Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dune on October 03, 2003, 11:42:44 PM
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Their longest shot was roughly 30 yards. I refuse to call them snipers.
From The Washington Times (http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20031002-084032-2817r.htm)
Concrete lesson of the snipers
By James Bovard
Former Montgomery County, Md., police chief Charles Moose's book on last year's sniper shootings has hit the bookstands. Moose's tears and tirades moved many Americans during the round-the-clock coverage of the killings. "Three Weeks in October" reveals little or nothing about the investigation that resulted in the capture of the two sniper suspects.
But Moose's book — and this week's anniversary of the sniper shootings — is a good prompt to recall the lessons of the brutal killings. The sniper rampage was one of the clearest tests of the ability of the new, "improved" post-September 11, 2001, law enforcement to respond to a perceived terrorist attack. President Bush announced on Oct. 14, 2002:
"We're lending all the resources of the federal government, all that have been required, to do everything we can to assist the local law authorities to find this — whoever it is." Mr. Bush declared the attacks were "a form of terrorism." More than 700 FBI agents were involved in the case.
Despite the high priority Mr. Bush gave the case, the FBI's response showed the same allergy to modern technology which, according to the congressional Joint Intelligence Committee report, contributed to the FBI's failure to detect the September 11 hijack conspiracy.
After panic erupted over the first shootings, FBI trainees were brought in to staff the telephone tip lines at the Montgomery County, Md., police headquarters. The FBI, scorning the technological revolutions of the last half-century, relied on the same tried-and-true methods the bureau used to catch targets like John Dillinger in the 1930s.
The Washington Post reported: "Authorities said information is taken down by hand on forms that make multiple carbon copies. Copies are sorted and marked 'immediate,' 'priority' or 'routine.' Tips that concern Montgomery County are put in one pile, Fairfax in another, Richmond in a third. FBI employees then drive the paperwork out to police in those locations." The Post noted complaints by numerous lawmen that "the FBI's problems handling thousands of phone tips are slowing and hampering the probe."
When the FBI trainees were not laboriously scrawling down the latest tip, they were busy hanging up on the snipers. In a note attached to a tree after the ninth shooting, the snipers complained that tip line operators had hung up on them five times. The note denounced police "incompitence" [sic] and declared: "We have tried to contact you to start negotiation. These people took [our] calls for a hoax or a joke, so your failure to respond has cost you five lives."
Shortly after the arrest of the two suspects, D.C. Police Chief Charles Ramsey publicly confessed: "We were looking for a white van with white people, and we ended up with a blue car with black people."
The only "evidence" the killers were white was the dogma of FBI and other serial killer profilers. The fixation on white killers spurred police to disregard several witness reports about darker-skinned murder suspects.
Several eyewitnesses reported to police they had seen an old Chevrolet Caprice at the scenes of shootings, but police scorned their reports. Police spotted the snipers' ratty blue car and recorded its out-of-state license plates at least 10 different times during the month of the killings; the vehicle was reportedly stopped or seen five times at roadblocks established immediately after shootings. But the police ignored the suspects.
Months before the sniper rampage began, five different people in Washington state contacted the FBI to report their suspicions about alleged sniper John Allen Muhammad's comments about killing police, his interest in buying silencers for his rifle, and his visit to a gunsmith to inquire about modifying a rifle to make it more easily concealed. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms was also contacted repeatedly. The FBI and ATF disregarded all the warnings.
The feds and local police, instead of using common sense and analyzing excellent leads, brought in Pentagon spy planes to canvas the entire Washington area. The use of the RC-7 planes may have been a breach of the Posse Comitatus Act (which prohibits using the military for domestic law enforcement) but all that mattered was assuring frightened people the government cared and was taking action. The planes provided no information that aided the apprehension of the suspects.
Federal agents and Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose sought to keep a tight grip on key information regarding the case. But it was a cable television leak regarding the license plate and car description that directly led to the apprehension of the suspects.
The bungling response to the snipers is a reminder that nothing happened on September 11, 2001, to make the government more competent. Neither of the two sniper suspects would have qualified for admission to med school to become brain surgeons. Far more damage could have done by a clique of savvy, well-trained foreigner snipers.
James Bovard is the author of the newly published "Terrorism & Tyranny: Trampling Freedom, Justice & Peace to Rid the World of Evil" (Palgrave MacMillan).
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Dune: Their longest shot was roughly 30 yards. I refuse to call them snipers.
Distance has nothing to do with it.
The guy who can hit targets from a great distance is just a marksman.
A sniper is a guy who can plug you from ten yards and still escape notice.
Anyway, I am positive that if those two stopped murdering people a bit sooner, we would now have a white guy owning a white van in jail facing execution.
Hunt for him was going so well untill those two screwed it up...
Maybe they could have blamed the shootings on Richard Jewell or Steven Hatfill.
miko
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I thought those who can plug you from 10 yards and get out as if they werent there were assassins :confused:
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As a fomer Army sniper (bravo-4)
I can tell you these two mallett heads where not snipers!!
Snipers Take a life to save lives.
That is our creed.
Sounds silly but that really is how we feel about it.
If you can take out one guy with an 50CAL MG then you may have saved a whole platton of men.
These idiots where just cowards with guns thats all nothing more.
They deserve to be HUNG!:mad:
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Originally posted by mrblack
As a fomer Army sniper (bravo-4)
I can tell you these two mallett heads where not snipers!!
Snipers Take a life to save lives.
That is our creed.
Sounds silly but that really is how we feel about it.
If you can take out one guy with an 50CAL MG then you may have saved a whole platton of men.
These idiots where just cowards with guns thats all nothing more.
They deserve to be HUNG!:mad:
Maybe you should go take it up with Merriam-Webster...
Main Entry: 2snipe
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): sniped; snip·ing
Date: 1832
1 : to shoot at exposed individuals (as of an enemy's forces) from a usually concealed point of vantage
...and then, talk to Dictionary.com
snip·er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (snpr)
n.
1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.
...then... yourDictionarly.com
snip·er
(click to hear the word) (snpr)
n.
A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.
...Encarta
snip·er (plural snip·ers)
noun
hidden shooter: somebody who shoots at people from a concealed position
...American Heritage
sniper
SYLLABICATION: snip·er
PRONUNCIATION: snpr
NOUN: 1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place. 2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.
I can't find a single dictionary that assigns any sort of moral value to the term. Maybe you can find something better to be angry about.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Maybe you should go take it up with Merriam-Webster...
I can't find a single dictionary that assigns any sort of moral value to the term
;)
Merriam-Webster Did not train at Ft benning nor did Merriam-Webster Ever have to shoot any one Smart arse.
My guess would be you where never in the field in service of your country.
If you where then you would know exactly what moral value they would be.
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Anger is a choice. ;)
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Originally posted by mrblack
Merriam-Webster Did not train at Ft benning nor did Merriam-Webster Ever have to shoot any one Smart arse.
