Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Steve on March 18, 2005, 06:51:00 PM
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http://www.foxnews.com./story/0,2933,150750,00.html
My life experience teaches me that on the whole, we're talking about a group of people who are hardworking, dedicated to family, honest and honorable, and who want nothing more than what you and I want - a chance to be part of our "American Dream". They don't want to freeload. They want to participate, contribute, and help the thing grow.
It just doesn't seem so here, does it?
* edit. certainly not "on the whole"
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Actually, Steve, I don't see anything in the article that contradicts what you quoted from my prior postings on the subject - when you take that quote in context with the rest of what I posted.
Again, allow me to try to explain this to you.
I agree with you that we should do a better job of controlling illegal immigration. OK?
I also agree that abuse of the resources in our healthcare system by illegals is a problem. OK?
What I can't seem to make you understand is that in many cases what motivates illegals to resort to emergency rooms for what should be things treated by physicians in their offices is the same thing that motivates many citizens to do so - poverty. (Point #1, please file for reference) These people do NOT necessarily have intent to be freeloaders. In many cases, they are simply....sick....or have a family member who they care about who is....yes, you guessed it....sick.
Further, a causal factor in motivating poor people to resort to abuse of the system in order to receive badly needed health care is the lack of a way to afford it within their means to pay. (Point #2, again please file for reference)
Last, the fact that illegals in many cases find sources of illegally paid for employment here at rates of pay that are both exploitave of their circumstances and so low there is no way medical care here will be affordable by those so employed is IMHnsO an indicator that we are, by virtue of how we are handling immigration and illegal employment issues, creating our own damn problem to a large extent. (Point #3, don't lose track here).
OK, let's summarize:
1) People who are sick and don't have money may want to be treated anyway and seek help where they can (doh). This doesn't mean they want to be freeloaders, they may just be in dire straits.
2) Our health care system isn't affordable until a person reaches a certain level of income - after all, there are more basic priorities, like food (doh again). If we fixed that by making sure alternatives existed that allowed people to receive basic health care by paying what they could afford, even if we had to subsidize that to some extent, we'd perhaps encourage them to do so rather than abusing emergency rooms and this would be beneficial and cheaper to us by far.
3) If we'd JAIL any prettythanghat who exploits wetback labor (including fat lazy gringas who pay for mexicanas to care for their kids while doing their laundry, farmers who want to be the cheapest in the market with product, sweatshop owners, etc) then that available job pool would dry up and perhaps there would be less motivation for people to seek it (doh X 3, eh?) Further, if we'd recognize there's a demand for these services and let capitalism work by allowing that demand to be filled legally, perhaps those who'd supply the demand would be very happy to be able to do so legally within the system, paying taxes AND for their health care (doh X 4 and I rest).
Try to get this straight. I, like you seem to be, am a libertarian. I believe that with freedom comes responsibility, including for self. I don't like paying anyone else's way, illegal or not.
I'm just compassionate enough towards other humans that I can sympathize with the plight of someone who's sick and can't dig enough pesetas out of their pocket to see a doctor.
I'm also sensible enough to realize that there are problems with OUR SYSTEMS that serve to exacerbate the things you're complaining about. I am merely pointing those things that I recognize out and saying we'd go a long ways towards solving the problems you're complaining about (illegal immigration and abuse of our healthcare system) by being proactive in the search for solutions.
Man, I've done my best. If you still can't grasp what I'm saying, lets agree to disagree, OK?
culero
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Very well said Culero, you did a far better job in explaining it than I ever could.
Originally posted by culero
3) If we'd JAIL any prettythanghat who exploits wetback labor (including fat lazy gringas who pay for mexicanas to care for their kids while doing their laundry, farmers who want to be the cheapest in the market with product, sweatshop owners, etc) then that available job pool would dry up and perhaps there would be less motivation for people to seek it (doh X 3, eh?) Further, if we'd recognize there's a demand for these services and let capitalism work by allowing that demand to be filled legally, perhaps those who'd supply the demand would be very happy to be able to do so legally within the system, paying taxes AND for their health care (doh X 4 and I rest).
culero
That's the best way to cut down on illegal immigrations but until the time the money these businesses put in the pockets of politicians, I don't see any real enforcement of our laws being upheld. When Pete Wilson was governor of California, he stopped the immigration raids on farms and other businesses. It later was found out that these businesses were some of his biggest political campaign money contributors. This ban though wasn't lifted after he left office and still continues today in California.
Another reason why these businesses fight so hard against any type of immigration reform such as the re-introduction of the Bracero program is that they'll have to pay for medical insurance and housing for their farm workers, which would mean increased prices in the stores for our produce.
It's sad how, for the most part, these people that come across our border are looking for a better way of life, for them and their families and instead get used and exploited.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
snip
Another reason why these businesses fight so hard against any type of immigration reform such as the re-introduction of the Bracero program is that they'll have to pay for medical insurance and housing for their farm workers, which would mean increased prices in the stores for our produce.
Not necessarily so.
At the risk of being offensive, allow me to illustrate with rhetoric. How many plantation owners a couple of centuries ago said "I gotta have my slaves in order to get my cotton to market" only to be proven wrong by Eli Whitney?
My point is that there may be better solutions we haven't found simply because greed and a system that looks the other way encourages some folks to exploit others.
Make that behavior prohibitive by enforcement of labor laws (instead of saying "Throw them back over the fence!") and guess what? Our capitalist system would now have incentive to find a better way.
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It's sad how, for the most part, these people that come across our border are looking for a better way of life, for them and their families and instead get used and exploited.
ack-ack
Word, brother.
I sometimes get pissed off when guys like Steve say the things they do, but I'm wrong to do so. Unfortunately, language and other cultural differences often tend to keep good people from understanding that other good people are good.
The things you and I understand here are things we understand because we speak the language and share an intimate knowledge of the culture of the people being discussed. Its easy to see why those without that advantage might misunderstand things, because appearances can be deceiving.
culero
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I don't buy the story they get used and exploited. I work with them everyday, dozens, hundreds of them. I like them, respect them, and want them jailed for being illegal.
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Originally posted by Lizking
I don't buy the story they get used and exploited. I work with them everyday, dozens, hundreds of them. I like them, respect them, and want them jailed for being illegal.
So, am I to understand you condone the behavior of the people that hire them and pay them in the illegal ways they do?
Am I also to understand you'd rather we pay tax money to house and feed them in our jails instead of allowing them to work legally and pay their fair share of taxes on the money employers pay them for the services those same (citizen) employers encourage them to supply?
You've always seemed like a really sharp guy to me, I can't believe you don't have the capacity for insight enough to realize there's two sides to this coin (doh).
culero
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Originally posted by culero
always seemed like a really sharp guy to me, I can't believe you don't have the capacity for insight...
You caught him in a weak moment. Or something.
Because taking a stand against the entire enchilada is one thing, but wanting those who, on a daily basis, you work with, like, and respect jailed is out of control.
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I don't condone any of it, in any way shape or form. They are breaking the law, the employers and the employees and they both cost us money.
That does not mean that I can not relate to them, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they are illegal. Just like I can personally know and like a drug dealer and still condemn what he does for a living.
I would prefer that we sent them home the first time, then locked them up for a long time on the second offense. That is the only way to end the cycle.
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If I was King, they would get a free ride home the first time, while the person who paid them would be fined a large sum.
On the second offense, they would both be busting rocks in the desert, living in tents behind chain link fences for a long time. After a few years of this, there would be no incentive for them to cros the border illegally. There are good programs in place for employers to make, and get legal workers from Mexico.
The harm they do is not limited to the strain on our social services; it is much deeper than that, and depresses the wages of many jobs to a level where"no one will work for that". The reason no one will work for that is because they can't, but the illegals CAN, and WILL.
I am not talking about laborers here, mind you, but business owners and contractors running crews and enterprises.
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Originally posted by Lizking
The reason no one will work for that is because they can't, but the illegals CAN, and WILL.
Do they have some kind of gene that you don't share? Are they impervious to meteorites as well?
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Originally posted by Lizking
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I would prefer that we sent them home the first time, then locked them up for a long time on the second offense. That is the only way to end the cycle.
Excuse me, BS. Plain and simple. Your proposed solution not only is expensive, its_just_plain_stupid.
The same thing can be accomplished by shutting off their opportunity to HAVE illegal employment (think! man! if the job ain't there they CAN'T have it!).
Don't you believe in our core values, like capitalism and a free market? Wake up and smell the coffee, man. Force employers to operate within the law, allow any demand for services that can't be filled by citizens to be legally filled by non-citizens, et voila. Problem solved. QED and all that stuff.
