Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Special Events General => Topic started by: StSanta on October 28, 2000, 02:55:00 PM
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With Afrika coming up, my withdrawal syndomres will be stilled by that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Med was supposed to be fun, but high alt monkeying is not for me - it is for some, so best of luck and have good fun. I know at least some other dedicated LW pilots feel the same.
3 missions, all of 'um met high numerically superior enemies. Two succesful missions, one not.
Let's see what the allies can do when they have to fight on equal terms. See ya all in Afrika! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 10-28-2000).]
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I agree... its stupid having only 3 people that will fly A8 then getting jumped by 10 spits... gemme a break--im not sacraficing my saturdays for this again.
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Lol you mean when you rob the allies of their historical advantages ?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh and pls note the (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Still i can see its not gonna be to everybodys taste Santa but then neither is the mission loaded as per orders for a long range intercept and yes it showed max fuel and DT, only to find you got 25% fuel and loaded for Jabo my idea of fun either.
From then on i declared i could not take it seriously at all and just went Jabo for a little fun.
Err you had as many as 3 pilots ???
Surprisingly the 94th fighter group P38,s put up a disadvantage of err let me see, oh yes 2 pilots. How the hell can you play squad tactics with only 2 pilots flying ?
Personally i dont think the game should launch until all the walkons etc are assigned, i would not be surprised if Wolf saw the numbers of pilots in each squad and just erupted, and i appreciate Busc/Camo assigned some over but mebbe too late for Wolf to see.
Wolf ordered us all to abort game and land asap which most of us did i believe.
Considering the superior alt, dweeb, monkey planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) the allies have, i have to say the LW dont seem to have anything like the trouble filling there seats that the allies suffer.
Take that statement as read there is no hidden meaning or accusations hiding in it.
And apologies cos i know i strayed from the original thread.
Have fun wherever you fly Guys.
[This message has been edited by 214thCavalier (edited 10-28-2000).]
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Yah cav, I hear you.
It's just I am not undmerstanding what the med league is supposed to simulate. Fighting in WWII was more interdiction type strikes there, not strategic high alt bombing.
Which is why I'll like Afrika (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<S!>
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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hello:
Cavalear, My getting ticked off and ordering our plane to land had nothing to do with the numbers. the reason I order the allied planes down was the set up.
As I spent all week trying to get info on what planes and how many planes I would have. then sending out orders via e-mail to the squad CO's. then replacing squad CO's, as some of them had quit. and I was allowed to move squads, one from last week that was suppose to have moved but did not do to the mission planner, so it was suppose to have moved this week, plus one for my free move.
as well as one for the field capture.
so the typhoon squad should have started at A15, the planner put them at A11.
the 39th fighter group P38's should have started at A5, the planner had them at A11.
the RAF 234 should have started at A15 where it has alway6s been, was now starting at A!* do to the planner.
the 43rd spit squad that as far as I new was grounded this week because its starting field had been captured last week was now upping at A15 in the planner. I received an e-mail on friday night at about 12:30 my time telling me the 43rd spit squad was allowed to fly, because we had captured a enemy field. lots of time to let the squad CO know his squad was flying in frame two.
as for the P38 squads, I did not know there where three of them as it was in the planner.
back to the spits for a sec. why would i want bombs on my spitfires and why the 303 guns and not the .50 cals.
the B17's with 100% fuel will need atleast two hours just to get enough alt to put them over the acks, so why take 100% fuel.
so with all this, I ordered the allied planes down. and when I told busc I had ordered the allied planes down, I was suddenly booted.
did busc boot me, I dont know, but if not, then the timimg was perfect I guess.
Now I have sent busc an e-mail, hopfully we can get this all work out. and if he would rather I tep down as Commanding office of the allied forces, then I will. But I am not putting the time in to set up the all the squad's mission just to have it screw because of a mistake. and yes I am looking at it as a mistake when it comes to the planner.
I do know that busc was just trying to help with the planner, but sorry, he is not flying for the allies and does not know what the allies are doing.
I will wait to hear from busc.
wolf37
<edit> oops, sorry off topic there.
Santa, the allied planes where better at higher alt, so why can't they fly there in the Med league. it is suppose to be as real as it can get for a sim right.
wolf37
[This message has been edited by wolf37 (edited 10-28-2000).]