My guess would be you where never in the field in service of your country.
If you where then you would know exactly what moral value they would be.
Never in the "field" but definitely in the service... ten years USN.
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Nope I never get angry It is counter productive.
You would learn in the real would that in combat the sniper is a force multiplier.
he is a valuable tool to be used to help save the lives of his comrades in arms.
Or to be used to take out enemy snipers.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Nope I never get angry It is counter productive.
You would learn in the real would that in combat the sniper is a force multiplier.
Is is a valuable tool to be used to help save the lives ov his comrades in arms.
Or to be used to take out enemy snipers.
There's more to the "real world" than combat. Your training is meant to prepare you for something surreal and abnormal. Most people could not do what you do, nor should they. They do not understand it. The language of the warrior is not the same as the language of the civilian.
Try not to be offended.
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And by the way you dont have to be in the military to be a sniper.
The police employe snipers as well.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
There's more to the "real world" than combat.
If your in combat there is NOTHING else!
Atleast there better not be if you plan on ever going home upright.
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Hehe... I can tell it's late... we're both editing behind the power curve. :D
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There is nothing more human than combat.
It the primale male at his most basic.
It brings out everything we abhore about ourselvse and in that arena makes it all normal.
Then at some point the nightmares begine.
You start to see the faces of those whome you and you alone decided when and where there life would end.
It is a very personale thing to deal with.
No matter how cold a heart or how steely your focus you will always be forever hauted by what you have choosen to do as a profession.
I had an instructor at benning tell me that everynight when he goes to sleep those that he has killed in combat come to visit him in his dreams.
Man i am so glad that I was in during peace time and never had to take a life.
I like to be able to sleep at night.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Hehe... I can tell it's late... we're both editing behind the power curve. :D
By the way you sound like an ok guy for a sqiubie.:D
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Originally posted by mrblack
There is nothing more human than combat.
It the primale male at his most basic.
It brings out everything we abhore about ourselvse and in that arena makes it all normal.
Then at some point the nightmares begine.
You start to see the faces of those whome you and you alone decided when and where there life would end.
It is a very personale thing to deal with.
No matter how cold a heart or how steely your focus you will always be forever hauted by what you have choosen to do as a profession.
I had an instructor at benning tell me that everynight when he goes to sleep those that he has killed in combat come to visit him in his dreams.
Man i am so glad that I was in during peace time and never had to take a life.
I like to be able to sleep at night.
Someone's been reading wayyyy too much Tom Clancy....
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:rofl
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murderer
Main Entry: mur·der·er
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r-&r
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: one who murders; especially : one who commits the crime of murder
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Originally posted by GScholz
There is something inherently dishonest about the word "sniper", and that accurately describes the two murderers in DC.
You know why... killing is inherently dishonest business regardless of the situation :D
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Please save your definitions for Mr. Black. It's quite obvious he has never seen a dictionary, much less opened one.
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Originally posted by Fishu
You know why... killing is inherently dishonest business regardless of the situation :D
Probably the most itellegent thing ever said on this board.
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Originally posted by rpm371
Please save your definitions for Mr. Black. It's quite obvious he has never seen a dictionary, much less opened one.
Did not have to much time for the dictionary.
I was to busy trianing for the defence of my country and people like you .
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The word "sniper" was invented in India.
It was taken from the word snipe wich was a bird.
And those english chaps where fond of hunting these little birds.
But the birds did not make it easy on them.
So if you where good enough to bag one of these birds you where then refferd to as a "sniper".
In WW2 the english SaS Comamdo teams along with the Germans and Russains all had snipers in the field.
But the word Sniper came from the above.
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What about Ninjas?
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1. Ninjas are mammals.
2. Ninjas fight ALL the time.
3. The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
What about Ninjas?
What about morons?
Oh I see we have our first post:rolleyes:
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Man, you'll get a stomach ulcer...
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My 1st post?
Apparently, not only could you not open a dictionary... I now discover you cannot count either.
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Humans *can* kill other humans, but its not an ingrained or evolved trait.
I wouldn't call 'combat' man's natural element.
DC killers are low-life individuals. The only thing they suceeded at was making people hate muslims and blacks more.
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Oh boy, Saintaw vs. Mrblack.
Someones going to get a nasty nerf burn.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Probably the most itellegent thing ever said on this board.
That's sig material if there ever was.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Did not have to much time for the dictionary.
I was to busy trianing(sic) for the defence(sic) of my country and people like you .
I hered thay gots sum reel good GED corses in the Armee. But I jist looks at the piktures.
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mrblack, do you have any proof that you served as a sniper? Because you don't sound very convincing. You write and sound like a 15 year old wannabe.
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Originally posted by mrblack
As a fomer Army sniper (bravo-4)
I can tell you these two mallett heads where not snipers!!
Snipers Take a life to save lives.
That is our creed.
Sounds silly but that really is how we feel about it.
If you can take out one guy with an 50CAL MG then you may have saved a whole platton of men.
These idiots where just cowards with guns thats all nothing more.
They deserve to be HUNG!:mad:
lol
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I bet 10 € for Saw !
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Do you guys remember when WWIIOL first came out and everyone ran around saying how they were gonna sniper everybody?
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Originally posted by Dune
Do you guys remember when WWIIOL first came out and everyone ran around saying how they were gonna sniper everybody?
They were the ones who probably first went back to CS :D
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Fishu: I thought those who can plug you from 10 yards and get out as if they werent there were assassins :confused:
The original word "assasin" came from "hashishin" or something like that - suicidal killers that served as an enforcement arm of a religious sect based in the mountains of Persia untill being destroyed by mongols, if I remember correctly.
The original "assasins" were not interested in "getting out" but in murdering their intended victim and dying in order to get their heavenly reward - virgins, etc.
During "training" they were shown a "sneak peak" at the heaven that expected them with the help of hashish (variant of opium) and were possibly doped on hashish while killing.
If anyone cares to know more about military snipers, there is FM 23-10 awailable on the web.
mrblack: ...in combat the sniper is a force multiplier.
he is a valuable tool to be used to help save the lives of his comrades in arms.
So is a torturer - another valuable, if underappreciated, military speciality. The torturers save quite a lot of lives too - by gaining valuable information about ambushes, location of the enemy, etc. And they cannot even boast about their service like snipers do...
It's not the label on a person's speciality that carries value connotation - it's the cause that is being served by his actions.
davidpt40: Humans *can* kill other humans, but its not an ingrained or evolved trait.
Right. When a human turns murderer voluntarily, it is usually a result of psychoticism - a largely inheritable trait of character which runs a scale from mild psychotic to sociopath.
Usually it is the action of a state that makes humans kill other humans.
miko
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Never in the "field" but definitely in the service... ten years USN.