Jeez.
culero (seriously, quit being stubborn in your prejudices and think this through)
PS - also don't allow this discussion to offend you. We need to go fishing this summer and discuss it over tight lines and BBQ here at fish camp deluxe (http://home.rgv.rr.com/casamyers/) (that's me, about a 15 minute boat drive SE into the Lower Laguna Madre from Port Mansfield). E-mail me and lets make plans. Seriously.
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No, Nash, they do not pay car insurance, they live 12 to an apartment (for examples), they are willing to accept a much lower standard of living than the typical American, and since they do not pay things like workers comp and most taxes, they are able to do work for less than a comparable, legal company can.
Their personal choices re living conditions are fine, but the unfair advantage they gain by not complying with workplace requirements are not.
You can blame their ability to get away with this on whatever you want, but the fact remains they do.
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Culero, I agree with that, 100%.
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Hey Culero, I am ready for some bay fishing, big time.
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Originally posted by Lizking
Culero, I agree with that, 100%.
OK, so when do you wanna go fishing? :)
culero (my e-mail here works)
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Well, yeah. I can't disagree.
They work harder, for less. Much less.
Ya can't compete, that's fer sure.
Life's a *****.
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Fishing the rocks at Baffin.
(http://www.lizking.com/tungafish.jpg)
Drift flyfishing near Bird island:
(http://www.lizking.com/vfly.jpg)
My brother and I almost bought a shack at the mouth of Baffin, but the guy would never commit. He only wanted 20 grand for a decent camp in 2000.
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Skuzzy, please ban Liz for posting this porn.
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Wow, Baffin. I've lived an hour or so boat ride from Baffin all my life, always wanted to fish it, never did because I fear those damn rocks and haven't had the chance to go with someone who can orient me.
But, an old Air Warrior buddy is at this moment trying to arrange a guided trip for us (out of Corpus) so I'm looking forward to that.
Dood. I'm good in the Port Manny area. I'll trade you guide service for guide service. Crap, e-mail me and lets start hashing it out, we're both up we can exchange phones and get it done.
culero (fishing's the important stuff)
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I guided Baffin and Bird North to the bridge, but my info is sadly out of date. You made a wise choice about Baffin, I have towed in a bunch of people with broken boats and faces from hitting the rocks. All of my Mansfield experience is offshore, fishing the Marlin tourney, and a couple of runs to the land cut.
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PS - go back to that link I posted, scroll down and click the "culeroboat" link. Ever see one of those? (13'X5' "scooter", my first boatbuilding effort) Real blast to fish from in the LLM.
That's my wife, couple days after Xmas 1996, showing off her trophies of the day.
I dropped that speck in the water after she boated it, while I was trying to put it on a stringer. It was either dive in and grab it behind the gills before it skied or die (she's mean as a rattlesnake when she wants to be ;)) I managed that and grabbing the drift sock as it went past. Funniest thing ever, shoulda been on America's Favorite Videos :lol
culero
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PSS - we were using bait that day (ueah yeah, I know, but in addition to lures I also enjoy throwing a cast net for my mullet and using them sometimes, too, its all gud)
We were drifting, casting ahead and drifting up to the bait before doing it again. That red took the bait about 10-15 feet in front of the boat, in crystal-clear water about 2 1/2 foot deep. He approached, stopped, looked, puffed up/spread gills/extended fins then charged it like a dog hitting a cat. It was really cool.
I remember that day like yesterday. Fishing the Texas coast is glorious, ain't it? :)
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Originally posted by Lizking
I guided Baffin and Bird North to the bridge, but my info is sadly out of date. You made a wise choice about Baffin, I have towed in a bunch of people with broken boats and faces from hitting the rocks. All of my Mansfield experience is offshore, fishing the Marlin tourney, and a couple of runs to the land cut.
The land cut and the areas OTW from PM are great, but I prefer the areas OTW the east cut (where you went OTW the Gulf) and especially the areas to the south.
No worries, the invite's open. I'm even planning a trip fairly soon to the cabin with that same AW buddy. Get in on it.
culero
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I was wondering about the boat, I couldn't figure out what make it was.
Here is a pic of the good old days back when the limits were a tad more generous, though the fishing is just as good now (mainly because of the limits):
(http://www.lizking.com/baffinhaul.jpg)
That is from motherboating a group of waders. I'm lookig for a pic of our camp in Lousyana, Port Sulpher, known as the Tiltin Hilton.
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Originally posted by Lizking
snip
My brother and I almost bought a shack at the mouth of Baffin, but the guy would never commit. He only wanted 20 grand for a decent camp in 2000.
BTW, the shacks on the Intracoastal going south from Port Manny are mostly still grandfathered for a long time, and often available for more like $5K or so. If you're interested.
culero (could start watching)
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Originally posted by Lizking
snip
Here is a pic of the good old days back when the limits were a tad more generous, though the fishing is just as good now (mainly because of the limits):
Meat hog! :D
culero (OK, OK, I own a freezer, 'nuff said, just striking first before you said "bait weenie" ;))
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On a serious note:
Do you reckon the fishing's good mostly because of the limits, or mostly because the gill nets are gone?
culero (remembers the ugly days when GCCA was born)
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I am a founding member of the GCCA, and it is a combo of the gill nets and the limits. The nets took everything, and the lack of limits took the breeders.
I fish with bait if I have to, but I usually catch more with lures than the bait-breaths do with shrimp or croakers.
Here is a pic from the beach side, about 20 miles south of Mustang Island, we used to go camp down there and shark fish. Never got one to the beach, but we hooked some 10-15' monsters on 80w reels with 1500yds 130# braided dacron . They always broke off or stripped the reel. This guy took 6 hours to bring in, working in relays:
(http://www.lizking.com/stingray.jpg)
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Originally posted by Lizking
I am a founding member of the GCCA, and it is a combo of the gill nets and the limits. The nets took everything, and the lack of limits took the breeders.
snip
Ahhhh, you meant size limits. Roger that, I was thinking stringer limits (hey, you posted the meat pic ~G~)
OK, we agree there too.
I gotta hit the sack, getting up tomorrow morning to either hit the office and do some catchup work, or take the grandson to the livestock show. Decisions decisions :)
If you'll quit posting and e-mail me a phone number I'll call you from the car en la maņana about getting together to fish.
sleepyalero
PS - sting rays, hate 'em, there must be a few hundred out there with no tail because I have a sharp knife :p (Ever go flounder gigging? There's a great sand bar just a mile or so from the cabin, usually full of 'em.)
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I haven't done much gigging in Texas, but we used to do a lot in Mississippi. My cell is 512.585.1496, give me a call and lets set something up-the reds should be moving out of deep water soon, if not already.
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Damn.... I don't think this is what Steve had in mind.
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Well, Nash, it pretty much typifys the reaction to wets here in Texas-we all know it is a problem, but there really is no solution, so phuck it, let's go fishing.
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Here is an photo of the mouth of Baffin-the shack we were looking at was on the third "lump" of the long island(moving South), that is why it was so pricey:
http://www.texmaps.com/aerials/12baffin-bay/slides/302797454a.html
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I agree that the solution to illegals is to make it less attractive to cross the border. I would impose VERY heavy fines on employers who hired illegals and have a "waiting period" onm new hires of a day or 3 while documentation was checked out (like a gun waiting period).
Legal mexicans make great Americans.
lazs
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Kick them all out or make them all legal. They don't have a right to complain. The latter might be the easier option..
Traditionally you are giving very hard sentences to all kinds of criminals. At the same time you provide all kinds of services and even provide driving licences to illegals. That seems a little contradictory to me.
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mora... that makes no sense whatsover.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
mora... that makes no sense whatsover.
lazs
I know that the situation is not that simple, but the situation is just unbelievable from my perscetive. I would not want to see a single illegal in my country and those caught should be thrown out immediately. OTOH I don't have anything against a well argumented legal immigration.
I admit that I know little about the whole situation, but I would still say that you should legalize those who are in and not let a single illegal in after that. You could employ some the new legals as border guards.
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Culero, I wasn't trying to restart our old debate, since we really didn't disagree in the first place. You or someone mentioned that we should make healthcare affordable for the impoverished. The only way to do that is to throw money at the problem.
The people of CA are already doing so, to the tune of $1000.00 per person each year( each legal resident pays this for free healthcare for others). I feel the only way to get control is to close our borders, evict the illegals, AND make very harsh penalties for those who employ illegals.
