHING I ever thought these boards were supposed to represent .....
a community .... irrespective of whether we play AH, WB, IL2 or whatever.
I gotta admit I'm upset over Carrot's passing ... flew with him MANY times in WB, AH and WW2OL. He was a guy that would always see the funny side of a situation, and I never knew him to badmouth ANYONE either in the air or on the boards.
He's dead, and Creamo and Braz are still walking around .........
There ain't no justice in the world :(
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I think the whole term 'vaporware' was first introduced with WW2OL release. :cool:
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No, Jekyll, not correct at all.
I went there trying to have an open mind. I flew for a while, ignoring things I saw. One thing that did improve to some extent was the community. As HC himself has alluded, the board itself on the original release was an intolerable, continuous flame war. This was the source of my first remark upon retrying it, and was one of the reasons I decided to give the game another go. New version, different atmosphere with the inhabitants.
As for the flight model, read the thread here. I still don't have a problem with that, I feel things are relative correct there- that is, the planes perform historically correct relative to one another. Whether or not they are the most accurate as compared to other sims is not even a concern to me.
The pilot quality there is terrible, period. Sorry if that offends you, but truth is truth.
The key things that pushed me out were:
1. The staleness of the game- it'd been a year, and basically the same weapons (in air) day in and day out.
2. The inequality of the relative air forces was ahistorically balanced too far to one side, making neither side particularly fun to play. It was far too easy to be an Axis flyer, far too difficult to be an Allied flyer. This was mainly due to...
3. A damage model that was incomplete or broken. Rifle caliber weapons on the Allied side did too little damage to one particular plane- the 109. Tests proved the 109 could absorb tons of ammo and continue to fly. You see, the way the damage model works is thus; if the first round to strike doesn't have the energy to penetrate a surface, it's as though the round never happened. So, if 1,000 rounds hits the same spot, one after another, it's as if nothing hit the plane. See? No cumulative damage. Couple superior performance with what is in effect a bullet-proof covering, and you have an unbalancing abomination running loose in the game.
4. Complete and total lack of hope that CRS would do anything about it any day soon. Once it became clear that A) CRS didn't think this was a problem and B) CRS didn't have a plane being designed (at that moment) that at least carried cannon (D.520 or Ms.406), I knew the game would continue to be a one-plane sim.
5. Throw in the FB issue. FBs, a key component to the game, were made destroyable by the air. Guess which plane does this better? The Stuka, of course, as it should be for pinpoint targets. The Blenheim could do it, but it required far more skill than the average pilot possessed and was far more vulnerable to enemy fighters. A Blen IV caught by enemy fighters, even if escorted, was dead. Even this isn't bad, or even ahistorical, except... FBs were a figment of the CRS imagination to begin with, a game concession. It occurs to me that if you are going to make a game concession you do so with both sides of the game in mind, not heavily weighted in favor of only one side. This type of decision, played over and over by CRS, is just poor game design.
So Jekyll... which of these issues did I mistake? Which is untrue? Which of these invalidates any private conversation that we had? Why is it not possible a person can change his mind based on these observations? And... did you not read any of the BBS there, and any of my discussion on these points? I was pretty blunt there, not trying to "ingratiate" myself as you accuse. It was a crappy situation and I said so, and as you might guess I was not very popular, particularly with the Pro-LW crowd (who BTW are very pleased with the current situation).
One thing hasn't changed with CRS, and perhaps I can paint it this way- they can't seem to grasp what good gameplay is. This is my opinion. If you have a game where the map is reset over and over, and the score is something like 15/2 in resets, it ought to be an indication something is a bit askew. You can't keep asking a group of people to take it up the butt over and over, and you certainly don't start making comments (as CRS has) that perhaps the losing side just didn't have smart enough players playing. That's a pretty insulting indictment, and one made more than once by Killer and Docdoom.
