Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bagrat on February 08, 2006, 12:51:50 AM
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i dont know if this shoulda been posted in the "wishlist" area, but theres been a large amount of disputes as to wether the killshooter should be on or off.
hope I expalin this correctly
Some people wish the bullets would kill the friendly who crosses there line of fire, instead the rounds cause the person firing to take all the damage.
So the problem is some people would go around shootin there own guys down for fun, rite? On the other hand sometimes the guy firing is innocent, and someone else just carelessly jumped infront of the line of fire.
So instead of punishing either of them for more than likely making a careless mistake what if the bullets just had no effect on either of the two country members?
I dont know why this thought just now crossed my mind.
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killshooter off pros and cons:
pros:
you dont get penalised for noobs jumping infront of you.
cons:
idiots shoot own team.
grudge matches occur between friendlies
careless pilots will kill you instead of themselves.
killshooter on pros cons:
pros:
its funny when someone shooting over your shoulder kills themself.
cons:
noobs diving infront of you hurt you if you are not attentive with your gunnery and SA.
not much in it, but in reality killshooter must stay on.
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I liked the AW solution, where if you shot down 3 friendlies or whatever in 24hrs you no longer got live rounds but had to fly for 24hrs shooting blanks. Maybe something along those lines (as one who's on several occaisons had someone cut in front of him, RIGHT as I was pulling the trigger, I'd like to see something done with that).
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ty for response, i understand pros an cons, but dont you think it would be better to just have bullets not have any effect on either allie pilots?
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IIRC this is an incentive for not shooting at friendlies... which is bad, bad bad! (shooting the friendlies, not KS)
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I understand saintaw, but not everyone intentionally shoots at freindlies. But because there is no actual fear of dieng in this game a person does not feel the need to look were bullets are coming from before entering the line of fire.
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I wish we had the AW sollution! Was much better IMHO. But thats just my .02 cents!
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killshooter is the worst 'feature' of the game. it wont change though so dont hold your breath. i even had one dweeb that cut in front of me laugh about it on vox in the tower.
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That's where you switch countries and hunt his bellybutton down.
Killshoot this, biaaaaatch! :D
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SYSTEM: shot down a freindly
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Killshooter is fun! Nothing better on a boring mission then starting to fight your wingman, thinking one small burst cant hurt with my gunnery skills..... only to realise your aim has improved *considerably* over night and you just pilot wounded yourself with a hals second burst out of one bank of 303s......
SYSTEM: Schatzi just killshot herself out of pure boredom....
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Originally posted by Saxman
I liked the AW solution, where if you shot down 3 friendlies or whatever in 24hrs you no longer got live rounds but had to fly for 24hrs shooting blanks. Maybe something along those lines (as one who's on several occaisons had someone cut in front of him, RIGHT as I was pulling the trigger, I'd like to see something done with that).
Jeez! If they had that on AH and it happened to me, I'd cancel my subscription! Paying money to fly around firing blanks? Duh, no.
I'd go with the "no effect if you shoot a friendly" solution. We have it with friendly collisions, so why not with friendly bullets?
KD
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It's pretty simple really.
When you see a friendly plane in your gunsight, don't shoot.
Yeah, yeah I know.
It takes self control and good reflexes but I'm sure you can do it.
Leave killshooter as it is.
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Originally posted by KD303
Jeez! If they had that on AH and it happened to me, I'd cancel my subscription! Paying money to fly around firing blanks? Duh, no.
I'd go with the "no effect if you shoot a friendly" solution. We have it with friendly collisions, so why not with friendly bullets?
KD
KD, because it makes too much damned sense! LOL
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Bah, bunch of arcade weenies! :)
Guns damage what they shoot. They don't care about affiliation. Any other way of making it work in the game is a magic trick that detracts from reality.
I like being able to damage friendlies. I like taking ammo away from those careless enough to do so repeatedly. These things seem real to me, and reality helps me immerse.
culero (likes to use his imagination to imagine reality)
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"I'd go with the "no effect if you shoot a friendly" solution."
Oh yeah that's the solution :rolleyes: Picture this.....
You outmaneuver an opponant and are about 200 yrds off his tail. As you go to press the fire button you see the tracers of the friendlies behind you go THROUGH you and your plane to nail the kill you were lined up on.
The MA goes from HOville to konga line with everyone shooting through each other without regard at the one fleeing enemy bogy.
lol. Yeah that makes a lot of damn sense.
edited: (p.s With the pLaYsK0oL nature of the MA now IMO having friendly fire ON would be the worst option possible.)
