Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: zuii on April 15, 2009, 11:09:33 PM
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A humble wish for KI84 Variants
KI84ib
KI84ic
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A humble wish for KI84 Variants
KI84ib
KI84ic
Amen, I would enjoy both variants... :pray
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I`m in Japan now and will try to get some data and pics. . .the Ki-84 could use some love - a little more speed and a bit more resistance to simply shedding peices in flight. . .
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Ruah if you can find your way into archives with Ki84, or other JPN airforce or navy documentation.. HTC might be interested.
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didn't the ki84-1c have 2 x 30mm? 's :O
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I would love to see more variants of the venerable Ki-84!
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NO MORE KI'S !!!! We can't get zuii out of the one we have ! :rofl
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I second that motion! More Ki84s please!
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I`m in Japan now and will try to get some data and pics. . .the Ki-84 could use some love - a little more speed and a bit more resistance to simply shedding peices in flight. . .
Would be great if you could find some production numbers! I've looked and can't really find any definative answers.
I also can't find anything about the shedding of parts.
I have found articles that mention the "weakened" wheel struts, but absolutely nothing else on parts falling off the plane.
This problem was never mentioned when the plane was tested by the US using high grade fuel either.
While I'm sure that the incessant Allied bombing of Japan had a detrimental effect on the quality of some of the planes produced near the end of the war, It makes me wonder why we don't see these same quality control issues with any of the German planes.
Would love to see the KI-84lb added.
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It makes me wonder why we don't see these same quality control issues with any of the German planes.
Germany had a far more advanced steel industry and a far more streamlined aircraft production chain. They were just a more advanced Industrial nation then Japan was. That and they had more designer talent in their aircraft Industry.
The aircraft production industry was always far more stressed in Japan then Germany's was. Japan had fewer factories making their engines and were easily targeted by Yank bombers. Boy, I could go on and on. Heres some facts and figures that shows what a bad decision it was for Japan to go to war with the industrial Juggernaut called America. http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm
"Desperation" is not normally a good climate for quality control of precision machine parts for an aircraft industry.
Lastly I would hazard that Germany over-ran, and took into Empire, relatively advanced Euro countries whose production capabilities could be easily absorbed into the greater Reich. Who did Japan over-run? Borneo? Philippines? China? Malaysia? Absorbing these countries might have given the Japs some long term security regarding resources but none of them gave Japan immediate , first world Industrial production capability to absorb into their own.
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Yes more Ki84s please! +1 :aok
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Ruah if you can find your way into archives with Ki84, or other JPN airforce or navy documentation.. HTC might be interested.
I can get access to archives due to being somewhat connected in academia here (I graduated from Kyoto U. <formerly Kyoto Imperial U.>) but if anyone knows where to look (specific libraries and archives) then it will make the search a LOT easier. I`ll ask around.
On a side note: I don`t think handicapping the IJN/A airplanes due to late war quality control is good for AH. The planes should be balanced with perfect quality control in mind - this would mean the KI84 would get - self-sealing fuel tanks (not as good as the Ironworks planes but its significant), 12 inch armor protection for the pilots (if anyone noticed how even getting a scratch in a KI will wound the pilot 80% of the time?), and a top speed 425 mph or so on the deck. . .not as fast as the U.S. counterparts, but its a lot faster then it is now (but it does not go much faster at altitude. .. which is where the Ki is weak). The airplane shredding to pieces is just ridiculous.
the idea of having 2 20mm and 2 30mm cannons on a Ki84-Ic (i think) sounds like a lot of fun. . .even if its a a lot of firepower in such an acrobatic plane (but a possible IJ perk plane?)
TBH - I think having the KI84 variations would be far more valuable then the N1k2 which never really saw action (and the stats for that plane are really academic).
sorry for the rant.
Ruah
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I don't recall any wartime prop fighter doing 400TAS or more on the deck.
I can get access to archives but if anyone knows where to look (specific libraries and archives) then it will make the search a LOT easier.