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1. Stuff is added. New Bofors and its tow this release. Some scout cars for both sides are almost ready, but the new release wont be held up for them. I suspect the same plane set, with additions, will still be in blitzkreig in years to come.
1040, the Germans have a real air advantage. I fly allies to try and balance it some. The 109 is superior to the hurri, hurri does nicely against the 110, Spits are stationed in england and are a long flight to the fight. Most won't take one. I would like the spit closer to the fight to overcome the 109s strengths. Much like Bob, spits vs 109, hurri vs 110 111 and stuka.
The titanium control surfaces of the 109 are fixed this release. AC damage can be subjective, but a bug was found.
FB destruction is always in flux. CRS changed the FB hardness this release also. I will have to look it up. The allied AF has improved in its ability to destroy FB with Blens, or sappers in truck.
The Dive bomber is well suited for doing this, the blen has to be worked at but for right now, the Stuka is the king of ground pounding. It has low numbers on the attrit list now. We can kill em enought to drive em from the air. We adapt.
Yep, FB are a gameplay creation. How much would complain about NOT having em:)
Gameplay is always in flux, and the community has driven things. Some want personal spawn limits. for example. If someone had done this before perhaps gameplay would be a no brainer. Post some ideas how to improve it and I will post em on the forum.
Blitzkrieg itself was askewed. Perhaps that is why the French surrendered early on. Our French have won. Interesting you use an example of a game perhaps bf42, with 15/2 scores and resets every 5 mins to compare and fault the gameplay for ww2ol. I believe that to be apples and oranges. I dont think any 'game' out there can be held out as an example to fix ww2ol's gameplay. Different birds. Apples and Oranges.
I hope this didnt come off as a Fanbois rant:D It was not my intent.
The Rats are going to make a small in game memorial to Carrot and retire his ID. I want to thank you guys who posted about carrot. Life should supersede a game.
hardcase
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Gameplay is always in flux,
This quest for parity is what I find to be the main reason I most likely will never enjoy wwiiol.
I feel quite the opposite then kieran. I certainly dont expect a scripted german victory every reset. But the allies (in the quest for gameplay) already have an advantage beyond simple vehicle modifications.
303s were crap kieran read Faminz interview with alan peart
9. I would like his experiences concerning armament, the 20 Hispanos and the .303 mgs. Which did he prefer?
A: .303's were useless really when armour protection was installed for pilots. The bullets would not penetrate the armour plate. On one occasion I fired from astern at an ME 109 using only machine guns (my cannons had jammed), and I could see the bullets ricocheting off. I could only claim him as damaged. The cannons on the other hand did great damage when they hit, but were limited in ammunition supply. Also initially in North Africa stoppages were common causing much frustration. This problem was duly overcome and the Hispano Suiza cannon became an effective and reliable weapon. Later two .5's replaced the four .303's in the UK, and I think that this was an improvement.
I can fill this tread up with numerous stories about 303 armed planes struggling to get kills. Emptying all their 303s into a ju88 etc....
But the rats modelled an e-4 with mgff/m for the battle of france. Play il2 rarely do you see control surface shot off by planes. Eng damage and pks are far more real then shooting off control surfaces.
On one occasion during the invasion of France in the summer of 1940, Wick and three other Messerschmitt pilots found themselves bounced by 30 French Curtiss Hawk 75-fighters. In the following battle, the Germans succeeded in turning the table. Five Curtiss Hawks were shot down, four of them falling prey to the guns of Wick's Bf 109
On the ground the french tanks where 1 man had to load target and fire isnt accounted for. so french tanks have an unrealistic advantage here. When I played a while back I remember my 88 having to hit a char countless time to kill him.
Theres all sorts of points where the rats modeled something wrong here so they over compensate here to make a greater level of parity.
The mobility of the german ground forces are off set by town/flag capture etc.......
The ju-86 was a bomber used in Bof so was the do 17. They model the wrong variants, dont model others and over compensate here and there. Theres nothing historical or immersive in the way wwiiol is played.