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Yea Wolf i can confirm you told us all to NOT use the mission planner b4 we upped cos you said it was full of errors, but i believe when you mentioned it to Busc he replied something like we have to use it ?
If that is in anyway wrong please ignore it but from memory i believe its correct.
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I think I'll be joining you Santa. Getting jumped by 10 Spits at 30k isnt my idea of fun.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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hi all:
cavalear, you are right.
wolf37
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wolf, the reason is: it din't happen that way in the Med in WWII. Simple as that.
There weren't constant 33k hi alt fighter engagements.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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I flew totaly alone with my squad bounce a me 109 flight and a 205 flight no kills landed at 4 what a fun.
not much allied showed up
High alt. fight ?
hey this is AH we don't have a solid cloud deck to escape and other reallife stuff.
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Santa, what allied fighters where at 33k, and how do you know they where at 33k unless you where 33k as well.
wolf37
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StStanta - quit BS, I shot down both you and Nath – there was no alt monkeying in either engagement.
We were at 25K when I saw 7 dots slightly higher. I was separated by 5-6K from the main group by then and was scared toejamless that 7 big ugly loudmouthed 190s would kill me before any help can get even in range.
There was absolutely no question of you being "jumped by 10 alt monkies Spits" ("…look mom those 10 big bad Spits jumped me…") - there was no 10 Spits in the vicinity to begin with and you had slight alt advantage at the start.
I dropped the tank and hit WEP trying to get at least co-alt with you. 5 190s just sailed past me totally ignoring lonely defenseless Spitfire (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). 2 stayed separated form the main group - I wasn't happy about being sandwiched between 2 groups all by myself but winged over and went after the last 190 of the first group... In just a few seconds there was a high alt (20K+) furball in progress with 190s generally dragging the fight down.
I know I should have filmed the whole encounter - I will next time to stop all this nonsense arguments about "alt monkies" and "being jumped at 33K". That film would include another 190 I tried to chase after – he’d just pointed his nose downwards and disengaged (SpitIX can’t catch a running A8, even in a dive)…
The only ones who I saw "being jumped" were Strauss and his wingmen - they were low - and got "jumped" by a patrol of 4 Spits with kbman as FL. They fought at a disadvantage and died - Strauss scissored in front of me, I saw hit sprites all over his airframe, should have filmed it - duh! Our patrol was flying towards F19 at 25K initially.
I flew 2 Saturdays so far - last Sat was a mess to start with but then I had loads of fun. I'm yet to get a scratch on my Spitfire, I claimed 2 109s and an assist in the previous frame and 4 190s an another assist in the last frame.
Advantage – disadvantage – who’s saying the war has to be fought on equal terms? 234th eventually rolled with 3 pilots out of 8, SkyRdr had to parachute few miles off 18 and walked <S!> back to base not to lose a pilot on top of the lost airframe. Nash had computer crash and got back on-line ~1.5 hours into the frame. Camel ditched, I got discoed 10 minutes before the frame was supposed to be over – couldn’t connect to AH at all after this.
I didn’t design the event – I just fly in it and I accept that there would be all sorts of mishaps along the way. I wish more people would stop expecting "equality of terms" and "fairness" – life’s generally not fair (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
p.s. Just read AAR report for the LW side - flight of Tiffies got almost wiped out - I hear no complaints about it...
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lynx
13th RAF
(Med - 234th RAF)
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 10-30-2000).]
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stsanta ur gonna face the same old probs in the Afrika corps scenario,
I'm sure about that.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322:
stsanta ur gonna face the same old probs in the Afrika corps scenario,
I'm sure about that.
15k alt limit in the Afrika Korps scenario.
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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I would suggest that you leave your attitudes and agendas at the door before you enter the Afrika Corps arena.
This is about having fun - not personal vendettas.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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15K altitude limit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
that's really....
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322:
that's really....
yes, bug, finish that phrase...
That's really REALISTIC!
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Although I can understand the frustrations of the fights being high, in no way is an alt cap "realistic." How is an alt cap any different than saying "The p51 is too fast for my 190, therefore there will be a speed limit of 350 mph?" During the 3 sessions I've flown in we were jumped by high 109s on all 3 occasions. The last time I flew Zigrat announced a cap of 15k. CaveJ, myself and many others repeated this on the country channel. (Have it all on film.) Not 5 minutes later our spit squadron was jumped by c205s that were at least 25k. Cave announced on open channel that the LW had broken the alt cap rule, then Zig said there was no alt cap! He then went on to explain that there was supposedly some "strange wind layer" at 15k that would stall your plane if you tried to climb through it.
