Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: brady on February 18, 2004, 09:34:27 PM
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We are going to Greace on 10Bears excelent map this Friday, the Plane set is a suto one intended to feature the 202 P40E match up, no fleats will be enabled and the fighting will be centered around mid map to let us see one of the cooler parts of 10Bears very interesting map.
Axis:
202
109E-4
JU-88
Bf-110C-4
JU-87
C-47
Panzer, the M's...
Allies:
Hurcine MK I
P40E
Boston III
Huricane MK IID
C 47
Panzer, The M's...
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Dont you mean Grease?
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Originally posted by Yeager
Dont you mean Grease?
Dunno 'bout Grease, I don't mind Olivia Newton Sex Bomb, but i cant stand John Travolta! :D
BTW, where in the hanger is the Hurcine MK I :confused:
hehe
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(http://oliviaweb.de/movie7.jpg)
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(http://jollyrogers.info/GreeceCTbanner.gif)
130k (about 30k more than I would have liked but I figured wth).
Whatcha think?
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202s on one side, Hurri Is and P40Es on the other. Who could be sad with this setup?
Thanks!
- oldman
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The banner is great Arlo, think you could steal Eaglers Olivia pic and add to it. Good looking setup Brady just the way it is. Don't allow additions or subtractions to be whined in. Or should I say addyshuuns n subscracshuns.;) Thanks Brady
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Arlo It rocks! Very Nice..TY!:)
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Cool. The thing I like most about the CT is I get (have) to fly planes that I would not otherwise ever fly, like the 202 or the Hurri I. Looks like fun.
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P-40E against the 109E good match up... I think... is this the same planeset as the libya map? Good one Brady... :aok
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Originally posted by Oldman731
202s on one side, Hurri Is and P40Es on the other. Who could be sad with this setup?
Thanks!
- oldman
I can't cannot not be agreeable more advigorously. These last few have been vastly superber.
George W. Bush
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Looking forward to the setup. This is without a doubt the most fun set for me. Thanks for putting it up.
Arlo nice looking banners bro. See ya'll Friday.
Robert
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Would be nice to have the Hurricane I enabled on the CVs, and maybe the custom skinned Martlet as well.
I dont see the reason to exclude the CVs.
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II"D" ddddddddd it is:)
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Im gonna fly it all week.
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Originally posted by Slash27
Im gonna fly it all week.
Good! I'll fly all week also if the weather alright. :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
(http://oliviaweb.de/movie7.jpg)
Neat pic. I saw a local high school production of Grease just last week. The gal had Olivia's look down to the tee.
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Come on Brady - give us the CV with Martlets and Sea Hurri's
PLEASE! :D
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I did notice one thing about this set up.... the allies should have the Hurri IIs in there line up... I have no idea why its not... I also noticed the allies have no planes with 20mms. The 40s on the Hurri IID are pretty much usless. What gives?
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Originally posted by Kegger26
I did notice one thing about this set up.... the allies should have the Hurri IIs in there line up... I have no idea why its not... I also noticed the allies have no planes with 20mms. The 40s on the Hurri IID are pretty much usless. What gives?
Heh heh. It's to balance out the popguns on the 202, of course.
- oldman
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You really think ppl are going to be flying to 202?
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Heh ... I'll see Storch's maybe and up it to a yes. The 202 has never been ignored in a CT setup to date. :D
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"Come on Brady - give us the CV with Martlets and Sea Hurri's"
Maybe it would help if we got a Finnish squadron to request this.
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Originally posted by Jester
Come on Brady - give us the CV with Martlets and Sea Hurri's
PLEASE! :D
Will you dang Naviators lock up the ships medical brandy. You've just about turned Jester into a full blown squid, complete with a beak. He'll be volunteering to be Keel Hauled next!!:p
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Originally posted by Kegger26
You really think ppl are going to be flying to 202?
I shot down a few the other night. I saw mostly 109s, than some 202s and a few 110s. Lots of 202s up though. It's a great plane.
Sakai
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202 is one of the best planes in the game.
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jesus, 202 owns this setup. Only thing that handles better is the hurri 1. Nothiing is faster, and nothing climbs better at any alt.
You cant even use compression against the damn thing.
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killing something with a 202 is no problem. Just doesnt happen with two shells.
I think we should find some battle in ww2 where the germans had 109es and 110cs and had to fight against spit5s and pop that into the ct.
I am sure some little regiment was cornered somewhere in africa or the eastern front in a situation like that.
Instead of course we get axis complaining about the lack of cannons in their 202.
I am not saying that this is bad, I actually think this is a pretty darn good setup, just if we had this kind of advantage the axis would be clawing at their eyes. The nearly equivelant would be 109es vs spit5s. Although the spit5 does not exceed the climb and speed of the 109e as much as the 202 exceeds that of the p40 and hurri.
dont believe me? Look it up yourself....
http://www.jannousiainen.net/online_sims/jg_4/index.htm
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You're being a royal dumbarse, Storch. Even in the midst of seeing other players land multiple kills in a 202 you'll still type non-stop in the ch1 buffer that it's pretty much impossible.
Once you figure out that it's not the game's fault, you might learn to have fun. :aok
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Sure thing .... but both times (all 2) I still managed to bag two or three of your runnin' buddies first without any help. I was totally impressed. Other than that you spend most your time running your plane (though you've managed to curb running your mouth as much). Here ... you still cry too damn much. You always have. I just play the game and have fun. :D
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Lets take these one at a time shall we?
Originally posted by storch
Erg, thanks for replying in a nonArlo fashion. ("just don't happen with two shells") I should say not, not even with 60 hits either. look, the modelling in this game HEAVILY favors the allied in many ways.