Call or email Pyro at HTC. :)
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I can get access to archives due to being somewhat connected in academia here (I graduated from Kyoto U. <formerly Kyoto Imperial U.>) but if anyone knows where to look (specific libraries and archives) then it will make the search a LOT easier. I`ll ask around.
On a side note: I don`t think handicapping the IJN/A airplanes due to late war quality control is good for AH. The planes should be balanced with perfect quality control in mind - this would mean the KI84 would get - self-sealing fuel tanks (not as good as the Ironworks planes but its significant), 12 inch armor protection for the pilots (if anyone noticed how even getting a scratch in a KI will wound the pilot 80% of the time?), and a top speed 425 mph or so on the deck. . .not as fast as the U.S. counterparts, but its a lot faster then it is now (but it does not go much faster at altitude. .. which is where the Ki is weak). The airplane shredding to pieces is just ridiculous.
the idea of having 2 20mm and 2 30mm cannons on a Ki84-Ic (i think) sounds like a lot of fun. . .even if its a a lot of firepower in such an acrobatic plane (but a possible IJ perk plane?)
TBH - I think having the KI84 variations would be far more valuable then the N1k2 which never really saw action (and the stats for that plane are really academic).
sorry for the rant.
Ruah
BOOM!! We have a winner!!
Well said!! :rock
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425 on the deck in what parallel universe?
We started out with a plane that had no WEP and a max boost of 200. Through extensive researching into historical documents (in Japanese, no less) one forum member supplied HTC with more accurate numbers, giving us our current performance in-game, not to mention the addition of 450-boost WEP for 3 minutes.
Don't believe everything you read, ESPECIALLY about certain Japanese planes and the propoganda that surrounds them on the Internet. Case in point the Ki84. Another case in point the Ki-100 (just to whet your whistle).
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From what i understand
Ki-84-Ia 2 × 12.7mm and 2 × Ho-5 cannons in wings
Ki-84-Ib 4 × 20mm Ho-5 cannons
Ki-84-Ic 2 × 20mm Ho-5 cannons and 2 × 30mm Ho-155 cannons in wings. (ouch)
zuii
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Can we trust Japanese data, on a Japanese fighter, in the last glory days of the Japanese Empire?
Call or email Pyro at HTC. :)
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Can we trust Japanese data, on a Japanese fighter, in the last glory days of the Japanese Empire?
It seems pretty reliable so far. The Ki-84 and N1K2 in AH are based on Japanese data, not the US data from higher octane tests.
Mind you, the Ki-84-Ic is not going to happen as it did not see combat and only had a few examples produced. The Ki-84-Ib is reasonable though as it did see combat and about 500 were built.
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Can we trust Japanese data, on a Japanese fighter, in the last glory days of the Japanese Empire?
Can we trust German data? Soviet data? British Data? American Data?
Really I'd be more inclined to trust the data of a country that was about to be decimated (why would they want to exaggerate? What would they have to gain?), than data of one of the countries that would be the major players in a post-war world of lies and propaganda.
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German data? Within reason
US data? Most of the time (in relation to their own planes, there are exceptions)
RAF data? Most of the time.
Soviet data? No. Their heads were often at risk of receiving multiple bullet awards if things didn't pander to Stalin's sociopathing delusions, so they said whatever they had to to please him. They re-wrote history to please him, and he believed it. Even things being unearthed today are suspect if the sources are Soviet. The corruption was totally indoctrinated into the system.
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Let me elaborate. It's not the STATE of the country that produces the info. It's the reliability and trustworthiness of the government publishing the info. Hitler was totally insane, but his air leaders weren't. Many of the LW served their country and their arm of the military, NOT Hitler. So when the reports came out they were for people that needed to know the truth.
As opposed to Soviet reports, where everybody gave up any moral compass to save their collective skins. Throwing untrained bodies into the meat grinder was their main tactic and they did it with relish.
