Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Bravo80 on September 21, 2010, 09:54:37 AM
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Hello all, I've had a Microsoft Force Feedback 2 stick for years. I've tried others, but like the feel of my old Sidewinder. I'm on my second one. Unfortunately it has become worn from usage. The centering function is wearing out. Microsoft no longer supports the stick because it is no longer being manufactured. Is anyone aware of a repair service for this stick. Thanks.
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Can you be a lot more specific regarding the symptoms. Fastest way to suggest a solution is to diagnose precisely the problem.
Do you mean the stick is a lot more sloppy than it was around the centre? Under what circumstances does this happen? Did the change happen suddenly or has slowly gotten that way? Do you still own the first Sidewinder too?
Regards, nrshida.
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Prior to this weekend, while in flight, the stick would go back to center very stiffly. It felt like something got loose in a hard turn, now there is a looseness feel while at center position and it does not go back to center as stiffly.
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There's a gearing system between the stick base and the electric motors that provide the FF & centring functionality. Based on what you've said, it could be a mechanical failure in one of those sets of components (two separate channels, basically).
If you're reasonably handy or can find someone reasonably handy, I'd suggest removing the bottom cover and the main circuit board, and gently moving the stick around. Anything amiss should be easily spotted. Especially look for little broken pieces (might be stuck to the grease too!) or something which has become displaced. If you have your other Sidewinder around then there's your supply of spare parts.
The older Sidewinder I have is very easy to take apart (compared with some modern products). Be aware that there may be one or more screws under the little black cylindrical rubber feet. They have a sticky back and can be pried off carefully and reused later. If the lower case doesn't easily separate then you missed one. On mine all the screws were the same length (thus simplifying reassembly). The circuit board should have unique connectors for each wiring bundle. Be extremely careful not to damage the rectangular black panel on the top side of the circuit board, the bit that sits directly under the stick itself.
If you do find something and don't know how to proceed, post some photos and I will try to help you as best I can.
Good luck!
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Thank you, I will attempt to do what you said.
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If you can wait a few days Bravo, I'm expecting a Sidewinder FF2 through the post any day now. I'd be happy to make a step by step disassembly / reassembly guide for you, with pictures. If it would help you buddy. I've got to tear it down anyway.
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I suspect this isn't relevant but just in case... Did the problem suddenly show up in flight or did you notice the change after the last AH patch? Previous versions had a bug with MSFF initialization so that all forces were set to maximum independent of what you had the set in the AH menu. You had to disable FF then re-enable it to get your chosen settings. If you didn't do this the stick was very stiff. The latest patch fixed this bug and the stick starts with the menu force strengths properly. Try setting these to 100% to see if the centering stiffness comes back in flight.
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I wrote up a tension mod for the SideWinder 3D in May of 2000 (back in the Elvene days). If I recall correctly, the disassembly on the FF stick was exactly the same up until you began to disassemble the actual internal mechanism, except that it didn't have a mode switch to worry about. Since I still have the write up, I thought I'd post the first section describing disassembly for you. If it helps you out, great. If not, then... sorry.
<S>
Grue
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Disclaimer - As always, working with electronics requires static safe handling.
Note – for the purpose of this procedure, the front of the joystick is considered to be the direction you would push the stick directly away from you (pitch down) if the joystick were placed naturally on the desk in front of you in use. Even when holding the unit upside down and “backwards” for disassembly, all references to left, right, forward, back, top and bottom refer to the joystick as if it were sitting on the desk in it’s natural position, unless specifically referenced to you instead.
Step 1: examine your joystick. The procedure I describe was used on joysticks marked on the bottom with:
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Microsoft ® Sidewinder ™ 3D Pro
Part No. 63545
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Proceed cautiously in any event, but if you have a different part number use extreme caution. Note the position of the mode selector switch on the front bottom of the joystick so that you can put it back in the same mode when done. (edit-> the mode switch does not apply to the FF)
Step 2: Disconnect the joystick from the computer. Place the joystick upside down in your lap, stick portion between your thighs, with the base resting comfortably in your lap. Orient so that forward on the joystick is toward your body.
