Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Karaya One on February 28, 2000, 11:08:00 AM
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I never flew a 109 in RL, only Warbirds.
As Hristo mentioned, I find all the 109 models very mushy and punchy. Especially in the negative G area in which it should be excellent.
The G2 and F4 are the best models for turning but the G10 seems to have a worse turning ratio than its heavier counter-part 109K (in WBs). The G10 is much lighter than a K and performs worse.
Also, I find the pitch input really lousy in the 109 compared to the P51 and Spit in AH.
What gives? Any info & advice would be greatly appreciated. I love the 109 so much, but found the FM so quirky that I moved to the Spit. In the Spit I am averaging 3-4 kills a sortie as opposed to the 109 which was a 1-2 kill sortie.
The 109 seems to take A LOT of work, too much, IMO.
K1
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There is alot of discussion of the 109 in previous threads, set your viewer to date back more than 20 days.
I too thought the same, it takes some getting used to in the AH flight model.. I went back to Warbirds offline and flew the 109 recently, it seemed arcadish after flying AH for awhile now...like you, I have only sims to compare to.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/190srip.gif)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-28-2000).]
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Can't compare notes, as I didn't fly the 109 all that much in WB. I can say that it is far more challenging to fly the 109 in AH than it is the Spit. As a trainer, the number one plane requested (by what I've seen) for help is the 109.
Not intended to slight the Spit jocks, nor start a flamewar. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I reset the history in the forum and still didnt find anything mentioned for the 109.
Was it this forum?
In any event, I find the 109 performance downright horrendous in the horizontal plane. The G2 anf F4 feel right but the 6 and 10 need a wee bit of adjustment, IMO. The roll rates seem too slow. If I am not mistaken the roll rates should be similar to the Spits and the Spit is just downright faster.
The benefit of the 109 was the negative G dives. In AH, it takes much too long, IMO to put the plane nose down. Also, the inverted performance seems off as well.
As mentioned, I can only compare it too WB and other sims. WB is like nintendo compared to AH. However, I felt the 109s were well balanced in the arena.
In AH they are immediately outclassed. Not becuase of the planeset but because of the performance issues.
I have all the trim commands programmed into my stick to compensate for the torque and compression. However, I still feel the plane is too "punchy" at all speeds.
This reminds me of very early problems that we had in Warbirds until the FMs were adjusted.
If I recall my readings correctly, one thing pilots loved about the 109 was the rudder authority. However, if you compare the 109 to the Spit and 51 it is dead last in the comparison.
A Split S takes way too long to accomplish. In a 51 and Spit, its a no brainer.
Could my stick settings be off for the 109? Could they vary so differently for each plane?
Many LW pilots ignored the FW series because of the 109 attributes. However, if AH was RL, they would probably abandon the 109 and stick with the FW.
K1
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Ok, my mistake, I did find an old thread on 109's near the end of the file/forum.
Glad to see im not nuts and people are complaining about the exact same thing I am.
I also noted people mention the nose bounce in the 109 series that is not evident in other planes. We had this problem in early WBs.
Something has to be up with the weight and roll rate...
Comments? Suggestions? A free pass for the looney bin? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
K1
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Compared to WB ones, our 109s have mostly worse flying chracteristics:
- mushy at low speeds and slight nose bounce
- more torque / less control at low speeds
- takes long to deflect elevator full up/down even at 0 speed (didn't 109s have short stick travel ?)
- trim input seems slower than in other planes
Who knows, it even might be right, I am really tired of whining about this over and over (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
P.S.
TAS indicator should really get fixed by now. It still shows TAS < IAS at low altitudes.
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Originally posted by Karaya One:
I never flew a 109 in RL, only Warbirds.
As Hristo mentioned, I find all the 109 models very mushy and punchy. Especially in the negative G area in which it should be excellent.
The G2 and F4 are the best models for turning but the G10 seems to have a worse turning ratio than its heavier counter-part 109K (in WBs). The G10 is much lighter than a K and performs worse.
Also, I find the pitch input really lousy in the 109 compared to the P51 and Spit in AH.
What gives? Any info & advice would be greatly appreciated. I love the 109 so much, but found the FM so quirky that I moved to the Spit. In the Spit I am averaging 3-4 kills a sortie as opposed to the 109 which was a 1-2 kill sortie.
The 109 seems to take A LOT of work, too much, IMO.
K1
The K and G10 should be near identical. same engine, almost exactly same airframe, same armement.. That is the info that HTC went on. If K4 was in the game it would be identical I believe.
