Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Pyro on August 13, 2001, 01:12:00 PM
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Everybody's gung-ho for the Europe terrain, but what about the planeset? Any suggestions to mate up with that? I'm looking to change it tomorrow.
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SpitV, SpitIX, P51B, P47D-11 (or -25, or both), B26
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109F4, 109G2, 109G6, 190A5, 190A8, Ju88A-4
I'm sure this will be dubbed unfair to one side or the other.. but you asked for ideas...
-SW
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Add 202 and 205 to Wulfies list.
F6F for the Bellbottom brigade. I think the British used them....
Lanc
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Dont forget C47s, all vehicles (including LVTs) and CV aircraft - Seafire, F4U-D, F6F. Also - P38L, B17, Lanc, Typhoon, G10, Dora, Tempest, P51D, TA152, Arado.
I'd perk the following: P51D, Dora, 109G10, Arado, TA152, Tempest, B17 and Lanc (gotta perk the heavy bombers since the Germans dont have any). Most important thing tho.....no Hog C.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Well don't add on to my list those late war jobs.. I would prefer something more.. well "sane" than having SpitVs in the same "historical" arena as 190D9s, 109G10s, P51Ds, Ta-152s, Arados and Tempests...
This past setup we had included the 190D9, 109G10, and Tempest... lets not do it AGAIN.
-SW
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So perk em then.
Hell, you could even perk Spit IXs, F4s, A5s, etc, very slightly just to limit the numbers.
Remember, we start with no perk points in the CA and given that combat can be hard to find it'll take ages to build up enough perkies to fly......an Arado for example.
Also, just as an example, spit Vs were still being used in 1945......
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Swoop ]
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I like SWulfes list.
SpitV, SpitIX, P51B, P47D-11 P47D-25, B26
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109F4, 109G2, 109G6, 190A5, 190A8, Ju88A-4 + Panzer, M-16, and M3 for both sides.
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Point is: Why are we doing the MA system in this supposed "HA"... I can understand the perk system in the MA...
But not in this supposed "Historical" arena.
Seems odd to me... SpitVs and Ta-152s?
Let alone 109F4s and Ta-152s on the same side....
Strikes me as a-historical.
-SW
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Swoop.... you are basically asking for the MA without jap and russkie planes with the channel map... BAH!!
Lets do a midwar planeset we can get our late war jollies in the MA at any time.
I go with SWulf's suggestion with perhaps the F6F, Hurri II, :rolleyes: TBM
How about IL2 to replace the missin Stuka? +) just an idea!!!
SKurj
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S!
I may even subscribe, lol
The entire European planeset would be advisable.
In addition, from the Pacific plane set, include the F6F, D-Hog and TBM. The Fleet Air Arm used them on its carriers in `44.
Perk the 190D and Tempest, or restrict their numbers. Also Tempest should be limited to being based in England if you give the Allies a beachhead and bases in Normandy.
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We should make a rolling planeset w/o getting too complicated.
First week of the month Spitv, Seafire, Early 109, early 190. Ju88, Lanc.
Second week...upgrade(replace spit 5 with spit 9), add 51B, replace 109 with later one, add 190 etc.
This way we will get to late war planes and you will have an even match-up.
Otherewise all you have is the MA.
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S!
Forgot the TA-152.
It shouldn`t be in the mix. Didn`t appear until April `45 and your European map doesn`t cover the area of Germany where it was based.
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With an RPS though Skernsk, you can only do one theater of operations for a month. I think they(HTC) are trying to avoid that and give us as much variety as possible.
If they are going to change setups every week or week and a half, a small limited plane/vehicle set would make sense rather than an attempt at encompassing the whole war via the use of perk points. (perk point comment isn't directed at you Skernsk, I know you said RPS)
-SW
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My set:
RAF (unperked):
Fighters:
Spitfire V, Spitfire IX, Hellcat, TBM, P47D11, P51B, P38L
Bombers:
Lancaster, TBM
Please cut off the availability of Fighters on board carriers. Put just TBMs there. I know its not gonna happen, but I damned hate the 10 mile carrier with the idiotic vulch-furball attached. Or modify the Norway terrain to have a good deal of shore batteries to avoid that stupidity to happen. But by any means please stop that joke :(
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RAF (perked)
Fighters: Typhoon Ib (5 perks, late 44 version) Tempest (30 perks) F4U1D (10 perks)------->was used ONCE operationally in the ETO, and it saw no air to air combat.
Bombers:
B26B: 5 perks. B17G: 10 perks.
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Luftwaffe (unperked):
Fighters:
Fw190A5, Fw190A8, Me109F4, Me109G2, Me109G6, Me109G10---------->(like it or not, there were Me109G6s with DB605ASM engines as soon as in late 1943. So until a decent latewar 109G6 or 109G14 is here you can't perk the G10 in an historical arena, sorry. Put the ENY value very low for this plane, but let it unperked).
Bombers:
Ju88 (any doubt? ;))
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Luftwaffe: (perked):
Fighters: Fw190D9 (15 perks),, Ta152H-1 (50perks)------>WILL be very rare, but please dont let it out, is too much kewl :)...
and Me262 :D :D :D :D (100 perks).
Bombers: Arado 234: 40 perks.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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P-47D-R11 or P-51B added, Macchi 202 (maybe even the 205) in the Southwestern area of France and perhaps the F6F on the CV's?
That might add more variety without tipping the balance.
It allows an earlier American plane if we had either of those, an Italian presence as they did fight in the BoB from that area and it also adds a regular mount to the RNAF. Add the TBM to the CV's too? Or is that too much?
Maybe allow the B-26 as a Ju88 medium bomber counterpart and remove the Lanc - or perk it altogether?
Westy
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Originally posted by Westy MOL:
Maybe allow the B-26 as a Ju88 medium bomber counterpart and remove the Lanc - or perk it altogether?