Step 3. Locate the first hidden screw under the label on the bottom of the joystick. Press in on the label on the “tion” portion of the word Corporation under the word SideWinder, and you will feel a hole behind the label. Using the very small flathead screwdriver or an exacto knife break/cut open the label at that point so that the head of the screw is visible.
Step 4. Locate the other 2 hidden screws on the bottom of the joystick. Carefully pry up (damaging as little as possible) and remove the two rubber feet at the front corners of the joystick, and place them to the side.
Step 5. You should now be able to see 7 screws in the base of the joystick. Using the #1 Phillips, remove them.
Step 6. Center the mode selector switch exactly between the one and two dot settings. Using both hands (thumbs positioned each side of selector switch) gently lift the plastic base of the joystick up and away from you, and it should freely detach from the rest of the joystick. Note, from this point forward static safe precautions should be observed.
Step 7. (The rest describes how to mod the stick to remove the center slack, which is non-applicable to the FF stick)
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It'll be your gears or your motors if theres just some play at the centre point it will be your gear they are made of plastic I'm wondering if you could get metal ones in there nrshida?
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What 715 said is of course right, always check the simple things first. I went from first to third gear there because Bravo said it happened suddenly in a tight turn. Ghastly that was very helpful of you :salute
Are you also having trouble with your gears Pervert? You've probably got the most miles on a Sidewinder on this planet I think, with the possible exception of Batfinkv.
I'm wondering just how many people own or are snapping up old Sidewinders now? Judging from the prices on eBay demand is going up! I will have a look at options when mine arrives. If this is a weak point then it might be worthwhile to do some work on an improvement kit.
I'm going back to sit on the doorstep now & wait for the postman :furious
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I've had my sidewinder longer than batty but his hands are more sweaty than mine :D so he has the edge :lol
Regards an improvement kit or refurb kit, the things I'd like to change about it would be the buttons on base (although I believe they are intentionaly harder to press than the trigger to stop your resting hand from accidentialy pressing them) would like changed to an easier pressed button for my flaps.
A replacement set of motors and or gears poss metal and wider gears.
I don't rate any rudders on twisty sticks the sidewinder is no exception you might well show the post of how Kaz locked his twizzty on his sidewinder.
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I locked the twist on Logitec FF which improved it 100%
It like a new joystick now.
The twist action was tensioned by a very light spring and input was sensed by a strange pickup on a pivot.
Two dots of super glue on twist shaft stopped twist action.
Obviously I have pedals some be CH ones.
I have a set of saitek pedals and X52 setup going spare.
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That would be great nrshida. I did examine a step by step post which I found on the forem but it was for the old sidewinder, not the ff2. I'm very leary about opening this thing up as I have no experience in electronics, any help you guys give is greatly appreciated. I've tried several other sticks but eventually end up sending them back. Thanks
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No problem Bravo, you'll have the instructions with pictures 24 hours after I get mine delivered + 1 hour of kicking the postman for taking so long.
Don't be afraid to disassemble. I'll take you through it step by step. The electronics just sits on one board which you should be able to ignore. There's just a few precautions to prevent further damage. If you have a handy friend or relative get them to help you too. Always a learning experience these things, that's the good part!
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Ok Bravo, I have it, hold the phone...
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OK Bravo,
For you and whoever else needs it:
Remembering what everyone else said, I'm trusting you've looked for all the simple stuff first, i.e. in software, tried alternate USB ports, recallibrated in both Windows and AH and so forth.
I have now received my Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 Joystick. Mine is part number X08-58736. If your number differs don't worry. If the exterior is similar there should be little or no difference. I have dismantled it and made some photos for you as promised.
From what you reported I suggested it might be a mechanical problem. This we can certainly check. You should have no trouble dismantling it enough to check for such damage. It really is very a simple process. Don't panic!
I imagine I am obliged to say something like I am not liable for any injury and it's at your own risk blah blah blah. But I'm confident you will survive!
It's probably easier to work with the stick inverted on your lap, with the handle hanging down between your legs.