Sounds like you are doing very well in the 109.. the spit is easier to fly, but the 109 has supprising capabilities if used well.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Pongo,
I thought the G14 and 109K were the same?
G10 should be lighter.
I just started AH last week and flew the 109 exclusively and got my ar$$ kicked. Once I switched to the Spit or 51 the improvement was dramatic. Too dramatic.
I hate to "beat a dead horse" but I just got here so I am curious why one of the greatest fighters of WWII is behaving so poorly.
I am aware of the differences between AH and WB's but there is something that just "isnt right" with the 109.
Maybe someone can get the developers just to re-check the FM or aero-dynamics.
It got so frustrating that I abandoned the plane all together..for now.
K1
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I am becoming, ironically, more and more of a 109 addict.
I am becoming proficient enough to tangle with decent (and what does that mean?) Spit and Nikki pilots on equal terms (meaning "Co-E"). The big thing I do see in flying it is that I can't wade into 3-4 fighters like I can in the Spit or Nikki and hope to pull it out. If I can isolate one guy I can ususally work the situation around, but there is always the guy zipping through the fight to zap me.
This is probably as it should be. I guess I enjoy the challenge of flying it, oblivious to the potential problems regarding modeling. Ignorance is bliss! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The G14 and the late G6 are the same..
G14 is rebuilt airframes standardised to a later G6 standard.. G10 is new build to use the 605D but performance is nearly identical to K4
Keiren you are certainly getting the hang of it...I am no top stick but your where doing great around 17 and 18 the other day..
To judge the 109 I think you have to fly wing with other 109s...Something I dont get to do much of...I agree though the kills seem easy in the spit if you have been flying 109 or 190 for a while...
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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As a true 109 dweeb I'm constantly amazed by what a good stick can do in it. I'm convinced that the 109 G10 is the dominant aircfaft in AH so far in a 1 on 1...but...I can't control the torque on the delicate nose up stuff..i can't control the torque in the low T&B flap and throttle stuff...I cant control the torque as you power back up on those tough snap shots...GEE...I just cant control the damm torque (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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K1
Hristos post reminded me of how I felt about the modeling of the LW planes not that long ago..I would say in fairness that they have increased the capabilities of the G10 considerably. I dont know if I have had the party line burned into me that any complaints about the 109 model in AH are whining but I honestly dont know how good these late war 109s should be...Historically they got a cannon foder reputation but historical common knoledge is often ridiculous. I hope you stick with it...both seeking an accurate model and flying the 109...
I just remember when putting the nose down in a G10 was suicide...the thing compressed instantly. and it was painted in a cam job that looked most like a med theater british cam scheme.
Right know it is not as good as a machi..I dont know if that is right or not either.
Good luck
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Karaya, in all fairness I believe that the Bf109 got the reputation as "one of the greatest fighters of WWII" more for its early variants and their dominance during the early war. Not the later G variants or K variants.
Even still the G10 is very fast and climbs very well too. It has some desirable attributes.
But I don't think anything I have ever read anything that describes it as having a reputation for quick or crisp handling in the later variants. Quite the contrary actually. Everything I read describes high wingloading and undesireable torque effects.
But again, like you, I have never flown a Bf109 other than in a simulation, so I don't feel qualified to comment on its real life handling quirks.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 02-28-2000).]
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Karaya, many more pilots were glad to switch to the Fw. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Thanks all for the responses.
My biggest concern is the way it handles in the vertical plane. The plane just feels so stiff.
I am aware of the historical differnces and the comparisons to the Spit and P51.
Maybe I need more stick time, or there is something I am over-looking...
The 109 is obviously outgunned in the arena and this is mostly due to the later varient allied planes available and it should be so.
The first initial turn, with E, should be tighter IMO. Also, at slow speed it should be a better opponent for a P51 and its not.
Based on the little support for my theory, I guess my hiatus may have effected my out-look on the planes performance. Maybe AH is accurate and WBs was totally off..who knows.
Time will tell. I'll stick with it and see how I feel after a few hundred hours of stick time.
K1
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Just to remind you : 109G-10 and 109K-4 are not the same.
G-10 had DB 605D engine, while K-4 had DB 605ASCM.
Particularly there was a difference in speed at higher alt and some 150 hp more for K-4 at low alt.
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Hristo
As I understand it either aircraft could have either engine, athough both were intended to have the D engine. But the vast majority of Ks had the D engine and most of the G10s had the D engine.
Dont have the numbers here...
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Karaya, be sure to spend time in the other planes as well.