Please explain this accusation that you throw around rather carelessly at regular intervals.
so no matter what, the allies always end up in a better set up.
[/b]
Again, please explain, I dont see that at all.
the 202 is nice to fly and it is superior performancewise but the guns suck.
[/b]
I agree there, but is that bias or is that correct? How good would an allied planes guns be with only 2 .30's and 2 .50's? Not any better thats how. Your arguement is made irrelevant by the fact that others, most notably TheBug, was LANDING[/i] 3-4-5 kill sorties in the 202. I[/i] couldnt do that, so does that mean its impossible? That is what you are argueing.
the low velocity MGFF HE round while not as good a performer as the later high velocity round was nowhere near as poor as the wonderful folks at HTC have modelled it to be. this renders both the 110C and the 109E relatively ineffective.[/b]
Again, the arguement that if YOU cant do it, then its broken. I think the MGFF is fine, you just have to get close.
I'm of the opinion that the A6M2 and the 109E should never again be featured in any setups. I don't know of any dedicated axis flyers who enjoys them.[/b]
Im not an "Axis" player, but I for one loved the A6M and got plenty of 3-4-5 kill sorties in it last week, but I never, ever shot until the target was under D200. I have done well in the 109E doing the same thing this week (better than I have in the 202), you just have to get CLOSE, so close that you cant miss.
you guys will never admit it but it is a reality and there is plenty of WWII ballistics data supporting this opinion. Axis weapons were at least the equal of the allied and in many cases actually superior. why isn't it so here? and brady knowing this why do you want to force me to use this crap?
[/b]
Nobody forces you to hit the "online" button, that is your choice. I dont know HT, but I did know Pyro pretty well when we were in the Gunfighters in AW, and I can tell you there is no intentional "bias" regardless of what you claim he would not stand for it. He was a critic of AW's modeling much as you are, but he did it in a constructive way, by collecting data that the programmers could use to make the product better not endlessly bleating like a stuck pig on the BBS that his favorite plane was "undermodeled". Are there problems with the modeling of some things in AH? Sure there are, but to say its intentional is patently rediculous and it makes people disregard everything you say.
Nobody listens to you at this point, your like the homeless guy that mumbles to himself in the park, people just ignore you and feel sorry for you because they know you are not in touch with reality anymore.
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Armament complaints are almost always:
A6M2 c.1940
109E-4 c.1940
Hurricane I c.1940
Spitfire I c.1940
MC 202 c.1941
Some folks just cant get over that some fighters dont have 4 x 20mm or 6-8 50 cal MGs as armament. It comes from the endless hours (and therefore slanted expectations) flying LA-7s, N1k2s,Typhoons, P-51s ect in the MA, where these a/c are always available.
If the target doesnt explode after a 1 sec burst from 500 yards....the guns are "porked".
Rubbish. I have seen players (we all have) land 2-3-4 kills in all of the above a/c, so how is that possible if the guns dont work?
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Nice setup - found that the 109e outpeformed the 202 in terms of climb, low speed turning and firepower - landed 2-3 kills on three runs over the weekend.
Used the 2000 rnds of bb's to spray anyone up to 800ft then used the 20mm at under 200ft.
Great setup imho.
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Its possible to land 8 kills in any of those fighters.
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Originally posted by Squire
Armament complaints are almost always:
A6M2 c.1940
109E-4 c.1940
Hurricane I c.1940
Spitfire I c.1940
MC 202 c.1941
Some folks just cant get over that some fighters dont have 4 x 20mm or 6-8 50 cal MGs as armament. It comes from the endless hours (and therefore slanted expectations) flying LA-7s, N1k2s,Typhoons, P-51s ect in the MA, where these a/c are always available.
If the target doesnt explode after a 1 sec burst from 500 yards....the guns are "porked".
Rubbish. I have seen players (we all have) land 2-3-4 kills in all of the above a/c, so how is that possible if the guns dont work?
As I recall I landed five in the A6M2 last setup, all aerial kills, and I am not the best marksman, it was simply that all were close enough (need that in older planes), all were low so after smoking, losing any power at all they could not glide out and land, and it was in a scrum--Zero Weather.
Thing about oopsy/shane was he knew how and when to shoot. That's the key, he can flat calculate a firing angle that boy and that is the trick. Deflection shooting is lost on guys who are used to four cannons and insta pop shooting in the MA.
I am such a pathetic shot I always tried for 6 shots, but I am working on my defelection shooting and my kills are slowly getting higher (though I don't fly enough to ever hang with you guys).
But really, planes do explode routinely in the MA with a few hits at extreme range. If anything, I would say all guns are OVER modeled. I doubt guys routinely killed dodging, twisting fighters at 300-500 yds in the war. Gunnery is insanely easy at distance in this game. Even a level aircraft with minor movement presents a difficult target in real life to cannon and MG fire.
Last night someone killed one of my bostons because he got close and witha spray knocked off both elevators and damaged an engine. He was 200-300 yards out. The Bredas seemed ot be plenty effective at that range and I have to say:
Did most of teh kills in real life explode into pieces within seconds of being hit? Didn't most planes scoot off only to gradually descend and crash? Did they all explode in flames like in the MA?
In real life, with bases farther apart, you'd likely see crippled aircraft landing, many guys crash landing, and some lsses ot damaged AC gradually losing alt. But, in the CT, it is unrealistically fast action and guys want instant results--also unrealistic, in my personal opinion.