I'd say rather put a cheap perk on the B26 (5 perks), and let the Lanc unperked (the B26s is much more able to defence itself than the lancaster)
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My thing about the Lanc is that there is no Axis counterpart right now. From my experience in AW and what I saw with the WB's WWII Arena and HA is that the situation becomes so unbalancing (once the arena starts to get good numbers in it) that many LW flyers abandon the arena from heavy frustration. Or at a minimum express thier frustration and demand action in the newsgroups.
The same thing would happen with the Allied players should the ME-262 be available.
Jet's and heavy bombers are very unbalancing in these tyes of set-ups.
So in my opinion the Lanc should be removed until there is a comparable LW bomber or the ME262 arrives. Try to maintain parity in performance, where at all possible, and it will help the arena succeed.
As it stand the Allied side has the CV, which is a very big bonus for them. I hope most if not all the mainland Euro bases have multiple shore batteries.
I just thought..... What happens should the Axis "side" capture a port and gain a CV? :) Or better yet, enable one Axis port where the CV could have 109F/G2's and Ju88's to fly off them. It would replicate the German CV having been completed and allow for some naval parity. Even though the naval Stuka and ME109T would have been outclassed by Allied 1941-1943 contemporaries.
Westy
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Huhhmmm I see your point, but do you think it will be so much of an issue?...
I mean in the CT at this moment there is a lanc enabled and almost noone uses it. The Plane has relatively weak defensive armament. I very much more fear a formation of 3 B26s than one of 2 lancasters. The 26s will disintegrate any fighter incoming.
Maybe if the buff gunnery gets a bit toned down in the CT...as it is I think that it is best to have lancasters than B26s. But that is only my opinion, of course.
About the "german CV thing" I hope it simply doesnt work that way. Germany had no CV in WWII, even while the GZ was 90% complete, and I want to see a german CV in an HA-like arena as much as I want to see a Zero in the Axis inventory. That is: Nothing.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
SpitV, SpitIX, P51B, P47D-11 (or -25, or both), B26
-vs-
109F4, 109G2, 109G6, 190A5, 190A8, Ju88A-4
Sounds perfect to me too as a starting point. Save the perkies for the next change over.
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The Zero was built by and for an AXIS country RAM...
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
The Zero was built by and for an AXIS country RAM...
-SW
and was used in the ETO? ;)
Originally posted by JimBear:
Sounds perfect to me too as a starting point. Save the perkies for the next change over.
I have to insist that the lack of a 109G10 is not good. The 109G6 we have is a early 1943 one, and the only 1944 plane in the german inventory is the 190A8. If you want a 1943 set, erase the P51B, if you want an early 1944 set, put a 109G10 in to fill the void of hte lack of a proper early'44 109G6.
I really would like to see a 109G6 AS modelled to solve this kind of thing.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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The only way the lancs could affect the gameplay balance was if HTC made it possible for them to do so.
If this arena is set up around base closures and captures, then the lanc would be an unfair advantage. If its set up with real strategic targets, then it would be something the Allies would have to try to get deep into enemy territory. The Axis would have the means to stop them.
Think outside of the MA for now.
Even does not mean 4 fighters vs 4 fighters, 1 med bomber vs 1 med bomber, 1 hvy bomber vs 1 hvy bomber. Even means that in a given situation, either side has a chance of winning. Defining the objective is how you modulate fairness.
AKDejaVu
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"Huhhmmm I see your point, but do you think it will be so much of an issue?..."
It could be. Not yet. I'm not sure the MA folks who like bombers have had time to shake out the CA.
As for the CV? It was just a thought for a compromise to help keep a balance of sorts. WWII was not balanced in RL but most often when players are face to face with too much reality they back off and go play in the MA. No matter wether they are Allied or Axis type. AH is the first place where the players can drive the CV to destinations. And there is more than CV's in the fleet. Cruisers, LVT's, PT boats, etc. So it's impact on an HA type setting has yet to be seen. It might be fine.
But if people think of how to provide parity to possibly unsettling aspects, without going into the fantasy realm too far or even removing options, then we can help make this work. These details are all things that can be hashed out as we go along. I'm just glad we have the place now to use.
Westy
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I like SWulfe's list. Leave the late war out please. I especially like the idea of B26's and JU88's as the bombers.
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"and I want to see a german CV in an HA-like arena as much as I want to see a Zero in the Axis inventory."
You weren't implying ETO theater, but I just wanted to make sure you knew.
-SW
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SW I am talking of the current CT. That implies ETO. :)
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
The only way the lancs could affect the gameplay balance was if HTC made it possible for them to do so.
If this arena is set up around base closures and captures, then the lanc would be an unfair advantage. If its set up with real strategic targets, then it would be something the Allies would have to try to get deep into enemy territory. The Axis would have the means to stop them.
Think outside of the MA for now.
Even does not mean 4 fighters vs 4 fighters, 1 med bomber vs 1 med bomber, 1 hvy bomber vs 1 hvy bomber. Even means that in a given situation, either side has a chance of winning. Defining the objective is how you modulate fairness.
AKDejaVu
Dangit Deja, is a really surprising day for me the one we agree so much! :).
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SpitV, SpitIX, P51B, P47D-11 (or -25, or both), B26
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109F4, 109G2, 109G6, 190A5, 190A8, Ju88A-4
I'm sure this will be dubbed unfair to one side or the other.. but you asked for ideas...
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Swulf, I agree with your choices most. However, I would probably want to add a 4-engine bomber for the allies. The whole point of this arena is to match historical aircraft against each other and not necessarily make things even so you can get some sort of feel for operations in a certain battle or theater. Yes, the LW did have to defend against a lot of 4-engine bombers so I see no problem with that if you choose to play that role. Anyway, it seems LW players have been outnumbering the Brits as it is anyway.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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The main reason the axis out#ered the allies in the past few days was ya had to fly a looooong ways to get to fight if you were allied, unless you settled for the seafire. With the pony b and P47d25 available (please leave the d11 out) the allies will have more #'s. They always do in these matchups. I'd be very surprised otherwise.
I propose making the 4 engine allied bombers available only from a couple of rear fields, and the medium allied/axis bombers should not be available on the front fields...