You were in the navy? Aww isn't that cute. Did your husband serve too?
hehe
J/K dude...I just love that line...it's normally reserved for Coast Guard guys...but the navy works well in this thread. ;)
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Originally posted by Thrawn
mrblack, do you have any proof that you served as a sniper? Because you don't sound very convincing. You write and sound like a 15 year old wannabe.
If I thought you where worth me posting personal info I would post my DD-214
Or do you know what a DD-214 is?
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Being a canadian, it would be quite excusable for Thrawn not to know that DD-214 is a Military Discharge document.
But I guess Thrawn did get his answer anyway.
mrblack, you do not have enough smarts, patience and attention to details to be even a common forum fraud, let alone a sniper.
miko
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What would you like to know?
I can tell you that you must be between the pay grades of E-3 And E-7. And 11-b = Infantry
The course when I took it in 1977 was 4 weeks in length.
I was 19 years of age at the time.
Just ask me any question pertaining to sniper training in that era and I will answer it for you.
Thats the best I can do.
And In the long run I really Have nothing to prove to you anyway
:D
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Originally posted by miko2d
Being a canadian, it would be quite excusable for Thrawn not to know that DD-214 is a Military Discharge document.
But I guess Thrawn did get his answer anyway.
mrblack, you do not have enough smarts, patience and attention to details to be even a common forum fraud, let alone a sniper.
miko
Go ahead smart guy ask me any question you like on the subject.
I will shoot you down(pardon the pun).
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Mr black, you will have to forgive these people most of them are 15yo boys who think that they rule the world because they know how to do a Google search...:rolleyes: There are a few questions though:
Most real snipers wouldn't be here arguing with a bunch of nerds braging about their job in the army. So why are you here? Do you like to fly also? If so thats cool.
We get a bunch of people who talk a lot of smack and most have grown cynical of anyone that says they actualy did something like this.
So, what rifle did you train on?
If you are what you say you are for your service to our country.
Oh ya, I agree completely with your take on the DC shooters.
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Thx Medicboy.
LOL Im also an EMT LOL.
I trainded on the M-21 wich was a modified version of the m-14.
I responded to this thread to help educate what a Sniper is .
And to help the general public know that a real sniper would never shoot unarmed civilians.
The SWS sniper weapons system used today is the M-24.
Witch is based on the remington m700 bolt action.
And then there is the M82-A1 barret semi auto 50cal.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Witch is based on the remington m700 bolt action.
My Remington 700 took a deer down from 150 yards, moving, through the heart, with iron sights. Do I get a medal? :D (I have to admit, I missed the first shot as he stood still....:eek: )
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No but i bet you got some good steaks:D
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LOl rip, the only part of the Rem 700 they use is the action, but even that is gon through and "trued" They use a custom bbl, custom stock with the action bedded by hand, and a scope neither you or I could afford...
Mr black, you must have gone through training some time ago if you learned on the m-21, they changed that a while back didn't they? To the M-24 right? Were you marine or army? The marines have their own smiths build their rifles, the army buys a custom job from the factory...
Do they still use the US Optics scopes? Heard they were going to change that.
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They changed to the M-24 in 1984 I think.
I got out in 81
The scopes where made by a company called (mispelled) unertall
I was Army.
The marine scout snipers I think Are now trained at quatico Va.
And the rifles are built there as well.
And I think US optics Is now the supplier for the scopes but i could be wrong on that.
US Army Sniper school is located at Ft Benning Ga on Harmony Church Rd.
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Thats what I thought, Unertil is now made by US optics and available to the general public for around $2500.
Like I said, for your service to our country, and don't pay any attention to the others here like Miko, he is our resident expert on everything.
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NO thank you for your hard work as a Paramedic!!
I know as an EMT since 1993 how hard a job it can be.
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Originally posted by GScholz
This is so wrong.
Why, because you can't see through the fog? Open your eyes and use your brain, I've read your earlier post, I know you have one.
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Yeah, Creamy's going to cry.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Yeah, Creamy's going to cry.
LOL!
He still hates me to this day for defending you Saw, back in the Beta days. Hehe!
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:rofl
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Originally posted by GScholz
This thread wasn't supposed to end like this ... like Oprah! Was expecting more of a Ricki Lake ending. Oh well.
(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/hippy.gif)
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Cant we just all get along:(
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Originally posted by mrblack
Cant we just all get along:(
No.
(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/bigun2.gif)
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I'm going to go get along with a pizza ,extra peperoni.
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Originally posted by mrblack
If I thought you where worth me posting personal info I would post my DD-214
Or do you know what a DD-214 is?
I really don't have the expertise to determine whether ot not a DD-214 would be proof necessary.
But hey, lets see whether or not I can find the things you've post to prove on the internet.
Excuse me searching for "US sniper school" in google.
"Army Sniper School
One Shot, One Kill
Join the Discussion
Visit Our Message Forum
Related Resources
• National Guard Sniper School
• Air Force Counter-Snipers
• Army Enlisted Jobs
• Army Resources
According to figures released by the Department of Defense, the average number of rounds expended in Vietnam to kill one enemy solder with the M-16 was 50,000. The average number of rounds expended by U.S. military snipers to kill one enemy soldier was 1.3 rounds. That's a cost-difference of $23,000 per kill for the average soldier, vs. $0.17 per kill for the military sniper.
According to the U.S. Army, the average soldier will hit a man-sized target 10 percent of the time at 300 meters using the M16A2 rifle. Graduates of the U.S. Army sniper school are expected to achieve 90 percent first-round hits at 600 meters, using the M24 Sniper Weapon System (SWS).
The sniper has special abilities, training, and equipment. His job is to deliver discriminatory, highly accurate rifle fire against enemy targets that cannot be engaged successfully by the regular rifleman because of range, size, location, fleeting nature, or visibility. Sniping requires the development of basic infantry skills to a high degree of perfection. A sniper's training incorporates a wide variety of subjects designed to increase his value as a force multiplier and to ensure his survival on the Battlefield. The art of sniping requires learning and repetitiously practicing these skills until mastered. A sniper must be highly trained in long range rifle marksmanship and field craft skills to ensure maximum effective engagements with minimum risk.
A lot of people have the misconception that to be a good sniper, you have to be a good shooter. Shooting is only 20 percent of the course at the Army Sniper School. It takes a patient person, a disciplined person, a person who is used to working alone. In addition to marksmanship skills, the school instructs on detecting and stalking a target, and estimating the range of a target. The course also covers concealment and camouflage, as well as observation exercises.
The first U.S. Army Sniper School was initiated in 1955, right after the Korean War cease-fire. The present U.S. Army Sniper School was established at Fort Benning, Georgia, in 1987. The length of the school is 5 weeks. The Army National Guard Sniper School was established in 1993 at Camp Robinson Arkansas.
Prerequisites:
Must be 11B, 11M, 19D or CMF 18.
PFC-SFC (Grade waiverable).
Active duty, or Reserve, or National Guard, must have a good performance record with no history of alcohol, or drug abuse, must be a volunteer and be recommended by his commander.
