Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: weazel on January 14, 2003, 04:42:09 PM
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Boy's parents want teacher fired in pledge flap.
Lakeport eighth-grader punished for not saluting flag, mother says.
January 8, 2003
By UCILIA WANG (http://www.pressdemocrat.com/local/news/08pledge.html)
The parents of a Lakeport middle school student Thursday will ask the school board to fire a teacher who told the student to leave the classroom for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
Victoria Kearney said she will ask the Lakeport Unified School District board to dismiss David Laven because she is dissatisfied with the district's handling of her complaint about Laven's treatment of her son, Jim Woodbury.
Laven told Woodbury to stand outside the classroom when he wouldn't say the Pledge of Allegiance in his U.S. history and constitution class last semester.
"We are appalled that this can go on in the school," Kearney said. "My son's rights were violated. We are trusting that the Constitution is behind us on this."
Woodbury, an eighth-grader, said he refused to say the pledge because of his political beliefs.
"I believe the flag is a symbol of the government, and I think it's corrupt and I don't agree with some of the choices it made," he said.
After investigating Kearney's complaint, district Superintendent John Burke decided in December to send a warning letter to Laven.
Burke said in his written response to Kearney's complaint that students cannot be compelled to stand or recite the pledge. Pupils also should not be left outside of the classroom unsupervised, he added.
Laven didn't return calls seeking comment. But Laven told Burke during Burke's investigation that Woodbury was disruptive and tried to incite other students not to say the pledge, according to Burke's written report.
Kearney disputed Laven's claim. She contended that when her son presented a packet of information about students' rights to refuse to say the pledge, Laven threw the materials into a trash can and said he didn't care what the law is.
Burke declined to comment further on the issue, saying information about a teacher's job performance or a student's conduct is confidential.
The school board is scheduled to consider Kearney's request in closed session. The board could uphold Burke's decision or decide to look into the issue further.
California law requires students to participate in patriotic exercises daily, and saying the pledge meets that requirement. But the state Department of Education also has told school districts that saying the pledge is not mandatory.
A landmark 1943 U.S. Supreme Court case, West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette, established that students cannot be compelled to recite the pledge.
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they should invoke the sedition act on his arnold
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lemme see now... i wont pledge allegence to the flag ,but i want protection for MY constutitional rights............
translation....i hate this damm country, but i want all the protections the constution gives it's people...
am i close here??
44MAG
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DETH TO AMREEKA!!!
DETH TO GREAT SATAN BOSH!!!
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mandatory blind allegiance to a textile is stupid.
meritoriously won allegiance to that same textile is quite wholesome.
s@dd@m & k¡m j°ng il|in' have mandatory blind allegiance to their respective symbolic textiles.
you think we should be more like them?
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The student obviously came prepared to disrupt class that day...
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Weasel needs to practice a bit more on his German.
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That damn GW! This never would have happen if he wasn't Pres.
I'm with you on this one weaz yup Bush's fault all the way....yup yup burn the MF......He probably told the kid to cause problems....yeah I see it now....:rolleyes:
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I say they make the kid stand outside the country while they exercise the Constitution.
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Originally posted by funkedup
DETH TO AMREEKA!!!
DETH TO GREAT SATAN BOSH!!!
hehe, I keep LMAO everytime I see this.:)
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why is it when people exercise their rights as an American they are labled 'unAmerican'? I find people who let their or others rights be violated much more unAmerican than your average trouble maker.
this little dipshit has a right to not do the pledge. he has a right to be treated with respect and common curtesy inspite of his decision. no matter how much you want to slap him, he is within his rights as an American. and he has a better grasp on what it is to be an American than this teacher who thinks people should be punished or ostracized for expressing their beliefs.
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From what I can gather based on this blurb, the teacher has asserted that the student was disruptive. Fundemental concepts of administrative law provide the teacher with certain rights of due process in disciplinary matters that some of you are choosing to ignore in your haste to join the hysteria.
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Give him a free ticket to whatever country he would prefer to live in.
Shuckins
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AP wire June 2002:
"Given a blank map of the United States, one in three fourth-graders can't find their state and mark it with an X."
It seems to me that teachers could be doing more productive things with what little class time they have.
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lemme see now... i wont pledge allegence to the flag ,but i want protection for MY constutitional rights............
translation....i hate this damm country, but i want all the protections the constution gives it's people...
am i close here??
no johnny..you aren't even close. Freedom is also for people you dont agree with.. refusing to say the pledge has nothing to do with how you feel about the country. I refuse to say the pledge..I won't praise your imaginary friend you call god. It certainly doesn't make me less of an American than you or someone whom invokes their version of their god.
freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion.
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Too many liberals on this board now...
Makin me sound ........ ordinary.
What apathy said BTW.
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Just because he didn't recite the pledge doesn't mean someday he may not be fighting for the constitution.
Reciting the pledge and waving a flag doesn't make you more American than this kid... it doesn't make you more anything except obnoxious when you think every one in America needs to do it or else they aren't American.
-SW
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
I say they make the kid stand outside the country while they exercise the Constitution.
Please show me where in the Constitution the passage of any citizen having to pledge allegience.
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Originally posted by H. Godwineson
Give him a free ticket to whatever country he would prefer to live in.
Shuckins
Why in the world should he move? He is exercising his basic rights and freedoms. Trust me that American Democracy will not fall just because a few citizens decide that they wish not to pledge allegience to the flag.
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"I believe the flag is a symbol of the government, and I think it's corrupt and I don't agree with some of the choices it made," he said.
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Kearney disputed Laven's claim. She contended that when her son presented a packet of information about students' rights to refuse to say the pledge, Laven threw the materials into a trash can and said he didn't care what the law is.