Now the Japanese.... Tough example. On the one had they had so little common sense and sense of reason that they thought charging machine guns while unarmed, for some guy 2000mi away sitting on a throne, was their duty. On the other hand, they understood their position with a bit of defeatism, and knew they were up against a massive enemy, so their military leaders were more likely to tell the truth. IMO you could go either way, but a lot of info seems to be pretty good quality from Japanese sources.
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There were also some variants made with wooden parts (due to the obvious production issues japan had in the last few years of the war), again i have no reliable data on if any of those were fielded, but if so, would be cool to have those versions added, though they might blow up like a zero soaked in lighter fluid and covered with yard trimmings.
zuii
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KI84 is great plane, I would love to see anything that would just add more to the 84. +1
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425 on the deck in what parallel universe?
We started out with a plane that had no WEP and a max boost of 200. Through extensive researching into historical documents (in Japanese, no less) one forum member supplied HTC with more accurate numbers, giving us our current performance in-game, not to mention the addition of 450-boost WEP for 3 minutes.
Don't believe everything you read, ESPECIALLY about certain Japanese planes and the propoganda that surrounds them on the Internet. Case in point the Ki84. Another case in point the Ki-100 (just to whet your whistle).
For sure, but the figure is from the US Navy, not from the Japanese. The Japanese figures are much higher actually. . .like near jet speeds lol.
The point is this - in this game, all the planes use the best fuel, have ideal construction materials and quality controls, and are fighting with their best colors on. This plane was better then the P51D except above 10k/15k and this fact is recognized by the U.S. sources and pilots. What hurt the plane was poor quality control (which should not be a factor in AH imo), poor quality of pilots post 43 (which is not a factor in AH since we keep coming back to life), and a lack of significant numbers deployed. So we agree on this. . . all I'm saying is, the top speed and durability of the plane is really nurfed too much. . .the KI-84 was one of the best planes made in the war. Its up there with the best all the countries had.
there is a pdf file out there for the 84 by Aerodetail, 024 - KI 84 Frank at -- http://www.valentina.sk/archiv/archiv.php (they have some good stuff here. . .) have a look. I'm off to the archives today to find some documentation. . . What I am trying to push for is more quality control for the plane in the game, not a massive buff to its top speed. . .just a light boost in speed (take the wep if its not accurate - make it like the YAK), a lot more durability in terms of pilot protection and self sealing tanks and that it stop falling apart on dives. . .its a good plane as it is so too much would make it imba. And yes, the variations.
Ruah
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Not all planes use the best fuel types they had available.. Not nearly.
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425mph was the figure the US got using 100 octane fuel at about 20,000ft, not at sea level.
The Japanese figues I have seen are all lower than that, ranging from 388mph to suggestions of slightly over 400mph depending on the version of the engine.
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425mph was the figure the US got using 100 octane fuel at about 20,000ft, not at sea level.
I've understood that the US tests were carried out with 140 octane fuel.
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I've understood that the US tests were carried out with 140 octane fuel.
I doubt the engine could take those boost settings. As I recall it was designed, optimisitcally, for 100 octane.
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I doubt the engine could take those boost settings. As I recall it was designed, optimisitcally, for 100 octane.
An engine doesn't have to be pushed beyond of what it can take even if the fuel used is higher octane. According to Leszek A. Wieliczko's KI-84 book which seems quite well researched the fuel was 140 octane. In the Internet, 100 octane seems to be mentioned as often as the 140 octane figure.
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An engine doesn't have to be pushed beyond of what it can take even if the fuel used is higher octane. According to Leszek A. Wieliczko's KI-84 book which seems quite well researched the fuel was 140 octane. In the Internet, 100 octane seems to be mentioned as often as the 140 octane figure.
Ah.
That leads to the next question, what were the boost settings it ran at for the US tests?
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Ah.
That leads to the next question, what were the boost settings it ran at for the US tests?
The source I mentioned says that the americans measured take-off power as 1970hp at 3000rpm and that with "WEP" the engine put out 2050hp at 762m (2500ft). Japanese listed Ha-45-21's take-off power to be 1990hp at 3000rpm/500mmHg (with ADI, of course).
