Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Buzzbait on January 03, 2001, 11:40:00 PM
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Salute to all
I don't fly the Spit much, I prefer Boom and Zoom types, but I can't help but notice something about the Spit IX. This aircraft is obviously the Spit IXF. I tested it at S.L. for speed. The best I could get was 320mph at approx. 200ft. The Climb rate was more difficult to ascertain, but when using Alt. X, it worked out to 3750ft per min. starting at Sea Level and up to approx. 5,000ft.
Now there were several models of Spitfire IX made. The original was the IXF, which when tested a the Air Fighting Development Unit in late 1942, had a speed of approx. 313mph at S.L., 410mph at approx. 20,000ft. It was produced starting in late '42 and into '43. Later models had slightly improved performance from increased boost and higher octane fuel. Then there was the Spit IXHF, which was produced in small numbers and generally used as the basis for high altitude recon aircraft. But the most common was the Spitfire IXLF. Close to 70% of Spit IX's produced were the LF model. The LF sacrificed a little speed at altitude, (404mph at approx. 20,000ft) for more speed at Sea Level. (336mph) It also had a much better rate of climb, topping out at 4400 ft per min. compared to the approx. 3600 ft per min. of the original Spit IXF. It got this from running on significantly higher boost, and higher octane fuel.
It seems AH is using the Spit IXF, perhaps with the slightly higher boost. My question is: Why? It is far more representative to use the LF model.
I know some people on these boards have been licking their lips in anticipation of the arrival of the Spitfire XIV. But no less of an authority than JE "Johnnie" Johnson, British 38 kill Ace, who flew most of the Marks of Spitfires, including the Spit XIV, said the Spit IXLF was the best of the breed.
It is interesting to note that all the British Fighters date from late '42 and early '43 unlike the American or German aircraft.
We have models of American aircraft dating from late spring 1945, but the Hawker Tempest, which was introduced in May of 1944 is not present.
Anyway, wondering why?
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Because they are not done adding aircraft?
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maybe its because HtC is american and they prefer to have the best US planes verses the mediocre axis stuff? hehe
just stirring the pot!
hazed
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LF would be nice. That's what the real 308 Sqn flew mostly and I'd love to have it.
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Major Mike "FunkedUp" Waltz
Officer Commanding, 308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF (http://www.raf303.org/308)
(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif) (http://www.raf303.org/308)
Northolt Wing (1st Polish Fighter Wing) (http://www.raf303.org/northolt)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-04-2001).]
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Buzz, the Tempest will be added - but as a perk plane. I can sympathise with this, since the MA is almost always low level and even as is the Typhoon ('42 aircraft I think?) is one of the most competitive aircraft in the arena.
If Tempest was not a perk plane it'd pretty much rule the arena (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Buzzbait,
I think (but do not know) that one reason is the fuel factor. You mentioned higher octane fuel being used to increase performance. Is that fuel 100 octane, 115 octane or 125. I have heard as high as 150 for some model Spitty's. In any case HTC may be modeling the performance of these birds based on some standard for fuel. Consider the USN used 115 octane fuel when testing the F4U-4. That extra 15 octane gave it a climb of 4770FPM from 3850FPM with 100octane fuel. Which one should be modeled? See where I'm going. I think every A/C in AH is based on a standard for fuel that was used by there country.
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Nope fuel had nothing to do with the performance difference between F, LF, and HF. The performance figures Buzzbait quotes are for standard (100 octane) fuel.
Here are some figures for an LF with 150 octane:
Height Top Speed Time to climb mins Rate of Climb ft/min
2,000 360 0 m 25 s 4,725
4,000 364 0 m 50 s 4,730
6,000 364 1 m 15 s 4,735
10,000 370 2 m 6 s 4,745
13,800 389 . 4,350
20,000 388 4 m 30 s 3,450
30,000 380 8 m 17 s 1,950
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-04-2001).]
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there used to be a horse around here somewhere....
AKskurj
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I wondered when the AH crowd would ask this question. It seems another community is asking it as well!
http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/017289.html (http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/017289.html)
Cheers
Paul
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LF, F, they all explode the same.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-04-2001).]
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roflol raub (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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LF, F, and HF are the different types of WINGS that can be mounted to the fuselage of the Spitfire.
LF is low altitude, and is a clipped-tip wing.
F is the normal wing.
HF is high altitude, and has a longer wingspan.
Also, the Spits have a suffix letter, and it refers to the guns in the wing.
-A is eight .303 machineguns.
-B is two cannons, and four .303 machinguns.
-C is four cannons.
-E is two cannons and two .50 caliber machinguns.
So, and Spitfire LF Mk IVC is a clipped wing, four cannon armed version of the Spitfire 4 airframe/engine.
A Spitfire F Mk XIVA is a normal shapped wing with eight little .303 machineguns armed version of the Spitfire 14 airframe/engine.
Hans.
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LF, F or HF also indicates what type of environment the engine is designed for.
Example
The LF. Mk V's Merlin 45M, 50M and 55M (M was the suffix given to Merlins that had a cropped supercharger blower of 9.5-in diameter) had their supercharger blower decreased in size to allow it to obtain higher speeds at altitudes of below 6k which the regular Mk V with a Merlin 45 or 46 could not (at lower altitudes the high-altitude optimized Merlin 45(46)'s automatic boost control unit (ABCU) which prevented over-boosting could cause pre-detonation and possible damaged to the cylinders--the same went for the Spitfire IX with the -61 engine.) , along with the clipped wings. Also, most of the Mk Vs that were converted to LF were older machines that had been in use for quite awhile. Thus the LF Mk V was affectionately nicknamed the "clipped, cropped and clapped spitty", referring to its wings, supercharger and age respectively.
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
"It felt as if an angel was pushing..."
-Reponse of Gen. Adolf Galland after flying the fourth prototype Me 262 in May 1943.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 01-05-2001).]
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Hans typeth:
-A is eight .303 machineguns.
-B is two cannons, and four .303 machinguns.
-C is four cannons.
-E is two cannons and two .50 caliber machinguns.
Are those designations for later Spitfire variants?
The Mark I-to-V used the suffixes as continues:
A, 8 .303.
B, 2x 20mm Hisp. and 4x .303.
C referred to the redesigned and strengthened structure of Spitfire V airframes since most Spit Vs were upgraded from Spit I or IIs, the weight of the new engine and several other accommodations put burden on the structure of the aircraft. The C could hold the A or B armament. Or 4 20mm cannon only. The C wing was referred to as the 'Universal' wing.
P.S. not all LF fighters had clipped wings, some had the standard but with the -M engines.
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
"It felt as if an angel was pushing..."
-Reponse of Gen. Adolf Galland after flying the fourth prototype Me 262 in May 1943.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 01-05-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 01-05-2001).]
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Nath your correct.
To clarify things, these are the variants of the MkIX that were produced:
F.IX - Merlin 61,63 or 63A - B, C or E wing(Normal span or clipped)
LF.IX - Merlin 66 - B, C or E (Normal span or clipped
HFIX - Merlin 70 - C or E wing
(normal span or extended*)
*mostly had standard wingtips as the extended tips were not popular due to adverse effects on handling.
The wing designations applied for all marks up to the XVIII although the A wing was only used on the MK1, MKII & early V's. The 'C' wing could have four cannons if the 303's were deleted but was usually the same as the 'B'.
Btw there was also the FRIX which was a field modification of either an F or LFIX and fitted with a single camera for fighter-recon duties. These aircraft were painted a pale pink colour overall (See link in my previous post for an example).
Cheers
Paul
[This message has been edited by Bradburger (edited 01-05-2001).]
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S! all
Nath is correct. Very few of the clipped wing Spitfire IX's were built. They were not popular. Initially conceived as a means to allow the Spit Vb's roll rate to increase to allow them to compete better with the 190A3, they proved not very successful. They increased the likelyhood of stalls off high speed turns and reduced general stall warning. When the Spit IX arrived and established parity, then superiourity with the 190's, the clipped wings were unnessesary.
The truth is, the primary difference between the LF and others was the engines. The LF used the Merlin 66, which was tuned optimally for the type of medium altitude combat which the Spitfire Squadrons generally found themselves involved in.
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'Late in 1941 RAF fighter pilots began to encounter a new German fighter over France. In initial engagements, this mysterious Luftwaffe aircraft so thoroughly outclassed the best British mount, the newly introduced Spitfire V, that it was creating a serious morale problem. The German plane was, of course, the Focke Wulf 190. RAF pilots were counseled to use the Spitfire's superior turning ability against the Wulf, but this was, at best, a defensive tactic.
Test flying a captured 190 didn't help matters. The more British engineers got to know the Focke Wulf, the more evident its superiority became, and the less likely a rapid answer to this aircraft seemed. An answer was forthcoming, however, and it was surprisingly simple. By installing a more potent Merlin 60 engine into the Spitfire, many of its combat performance deficiencies were overcome. This became the Spit IX. That such an upgrade could be accomplished without significant structural modifications to allow for greater weight and speed is about the best indication of design excellence a combat aircraft can possess.