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Of the above two statements, which do you feel is the more dangerous position (for American Democracy) for one to take?
1) One exercising his rights?
or
2) One not caring what the law is?
Not a good thing for a teacher to demonstrate to the students that they shouldn't have to care what the law is.
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"Kearney disputed Laven's claim. She contended that when her son presented a packet of information about students' rights to refuse to say the pledge, Laven threw the materials into a trash can and said he didn't care what the law is."
Heil Chimpler! :D
Keep up the fight Saburo.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
why is it when people exercise their rights as an American they are labled 'unAmerican'? I find people who let their or others rights be violated much more unAmerican than your average trouble maker.
this little dipshit has a right to not do the pledge. he has a right to be treated with respect and common curtesy inspite of his decision. no matter how much you want to slap him, he is within his rights as an American. and he has a better grasp on what it is to be an American than this teacher who thinks people should be punished or ostracized for expressing their beliefs.
Ok, who are you and what happened to capt. apathy?!
Hehe S!
"this little dipshit has a right to not do the pledge. he has a right to be treated with respect and common curtesy inspite of his decision."
Hehe ;)
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Help me understand, a history teacher, maybe a bit over zealous in his/her patriotism should be fired for sending a student out of the room for refusing to say the pledge of allegiance? Who's over reacting here?
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no but there should be some form of disciplinary action for civil rights violations.
btw- in every school I attended (we moved a lot, so I have a fairly wide frame of reference) the history teachers also taught civics. he should have known better.
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Originally posted by john9001
lemme see now... i wont pledge allegence to the flag ,but i want protection for MY constutitional rights............
Not pledging allegiance to the flag is a protected constitutional right. It's amazing that you're unable to see this.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Well, I guess we don't want our teachers passing on any of their values or morals to our kids do we?
What we really need are sterile, uniform, state designed cirriculum fed to them by unbiased computers, right?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Help me understand, a history teacher, maybe a bit over zealous in his/her patriotism should be fired for sending a student out of the room for refusing to say the pledge of allegiance? Who's over reacting here?
I would label the history teacher a fanatic, not a patriot. I personally don't feel the teacher should be fired, just edjucated about the laws that he should abide by. I consider the 8th grader to be more of an American patriot than the teacher. He is exercising his rights. The teacher was breaking the law/regulations.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Well, I guess we don't want our teachers passing on any of their values or morals to our kids do we?
What we really need are sterile, uniform, state designed cirriculum fed to them by unbiased computers, right?
What values? That it is okay to disregard laws we don't agree with? I personally would like our kids to be taught the values of respect. Respect of others, the laws, the Constitution, etc.
The teachers are there to teach about the subject the class is there for. Leave the teaching of 'morals' for the parents.
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Here's a simple Constitutional test for you all:
Is it lawful for one to burn the American flag in protest of what ever they're protesting?
Not saying one cannot, or should not feel angry about a protester's actions of flag burning, but is it legal?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
What values? That it is okay to disregard laws we don't agree with? I personally would like our kids to be taught the values of respect. Respect of others, the laws, the Constitution, etc.
The teachers are there to teach about the subject the class is there for. Leave the teaching of 'morals' for the parents.
Since when is it illegal to say the "Pledge of Allegiance" in school? Since when is it illegal for a teacher to send a disruptive student out of class?
Ok, so you would prefer the computers, you may get your wish.
Time to turn the "Sig Heil" around on you libs.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Here's a simple Constitutional test for you all:
Is it lawful for one to burn the American flag in protest of what ever they're protesting?
Not saying one cannot, or should not feel angry about a protester's actions of flag burning, but is it legal?
Not in school it isn't.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Weasel needs to practice a bit more on his German.
Ja sind unsere Kinder in guten Händen.
I would prefer "Na, sind unsere Kinder in guten Händen?"
but it's quite ok like it is .
Regards Blitz :)
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Originally posted by AKIron
Well, I guess we don't want our teachers passing on any of their values or morals to our kids do we?
How would you feel about a teacher teaching your kids that it was moral to burn the flag, or that it was immoral to join the military?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
How would you feel about a teacher teaching your kids that it was moral to burn the flag, or that it was immoral to join the military
Are you suggesting that they don't? Of course they do, maybe not in elementary school.
I'd rather kids learn from teachers with the same values as mine but it's foolish to believe that kids won't be influenced by the values of people they're around many hours of the day.
Maybe this kid learned something from this. Maybe he learned that some people, probably unlike his parents, have strong convictions that support for one's nation is essential if it is to endure.
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But Iron... blind support for a nation's government is not going to help the nation survive... but will lead to the government becoming to powerful and possibly lead the nation to it's knees.
Nazi Germany is the best example of that.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKIron
Since when is it illegal to say the "Pledge of Allegiance" in school? Since when is it illegal for a teacher to send a disruptive student out of class?
Ok, so you would prefer the computers, you may get your wish.
Time to turn the "Sig Heil" around on you libs.
Never said it was illegal to say the Pledge of Allegience. It is illegal to force students that wish not to pledge to pledge. I hardly find that a student refusing to stand and recite the pledge along with others is grounds for being "disruptive." The teacher could very well have let the non-pledging student just sit there silently (while the student exercised his right, mind you), while the rest of the class pledged. The class would have moved on to the lesson at hand. The teacher had to be a fanatic about "teaching" that student about his "morals" that it was the teacher, not the student that was disruptive.
The mindset of the teacher, reminds me of the times of Stalin, Hitler, McCarthyism, etc.
The ideal that one cannot dissent I find very unamerican and unpatriotic. Good thing our founding fathers had the foresight to dissent.
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If you guys could just see the toejam that teachers call the cops on kids for nowadays. A fight at school amongst 13 year olds is a Class 6 felony. Schools don't punnish anymore, they let the courts do it for them. Tempest in a teakettle.