Americans didn't really need the ADI considering they had high octane fuel in use and AFAIK didn't therefore use it. So I'm assuming this
"american" "WEP" setting is just an overboost powersetting (unfortunately no MAP is given) made possible by the higher octane fuel and the same thing for the take-off setting naturally.
The 388mph/624km/h figure comes from the initial test flights of the pre-production aircraft equipped with 1800hp Ha-45-11 engines. Only small number of actual production aircraft were equipped with them as the next engine (Ha-45-12) quickly came available running at 1825hp for take-off.
Later series aircraft were fitted with the Ha-45-21. So, with 87 octane Japanese avgas and ADI a production Ha-45-21 powered KI-84 could have approached the figures achieved in US testing as it falls only 60hp short of the power setting used in the american testing but in practise this probably rarely was the case because of the technical problems like the fuel pressure fluctuation.
EDIT/Just to avoid confusion I was here talking about the KI-84-Ia (actually, KI-84a is the correct Japanese designation))/EDIT
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I would dearly like to know which engine the Ki-84 in AH has.
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Well I think the performance pretty clearly suggests that it's either Ha-45-11 or Ha-45-12.
KI-84b would, with it's 2000hp Ha-45-25 really approach the american testing figures. By the Ha-45-23, the fuel pressure problems had been solved. Of course the plane remained unreliable as a whole obviously, but that shouldn't be a problem in AH.
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As for the AH modeling, I don't recall the forum member's name, but he's Japanese and researched extensively many original documents in his native language and provided them to HTC, including translations.
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Love to know his/her e-mail address since I've got a lot of the wartime documents from the central archives coming to me now (it took some convincing to get them). . . all in all there is a long list of late war IJA/N planes I would like to see introduced. . .but the 84 is a good place to start. Its more out of interest then anything else. . .so whether it changes the plane in the game is secondary to getting all the documents and copying them.
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Love to know his/her e-mail address since I've got a lot of the wartime documents from the central archives coming to me now (it took some convincing to get them). . . all in all there is a long list of late war IJA/N planes I would like to see introduced. . .but the 84 is a good place to start. Its more out of interest then anything else. . .so whether it changes the plane in the game is secondary to getting all the documents and copying them.
It might have been Busa.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,134252.msg1452047.html#msg1452047
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So according to busa/pyro the production -21s were derated from their original specs (1990hp) to the power levels of the -11 and -12 which is understandable considering the numerous problems with the engines. I wonder if -23 and -25 were derated to -11/-12 -levels aswell. The source I mentioned states that the actual production number for the KI-84b is not known but it is very probable it is not higher than 10% of all KI-84s built. Only known photographs are taken from examples that served in the 104th Sentai.
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gawd, you guys are so smart and i just want more cannons! :)
zuii
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:aok +1
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Hello, this is busa01.
About Ki84-1b
The number of production of Ki84-1b is misunderstood.
Those numbers of production were about 100 pcs slightly.
They were produced only at the Nakajima aviation Ota factory.
The manufacture number is after the Ota factory of No.3000.
About 2700pcs Ki84 was produced at the Ota factory.
That is, manufacture numbers are not consecutive numbers.
Ki84-1b carried out parallel production with Ki84-1a after the spring of 1945.
Therefore, there is few production.
And about 730pcs Ki84 was produced at the Utsunomiya factory.
And Ki84-1c was not mass-produced.
I want Ki84-1b to appear in AH.
But at present, I do not demand it of Pyro.
Because, the Japanese airplanes in AH has many correction problems.
It is one of the reasons many Japanese players left AH.
I want them to be solved.
I do not want it to develop into political diplomacy to add Ki84-1b.
But I think that it is very easy to add it as Perk plane.
Thank you for reading my poor English.
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Hello, Ruah and all.
This is busa01.
About the performance of Ki84
I do not want Japanese airplanes to be set to over model.
And I do not want them to be set to under model, either.
The data by which propaganda is contained are treated carefully.