Finally, I think Mexican nationals who wish to enter our country, work here, pay appropriate income tax, and abide by our laws, should be allowed to do so. I do not think they should be allowed to bring dependents with them, however. Not until they have acquired citizenship.
In my industry, the most common immigrant I run across is Romanian( they seem to flock to adult care home ownership). They enter the country legally and play by the rules. There's no reason others can't as well.
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mora... look at a map and at our society. we have a very long border and are very adverse to simply stopping people and asking for paperwork... Most Americans don't even know what a passport is. We can travel thousands of miles without ever leaving the country. A lot never do.
It is all but impossible to keep people from sneaking in or cathcing them once they are in.
My solution gets around that by simply making HUGE penalties for hiring illegals.... Every new hire in the states would have to go through a background check just like for firearms. Any employer found grossly negligent (accepting obvious phony papers)would be shut down or imprisoned.... just like the gun grabbers do to firearms dealers.
people would still sneak in but... once the word got around that there was no work and no benifiets.... they would simply stay home.
lazs
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Originally posted by Steve
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Culero, I wasn't trying to restart our old debate, since we really didn't disagree in the first place. You or someone mentioned that we should make healthcare affordable for the impoverished. The only way to do that is to throw money at the problem.
OK, but you're STILL wrong here. Well, at least wrong as I understand you to be meaning.
What I'm saying is that we should approach this problem by changing the way the system is structured in ways that encourage participation in payment for service by everyone who receives it.
I'm sure you'd agree that the way things are now, healthcare has a price tag that's beyond the means of some wage earners to pay for, right? Isn't the problem you cite (not only illegals, but citizens as well who need subsidy for healthcare) largely due to the fact that if you can't afford the whole bill, you must either find a free clinic or hit an emrgency room?
What I'm saying is:
1) Force insurance providers to allow "pool" participation by individuals that brings the cost of coverage closer to what large groups pay (you want to make $$$ on health insurance, quit trying to rape small customers, spread it out)
2) Offer a public subsidy that, instead of the "all or nothing" approach that exists now, encourages wage earners to pay for as_much_of their healthcare they can afford. Think perhaps long-term low-interest loans for catastrophic events (you may not collect all the debt, but hey some's better N none, eh?) and as last resort outright gift from public coffers.
If you'll think about what I'm saying, you'll see I'm realizing we're paying out our bungholes now (we know you agree here) but also realizing humans who need care are involved...so I'm trying to mitigate the cost in practical ways instead of saying "f*ck 'em let 'em die".
I agree with you, I don't wanna pay their tab either but hey, here we are. What's wrong with trying to make the tab smaller, by allowing them to pay what they can?
There's always more than one way to skin a cat. Mebbe if you start trying to innovate in positive proactive ways, you'll have better ideas than me.
culero
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Originally posted by lazs2
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people would still sneak in but... once the word got around that there was no work and no benifiets.... they would simply stay home.
lazs
Word.
Unless, of course, enough jobs then became un-filled that we needed to allow some to come, legally, and supply that demand/pay taxes while they do.
What a concept, eh? Free market capitalism cures many ills.
culero
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Unless, of course, enough jobs then became un-filled that we needed to allow some to come, legally, and supply that demand/pay taxes while they do.
This is what I'm talking about when I said:
Finally, I think Mexican nationals who wish to enter our country, work here, pay appropriate income tax, and abide by our laws, should be allowed to do so.
Isn't the problem you cite... .... largely due to the fact that if you can't afford the whole bill, you must either find a free clinic or hit an emrgency room?
I'm saying that if hospitals didn't have to bear the burden of illegals using the ER as a free clinic that hospital costs to people who actually pay would be significantly lower and would subsequently result in more people being able to afford proper care. This, coupled with tort reform on malpractice, could go a long way to lowering medical expenses and making medical facilities fiscally viable as opposed to "The brink of bankruptcy".
It's a tad off topic but who do you think pays for high malpractice insurance costs? Again, it all trickles down to the paying consumer.... you and I.
We have to close our borders to illegals and sweep illegals out of the country then almost start over. Only this, IMHO will really make the situation palatable to the tax payer.
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I agree with you, Steve, regarding the nature of the problem. I just believe the "sweep the illegals" idea is costly and unlikely to be effective. Think "War On Drugs".
I also believe that approach is unnecessary since drying up the bait for illegal immigration (illegal employers) would serve to do exactly as lazs said - remove their incentive to come here illegally, and/or stay illegally.
culero
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since drying up the bait for illegal immigration (illegal employers) would serve to do exactly as lazs said - remove their incentive to come here illegally, and/or stay illegally.
Perhaps, but I'm saying we should take both of these steps.
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I agree with you, Steve, regarding the nature of the problem. I just believe the "sweep the illegals" idea is costly and unlikely to be effective. Think "War On Drugs".
I also believe that approach is unnecessary since drying up the bait for illegal immigration (illegal employers) would serve to do exactly as lazs said - remove their incentive to come here illegally, and/or stay illegally.
Trust me on this: if you think most illegals come here for anything other than a chance for employment, you're ignorant of the relevant facts. That's not by way of insult, I'm just saying that because I know for sure that employment is the motivation of most illegals.
culero
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Originally posted by Steve
Perhaps, but I'm saying we should take both of these steps.
Dood, why would you want to punish poor people when its not necessary to do so in order to accomplish what you want?
Examine yourself a little, please.
culero
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oops, sorry for the double post
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Dood, why would you want to punish poor people
I want to punish criminals. Illegal aliens are criminals.
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Originally posted by Steve
I want to punish criminals. Illegal aliens are criminals.
That statement tends to persuade me you're too ignorant in general to comprehend what we're discussing.
Here's a clue: there are degrees to everything in life, and judgements to be made. For instance, in some states having oral sex with your wife in the privacy of your bedroom would make you a criminal. According to your statement, both of you would therefore deserve to go to jail if either went down on the other. That really makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?
I think what's at play here is that you resent Mexicans for who they are, and that's driving your thought on the issues. I feel sorry for you.
culero (out)
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Help out your poor neighbours. Help them achieve the same living standards etc that you have. They won't want to come no more illegal immigrants. Its a novel policy but you never know it might work. Cancel Foreign debt that might be a start. Start talking to Fidel you might help that nation out and learn a thing or two. Better living conditions in Cuba, fewer immigrants I would imagine. Like wise Mexico etc.
By the way help doesn't mean deciding what type of Gvt they should have and then imposing that upon them by military force blowing the Sh*t out of the place in order to achieve it, or supporting military juntas favourable to you, like in Chile, Bolivia, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Argentina etc, who then trample onthe rights of the people and set up dictatorships !
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Originally posted by Skydancer
By the way help doesn't mean deciding what type of Gvt they should have and then imposing that upon them by military force blowing the Sh*t out of the place in order to achieve it, or supporting military juntas favourable to you, like in Chile, Bolivia, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Argentina etc, who then trample onthe rights of the people and set up dictatorships !
Zulu you never cease to amaze me at the different angles you go about posting your antiAmerican views on an American hosted board. Not the coldest beer in the fridge comes to mind. :D
Cancel Foreign debt that might be a start. Start talking to Fidel you might help that nation out and learn a thing or two. Better living conditions in Cuba, fewer immigrants I would imagine.
ROFLMAO
Yea Fidel is such a likeable, reasonable individual. Pouring money and resources into a Communist, Russian puppet country is gonna be on the top of the "Things to do " list here in the U.S. Hell, if we were to give them enough cash we might even pay for the transporatation of the Russian missiles to be set up and aimed at us again.
Fidel has his own agenda. the Fidel agenda.
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except for the socialist know nothing tool skydancer... we all pretty much agree.. I really like the fact that he points at the U.S. while his country is far worse in every way. What is he doing to get his country helping all the downtrodden?
No.. we need to simply have a central check point and hireing waiting period like the federal 5 day waiting period for guns.
I believe that it would work in about 99% of the cases "sorry, no records that this person exists"
If we then needed a lobor force... temporary work visas could be issued under the same program. Employers caught (even beverly hills richn folk with illegal maids and landscapers) would get community time (say picking fruit) and a huge fine.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
If we then needed a lobor force... temporary work visas could be issued under the same program. Employers caught (even beverly hills richn folk with illegal maids and landscapers) would get community time (say picking fruit) and a huge fine.
lazs
:D That would be worth the passing of a bill such as this just for that. Free entertainment.
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Well I'm not holding up the UK as a paragon of virtue. We have an election coming and illegal immigration is a massive problem here too. And due to our forthcoming election its a big topic. Also this is a much smaller place than the US so it has a real impact on the lives of people here too. So yeah we actualy do have something in common here between the US and UK.