Historically many allied planes enjoyed advantages over the axis planes at high altitudes. (P47 vs 190, p51 vs 109, p38, etc) Perhaps the allied should say that the spit9 is slower than the 109s at 15k, therefore all 109s must never exceed 330mph. My point is no matter what you do, there will always be arguments and counterpoints. An alt cap is probably the most idiotic idea I've ever heard of. How is it realistic?!? Did Dowding tell his spit pilots during the BOB, "We have a treaty with the Germans, no planes shall fly above 15k ft?" I doubt it.
LW pilots, I can understand your frustrations here, but this was a historical advantage for the allied planes. You have the advantage of speed, climb, and acceleration with the 109s. The A series 190s did have poor performance above 20k, this was a historical weakpoint of the design. Trying to impose an alt cap because your plane isn't at an advantage is just silly. The main limitation here is the fact that there are no clouds. If we had clouds the fighters would be forced to fly under them to spot the bombers heading in under the clouds.
I will be unable to fly tonight. I have things I must get done tonight that cannot wait.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Ok Bloom, then explain to me how You would get the fights down to historic levels in an event?
Because historically, both BOB and the north African campaign were fought at what you would consider "low altitude".
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Verm, define "historic levels" for me please? This would be totally dependant on the area you were flying, whether bombers were present, the performance characteristics of your airplane, expected altitude of the enemy aircraft, weather conditions (ie, wind, cloud, fog, etc).
Since there is no cloud layer, there really is no limit to visibility. This means that the fighter who is/can fly the highest has an advantage. If there was a cloud layer the fighters would have to fly below them to spot approaching bombers and their fighter escort.
I also don't think you can generalize all combat in the BOB and the Med as "low altitude." There would have been fights occuring at all levels. The book "Fighter" by Len Deighton is a good resource to prove this point. Often the LW bombers would sneak in at low level while the LW fighters flew in excess of 20k ft. Due to weather conditions the bombers would usually get through, often without being spotted. If bombers tried this tactic in AH they would be slaughtered, because due to icons and clear skies (massive dots) they are easily spotted from 15k above them.
The way to reduce the height of the fights and simulate more "realistic" altitudes is quite simple actually. All you have to do is limit visibility. Here's my suggestions: A. Reduced icon range. (We already have this, but I'd say reduce it even farther to about 2k.) B. Remove those giant black dots that appear at 20k distances. Make them appear at about 4k. C. NO inflight radar. D. Increased number of clouds at about 20k height. E. (Not yet implemented) Contrails for high flying aircraft. F. Sun glare
The important thing here is to get rid of those massive dots. This would make fighters at 25k + unable to see low flying bombers. The clouds would limit high altitude bombing, forcing escorts lower.
IMO the concept of an "alt cap" is about as far from realism as you can get. (What's the difference between this and a speed limit??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) In addtion an "alt cap" is far more damaging to the allied planes as a whole vs the axis planes. Maybe the allieds should ask for a speed limit? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Bloom25,
First let me state that I am not trying to be antagonistic and secondly let me say that I am not an expert, but...
the conditions in the Mediterranean theater can not be accurately represented in this "Sim" without some sort of imposed caps. For example, the modifications required for tropical operations that prevented damage caused by heat, sand, etc. had to have adverse effects on the aircraft's performance in climb, in speed and in ideal altitude.
Should the aircraft participating in this scenarios retain their MA characteristics?
Furious
[This message has been edited by Furious (edited 11-01-2000).]
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IMHO the answer is: balance. If you cant give both the sides the chance to win ... well, then someone will just quit. This is a game. No one pays only to be on the receiving side. Same thing in Main Arena, some a/c make the arena simply unbalanced, but thats another story.
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GATT
4° Stormo Caccia - Knights (http://www.4stormo.it)
Macchi C.202's sting (1,9MByte film) (http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/breda.avi)
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Hello, I actually agree with Vermillion about the necessity to have lower fight when simulating N-Arica and Mediterranean or Bob Theaters...
But I am not sure if an imposed alt limit would be the correct choice..My opion is still that the use of wind to limit the ability of all the planes not to fly but at least to fight at altitudes from 27000 to 32000 feets is the best choice for everyone..
Lowering the bomber means often lowering the fights..