Must be in excellent physical condition (70 percent or better in each event of the APFT).
Must have a corrected vision of 20/20
Must not have a record of disciplinary action.
Must be knowledgeable of skill level 2 tasks.
Must have a GT score of 100.
Must have qualified expert with the M16A2/M4 Carbine rifle within six months of course attendance.
Normal color vision must be annotated on SF 88, tested within six months of course attendance.
Must have a minimum of one (1) year retainability.
Must pass psychological evaluation (MMPI/CPI) conducted under the direction of a qualified psychologist.
Upon reporting to the U.S. Army Sniper School, Students are required to have the following:
1. Gillie suit complete.
2. 5 copies of all orders and amendments (NG/USAR 10 Copies)
3. Valid ID card and sets of metal ID tags with chain
4. Unit issued meal card (non-wavrable)
5. DA FORM 2-1 6. DA FORM 2A
7. Medical Records
8. Commanders Recommendation
9. DA form 3822-A
10. SF88 11. Rifle Marksmanship score card
SPECIAL INFO: The following items are also required for the USASS:
Large Alice pack w/frame, LBE/LBV complete with ammo pouch (2),
1 Qt. canteen (2)
first aid pouches, poncho w/poncho liner, water proof bag, (2)
cammo stick, calculator, padlocks, (2) (key or Commbo)
Clipboard.
Five (5) sets of BDUs, T-shirt, and black/green socks (1 set will be rendered unserviceable after training), 2 BDU caps, 2 pair of boots (combat or jungle, one pair will be rendered unserviceable after training)
2 Gray PT uniforms complete with running shoes, seasonal military attire (gortex, polypros, Etc), undergarments, toiletries, etc, as needed
2 ear-plugs w/carrier
1 lensetic compass
2 protractors, pens and mechanical pencils and
1 Boonie Hat and a Ghillie suit.
All students report to the USASS, Building 4882, Harmony church no later than 0800 hours on the reporting day (day prior to the class start date). Students arriving prior to 0800 hours on the class reporting date will report to the SDNCO, 2nd Battalion, 29th Infantry Regiment in building 74 on Main post, Fort Benning. "
Geez, look at all that, and that was off the first hit.
I imagine that you can understand my trepidation at accepting what you say at face value. Especially when there is so much information out there on the internet, that any pretender to sniperism can use to forward their case.
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Read some of the back post.
US ARMY sniper school in ar FT Benning GA on Harmony Church Rd.
My time there was in 1977
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My apologies mrblack.
Google: Address US sniper school Fort Benning
First link.
http://www.specialoperations.com/Schools/Army_Sniper/Default.htm
"REPORTING INFORMATION
STUDENTS WILL REPORT TO THE U.S. ARMY SNIPER SCHOOL HEADQUARTERS, BUILDING 4882, HARMONY CHURCH NO LATER THAN 0800 HOURS ON THE REPORTING DAY (DAY PRIOR TO THE CLASS START DATE)."
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Thrawn:
How do we know you're really Canadien? Do You have proof?
;)
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Nothing that Thrawn says has its validity based on Thrawn being a canadian.
On the other hand the idiotic illiterate childish rants of mrblack are supposed to have more validity because of his sniper background.
He is just not believable. You may accuse me of not wanting to believe him - which is true. I dread to imagine that our snipers could really be that stupid, illiterate, unobservant and impatient - in short exibiting all attributes of spoiled unparented 13-year old brat.
Unlike Thrawn I do not care about the details of his supposed sniper's career. Although, while researching/shopping for my weaponry I've found so many great resources on the Web that I could make much better showing as a US sniper. http://www.snipercountry.com for example.
I find it hard to believe that anyone born before 1977 could write the way he does or alternatively that anyone who writes liek that as an adult would be entrusted with any responcible job, let alone sniper training.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
On the other hand the idiotic illiterate childish rants of mrblack are supposed to have more validity because of his sniper background.
He is just not believable. You may accuse me of not wanting to believe him - which is true. I dread to imagine that our snipers could really be that stupid, illiterate, unobservant and impatient - in short exibiting all attributes of spoiled unparented 13-year old brat.
Unlike Thrawn I do not care about the details of his supposed sniper's career. Although, while researching/shopping for my weaponry I've found so many great resources on the Web that I could make much better showing as a US sniper. http://www.snipercountry.com for example.
I find it hard to believe that anyone born before 1977 could write the way he does or alternatively that anyone who writes liek that as an adult would be entrusted with any responcible job, let alone sniper training.
miko
Like what Miko, bad spelling?
I've been a registered member of sniper country for a few years now, only because they give great info on long range comp. shooting, not so much on sniping. Does that make me a wanabe, or someone who wants to become very good at what he likes to do?
Your the moron Miko, open up your foggy little mind and see the light, you don't know everything and you aren't the one selected to judge every word every one else says...
Grow up
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medicboy: Like what Miko, bad spelling?
:) If atrocious spelling is the only problem you see in mrblack's posts, there is not much I can say to affect your opinion.
As for my "judging", do not worry - my armed goons will not break into you bedroom to drag you to jail for the nonsense you post.
I am just expressing an opinion which you can ignore. It may be mistaken but blindly believing any illiterate ranter is not a sign of open-mindedness either.
miko
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Miko I can only say dont be angry at me for doing something in my youth.
As for my spelling I can assure you It has not effected my abillity to earn a nice living.
As a matter of fact the wife and I are building a rather nice 4.400
Sq Ft home as we speak.
Not to bad for a guy who cant put a sentence togther huh?
LOL The reasone I responded to this thread in the first place was to help draw the line between REAL snipers and those clowns that killed all those people in VA.
My fault for getting drug into this i quess.
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I also build custom rifles.
here is one I built.
Savage 223 with Mcmillian a-5 stock
(http://home.comcast.net/~c.hambleton/wsb/media/134502/site1045.jpg)
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Originally posted by miko2d
I find it hard to believe that anyone born before 1977 could write the way he does or alternatively that anyone who writes liek that as an adult would be entrusted with any responcible job, let alone sniper training.
Better check your spelling there Mr wizard
:D
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Oh and I guess you are an expert cuase you have read stuff at
sniper country LOL.
Ok maybe next war we have the SOG come to you for advice
:rofl
You have done nothing but attack me :confused:
And the only weapon you have is my spelling or lack there of.
True enough I only finnished high school But I am doing just fine thank you:lol
I have a wife A 320.000.00 dollar house 3 cars and all the money I can blow.
Yeppers not to bad for a fella how cant spell:)
Look inward before you find imperfections in others my friend.
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Originally posted by mrblack
True enough I only finnished high school But I am doing just fine thank you:lol
I have a wife A 320.000.00 dollar house 3 cars and all the money I can blow.
Yeppers not to bad for a fella how cant spell:)
1)Was this the same school Jetho Bodine graduated from?
2)How many Banks/Brink's Trucks did you have to rob?