When I talk about gameplay this is what I am talking about.
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I don't want absolute parity, that would be silly. What I want is something that is historic. If you can roll a tank up to a real 109 and unload your turret mg at 50 meters into the aileron, then have the pilot lift that bird off as if nothing happened, I would be absolutely silent. Unload 4 more clips while you're at it- that is what the testers did. I don't doubt your anecdote about seeing SOME bullets ricochet, but I seriously doubt they ALL did. There is a reason later warbirds carried more and more cannons after all.
As for the FB, that has been addressed in the latest version about to come out, I know, by allowing the Blens to eject their payloads at a diving angle. This is not historic and may not be the best solution, but I can't think of a better one, either.
The FB issue is a tough nut because they are a game-concession contrivance put in place to shorten the distances to fights. That is a good idea, unless one side is unduly advantaged in the process. In the past this was so, mainly because of the advantages conferred by a pinpoint divebomber such as the Stuka (and the lack of an historical Allied equivalent). Making the FBs killable by sappers only would be fair, but remove a fair reason for bombers in the game. I think the real answer lies in increasing the actual usable view distance so that FBs could be spotted from the air at altitudes that would allow Blenheims and Heinkels to see them and line up bombing runs. Right now it is guesswork, because above 1-2K FBs are invisible on most rigs. The suggestion I forwarded (along with Turo and a few others) was to make FBs larger- after all, they are supposed to replicate an encamped army. Make it so it would take multiple bombers to kill them and you don't hurt the Stukas at all, but you give the level bombers something to carpet bomb at an altitude that is more realistic. This would have the added effect of raising the altitude of the fights to more historic levels. See, win/win for everyone involved.
I am not making comparisons to BF1942 here, don't confuse this line of discussion, please.
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FB can now be killed by sappers. We load up a bunch and go a basing:) The question being looked a lot is..how much damage does it take to kill a FB. I think that value is being lowered or has been. Killer has tought about making it capturable. I think that might be fun and worth a try. He also wantsto have a spawn point that is captured in a multipul spawn point town, to be able to spawn enemy infantry. A bug one night lead to the best fight I have been in ever. Germans could spawn in a capped point across the river from the other. The blens can kill them now, I dont know if one plane load can do it. Bigger FB bases, or at least more than the tank or the inf points to bomb, would be welcomed I would think. That is a big rewrite for the graphic guys. It would tie into making em capable. They would have to be easier to take than a city point, or we would jsut be having another city pop up between cities.
The pilot dumping bombs..not sure it means they go armed or not. That 40% angle, I believe the rats got some old info from ww2. I dont know for certain.
Again, the 109 titanium surfaces are fixed. Some extended gameing will tell.
I would like graphical damage as much as anyone. With the new dx8.1 engine perhaps it can show up. Losing a wing is stil there just not shown.
hardcase
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The jettisonable bombs just have to go live- why else take the time to code it in?
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My only thought would be to dump the weight. I havent flown one in beta, but will do so tonight and see for myself.
hardcase
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Please god, let this thread burn in nuclear hellfire.
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Some screenshots of the new release.
http://www5.playnet.com/bv/wwiiol/dg_message.jsp?group_id=8821&parent_id=1616655
hardcase
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Please god, let hardcase find a friend.
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LOL!:cool:
hardcase
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Toilet Break !
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There I am, at Checksix, waiting for the party....
Hello?
Hello?
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Don't make me laught ... quest for parity in WWII ol ?
If you were having a minimal knowledge about french hardware of this time you won't say that .
It was badly used IRL not completly rotten like it appear in the game.
And how will you have paying subscriber for a planned loosing side it's idiot no ?
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On the ground the french tanks where 1 man had to load target and fire isnt accounted for. so french tanks have an unrealistic advantage here.
use your luger and kill the driver ...
or use your 109 to straffe it to death...