If a bomber needs to drop from lower altitudes (from 15 to 20k) in order to obtain better chances of hitting his target, the escort needs to fly lower too.
No one can effectively protect a bomber flying 10k over him..the buff-hunters would just appear lower, at high speed, and disapear, diving away at warp speed, immediatly after crippling a dozen of bombers in 1 or 2 quick passes...Maybe to appear again after some minutes, ready to repeat the show if the escorts are still 10k far away from the bombers.
And since wind does not affect bomb drops in AH for now the only soulution to simulate the inaccuracy of the bombers at high alts (high altitude level bombers accuracy as it is now is completely unrealistic).
My idea is:
20 to 27 k ----> 12 kts crosswind w/no raise
27 to 23 k -------> 25 kts crosswind w/no raise
In ww2 was difficult to judge w/direction n speed as it was changing during the flight ... To simulate this CM could sligtly change wind direction during the scenario (first 10 mins of scen. : wind from South same w/speed as at startin time..2nd 10 mins 170° - 5 kts speed ..3rd 10 mins 150° + 2 kts...4th 10 mins 140° + 4 kts )
BuSc
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Quote by RAM :
"That's really REALISTIC!"
yeah even in the "spirit off st. louis"
u would have a good SA, u only have too look for level cons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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It's gonna be a heck off a 2D scenario
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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question--
in battle will we be allowed to climb through the alt cap? I'm not talking about cruising level at 20K, I mean at a merge or say-- a 109 or spitfire using his superior climb rate to avoid another con?
ammo
[This message has been edited by -ammo- (edited 11-02-2000).]
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banana is the CM so he will be judging violations of the alt cap, so you may wish to get a definitive answer from him.
But here is how I view it.
If your at 15k and use a vertical manuever it better have a continuation at the end that takes you back down below 15k.
So I guess my view is that no, you couldn't use some kind of spiral climb or sustained climb up past the 15k limit to reverse onto a chasing enemy.
A half cuban eight, would IMO be legal, but if at any time you go wings level above 15k, your in violation of the rule.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Bloom, while I agree that visibility often limits actual operating altitudes, its difficult to do in scenarios.
I would love to put a thick cloud cover at different altitudes to simulate such a problem and provide a more realistic reason to fly lower. But the guys with low end systems are then effectively excluded from the events.
Also according to Pyro at this time, we can't go below a 3k icon range, for technical reasons I can't go into here.
Also with a plan like yours you get into the old HA no icon vs we can't see with current graphics type of arguement. Without the crutches you mentioned (icons and black dots) the participants are like an army of blind men stumbling around hoping to randomly bump into the enemy. We just don't have the visual clues the real pilots had to spot and ID the enemy.
Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas, and wish we could do them. But at this time, its almost impossible implement them.
Personally, I don't like absolute alt cap limits myself. But I learned long ago, that if you don't use them, every event turns into a 30k stratosphere spaceship match, which quickly get very very boring. Especially if your trying to recreate a battle or theater of operation that historically had combat operations at much lower altitudes.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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I see your point Verm, however in the last frame I was in our squad was attacked by a numerically superior force at least 5k above us. I have it on film, Zigrat said an alt cap of 15k was in effect, Wolf then repeated this (so did CaveJ and myself) to all the allied COs. Just a few minutes later our squad was attacked from far above us when we were at 15k. Cave can be seen on the open channel saying "Axis broke the alt cap rule." After that, well lets just say the allied channels weren't too friendly for the next couple minutes.
An alt cap will never work perfectly because someone will always bend the rules. The only "alt cap" that could work is a very strong wind layer at 15k that stalls out any planes that try to go above it.
My $.02.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Thats why you have a CM Bloom, and I agree some idiot is always trying to push the limits of the rules.
I know that as a CM in past events with alt limit rules, if I saw a film that showed one flight from team B at 15k, and one flight from team A at 20k, and a fight insues that wipes out team B. A penalty would definitely be in order.
In fact one way I have seen it handled is that Team A would not get the points from that flight, or any points scored subsequently by that flight. Plus Team B would get credit for "destroying" that Team A's flight, as if they had died just before they engaged the enemy.
Penalties are usually a very contentious subject as well, but I know that as a CO if my team obviously violated the rule, I would take the penalty and shut up. Peer pressure from their own team will weigh heavily on "rule benders" if you start to hand them out.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure