Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: fd ski on October 21, 2018, 10:29:15 AM
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Flew a frame last night. It was fun. Other then retarded tactics that one is forced to use when alt-cap is enabled by the way of down drafts.
So you fly at 24k. If you fly any higher, wind will slow you down and push you down later. Entire fighting bores down to whoever turns first and gets below 24k while everyone else is flying as fast as they can, as close to 24k as possible. I'm not even going to get into "historical" part of it.
What is the purpose of this aberration ? It makes an entire game straight up silly.
If bombers need escort, and escort flies at 35k, then it's COs problem. They will not escort properly.
Cap for bombers is based on "word of honor" and that i can understand.
But why should i fly at 24k when my plane will outperform all opposition at 30k ?
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But why should i fly at 24k when my plane will outperform all opposition at 30k ?
I think you just answered your own question. :)
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I think you just answered your own question. :)
190 mafia. I knew it. :)
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190 mafia. I knew it. :)
:D
I did not design this scenario but I assume it was just for balance purposes. While our planes can go up there, generally the mid-war planes struggle at those alts and fighting that high is generally not that fun. It would only take a couple minutes to be down to that ~24K alt anyway.
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The Axis fighters did well in Frame 3. I have flown against them in the last three frames and they have changed their tactics and the Allies owning Panteleria forces changes in game play. While I do not care for alt caps complaining about them while an event is underway is too late. Focus on frame 4.
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waystin2, i don't care about results of any frames. I'm a walk on, just stumbled in by chance.
I was CM back when AH started so I understand a little of scenario design.
And now when chance to attend frame 4 presents itself, I have to ask myself - do i really wanna fly circles at max speed at 24k playing tag on those going on wrong angle ? I would I rather do some ACM in main arena ?
This limitation turns entire affair into something it shouldn't be. You know best, i saw you running full speed away from a fight leaving my squadron to die last night. Poor bastards on the radio were happy "cavalry is coming". It was kinda sad. But I understand why you did that. It was a smart move. Not much to do with history, flying, ACM but in context of retarded max alt - smart.
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waystin2, i don't care about results of any frames. I'm a walk on, just stumbled in by chance.
I was CM back when AH started so I understand a little of scenario design.
And now when chance to attend frame 4 presents itself, I have to ask myself - do i really wanna fly circles at max speed at 24k playing tag on those going on wrong angle ? I would I rather do some ACM in main arena ?
This limitation turns entire affair into something it shouldn't be. You know best, i saw you running full speed away from a fight leaving my squadron to die last night. Poor bastards on the radio were happy "cavalry is coming". It was kinda sad. But I understand why you did that. It was a smart move. Not much to do with history, flying, ACM but in context of retarded max alt - smart.
A little friendly advice and you get nasty with unfounded accusations about my gameplay. I will leave you to sink or swim here with you temper tantrum now. You are on your own. Embarrass yourself away. :aok
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Come on
This is not real life
This is not a reenactment
THIS IS a game
A game where scenarios are designed to where both sides have a chance of winning the battle.
Balance is the main objective and tactics and strategy are in play for the team, not just one group. The first two frames I lost all 3 lives very fast. Frame 2 I was out in 40 minutes. Frame 3 I survived with out losing a life. Some days you are the bug and some days you are the windshield.
If furballin in the MA is your thing, go for it man. No one here is going to care if you spend your 16 bucks a month to fly the MA.
This is NOT the MA and I am truly sorry that you did not have fun flying with your squad of 38s.
I for one have had an AWESOME time with my group of guys in Bf109G2s trying to survive and accomplish our objectives with in the rules of the event.
Hope you fly next week, but like I wrote, if it is not your thing, it is not your thing.
Lets just try and be civil.
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I think you're missing a point.
I got nothing against scenarios. I designed them for AH when it started, ran some of the first ones.
I designed them back in WB, participated in S3s and such for years. Including getting up at 3am in europe just to participate.
I love scenarios and i hope they succeed.
That being said, scenarios should be designed to be fair. They should be designed to give a historical "you are there" feeling to participants. If history was too one sided, designer can add some extra "not quite realistic" planes for balance, or tweak scoring in such a way that winning despite the odds is achievable, but at the end it should be in the hand of COs and pilots to pull it off.
When I fly a historical scenario, max speed into the merge, pull into vertical just to be pushed down by the wind - it takes away entire immersion. It affects tactics of the squadrons, single pilots etc. It negates part of ACM, historical tactics and so forth. I fail to see how you don't see a problem there.
I flew last night first time in this particular event. I survived without live loss. Mostly because i refused to slow down and kept going at 24k without much turning. My squadron was wiped out 2 or 3 times over. Cause instead of flying straight lines for a pot shot, they started to engage.
As for "even odds" - i'd say it's quite opposite. It is in MA that you have a chance of evening the odds. You can take same plane as your opponent, fly B&Z to your heart delight, etc. Scenario is where you get one way mission and try to survive despite the odds, knowing that opposition will have superior planes.
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I flew last night first time in this particular event. I survived without live loss. Mostly because i refused to slow down and kept going at 24k without much turning. My squadron was wiped out 2 or 3 times over. Cause instead of flying straight lines for a pot shot, they started to engage.
Tells me all I need to know about you. Your money and time, fly the way you want. Check in during the scenario design discussion and give your input there. This event is in process and rules are in place,
Thank you for participating
:salute
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You guys are pretty high strung. Where did i postulate to remove those rules for frame 4 ?
I asked for a rationalle for this limitation. If one you've presented is all there is, fine.
I hoped it was somewhat deeper then "don't want the poor 190s to get jumped".
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You guys are pretty high strung. Where did i postulate to remove those rules for frame 4 ?
I asked for a rationalle for this limitation. If one you've presented is all there is, fine.
I hoped it was somewhat deeper then "don't want the poor 190s to get jumped".
Maybe it is you who is not thinking so deep. :rolleyes:
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I've also helped design match-ups. It was always a matter of trying to please both sides enough to draw players.
It was always something.
Pacific designs couldn't have F4Us. Ever. Because the Japanese plane set players were convinced it would just be a one-sided slaughter. Not that the few events that allowed F4Us (in limited quantity) ever really proved that fear founded.
If the higher performance Japanese planes were included then it was not historically immersive and a huge turn-off.
It was a tightrope. Everyone knows you need a dedicated and motivated opfor to keep the event interesting and fun. I'm a dedicated Allied side guy but I regularly tried on Axis boots to see what I could do to keep it fun for all. It wasn't easy (probably because I often couldn't sympathize with a wide assortment of nit-picking that seemed a game, for some, all its own). I wondered where the 'Samurai spirit' was. Yes, the Americans (and their allies) did create intimidating weapons as the war progressed. Yes, the Japanese were fighting an uphill battle at that point. To me, on the occasion that I wore the rising sun, that was the immersion.
Perfect balance isn't immersion. Immersion isn't perfect balance. That's where compromise comes in. As a player, I've compromised to please the other side. Not every player seems capable of such. Alt caps and downdrafts? I've never been a fan. I've played in events that relied on that element, though (most have now, for a long time). Why? Because events without bad guys to shoot at/shoot at you are about as much fun as offline tooling about.
One of the best ideas, event-wise, has been the complete side switching after a few frames, so every player can truly see the amount of balancing involved in the design of an event.
But yeah, I, too, would like to see alt capping go away. JMOHO. :salute :cheers:
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Howdy, all!
If you want the full reason and history of alt caps, here it is. :aok
The goal of a scenario is to base it off a historical battle such that it gives as realistic an experience as possible -- subject to it also being fun and balanced.
If a scenario player has fun in a scenario and reads a book with accounts from pilots who flew in the real battle, and thinks to himself, "Wow! That's like the fights I got into in the scenario!" -- that's the best.
Of course some things cannot be both realistic and fun. No one wants to spend 4 hours flying to the fight. No one wants to be enormously outnumbered or out-classed.
There are lots of parameters in a scenario that are adjusted in our attempt to find the best mix of all of this: what planes each side has, in what proportion, with what armament, what the objectives are, cloud setup, what part of the terrain to use, how to set up ships, what ground targets to use, how to score it, etc.
The typical altitudes of fights is of as much importance to realistic feel as where the fight takes place, against which plane types, and what the weather is like.
In Aces High, we do not have some of the real-life issues that caused real WWII aircraft to fly in particular alt ranges in particular battles. These include pilot cold, pilot fatigue, navigation problems (as we have GPS in cockpit), windscreens that frost over, visibility issues, being unable to see targets at ground level from too high up, having layers of overcast or undercast, not knowing that you and your enemy are both launching a bunch of aircraft to fight each other at precisely X o'clock on Saturday, what the enemy's targets are, and so on.
Historically, there have often been altitude limits on bombers. We don't want 1944 8th AF strategic bombing of Germany to consist of fleets of B-17's doing NOE runs. We don't want B-17's up near 40k. Few people complain about that.
Longer ago, alt caps on fighters were not as common, but were still used in Rangoon 2004 (to preclude silly altitudes compared to history), Operation Downfall 2006 (to account for jet stream), and Der Grosse Schlag 2007 (to encourage realistic fighter altitudes).
But we found in scenarios without alt limits, it often became alt warrior, with everyone trying to fly around as high as their planes would go. Not only was it highly non-historical, we got complaints about how boring it was.
So, more and more, we started putting in ways to keep the fighter alts at more realistic levels for the battles being fought like we had been doing for a long time with bombers. 35k-ish for 8th AF over Germany. 25k-ish for Eastern Front, North Africa, etc.
The best way to implement is some downwind (but not huge). That means you can definitely do vertical moves into it, but you just can't be flying around in it for a long time.
In summary, we have alt caps because the action with alt cap is both more realistic and more fun.
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I have to ask myself - do i really wanna fly circles at max speed at 24k playing tag on those going on wrong angle ?
What you are talking about isn't changed by alt caps or no alt caps.
Either way you can fly in a way so that no enemy gets you. Alt cap -- fly at max alt and don't turn or dive. No alt cap -- fly at max alt and don't turn or dive.
Either way, though, if you don't turn or dive, you aren't going to be shooting down any enemy fighters or bombers and so are going to be useless to your side.
All that is different with what you are talking about is that, with no alt caps, people spend way more time climbing, way more time flying way up high at near stall speed.
What I'm telling you is that we tried it both ways. People prefer alt caps.
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I've also helped design match-ups. It was always a matter of trying to please both sides enough to draw players.
It was always something.
Pacific designs couldn't have F4Us. Ever. Because the Japanese plane set players were convinced it would just be a one-sided slaughter. Not that the few events that allowed F4Us (in limited quantity) ever really proved that fear founded.
I didn't know you helped out, we do appreciate it despite popular belief. Which one was it? :salute
I disagree that Pacific designs couldn't have F4Us. But in designing a historically accurate event, F4Us often face A6Ms with few Ki61s and in late war, Ki84s, the only planes that can go toe-to-toe with them. Ultimately, you encounter an unbalanced setup that pits late-war US Navy vs mid-late war Japanese rides. This does not take into account USAAF aircraft in the theater. If a designer puts the time into it, there are very few chances where it ends up being balanced in terms of historical accuracy. After 1942 the Pacific just plays itself out to where you consistently have superior US aircraft versus Japanese aircraft.
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I didn't know you helped out ...
I was a CT (now AvA) CM. My big experiment to see if we could make a late war Pacific setup that everyone could enjoy was a complete alternate reality scheme that still shot for something 'somewhat believable': Second Wind.
It was based on an extended Pacific Theater time frame where the A-bomb was an unsuccessful experiment and the Japanese managed to develop their jet program in with more success and in sufficient quantity (Me-262s skinned as Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu and the Me-163 skinned as the Rikugun Ki-202). B-29s weren't in the game yet so it was further surmised that the program suffered setbacks. B-17s were used instead.
This was very much out on a limb and was obviously not a reality based setup but it illustrates how hard it was to get anyone to fly on the Japanese side when F4Us were in the set.
It had very mixed reviews but there was some degree of favorable feedback.
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Brooke, Arlo, thanks for replies.
Arlo, i flew a corsair in event recently. It was -1, got N1K2 parked on my bellybutton and that was all she wrote :) I thought i could outran him, but i misjudged performance of 1942 aircraft vs late 1944 one :)
But generally i agree, it is hard to create balanced Pac War scenario. One of the first scenarios in AH i did, back in early 2000s was Hostile Shores - basically fictional raids of Royal Navy, with Hellcats and Corsairs against Norway - defended by 109gs and 190as. It was far more balanced and quite fun as i remember it.
Best Pac scenarios i remember from WB were early war ones - A6M2/M3 vs F4Fs, maybe sprinkle of early corsairs and KI61s. Throw in early spitfires for defence of Singapour and you have really fun scenario.
I agree that finding a balance in planes and numbers is important, but it can be also achieved by settings appropriate goals in scenario design.
Brooke - thank you for complete answer. I would postulate to you, that if you were to remove icon range that allows people to "escort" while 10k ft alt difference, maybe it would not be quite an alt monkey contest.
Buff alt limits are always honor based - and best i can tell they always work. If B17s are flying at 20k, escorts flying at 37k will not be very effective with icon range limited to 1-2km...
Radar can be configured too - to disable bars etc.
As for equation between wind draft and lack of thereof, i disagree. If i have a speed on the bogey, pull into vertical and he crawls up my bellybutton because i passed 24k magic marker while climbing and therefore just for additional speed break, then sorry. It isn't either historical or fun. Flying at high alt has its own rules, it is hard to master and takes disciplined squadron to do right. Forcing everyone down lower takes it all away.
This particular scenario has a ton of fun options to play for the CO, low level strikes, large airspace. High alt sweep/faints - designed to draw enemy cover into away sectors and not engaging - can be a good element of such strategy.
Instead i feel we got 3x "brawl at 24k over the island" on saturday. There was no finesse to it at all.
If you say people prefer it that way. Fine. I accept. Maybe i'm just too old school.
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Brooke, Arlo, thanks for replies.
You are very welcome. :aok
I would postulate to you, that if you were to remove icon range
Whether icon range is default range or zero makes no difference to seeing formations of bombers at a large distance. We always spot bombers long before icons show up.
Nevertheless, various events have experimented with various icon ranges from no icons at all, to reduced range, to default. Default icon range is significantly more popular.
Buff alt limits are always honor based - and best i can tell they always work.
Yes. That is because bombers don't do air-combat maneuvers, and bomber pilots tend to follow rules more strictly.
We have tried various ways of doing alt limits for fighters, in numerous scenarios since 2004.
-- Honor-based alt limits don't work well. They lead to accusations of cheating, acrimony, calls for penalties, and undesirable workload for CM's. We don't do it that way anymore.
-- Radar-based alt limits work OK, but are quite artificial feeling. We use them in events where the alt limit is over 30k (and can't use downwind as a result), such as in Bigweek.
-- Wind-based alt limits are the most natural, easiest to implement, and easiest on players.
If i have a speed on the bogey, pull into vertical and he crawls up my bellybutton because i passed 24k magic marker while climbing and therefore just for additional speed break, then sorry.
I think you have a wrong feeling on how it works out in practice. It's not a 400 mph downwind. It is a 4000 fpm downwind, which is mild enough that you don't even notice when you pull into in on a vertical move.
Also, when the enemy pulls up to follow you into that vertical move, he experiences the same downdraft you do and isn't going to gain any advantage over you.
For example, I did a test with a P-38G going 295 mph true at 23.7k. I pulled up into a vertical and noticed when I topped out. With no downwind, I get to 29k. With the 45 mph downdraft at 24k, I get to 28k. That is not a great difference.
You can check it out yourself offline to see all of this -- to see how it feels when you pull up into it to do a loop or high yo yo.
Give it a try and see what it's really like.
Flying at high alt has its own rules, it is hard to master and takes disciplined squadron to do right. Forcing everyone down lower takes it all away.
The main point of scenarios isn't 40k flying, though. Some scenarios have 35k flying -- so you get high-alt exposure there. Some scenario have 25k flying -- just like some scenarios have strategic bombing and some don't. But no scenario and no historical WWII combat is about flying around at 40k, which is what we get without alt caps. Heck, in Fire Over Malta (which is 1942) we even had Hurricanes and 109F's flying around at 35k+.