Immigration is usualy economic. People come here and to US Europe etc because we live well comparatively. They come here because they want a piece of that. Since historicaly the developed nations have ignored or actively exploited less developed nations it ought to be that we do more to support and help those countries develop now. We are rich they are poor. It is good sense to help your poor neighhbour become rich too. Then you negate the conditions which give rise to the immigration problem we have now.
That is a sensible long term strategy. Putting more obstacles in the way and building bigger walls will not help they will still keep trying and finding ways to get here.
Also those people leaving would be better off staying put and helping build the countries they are living in.
In fact by helping your neighbour you help yourself too. Anything else is short term and stoopid!
The Wall idea don't work. Just ask Eric Honneker! He tried to keep people in. We're trying to keep em out. Same issue different emphasis. Either way in the long term it was a failure leading to stagnation and ultimately collapse.
Oh and if you stopped this idiotic outdated embargo of Cuba and helped improve conditions there you might find your enemy becomes your freind! So no need for missiles aimed at the US eh?
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Oh and if you stopped this idiotic outdated embargo of Cuba and helped improve conditions there you might find your enemy becomes your freind! So no need for missiles aimed at the US eh?
Psssst Zulu. Cuba is a Russian puppet country. Get it? I doubt it.
Idiotic embargo of Cuba??? Fidel made his choice. It`s a "you made your bed, now sleep in it" situation.
We have helped finance, educate, build, supply more countries than any other country. Usualy they have turned around and stabbed us in the back, or I should say attempted to. A few changes are occuring and have been occuring in the last years. If a country shows need and a willingness to be a loyal friend, then we help. If not, as of late you are SOL. That`s the way it should be. I can only hope this trend continues even in a more progressive manner. It`s about time we take care of the U.S. 1st, then consider options elsewhere. A few countries are learning the hard way that if you screw with us, you have pizzed in your own Post Toasties. I, for one am smiling.
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Urm Maybe I'm living too much in the here and now but as I understand it Russia is no longer a communist dictatorship! So how exactly is Cuba a puppet/client state of Russia? And isn't Russia Mr Bush's freind in the perpetual global war on terror?
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Urm Maybe I'm living too much in the here and now but as I understand it Russia is no longer a communist dictatorship! So how exactly is Cuba a puppet/client state of Russia? And isn't Russia Mr Bush's freind in the perpetual global war on terror?
If you actualy believe any of that , then I have some ocean front property in Arizona I`d let ya have cheap.
Russia was put on a leash and will be kept there.
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Which dried up Ocean in Arizona is the property near!?;) :lol
I and many others not living in the past belive that I suspect!
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I think what's at play here is that you resent Mexicans for who they are, and that's driving your thought on the issues. I feel sorry for you.
Lol, now you fallen into the depths of stupidity. I'd throw you a line but... nahhh stay there.
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skydancer... it becomes more and more apparent that you know nothing of the U.S. Your socialist weepy view of the world is not helping either.
What you know about firearms could be added to what you know about illegal immigration in the U.S. and crammed into a thimble and still have enough room left to fit in all you know about the rest of the U.S. and it's citizens.
lazs
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I and many others not living in the past belive that I suspect!
Believe that you suspect what?
Zulu , most here are still trying to figure out which galaxy you think you are living in.
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Oh dear. You do have a very one sided view of the world! Ithink it goes something like this. Guns and everything America and American Citizens say = intelligent righteous and good.
Anything suggested by a BBs member outside the US = stupid nonsensical and bad.
What a closed minded dull little world you must live in. Nevermind I don't have to live there. Go on see if you can open yopur mind a little. It's fun you know and you might learn something. Of course you could try to enlighten me as to how wonderful, the version of America you guys constantly spout, is rather than resorting to the old waaaa waaa euro brit zulu you know nothing (insert insult) cr*p.
:rolleyes:
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Once again ....over and over you do this. Has it not registered on you yet that you keep flying that thinly veiled crap you are going to get shot down?
As to where I live. Yep, I live in the U.S. I`m damn proud to be an American and so is the vast majority. Your right, you don`t have to live here and you don`t live here .
I think it`s pretty obvious that you wished you did. At least your jealousy shines through like a beacon in the night.
It has nothing to do with a BBS member being Euro-Brit or from another planet. It has to do with YOU and your lame *** spewing of pure ole BS.
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If it gets you so angry why read it? You can always ignore it. Is it me or do some people on this board take it all way too seriously?
:rolleyes:
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Angry? I`m slightly amused at most.
Trying the ole "Please ignore me" thing again huh?
Get real. You are too much fun to slap around and you keep coming back for more. :D
Yea most Americans have pride in thier country. You will just have to deal with it I guess.
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Well thank god they are not all like you!
No doubt you are thanking god not all brits are like me ( or something similar )
So I guess on that we agree. As for slapping me about well I guess I'm happy that I give you something to do in here!
;)
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Originally posted by Skydancer
No doubt you are thanking god not all brits are like me ( or something similar )
No, I`m thinking God there is Nobody like you. :D
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Originally posted by Steve
Lol, now you fallen into the depths of stupidity. I'd throw you a line but... nahhh stay there.
Nice sidestep. The fact that you want to jail an entire class of people for simply being poor and wanting to earn an honest living bears out what I said. I note you avoid addressing that.
If you want to talk about stupid, your proposed solution is a great example of that. You whine about paying for sick people's hospital bills, yet recommend we spend even more housing them in our already overcrowded jails...probably forcing us to release other more dangerous criminals to make room. Great idea - if you like stupid ideas.
But the truth is I don't accept that you're stupid. That's why I suspect you're simply ignorant, of both what the people you're talking about are about, and about your own prejudices.
I was raised in an environment that taught me to be a bigot. But, I eventually overcame those influences as life taught me lessons. I'm not condemning you when I say you're prejudiced, I'm talking to you much as a recovered alcoholic might talk to a person he knows who has drinking problems. I know what prejudice is, and your opinions on this subject blaze the signs of it in neon, man. I say it again, examine yourself.
culero
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let me see if I got skydancer/zulu whoevers point right...
He believes that the U.S. should simply put all it's money into a big pool and then, after inviting every poor country that has ever managed to get a citizen accross our bourders... then we would simply give out free health care to everyone and split up all the wealth amountgst all the nations?
I say we start by giving british dental to cubans..
I say we then confiscate zulu/skydancers triumph and use it to power a generator in central mexico. Even if it only runs once in a while they will be better off right?
lazs
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:rofl A sense of humour. ( what a relief! )
Good suggestions lazs;) Actualy I got a Triumph I'm selling at the moment. Maybe The US could buy it on behalf of those people in Central Mexico!!!
:rofl
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Originally posted by lazs2
let me see if I got skydancer/zulu whoevers point right...
He believes that the U.S. should simply put all it's money into a big pool and then, after inviting every poor country that has ever managed to get a citizen accross our bourders... then we would simply give out free health care to everyone and split up all the wealth amountgst all the nations?
I say we start by giving british dental to cubans..
I say we then confiscate zulu/skydancers triumph and use it to power a generator in central mexico. Even if it only runs once in a while they will be better off right?
lazs
Heehee! There would probably also be a requirement that all citizens would have to meet in town square during the dark of the moon for propaganda readings while singing ancient Zulu tribal songs. :aok
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(http://www.irishshowbands.net/images/zulus.jpg)
Like these guys!?
;)
Are you sure you're not a member too?
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I think your post revealed who you really are zuly/skydancer... you don't want to do anything... you want to sell your worthless trumpet to us and have us then donate it to the poor.... why don't you just give everything you have to the poor?
You seem really good at telling other how much they should give... you or your country don't have the most altruistic attitude toward nations you have touched tho do you?
Who exactly do you think should pay for all your grandiose ideas? you?
lazs
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You whine about paying for sick people's hospital bills, yet recommend we spend even more housing them in our already overcrowded jails...probably forcing us to release other more dangerous criminals to make room. Great idea - if you like stupid ideas.
Nice try, but you're so busy being offended from your assumed moral high ground that you are missing my message entirely. Since you threw all civility out the window by calling me ignorant, listen up and read, dipshiit.
I want to close our borders, then I want to round up as many illegals as possible and arrest them, then I want to throw them over the fence. You use the term "honest living." There isn't a single illegal alien here earning an honest living... they're here illegally, get it?
Let me retype this for you, please read it carefully.
I think every person who wants to come here to work should be allowed to do so, providing they play by the rules. I think Mexican nationals that want to work here should have to go through a process to ensure that they are not a threat to national security/criminal. This process should be a thorough as is practical from a time/cost standpoint. I'm not talking gestapo stuff here, just enough to ensure they are not drug smugglers, etc. I welcome these people and wish them the best in the search for prosperity.
The immigrants should be entitled to use our resources, with exception of voting, just like any other tax paying person in our country. Employers should hire these people and afford them opportunities to purchase at least rudimentary health insurance.
Employers who violate the laws by abusing immigrants or hiring illegals should be decisively and quickly dealt with.
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Lazs
First off do you ever take things with a pinch of salt or are you serious all the time?
Second has it ever occurred to you that in both our countries there are some seriously wealthy people who live off the backs of people like you and me and outside our nations, the rest of the poor world! Maybe a small tax hike for them would help pay for some of it.
Besides you realy are not following my argument. Which in simple terms is that if we improve the lot of people in the countries they come from, there will be no economic impetus for them to come to our countries in the first place.
By helping them we also help ourselves as we will not end up expending money trying to repatriate them through failed asylum requests which cost fortunes in court fees, and we will not have to pay them benefits that we do at the moment, cover their health care etc etc. ( maybe this only happens in UK?)
In the long run it will be cheaper to help them at home than to have to waste the money once they come here illegaly.
Its a win win unlike the crazy situation that exists now.
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Why don`t you slide that by your country and see how it flys.
I don`t know where you keep coming up with this "we" stuff.
Our country has been there, done that more than any country on the face of the earth. It nearly always came back to bite us in the ***, or at least was tryed.
We sort of got a little leary of supporting our enemies and are now going in a new direction .
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Well I guess you'll have to spend more tax dollars on millitary equipment, higher fences, greater defences, to keep out all the undesirables and keep that ole war going then.
And you could have been spending em on healthcare education, helping your fellow man!
I know what I'd rather our Govt spent our taxes on. The long term solution not the idiotic short term solution of putting up the barricades and fighting wars.
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Like I said, slide it by "your" country and see if it flys.
Here in the U.S. the illegal situation will be handled in respect to it`s importance. A lot has been brought to light as of late and a whole lot will change.
No more Mr. nice guy, on your knees Biatch, so to speak.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Well I guess you'll have to spend more tax dollars on millitary equipment
Oh yea.. I nearly forgot.
I`m all for this. Have been all along. Some of our problems arose from the military cutbacks some years ago.
By building up military strength it has always helped our country in many ways. As side effects it produces more industry, more jobs, more businesses in general. It boosts the economy, reduces unemployment. It keeps youth crime down.
It also is a great deterrent.
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Jackal1 me old sparring partner. What would you do without me? Oh yeah go and spar with Siaf! :lol
Give me a school, hospital, etc etc over a bigger army any day. And No I don't want to live behind walls. I want to live where I can go where I like when I like, Oh thats the EU by the way. ( none of this VIsa crap here) And in order to preserve those rights I'd like to see other nations in the world brought up to similar standards so they can enjoy them too rather than feel the need to come here and use my rights! Africa would be a good place to start. They could do with a little help.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Jackal1 me old sparring partner. What would you do without me? Oh yeah go and spar with Siaf! :lol
Give me a school, hospital, etc etc over a bigger army any day. And No I don't want to live behind walls. I want to live where I can go where I like when I like, Oh thats the EU by the way. ( none of this VIsa crap here) And in order to preserve those rights I'd like to see other nations in the world brought up to similar standards so they can enjoy them too rather than feel the need to come here and use my rights! Africa would be a good place to start. They could do with a little help.
Hehe. Siaf was a has been before he ever became to be. He at least has enough sense to know when to get out of the mix when he gets in deep water.
I can`t and won`t even attempt to speak for your country. You can`t have an input in mine as much as you would like to think you can. We are not socialist nor communist, so your ideas just don`t fly here.
You give me a building up of our military on a large scale again and I can sho you many, many hospitals and many, many schools as a result. I can also show thousands upon thousands of new businesses and thousands taken from the unemployment list.
As far as Africa goes, I have saeen that mentioned various times here on the boards how we need to be in Africa. Newsflash. We have allready been there, done that and like I said it came back to bite us in the ***.
You cannot help those that have a different direction they wish to go. If a country is dead set on destroying itself, then there is not much anyone can do about it.
As far as the U.S. goes in wordly affairs and some of the outcomes we have seen with a lot of countries that play the part of being allies until it comes down to the nut cuttin, then turn their backs and run........those days are over with a capitol O.
I think it was made quite clear when this recently occured and the message was sent..... Last chance ..either get in the wagon for the full ride or you will be ignored.
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zulu... cry me a river! yeah... myu back is allmost broken supporting all those rich people... save it for the next red cell meeting bud.
I am the one staying on the subject... there is not enough wealth in the states to bring every country up to our standards so that we are all equal... Your arguement is nonsensical... and... you ride while other people in the world walk or crawl... when you have given everything so that you are an even basis with the poorest in the world then we will talk again... oh wait... then I won't be able to talk to you at all. win win as you say.
No... my idea is workable. It costs nothing and even reduces border patrol costs... It brings in money from those "rich" a holes you and your red cell mates hate so much too... win win
Simply fine and imprison anyone who hires illegals.. no medical other than emergency life saving. 5 day national waiting period for national background checks on anyone employed by anyone in the U.S. including landscapers and maids.
Want a maid? have her turn her papers in and fill out the forms at any EDD. wait five days and you got it... or, if you must have that soft boiled egg tommarow.... get an agency who has allready done the work to send you one.
Both of us use the same principle to solve the problem.... that of making it less desirable to illegaly cross the border... yours is touchy feely, unworkable commie crap and mine makes sense.... is the only difference.
Do mine and you get rid of the problem and.... you and your red cell group still have the option of wearing your $500 leather outfit and riding your $10,000 motorcyle to the protest gathering against the rich oppressors. I won't be attending tho. thank you very much.
lazs
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It cost me about $3500 actualy. But hey who's counting? ;)
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Originally posted by Skydancer
It cost me about $3500 actualy.
Well, ya see there? That`s a starting point that we can relate to right there?
Scrap iron prices are way down in our country also. :rofl
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:lol :lol :lol
You are relentless aren't you.
Wierd. Fundamentaly I think you spout a loud of cobblers. But then you think I do too.
There is a strange BBs symmetry going on here.
Now for the comeback, I'm a waitin!
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Originally posted by Skydancer
:lol :lol :lol
You are relentless aren't you.
What ya expect? I`m one of the evil , evil Americans.
If we let down even for an instant our quest to invade Canada will never come to be...........and I`ve got my eye on that Moosehead factory too.
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No.
You are not an evil American. Not all American's are evil.There is usualy a smattering of evil people in any population, in any country.
What you are though is a bloke who only reads the bits he wants to. Takes statements out of context and prefers insult to debate.
You also seem to be the kind of guy who these folks would love as you are too trusting and simple to realise that it is this group who actualy run your country. They have not been elected or voted in by you or anyone. They have appointed themselves and that bush fella is a puppet whose strings they can pull.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
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Originally posted by Skydancer
No.
You are not an evil American. Not all American's are evil.There is usualy a smattering of evil people in any population, in any country.
What you are though is a bloke who only reads the bits he wants to. Takes statements out of context and prefers insult to debate.
You also seem to be the kind of guy who these folks would love as you are too trusting and simple to realise that it is this group who actualy run your country. They have not been elected or voted in by you or anyone. They have appointed themselves and that bush fella is a puppet whose strings they can pull.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
What I am is the burr under your saddle.
What I read and understand is your lame, almost brainless attempts to bash the U.S. on a U.S. based board, then ya get bent out of shape because people don`t buy your load of poorly attempted, almost childish propaganda.
You also seem like a kid in a candy store when it comes to picking and choosing websites and taking things at face value at them. Are you new to the internet? If you are I can give you a hint. You can find just about everything imaginable placed on websites and touted as the truth. You seem to either believe they are actual facts or you at least get upset when you slide crap by and it`s not swallowed up hook, line and sinker.
Do you ever have any original thoughts of your own?
I`m gonna ask you again, and I doubt it will be answered this time as it has not been many times before.
Exactly what is your stake in the U.S. affairs? The reason I said "stake" is that it seems to be what you relate to as you have made the statement of "The U.S. is getting more out of it in return than us" or a reasonable facsimile.
Do you think everything is done as a capitol investment?
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Now maybe I may be mistaken but isn't that the official website of that particular Thinktank/US govt advisory body!?