:rolleyes:
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quote
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Since when is it illegal to say the "Pledge of Allegiance" in school? Since when is it illegal for a teacher to send a disruptive student out of class?
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he wasn't origanaly sent from the room for 'disruptive behavior', the origanal charge was-
"Laven told Woodbury to stand outside the classroom when he wouldn't say the Pledge of Allegiance in his U.S. history and constitution class last semester. "
and if you read the article you would see many violations of school regulations, constitutional law, and basic decency-
school reg. violation-
"students cannot be compelled to stand or recite the pledge. Pupils also should not be left outside of the classroom unsupervised"
constitutional law violation-
"A landmark 1943 U.S. Supreme Court case, West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette, established that students cannot be compelled to recite the pledge." I would assume this would include not only direct punishment, but also compelling them by singling them out or making them leave the class
basic decency-
"when her son presented a packet of information about students' rights to refuse to say the pledge, Laven threw the materials into a trash can and said he didn't care what the law is."
this man is a profesional teacher, he should know the rules and regs of his school.
he teaches a class on 'US history and constitution', he should be familiar with his subject matter.
and anybody who will not even look at the evedence compiled by the student shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a class on the constitution.
if I was a teacher, teaching about the constitution, I would be thrilled that a kid used the constitution, investigated his rights, and compiled evidence. the hell with disceplining him the kid deserved extra-credit for his additional homework
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Never said it was illegal to say the Pledge of Allegience. It is illegal to force students that wish not to pledge to pledge. I hardly find that a student refusing to stand and recite the pledge along with others is grounds for being "disruptive." The teacher could very well have let the non-pledging student just sit there silently (while the student exercised his right, mind you), while the rest of the class pledged. The class would have moved on to the lesson at hand. The teacher had to be a fanatic about "teaching" that student about his "morals" that it was the teacher, not the student that was disruptive.
The mindset of the teacher, reminds me of the times of Stalin, Hitler, McCarthyism, etc.
The ideal that one cannot dissent I find very unamerican and unpatriotic. Good thing our founding fathers had the foresight to dissent.
Are you saying then that the teacher was lying? Read it again, didn't the teacher say that the student called for others in the class to refuse the pledge? Is that not disruptive?
That you would assume so much and ignore the evidence in favor of a teenaged dissident tells me much about your character.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Are you saying then that the teacher was lying? Read it again, didn't the teacher say that the student called for others in the class to refuse the pledge? Is that not disruptive?
That you would assume so much and ignore the evidence in favor of a teenaged dissident tells me much about your character.
Perhaps it is you that should read a bit more. What you think of my character I couldn't care less. BTW, look at yourself in the mirror before you start claiming others of "assuming" things.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
he wasn't origanaly sent from the room for 'disruptive behavior', the origanal charge was-
"Laven told Woodbury to stand outside the classroom when he wouldn't say the Pledge of Allegiance in his U.S. history and constitution class last semester. "
The written report cites that he was disruptive.
I won't argue that the teacher was upset by the refusal and that that was probably paramount in his mind. Nontheless, I believe the direction to leave the room was probably because of the disruption by the kid. Why would the teacher lie about something that is so easy to verify. Not like the punk was the only student in the room.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Perhaps it is you that should read a bit more. What you think of my character I couldn't care less. BTW, look at yourself in the mirror before you start claiming others of "assuming" things.
So typical of you Saburo, argue without refuting, don't know why I waste the effort.
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todays kids are wimps, back in my day if a kid refused to say the pledge, we would have just beat him up after school.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Why would the teacher lie about something that is so easy to verify. Not like the punk was the only student in the room.
Perhaps because his job might be on the line? Oh no, no one would ever lie.
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Originally posted by AKIron
So typical of you Saburo, argue without refuting, don't know why I waste the effort.
LOL, stop it!! LOL! You are too funny :rolleyes:
We're not even on the same page, I'll leave it at that.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Perhaps because his job might be on the line? Oh no, no one would ever lie.
As I said, lots of witnesses. Or do you think they'll all lie too, probably a Republican plot right? Never mind, don't bother to answer.
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Originally posted by john9001
todays kids are wimps, back in my day if a kid refused to say the pledge, we would have just beat him up after school.
You would beat up a kid for exercising his Constitutional rights? Cripes, who is "we", you and your Hilter Youth group?
SaburoS, AKIron, you're both poo-poo heads. :p
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Originally posted by AKIron
As I said, lots of witnesses. Or do you think they'll all lie too, probably a Republican plot right? Never mind, don't bother to answer.
This isn't a Republican thing nor a Democrat thing, not a liberal thing or a conservative thing. It is an American Constitution, and law abiding thing. Too bad you don't see it.
Lots of witnesses? Sure there were. So how come:
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After investigating Kearney's complaint, district Superintendent John Burke decided in December to send a warning letter to Laven.
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After:
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Laven didn't return calls seeking comment. But Laven told Burke during Burke's investigation that Woodbury was disruptive and tried to incite other students not to say the pledge, according to Burke's written report.
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Again perhaps it is you that is assuming things.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
You would beat up a kid for exercising his Constitutional rights? Cripes, who is "we", you and your Hilter Youth group?
SaburoS, AKIron, you're both poo-poo heads. :p
Hehe, yup I can be at times ;)
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Laven didn't return calls seeking comment. But Laven told Burke during Burke's investigation that Woodbury was disruptive and tried to incite other students not to say the pledge, according to Burke's written report.
Because he's being investigated, believe it or not... in order to have a real investigation you don't tell jack toejam to the media, cuz they are a bunch of tards.
After investigating Kearney's complaint, district Superintendent John Burke decided in December to send a warning letter to Laven.