Anyways, bring the Gloster Glad, Heinkel . . .what . . .153? and The Fiat CR42 in and let's start to have to maneuver to 80-100 yards to score.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai
it was simply that all were close enough (need that in older planes)
Yup. Even the Bredas and the MG FFs work fine if you wait until 200 yards to shoot.
Funny sensation when we move from a series of early- to mid-war setups into one of the 1945 scenarios, where the guns become insanely effective. No doubt it's frustrating when you're mentally moving in the opposite direction.
- oldman
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All good points (not including storchs, we posted at the same time, not even sure what he wrote). Like I said this setup is a good one.
Early war setups are great for this reason, even though the axis may have the speed and climb, the guns are not overbearing. Now, *****ing about weak guns...
I was chasing a ju88 in a hurri 1 last night, what a hopeless endeavor that was. At least in a 202 vs boston, you can keep up with the darn thing. I must have dumped 400 303 rounds into those planes and didnt even get an engine smoking.
storch writes....
" shot your homosexual behind down a few times BTW so who should learn what. do me a favor address me no further. there is nothing i wish to hear from you or say to you either."
All I have to say to that is wow. Arlo I think you have got undersomebodies skin....
by the way arlo, how is your homosexual anyway? It sounds like he was shot down. I hope he was not hurt badly.
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storch...
2. I think you are right, and in the new flight model of ah2 I think you may see this change. Also in 'real' fights, pilots did not do the psycho stuff we do in a sim.
3. Paranoia
4. 109s compress too easily to be b/zing at 450 mph. We will have to ask widewing, but I think that is the way they performed. If you want to talk about bad modeling lets talk about a6m2s doing 450 mph in a dive without losing their wings....
5. Extreme paranoia
6. Hurricane shot down more planes over england than any other fighter in the bob. The russians were not thrilled with them. Nobody flying a 109f or e was turn fighting with a hurricane, if they were they were too dead to come back and complain about it.
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#2. I read an account of a 20 minute dogfight between Josef Priller and Johnnie Johnson over the coast of France. Priller was in a 190A3 I believe and Johnson was in a Spit 9. It degenerated into a low altitude furball with neither man able to gain the advantage. try taking a great stick used to the 190 here and place an average stick in spit 9 and see how long it lasts and who wins in the DA.
That is interesting, could you post a link to it or something? Did they have equal e on the merge? Perhaps Priller had an advantage? He was flying the A3 when the Mk9 was out? Is it that much more maneuvurable than say the 5?
#6. Read the Finnish pilots accounts of how easy it was to kill the hurricane in the wars up in Finland. Am I wrong in saying that the Hurricane is possibly the most overmodeled A/C in this game? Even though I routinely shoot them down it doesn't change the fact that they could barely stand against the 109E4 and were totally outclassed by the 109F.
Two things: The Finns also thought the Brewster was god's gift to fighter AC and more importantly, German accounts during BOB of the Hurricane differ dramatically--they thought it was a capable AC (and as you know it recorded more kills than the Spits in the BOB did). This setup is basically against BOB AC so it should be a capable aircraft (although it is hopelessly outclassed by the Ju88). The Zerstorer, however, was thought to be less effective by both sides--it is a far more capable aircraft in this game than its reputation. I think both AC had some early war merit, neither holds up in later war scenarios--about what I would have expected.
That pulling Gs stuff is interesting Storch man and I hope someone at HiTech will address that issue by responding to that point.
I too think the Hizookas are a tad overmodeled, especially as it pertains to firing trajectory. But then again, that Spitfire was a beloved/feared plane throughout the war while many objective observers think the 109 design was done by about 1943, maybe early '44 and was simply required to soldier on due to need. I know many 109 freaks will take umbrage at that, but I think the 109 was remarkable for what it accomplished, not because it was an amazing AC in 1944-45.
I also have to wonder how much late war 109 lore there would have been if guys had not been padding their scores on the eastern front or attacking bomber formations. Ivan had some great pilots, but he also fielded some poorly trained slobs in anything he could toss into the air. Not that attacking bomber boxes was light entertainment, those guys had balls, but would they have fared as well or better facing Spits and Stangs and 38s and Jugs???
In war writeups, all planes seem great. the Jug in war reports turns with 109s, catches any 190 and can't be killed. Try stall fighting a 109 in one in this game.
Sakai
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Its possible to land 8 kills in any of those fighters.
Well . . .
for you freaks who know how to fly it might be!
;-)
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai
That is interesting, could you post a link to it or something? Did they have equal e on the merge? Perhaps Priller had an advantage? He was flying the A3 when the Mk9 was out? Is it that much more maneuvurable than say the 5?
I'm assuming that this is the fight Johnson describes in his book, "Wing Leader," although he certainly didn't know it was Priller when he wrote the book (wonder who figured that out). Believe that the time was around the Dieppe invasion thing, and the British were first meeting FWs. By Johnson's account, the FW was all over him, and he felt he was lucky just to survive, much less triumph. His story does make it seem that it was very much a turning fight. I have always wondered how this real-life event could be squared with AW's and AH's versions of the FW. As Storch says, there ain't no way that the Spit is going to lose in either of those games.
- oldman
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Originally posted by storch
Irrespective of what Arlo may say I seldom run from fights even when way out #'d
I have not seen you run, you fight all the time I have seen you so I agree with you there.
#1. The Hispano was very good ballisticly. ALL guns in AH get hits at too far ranges if you ask me, but that is a byproduct of gaming in general, not particular to AH. Very few WWII pilots of any country took D600 shots like we do all the time.