As for my stake. Its my understanding that your current administration views itself as "the world's policeman" We all live in a world where US global dominance plays a very real role in our lives. It caused our stupid Govt to drag my country into a war. ( just one small example ) That's what i think gives me and everyone on this planet a stake in these matters.
I'd much rather not have that stake!
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Didn`t figure you would answer.
I think your country is losing a valuable asset by not having you share your views and wisdom on one of their boards.
Nice edit. I can do that too.
As for my stake. Its my understanding that your current administration views itself as "the world's policeman"
Don`t let this come as a shock to you, but we have been the "world policemen" for quite some time.
So........ what do you think your country has done that you need to fear the U.S.?
It caused our stupid Govt to drag my country into a war. ( just one small example ) That's what i think gives me and everyone on this planet a stake in these matters.
OK, so you think your government is stupid also. What government do you prefer then?
If you think your government is so much stupider than you, then why aren`t you taking your views to your own country to try to make changes.
By "it" in your statement I am assuming you are referring to the U.S. Is that correct.
If so, you don`t beleive your country is capable of making decisions on it`s own?
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Lets just say this, the Labour party who I have supported all my adult life have lost my vote. we have an election coming and I will vote for whoever has the best exit strategy from this mess in Iraq.
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Fair enough.
Now , you have claimed that beleive more fortunate countries such as your and mine should help less fortunate countries, right? I believe your point was to level the playing field so to speak.
So , what about the Kuwaitis and Iraqis?
Were we just supposed to leave them to the hands of an insane, murderous dictator?
They don`t count or what? I don`t get it.
Were in other countries fighting terrorist cells and tryin to prevent terrorist training, backing, etc.
So what about the countries, including yours and mine, that these terrorist attacks and kills,mames and disrupts.
Are we not supposed to do anything about this?
Do we stick our head in the sand and pretend it doesn`t exist and wait for more attacks, then say "Why didn`t someone prevent this?"
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this is so typical of the socialist pansy zulu... you want everyone else to give yet you want to be able to wide your widdle motorcycle in your widdle leather outfit.. rebel without a clue..
You offer no solution and can make no comment on mine yet you still insist that we should all... all what? you want us to somehow make mexico as economicaly viable as the U.S. You leave out all the minor little details like resources and politics tho.
My solution would work no matter how much you don't like it.. You don't like it because it lacks that free ride element that you and your red cell mates embrace.
As for your government... who cares? I don't want to know anything about it... And as for Bush.... Like over 50% of the voters here... I voted for him and it had nothing to do with the war... I voted for him because he was as far from socialism as any recent viable candidate has been...
I am quite happy with him and quite happy with the way the war is going. I would suggest that if you are not then you do something about your countries involvement from your end.
What you consider a socialist paradise I consider a living hell... england would probly be one of the bottom ten countries I would ever choose to live in.
lazs
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Jackal1
As far as I know we didn't have a massive immigration problem with Iraqis coming here. Life wasn't great I'm sure under Saddam. But then It's not realy that great for them now is it!?
We didn't have Iraqi terrorists threatening us before that invasion. Saddam's regime had nothing to do with 911 or Al Quaeda. Unlike Saudi Arabia! A country that still holds public executions, and is not a democratic nation! Or Kuwait a country that is not democratic and still sanctions a virtual form of slavery.
Yes by all means go get the perpetrators of terrorist attacks on your country. Just as we did and do in Northern Ireland and as you may have noticed I have made no comment on the attacks on Afghanistan. I have no issue with trying to decapitate the Al Quaeda organistaion and remove their base of operations in Afghanistan. But the war in Iraq achieved none of that. Our stupid Govt and yours got us into a situation which has only made the danger for us all worse. We have given the nutters another reason to attack us. Bad bad foreign policy.
Lazs
If I ride my bike or not it makes no difference to the worlds poor. Unlike governments cancelling foreign debt, or investing in AIDS treatment, or Sexual health education, or the infrastructure of poorer nations, or the education of poorer peoples etc etc etc.
How much could be achieved if we took all that money we spend on weapons etc and invested it in these things instead? You Don't need B2 bombers, Challenger or Abrahms battle tanks, nuclear submarines, to name but a few weapon systems, to fight terrorists.
One tiny small thing we can all do is buy fair trade goods! Like Chocolate Tea and coffee. Just and idea thousands of small gestures make one big one.
Now as for your comment on over 50% voting for Bush let me quote another BBs poster here
"you think more than half of the americans voted for bush? If I remember correctly, the total number of votes was against bush in the previous elections.
Not to mention that this is only of those who actually voted (not every one votes) - so the actual number of people who voted for bush is much less than 50% and therefore a minority vs. the not-voted for bush."
(thanks bozon)
Sorry to resurrect this one but its an interesting debate.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Jackal1
As far as I know we didn't have a massive immigration problem with Iraqis coming here. Life wasn't great I'm sure under Saddam. But then It's not realy that great for them now is it!?
Well the Iraqi immigration wasn`t what I was asking about, but yes, we do have immigrants from all over the world here.
Life wasn`t great for them under Saddam is a bit more than the understatement of the year. He was massively murdering his own people. Hell, he killed a lot of his own family. Yes, I would say their life is a lot. lot. even immesnely better now with a bright prospect for the future. I didn`t even mention the Kurds now did I?
OK, so we have found out that your leveling the field and helping less fortunate countries like you suggested earlier is at best selective. In other words you want them helped only when you think it might directly benefit you. That`s plain enough. You also wish for someone other than yourself or your country to do the "helping" when it comes down to it.
T typical.
We didn't have Iraqi terrorists threatening us before that invasion. Saddam's regime had nothing to do with 911 or Al Quaeda.
By "we" I`m assuming you mean your country. They are way more of a threat than you grasp. Saddam`s regime had a lot to do with 911 and Al Quaida. Terorist training, financial backing, weapons, intelligence shared, etc. Al Quaida now has openly pledged it`s support to continue it`s fight against us and to continue to fight for the return of a rule such as Saddam had.
Sticking your head in the sand and pretending it doesn`t exist only makes them stronger, gives them time to prepare more attacks and to build finances, resources, etc.
Personaly I`m proud to see it being taken care of at the root of the problem, instead of waiting to see more civilian citizens slaughtered on our own soil and waiting for the attacks to get worse and more terrible. Do you think by ignoring such things they will just go away. That is childish and quite frankly totaly chicken chit.
Yes by all means go get the perpetrators of terrorist attacks on your country. Just as we did and do in Northern Ireland and as you may have noticed I have made no comment on the attacks on Afghanistan. I have no issue with trying to decapitate the Al Quaeda organistaion and remove their base of operations in Afghanistan. But the war in Iraq achieved none of that.
The war in Iraq is serving several purposes. All good.
This is where you start back peadling and contradicting your own statements to suit what you think is best for you at any particular time. Old saying..you can`t have your cake and eat it too. You are trying to eat your cake and want someone else to keep you supplied.
Yea, I noticed you have made no comments of Afghanistan. That`s why I did. :D Once again you can`t pick and choose what suits only you. I`d go so far to say that so far you have tryed to blame everything that you consider a discomfort to you on someone else. namely the U.S. I`d also go so far to say that you really don`t give a damn about your own country. You only think of yourself, not what`s right for your country. Not what`s the right thing to do, but just YOU. As long as you can try to blame someone else for anything that doesn`t suit you, you are all set. I`d say you would make a piss poor countryman in any country.
Our stupid Govt and yours got us into a situation which has only made the danger for us all worse. We have given the nutters another reason to attack us. Bad bad foreign policy.
Our government didn`t get you into any damn thing. If you feel your government is wrong , work on it from that end. Quit blaming the U.S. because you are chicken chit. You`d be chicken watermelon with or without us. With or without your own government.
Only made matters worse huh? So you think by ignoring them, they would just stop because you want the bad men to go away? BS.
They didn`t need another reason to attack us. They had all the fuel they needed after 911. Attacks by now would have probably made 911 look like a walk in the park if something hadn`t been done. We are hitting them on their own turf. We are making things very, very uncomfortable for them. It`s hard to organize when you are constantly being hunted and getting the watermelon kicked out of you. The decision has been made that enough is enough and I`m damn proud of it.
You sir are a farce. A fake. You don`t have the backbone of a squid. You stand for nothing.
Were not interested in your BS socialists, quasi-commie BS either. I `m willing to bet the reason you have to come here to spew that antiU.S. crap is that you`d get the crap kicked out of ya if you tryed it in your country. I know you would here.
Quit blaming others because the world does not revolve around you.