What kind of warning letter? Warning him not to talk to the media? Warning him not to talk to the kid or his parents?
Warning him of what exactly?
You have very little information there.
-SW
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Originally posted by john9001
todays kids are wimps, back in my day if a kid refused to say the pledge, we would have just beat him up after school.
Hear hear!
And Thrawn, just because you might have a protected right to do something, does not mean you should excercise that right whenever you can.
If you want to, sure, but you can bet that you will provoke some kind of reaction.
Reminds me of when I was in the military, -true story to follow-
In one of the other companys (the one on the floor below ours in the barracks, or Kazerne, or whatever its called in English) one guy decided that it was a good idea to come out of the closet during his military service, so he told everyone in his platoon that he was gay.
SMART MOVE.
First he recieved the total freeze out. No one, and I mean NO ONE would talk to the guy, no one would stay in the same room as him etc, no one would help him with anything. During manuevers the officers had to order guys to help him if he needed help with anything (you know, small things like helping eachother put on the backpack etc)
This went on for a couple of weeks (that guy became well known throughout the regiment, pretty soon everyone was avoiding him). He would not take the hint though, so they told him to go to the platoon leader and ask for a transfer. The guy refused though...for some unknown reason.
So, one night they beat him up in the shower room. And the next day he was transferred out and never seen again.
Moral of the story:
Even though his right to be gay is protected by the Swedish law, the gay dude still had to face the consequences of exercising those rights.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
You would beat up a kid for exercising his Constitutional rights? Cripes, who is "we", you and your Hilter Youth group?
SaburoS, AKIron, you're both poo-poo heads. :p
I dunno about poo-poo head but according to my wife and perhaps everyone within 5 miles of me driving on the highway I can definitely be an prettythanghole.
:cool:
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Laven didn't return calls seeking comment. But Laven told Burke during Burke's investigation that Woodbury was disruptive and tried to incite other students not to say the pledge, according to Burke's written report.
Because he's being investigated, believe it or not... in order to have a real investigation you don't tell jack toejam to the media, cuz they are a bunch of tards.
After investigating Kearney's complaint, district Superintendent John Burke decided in December to send a warning letter to Laven.
What kind of warning letter? Warning him not to talk to the media? Warning him not to talk to the kid or his parents?
Warning him of what exactly?
You have very little information there.
-SW
True enough about the investigation and the media. The same can be said of the student's "disruptive" behavior.
But AFTER his investigation, John Burke decided to send Laven a warning letter. LOL I hardly find that a warning letter would be necessary to tell a teacher not to talk to the media. Based on the article, I am assuming (yes AKIron, I am assuming just like you and most are in forming our opinions in this case) that the warning letter is some sort of "Don't let it happen again" type of letter.
If the student was truly disruptive, teachers normally send the offending student to the principals or deans office.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I dunno about poo-poo head but according to my wife and perhaps everyone within 5 miles of me driving on the highway I can definitely be an prettythanghole.
:cool:
:D
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Good point, but I am very skeptical of the whole situation... it happened in California after all. :)
-SW
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Hear hear!
Reminds me of when I was in the military, -true story to follow-
In one of the other companys (the one on the floor below ours in the barracks, or Kazerne, or whatever its called in English) one guy decided that it was a good idea to come out of the closet during his military service, so he told everyone in his platoon that he was gay.
SMART MOVE.
First he recieved the total freeze out. No one, and I mean NO ONE would talk to the guy, no one would stay in the same room as him etc, no one would help him with anything. During manuevers the officers had to order guys to help him if he needed help with anything (you know, small things like helping eachother put on the backpack etc)
This went on for a couple of weeks (that guy became well known throughout the regiment, pretty soon everyone was avoiding him). He would not take the hint though, so they told him to go to the platoon leader and ask for a transfer. The guy refused though...for some unknown reason.
So, one night they beat him up in the shower room. And the next day he was transferred out and never seen again.
Moral of the story:
Even though his right to be gay is protected by the Swedish law, the gay dude still had to face the consequences of exercising those rights.
EXACTLY, Hortlund!! Just because you have rights doesn't mean there isn't concequences if you exercise your rights! Imagine the pure unmitigated GALL of someone admitting to being gay and NOT expecting to be beaten!!
That stupid studmuffin soldier and that stupid 8th grade dork should have both just stood at attention, say what they were TOLD to say and kept their rights to themselves! Their rights only extend as far as their tounge. Once they say something they have violated MY rights by making me listen to something I don't want to hear.
BTW Steve, where in Montana are you from anyway?
:)
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"California law requires students to participate in patriotic exercises daily"
Damn, that's scary.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Their rights only extend as far as their tounge. Once they say something they have violated MY rights by making me listen to something I don't want to hear.
BTW Steve, where in Montana are you from anyway?
:)
hehe a smiley airhead? Are you getting soft in your old days?
ANYWAY
I'm not really sure how that gay dude figured the situation would play out after he told everyone about his orientation. Maybe he had some mental image about a snake pit on the floor or something, I dunno.
But generally I would expect that if you're gay, and if you are planning to come out, you probably should do so when you are at the university surrounded by hundreds of liberals or something, and not when you are in the military, surrounded by hundreds of guys aged 18-20 all trying to fit in and act as macho as possible.
I dont know if you have been in the military, but the jargon can be pretty harsh against various types of people, with gay people being one of the more un-appreciated people types.
Sweden...not Montana. Although I've heard that Montana is a beautiful state.
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Originally posted by blitz
Ja sind unsere Kinder in guten Händen.
I would prefer "Na, sind unsere Kinder in guten Händen?"
but it's quite ok like it is .
Regards Blitz :)
hey blitz, does "ich bin ein berliner" really mean "i am a jelly dounght"?