I'm a bit upset cause I tried again this WE ...
My goal when I play WWIIol as a french man is to show that what happened in real in 1940 was no due of lack of courage/hardware of french troop but more because of the incapacity of the HQ.
But how can I do that in WWIIol as all is planed to make my effort fail ?
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Want a refund, talk to Strategy First. They are the publishers.
Publishers make their money from the box, CRS from the subscriptions. Pushing it out the door, hurt CRS much more than Strategy First.
hardcase
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Oed as you can see that's old news.
Would be nice to see some newer reports if you can find one.
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Originally posted by straffo
My goal when I play WWIIol as a french man is to show that what happened in real in 1940 was no due of lack of courage/hardware of french troop but more because of the incapacity of the HQ.
But how can I do that in WWIIol as all is planed to make my effort fail ?
Straffo, join the Vichy French:)
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please make it stop
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What would you have them do?Return the money?Why should they be the first company to have done so, other than that online company that paid 15k to some charity? Again, Strategy First got the money and gave about 5 bucks a box to CRS. That five bucks is a guess, and not a lie. Publishers get the lions share of the profit.
Wonder how much bitterness toward CRS is in the posts against the sim?
hardcase
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Straffo, join the Vichy French:)
rotfl :D
It's not likely to happen ;)
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Originally posted by Oedipus
Sick 'em Hardcase and fishu! Yet more unbelievers
http://boards.ea.com/messages?14@29.jZOya4c1tjf.16@.ef888aa
http://boards.ea.com/messages?14@29.jZOya4c1tjf.16@.ef8866b
That ought to keep em busy for a while. :)
Hehe, from one of those threads:
The funniest thing about WW2OL is that the players there still believe that this mythical thing known as "the next patch" will fix all the problems with WW2OL, bring back the entire player base, and put the game on the path to success. =)
[/i]
:D
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Mightt be fun, but EA games? Don't think there is a true simmer in the bunch.
hardcase
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That ought to keep em busy for a while.
Hard,
hes talking about their messageboard not the game...........:)
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Bashing ww2ol is the fun thing. Everyone wants to think they are in the know.
OTW down. Bashers hope it dies. If it doesn't one of us is wrong.
hardcase
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"True simmer"....stinks of "Elitism", Hardcase...
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I know he is talking about the posts about the sim. Why waste my time at EA. I played the Sims for a while but I didnt find it a really good simulation.
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You and I both know that Blayre is the same Blair that got his griefing bellybutton banned. He will never be let back in btw. Still at it. It seems he likes to play it, rag on it, then buy another copy? Making money for Strategy First. As long as it costs him money is fine with me.
hardcase
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I've already gone in there. Once I saw it was blair. Not a problem.
Spouting gameplay..saying someone cant find a fight?..I know you can find fights quite easily. So..was it the sim or the player?
BTW the thread had died. I think you resurrected it
hardcase
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My posting here seems to be a problem for you. I think someone might take away the easy rags some players like to use, when a lot of times it is just the player that wasn't quite up to the task.
Enought machine, right setup, the want to play a sim and not a game, the ability to type text online can usually lead to an enjoyable simming experience.
hardcase
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Where am I trying to save you? Sim goes on without your playing. Thanks for pointing me to blair.
hardcase
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:D
(ok I admit it I'm going for 500)
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Originally posted by hardcase
I've already gone in there. Once I saw it was blair. Not a problem.
hardcase
Someone get this blair fellow in here now! If thats what it takes!
I know, careful whatcha wish for...
HC, I dont know if you realize this or not, but you are/will be directly responsible for lots of lost $ at CRS. You've fragged the Lt. and don't even know it. You've single handedly brought every minor flaw of WWIIO out in the open to be repeatedly brought to the glaring spot light.
I personally would've probably tried it again someday, but having been reminded of the "big rip off", I more than likely won't. Especially if your the run of the mill Col. over there.