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My list was just an idea, or whatever, for you guys to use. I, and apparently a few others, would like to keep this next setup limited to a specific time period/scope of the war which means perhaps ditching the perk point system or somewhat modifying it so say a P51B would cost 3 points while a SpitV would be free.. something along those lines, but I assume that would be up to HTC in the end.
Anyways, good stuff by everybody (except Dejavu.. he's been huffing air in a can again)
;)
-SW
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SW was right on target with his 1st ist good suggestion...................
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
...which means perhaps ditching the perk point system or somewhat modifying it so say a P51B would cost 3 points while a SpitV would be free...
I'm with you on this too.
Was the P38L in the ETO at this time? Maybe we oughta have it in there.
Also, was just thinking, how about having british and American fields. Only british planes available at their fields, only Americans at others, would make it interesting anyway. The fields are so close together it wouldn't hurt anything IMHO.
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I'm not sure on the P38L, I left it out simply because we do not have a P38J and I believe that particular model would be more "at home" with the aircraft I listed.
I just don't like hap-hazardly putting together a plane set because it tends to be a recipe for disparity and sometimes a certain side has percieved advantages/disadvantages (real or not) and well it just invites a lot of bad things. ;)
-SW
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Let's run 6 weeks on Europe. Maybe not 6 consecutive weeks. :)
If I had to pick just one, make it Number 1.
1. Kanalkampf I: Day of the Würger
Allies:
Spit V
Spit IX (perk)
B-26
Axis:
Me 109F-4
Me 109G-2
Fw 190A-5
Ju 88
2. Kanalkampf II: The Empire Strikes Back
Allies:
Spit V
Spit IX
Typhoon (Perk)
B-26
Axis:
Me 109F-4
Me 109G-2
Fw 190A-5
Ju 88
3. 8th AF Arrives
Allies:
Spit IX
P-47D-11
B-26
B-17
Axis:
Me 109F-4
Me 109G-2
Me 109G-6
Fw 190A-5
Ju 88
4. Overlord
Allies:
Spit IX
Typhoon
Lancaster
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-51B
P-51D
B-26
B-17
Axis:
Me 109G-2
Me 109G-6
Me 109G-10
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
Ju 88
5. Invasion of Germany
Allies:
Spit IX
Typhoon
Tempest (Perk)
Lancaster
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-47D-30
P-51B
P-51D
B-26
B-17
Axis:
Me 109G-2
Me 109G-6
Me 109G-10
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
Fw 190D-9 (Perk)
Ju 88
Ar 234 (Perk)
6. Final Days of the Reich
Allies
Spit IX
Typhoon
Tempest (Perk)
Lancaster
P-38L
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-47D-30
P-51B
P-51D
B-26
B-17
Axis:
Me 109G-6
Me 109G-10
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
Fw 190D-9
Ta 152 (Perk)
Ju 88
Ar 234 (Perk)
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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i like swulfes list but i would replace the p-51b with the p-38l
yes the p38l is late war but it is not as formidable as the p51b
i dont want the g10 in, the g10 is super late war, but if you have the p51b then you need the g10. so id rather not have the g10, not have the 51b, and add the 38l
imo
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S!
It is not possible to model a historical `42 European arena. Just not enough planes.
You`d get:
MC202
Spit V
Hurri IIC
Me109F4
Me109G2
Ju88A
The Spit IX and FW190A5 would be ?, because they were not in service generally. There is also an argument for a Lancaster, since the Halifax was introduced in `42. The Fleet air arm had Seafires on trial in `42, but the active Squadrons were Fulmars and Sea Hurricanes.
In `43 you`d get:
MC202
MC205
Spit V
Spit IX
Seafire IIC
Lancaster
B-26
P-47D11
P-51B (introduced in first week December `43)
Me109F4
Me109G2
Me109G6
FW190A5
FW190F
Ju88A
? `43 aircraft would be:
Typhoon: (the AH one is actually `44 model but they were close. Only major difference was top speed at SL which was approx. 10mph faster in 1B)
B-17: (actually this one is `44 model, B17F did not have chin turret)
P-38L: `44 plane, but the P-38J and H were available in `43 and had similar (?) performance.
F6F: `43 plane, but not in service with Fleet Air Arm.
109G10: Not in service till May `44, but the 109G6 with either the DB605AM or DB605ASM were fairly close in performance.
190A8: The 190A7 was very close to the A8 and was available in small numbers in late `43.
`44 Aircraft would be:
All the planeset except:
Japanese planes
C-Hog
TA-152
`45 Aircraft
All the aircraft except:
C-Hog
Japanese aircraft
It is really only possible to model `44 accurately with the existing plane set. It is heavily oriented to late war aircraft.
»»»»»»»»»»»»»
A comment on the Germans insisting there should be no 4 engined Allied bombers:
There were British 4 engined bombers from `42 onwards. The Halifax carried a bigger bombload than the Lancaster although it was slower and didn`t hold up as well. The British also had B-24`s and B-17`s in `42. They flew in the desert and over France.
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S!
By the way, P-51D wasn`t in service till July `44, after D-Day.
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March '44, 55th FG :)
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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S! Funked Up
You learn something new every day... :)
Was the entire Squadron equipped, or was it just a few aircraft?
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I don't know too many details, just that they were the first fighter group in the 8th AF to receive them. There are a lot of photos of various 8th AF units with mixed formations of P-51B/C and P-51D/K. So I think that the whole group was not at first uniformly equipped with the bubble-top 'Stangs.
In any case I meant that Overlord setup to represent a fairly large slice of time, Spring-Summer-Fall 1944, so I'm not worried about exact dates.
And sorry to all for cluttering up this thread. :)
<S>
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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NO perks!!
Permit the more "rare" planes of the time period but from limited bases, behind the front lines. So if you really want to fly that 51B for example you had better be prepared for a long ride to the front. Of course if you know what you are doing you can just refuel at forward fields anyways.
Just a damn good idea..
SKurj
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S!