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Sigh, its like death and taxes. In AH there are 2 constants. Either someone is whining about collisions, or its killshooter.
Collisions seem to be tougher, people seem to have a harder time of grasping the essentials.
Killshooter, well what all of you seem to have fogotten. Is that having killshooter on has an effect on gameplay. Remove that, and you would quickly find you no longer enjoy the game.
Killshooter on helps keep 5 guys from shooting at you all at the same time.
Hordes & pack flying are bad enough now, you want to make it worse??
Ask any good pilot who's flown here for more than a year.
I bet they don't killshoot themselves more than twice a year, maybe 3 if they are unlucky.
Its all about restraint, not shooting unless you have a clear shot. Situational awareness, ie knowing who else is around you.
If there are 2 guys chasing a con now, why would you need more?
Yet that is exactly the kind of behavior that turning off killshooter would encourage.
If your sending yourself back to tower more than once a month you need to ask yourself what your doing wrong. Either your flying in a pack, or not paying attention to whats around you.
Killshooter is fine, it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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:aok what Westy and Ghosth said.
in 4 years I think I've killshot myself once or twice and caused one or two killshots
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Originally posted by Westy
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edited: (p.s With the pLaYsK0oL nature of the MA now IMO having friendly fire ON would be the worst option possible.)
Of course Westy has a point ....however its self serving.
MA caters for "pLaYsK0oL" mentality and "pLaYsK0oL" mentality is what it eventually gets.
Treat folks like kids and they act like kids............treat kids like kids and they etc etc
I listen to quite non sensical ranting from folk who were not check 6'd by allies around them...................I have to listen to folk who do not want bombers bombing........
The point is not whether I agree or not its that folk do voice their opinions (in game) on their view of proper game play quite vociferously.............. I am sure therefore that folk who shot down allies would quickly be made aware of the error of their ways particularly if system reports awarded friendly kills in a some what public way.
Of course there would be some "lively debates" about thems that fly infront of others etc etc .............nothing new there then!
The idea that Kill shooter stops daisy chains is of course quite wrong............. daisy chains still exist and I regularly see tracer coming past my shoulder............ and allies cutting thru my tracer to gain a snap shot.
I see this often because I am a lousy shot and spend alot of time in saddle to gain a kill ...............thats my problem but kill shooter makes little difference IMO.
Shame will make the difference..................
If Kill shooter was left on another option could be..................
SYSTEM: Died firing on a freindly
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
KD, because it makes too much damned sense! LOL
Because it stops the 10 guys behind me from shooting at the same time. If KS was off, all 10 would be shooting including the 2 lalas comming HO. With KS on, only 1 or 2 guys can fire safely.
You ll probably die from kill shooter without being your fault 1 maybe 2 times per year. Get over it and up again. Planes are free.
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Shame won't do a thing to alter the behavior of the players. Anyone who's been around for any length of time should realize this. Killshooter is not the perfect solution, but it is the most practical. PNG didn't work 100% in AW, and it wouldn't work any better than KS in here. If you KS a friendly, you screwed up, period. Don't shoot greens.
In the limited instances I've seen KS turned off (SEA, CT, and assorted spec events), I've seen friendlies kill multiple friendlies. It's not a feature or improvement I'd like to see in the MA, regardless of how "playsk00l" it is or isn't.
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Originally posted by bagrat
ty for response, i understand pros an cons, but dont you think it would be better to just have bullets not have any effect on either allie pilots?
Seeing as Karnac has not weighed in on this yet ... I will try to help.
If you are tangled in a 3 v 1, and you cause one of the 3, by manuvering, to shoot one of the other friendlies ... one of them MUST go down.
HT chooses to have the one that shot the other friendly, pay the consequences, as opposed to the friendly that got shot, but in virtual "reality" someone HAS TO GO DOWN and rightfully so.
Now ... and correctly, you are now engaged in a 2 v 1. Had killshooter been off, then all 3 could spray and pray without consequence as to where they are spraying and praying.
This topic has been discussed ad nauseum and every angle/suggestion has been gone over and over and over ... and guess what ... HT WILL NEVER CHANGE IT.
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both the shooter and the friendly take damage...
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I confess, I liked the AW solution too. Nothing more fun then having the opportunity to light up a Squaddie on occasion.