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For the record, a few of us have been waiting at Checksix. After a few posts, it's been notably quiet. I'm up for a civil discussion over there, so what gives?
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wwiiol simulates nothing.
wrong equipment
missing equipment
Nothing resembling "Blitzkreig"
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I just saw Ode's post about his p600 gaming machine. Since you dont like ww2ol and find it not playing well,how about posting your system specs. Like Ode could expect to do more than infantry with with that system and early not even that very well. Wonder what he was running a year ago when he played it. Sheesh.
hardcase
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Wotan bring it over to checksix. Sure, stuff is missing. Which vehciles are not correct for that time period? Allies are getting a 40mm Bofors gun with its hauler. Scout vehicles are almost done, they wont hold up the new release to finish em.
hardcase
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hardcase, do you sell dictionaries by any chance?
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Ode, was that your machine at launch also? Those minimums were overly optomistic. My guess is that you never got to play at all. Your machine, even with the dx8.1 stuff coming won't run much more than infantry. My opinion,for you,it was in deed a turd.
I wish you could play it on mine. It might acutally be fun for you.
hardcase
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Originally posted by hardcase
Those minimums were overly optomistic. hardcase
Substitute.....Deceptive and you would be accurate.
Like I said, I still have a sub and still play it occassionally, but I would not say that CRS were innocent in this. Nor are they the devil incarnate.
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The box was printed in March. Deceptive? Why would a producer dileberatly go about destroying good will from players..when the producer DOESN'T get the most from a publishing of their work. They make money off of the subscriptions they sell. Who was hurt more by the release, who gain the most.. the producer..or the publisher?
hardcase
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Cobra, look for a beta of the new version on a test server. Suppose to be up for Thursday night.
hardcase
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Tardcase wrote:
The box was printed in March. Deceptive?
Ok if not Deceptive how about Incompetent?
Ya know it really doesn't matter when they wrote it the fact is that it was wrong!
Who do I blame? Every F'cking one of them!
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Regardless, the box is still old news. Your living 18 months in the past.
How about posting your system specs.. Ode has a p600 and didnt enjoy ww2ol. No duh.
hardcase
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The game itself is beyond 18 months in the past.
It still hasn't gotten to box specs, 18 months later.
Regardless of what they have on the box, and what was on the CD, they weren't even close to having a remotely completed program.
Nevermind the lack of vehicles and equipment.
The program core itself wasn't even close to completion/optimised when it was release... THAT's the most depressing point of it all.
And it STILL ain't close to completed.
-SW
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(http://D:\Documents and Settings\Chris Karogiannis\My Documents\silly stuff and rockers\didyouthink.jpg)
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Just because it's old doesn't make it invalid!
My specs?
P4 1.7
1 gig ram
128meg Ti4600 video
The game still blows!
Now I bet your next comment is going to be somthing like "Well you just aren't smart enough to tweak you machine" or my favorite "Well mine works".
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I find it enjoyabe. That machine would have run it fine.
Tell me the FPS you got and I will tell you if it is your machine.
hardcase
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Quote:"My posting here seems to be a problem for you."
On the ww2ol bbs, you need to be a paying member to post. Sad we can't go there and praise Aces High. :eek:
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I wish there was one open forum, well moderated, for non players too.
hardcase
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66053
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Err comon, only a few more guys!
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Soo... does it still suck?
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Yeah it sucks the data right off your harddrive!:p
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Cripes, lets make it five hundred.
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500...
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500 huh?
Brings a few quotes to mind:
"Never in the field of software conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." Winston Churchrat
"Don't be a fool and die for your toejamty software. Let the other sonofasqueak die for his." Gen. George Ratton
"If you treat end users right they will treat you right - ninety percent of the time."
Franklin D. Ratsevelt
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502 in only lets see 3 weeks. Wow. Forum is to the point where it most topics dissapear within a few hours.