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Right over steves head. :D
"Sweden...not Montana. Although I've heard that Montana is a beautiful state."
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Originally posted by weazel
Right over steves head. :D
"Sweden...not Montana. Although I've heard that Montana is a beautiful state."
Oh no, how humiliating...
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Now now Steve, you're Swedish so you can't be expected to know about a gay murder that happened in Montana. Hell, once past Stockholm I can't name another Swedish city anyway.
I just think it's ironic a history and CONSTITUTION teacher would say "I don't care WHAT the law says, you will do as I say!" I could understand this from a wood shop teacher, or a PE teacher, or even an English teacher- but for a constitution teacher to not understand the constitution in dealing with his pupils is sad.
So no wonder little Johnny can't read- neither can his teacher.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Now now Steve, you're Swedish so you can't be expected to know about a gay murder that happened in Montana. Hell, once past Stockholm I can't name another Swedish city anyway.
I just think it's ironic a history and CONSTITUTION teacher would say "I don't care WHAT the law says, you will do as I say!" I could understand this from a wood shop teacher, or a PE teacher, or even an English teacher- but for a constitution teacher to not understand the constitution in dealing with his pupils is sad.
So no wonder little Johnny can't read- neither can his teacher.
(pssssst - it was Wyoming)
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whats a ""jelly dounght"?
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Originally posted by Airhead
Now now Steve, you're Swedish so you can't be expected to know about a gay murder that happened in Montana. Hell, once past Stockholm I can't name another Swedish city anyway.
I just think it's ironic a history and CONSTITUTION teacher would say "I don't care WHAT the law says, you will do as I say!" I could understand this from a wood shop teacher, or a PE teacher, or even an English teacher- but for a constitution teacher to not understand the constitution in dealing with his pupils is sad.
So no wonder little Johnny can't read- neither can his teacher.
But do you really think that is what happened?
Teacher: "Lets all stand up and recite the pledge of allegiance"
Kid: "But Sir, it is my constitutional right not to take that pledge."
Teacher:"Get out of my classroom you b*stard, I dont care what the constitution says, in my classroom you will stand on your head and pledge allegiance to a bowl of warm milk IF I SAY SO."
Kid: [leaves classroom] "Oh, no...'tis a sad day in our history, if only the founding fathers could see me now."
My guess (knowing what the classrooms look like these days) is more along these lines
Teacher: "Alright kids, return to your seats. Try to keep it quiet. MURPHY, put down that knife! Alright, as I was saying, now we are...[sound of Eminem rap music filling the classroom] BRIAN, TURN THAT THING OFF. [sound stops] What have I told you about playing rap music in class Brian?
Brian: "F*ck you"
Teacher: [pretends not to hear] "Ok, lets return to the pledge of allegiance.
Students: "Oh man...this is rediculous."
Teacher: "Stand up everyone."
Woodbury: "F*ck you man, we dont have to put up with this sh*t."
Teacher: "You too Woodbury, it will only take a minute."
Woodbury:"No f*cking way, the G man has opressed me and my people for as long as I can remember. They wont let me smoke pot, they wont let me blow stuff up. I say screw the government. We dont owe them anything, f*ck them and f*ck their lackeys the police."
Students: "Yaaay"
Teacher:"Alright Woodbury, you dont have to take the pledge. Just sit down and be quiet while the rest of class takes the pledge."
Woodbury:"No way, you cant force me to sit down, and besides, I dont think anyone else wants to take that stupid pledge anyway. I say f*ck the power, f*ck the government, and f*ck you mr teacher-as*hole."
Students:[laughing]
Teacher:"Get out of this classroom and cool off mister."
Woodbury:"F*ck you, I'm gonna go smoke a joint." [leaves]
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This patriotic crap is one thing I think is wrong about America. It's basically a brainwashing of children similar to what happens in North Korea and other such states.
We've seen the results on this board - unwillingness to accept that there might be problems in ones country, unwillingless to objectively analyse a situation involving ones own country.
And 'deth to amreeka' posts as soon as any critisism is voice. If that critzism comes from the other political camp, be it liberal or conservative, that is. Not that I don't like the humorous ones, but I don't think one can question weazel's patriotism. His views, aye, but not his patriotism.
In some cases he's pointing out situations where the government is meddling with your constitutional rights - to object to this is to be unamerican and unpatriotic.
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Steve, great scenario about life in an American classroom, and while I admit his class is closer to your depiction than the image of shiny scrubbed smiling faces all seated quietly in neat rows I have a couple of lingering doubts about this instructor's honesty.
Reading between the lines of his "warning" letter it was stated the child should not have been outside unsupervised. This leads me to believe the normal procedure for disruptive behavior is a visit to the principal's office. To have the child stand outside the classroom instead of visiting the principal's office raises a question- Did he have to stand there the entire class, or just during the saying of the Pledge of Allegence? If it was just during the Pledge then that indicates he was being punished solely for his refusal to say the Pledge.
If I were this kid's attorney I would research his genealogy, find a distant ancestor who might have been part Native American and sue the school district for a billion dollars for violating this kid's civil rights.
MT, Wyoming?? Really??
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I strongly suspect Junior was "primed" to make that response before he want to school that morning. Children often reflect the political and religious beliefs of their parents. At times they can be quite obnoxious about it. I wonder if the teacher was a veteran. If so, Junior may have been deliberately yanking his chain. Or the teacher may have been a butt-head. None of us know the truth of the matter because we weren't there.
Some students are honesty and civility. Others are motivated only by a desire for attention or self-preservation. If that was the case, we may never know the truth of the matter, for we won't get it from Junior.
Shuckins
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In other news, Hitler has been reincarnated in a school teacher.