Actually I`d say go for Funked Up`s scenarios.
But he missed a couple planes:
Day of the Wurger:
Add the Hurri IIC
Empire Strikes Back:
Hurri IIC again
8th AAF Arrives:
Spit V should be there still. Many RAF Squads were still equipped.
Overlord:
Add the F6F and TBM, but only allowed on a British task force.
Invasion of Germany: (Trouble with this one is there isn`t enough Map)
Add the above, plus of course the Me262
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if some 1 can revork the french coast to have omaha beach for exaple many ack but try to alow only human shoting < mean no OTTO > or not all or very long rebuild time coastal guns and a whole bunh of LVT
but then where is the infatery ? ;)
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Originally posted by hblair:
(please leave the d11 out)
Don't really understand why you want the D-11 out. It is earlier than the D-25. Why not leave the D-25 out?
(http://home.att.net/~lmluper/markatsig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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d-11 has porked fm currently
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Ah, the 55th FG. Became the 55th SRW in later years. I served in both the 38th and 343rd squadrons.
This page says they flew the P-51 D from 19 Jul. 1944. Doesn't delineate if all or just one squadron.
http://www.usaaf.com/8thaf/fighter/55fg.HTM (http://www.usaaf.com/8thaf/fighter/55fg.HTM)
<EDIT> However, Joe Baugher agrees with March:
"The P-51D began to arrive in Europe in quantity in March of 1944. The 55th Fighter Group was the first to get the P-51D, trading in its P-38s for the new bubble-topped fighters."
I'd be much more interested in SW's list. I personally would prefer the CT to be as different from the MA as possible.
I flew the current map a few times but simply found it too boring. Ranges involved, types of aircraft available, CV factor primarily.
I'll take another look with the map switch though.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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ALLIED:
P51B
P51D (perked)
P47D11
P47D30
P38J
B26 (perked)
Spit5
Seafire
Typhoon (perked)
F4-1D
F6-F5
TBM
C47
M3
M16
Allied tank (use Pnzr IV )
AXIS:
C202
C205
109F4
109G2
109G6
109G10 (perked)
190A5
190A8
190F8
190D9 (perked)
Ju88
Do217 (use B26) (perked)
Ju52 (use C47)
SdKfz 7 (use M3)
SdKfz7 armed (use M16)
Tk
Pnz. IV
As you se we are very close to have a complete european planeset the most needed are the: Ju 52, some kind of axis eavy bomber , and an allied tank.
FabriK6
1° Gruppo Caccia "ASSO DI BASTONI"
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remove all carrier groups and make them fields of the unused country and move them off map
all german aircraft enabled
all us and brit aircraft enabled but split up bases from which what is available to add variety and similarity to oposition.
ie: fighting a certain base you face british craft fighting another base its US planes
just remove all carriers please
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dunno maaybe this has been mentioned already but what the heck the tread is too long and my time is short so i'll just drop my 2 cents worth...
RPS is actually there already ... in a way it's right there with the perk point system.. you can completely customize it so it's just a matter of tweaking it a bit:
Here's what i'd do:
Axis:
109Fs, G2 Free
109G6 5 Perk points
109G19 10 Perk Points
FW190A5 5 Perk points
FW190A8 8 Perk Points
FW190D9 20 Perk Points
TA152 25 Perk Points
JU88 Free
Allies:
Spit V, Seafire, P47D11 Free
P38, P47D25 5 Perk points
P51B 8 Perk points
P51D 10 Perk points
P47D30 10 Perk points
Typhoon 15 Perk points
Tempest 25 Perk points
B26 Free
B17 5 Perk Point
Lanc hmm.. not sure must be perked even tho was used extemsively.. so say 8 Perk points
Ok now before ya all yell.. if you set the ENY values correct for example the free planes have an eny value of 20, you'd need to kill 5 Spits in a free 109 and you'll have your FW190A5, or a Jug driver would have to kill 10 109Fs to get a P51... the ENY values for more expensive planes would go down, for example say 5 for a P51 and a G10 so it would need them 40(!!) kills of free planes to earn back their 10 Perkpoints they just cashed in to get their ride back (if they loose it), or at least 10 kills of planes with EQUAL strength to get it back..
what would be the outcome? you'd see a lot of early war airplanes with an ocassional latewar plane... but some would be REALLY rare like they were in RL.
Cheers
DW6
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just remove all carriers please...
Yah, why are they in there? They wouldn't be in the English channel with this new map you wouldn't think.
BTW, how long does it take to go from the British airfields to France? (in the AH map)
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NO perks!!
NO G10, NO 51D, no D30, No D9, No F4U, No Tempest, nO Typh, No russian Ac, nO japanese AC, no AxIs CV, 1 aLLied Cv, no tA152, no 234
Add hurri IIc of course... not sure what my vote is on heavies... I prefer the lighter load of 17, but with porked guns...
leave the MA fer the late war monsters
SKurj
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Use SWulfe's list, but drop the 51B and add the 38L.
NO PERKS.
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brits - lanc
germs - 109g
:)
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gawd .. before you guys cry NO PERK think about it ...
if the Perk Points get reset with each tour roll over (or each won war for that matter) you'd have to fly HEAPS to earn D9 for example given the ENY values are set so that it takes you a while .....
think about it a bit before ya cry OH NOOOOoooooooo ....
DW6
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No Perks-
Is the CT seperate from the MA for accumulation of perks?
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Originally posted by SKurj:
NO perks!!
.
.
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NO G10
.
.
.
leave the MA fer the late war monsters
SKurj
Once again,put the G10 in that list until we get a proper 109G6 with DB605AS or AM engine. Because without it you are putting the german set at a disadvantage.
IMO the perks are good to allow certain late war planes into the CT.So please use that or a RPS. I think that the Dora is not so bad to have as perk plane, and in any case I dont want to need to go to the MA to fly a 190D9, sorry ;).
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Perk Points in the CT get reset every new tour?????????
Please don't let it be so.