Take your comments concerning the U.S. to your brothers at the next propaganda reading.
You don`t give a rat`s *** about other people or other countries. You only care for yourself and I don`t think you are very comfortable in your own company.
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You seem confused.
Are you saying you believe Iraq was behind 911?
Please don't tell me so.
I have no problems with taking out terrorists. But that isn't what the war in Iraq was about.
Osama is still at large and his organistaion still at work.Why? Because we diverted our attention to Iraq. A war that edidn't need fighting.
If our govts hadn't entangled us in Iraq we wouldn't have Al Quaeda plediging to fight us there. Why are Al Quaeda attacking us you might ask? Well maybe it has something to do with western forces being stationed in the Middle East. Why do we need troops in the Middle East? I can't see a reason unless its to ensure govts there do what we want. Colonialism by the back door?
Simple solution get out of dodge. Then The mad mullahs etc can sort themselves out. We are not serving the Wests interest by being tangled up in the middle east.
Now as for my stance on helping the poor of the world. If you read my thread properly you might see that i'm not exactly advocating it because i am some bleeding heart who will scarifice everything to help someone else. ( much as I admire those who do ) I actualy advocated the strategy because I think It is a sensible and more humane way of dealing with the Immigration problem we have here in the UK and the originator of this thread seems to think is a problem in the US. Make so that they don't want to come here because life there is OK and we have less of a problem. Most people don't care if they have a dictator or a democracy as long as there is food, healthcare, education, infrastructure etc etc and they can get on with their lives. And if they care enough they do something about it themselves. Look at eastern Europe.
Yes I will do something my end. I won't vote for the idiot who lied to us and got us entangled in the mess.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
You seem confused.
Are you saying you believe Iraq was behind 911?
Please don't tell me so.
I have no problems with taking out terrorists. But that isn't what the war in Iraq was about.
You wish I was as confused as you are, but no, I`m not a very good candidate for your BS indoctrination. Better dead than red. :D
Any where there is terrosrist training, funding and backing is our enemy at the moment and yes Iraq is damn sure one of them, but you allready know that. Your just looking for an easy way out where someone else carries the load and cures your little problems.
You have no problem with taking out terrorisats? I don`t imagine you do as long as someone else does it.
If our govts hadn't entangled us in Iraq we wouldn't have Al Quaeda plediging to fight us there. Why are Al Quaeda attacking us you might ask? Well maybe it has something to do with western forces being stationed in the Middle East. Why do we need troops in the Middle East? I can't see a reason unless its to ensure govts there do what we want. Colonialism by the back door?
So now it`s "our governments " eh? Changing your stripes again as usual.
If we hadn`t built the Twin Towers here, the gutless bastards wouldn`t have flew planes into killing civilians either. Is that the way you view things in your cowardly way? You don`t have to answer that one. I allready know the answer. Your a gutless wonder.
We , as in the U.S. needs troops in the middle east to do just what we are doing. Getting rid of wholesale murder and cutting the snake`s head off instead of kissing the snake`s *** as seems to be your theory.
Simple solution get out of dodge. Then The mad mullahs etc can sort themselves out. We are not serving the Wests interest by being tangled up in the middle east.
Yea, run, let the people there suffer and be killed. Return another insane, murderous dictator to power to be unleashed on the population again. Give free reign for terrorist training. Open the door for even more horror and act like it don`t exist. May be your solution as to be expected because , as I have said, it`s obvious you have no back bone and you made it clear that you give a damn less about anyone but yourself.
It don`t work like that here hoss. These colors don`t run.
Were not serving the west.? Just sit and wait. Let them continue building up strength, murdering , torturing and go about their merry, murderous way. Stick your head in the sand and act like it doesn`t exist. Some friggen solution you have there. So we`ll scratch the middle eastern people from your "help the world be a better place" farce. You don`t give a chit. Your a coward and you are putting it in text.
Now as for my stance on helping the poor of the world. If you read my thread properly you might see that i'm not exactly advocating it because i am some bleeding heart who will scarifice everything to help someone else.
Oh, I`m reading you properly there Red Boy. You wish to sacrifice nothing. You were only talking BS. You won`t someone else to do it. As long as someone else does it , it`s fine. The world according to Zulu. :D
Most people don't care if they have a dictator or a democracy as long as there is food, healthcare, education, infrastructure etc etc and they can get on with their lives. And if they care enough they do something about it themselves.
That is possibly the most assinine statement you have made so far. Yea, everyone is just happy as a peach watching their family members get killed one by one, having everything they work for all their lives taken from them and living with an axe over their head until they die.
With that reasoning you could safely say that WWII was totaly uncalled for. Maybe we should have left Hitler alone and he would have went away. With your reasoning we could have said ..Hell, let the Jewish people break out of the concentration camps and do something about it themselves. Guess they could have taken control and kicked the living crap out of Hitler`s Nazis.
You are a total moron.
Yes I will do something my end.
Yea, you will do something on your end allright. You will sit on it and continue to whine and moan while blaming someone else with the worlds problems.
I haven`t seen someone back pedal so much , bob and weave, try to balance and still come out falling on their *** since I was a kid at the circus watching a drunk performer trying to ride a unicycle on a tight wire.
You should have been a zebra with interchangeable stripes. One stripe would still remain constant though. The yellow one extending the length of your back.
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geeze zulu/skydancer... get a grip. The question was how to stop illegal immigration. I gave a simple and workable solution that you have yet to admit to.
You gave a pie in the sky touchy feely solution that may or may not work in a bunch of decades... more likely any money spent the way you suggest would just line the pockets of crooked politicians in those countries and the scum bag U.N. with no improvement in conditions for the people. You simply refuse to admit that my solution makes more sense so far as getting the job done.
Now you go on about Bush... Over 50% of the voters wanted him... the rest simply don't care as evidenced by their lack of participation. If pressed... they probly would be just like everyone else and be 50% or better for Bush. Get over it.. we like him. I feel relieved that he is in and that we are that much safer from socialist busybodie nannies trying to interfere in everyones lives.
Idon't know if our army is a deterent or not but we certainly need to have some standing force and to fund it in case some new euro nutjob starts another world war as they are wont to do every half a century or so.
lazs
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Urm Jackal1 What are you doing about all these things you feel so strongly about? aside from sitting on your backside typing out a string of thinly veiled insults and redneck tosh of course!
Don't we elect politicians and see them earn far more than we, to do this stuff. Now If I was the chancellor of the exchequer, the PM or the foreign minister maybe I could do something. But I'm not so I do what I can and vote for those I think will best represent me.
So why aren't you out there in Iraq like rambo with an M60 in each hand bringing peace and stability to the region. Oh yeah probably because you are a regular guy like me with an opinion who enjoys the discussion!
:lol :lol :lol
lazs.
I never said your solution wouldn't work. ( at least I don't think I did ) i simply think we need to look at long term solutions as the walls we build and stricter border control etc only have a limited effect and in the end fail if the pressure put on them is enough.
Happy easter to you both by the way:aok
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skymincer.... I never said anything about building walls. My plan does away with walls. I have no problem with helping them with free trade... I have a problem with funneling money into the hands of their corrupt politicians or ultra sleazy groups like the U.N.
lazs
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Urm Jackal1 What are you doing about all these things you feel so strongly about? aside from sitting on your backside typing out a string of thinly veiled insults and redneck tosh of course!
Geez slick, are you friggen blind also. If you think those insults were veiled, then get your eyes checked. I can`t make them any plainer in text. I call a spade a spade..or in your case a joker a joker.
What do I do? The same damn thing I`ve been telling you to do in YOUR country.
If I think something needs changing or is not right , I get involved in any way possible. It`s my country. I am a part of it. I am damn proud to be an American.
Tell ya what I don`t do. I don`t start sniveling and whining like you do when the chips are down and we have troops in combat situations. I support my country. I support our troops to the fullest extent.
I take part in any way I possibly can when help is needed. I speak my piece and make my voice heard. I do my part localy when people needs help. I do what I can do, no matter what. When I believe in something, it`s pretty hard to stop me.
Don't we elect politicians and see them earn far more than we, to do this stuff. Now If I was the chancellor of the exchequer, the PM or the foreign minister maybe I could do something. But I'm not so I do what I can and vote for those I think will best represent me.
Nobody, absolutely nobody can do anything without the support or the input of the people they are put in place to serve. You damn sure don`t have a problem here making comments about my country, which you have proven you know less than jack watermelon about, and putting forth what you propose to be ALL the answers. You don`t have a problem coming to a U.S. based board and putting forth what you consider is all wrong about the U.S. (even as totaly lame and uninformed as they have been).