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My sister and my other sister's husband are teachers. Both have taught various grades in the public school system. The crap that they have had to put up with from students, parents and even other teachers makes wonder why the hell anyone would want to do it. Things were a lot different when I was in public school.
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Originally posted by Airhead
MT, Wyoming?? Really??
Yep, if you are talking about the kid who was beaten and left tied to a fence post.
Happened in Laramie, Kid was from Casper.
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Their choice Iron. Might be a hard job, but it is their choice.
One also has to recognize the power that comes with the job.The power to influence kids. TYhe power to be very dominating if that fits ones personality.
But yah, wouldn't want to be a teacher because of all the obnoxious kids.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Their choice Iron. Might be a hard job, but it is their choice.
One also has to recognize the power that comes with the job.The power to influence kids. TYhe power to be very dominating if that fits ones personality.
But yah, wouldn't want to be a teacher because of all the obnoxious kids.
Of course it's their choice. My brother-in-law even gave it up for a few years because of all the bs. Guess there was enough satisfaction to bring him back since he is now at it again.
Anyhow, my point was, why should we inflict such discouragement on people we need to teach our kids? Sooner or later even the most dedicated will give it up and all we'll have left are the ones that can't do anything else or are in it solely for the money and do a lousy job.
This kinda goes back to the patriotism thing. Sure, it's hip to be a dissenter. Proves how smart you are by not being suckered by the system. Of course what happens when there's no one to support the system?
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I wouldn't last a week in a middle or high school as a teacher.
I would support any child who did not wish to say the Pledge of Allegience, though.
I would also strictly limit the WAY the child expressed his preference in my classroom. In the USA, teachers have more rights concerning discipline and control of children than you may think. For example, a police officer may not search a student for drugs unless there is "probable cause." A teacher does not have to meet that standard.
I also consider that having a disruptive student stand outside the classroom all by him or herself for a period of time to contemplate their disrespect towards the teacher and the class to be totally age appropriate in middle school.
Unfortunately, we may not hear how this turns out. It just may be that when the facts are all in, they do not coincide at all with what some of you might mistakenly believe is the central issue here.
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StSanta most of the negative responses to weazel are not "What" he says but "How" he says them.
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You "conservatives" just can't stand to see your reflection in the mirror.
When someone like cabby drives by it's a mutual admiration society...and a back slapping good time, when I use the same tactics from a different view point I'm an unpatriotic mentally ill piece of toejam who should leave America.
Get over yourselves.
Originally posted by Turdboy
StSanta most of the negative responses to weazel are not "What" he says but "How" he says them.
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Originally posted by Turdboy
StSanta most of the negative responses to weazel are not "What" he says but "How" he says them.
Nah, it's both.
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Originally posted by weazel
I'm an unpatriotic mentally ill piece of toejam who should leave America.
First thing you have ever said that I agree 100% with. Just stay the he** away from Sweden.
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If you so called "conservatives" are anything it's predictable.:p
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Well, well. This topic has reached this band of highly "Patriotic folks". Listen. Patriotism is voluntary or it's just so much BS. Gimme a troop that's POed at his country, and is willing to Fight for it to make it better evertime. Keep the Pansy no rifle carrying warmongering All TALK Conservative Ultra Christian Fat Bodies in their little cubicles. If I choose to say it I will, If I choose not to I won't. That's Freedom!
This Kid was probably the only kid in the class that read, and Understood the constitution. That teacher needs to be FIRED!
Forcing Children to recite a pledge (written by a Communist By the way, Look it up) Is Fascist.
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Originally posted by TWOLF
This Kid was probably the only kid in the class that read, and Understood the constitution. That teacher needs to be FIRED!
Forcing Children to recite a pledge (written by a Communist By the way, Look it up) Is Fascist.
No where in the article did I read that anyone was forced to do anything except perhaps leave the classroom. Forcing a teenager to do anything they don't want to do, what an imagination.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by AKIron
No where in the article did I read that anyone was forced to do anything except perhaps leave the classroom. Forcing a teenager to do anything they don't want to do, what an imagination.:rolleyes:
He was told to say it, or leave. What is that?
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Hey weazel, come to Sweden. Or Denmark. You're most welcome. As is cabby.
Hortlund is just a closet conservative (it's not really allowed in Sweden you see, there you must be semi-socialistic with 'respect for the poor') and when he posts here, some of his frustrations about living in Sweden come out :).
Oh, no disrespect Hortlund. I realize that might sound sort of offensive. But I hope you get what I mean. I mean, social democrats always in power, always siding with 'the weak', PCness...express the views you have here to the average Swede and he'll look at you in the same way as the average Dne would (believe me, I know).
We could get cabby, weazel, me and you together in a room with nothing but fluffy pillows, leather g-string and 4-inch diameter poles. Would be fun.
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Originally posted by TWOLF
He was told to say it, or leave. What is that?
Even if that was the case I'd say he was given a choice, not forced to say it which he did not. However, it seems more likely that he was told to leave because of the disruption he created as the teacher said.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Even if that was the case I'd say he was given a choice, not forced to say it ...
Anybody else reminded of that old Cheech and Chong skit?
"You vill sign ze papers!!!"
"No! No! I cannot sign ze papers!"
"Sign ze papers!!" (whack whack)
"AAAAGGGGHH!!!! Please, I CANNOT SIGN ZE PAPERS!"
"And why can you not sign ze papers?"
"Because...(sob)...You have broken all my fingers!"
LOL c'mon, AKIron, are you saying civil rights come with the possibility of punitive action if you exercise those rights???
Then if that's the case why have civil rights at all?
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I won't concede that the kid wasn't being an bellybutton about it and was kicked outta class for that. However, for the sake of argument, what's punitive about being asked to leave the class during an activity with which he wanted no part? The little snot, no doubt liberal parents.