Swulfes setup seams good but like Ram says, with a G10. Hurricane IIC could be added to the RAF list as soon as 1.08 is out.
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You want to add aircraft from several different years, is this the "a-historical" arena or what?
-SW
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funkedups idea is awesome
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Creamo:
CT is differnt from MA as for perk points... so you'd need to start from scratch to get perks in the CT.
DW6
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Originally posted by R4M:
Once again,put the G10 in that list until we get a proper 109G6 with DB605AS or AM engine. Because without it you are putting the german set at a disadvantage.
IMO the perks are good to allow certain late war planes into the CT.So please use that or a RPS. I think that the Dora is not so bad to have as perk plane, and in any case I dont want to need to go to the MA to fly a 190D9, sorry ;).
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
This is not about equal ground, (even though I think it is definately that), It is about a historical planeset. If it was a 1940 BOB arena, the Germans would be at an advantage, and that would be just fine because that is just how history dictated it. SW's list is really good and about the best we can do. Leave the G10, P-51D, Tempest, TA152, D30, D25, Dora out till another time frame is wished for.
Allied-
Spit 5, Spit 9, P-47D11, P-51B, B26
Axis-
109F, 109G2, 109G6, 190A5, Ju88
Whats wrong with that? That is a January 44 list. The months leading up to historical Big week in March. I get excited thinking about how much fun it would be.
< I left out the Lightening because the one we have is a later variant.>
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Originally posted by popeye:
Use SWulfe's list, but drop the 51B and add the 38L.
NO PERKS.
Well I guess if you are looking for a gameplay concession this is OK, but historically....NO way. The P-51B was operational in January 44. The P-38L was operational later in the year.
edited to ad the "L" on the P-38
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: ]
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Speaking of perks, there were a number of Tempests flying early the first day. How was that accomplished?
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agreed funkeds idea rocks
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The P47d11 should not be included til the FM is fixed.
[edit]What I mean is with a short list like SWulfes, the p47d11 could cause an imbalance if coupled with a ponyb. In a progressive deal like funked is proposing, I don't think there would be a problem.[/edit]
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]
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Lizard, the perk system "cost" was disabled until some odd number of hours had passed and a few people got perk points. Then the "cost" was setup for the perk planes that were in there and people had to "pay" to fly them then.
-SW
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"the p47d11 could cause an imbalance if coupled with a ponyB"
Correct. which is why I earlier suggested one or the other but not both.
Westy
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
This is not about equal ground, (even though I think it is definately that), It is about a historical planeset. If it was a 1940 BOB arena, the Germans would be at an advantage, and that would be just fine because that is just how history dictated it. SW's list is really good and about the best we can do. Leave the G10, P-51D, Tempest, TA152, D30, D25, Dora out till another time frame is wished for.
Allied-
Spit 5, Spit 9, P-47D11, P-51B, B26
Axis-
109F, 109G2, 109G6, 190A5, Ju88
Whats wrong with that? That is a January 44 list. The months leading up to historical Big week in March. I get excited thinking about how much fun it would be.
< I left out the Lightening because the one we have is a later variant.>
Ammo, please read ALL my previous messages because I have already explained this.
You are suggesting a early 1944 planeset, and I say that germany lacks the proper 109G6 to fit in that time, and that while we lack it, we should use the G10 to play its role.
The 109G6 we have in AH is an early 1943 one, the first variant of them all, with DB605A engines. By late 1943- early 1944 many of the 109G6s in action in the western front were sporting DB605AM or DB605AS engines. Some even sported DB605ASM engines.
Many of the 109g6s were fitted with either GM1 and MW50 boosters, some of them with both.
Simply said, the 109G line jumps from early summer of 1943 until late summer 1944. There is 1 year void of adequate 109G representation because the G6 lacks the MW50 booster and/or the DB605AS engine.
The 109G6 we have, hell, performs WORSE than the 109g2!!!. By february 1944, most 109G6s had the MW50 injection wich made them able to fly at 425mph at 25000 feet. Compare it with the terrible 386mph it does the G6 we have and you'll understand wich is my point.
Same goes for the P38L. Is a late 1944 variant, but better to have a later P38 with somewhat better performance than no P38 at all. At least IMO.
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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HuH? You guys want an historical planeset. But when it doesnt suit you you say.."naa cant have the D11 and the npony in the same set". Do you really wnat a Hsitorical arena or do you want an arena where its planeset will be adjusted so everyone will be OK with it, reguardless of history? Whats up with that?
I guess the question I should ask is this.. What is the Combat theater supposed to be? IS it an historical Arena where history itself dictates the inclusion of AC or is it an MA style "axis vs allied" fantasy gameplay arena? If its the Latter then we can tailor the planeset to whatever we want as long as axis is included in one chess piece and allied another. We can even include Japanese AC in France! Hey put the YAK9 and LA7 at RAF Boxted along with my D25 :)
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
HuH? You guys want an historical planeset. But when it doesnt suit you you say.."naa cant have the D11 and the npony in the same set". Do you really wnat a Hsitorical arena or do you want an arena where its planeset will be adjusted so everyone will be OK with it, reguardless of history? Whats up with that?
In my planeset list I put both of them :). I'd WANT Both of them...Historically they were there at the time, and I'd like to fight against the P47D11 and P51B aswell :)
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Originally posted by R4M:
Ammo, please read ALL my previous messages because I have already explained this.
You are suggesting a early 1944 planeset, and I say that germany lacks the proper 109G6 to fit in that time, and that while we lack it, we should use the G10 to play its role.
The 109G6 we have in AH is an early 1943 one, the first variant of them all, with DB605A engines. By late 1943- early 1944 many of the 109G6s in action in the western front were sporting DB605AM or DB605AS engines. Some even sported DB605ASM engines.
Many of the 109g6s were fitted with either GM1 and MW50 boosters, some of them with both.
Simply said, the 109G line jumps from early summer of 1943 until late summer 1944. There is 1 year void of adequate 109G representation because the G6 lacks the MW50 booster and/or the DB605AS engine.