#2. Anecdotal account is not valid no matter who was flying. Lots of anecdotal AAC evidence says P39's were the worst aircraft ever built while the Russians loved it. The USN/USMC loathed the F2A Buffalo whereas the Finns loved it. Anecdotal evidence is interesting but worthless in this discussion.
#3. Never noticed this myself, I think this is you seeing what you want to see.
#4. Correct me if Im wrong, but dont all AH models limit stick forces to 50lbs? I thought I read in another thread in the aircraft forum that all were limited to 50lbs except the Zeke because the test data was all recorded with regulations that limited pilots to 50lbs stick force because that way all data could be compared equally. Keep in mind the 109 BnZ'd Hurricanes, not P51's and P47's (and probably not Spits).
#5. Ever tried to kill a Ju88 in a Hurricane I? I've been shot to shreds in a Hurricane IIC buy the Ju88 in FinnRuss, its all buffs not just the Allied.
#6. See #2 above about anecdotal acounts.
I don't know Pyro. it does however seems strange to me that all the best attributes on one side would be applied. Then these would be countered by all the worst attributes to the other. Still you have people think that this would be coincidental. [/B]
Im not saying its coincidental, Im saying you are seeing the results you want to see to reinforce your agenda and are not being objective about it. What possible gain would they have to alienate the large (albeit smaller than the Allied) groups of customers that fly strictly Axis aircraft? Do you think they really want the Allied aircraft better than the Axis just out of pure bias?
Again, I can tell you Pyro does not care one dang bit that one side's planes are better than the others, his only goal (at least back when I knew him) was the accuracy of the things being modeled. If one gun or aircraft came out better than the anecdotal accounts had them, or another worse, so be it. REAL test data does not lie, while human's are notorius for being unreliable.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
by the way arlo, how is your homosexual anyway? It sounds like he was shot down. I hope he was not hurt badly.
He received a bruised ego and broke a nail. Other than that he figured he could still whup his lover 1 on 1 any day of the week. I went ahead and gave him the rest of the night off anyway.
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Originally posted by Squire
"Come on Brady - give us the CV with Martlets and Sea Hurri's"
Maybe it would help if we got a Finnish squadron to request this.
Why do you say that?
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#5. Need I even go into the Allied bomber whine?
Please do. Address the A6Ms diving ability while your at it. Pull out some data on the N1K2-Js cannons too. You know, how a single hit will sever a F4Us wing at the root.
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Originally posted by Oldman731
I'm assuming that this is the fight Johnson describes in his book, "Wing Leader," although he certainly didn't know it was Priller when he wrote the book (wonder who figured that out). Believe that the time was around the Dieppe invasion thing, and the British were first meeting FWs. By Johnson's account, the FW was all over him, and he felt he was lucky just to survive, much less triumph. His story does make it seem that it was very much a turning fight. I have always wondered how this real-life event could be squared with AW's and AH's versions of the FW. As Storch says, there ain't no way that the Spit is going to lose in either of those games.
- oldman
OM I remember reading something along those lines too, but I'm not sure if it was in "Wing Leader" or "Full Circle" - it was in one of JEJ's books though. JEJ was CO of 610 Squadron flying Spitfire MkVc's out of Ludham during the Dieppe raid (19Aug42). He claimed a 190 killed in the fight over Dieppe, which was likely an A-2.
Priller was CO of III/JG26 flying Fw-109A-2's at the time of the raid and claimed only two kills in that month, both spitfires and both after the raid (21Aug42 and 29Aug42). His unit was flying out of St. Omer-Wizernes at the time and very likely involved in the fight over Dieppe. As far as I've been able to find out so far, Priller didn't bail out of an airplane on the day of JEJ's claim and JEJ did in fact shoot down a 190 that day. I could be wrong but so far there doesn't seem to me to be any chance of it being Priller.
Re: Spit V vs Fw's - give me the Fw any day :). The Spit V won't roll, run or zoom with the Fw so the MkV is on the defensive if the Fw driver's paying attention.
Cheers,
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Originally posted by detch01
OM I remember reading something along those lines too, but I'm not sure if it was in "Wing Leader" or "Full Circle" - it was in one of JEJ's books though. JEJ was CO of 610 Squadron flying Spitfire MkVc's out of Ludham during the Dieppe raid (19Aug42). He claimed a 190 killed in the fight over Dieppe, which was likely an A-2.
Priller was CO of III/JG26 flying Fw-109A-2's at the time of the raid and claimed only two kills in that month, both spitfires and both after the raid (21Aug42 and 29Aug42). His unit was flying out of St. Omer-Wizernes at the time and very likely involved in the fight over Dieppe. As far as I've been able to find out so far, Priller didn't bail out of an airplane on the day of JEJ's claim and JEJ did in fact shoot down a 190 that day. I could be wrong but so far there doesn't seem to me to be any chance of it being Priller.
Re: Spit V vs Fw's - give me the Fw any day :). The Spit V won't roll, run or zoom with the Fw so the MkV is on the defensive if the Fw driver's paying attention.
Cheers,
Storch's contention was that it was a Mark IX spit, that was what cauight my eye. A MkV vs. an A2 makes more sense to me. Also, your discussion here makes my point about going off on anecdotal stories from books of war heroes.
Sakai
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5. Need I even go into the Allied bomber whine?
Please do. Address the A6Ms diving ability while your at it. Pull out some data on the N1K2-Js cannons too. You know, how a single hit will sever a F4Us wing at the root.
All planes exceed their max recommended diving speed in AH, everyone.
The type 99 mk2 in AH are well modeled and I doubt you could produce a film of a one-ping wing separation. That’s the same whines folks through out about hispanos. Don't equate hit sounds with the number of actual hits. Urchin had long thread a while back dealing with 1-ping hits.