3)Are you related to Yeager?
4)Do you actually think we belive this BS?
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5) Who cares...
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Originally posted by Curval
You were in the navy? Aww isn't that cute. Did your husband serve too?
hehe
J/K dude...I just love that line...it's normally reserved for Coast Guard guys...but the navy works well in this thread. ;)
Well... 15 years ago wasn't really true, but today... yeah... there are many women at sea.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
5) Who cares...
Appparently Miko, Thrawn and rpm.
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mrblack: Oh and I guess you are an expert cuase you have read stuff at sniper country LOL.
Ok maybe next war we have the SOG come to you for advice
:rofl
No. I never ever said I was a sniper or an expert on sniper art. I just said that anyone with an access to internet can pose as a sniper better than you do - even if you are a real sniper.
You have done nothing but attack me :confused:
Sorry. I am loosing patience with... Ah, heck, what's the point.
And the only weapon you have is my spelling or lack there of.
Spelling. Syntax. Semantics. Vocabulary. Not fitting a psychological profile of a supposed sniper - like being unobservant and impatient and overly extroverted. Claiming that I pretended to be a sniping expert. Spouting dumb slogans like "a sniper will never shoot unarmed civilians" instead of actual "a sniper will shoot whoever he is ordered to shoot or whatever is moving if he is really scared." Check the newspapers - snipers shoot unarmed civilians all the time, starting from the Weaver woman to hapless iraqi children on the roofs of their houses.
Nothing in my personal conversations with american combat veterans contradicts that opinion.
True enough I only finnished high school But I am doing just fine thank you:lol
I have a wife A 320.000.00 dollar house 3 cars and all the money I can blow.
I am happy for you. Really. How about kids?
You know what - if you really were a sniper and it's just your communication skills are such that they make impression of a teenader wannabe, that's your problem and certainly not a reason to get angry with you. So let's forget the stuff we said above and try to get on with it.
Please take any disagreable aforementioned words on my part as a critique, not personal offence.
I also build custom rifles.
here is one I built...
OK, that's interesting. Having just bought myself a house in upstate NY I can now keep weapons there that I can not own in NYS (I have a Mini-14). I am shopping for the "only" rifle to start my collection. My choice so far is M1A as the most versatile and reliable - as battle rifle, sniper rifle or a hunting rifle. What can you say/advise about that?
Do I really need the rear lugs like M-25? How big a difference does heavy or medium weight barrel make compare to the regular one? How much velocity does 18" barel lose compared to standard 22"? Do NM models have tighter chamber specks? How does that affect reliablility?
Whatever you can tell me about that rifle - anything usefull you can think of. Or any other advice on all-around rifle.
Also, what do you think of a Savage Varminter?
miko
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Originally posted by mrblack
I also build custom rifles.
here is one I built.
Savage 223 with Mcmillian a-5 stock
(http://home.comcast.net/~c.hambleton/wsb/media/134502/site1045.jpg)
Wow, that looks like my long missed Parker-Hale M-85.
MrBlack, Do you have any experiences from this gun, the M-85?
Or was it only used in Brittish service? Anyone knows?
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OK, that's interesting. Having just bought myself a house in upstate NY I can now keep weapons there that I can not own in NYS (I have a Mini-14). I am shopping for the "only" rifle to start my collection. My choice so far is M1A as the most versatile and reliable - as battle rifle, sniper rifle or a hunting rifle. What can you say/advise about that?
Do I really need the rear lugs like M-25? How big a difference does heavy or medium weight barrel make compare to the regular one? How much velocity does 18" barel lose compared to standard 22"? Do NM models have tighter chamber specks? How does that affect reliablility?
Whatever you can tell me about that rifle - anything usefull you can think of. Or any other advice on all-around rifle.
Also, what do you think of a Savage Varminter?
miko
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I can't tell if this is a trool or a legit question so here are a few observations.
An M1A is a poor choice for a do everything rifle, you might get my with one of the new M14's (note:not the mini 14 mut the updated version of the M1A) but I think it is still a poor choice. There is no real good compromise between a hunting and battle rifle. Your best bet is to get a nice bolt action for hunting, ditching the pos mini14, buying an ar-15 style rifle and going from there.
The 18" barrel on what? Your hunting rig? Bad choice, the shortest I would go on a hunting rifle is 20". You lose anywhere between 50-100fps per inch depending on the round and the load (ie: fast buring powder or slower burning) On the chamber tightness ,not sure. Barrel weight only comes into play after several shots, they resist heating up which could change point of impact. FOr a hunting rifle you do not need a hvy barrel.
I have a savage 112 bvss varmiter in 22-250, love it, by far the most accurate rifle I own.
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Originally posted by crabofix
Wow, that looks like my long missed Parker-Hale M-85.
MrBlack, Do you have any experiences from this gun, the M-85?
Or was it only used in Brittish service? Anyone knows?
Vaguely recall that Parker-Hales were at one time in Canadian service, but I was Armour not Infantry so I might be 100% wrong on this.
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Originally posted by mrblack
I also build custom rifles.
here is one I built.
Savage 223 with Mcmillian a-5 stock
(http://home.comcast.net/~c.hambleton/wsb/media/134502/site1045.jpg)
Anyone have spec.s on that scope? It's huge. I have almost no experience with the things. Scope looks like it weighs as much as the rifle.
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Current Canadian Army sniper rifle. Looks like a Parker-Hale (?)
(http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_53.asp?uSubSection=53&uSection=2)
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Sure looks like one, yes.
Bipod is diffrent though, but it sure looks like the mag is M14 style and the turn knob of the bolt is the same. Stock looks a little more slim, but it can be the picture.
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Here's the other one currently in the inventory. This was the weapon that our boys used to really "reach out and touch someone" in Afghanistan. I can't recall the details, but I believe they had a kill at 2,000 + metres. Don't know if it was this weapon or a Barrett .50 borrowed from our American cousins.
(http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_35.asp?uSubSection=35&uSection=2)
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Correction to above...2,430 metres...give or take....and not a Barrett .50 but indeed the weapon in the post above.
"Subject: Canadian Sniper Makes War Record Shot, 2430 Meters Canadian sets record for a long-distance shot under combat
Wait due to 'Canadian protocol'
A kill from 2,430 metres
The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defense officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the United States Army's 187th "Rakkasan" brigade last month, clearing out
diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they recommended them for medals after the battle.
Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, last month. Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land forces in Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze Star and two for
a Bronze Star with distinction. The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three weeks ago, Canadian military officials in Ottawa put the decorations on
hold, according to a U.S. Army source in Afghanistan.
The Canadian military told their U.S. counterparts to wait before awarding the medals for reasons of "Canadian protocol."
Spokesmen for the Department of National Defense would not comment on the award last night, but a source within the department said the medals are on hold while the military decides whether or not to award the men a similar Canadian decoration. However, Dr. David Bercuson, director of the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, said the real reason for the delay was likely official squeamishness.