However, since Japan of those days is secretiveness, there are few such data.
The performance data of Ki84 mainly used official data, the pilot handbook, and the maintenance manual.
The pilot handbook was not exhibited by books and Web.
I prepared specially, in order to present HTC.
Official data were got from the following four places.
Japan Center for Asian Historical Records.
National Archives of Japan.
National Institute for Defense Studies (Ministry of Defense).
Yasukuni shrine.
In addition, 80 general selling books were made reference.
Incidentally "ISBN 4-05-603547-1" is a magazine about Ki84 which I trust most now. (Japanese magazine) .
The author is my acquaintance.
And he is the friend of "Pkun (AH player)."
The performance of Ki84 in AH is simulating the situation in 1944 - 1945.
The octane numbers of the used gasoline are 91, 92, and 95.
The installed engine is derated engine of Ha-45-21 (NK9-H).
In IJNAF, it was called NK9-H-B. (NK9-H B spec) It was the completely same spec. as Ha-45-12.
Ki84 and N1K2-J installed the same engine.
The same was said of the operation restrictions. (MP+250mm/hg RPM2900) However, IJNAF set up WEP (Over boost operation).
I want detailed contents to read the thread which Moot quoted.
Thank you for reading my poor English.
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Hello, Ruah and all.
This is busa01.
By the way, "C6N carrier recon plane" has two performance tables.
They are two kinds of performances in which the state where NK9-H was installed, and NK9-H-B was installed.
This data shows the very interesting result.
The maximum speed of Ki84 is 631 km/h / 6150m (624 km/h / 5000m).
The maximum speed of N1K2-J is 583 km/h / 3000m, 611 km/h / 6000m. (The only official data indicated by the pilot handbook) .
The maximum speed of C6N (MP+250) is 580 km/h / 3000m, 609 km/h / 6100m.
The prediction performance in MP+350 of Ki84 is 660 km/h / 6000m.
Un-official data 660 km/h of Ki84-1b / 6000m.
The maximum speed of C6N (MP+350) is 635-654 km/h / 6000m.
The prediction performance in (MP+350) of N1K2-J is 644-653 km/h / 6000m.
These results do not cause collision.
The aero dynamics software which I am using did not cause collision.
Historical investigation about the performance of Ki84 in AH was performed carefully.
It will not be necessary to change until the data of special new discovery come out.
The special performance of Ki84 in IJAAF Aero Examination Department will be operated by MP+350.
Incidentally there was gasoline of the octane number 100 also in a Japanese mainland.
Probably, this performance of Ki84 was also demonstrated with the gasoline of the octane number 100.
In N1K2-J, the gasoline of the octane number 100 was used at the time of Kikai island air superiority mission.
The pilot who carried out the missions said that the performance of N1K improved wonderfully.
And it said further.
Probably, many of my war comrades survived, if it could always use this gasoline.
I told this fact to HTC.
But I said that I did not need to take such a special situation into consideration.
By the way, in Japan's examination, the airplane imported from Germany and the United States did not demonstrate catalog spec in many cases.
Since fuel and oil were imports, they are not those causes.
In many cases, the cause was the cause of weight regulation.
Moreover, when the airplane of IJNAF was examined by IJAAF, the performance improved.
Those causes were also the causes of weight regulation.
IJNAF was the Strategic Air Command. (imagined enemy is the United States of America) .
IJAAF was Tactical Air Command . (imagined enemy is the Soviet Union) .
IJNAF assumed Full road, when engaged.
When IJAAF was engaged, fuel loading assumed about 6 - 70 percent.
for example, Ki 61-1a and b performed performance measurement at about 60 percent of fuel loading
This regulation in IJAAF was changeover by 1943.
Ki84 plan started at these days.
Although Ki84 was nomal road 3600kg, but it performed performance measurement by full road 3750kg.
By the way, Ruah.
If you can speak Japanese, I will want to talk with you.
And if you are staying in Japan even now, each other data will be exchangeable.
Thank you for reading my poor English.