Firstly, on the underside of the stick's base, there are three very obvious screws nearer to the middle. These potentially present the only problem. They are not anti-tamper screws or Torq-sets or anything weird like that, they are modified Phillips screws to make them 'tamper discouraging' shall we say.
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2892/dsc07564x.jpg)
I found that a Tamiya Philips #2 screwdriver fitted perfectly. Any Phillips screwdriver OF THE RIGHT SIZE will fit too, do not be tempted to make do with an incorrectly fitting screwdriver, because if you damage these screw heads it is game over. If you put the driver in the screw and it is a positive fit and doesn't wobble etc, then you've probably found the correct driver.
The screw heads are of a modified pattern to make it harder to unscrew them. The trick is to use much more downwards pressure onto the screw than turning pressure. I found they were not very tight, once they clicked loose they were easily removed. Set these 3 screws aside safely.
Next you must pry off the 8 rubber disk feet that are found near the edge of the baseplate. They are self adhesive. If you get something reasonably sharp that you can force completely under the edge, you can simply lever them off. Once you've done one you'll understand it. Lay these carefully aside, adhesive side up and try not to touch that surface. They can simply be reattached afterwards.
Under each rubber foot is a normal Phillips screw. Remove each one and set them aside. These screws are all exactly the same length, no need to make note of where they came from.
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8910/dsc07544n.jpg)
Once this is done, the bottom plate easily comes away. Revealing a gimbal, two circuit boards and two electric motors with a small black gearset.
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4341/dsc07545r.jpg)
The dark green circuit board with CAUTION and PRIMARY and SECONDARY printed on it is the power circuit and should be loose. If you jiggle the black power lead socket it should come out. Grip the circuit board by the edges and just fold it out of the way. It's unlikely, but there is a tiny possibility that there is some residual charge in the capacitors (the silver cans with the black sleeves on them). It's generally good practice to avoid touching the electrical parts if possible, but don't get stressed over it, I gave it a proper wrangling with no ill-effects (although I did seem to lose an hour today and now my hair is all sticking up).
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4139/dsc07547.jpg)
Lifting this circuit out of the way will let you look at one of the gearsets. Start here looking for damage: gnarled or missing teeth, foreign objects, something loose etc. The gears should turn the motors smoothly when you move the stick. There should be no clunking noises or binding etc.
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3778/dsc07548w.jpg)
If this gearset is good, remove the two screws which hold the light green circuit in place. They are at either end of the 'Microsoft' text. Lift the circuit board as needed so you can inspect the gears, handling it as carefully as possible. Take extra care not to stress the wires that go into the tiny plugs. If you like you can unplug these, grip the plugs on the plastic edge with some pliers with serrated jaws (otherwise they'll just slip off) and pull gently. On no account try to unplug them by pulling on the wires. Each connector is unique, you cannot reconnect them wrongly.
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3531/dsc07549.jpg)
This gear set looks like this:-
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/989/dsc07553s.jpg)
Again look for the same damage, move your stick around and inspect the gearset.
If you find no problem here then you must inspect the gimbal. This is the part in the centre of the stick which translates your sticks movement into the two channels used for Ailerons and Elevators in game (the rudder pot is in the handle of the stick and has no FF).
The gimbal looks complex but it's really not, just check everything moves properly with no binding (sticking) or clunking. Check that the wear is reasonable with nothing slopping around.
If that's all alright you need to look at your motors. Move the stick and listen to the cans for odd noises. It is normal for it to feel a little notchey (softly notchey), it is just the coils moving past the magnets. Give the motors a sniff (bear with me here, lol) if one of them smells burnt this is significant.
I went a little further with my disassembly than you probably should and completely removed the gimbal from the stick's housing. Hopefully these pictures help you look for anything wrong. This is basically how one gear and motor set are attached to the end of your stick:
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8765/dsc07554p.jpg)
(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/5161/dsc07555u.jpg)
If you do find something broken or loose, please make a picture and upload it and I should be able to give you a reasonable solution, within reason. This might include a suggestion to replace parts!
If everything checks out OK then it is not a mechanical problem. That's also useful information. You probably then have a worn out potentiometer, a fault in the digital circuit or a problem with one of the motors that you can't see etc.
That probably leaves you with limitted options to be honest, since you said you're not so good with electronics. Electronic diagnostics is a bit more involved than the mechanical side. As I mentioned earlier if you still have your other broken stick you can always substitute parts block for block, without too much understanding of what they do. As I say, follow the instructions for disassembly first and let's see what you find.
Here I'd love to say reassembly is the reversal of disassembly, as I always read in manuals ha ha. It's actually pretty true, but there are a few provisos. When putting all the boards back in place, carefully reroute the wires so they can't get snagged in the gears etc. There are little tabs provided in the case.
(http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/6769/dsc07560c.jpg)
When refitting these kind of self-tapping screws back into plastic, I find a good trick is to position the screws vertically, turn the screwdriver slowly backwards until you hear a click, then turn the screws carefully in (clockwise). Do not over tighten them. I think they need about two and a half full turns of the screwdriver each but it will be pretty obvious when they've had enough. Just a little more than finger tight is sufficient.
The final picture shows it reassembled plus the tools I used. I tested it straight after and it worked fine.
(http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/1693/dsc07566n.jpg)
I hope you can follow the guide. It does look very complicated but it's just long winded, I've tried to cover everything and assumed you didn't know anything.
Hope you find something that is easily fixed, good luck!
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Fantastic stuff nrshida thank you :aok
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OK, I'm holding.
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No need to hold now Bravo, there's the instructions above for you, go for your life!
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Thank you very much for your time and effort, it was very kind of you. I'd like to attempt to do something this weekend if I have time.
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You are welcome.
Pervert I thought carefully about upgrading the gears and I think it's not feasible. Replacing one or more of those gears with brass might save wear on the teeth but would probable pass the stress along the line to the mounting plate etc. and it's really not up to that. You'd probably have to end up re-engineering the whole unit. Have you inspected your gear sets, it's certainly worth cleaning and applying new grease. Is there any backlash in your teeth?
What surprised me more was the potentiometers. I was under the impression that the FF2 retained optical tracking for the main axes at least, but it isn't so. Pots throughout. I'm surprised you've got such a long service out of them. The FF2 is night and day different in design & construction to the older Game Port version.
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You are welcome.
Pervert I thought carefully about upgrading the gears and I think it's not feasible. Replacing one or more of those gears with brass might save wear on the teeth but would probable pass the stress along the line to the mounting plate etc. and it's really not up to that. You'd probably have to end up re-engineering the whole unit. Have you inspected your gear sets, it's certainly worth cleaning and applying new grease. Is there any backlash in your teeth?
What surprised me more was the potentiometers. I was under the impression that the FF2 retained optical tracking for the main axes at least, but it isn't so. Pots throughout. I'm surprised you've got such a long service out of them. The FF2 is night and day different in design & construction to the older Game Port version.
Regards the gears would it not be the same force along the drive train anyway? Was pretty sure its optical tracking? Will have to crack mine open soon one of the hat microswitches is starting to stick.
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Yeah I was as surprised as you. The pots, or the things that look very like pots that are pot-shaped and have three wires coming out of them like pots have (I haven't dissected one of those yet as I'm using it) are on the opposite side to the gear sets. The whole design and construction is in stark contrast to the optical sensor-based previous version. It is possible that there's two versions of the FF2, but I thought the red switch version was just a cosmetic change. Please do upload some photos when you open yours up.
Yes it would Perv, but it's not so much the overall force that worries me. These plastic gears have a fair bit of spring or give in them. I think you can even feel it when the stick is doing guns effects for example. You'd lose that quality with brass gears. It might work out well, but I imagine you'd then need a thicker mounting plate, then have to re enforce the plastic mountings for them too etc. etc. Probably end up doing what the Thrustmaster Cougar modders do, but I wouldn't choose the FF2 design as a base for something like that. I'd rather use the original Sidewinder instead (thinking, thinking).
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Are they stepper motors in FF stick?
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No Zack, in the Sidewinder they look like Mabuchi RS-540s or something very similar.
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motors constanly on?