You should be working on what you consider is wrong with your country by getting involved, but instead you come here to bash the U.S. and share your lack of wisdom on what is wrong with us. Like I said you want everything done, you just want someone else to do it. I have no problem believing voting is all you do, if you even do that.
So far every thread you have gotten involved in here, in a very short time , YOU prove yourself a wannabe and a very uninformed one at that.
Get involved or you don`t deserve the right to critique the actions of your own country, not to mention mine.
So why aren't you out there in Iraq like rambo with an M60 in each hand bringing peace and stability to the region.
If I could be in Iraq or Afganistan bud, I would have allready been gone like a wild goose in winter.
Oh yeah probably because you are a regular guy like me with an opinion who enjoys the discussion!
If I ever consider myself even remotely like you I will save the world the trouble and find a dark hole to climb into. People like you aren`t my favorite things in life.
If you have had anything resembling a discussion , I must have missed it.
When it come to throwing around the idea of immagration control , your best shot was to suggest talks with Fidel friggen Castro and to make happy all in Havanaland. If you had any clue about how totaly ridiculous that was you would watermelon a brick. :D
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Well I've come to one conclusion. You have no bloody idea how to respond in a civilised manner.
I guess you get a kick out of acting like some internet hardman. Typing out your insults and personal attacks and passing them off as legitimate points. You look like a sad fool to me. I sure hope you don't respond to people you might disagree with in real life like you do in here, because if you do I should think you lose a lot of freinds fast.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Well I've come to one conclusion. You have no bloody idea how to respond in a civilised manner.
LMAO Here we go again . You do realize, I assume, that every time you have gotten your *** in a crack so far you have all of sudden decided to revert to this. It`s called hiding ya wimp.
After you got nailed on all the anti U.S. crap over and over, you come up with the whine that you just wanted a debate. In other words, you didn`t like being proven ignorant on the statements you had made and had been proven as such, so all of a sudden you wanted to get "cilvilized" in a debate. Then when engaged in a debate, you shuffled, danced for a couple of posts until you were asked the questions that prove your previous statements were all BS. You then proceeded to bail from that thread , not answer the questions, then wait until someone made the first anti U.S. statement, then bail back in with a one liner that amounted to... "Yea, yea, what he said." . You wish for no debate nor discussion. The reason being you are not capable of nor do you have the knowledge for either. You are just wishing that someone would buy into your anti U.S. crap. Anyone, makes no difference to you. Now that`s sad slick with a capitol S. (not to mention totaly hilarious) Snivel on someone elses shoulder about not being treated "civilized". When you come in here bashing my country, whining, spewing, rattlin your gums about something you have absolutely no friggen clue on, I don`tknow how you could expect to be anything but biatch slapped.
You have even proven that you are a total blank when it comes to your own country.
Put down the indoctrination handbook. You can`t comprehend what it`s saying anyway..
Like I said, I call a spade a spade and in your case a joker a joker.
I guess you get a kick out of acting like some internet hardman. Typing out your insults and personal attacks and passing them off as legitimate points. You look like a sad fool to me. I sure hope you don't respond to people you might disagree with in real life like you do in here, because if you do I should think you lose a lot of freinds fast.
Guess would be your best effort. At least the best one you have shown so far Red Boy.
I don`t think you can be insulted. I don`t believe you have enough grasp on reality to absorb the fact.
In real life I treat people just as I treat them here. If they start bashing my country when they haven`t got a clue what they are spewing, such as you, they get nailed.
As far as losing friends over it, I don`t have that problem. I have never befriended any morons, such as yourself.
Now........ either go to your meeting and take the pledge , bail out, or go work on your own country`s problems.
If you get them all worked out, then come back and fill us in.
Any credit you had at the start here was the unknown. You have very rapidly cured that by proving yourself totaly ignorant on all subjects you have attempted to turn into a U.S. bash, arming yourself with absolutely no knowledge of any subject so far.
So................ now you are left with zilch, nada, nothing. Enjoy.
When you work out your own country`s immagration problems, we`ll send you down to have tea with Castro. :D
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I give up. Civility is beyond you so I'll use language you understand.Jackle1 its quite obvious you are a sad fugger who lives out your macho fantasies on this BBs. Your only joy in life seems to be in picking whover doesn't bow down and feed your pathetic arrogant ego, and brow beating them with your complete bullsh*t. As for being a basher of the US have you actualy read any of the Sh*t that you type about the UK or Europe. You are an ignorant F***wit. Be gone from my life bellybutton (thing in the middle of a polo )
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skymincer.... you don't not only respond to jaklal... you don't respond to anyone. You may give an essay on auras and karma once in a while and chastise anyone who doesn't do what you consider PC but.... when challenged...
you fold like a cheap card table under a fat lady.
lazs
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Lazs2 You do dot resort to the kind of Cr*p that That fella resorts too.
Therefore Yes I will respond to you but I'm tired of every time I join a discussion on this board that fella pops up and starts mouthing off. Spouting personaly insulting crap. Nobody else seems to feel the need to resort to such bull, so no probs there. It feels like Jackal1 has some wierd internet fixation with me. Of course I'm not dumb enough to think that everyone is going to agree. But it would be nice if people read the bloody posts properly and could respond in turn wihout resorting to "amerihater, eurotard, ghey, blah blah blah bloody blah" Honestly it seems like a little boys playground where you go pick on the different guy and bully the **** out of him albeit verbaly, its is a sad sack of crap when grown adults can't express themselves without that nonsense
Why did I come back with a new identity because that pillock continualy fixated on the old one just like now and was frankly a bloody rude a**hole.
So enough of him and no probs with the rest of you! Hope the holliday weekend is going well.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I give up. Civility is beyond you so I'll use language you understand.Jackle1 its quite obvious you are a sad fugger who lives out your macho fantasies on this BBs. Your only joy in life seems to be in picking whover doesn't bow down and feed your pathetic arrogant ego, and brow beating them with your complete bullsh*t. As for being a basher of the US have you actualy read any of the Sh*t that you type about the UK or Europe. You are an ignorant F***wit. Be gone from my life bellybutton (thing in the middle of a polo )
Well, I believe I have allready told ya a few times that I could care less what an idiot`s opinion of me is. Read that as you.
I`ll give ya this much...I can cetainly see where anything resembling macho to you would curl your lace panties. It doesn`t matter where you are at , you are still defined as a wuss. I hate limp wrist whiners such as yourself.
As for being a basher of the US have you actualy read any of the Sh*t that you type about the UK or Europe.
Once again you prove that you are totaly lost and wrapped up in stupitidy.
Read this very carefully and maybe, just maybe it might get through to you. I could give a rat`s *** less about the affairs of the U.K. or Europe.
Now give it a rest. It`s Easter, moron.
Knowing that I am wasting my breath I`ll repeat it for you since it seems you are too dense to grasp anything on the first lap. You have no credibility here. You blew that all on your own.
No one here is going to buy into the lame "Big Ole Bully Jackal won`t have a conversation and is pickin on l`il ole me" horse biscuits. You have bailed on every thread and conversation you have been in to date when it became obvious that someone allready had or was about to prove one of your brilliant points less than knowlegable. You then wait until someone makes what appears to you as an anti U.S. statement, at which time you attempt to latch onto their apron strings and hang on. Even then you get left on your face in the kitchen floor holding your breath , kickin and screaming.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Why did I come back with a new identity because that pillock continualy fixated on the old one just like now and was frankly a bloody rude a**hole.
Friggen hilarious.
Pssst......... here`s your sign.
Hit the search button at the top of the page. Type Zulu7 in the litttle box and hit search.
Geeeeez....it says Persona Non Grata.
OK, now do the same for Americon. Well I`ll be.........it says Persona Non Grata also.
You came back with a new ID...no make that 2 new IDs because you were booted and banned under the old ones.
You think maybe it was because you were having the text temper tantrums when your anti U.S. BS was getting nailed to the wall and you couldn`t handle it without going off into outer space? You think? :rofl
Just because you are not the coldest beer in the fridge, don`t think for a minute that everyone else is brain dead also.
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skymincer... I was being speciofic and I believe that it your style to throw a bomb in the form of some lefty empty headed post and then get all pouty when anyone calls you on it... you become nonresposnive in that your reply is rarely on subject (british debating style I assume).
You are never specifc and rearely have any real facts or grasp of the subject. you tend to be dishonest about your handle until cornered and all pouty and full of blame when caught... it is never your fault. You want to insult but cry when insulted back..
Now you appear to be blaming jakal for all your problems here.
lazs