The issues with the type 99 mk 1 and MG FF have been brought up a number of times. The MG FF seem to suffer most because the Minengeschoß rounds don’t seem to be modeled at all. It’s not entirely clear whether HT has modeled the MG FF/M or standard MG FF (109E-3) or created some hybrid round.
The problem with the MG FF was that its low muzzle velocity meant a longer flight time and trajectory drop etc reducing hit probability. Not that its damage was greatly reduced.
This particularly affects the Minengeschoß round. In reality it needed enough velocity to penetrate the skin of an aircraft. Granted the higher its velocity at impact the deeper it would penetrate before exploding. However, the Minengeschoß rounds were designed to destroy the structural integrity of stressed skinned all metal aircraft. They were effective in doing this. They had a harder time with the cloth-skinned aircraft such as a Hurricane.
In the 2 Pac scenarios featuring the a6m2, we told folks to only aim control surfaces. They were a number of folks who produced films of a6m2's unloading at 200 yards or so in an F4F and it just flying away.
There are real issues with the type 99 mk 1 and MG FF that are unique to these rounds. That’s not to say that after X amount of complaints that to continuing to bring it up isn't whining, it is.
The diving abilities of some planes in AH are certainly over done compared to real life accounts. But if you decide to test all of the planes in AH no one plane has a unique advantage. Whining about 1 over the other is just that, whining. Above 375mph the a6m2 ailerons begin to lock any way. Regardless of it max dive speed in AH; diving to escape or to pursue is not a good idea in the a6m2.
I will check back to look for your 1 ping wing separation film.
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I have separated the entire rear fuselage with a single ping from a nik. Not sure if there was existing damage. probably.
As far as unloading your weopons, in one account I read, either in "an ace of the eigth" or a compilation of pilot written stories cant remember which, a p47 pilot was bringing a very wounded bird back from europe. His prop was hit and he was so scared that he was close to dead sticking it back over the channel. A fw190 got behind him and unloaded everything he had into that plane. I think he only had mg left, but he made several slow passes. Filling the plane with lead, pulling along side and looking at the damage, then going back, filling it with more lead and so on. Finally he saluted and flew away.
Pilot landed safely at an airfield in england.
Not sure how great the axis mg were....
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That must be it, cant imagine that happened to too many guys.
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Originally posted by detch01
I could be wrong but so far there doesn't seem to me to be any chance of it being Priller.
Thanks, ASW.
- oldman
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a6m2 and a6m5 should dive without compression? ummmmmmmm okay. Can you say ufo?
max functional speed of the zeros was really about 400 mph. Oscar (often mistaken for the zeros) was 50 mph slower than that. Anything over 350 in the oscar and the skin would peel off the wings.
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The a6m2 had problems shedding its skin in high-speed dives 350 or higher). This isn’t modeled in AH. In fact when the a6m2 came to AH I dove to 623 mph and pulled using trim. I posted the film and screen shots. It is an "issue" but it’s an "issue" for all planes in AH.
The a6ms don't compress, their controls become heavy the faster you go. It has large ailerons. AH models these right inline with what one would expect. An F4F can easily escape an a6m2 in AH by diving to 375 then rolling quickly to the right and pulling up. The a6m2 can't follow this.
Storch,
You can “moan” all you like, it doesn't matter to me. I have been in AH a long time. These issues that you are discovering are things that have been whupped to hell and back and nothing has changed. Don't expect it to. This quickest way for HT to ignore you is to call him biased etc.
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Originally posted by Sakai
Storch's contention was that it was a Mark IX spit, that was what cauight my eye. A MkV vs. an A2 makes more sense to me. Also, your discussion here makes my point about going off on anecdotal stories from books of war heroes.
Sakai
Sakai, that's what caught my eye too . I agree 100% with you - autobiographical war stories, as entertaining as they are, aren't generally accurate enough to be useful historical sources on their own. They can be a good place to start a little research but they only give you a superficial view of what actually happened.
Cheers,
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Originally posted by storch
IIRC "compression" only occurs as you approach the speed of sound. No japanese plane ever even came close, even diving. That was the realm of the heavy and powerful USAAF and some USN fighters and maybe the typoon /tempest. I believe most notably the P38, P47 & P51. the ailerons on some japanese did lock up but not the elevators or rudder.
No difference from Warbirds:
http://www.furball.warbirdsiii.com/krod/basic-physics.html
It's probably a conspiracy.
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I had always called the stiff controls at high speed compression. Not sure if that is accurate or not. Warbirds has this in their definition. Not that i trust it...
"Note that some aircraft compress at slower speeds, such as the A6M Zero and Messerschmitt Bf 109. These aircraft are lighter than most others, and sustained high speeds in level fight can begin to compress their control surfaces."
must be a conspiracy. thanks arlo.
Yes it was from american aces, kinda worthless book, but it had a couple of good ww2 stories.
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Thanks, ASW.
- oldman
Oldman :) My pleasure sir. My current project produced a blockage between my ears and the change of scene this little bit of research filled it up and got me going again. :D
Cheers,
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Heavy stick means stick forces are heavy, compression the controls can move but do to turbulent air over them you have no response to movement.
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so which is it? compression or hard to move control surfaces in spits doing 450 mph, or zeros doing 400? Both effects are reduced as the plane slows...
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I will check back to look for your 1 ping wing separation film.
What do care, you dont play remember? I know, you created the CT, and so on, and so on.