You really got good at watching your six if you knew that your wingie might blast you just for fun. I'll never forget diving into save an old Nomad squaddie and having him shoot me down by accident. I uppped and raced back to try and clear him of the mob and he promptly got me again :)
We laughed a long time about that one.
Of course the folks who take this game too seriously wouldn't appreciate the humor in that, but I thought it was funny and wish that was still around for one of those nights where all of a sudden a squad turns in on itself just to change things up :)
And of course if you were the guy PNG you had to go fly with another country to get bullets and you then found out it was kind of fun to shoot at your buddies that way too. Might help with that balance stuff having to switch countries.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I confess, I liked the AW solution too. Nothing more fun then having the opportunity to light up a Squaddie on occasion.
You really got good at watching your six if you knew that your wingie might blast you just for fun. I'll never forget diving into save an old Nomad squaddie and having him shoot me down by accident. I uppped and raced back to try and clear him of the mob and he promptly got me again :)
We laughed a long time about that one.
Of course the folks who take this game too seriously wouldn't appreciate the humor in that, but I thought it was funny and wish that was still around for one of those nights where all of a sudden a squad turns in on itself just to change things up :)
Time Out for you ...Go sit in your room and don't come out till I tell ya.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Time Out for you ...Go sit in your room and don't come out till I tell ya.
Just gotta remember that your beloved or hated BK leader as the case may be, was a strong backer of the system as he was often the last Nomad standing when we'd turn in on each other and start shooting :)
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Fratricide is fun! But only for us, not for the rest of you hosers.
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Can just see the first 262's reaction being killed on take off by a friendly.
Oh yea that would be real fun.
I rember the AW system also, I also see the great selective memorys about it.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Can just see the first 262's reaction being killed on take off by a friendly.
Oh yea that would be real fun.
I rember the AW system also, I also see the great selective memorys about it.
HiTech
I remember lots of grumbling about that too. Personally I don't care either way. Killshooter hasn't been a problem for me here. I can't hit the good guys any better then the bad guys. And if I find myself in a mob chasing one bad guy, I pull out of the crowd most of the time to avoid the chance of killshooter.
I do know that the only times I was PNG in AW were because of shooting squaddies for fun :)
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Originally posted by hitech
Can just see the first 262's reaction being killed on take off by a friendly.
Oh yea that would be real fun.
I rember the AW system also, I also see the great selective memorys about it.
HiTech
What if one of those guys was Hub? Ehhh? Not so bad of an idea now, is it? :rofl
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Deleted
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He's said it many times before but didn't say it here, so I will.
It is the shooters responsibility to make sure it is clear to shoot!
Does it happen that some twit flies in front of your bullets and you take damage? Yes it does, but I can count on one hand the number of times it has happened to me in 2 years of flying AH. Therefor it's not an issue.
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The present way KS is handled forces players to think before shooting in a possible KS situation.
Situational awareness when saddled up for a kill is a very important part of the game, altering KS will only dumb down the game and render useless a experienced players developed skill.
Am I the only player who can count on two hands how many times I've been KS'd after five years in the game?
We see this subject rear it's head every few months, with a bit of effort, the poster could search this forum and get a ton of feedback on this subject since it's been debated since the forums opened and Beta1 was released.
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Killshooter would be improved if the damage was less, IMHO.
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i like killshooter.
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Deleted
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The other options would be insanely gamey. No damage to either, or say 3 friendly kills per day would just be BS. In RL pilots did not shoot over their buddies shoulder trying to steal their kill, and it happens way too much in the MA even with KS.
I think I have kill-shootered myself about 3 times in, what, 8 years? If you have problems with kill-shooter, frankly, 99% of the time it was you own fault, plain and simple. I think anyone foolish enough to shoot a friendly deserves what they get.
Seriously, if this was ever changed the wailing and gnashing of teeth of those shot down byt their own team would be deafening.
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Instead of the shooter taking damage why not have their ammo zero out if they hit a friendly. You essentially solve both complaints there.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Instead of the shooter taking damage why not have their ammo zero out if they hit a friendly. You essentially solve both complaints there.
Because you're encouraging people to take shots that are risky to their own team mates. In RL you DID NOT SHOOT if there was even a remote chance of hitting a friendly. Anything that allows people to dis-regard the safety of their team mates is simply gamey. Might as well add floating power-ups.
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The sugestion changes the basics that some one needs to be out of the fight. No ammo meens the guy is still around.