Just because you may have the constitutional right to be an bellybutton doesn't mean you have to exercise it and it certainly doesn't mean I have to smile and ignore it. (not speaking to any you in particular)
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Funny how people are all for America, its Constitution and Bill of Rights... until it gets uncomfortable.
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Originally posted by AKIron
for the sake of argument, what's punitive about being asked to leave the class during an activity with which he wanted no part?
Well, he is being isolated from his peers. He is being singled out for exercising this right and being ostercized by his teacher. His teacher is showing his disapproval of this kid's choice instead of doing his REAL duty, which is to uphold this child's rights according to the law regardless of his personal feelings on the subject.
Perhaps you have confused "rights" with "optons." If someone tells me I have a right then I don't believe I should have to worry about prosecution by authority figures if I exercise that right. This kid was given "options"- if he insisted on exercising his rights he will be punished. The fact that the punishment was extremely minor has no bearing on the exercising of his rights- he was STILL punished, however slight, and that was wrong.
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"Fair weather Americans" MT, and everyone of them should be ashamed of themselves.
Originally posted by midnight Target
Funny how people are all for America, its Constitution and Bill of Rights... until it gets uncomfortable.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Funny how people are all for America, its Constitution and Bill of Rights... until it gets uncomfortable.
yeah, ain't that the truth.
the kid didn't get the cheers and applause he was looking for by bucking the system so now we gotta fire the teacher. Why is it that it's always the libs squeaking for the oil?
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Originally posted by Airhead
Well, he is being isolated from his peers. He is being singled out for exercising this right and being ostercized by his teacher.
When he exercised his right to count the US govt as corrupt and refused to support America through the pledge he was making a statement. That he wasn't willing to endure a little ridicule for that shows just how deep his convictions.
Again, this is for argument sake, in reality he interrupted those also exercising their constitutional rights and was simply told to leave the class.
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Originally posted by AKIron
....he wasn't willing to endure a little ridicule for that shows just how deep his convictions.
Again, this is for argument sake, in reality he interrupted those also exercising their constitutional rights and was simply told to leave the class.
Any "ridicule" at all- regardless of how little- for exercising your rights, provided the ridicule is committed by authority figures charged with having knowledge of and protecting those rights, is too much entirely. Rights should be exercised without Government censure... Otherwise they are no longer rights.
Assuming he was told to stand outside during the recitation of the Pledge of Allegance, then allowed back into the classroom, whereas a normal punishment for being "disruptive" is a trip to the vice principal's office, one would have to believe he was being punished solely based upon his refusal to stand and say the Pledge of Allegence.
Whether we think the kid is a "little snot" or what is irrevelant- even "little snots" and (gasp) Liberals are protected by the Constitution, too.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Funny how people are all for America, its Constitution and Bill of Rights... until it gets uncomfortable.
No kidding. Seems we all favor Civil Rights. Where some of us differ is the right to exercise those rights.
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wish I could remember who to credit with this quote-
"The price of your freedom is the tolerance of the freedom of others"
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I see two possible motivating factors here:
1. The student was pushing the teacher's buttons, as kids will do in school. As an example, when I was going to junior high, we had a Civics teacher who was pretty tough. Staunch anti communist Civics teacher in the 7th grade. I had classes with this teacher up until the 10th grade...various subjects, mostly P.E. and homeroom. He was the school "enforcer."
By the time I got to 10th grade, my classmates and I had decided to have some fun with this teacher, in a friendly way, of course. This was a Christian school, and Communism was second only to the devil, as far as the evil on this world goes.
First thing we did was replace the American flag with the Russian hammer and sickle for the pledge of allegiance. I don't think he even noticed it 'til we started the pledge. He even allowed the commie flag to remain on the opposite side of the blackboard for a couple days...I think the principal questioned him about it, but he musta defended it (us) by saying it was part of the lesson plans. The next day, we (myself and three or four others) wore red hammer and sickle armbands, fabricated "Commie" brand construction paper cigarettes in a red box, and "smoked" them in class...even identified ourselves as the school Communist Society.
How did the teacher react to all this? He seemed to be humored by it....'til he sat down on the tacks in his chair. Even then, he didn't lose his cool. He was astute enough to smile about it, because he knew the whole thing for what it was...good natured. It was tailor made just for his benefit, and he knew it.
BTW...there was no paddling in this school. The most dreaded punishment was a 30 minute detention hall. As I recall, the toughest dude in the school was considered tough by us because he smoked. None of us got in any trouble whatsoever concerning the above. Probably because we weren't communists. We were 13.
2. Possibility on the part of the disruptive child's father to initiate a Civil Rights lawsuit against the school by using the child as a legal pawn to "test the waters" through provocative behavior. In other words, a scam initiated to either make money, gain notoriety, or intended to cause harm to traditional American values.
............................. ............................. ............................. ..................
Some have mentioned a violation of civil rights in this discussion. Please forgive my not understanding which civil rights have been violated. The Constitution has been mentioned, as well as the Bill of Rights. Which of these were violated?
Another question. Is there any weight to the student's rights issue on a constitutional level? Or is it more of a "proving ground" for testing limits by those who would undo our educational, and traditional belief system?
Thank you.
Les
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
wish I could remember who to credit with this quote-
"The price of your freedom is the tolerance of the freedom of others"
I tend to think that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance against those that would take it away. I'm sorry but tolerance in everything will result in you waking one day to wonder where your freedom went.
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AKIron, respecting the constitutional rights is hardly a slippery slope - uite the contrary.
If you start removing them little by little, then you're on that slope. And that is what's happening here.
I applaud this kid for refusing to participate in patriotic brain washing. They do the same thing in the DPRK, Iraq, former Soviet Union and so forth. You don't see it done in Scandinavia.