I dont have film, what can I say, Im not a big filmer. Im not whining about it as I was flying the N1K. Maybe the Hog had damage, Im not sure. It appeared intact but who knows. I shot at him head on, saw a single sprite on the right wing root, the right wing came off. I actually had this happen twice that week. Most likely its a rare occurence.I have no reason to lie about it but Ill keep the film rolling so I can prove it, or maybe I wont.
it's really more like 10-15 pings to do the job properly
I gotta call bull**** on this Storch. A few hits from the N1K will remove the bellybutton from a F4U with ease. The F6F is much tougher than the Hog though Ill give you that. 10-15 hits seems a stretch. Now I have seen the FM2 take quite a bit if 20mm from the George and keep on trucking. I think you should fly Allied birds a bit more, things are skewed on both sides. Thats just the way the game is. We can only hope AH2 is the answer to our prayers.
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Like I said, the one ping thing was a rare occurence, but whatever.
5. Need I even go into the Allied bomber whine?
Still waiting.
i have never gotten a 1 ping kill in anything but a panzer in this game not even the tiger.
Try the Yak 9T
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Originally posted by ergRTC
so which is it? compression or hard to move control surfaces in spits doing 450 mph, or zeros doing 400? Both effects are reduced as the plane slows...
I don't know anything about spitfires but the a6ms had large ailerons and at high speed the controls became heavy. In AH or any on line game you can't rightly model stick forces so they both would feel the same.
Tango posted a more articulate definition of the 2 on the A & V forum. I can’t remember which thread.
Trash27,
I never said the F4U was tough in AH but like a lot claims that get thrown around there’s never any real evidence. Without film I guess we will take your word for it...
I have read posts by F4U guys that seem to imply a general weakness in the F4U wings but that’s different then claiming the type 99 mk2 is over modeled. I don't fly the F4U so I don’t care, that’s for those folk to figure out.
I can say that like the claims of 1 shot hisso kills no one has ever came up with proof. I have some time in the niki and never killed any plane (except pk) with 1 round. The FM2 and F4F are the toughest of all the Navy planes imo.
YMMV
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Trash27,
I never said the F4U was tough in AH but like a lot claims that get thrown around there’s never any real evidence. Without film I guess we will take your word for it...
Butz,
I never said you said the F4U was tough in AH, and take my word or not. I could care less. I saw what I saw and I have no idea if the cannon is overmodelled or not. I know they are deadly as hell and I deal with it. What else can you do?
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even in the yak 9T I don't think I've had a one shot kill
You must have bad luck:D
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Easy, I dont.
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I've gotten 1 hit kills with every cannon in the game- on undamaged planes. Well, unless someone managed to shoot my opponent on the runway in the DA and they didn't say anything.
I've even gotten 1 hit kills with MG-FF's before, maybe 2-3 times. They are far more common with the Hispano than anything else, but I've gotten em with every cannon now. Every one hit kill I've ever gotten (not counting cockpit shots) was on the tail. Either the stabilizer went with one round, or both elevators/horizontal stabs went with one round.
I know someone that said they got a one hit kill with a .50 once. Hit the guy in the cockpit and blew him up... I've never done that before.
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Do you have 6 witnesess, a blood sample, and a notarized statement to back up your claims?:D
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He doesn't need it, you can trust him.
Either way theres nothing unique to the type 99 mk 2 as described by his experience.
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I had 3 one-hit-per-kills in a single sortie the other day. Was in the Hurri-IID, of course. I fired exactly 3 rounds per burst and scored 1 hit each time I fired. After 3 kills I had only fired 9 cannon and no MG. Convergence was set at 250 and shots were fired just over 100.
eskimo
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HUrri IID is nice but too damn slow. WOuld rather get two kills in a P_40E and land them! Thats why I love the Tempest. Two flashes and they go down, no questions asked!
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Originally posted by storch
It's not anecdotal, it's a fact the highest # of kills attributed to any fighter is 41 to a brewster 239 flown by the finns. also the brewster still holds the highest kill ratio of any fighter.
And its a fact the F2A was butchered by the Zeke at Midway and earlier in the Dutch East Indies. The LW planes the Finns were fighting were better than the Zeke in every respect save for turn rate. Why did the Finns have good success with the Buffalo while the Dutch and USMC did not, when the Finns were fighting better aircraft? Could there be another variable here?
The Hispanos were at best the equal of the MGFF and inferior to the MG151.[/b]
Now your just being silly. Some facts to clear your dilusions:
ROF [rounds per minute]
MG-FF:520, MG-FF/M:520, MG151/20:740, HispMkII:600, HispMkV:750, ShVAK:800, Type97(Ho-3):400, Type 1(Ho-5):850, Type99/1:490, Type99/2:490.
MG-FF's and Type 99's are clearly inferior to all but the Type99's in ROF, while the MG151/20 is in between the two Hispano types, though it is much better than the MkII, and essentially equal to the MkV.
Muzzle velocity [meters/second]
MG-FF:570, MG-FF/M:690, MG151/20(92g/115g):800/710, MkII:880, MkV:840, ShVAK:800, Type97:820, Type1:750, Type99/1:555, Type99/2:750.
MG-FF's and the Type99/1 are again clearly at the bottom, MG151/20 depending on the projectile size is OK or very good, and both Hispanos clearly better than any LW gun.
Projectile size [grams]
MG-FF:115, MG-FF/M:92, MG151/20:92 or 115, MkII and V:130, ShVAK:96, Type97:164(!), Type1:94, Type99 1/2:142.
This time the Hispanos are in the middle, but are better than any of the LW guns.
