Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: popeye on August 15, 2001, 08:13:00 AM
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I think the CA needs it. Stooging around looking for the enemy is A. Not fun, and B. Not historic. (Low alt limit would be still allow NOE attacks.) Hope this can be implemented in 1.08.
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As long it djust shows the "sector radar bar"
and not the individual AC "dots" then im fine with this...
Regards.
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I'm suggesting that it WOULD show individual aircraft dots, but only in the tower, not in flight. So, you could be directed to the enemy by someone in the tower, but couldn't use the dots as "SA" in flight.
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Yeah, Popeye. It would be within the capability of the Brit radar/command & control system of the time as well.
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Ok let the brits have it but not the LW :) :)
<ducks>
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The Germans would have the capability shortly as time progressed through Funks scenario. Might as well let them have it too.
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not to burst your bubble guys, but Freya radars were used for night fighter guiding as soon as in late 1940, and for 1941 the kammhuber line using the Himmelbelt system was already working for the night fighters :)
so with the setup we have (late 1941-early1942) the Germans should have dot dar too :D
[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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The radar the Germans used was to guide their bombers to targets by triangulating their position...
I don't believe they actually had aircraft detection radar.
-SW
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I would not mind radar from the tower. Even more so if the presence indicating bars were off too.
Westy
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bar dar is sufficient. Ozark and myself saw a small red bar near the British Isle. We headed that way, figured out where he was going by the bar moving from one sector to the next. We cut off his estimated flight path, and sure enough we got a visual of the bandit. To our dismay, he was about 23,000 ft and we were about 17,000 ft. He got Ozark, and got a nice 550 yd shot (I asked what he saw on his FE to make sure I wasn't lagging, he had 550 as well) to take out my left everything it seemed!! I ran like a little girl and managed to land safely. We had no problems finding fights in the first few days of the arena being up.
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what Nifty said.
no dots, just head to center of grid, you'll find them or they'll find you :)
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I think dot dar within 50 miles or 2 sectors is ralistic (in tower).
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S!
By late '41 both sides had radar up and working well. Controllers would vector Squadrons onto contacts and would actually be able to give them altitudes. The sector bars are accurate, but another indicator showing approx alt. would also be good. The individual dots are not realistic.
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
The radar the Germans used was to guide their bombers to targets by triangulating their position...
I don't believe they actually had aircraft detection radar.
-SW
German air detection radar was as advanced as british radar, or more, in 1939. If you read R.V.Jone's book "most secret war", you will find that the own british scientifics thought that the germans in many ways had a more advanced radar than their own's. Jones was one of the phisicians working for the Air ministry and helped to fight the german X-Gerat guiding beams during the night "blitz bombings" over UK.
He also helped to develop some of the the British navigation aids for the night bombers. He was by one of the most important men in his work. And I can find for you the quote from his book when he mentions that the German radar in 1941 (wich he got to study first-hand after a commando action wich captured one Freya set from a french station) was quite better than british'. :)
The Himmelbelt sistem worked with 2 radar sets. One tracked the incoming plane, and other tracked teh night fighter. Using both lectures, the ground controller could give the night fighter very accurate vectors to do an effective interception.As you see, nothing to do with radio triangulation.
And that was since early 1941 :).
[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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"The sector bars are accurate, but another indicator showing approx alt. would also be good. The individual dots are not realistic."
Buzzbait,
Are you saying that the ground controllers would vector a flight to, "a radar contact at 15 thousand feet, somewhere in a 625 square mile sector"?
:)
Didn't they have location accuracy more like the individual dots, than the sector bars?
[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: popeye ]
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How about allowing us to move to HQ and check dot dar over a designated coverage area from there? Then report out dot locations. It would be even better if valeys and low alt flying provided a hiding place from this dar, though anything under a fixed alt could be a suitible substitute.
Destroying HQ would disable this function (should take much less ord than currently needed).
Bar Dar would always be up... regardless of HQ status.
Just a thought.
AKDejaVu
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It's not so much a question of capability as coverage isn't it?
How long did it take the Germans to set up radar coverage over France and the low countries?
Anyone know?
In any event, it's probably not significant in this situation.
Just give it to both sides and... Play The Game.
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Originally posted by Toad:
It's not so much a question of capability as coverage isn't it?
How long did it take the Germans to set up radar coverage over France and the low countries?
Anyone know?
From the book I mentioned "most secret war", by late-1941 the Germans had a reliable link of Freya stations on the Low countries and the biggest part of France.
Is easy to prove, because the RAF did lot of photo-reconnaissance low-level sorties at that time, with Spitfires to find them and to collect intelligence information for the scientists working for the Air staff :)
[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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That's right, didn't the British copy their radar designs from the Germans? Or was it the other way around? I fergit.
-SW
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and who are these "radar operators" who will sit in the tower all nite and vector in ur fighter?
The bar dar is fine, it's different not knowing if the dot u are chasing is friend or foe. Leave the dotted maps in MA.