"Canadians don't kill -- they don't even use the word kill; that's the problem," he said. "I think the military is not sure that the government is prepared to accept the fact, let alone celebrate the fact ... that Canadian soldiers do sometimes end up killing people." Many of the U.S. scouts who worked directly with the Canadian snipers were incensed that the Canadians did not get the Bronze Star, the medal for bravery the U.S. military usually gives foreign soldiers serving alongside its troops.
The snipers themselves, all of whom spoke on condition their names not be printed, have said they would prefer to receive a medal from their peers in the field rather than from National Defense Headquarters in Ottawa. Dr. Bercuson said there should be no objection to Canadians receiving a U.S. decoration: As recently as the Gulf War, two Canadian CF-18 pilots were given the Bronze Star. He said the medals would be a badly needed boost to the morale of the almost 900 Canadian soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan, especially after four of their comrades were killed and eight others wounded in last week's friendly fire incident. "Absolutely they should get it," Dr. Bercuson said. "It would be good for the morale of the guys and good for the morale of the whole unit, and they need a morale boost right now." Canadian snipers were reportedly outstanding in the fighting around the mountainous al-Qaeda bastion east of Gardez, code-named Operation Anaconda. The battle pitted the two Canadian sniper teams against an enemy that showered the assaulting coalition troops with mortars and machine-gun fire
as soon as they jumped from their helicopters. One member of the team, a corporal from Newfoundland, said on his first
night in combat he and his partner got an al-Qaeda machine gun in their sights as it was hailing bullets down on U.S. troops below.
Crawling up into a good position, they set up their .50-caliber rifle -- the Macmillan Tac-50, a weapon the corporal compares to having superhuman power in your hands. "Firing it feels like someone slashing you on the back of your hockey helmet with a hockey stick." When he hit his first target, an enemy gunman at a distance of 1,700 metres, he said all that ran through his mind was locating his next target. "All I thought of was Sept. 11th and all those people who didn't have a chance and the American reporter who was taken hostage, murdered and his wife getting the videotape of the execution; that is my justification." A master corporal from Ontario, the lead sniper of his three-man team,
said when they first landed in the combat zone "our spider senses were tingling.... It was night and we didn't know what to expect." By daylight, after coming under enemy machine-gun fire, he managed to ease his rifle barrel between two rocks and quickly located an enemy sniper hiding behind a small piece of corrugated steel between two trees. He guessed the distance at 1,700 metres and fired one shot through the metal, killing the man instantly. He said afterward he remembered thinking: "That's one less bullet that's gonna be coming at us, one less person we have to think about." During the next four days of fighting, the Newfoundland corporal set what
is believed to be a record for a long-distance shot under combat
conditions, hitting an enemy gunman at a distance of 2,430 metres. The days of crawling, shooting and long hours waiting in cover left the Canadian snipers exhausted. "You don't realize what you've done to your body and how tired you are till it's all done. I think we slept 14 or 15 hours when we got back," the master corporal said. Three of them, along with U.S. special forces soldiers, also rescued a company of the U.S. 101st Airborne Division that was pinned down by enemy
fire on the first day of Operation Anaconda. They also participated in Operation Harpoon, with Canadian troops on "the
whale," a mountain overlooking the Shah-e-Kot valley where al-Qaeda fighters were putting up stiff resistance.
Operation Harpoon, carried out in conjunction with Operation Anaconda, consisted of 500 Canadian and 100 U.S. troops under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Pat Stogran, who leads Canadian Forces in Afghanistan in the biggest ground offensive since the Korean War. Lieutenant Justin Overbaugh, of the American scout platoon to which the Canadian snipers were attached, said it was a pleasure to work with the Canadian troops. "Their professionalism was amazing," Lieut. Overbaugh said. "The Canadians were a very large asset to the mission. I would have loved to have 12 Canadian sniper teams out there. I'd have no problems fighting alongside of them again."
He said the Canadian snipers had equipment far superior to theirs. Their rifles had longer range than the U.S. weapons and better high-tech sights. Lieut. Overbaugh said if another mission comes up, he will request the Canadian sniper teams be sent with his unit. Senior military officials in Ottawa made a point of praising their work at the time. "The sniper teams suppressed enemy mortars and heavy machine-gun positions with deadly accuracy," Vice-Admiral Greg Maddison said after
Operation Harpoon ended. "Their skills are credited with likely having saved many allied lives."
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The scope Is a tasco custum shope 40 x And I have to agree with medicboy miko You will indeed loose 50-100 Fps per inche of barrell length.
The Garande Is a little complexe for an all around weapon.
But then again It is pretty reliable if kept clean.
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Originally posted by crabofix
Wow, that looks like my long missed Parker-Hale M-85.
MrBlack, Do you have any experiences from this gun, the M-85?
Or was it only used in Brittish service? Anyone knows?
No i have only seen pictures of it.
I believe the brits are now using the AW 338lapua.
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Originally posted by mrblack
No i have only seen pictures of it.
I believe the brits are now using the AW 338lapua.
Or is it the AI 338 lapua (AI meaning Accuracy International?)
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Originally posted by mrblack
No i have only seen pictures of it.
I believe the brits are now using the AW 338lapua.
338 lapua?
ok, so they have abandond the 308 win?
We are using the L96A1 AW in 308 win (7,62 nato, AW=artic war).
(I think this is the same model brittish troops are using, but they might have choosen the finnish Sako)
When I did service, there was a lot of saboted 5,56 (undercalibrated 7,62) and duplex tested for the "sharpshooters", are you guys using anyhting like this?
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LOL I have been out since 1981.
I was using 7.62mm 308 nato
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Originally posted by crabofix
338 lapua?
ok, so they have abandond the 308 win?
We are using the L96A1 AW in 308 win (7,62 nato, AW=artic war).
(I think this is the same model brittish troops are using, but they might have choosen the finnish Sako)
When I did service, there was a lot of saboted 5,56 (undercalibrated 7,62) and duplex tested for the "sharpshooters", are you guys using anyhting like this?
I doubt they have gotten totaly away from the 308, but the AI 338 lapua is just a much better gun and round.
On the sabots, no that I know of and I seriously doubt it. Sabots are inheriently inaccurate and unstable. In the 308 I think they just switched from the 168gr to a 172gr? Not sure on this but have heard something on these lines. ANd they still use the 300 win mag with the 190 gr smk.
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Ok, So, what about the duplex? Was it ever serviceble?
Duplex=2 bullets attached to eachother, "head in buttom" and where suppose to hit 1 inch from eachother
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Yeppers in the 300wm a 190grn will carry more energy at long distance.
And have more stability over its flight path.
Also more barrlels are made for the heavyer bulletts.
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Originally posted by crabofix
Ok, So, what about the duplex? Was it ever serviceble?
Duplex=2 bullets attached to eachother, "head in buttom" and where suppose to hit 1 inch from eachother
I think it would prove to be unstable for precision shooting.