So you are saying that the MG-FF with a MUCH[/i]lower ROF, MUCH[/i] lower velocity, and a smaller[/i] projectile is equal to a Hispano, and the MG151/20 that is only better in ROF against one version of the Hispano is clearly superior? surely you jest? How do you justify that claim in the face of real evidence, more anecdotes? I've got an anecdote that says the moon is made of cheese, doesnt make to true.
I'm not sure about all fighters, but i can shred the wings off of a laden pony which i should not be able to do.
Take an axis craft. dive and pull G look at the G meter note when you black out. do the same thing in a spit count the seconds you are out while in both then come back and call me on it.[/b]
I will try that. I have not noticed in the course of flying any less ability to pull G's in any particular plane, but I admit I have not tested any of them either, you could be correct.
Test data, sure. you mean like when we captured an A6M2 near dutch harbor, reconstructed it and test flew it. came up with data stating the Zero would stall the engine from fuel starvation in Neg G as the early merlins? Only to be shown that the carb was improperly tuned. when tuned by Japanese POWs the problem went away. The data used by the allies were in many instances flawed. For instance the aileron adjustment on the 190 was critical to get it right as it affected it's turn fighting ability. captured 190's had the aileron adjustment slightly off.[/b]
And anecdotes are better? I happen to agree with you in respect to the 190's aileron's, but what do you do, use some guys off the cuff "opinions" of an aircrafts performance instead just because he flew it in combat? Using that standard every plane in the game would be undermodeled or overmodeled depending on which quote you take. I have already pointed out the differences in the anecdotal evidence on the Buffalo and P39 as examples of why not to use them. Anecdotes are like the Bible, somewhere you can find a quote that will say anything you want, you just have to find it.
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done with you. Oh no:(
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Gods storch, you're a farging idiot.
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Lol.
I think most peoples problem (well, mine anyway) is that the Mg151/20 and the MG-FF/M relied on explosive power to do the work. Therefore they weren't as inferior as one might expect looking at the Muzzle Velocity and projectile weight. The 92g Mine round had a lot more explosive content than a Hispano round. IIRC, the HE round had as much as a Hispano round.
But in AH, the Hispano hits around twice as hard as the MG151/20, which in turn hits roughly twice as hard as an MG-FF/M.
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Originally posted by storch
Ok lets test that idea. use the bible to prove that the sky is green instead of blue.
Uh, that was an example of how non-emperical material can be twisted to suit the users needs. I guess I should have been less cryptic for you.
done with you. [/B]
Thats fine, I did not expect a reasoned and cogent answer rebutting my case, you did not dissapoint.
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All of the cannon rounds that have hit me have been overmodelled.
I want to be clear on that.
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urchin in his 202 is overmodeled.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
urchin in his 202 is overmodeled.
Dude. Waaaaaaaay.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Squire
"Come on Brady - give us the CV with Martlets and Sea Hurri's"
Maybe it would help if we got a Finnish squadron to request this.
Again Squire, what did you mean by this??
Folks,
One thing that came to mind when talking about Hispano Mk.II and Mauser rounds is that Hispano shell is fairly sharp tipped which gives it better aerodynamical properties compared to Minegeschoss' flat tip. AFAIK the down side of the sharp tip was that the round didn't always fuze when it hit the target while the more flat tip enabled almost 100% that the round was going to explode. I doubt this has fuzing probability is modelled in AH.
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Wmaker,
He may believe Brady gives undue support in regards to request for running FinRus in the CT. Despite the fact that the Fins have done a lot for the CT. He feels just because he types "gimme plane x y z" that he deserve the same attention as the "Fins".
He fails to grasp the fact that Kanttori and others have done a lot of work, not just for the CT, but for numerous AH scenarios in producing maps and skins etc.
From his quote above and by other statements he has made one could assume he feels Brady "is a tool of the Finish players".
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can i pay brady for all pac all the time?
If its map making that gets you setup time I can make a pretty nice map. Just ships no land.
I dont like that logic batz. Favorites always stink.
this is biased of course, cuase I hate the russian front stuff. Very pretty map, but ewww, soviet planes are boring.
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Favorites?
player 1 asks "lets run plane x y z"
player 2 asks "lets run plane x y z" by the way heres a new map, skins etc.....
CM runs player 2's set up, favorites? You bet, you get more out of player 2 then 1. It has nothing to do with the theater itself.
So player 1 whines and cries instead of going back building the terrain etc that would help sell his setup.
Even with artik's Israel/Egypt setup he deserved a chance to run it for the effort he put in.
Kanttori not only made Finrus but did Okinawa as well.
Pac guys have their own development group and once they start turning out a steady flow of setups I am sure they will be used often.
Sorry you hate ostfront 'cause Kanttori is "at it again". :p
Stay tuned...
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"He may believe Brady gives undue support in regards to request for running FinRus in the CT"
Yes, I do, and thats not all.
...I remember when Stream asked to have the P-40E available at a CV for his squad night some months back. The P-40E was already available in the setup, as were the CVs. The reason? the 325th FG had a historic real life event based on rolling some P-40s off a CV in the med. So he asks, and the answer from the CT staff? no. Thats just typical, "player feedback" is a catchy phrase here.
But hey, ask to setup a map close to their hearts, no problemo.
As for having to create new maps and skins?, it was never a requirement to design a setup and submitt it with brand new maps and skins untill ex-CT pukes like you started using it as an excuse to ignore any setup your 109G-2 crowd didnt like.
Its just the CT, we aren't doing Scenarios here.
As for the "new crop" l am willing to to work with them, and have supported the CT and their setups by SHOWING UP, with my squad on a regular basis. Unlike some who just sit by the sidelines, remenis about past glory and shoot their mouths off.