The 109G6 we have, hell, performs WORSE than the 109g2!!!. By february 1944, most 109G6s had the MW50 injection wich made them able to fly at 425mph at 25000 feet. Compare it with the terrible 386mph it does the G6 we have and you'll understand wich is my point.
Same goes for the P38L. Is a late 1944 variant, but better to have a later P38 with somewhat better performance than no P38 at all. At least IMO.
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
Understood complertely RAM. At the same time the allies lack the correct Spit 9, The spit that was better represented was much better than the one we have. So include the tempest in its stead? You see what i mean? The same argument can go either way.
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The 109G10 is simply superior in climb and level acceleration than any plane listed in my planeset.
I'm not saying, "equality".. I'm trying to say "single historical time period"
In other words, it's silly after all these posts I've read "it's not historical" to be subbing aircraft in there just because it's not fair or because it's under-representated.
I left the P38L out for a reason, the 190D9, P51D, 109G10, and all other late war aircraft do not belong with the planeset I listed in anyway in relation to "history"..
If you just throw a jury rigged planeset together because you want your favorite airplane in the set, please play in the MA. If you want a single time period represented then lets do that.. but not lets just throw together planes from between 1941 and late 1944.
-SW
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
Understood complertely RAM. At the same time the allies lack the correct Spit 9, The spit that was better represented was much better than the one we have. So include the tempest in its stead? You see what i mean? The same argument can go either way.
if that tries to be a reasonable answer, Ammo, then I give up. If you try to support that point comparing a Spit LF IX perfomrance with that of a Spit F.IX wich, is just 20mph slower at SL than the spit IX we have (and it is as fast as it at high altitude), while the 109G6 we have is almost 30-40mph slower AT ANY ALTITUDE than the G6/AS I talk about...then ,I say, what I say is that you have your eyes closed.
BTW; the 109G6 we have is 20mph slower than a spitfire f.IX at 25k, when it should be all the the other way. A spit LF.IX is as fast as a Spit F.IX at that altitude. SO IT STILL SHOULD BE 20mph SLOWER than its historical 109G6 counterpart (wich made around 425mph).
Guess who's losing here?
And if you try to even compare a Spit LF.IX performance to that of Tempest's, then its pointless to argue because you simply are joking. You can't be serious.
SWulfe, the G6 with AS engine and MW50 had 200 less hp than the G10 we currently have. Guess what, the climbrate of that plane was, still by far, the biggest of the fighter of his time on the ETO. :)
But not on the 109G6 we have, of course...
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Originally posted by R4M:
if that tries to be a reasonable answer, Ammo, then I give up. If you try to support that point comparing a Spit LF IX perfomrance with that of a Spit F.IX wich, is just 20mph slower at SL than the spit IX we have (and it is as fast as it at high altitude), while the 109G6 we have is almost 30-40mph slower AT ANY ALTITUDE than the G6/AS I talk about...then ,I say, what I say is that you have your eyes closed.
And if you try to even compare a Spit LF.IX performance to that of Tempest's, then its pointless to argue because you simply are joking.
SWulfe, the G6 with AS engine and MW50 had 200 less hp than the G10 we currently have. Guess what, the climbrate of that plane was, by far, the biggest of the fighter of his time on the ETO. :)
Hey M8, just playing the same tune as you are :)
You cant have your cake and eat it too.
My hope that this turns out to be a true Historical based arena. I like SW's setup, because it seems to be based on just that..history. Funked's idea seem pretty good too. I just hope that concessions will be made just to please people when they are way off the mark when it comes to history.
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So now it's about being fair not history?
Honestly.. "realism" and "historical" I never want to see used again in any context by any of you that are trying to replace planes with later models. It's rediculous.
The planeset I threw out there is the closest we'll get to a specific time period, and the most complete time frame modelled in the game.
You just want to replace the 109G10 with the 109G6 because you think the best model of the 109G6 should be available.. well okay, lets get HTC to model the best and latest SpitIX, the best and latest Hurricane, etc...
It's getting rediculous now, you want it to be fair and equal... the war just wasn't like that.
Do you want it to be a historical arena or a hysterical one? Do you want people to log in and think to themselves "Hey, this planeset looks pretty nice" or do you want them to log into it and say "WTF?! A 109G10 and SpitV in the same 'historical arena'"?
If we are going to push the "lets get the best planes in there and cover all 5 years of the war at once", I will just play in the MA and hope that this Combat Theater fails. You want it to be the MA with historical counterparts but covering all 5 years at once.. it's getting rediculous.
-SW
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SWulfes list is good, use it.
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uuuuuuuuuups double post :D
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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ups ups ups ,not double, triple post...
I feel a bit stupid now :D
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
I like SW's setup, because it seems to be based on just that..history.
yah, history is to pit an early 1943 piece of junk against 1944 material. The only early 1944 stuff the germans will have is the 190A8. How historical.
No, better. how typical :rolleyes:
You just want to replace the 109G10 with the 109G6 because you think the best model of the 109G6 should be available..
No, the best model of the 109G6 no. If we just had a late 1943 G6 with a DB605AS engine. No MW50 needed. That should give a decent speed of around 405-410mph at 20K, I would say nothing. But the 109G6 modelled in AH is a piece of crap in a early 1944 set. At that time there were lots of g6s rocketing the sky at 426mph, so I say "put the G10 to simulate it"-
After all Typhoons "simulated" beaufighters in Afrika Korps, right? ;)
BTW the Spitfire LF.IX is just 20mph fastest, on the deck than the Spit IX we have. At 25K is as fast as the one we have.
the 109G6 we have is steadily 20mph slower than a 109G6 with DB605AS AT ANY ALTITUDE. and between 30 and 40mph slower AT ANY ALTITUDE than a 109G6 with MW50.
As you see, both planes are in a "comparable" disadvantage :rolleyes:
Thats all I see its pointless to argue. You get your latest P47D11 (porked until 1.08, BTW), and we fly in early 1943 stuff (109G6, 190A5), or worse, in a 190A8.