The Spitfire Mk XI in Air Warrior
The Spitfire dominates the European Theater of Air Warrior. Although the British used a variation of the Spitfire in the Pacific during World War II - a carrier plane called the Seafire - the Spit is available in Europe alone.
Traditional weakness of the Spitfire, such as its limited range and narrow track landing gear, are not a factor in the game. One historic drawback of the plane is relevant; the Spit carries a light ammo load and loses more than 80% of its lethality once half its ammo is gone.
In every aspect of air combat the Spitfire excels. It has a high roll rate, excellent maneuverability, rapid climb rate, good speed, and guns second only to the Focke Wulf for sheer lethality. Although the Spit holds onto energy very well, most pilots use it for turn-and-burn dogfighting - what many Air Warrior players refer to as stallfighting.
Virtues
The Spitfire holds energy better than any fighter in Air Warrior - realism or no realism. It suffers less induced drag than any fighter in Europe, and can boom and zoom brilliantly, though, given its superb dogfighting abilities even under full realism, few pilots choose to do so.
This is one sweet plane to fly. It handles extraordinarily well and can half- loop at speeds as low as 150 knots.
Vices
Only one thing prevents the Spitfire from being the most popular full realism fighter in Europe: ammo load. It's not simply that the Spit has a short clip. Rather, it's the enormous plunge in lethality the Spit suffers after half of its ammo - its cannon shells - is gone. This is why many pilots refer to the Spitfire as the one kill wonder.
Also, many pilots have trouble with blackouts in a Spitfire, owing to its ability to pull high Gs at low speed. Finally, as its speed gets higher, its controls get stiffer until you lose virtually all control over the plane around 450 knots.
The Spitfire in Scenarios
Unlike earlier marks of the Spitfire, the Spit IX has a decent sized fuel tank. It's also a good fighter at very high altitudes - better, in fact, than the Mustang. Its main drawback in scenarios is its fundamental handicap in all other facets of Air Warrior play: too few bullets and cannon shells. Also, its tendency toward control stiffness at high speed puts it at surprising disadvantage against its frequent scenario opponent, the Focke Wulf 190. Many a Spit pilot with plenty of arena experience, and little fear of the Focke Wulf in that realm, has found the situation quite the reverse in scenario play.
Tips
Given the oft mentioned light ammo load, the Spit works best for pilots who are good shots. Although the Spit has a small supply of ammo, its guns are potent, rewarding the sniper rather than the sprayer.
Stay off of the flaps when flying a Spit, except to get over the top on low speed vertical maneuvers. The Spitfire has no maneuvering flap setting, and its flaps down position is intended to create increased drag for landing.
Munitions
Armament Ammo Load Payload
2-.50 cal Machine Guns 500 rounds 1-550 lb. bombs
2-20mm Cannons 240 shells -
Performance
The Spit has good, though not exceptional, speed. Where it excels is in both medium and low speed turning ability, as well as scalded monkey climb rates, up to impressively high altitudes.
Performance Comparison
Only the Me109 can keep up with the Spitfire in a climb. Nothing can match the Spit's sustained turning ability. It has several equals or betters in high speed handling; the Focke Wulf, Mustang, and P-38 are more nimble above 300kts. As for sheer speed, the aforementioned trio of aircraft are faster at most altitudes. '
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WOOWOO, way to bump a 7 year old thread! :aok
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Wow....nice bump on a thread thats nearly 8 years old.
Race
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This thread is so old, it actually has a couple years on Vanscrew.
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roflol raub (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
How did Spatula make this post in January if he registered in June? :noid
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How did Spatula make this post in January if he registered in June? :noid
lol. I just realised that! ITS T3H TIME M4CHIN3!!!!!11!1!!!!!ELEVENTYONE!!1!
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Where is my shovel for all that manure.
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This thread is now dead since there is a wing-tip thread....
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How did Spatula make this post in January if he registered in June? :noid
Same with "hazed-".
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WOOWOO, way to bump a 7 year old thread! :aok
Proof that sometimes searching isn't the best option. :lol
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The best part is that he resurrected it with a quote from the manual of the long-dead Air Warrior. We need a Cleric or Paladin to the forum, STAT.
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I know this is a hijack, but why does Nath-BDP's thing says "Banned" ? I saw him online a few weeks ago. that's the 3rd person I've seen with that. No more PNG? Just Bann?
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It also says he has no posts. These posts were made almost eight years they are are fubared.
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No, there was a few fellas a while back, I think one has a post in this thread, just says "Banned" and he posted yesterday.