Regards.
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no no non non nonononononono
So if kantori makes 'moon base 7' we get that rather than a nice simple pac setup that many love and look forward to? or instead of a 1943 p47 vs 190 setup? or a good old BOB setup?
Or something as neat and interesting as next weeks p38 vs nik/ki61 setup?
no. map making should not determine what gets played. I like trying kantoris maps and I think they are near perfection, and often (not lately thank god) it seems like the ct gets stuck in a rut
russia early
bob
finland early
europe
finland early
finland late
pac
isreal???
finland early
bob
africa
finland
finland
finland
finland
finland
Finland was not all that 'important' or interesting to those of us not from finland. Flying 109s vs 109s is not really up there for most ct folks either, whether they are painted differently or not. If I wanted to match up the same planes in dogfights i would of course be flying in the MA.
Again, not *****ing about the map, the map kicks ass, just we see it a little too often. (imho)
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Nice exaggerations there erg.
Squire
p40 from cvs? Ok, those bastard CMs.
I never said that the CT was a scenario. I said when given 2 choices; between a long time whiner and a setup created with effort by a group who contributes far more then just showing up that the choice is easy.
Pac folk are a dime a dozen in AH. Very rarely is there a place where a 109e can face a spit 1, or g2s face off with la5s. The main is full of hogs and f6fs. So what if PAC setups aren’t run on a regular basis in the CT. But unless you are going to exaggerate like erg you know that PAC setups are run, just not the way you like them. The CT is the only place where some planes are ever flown. It’s a good thing to be able to rely on that. The varieties of maps also attract folk into the CT. Especially the good ones like Finrus.
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I never said that Finn-Russ was a bad setup, or that it shouldn't be run. We have shown up for squad night every time its been up, as both VVS and Finn/LW.
"So what if PAC setups aren’t run on a regular basis in the CT"
Well, at least you are honest about it, but, its not like we didnt notice that sentiment before, you know?
As for the MA, im note sure how that is relevent in regards to PAC setups. The MA is a wasteland no matter what you like to fly, PAC or ETO. Lots of F6Fs, really? so there aren't LA-7s, P-51Ds and 109G-10s with every other player?
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I too disagree with the ma comment from batz (and if there are so many pac people out there, doesnt that mean we should have more pac time in the CT?), but I think we are all at cross purposes anyway.
It all comes down to a schedule. Then there would be no more griping about the setup. Pretty darn easy if you ask me. europe, pac are your only theatres in all reality. Since there are so many europe variations I would say a good split would be 2 europe: 1 pac. I at first thought 3:1 but that would mean 36 euro maps a year vs 12 pac. Course 2 pac maps in two months is about what we get now. Maybe a little less.
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Originally posted by Squire
"Come on Brady - give us the CV with Martlets and Sea Hurri's"
Maybe it would help if we got a Finnish squadron to request this.
Yep Batz, I was pretty sure that was it but I just wanted to make sure. :)
Squire,
First, AFAIK Fin-Rus has been asked for the CT once by a finnish squad. It has been asked a couple of times by the finnish Virtualpilots association in different kind of occations where there has been a change to promote virtual flying to a fairly large audience. Fin-Rus has been an instant hit in Finland among people not aware of virtual aviation for the obvious reasons. IMO there couldn't be a better marketing tool for HTC in Finland than Fin-Rus. And Brady most definately haven't been the only CM to run it on these requests.
So your remark was clueless, very childish and bitter.
All,
Because there obviously are 8-year olds among us who cry when they can't fly their plane of choise every week like they would when their little brother gets something they didn't...why don't we try to make everything as EVEN as possible so that setups are run for example in this sequence PTO/MTO/ETO?
It's just a suggestion. I don't know if it's ok for the CMs or not. Personally, I have favourite setups in all of those theaters and even as a finn can fly other planes than Bf109G-2 even though it seems hard to believe to some.
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"First, AFAIK Fin-Rus has been asked for the CT once by a finnish squad. It has been asked a couple of times by the finnish Virtualpilots association in different kind of occations where there has been a change to promote virtual flying to a fairly large audience. Fin-Rus has been an instant hit in Finland among people not aware of virtual aviation for the obvious reasons. IMO there couldn't be a better marketing tool for HTC in Finland than Fin-Rus. And Brady most definately haven't been the only CM to run it on these"
Find any post where I said I had a problem with that, with any Finnish squad, or Finnish setup. Go ahead.
You seem hell bent on blowing it far out of all proportion, be my guest.
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The dime-a-dozen PAC types get it Warloc. Wmaker, no is downing the Finns. Finn/Rus just gets ran a hell of alot.
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"Oh yeah, well you're a poo poo eater guy."
"No you are, you're a big . . ."
"Poo-poo eater."
" . . . a big jerk,. that's all. A jerk."
We now return you to a previously unhijacked thread. Happy flying.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai
"Oh yeah, well you're a poo poo eater guy."
"No you are, you're a big . . ."
"Poo-poo eater."
" . . . a big jerk,. that's all. A jerk."
We now return you to a previously unhijacked thread. Happy flying.
Sakai
:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by Squire
Find any post where I said I had a problem with that, with any Finnish squad, or Finnish setup. Go ahead.
You seem hell bent on blowing it far out of all proportion, be my guest.
Well, I think I expressed myself in a fairly calm manner.
And here's what you said yourself...
Originally posted by Squire
"He may believe Brady gives undue support in regards to request for running FinRus in the CT"
Yes, I do, and thats not all.