This particular scenario has a ton of fun options to play for the CO, low level strikes, large airspace. High alt sweep/faints - designed to draw enemy cover into away sectors and not engaging - can be a good element of such strategy.
Instead i feel we got 3x "brawl at 24k over the island" on saturday. There was no finesse to it at all.
Everything you just said would be the same without alt caps, except you would replace the word "24k" with "35k".
If you say people prefer it that way. Fine. I accept. Maybe i'm just too old school.
On average, people do prefer alt caps to avoid what they consider to be absurdly high alts. That doesn't mean it's your favorite, though. Just like how some people like strategic-bombing scenarios, some don't, some like antishipping, some don't, some like Eastern Front-style fights, some don't, etc.
Our highest-alt scenarios are typically 8th AF strategic bombing or late-war what ifs, with fighters going up to 34-36k. That's pretty high -- I'm not sure they would go much higher even with no limit, as it is a struggle up there.
Keep an eye out for 8th AF or late-war ETO. Those might be more to your liking in altitude.
<S>, and thanks for flying in this one even though it isn't your favorite. :aok
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re climbs: i tested during the scenario. Initial climb doesn't seem affected a lot, however couple of seconds later, seems a plane gets pushed down hard. I'm not sure how downdraft is implemented in the code, but all maneuvers near stall speed were high risk of spin or dropping a wing. Sure, at high alt all those are somewhat different but still not quite what we have here.
As for 36k hurricanes, well. Poor job by COs i'd say. Hurri at that alt should be a sitting duck even for a canoe armed with a crossbow :)
After posting I read though design post for this scenario. all 13+ pages of it.
Now i think alt limits are the least of your problems :)
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:aok
Now you see what we go through to try and make an event that will draw the most guys and provide a fun and balanced scenario.
BUT,
we cannot make everyone happy. We all have our favorite stuff to do. The thing about scenarios is working with a team to accomplish the objectives. That is my favorite thing. :salute
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Alt caps are here for balance, mostly. I can tell you this, as a 109G-6 in the first 2 frames of Battle Over Germany, it was no fun at 35k. Not only can we barely level at 30k, the envelope at that alt is incredibly small. Also, we had P-38's and 51B's buzzing around above us. If we made one maneuver, we were down to 27k. When one plane set completely dominates another at high alt, there must be an alt cap. The same goes for mid war Eastern Front where a 190 and 109G will dominate Yak's. We can't allow the Axis to fly at 28k because there is no competition. Likewise, we can't force the fight at 12k either.
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Alt caps are here for balance, mostly. I can tell you this, as a 109G-6 in the first 2 frames of Battle Over Germany, it was no fun at 35k. Not only can we barely level at 30k, the envelope at that alt is incredibly small. Also, we had P-38's and 51B's buzzing around above us. If we made one maneuver, we were down to 27k. When one plane set completely dominates another at high alt, there must be an alt cap. The same goes for mid war Eastern Front where a 190 and 109G will dominate Yak's. We can't allow the Axis to fly at 28k because there is no competition. Likewise, we can't force the fight at 12k either.
High alt manouvering - yes. Rest absolutelly not !!!! Idea of forcing people to play where other planes are competitive is ridiculous. Fly your yak at 10k in close support of IL2, you will get jumped and that's the reality of eastern front. End of story. If you fly it at 25k, you're in a pig. 109s and 190s will come down to meet you if killing IL2s is their target.
Same for 8th airforce. Your 109 at 30k is quite sufficient to attack buffs, get lower after that, fight where you can. Who said you should only have "fair setup" in scenario ? If so, i'd like +20mph on my spitfire V when faced with 190s !!! :) It's only fair !!!
KCDitto, i think you might have missed the sarcasm in my post ;)
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You would set up a scenario like that and you would have trouble finding pilots
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i disagree.
http://www.squadselectseries.com/
almost 20 years in running. Back in WB prime days it had easily 200+ per event. WB is dead yet S3s live on.
No alt caps there.
Found this little gem:
http://www.squadselectseries.com/archive/results/3DAsummary.html
Looks like i was 2nd place top scorer 20 years ago :)
Seriously guys, people flew events before alt caps and it was fun :)
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In Aces High, the player base for scenarios is significantly different today than 10 years ago.
How many pilots fly in Squad Select Series in Warbirds today? Would we be able to get them to come join us in scenarios?
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Seriously guys, people flew events before alt caps and it was fun :)
It's not that if we had no alt caps no one would play. But on average, people prefer alt caps. Some folks feel it is more realistic and more fun with alt caps. Not every person is going to agree with that sentiment, though.
Still, if you want high-alt action, we still have that in 8th AF strategic-bombing scenarios.
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re climbs: i tested during the scenario. Initial climb doesn't seem affected a lot, however couple of seconds later
That is the purpose of the downwind: to discourage you from climbing up into it and staying there.
But if you want to be flying along at 24k and do a loop or high yo yo or hammerhead or whatever -- a true vertical move then back down to 24k -- it allows that just fine.
As for 36k hurricanes, well...
Hurri does fine at high alt. It's just a slow plane at all alts.
I'm just giving you an example from one scenario where no alt cap resulted in silly, unrealistic altitudes and where there were players complaining about things devolving into alt warrrior.
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:rofl. 20 years ago
Yea Aces High was different then too
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If there was an 8th AF set up with no alt cap, I doubt I would fly unless I could have a Ta 152 or Me 163.
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High alt manouvering - yes. Rest absolutelly not !!!! Idea of forcing people to play where other planes are competitive is ridiculous. Fly your yak at 10k in close support of IL2, you will get jumped and that's the reality of eastern front. End of story. If you fly it at 25k, you're in a pig. 109s and 190s will come down to meet you if killing IL2s is their target.
Same for 8th airforce. Your 109 at 30k is quite sufficient to attack buffs, get lower after that, fight where you can. Who said you should only have "fair setup" in scenario ? If so, i'd like +20mph on my spitfire V when faced with 190s !!! :) It's only fair !!!
KCDitto, i think you might have missed the sarcasm in my post ;)
In a recent FSO we flew A6M2's and A6M3's vs. P40s and Spit V's. It wasn't fun watching Spit 5's come in 7K above us simply because they could and our A6Ms could not make it that high. On top of that, we were escorting bombers and could not properly escort because the planes dove down and went back up with us having no chance to catch them in either instance.
It is impossible to make things 100% balanced, which is why there is give and take. The 190 is better at some things than others, and the same with the Spit. We do what we can to make it as fun as possible for the most amount of people possible. In this scenario we have C.202s which are laughable and are the worst plane in the setup, but I don't see anyone complaining about flying them. It is rare to see the Axis have an advantage in planeset outside of the Eastern Front, and here that advantage is with 1 plane.
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In Aces High, the player base for scenarios is significantly different today than 10 years ago.
How many pilots fly in Squad Select Series in Warbirds today? Would we be able to get them to come join us in scenarios?
i doubt it. I tried doing that back in early 2000. That's how FSOs came to be. Idea was to replicate S3s in AH.
I see that they have about 50 people flying every week. 3 lifes per event ( used to be 1 per event back in my days ). so i guess it's dwindling as well. Judging by forum they are working tightly with developers, so i doubt that they would be interested in switching.
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i doubt it. I tried doing that back in early 2000. That's how FSOs came to be. Idea was to replicate S3s in AH.
I see that they have about 50 people flying every week. 3 lifes per event ( used to be 1 per event back in my days ). so i guess it's dwindling as well. Judging by forum they are working tightly with developers, so i doubt that they would be interested in switching.
OK. They are always welcome here -- we'd love to have them join us. <S>! :aok
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Alt caps have always been a bad idea. Is it commonplace in scenarios nowadays?
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One thing you have to keep in mind is that the goal of scenarios is not to mimic history, it's to have good fights with a more strategic side and in a more historical setting than the MA allows. If we were trying to mimic history we'd have 8+ hour bomber sorties and only one life for the entire event. Alt caps are there for the same reason. The ultimate goal is to design events that result in the most enjoyment for players. Events where one side are sheep to the slaughter are no fun for the sheep, and honestly not all that much fun for the wolves either.