I bet you will feel great :rolleyes:
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Darn Boy, you would figure after all the posting you have done you would get it right by now :)
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Hehe...did you never mistook the reply button for the Edit one? ;)
I bet that not 2 times in a row...
I feel VERY VERY Stupid :D
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Last I checked I tend to fly German planes more.. but I could be mistaken...
Anyways, what 1944 plane? The P51B? Okay remove it then.. even though it's actually a late '43 plane.
Other than that, I have no idea what 1944 plane you are talking about.
As far as this: "No, better. how typical."
I hope the other guys that fly LW aircraft understand what that that is the perfect example of a "LuftWhine".
I never played Afrika Korps, it was a jury rigged planeset.
"I bet you will feel great"
Oh, I will. I'm not as inept in the air to need a 109G10, I shot down 2 Tempests, a SpitIX and a Typhoon in a 109G2 in one flight in the CT.
I had two Tempests and a SpitIX dogfighting me and a buddy. Wingman was shot down, I shot down the SpitIX and the remaining two Tempests.
So if you somehow assume I need a later war plane or I am somehow part of an "allied conspiracy", it won't be much of surprise. You go away for a while, and come back, but it's still the same ol' record.
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Anyways, what 1944 plane? The P51B? Okay remove it then.. even though it's actually a late '43 plane.
Other than that, I have no idea what 1944 plane you are talking about.
but,but,but...the P47D11 OF COURSE ;) ask ammo!! :D
(sorry, sorry couldnt resist ;))
About the other part, SW, I couldnt care the less wether you fly german stuff, japanese planes or US Iron. I dont care if you do good or bad on the planes you fly.
What I say is that Germany's early 1944 planeset will be way better represented with a 109G10 than without it, given the planes we have now. And that the resistance against it is something I find really pissing, sorry.
Even when the G10 is a late summer 1944 plane, is something wich can make the role of the true 109G6 wich was there at that stage, better than the 109G6 we have in AH's planeset.
Granted, my view can be somewhat biased because I mostly fly LW planes. I have to say that in a set with the 109G10 I would fly mostly fw190A5s and 109G2s, and the 109G10 much less. Is not a thing of me but as the sides in a historical representation-
Anyway I knew I whined out loud there :D. Still that is just what I think.
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SpitV and 109G10 in the same arena just don't mix in anyway.
I want parity using what we have as far as historical dates go. I would have thrown the P38L in there to replace the P38J if I wasn't thinking about parity.
You didn't think about that of course, you saw me deny any use of the 109G10 and 190D9 in the planeset I listed and immediately went on your allied conspirator conquest or that I would need the best aircraft on the allied side so they would win.
That's simply a joke.
Apparently you do care what I fly or how I fly or what planes I prefer otherwise you wouldn't of placed insinuating comments in your post. Namely the ones I quoted just above.
You can't simply say, "Look you have a P47D-11, I think we need a 109G10 to counter it!"
That's a joke. Should the Allies get a Tempest to counter the 109G10? They WERE counterparts after-all.
You have to take the BEGINNING of the list to figure out what the LAST plane on the list will be, you just can't make a mix 'n match planeset. Otherwise it's simply the MA, something I said many months ago would happen when the first heated topics popped up about a Historical Arena.
My guesstimation is proving correct, atleast up to this point.
You either go with "historical", keeping planes within a certain time period together and performance wise, or you go with... well the main arena.
I'm not trying to represent an early 1944 planset, I'm trying to represent a 1943 planeset.
-SW
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Different subject, but here is the truth according to my sources on the D11. The D11 arrived in theatre in Late 43, and was combat ready with the new prop in Jan 44. The p-51B also arrived on the scene in the same time period.
source "56th FG" Osprey books
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
You didn't think about that of course, you saw me deny any use of the 109G10 and 190D9 in the planeset I listed and immediately went on your allied conspirator conquest or that I would need the best aircraft on the allied side so they would win.
huuuuuuuuuuh? 190d9?...I said that I'd like a 190D9 as perk but that was much much much before than when this started :). In a february 1944 set, the D9 has indeed no place if perk points are not to be used (wich I hope THAT THEY ARE used :)).
Apparently you do care what I fly or how I fly or what planes I prefer otherwise you wouldn't of placed insinuating comments in your post. Namely the ones I quoted just above.
You can't simply say, "Look you have a P47D-11, I think we need a 109G10 to counter it!"
That's a joke. Should the Allies get a Tempest to counter the 109G10? They WERE counterparts after-all.
Of course it was a joke. INDEED IT WAS!!! :D see the smilie? and the ample grin?...
I was making a little joke about that long thread about hte P47D11 in the Aircraft and vehicles forum (in wich, BTW, ammo was right about the paddle prop).
I'm not trying to represent an early 1944 planset, I'm trying to represent a 1943 planeset.
-SW
then we would still be missing the 109G6 AM, andthere is no place for a P51B. The P47D11 can be used as a D5...but then,and if they get the padde prop (wich they should, btw) we have the same problem as with the G6/G10 thing, right? :))
SW, your problem with this is that you have taken it with a complete puritan look. As I said I'd rather havea P38L than none P38 at all in a february 1944 set. And I'd ratehr have a P47D11 with paddle prop than none at all, in an autumn 1943 set.
With the limited planes we have, we should reach a compromise to get what there was actually there. That means that sometimes you fall too short. Sometimes you fall a bit long. But not too short nor too long.
What it matters,at least for me, is that it looks like and feels like an historical set. not to bring here a book with dates and cry that this or that plane was still not there.
but that is only my opinion. and BTW take the jokes as they are...jokes (I'm talking about the P47D11 comment ;))
Oh, and just to put it clear, I Will be enjoying the CT arena with G10, without G10, in a 1944 set, a 1943 set or a 1942 set :) I just want to see ppl thinking with an open mind, and not letting the options to go away just because a given plane was still not there (but one very similar indeed was)
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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I don't think the P47D-11 has a paddle blade propped, it's apparently under-weight which is why I suggested "or D-25".. but I would prefer not to have it (better visibility 'n all).