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how about killshooter gives you an instant rad hit or oil hit - one ping and you are rtb
or even a pilot wound .. no matter how hard/soft the hit on the friendly
at least then the offender has a chance of getting back to base after he realizes his mistake
needs to be a slap on the wrist not heavy damage cause some newbie/scoremonger jumps in front of you right as you fire off both guns point blank range - you die, he gets ur kill and flies away undamaged..as it is now
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Originally posted by hitech
The sugestion changes the basics that some one needs to be out of the fight. No ammo meens the guy is still around.
Exactly ... and in a multi-con situation, you would not know who has and who hasn't got ammo.
Radiator pings or engine hits don't cut the mustard either ... I have killed many with either condition.
If ya KS ... your out of the fight ... and rightfully so.
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I have never taken a shot that was close to somone else but I have had folks fly through me from behind while I was shooting or warp in front of me while shooting. Both of these are gamey reasons that did not exist in real life. This is a game. If somone takes a risk to get a kill and they hit them I believe the should take damage but there is no way to know intent. The beef about KS is that things like I described above happen daily where the shooter has no reason to expect they are going to KS but the game makes it a unexpected reality. By zeroing ammo you give them the benefit of the doubt. People would still try to avoid KS since it leaves them defenseless in the middle of a fight and the quake boys would still be punished. They are not going to stick around in the middle of a fight if they can't get the kill. That is their nature.
There are basically 2 types of players. The sim minded who would not KS on purpose and the quake boys who want to play video games. By the design of the game it caters to both types. The first was never a problem and the second only cares about the lewtest plane and furballing without regard for others. Take away their fun and they will auger or go away not stick in the fight.
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This is an old topic, but it will always be revisited, and for good reason. I noticed no mention of the guy that dives hell bent under their team mates six from 6K above (LA7) :rolleyes: then pulls up from under their team mates nose out in front of his/her line of fire. This is the most common and most un-avoidable Killshooter incident. I do find it unsettling that the innocent is penalized in this scenario.
yall can carry on about the "Self control" all you want. The fact is almost everyone falls prey to the killshooter. I find the comment of guys that say "Ill cancel my subscription if" laughable. Its a good thing it isn’t my Company. I would tell em not to let the door hit em in the arse otw out. Who the hell needs Kids that cant control themselves? I think AH2 players should be held to a higher standard than that of a game that is long since past. AH2 IS the eliet online sim of all time as of right now imo(NO AW DIDNT GO UNDER DUE TO THE PNG watermelon EITHER):rolleyes:
I have learned to live with KS. But i would welcome a change in a heartbeat. Just what that change would be im not sure. PNG is perfectly fine with me. There was always ample warning. And the guys that were responsible enough to care learned usually long before they actually got PNGed. Those that were spiteful...well let’s just say they prolly quit the game anyhow...and most likely went back to their sand box ;)
Originally posted by hitech
The sugestion changes the basics that some one needs to be out of the fight. No ammo meens the guy is still around.
Exactly. So make the jerk off Invisible one way or another. Sure let em fly all over the damn map if he wants a scenic tour. But teach the guy responsible for the incident by making him/her realize that he/she shouldn’t maneuver in front of friendly fire. I have heard some very colorful arguments erupt and disrupt everyone within earshot of the range VOX result from some jerk that just has to have that kill and squirts in front of their countrymen. Instead we punish the guy who fought to saddle up on the bandit in the first place. I know it’s a touchy subject. But I would welcome a different approach.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Sigh, its like death and taxes. In AH there are 2 constants. Either someone is whining about collisions, or its killshooter.
Collisions seem to be tougher, people seem to have a harder time of grasping the essentials.
Killshooter, well what all of you seem to have fogotten. Is that having killshooter on has an effect on gameplay. Remove that, and you would quickly find you no longer enjoy the game.
Killshooter on helps keep 5 guys from shooting at you all at the same time.
Hordes & pack flying are bad enough now, you want to make it worse??
Ask any good pilot who's flown here for more than a year.
I bet they don't killshoot themselves more than twice a year, maybe 3 if they are unlucky.
Its all about restraint, not shooting unless you have a clear shot. Situational awareness, ie knowing who else is around you.
If there are 2 guys chasing a con now, why would you need more?
Yet that is exactly the kind of behavior that turning off killshooter would encourage.
If your sending yourself back to tower more than once a month you need to ask yourself what your doing wrong. Either your flying in a pack, or not paying attention to whats around you.