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Originally posted by crabofix
Ok, So, what about the duplex? Was it ever serviceble?
Duplex=2 bullets attached to eachother, "head in buttom" and where suppose to hit 1 inch from eachother
Never even heard of this... Don't think it has a snow balls chance in He!! of working.
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It is working, I have shoot it. But if it works every time or 0nly 99 out of 100 is the question. On a 300 meter range The bullits hit under 2 cm from eachother. It must have been a failure, I doubt that Sweden is the only country that have tested it. If it would have been a succes, US forces would have adopted it.
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medicboy: I can't tell if this is a trool or a legit question so here are a few observations.
???
An M1A is a poor choice for a do everything rifle, you might get my with one of the new M14's (note:not the mini 14 mut the updated version of the M1A) but I think it is still a poor choice. There is no real good compromise between a hunting and battle rifle. Your best bet is to get a nice bolt action for hunting.
I couldn't care less for hunting but in case I ever do, I can have a bolt rifle, sure.
What I am talking about is a paramilitary/survival rifle that would be good for combat, for medium-range 4-600 yards sniping and could also be used for hunting in emergency. The rifle one would grab if it was the only one he could take with him.
Hunting pretty much means .308, not .223. .223 does not fragment beyong 200 yards, so it will not drop a dog, let alone a deer. With people it may be fine as a wounded enemy is still out of action but a deer that did not die in place is a wasted shot.
M1A was successfully used as a battle rifle and as a decent sniper rifle. No AR-15/AR-10 would ever compare in reliability. M14 is the same as M1A except full auto, which I do not care about, and illegal to own.
The M1A comes in 18" and standard 22" barrels. I was just curious what I lose in exchganges for weight/mobility.
ditching the pos mini14, buying an ar-15 style rifle and going from there.
Not allowed to own in NYS. No AR-15s/-10s, no AKs, no SKS, no Highpoints, nothing with a pistol grip, no FN/FAL. Nothing but Mini with 5-rd magasines. Have to keep it (and 10/22) in my Brooklyn home.
Barrel weight only comes into play after several shots, they resist heating up which could change point of impact.
Barrel weight is what determines the stiffness and thus the magnitude/consistency of harmonics. Also inertial stability. The heavier the barrel, the better. Even 10/22 target shooters use .92 barrel to shoot .22lr at 100 yards.
mrblack: And I have to agree with medicboy miko You will indeed loose 50-100 Fps per inche of barrell length.
The Garande Is a little complexe for an all around weapon.
Right. But 50 or 100 are two different things when we talking about 4 inches. It's one thing to lose 200fps and another one to lose 400 fps from what, 2750fps?
The Garande Is a little complexe for an all around weapon.
:) Garande!? M1A - civilian version of M14, not M1 Garand.
Didn't I say you should be more attentive... :)
Anyway, what I am considering is basically what you had or maybe even an upgraded version.
miko
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Right. But 50 or 100 are two different things when we talking about 4 inches. It's one thing to lose 200fps and another one to lose 400 fps from what, 2750fps
Well Your FPS are going to depend on a couple of things really.
1) Bullett weight
2) Barrel lenght
3)chamber seating depth.
4)ambeint temp
5)wind
6)primer seating depth
7)bullet seating dept
8)rate of twist in barrel
10) and is weapon gas operated semi auto or bolt action
Now as your choice of weapons.
givin your limitations because of your location I think you have choosen the right weapon.
I would personaly go with the Longer barrel But thats just me.
And I would go with a heavy match type grag barrel as well.
Chances are you are not going to be humping 20miles thrue the woods:D
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[
I couldn't care less for hunting but in case I ever do, I can have a bolt rifle, sure.
What I am talking about is a paramilitary/survival rifle that would be good for combat, for medium-range 4-600 yards sniping and could also be used for hunting in emergency. The rifle one would grab if it was the only one he could take with him.
Hunting pretty much means .308, not .223. .223 does not fragment beyong 200 yards, so it will not drop a dog, let alone a deer. With people it may be fine as a wounded enemy is still out of action but a deer that did not die in place is a wasted shot.
M1A was successfully used as a battle rifle and as a decent sniper rifle. No AR-15/AR-10 would ever compare in reliability. M14 is the same as M1A except full auto, which I do not care about, and illegal to own.
Barrel weight is what determines the stiffness and thus the magnitude/consistency of harmonics. Also inertial stability. The heavier the barrel, the better. Even 10/22 target shooters use .92 barrel to shoot .22lr at 100 yards.
[
miko [/B]
1: Why do you need a paramilitary rifle? Planning something? You can do everything you need to do with a bolt gun. And besides, just because a rifle is capable of a 600 yard shot I seriously doubt you are. 99% of shooters have no buisness shooting at anything other than paper at that kind of range.
2: Yes the 223 will fragment out past 200 yards, varmit shooters use the 223 out to 400+yards no problems. You have the bullets wrong, you don't want a bullet to fragment on a deer, it will never reach the vitals. But I do agree the 308 would be better.
Crap, have a call, finish this later.
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One of my targets with the 223 i built
300yards.
I let one get away from me.
(http://home.comcast.net/~c.hambleton/wsb/media/group/logo_org_pub.jpg)
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Originally posted by crabofix
ok, so they have abandond the 308 win?
A lot of the U.S. special operations snipers have been using .300 WMag for at least a couple of years. The 'regular' (meaning only that they were part of/attached to non-special operations - or 'regular' units) snipers that I have seen were using .308 'still'.
According to the 10th Mountain and 82nd Airborne snipers I talked to (on occasion), the Canadian snipers were supremely welcome anywhere and at any time not only because they were great at their job but also because they were the only snipers in that entire TF that brought something more powerful than .308 for sniping.
Some of the snipers in the various special operations units (from several different Nations) had some .300 WMag and/or .50 weapons available but they weren't really available for 'attachment' to the 10th Mountain, etc. (their own guys needed them for the operations they were tasked with).
In terms of hitting power at range, I had one sniper explain to me that the .300 WMag is to the .308 like the .308 is to the 5.56. I don't know if that's correct, and I've never used a .300 WMag rifle, but this guy had a good reputation and appeared to know what he was talking about. He was also 'the guy' to ask about wound ballistics as he was a special operations medic who had been to a sniper school. :)
Mike/wulfie
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Max effective range for the mose part of the 308 nato is800meters
The Win 300mag is good for 100-1300 meters in the hands of a good shooter.
The 338 lapua Is good up to a mile on human targets.
I believe that the US still sees the 50 Cal as a hard target interdiction weapon.(to take out trucks helos on the pad , and unexploaded bombs)
Although I did see in Irag On the TV US Marines shooting at bad guys with them
:D
And the standard issue for the Amry is the M-24
For the Marines It Is the M-40
Both are 7.62mm 308 nato.