We're secure enough in our patriotism not to need to reaffirm it *every diddlying day*. That's a sign of insecurity.
Lover 1: Do you love me?"
Lover 2: "Yes.
Lover 1: "Do you love me now?"
Lover 2: "I said I love you. I meant it."
Lover 1: "YOU DON'T LOVE ME ANYMORE!"
Sad.
There are better ways of fostering patriotism than frcing people to pledge allegiance daily.
'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'.
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There IS a difference between standing up for something and standing up for the right to oppose the same thing. In America you have the right to do both and I support that. However, they ARE different things and many will do the latter while never doing the former but only ridicule those that do.
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Wow.
sending someone out in the hall is oppressing them?
His mom is one screwed up number.
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Originally posted by StSanta
'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'.
wtf is that supposed to mean?
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Originally posted by Pongo
His mom is one screwed up number.
My bet is his mom sees a potential lawsuit in here somewhere...
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Iron,
In this society, we are allowed to be different. In fact, that is one of the main reasons, this country was founded, to preserve the right to be different.
The point of the quote is that if you want the right to do whatever it is you want to do (so long as it doesn't stomp all over the rights of another). Then you have to tolerate (and even support) the fact that another mans idea of freedom may include things you don't particularly approve of, as long as it doesn't violate your rights or harm you. Just as he must tolerate your idea of freedom.
You may not approve of what this kid did (hell I agree with you on that). However, his refusal to say the pledge is his right. Freedom of speech is not only the right to say what you feel, but also to not say what you do not feel.
He has a right to be dissatisfied with our gov't, he has a right to make it known, he has a right to try to sway others to his way of thinking, he has a responsibility to stay in this country and try to change the things he doesn't like. Moreover, as an American you have the duty to stand up for and protect his whinny little ass.
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No argument on any of your points capt. apathy. The kid has the right to refuse. I have the right to call him dead weight. The teacher didn't have the right to kick him out of class solely for his refusal. The teacher did have the right to kick him out of class for being disruptive.
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Anyone who thinks that this teacher should be fired for what he did does not have a clear picture of what being an educator is like. He should be disciplined, not fired.
If this teacher was your child's teacher, you MAY have thought he had done a fantastic job. Yet one incident, and one student, has brought him to our attention. Saying he should be fired based on this one incident is much like saying that a child should be taken from thier parents because the parents forgot to close the baby gate once and their toddler fell down the stairs.
Being a teacher has more in common with being a parent than it does any regular job. All parents and teachers make lots of mistakes. If we took kids away from parents who made mistakes, and also took teachers away for making mistakes, there would be no parents, and no teachers.
A lot of folks think that teachers only have to teach a "subject". But we also really must teach children how to interact with others in a socially acceptable manner, how to be safe, how to be a citizen. We do teach morality. Many kids have not been taught, or somehow never learned, the difference between right and wrong. If teachers don't make an effort to address these issues, classes become chaotic and unteachable. All students' learning suffers.
In most jobs, there are 100, or maybe 1,000 ways to make mistakes. In education, there are millions of ways. Much like parenting.
There are students, espescially older students, who live for disruption. Their main focus in school is to cause disruption. These kids always seem to be on the edge. They know what will get them in trouble and they persistantly skate close to that line. The creative ones search for undefined ways to get attention. Very often, "exercising their rights" is really a test to see how big of a wave they can make. Are these kids going to push their teachers past their normal behavioral limits? You bet.
Parents, did you ever try to get any work done at home while your toddlers are raising a stink? Did you get your work done? Were you frustrated and pushed past you normal behavioral limits... to the point that you yelled at them.. or did something else that was inappropriate?
THAT'S what teaching CAN be like. For some it's seldom, for others it's constant.
Think about this the next time you think a teacher should be fired for not handling a situation as you THINK you would have.
eskimo
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eskimo, I was exaggerating when I said he deserved to be fired. In fact I think it speaks volumes about the snot's Mom that she would even demand such a thing- especially in light of the kid no longer being enrolled in that school. Unfortunately the way the legal climate and human nature is today and with all the new attorneys scrambling to make a buck I have no doubt there's been a line of attorneys forming outside her door since that story broke that is more rowdy, with more fighting and more arrests than we'll see in the line forming at the Oakland Colliseum for tomorrow's Raiders-Titans football game.
Oh, and I know just how obnoxious eighth graders can be- I was one for three years.
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Originally posted by StSanta
AKIron, respecting the constitutional rights is hardly a slippery slope - uite the contrary.
If you start removing them little by little, then you're on that slope. And that is what's happening here.
I applaud this kid for refusing to participate in patriotic brain washing. They do the same thing in the DPRK, Iraq, former Soviet Union and so forth. You don't see it done in Scandinavia.
We're secure enough in our patriotism not to need to reaffirm it *every diddlying day*. That's a sign of insecurity.
Lover 1: Do you love me?"
Lover 2: "Yes.
Lover 1: "Do you love me now?"
Lover 2: "I said I love you. I meant it."
Lover 1: "YOU DON'T LOVE ME ANYMORE!"
Sad.
There are better ways of fostering patriotism than frcing people to pledge allegiance daily.
'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'.
LOL, St. Santa. You must have moved, or gotten rid of the Somalies.
Les
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DUTY HONOR COUNTRY.
Live by it or leave by it.
In other words love America or get the Hell out.
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Originally posted by rc51
DUTY HONOR COUNTRY.
Live by it or leave by it.
In other words love America or get the Hell out.
LOL, whatever you say Hitler. Do we have to goose-step in unison too? :rolleyes:
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Only if we don't goose step TOO high. We don't want to be mistaken for Rockettes now :)
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Love your country by protecting it rc51. Patriotism can take many forms, including ones you dislike.