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I would sit in the tower every now and then acting as an air intercept controller.
I like the idea of having to go to the HQ to see the radar scope, with maybe 2 or 3 seats for controllers. I would like to see the dot size increased or the abililty to zoom in on the scope decreased to prevent pinpoint accuracy and make the numbers of craft in a flight difficult to see. I would also like to have alt added to the readout.
If this were implemnted, I think the dar bar could be removed entirely
Even with all the great things HTC has done, I am still a needy bugger.
F.
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Originally posted by Furious:
I would sit in the tower every now and then acting as an air intercept controller.
I like the idea of having to go to the HQ to see the radar scope, with maybe 2 or 3 seats for controllers. I would like to see the dot size increased or the abililty to zoom in on the scope decreased to prevent pinpoint accuracy and make the numbers of craft in a flight difficult to see. I would also like to have alt added to the readout.
If this were implemnted, I think the dar bar could be removed entirely
Even with all the great things HTC has done, I am still a needy bugger.
F.
sounds good in theory but in rl you can't even get someone to goon when you need them.
"I would also like to have alt added to the readout." - why not speed & direction too .. this seems overboard to me
any dar changes should be more towards a radar "net" whereas you could destroy (blind) sections of the coverage, many mini HQ's, if you will, that require less ord to knock down..
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I often sat in the tower watching the dar in WB, and vectored friendlies to the bad guys. (And I was paying $2.00 an hour to do it.) I thought of it as another interesting (realistic) aspect of the game, and part of the "team thing".
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Eagler,
Heading and speed can be infered by watching the "blips" move, altitude is provided by the radar.
I agree wholeheartedly that all of this should be tied to some sort of communications net. I was just thinking of some place on the map where the controllers could go to have access the the radar scope. Multiple stations providing limited coverage would be great. It would add a valuabe strat target.
F.
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S!
Read the accounts of the time.
British controllers were able to bring Squadrons into positions where they could bounce enemy aircraft.
The good controllers would sometimes say: `look below and too your right, and you`ll see them.` And the pilots would.
Probably something in between the dar bars and the dots on the map is needed.
Maybe a larger shaded area to indicate an approximate aircraft position with height indicated.
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When I played WB I used to spend a minute or two studying the tower radar after a sortie ended (either by landing or dying :) ).
I'd broadcast a brief sitrep on country channel and then head for the action myself.
It's not a foolproof system, but it works OK.
As far as info goes, IIRC the did give rough estimates of number, speed, heading and alt. Not always exact, but fairly reliable.
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I shouldn't have to have somebody else relaying information to me... we can simulate that automatically. Sure, some of you think it's cool to do that, but even back in WB it was pretty rare.
I shouldn't have to rely on somebody else playing that role to get a reasonable amount of information. IE bar dars. Don't force a person into a a role that the computer can do. Sure... allow a person to do that if you like (maybe with higher accuracy or more info like heading and such), but don't require somebody else to do it in order for me to get the information I need.
I also like Buzz's idea of shaded blobs or something instead of bars to give alt and numbers approximate info.
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I actually agree to an extent Lephturn.
I think the bar-dar needs to stay in place to give a pilot general locations. Though, I'd like to see it disabled over enemy territory.
I like the idea of a remote location dar facility for several reasons.
- You can pop in right before your flight to see what's going on.
- Someone else can do this and provide pilots in flight with the info
- It can be its own screen interface meaning it doesn't have to be tied into the kneepad
Of course, there shouldn't be any distinguishing between friendly and enemy planes on it (no colors) and such... and it should be affected by any bombing of radar facilities in some manner.
So.. provide pilots with a means to get more information without making it available on in-flight knee-pads. Keep the current bar dar (with above request for modification noted) so pilots aren't totally reliant on someone feeding them info. That's the way I see things being somewhat realistic and somewhat practical.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
I actually agree to an extent Lephturn.
I think the bar-dar needs to stay in place to give a pilot general locations. Though, I'd like to see it disabled over enemy territory.
I like the idea of a remote location dar facility for several reasons.
- You can pop in right before your flight to see what's going on.
- Someone else can do this and provide pilots in flight with the info
- It can be its own screen interface meaning it doesn't have to be tied into the kneepad
Of course, there shouldn't be any distinguishing between friendly and enemy planes on it (no colors) and such... and it should be affected by any bombing of radar facilities in some manner.
So.. provide pilots with a means to get more information without making it available on in-flight knee-pads. Keep the current bar dar (with above request for modification noted) so pilots aren't totally reliant on someone feeding them info. That's the way I see things being somewhat realistic and somewhat practical.
AKDejaVu
Very reasonable post. Nice ideas DJ.
I have decided not to throw you or the other AK's out the window at the convention.
;)
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You afraid they'll drink you under the table there hb? Heh.
Good idea Deja, that's basically what I envision as well. :)
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"Of course, there shouldn't be any distinguishing between friendly and enemy planes on it (no colors) and such"
I thought they had IFF very early in the war, like during BoB. ???