If you stop a motor will it not burn out?
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I doubt they could be pots and maintain that level of accuracy with heavy use, CH are high quality and use pots and they even they seem to encounter problems after a few years use. My stick still tracks smoothly and evenly and centres perfectly. :headscratch:
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From what he's describing he's got the same pots in that that I have in the Sidewinder Prec 2 USB (non FFB)
And yes they are pots, just very very good ones.
Possibly digital pots if such a thing exists.
True optical hasn't been made since the original 3dpro
(http://www.ruralgeek.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=797&g2_serialNumber=2)
Should look like the small black pot on the left. Not the 2 big ones.
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Zack, the whole thing seems to behave essentially like two great big R/C servos. The motors are loaded as necessary when it meets resistance or needs to be shaken etc. It even sounds like a servo when the power is barely on the motors.
I didn't really dissect or inspect the 'things that look like pots' too closely because I just wanted to help Bravo quickly and I'm now using the stick so I didn't want to wreck it. I just pulled them out of their mounts, had a little cry when I realised that they probably were pots and then put it back together. I think you could be right Ghosth, small but very high quality, hence the longevity. They do look like the leftmost item your photo. I'm as confused and disillusioned as you are Pervert! :headscratch:
The optical sensor on the previous version was a masterpiece of design and engineering. Looks like Perrine had the right idea. If you're listening how did you get on bud?
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Great Post guys. In the same area, my MS FF 2 Stick has a plastic trigger. On the back side of the trigger is a little molded nub that makes contact with an inner button which fires my guns. Unfortunately that little plastic nub has worn down to the point that it really doesn't depress the inner button anymore. I've searched high and low for a replacement trigger, but to no avail. Anyone have any thoughts on how to repair the trigger or rebuild that plastic nub? My stick works just great except for the worn trigger.
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glue gun?
semp
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I'd use some of that quick cure epoxy that the modelers use. Check out the hobby shops for a good one for plastic. Mix it, apply it, let it set, and file it down to the right size and shape. Good luck!
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Great Post guys. In the same area, my MS FF 2 Stick has a plastic trigger. On the back side of the trigger is a little molded nub that makes contact with an inner button which fires my guns. Unfortunately that little plastic nub has worn down to the point that it really doesn't depress the inner button anymore. I've searched high and low for a replacement trigger, but to no avail. Anyone have any thoughts on how to repair the trigger or rebuild that plastic nub? My stick works just great except for the worn trigger.
PM nrshida ask nicely he may have a dismantled sidewinder parts sitting around. :salute
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You missed out. I had one that was like new that I sold.
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Great Post guys. In the same area, my MS FF 2 Stick has a plastic trigger...
Does your trigger look like this Razzor?:-
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/PC030117.jpg)
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/PC030116.jpg)
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Bump. Can anyone that knows 'Razzor 479th' give him a nudge, he can have this trigger if he PMs me his postal address. It's surplus to my requirements and like new.
Any Pigs on the Wing reading this? Pass on the message please.
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will do nishida thanks.
semp
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Bump. Can anyone that knows 'Razzor 479th' give him a nudge, he can have this trigger if he PMs me his postal address. It's surplus to my requirements and like new.
Any Pigs on the Wing reading this? Pass on the message please.
Hey, that's it exactly, I'll send the PM now. Thanks much!!!!!!!!!!! :banana: :x :rock
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Is there a site where I can order replacement buttons for the FFB2? My trigger has been inop for quite a while (heavier duty button inside) and Im just about out of spare scavenged buttons (aside from the trigger button) from other older MS joysticks.
Several years ago a friend sent me a link to such a site, unfortunately it has been long since lost.
Thanks in advance,
Nish
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Is there a site where I can order replacement buttons for the FFB2? My trigger has been inop for quite a while (heavier duty button inside) and Im just about out of spare scavenged buttons (aside from the trigger button) from other older MS joysticks.
Several years ago a friend sent me a link to such a site, unfortunately it has been long since lost.