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medicboy: Why do you need a paramilitary rifle? Planning something? You can do everything you need to do with a bolt gun.
You must have not been reading anything I was posting here on other topics. :)
I believe there is a real chance of economic downturn that would cause breakdown of monetary system, civil unrest and breakdown of order.
A few thousand dollars investment in supplies/weapons is a cheap insurance that would significantly increase the chance of a family survival.
That is why I need a battle rifle. A few actually, since my friends are mostly lax in that regard. If they show up on my doorstep (in my summer house upstate), they will have to contend with spare SKS.
And besides, just because a rifle is capable of a 600 yard shot I seriously doubt you are.
I know that. I served in combat and I was a decent shot but I am quite realistic. Nevertheless, a rifle capable of 600 yards will be usefull even if I will not attempt to shoot further than 300.
2: Yes the 223 will fragment out past 200 yards, varmit shooters use the 223 out to 400+yards no problems./b]
Only specially-made varmint bullets will fragment below 2600fps. Those bullets are made weak-jacketed and and thus cannot be spun as fast, cannot be shot out of 1/7 and 1/9 military rifles. Theymust spin at 1/12 and so cannot be heavier than 50 grain to keep stability. They fragment upon contact, not inside, so will be ineffective for general purposes or deer hunting.
I am not stocking all kinds of ammo for my Mini-14, just a couple thousands mill-spec M193 rounds.
miko
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wulfie: one sniper explain to me that the .300 WMag is to the .308 like the .308 is to the 5.56. I don't know if that's correct, and I've never used a .300 WMag rifle
Just compare the case capacities of .308 and .300 WMag!
.308 Win (7.62x51 NATO)
Case capacity 54 grs water.
Throws 150 grn bullet at 2820 fps, energy 2648 ft-lbs.
.300 Winchester Mag
Case capacity 88 grs water.
Throws 180 grn bullet at 2960 fps, energy 3501 ft-lbs.
You ment Winchester Magnum, not Weatherby Magnum, right? Weatherby is even bigger (98 grs water, 4316 ft-lbs).
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
[
Only specially-made varmint bullets will fragment below 2600fps. Those bullets are made weak-jacketed and and thus cannot be spun as fast, cannot be shot out of 1/7 and 1/9 military rifles. Theymust spin at 1/12 and so cannot be heavier than 50 grain to keep stability. They fragment upon contact, not inside, so will be ineffective for general purposes or deer hunting.
I am not stocking all kinds of ammo for my Mini-14, just a couple thousands mill-spec M193 rounds.
miko [/B]
Well you know your ballistics!
Like i said before I think you have choosen a fine weapon for you stated purpose.
I might add you may If you dont have alreay to invest iin some reloading stuff Press dies and the like.
Cheaper to shoot and you can taylor your rounds to your rifle.
Good luck.
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LOL the weatherby 300 mag hurts the shooter more than the intended victim:D
Just kidding It is an awsum round that shoot flat and fast.
My dad is leaving me a 1968 German weatherby 300mad mkv
In mint condition less than 50 rounds thru the gun.
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mrblack: I might add you may If you dont have alreay to invest iin some reloading stuff Press dies and the like.
Cheaper to shoot and you can taylor your rounds to your rifle.
Good luck.
On one hand. On the other hand I have an incredibly active 2-year old boy growing up who will probably find a way to the stuff, especially if he takes after daddy, which he seems to. I love tinkering and would really like to reload but the jury is still out whether I should risk it.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
medicboy: Why do you need a paramilitary rifle? Planning something? You can do everything you need to do with a bolt gun.
You must have not been reading anything I was posting here on other topics. :)
I believe there is a real chance of economic downturn that would cause breakdown of monetary system, civil unrest and breakdown of order.
A few thousand dollars investment in supplies/weapons is a cheap insurance that would significantly increase the chance of a family survival.
That is why I need a battle rifle. A few actually, since my friends are mostly lax in that regard. If they show up on my doorstep (in my summer house upstate), they will have to contend with spare SKS.
And besides, just because a rifle is capable of a 600 yard shot I seriously doubt you are.
I know that. I served in combat and I was a decent shot but I am quite realistic. Nevertheless, a rifle capable of 600 yards will be usefull even if I will not attempt to shoot further than 300.
2: Yes the 223 will fragment out past 200 yards, varmit shooters use the 223 out to 400+yards no problems./b]
Only specially-made varmint bullets will fragment below 2600fps. Those bullets are made weak-jacketed and and thus cannot be spun as fast, cannot be shot out of 1/7 and 1/9 military rifles. Theymust spin at 1/12 and so cannot be heavier than 50 grain to keep stability. They fragment upon contact, not inside, so will be ineffective for general purposes or deer hunting.
I am not stocking all kinds of ammo for my Mini-14, just a couple thousands mill-spec M193 rounds.
miko
You know even if we don't agree on everything, I like the way you think..:D
Have you shot those mil spec rounds through that mini 14???? Be careful, there is an actual difference in milspec rounds and the factory Rem 223 that mini was chambered for, higher pressure in the mil spec stuff for one... Be careful!
My 22-250 has a 1/12" twist barrel and shoots 55gr under MOA, I admit it does like the 40-45gr better though, 0.26" 5 shot groups.:D
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Well I dont see use all taking showers together any time soon:D
But atleast we are getting on the same page here.
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Originally posted by miko2d
On one hand. On the other hand I have an incredibly active 2-year old boy growing up who will probably find a way to the stuff, especially if he takes after daddy, which he seems to. I love tinkering and would really like to reload but the jury is still out whether I should risk it.
miko
Miko, the only real dangerous components of reloading are the primers and powder. Just put them up in a locked cabinet and don't worry about it. Set up your reloaders in a shed in the backyard with a lock or put them in the garage and lock the door. Either way, it should keep a toddler out of them.
I reload and enjoy it.
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medicboy: Have you shot those mil spec rounds through that mini 14???? Be careful, there is an actual difference in milspec rounds and the factory Rem 223 that mini was chambered for, higher pressure in the mil spec stuff for one... Be careful!
Mini-14 was designed specifically for Mill-spec ammo. Bill Ruger hoped that it would get accepted by military and it is used a lot by law-enforcement and correctional facility personnel.
Mini -14 with a 5-rd clip that does not protrude below the stock, no pistol grops, etc. does not look different from an inoffensive hunting rifle. It was also never used by any military. Because of its inoffensive look and history it not banned in many locales (NYC, Kalifornia) where everything else is banned.
I know that many people consider it P.O.S. - which is undeserved. true, it is not as accurate as AR-15 - mostly by design. It has pretty loose tolerances that will keep it shooting after a mudbath and the barrel is thin (.56"?) that makes it lighter.
At the ranges where .223 ammo is lethal (below 200 yards) it is quite accurate, especially with $70 worth of home-administered adjustments (recoil buffer, smaller gas bushing, muzzle brake and possibly a bedding job).
miko