I take it from the puritan outlook because after 8 years of playing these things in HAs, MAs, etc, my experience in this areas has proven to me that if you pump out a lopsided planset it's simply not fun.
There's no point in including a 109F4, SpitV or anything along those lines when 109G10s, P51Ds, Tempests, Ta-152s, 190D-9s, P38Ls, and other late war planes are running about the arena. Except for the first day, if a perk system was implemented, because they'd need those to get perk points to afford the late war planes. After that.. they are unused and it's simply a waste of time to enable them or even bother including them.
Lets focus on a small part and not just start adding planes in as we see fit. These setups probably aren't going to be up for very long, just give a smaller limited scope planeset a shot.
You never know, you might actually have fun with it.
-SW
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I'd like this to be _different_ from the MA. Otherwise, what's the point?
The MA planeset has a performance spread that is just too large. An example being the range between the C202 and the Tempest.
My idea of fun would be to take a smaller slice of time, use a planeset with a narrower spread of performance which (I think) would emphasize the quality of "the nut holding the stick" (the pilot) a little bit more.
That's why I liked SW's limited planeset idea.
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Ram, I think your list is only missing the 190-F for a jabo capability.
Anyway......
Well the more this is argued to be made into a pure historical arena the more it will become pretty much historically accurate. And when that hapopens it's only a matter of weeks or months before no one flies there.
What is Westy talking about?? The damn fool, head up his butt and talking out his arse!
It's really simple. What I am saying is that one side tends to dominate the other at different points in time if aircraft are available when they historically were.
And that is simply no fun for anyone except for the six people who want this setup to be a hardcore historically accurate arena.
In reality folks do not like being the whipping boy for long and they tend to drift go back to the MA pretty quickly until they have planes they can fly competatively against the other side with. The rest who try to stick it out end up hating it and leaving because they do not like fighting against the large lopsided numbers that tend to result when one side feels repressed too much and they go back to the MA. They quickly grow tired of constanbtly flying from damaged bases or running from groups of gang banging enemy planes.
My posts have only remarked on helping to keep the plane set within a general time period, 1943-early-1944, but at the same time try to make some reasonable choices in the name of parity so that it becomes a place where player vs player counts (human interaction) and not plane-set vs plane-set (mechanical interaction).
I'm in the minority I see and with no ill will or hard feelsing I wish you luck <S>. If you go "HA" you'll go bust. That's just "IMO" of course, but it is based on the online events from the last 10 years.
Westy
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Westy, I don't see how my plane set gives any advantages to one side or the other in terms of aircraft selection or aircraft abilities.
-SW
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I'm not going to sit here and claim to have special insight on what planes historically match up. Especially when it seems that those with much more learning on the subject can't seem to agree.
All I'd like to see is a very small planeset to chose from.
Wulfie's idea gets my vote because of that.
AKDejaVu
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I like Funked's setup. It creates a nice interesting progression. There's some things we need to get done in 1.08 before we can do a whole lot with the CT, so this will do well until then.
I'll implement this or a variant of this plan today. Perk points will be reset, but then they will then remain in effect until the last episode of this campaign.
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GREAT, PYRO!...
my only concern is that I dont see many people wanting to fly allies the first week :(.
but the setup is nice and I like it :)
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I'd not meant to imply your set was bad SW by my post or only mentioning RAMS list. I'm just genrally talking about how some want what was historically available, gameplay be damned or those that want a huge planeset - as that ends up making the CA look more like the MA. I think your set is fine except for the combo of the P-51 and the P-47. Why? IMO, the P-51B will be untouchable and in combination with the higher alt performance of the P-47 the duo will rule the skies. If you added in the 109-G10 that would help offset that effect some.
You may want want to think about adding the 190-F in for an Axis jabo capability (if base attack is to be part of the equation in the combat arena)
A limited set is definately the way to go, imo, as you and RAM have both shown!
Westy
(edited due to Pyro's post: <blush> Funkeds' first post was so big I only gave it a coursery glance. It's nice. I realy need to stop doing that when trying to be a participant in disucssions. I think Pyro made a good choice. I usually fly who ever is the underdog and I can see how things may swing back and forth now and then. Will help keep one side from being in the barrel too long. I hope! :) )
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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S!
A couple comments:
There has been much to do about the fact the Germans don`t have a 109G6 with the DB605AM or DB605ASM engines, ie. a 109G6 with methanol. The suggestion is that the G10 can be added and will fix all this.
Also a lot of complaining about the P-47D11 being included. The suggestion that it is 300 lbs underweight and therefore has to be excluded.
First of all, although I am on record as having initiated posts requesting a 109G6 with methanol, the fact is that the G6 WITHOUT methanol was the most common G6 in service, easily outnumbering the ones equipped with methanol, or the GM-1 Nitrogen Oxide injection system. This was a fact right up until approx. May of `44.
And it is also a fact that the current G10 is a better performing aircraft than the G6 with methanol would be. To suggest that it can be added in `43 is a pretty big leap by the Germans.
Those who are insisting it can be substituted are not being very balanced when at the same time they insist the P-47D11 be eliminated.
Because of course, the D11 is not equipped with paddle blade prop as it should be. If it was, it would have a better climb rate, acceleration, sustained turn, etc.
So until HTC corrects the P-47D11 FM, and until a methanol equipped G6 arrives, then both should be included as part of this CA.
The compromise I am suggesting is that the D11 should arrive in July `43, and the G10 in January of `44. (5 months early for the G10) This, if we are using Funked Up`s scenarios, would see the D11 arrive with his `8th AAF Arrives` Scenario, and the G10 with the `Overlord` Scenario.
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From Pyro's post it looks like the format has been decided.
Time to Play The Game.
:)
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Toad,
Your efforts to prevent this post from breaking the 100 barrier will prove futile.
Muahahahaha
AKDejaVu
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nm
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: bowser ]
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Cool!
Of course now I will whine about the planeset! :)