Thanks in advance,
Nish
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280432.0.html
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Is there a site where I can order replacement buttons for the FFB2? My trigger has been inop for quite a while (heavier duty button inside) and Im just about out of spare scavenged buttons (aside from the trigger button) from other older MS joysticks.
Several years ago a friend sent me a link to such a site, unfortunately it has been long since lost.
Thanks in advance,
Nish
Nish, get ahold of me I have a lightly used FFB1 in great shape I dont use if your interested. I also have 18 Precision Pro 1's the stick I use. (didnt want to ever run out lol)
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I am having to do all my hat switches again :cry this thread was so good I had to thank shida again for it :)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280432.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280432.0.html)
Another old thread with links to the replacement switch part numbers as well
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I am having to do all my hat switches again :cry this thread was so good I had to thank shida again for it :)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280432.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280432.0.html)
Another old thread with links to the replacement switch part numbers as well
No worries mate, I'm just sorry I don't have another circuit to send you. Never did hear if Razzor 479th received the trigger I sent to him. :frown:
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No worries mate, I'm just sorry I don't have another circuit to send you. Never did hear if Razzor 479th received the trigger I sent to him. :frown:
I might be mad but I think the switches on this one are a different setup, the hat switch is a pole pushed through 4 buttons surrounding it, the pole has worn out but I managed to save it by putting a very fine metal sleeve around it. It needs done I have lost nearly all my views, I think if I had a decent soldering iron it wouldn't be such a pain.
(http://images.esellerpro.com/41/W/377/8/lrgscale71420_SG100iu.jpg)
Sadly I am using this unwieldy monster its a pita to use :cry
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I might be mad but I think the switches on this one are a different setup, the hat switch is a pole pushed through 4 buttons surrounding it, the pole has worn out but I managed to save it by putting a very fine metal sleeve around it. It needs done I have lost nearly all my views
Yeah that's it. That's the standard approach to the design. Should make a hall effect replacement kit. I bet I could become rich beyond the dreams of average :banana:
Big old industrial iron is that one. You can sometimes get a small one quite cheap. Next time you're in Amsterdam Perv, bring it with you. We can have a curry while I fix it for you :joystick:
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Oh no, the images are broken!! Might they be able to be reuploaded please?
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That is a problem with old threads where the images were not stored on our server to begin with. There is no way to recover them as they were never here to be recovered.
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which images? i see a bunch of them.
semp
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which images? i see a bunch of them.
semp
This post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,297141.msg3802910.html#msg3802910) used to have pictures in it, for example. The links were removed due to 404 (not found) errors.
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Hello, unfortunately I don't have the images either. I uploaded them to ImageShack and since they were only needed here didn't keep copies for myself. I've contacted ImageShack to ask if they can be recovered. Also the joystick featured in the pictures doesn't exist either as I dismantled it for the core of my new joystick project. So I'm afraid I can't redo the tutorial.
Anyone else still using these old things? Is the Sidewinder FF2 even supported by the latest versions of Windows?
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Images restored thanks to the kindly and very professional people at ImageShack (especially since I only use the free service and uploaded these in 2010). Will download them for safety in case they pop off again. MS Sidewinders forever! :banana: :old: :bolt:
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Hi guys,
I'm currently overhauling a > 10 years old MS FFB2 joystick.
Thanks to this topic, which summs up all the required part numbers, I now have all the tactile switches ready to be soldered in.
That is, all but one part, but maybe because that is not really a switch.
The circle on the picture is the rudder control in the joystick's stick, and is an upside down potmeter.
Does anyone have a part number of that potmeter, or the specs of the original potmeter and the address where to buy it??
That would be great!
I can no longer fly "straight" and to repair that, was the main reason for this project.
Thanks in advance!
PS. The dent in the red wire in the picture is how I found it... The wire itself is not broken only the insulation is flattened because of sloppy assembly in the factory. :angry:
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Images restored thanks to the kindly and very professional people at ImageShack (especially since I only use the free service and uploaded these in 2010). Will download them for safety in case they pop off again. MS Sidewinders forever! :banana: :old: :bolt:
Hi, do you still have those pictures to something like Imgur? Your original post has them missing again, and I could really use them. :)