Killshooter is fine, it ain't broke, don't fix it!
well said.
i havnt killshot myself since sometime back in early 2005 when i hit another friendly attacking some buffs.
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We should remember that png was dropped by AW some years before the end....................
I still say shame works ........... AW did prove that big style IMO.
The fact that we give up on it so easy is symptomatic of the AH MA.........
Folk that risk KS do so quite happily just like their ilk will risk HO's.............. I mean who will know .................really? They just re up again.......rinse repeat.
Whether KS is on or not a ramification should be a system report of the perpitrators deed IMO. The shame of its broadcast and the immediate reaction in the arena would be quite enough.
re HT's 262......well a "freindly kill switch" in the COAD would sort that out ensuring no perks were lost due to freindly fire.
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Don't forget that in AW there were game ops who did crowd control. That helped contribute to keeping fratricide down more than anything else - be that going "png" or hoping for "shame" to keep the peace - IMO.
Killshooter is one type of blind justice that works as a sort of behavior control. An all without anyone having to apply it or get involved to settle a quarrel or problem.
And there's no doubt in my mind that without killshooter (in conjunction with the lack of 7X24 gameops) that subscriptions to AH would rapidly decline.
IMO if you (meaning anyone who dislikes HTC's killshooter) find yourself on the tard side of killshooter a lot then it truly IS your problem and not bad feature mechanics.
If it happens infrequently then there's no problem (compared to a problem that could be there) so just put a cork in it. I'm sure you'd be the first to run to the forums and whine about going png or having to suffer from a friendly griefer shooting you down twice (In AW the tards always held off on the third friendly kill or do you folks not remember that?) from an ack gun as you try to land your "points"
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MUTED FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH! :rofl
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how about if an enemy is near you killshooter is off and when no enemies are near it is on.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
MUTED FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH! :rofl
FIGHT THE POWA!@!@!@:D
:noid
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This is general discusion....someone brings up a subject and we are supposed to discuss it, if you do not agree with it the idea do you all have to always respond with sarcasm!
and then u guys wonder why peolpe dont play with "honor" ( childish rolling eye picture goes here).
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killshooter only punishes the guy with the slowest plane, period.
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Originally posted by bagrat
This is general discusion....someone brings up a subject and we are supposed to discuss it, if you do not agree with it the idea do you all have to always respond with sarcasm!
and then u guys wonder why peolpe dont play with "honor" ( childish rolling eye picture goes here).
There are degrees of "seriousness" that people take upon this game.
Some take it as a "game" ... so they don't get all wrapped up in "honor", killshooter, rams, HOs, La-7s, etc. and cause themselves much angst and anger and enjoy the game for what it is worth.
Some take it as "life altering" ... like what happens in this game had some bearing on their future, or it will get them that job they always wanted, or a super-model girlfriend, etc. and when things go wrong for them ... killshooter, rams, HOs, La-7s, etc. they accuse others of not playing the game with "honor" and/or have a meltdown on CH 200 and/or they run to this BBS and create posts such as this.
This topic has been beat beyond death ... you can't blame those, who have read this particular whine at least a gagillion times, for poking fun at it and not take it seriously (sarcasm).
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We have Killshooter????????:O
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
killshooter only punishes the guy with the slowest plane, period.
No, KS only punishes the idiot shooting green planes.
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The real key with killshooter is to have good SA. If you are chasing an enemy plane, and clearly have him lined up and are going to get the kill, but hear a slightly faster friendly comming in to help with your sure kill, it is imperative that YOU as the lead plane keep aware of when he may be shooting over your left, or right wingtip. There is no other way you can be sure to barrel roll in the correct direction to ensure the kill stealing bastage hits your plane:rofl
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Ok total newbie veiw here...first off, isnt it true you dont shoot unless you have first identified your target and have a shot? Being formaer military and a hunter this has been stressed to me since I was a young'en(no I am from the north). I can see making a mistake if a friendly crosses your sights as you fire or you try a deflection shot and are totally off and hit a trailing friendly, but there should be no other time this happens.
Like someone else said I have a hard enough time trying to hit and enemy target let alone someone that might help watch my 6.
AH handle-- Alan68
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Slapshot I havent killshot myself off another plane in months, and when I do accidently hurt my plane I can stop myself before killing my plane.
It is not a big problem for me, however when I feel an idea is reasonable I would post it to see what others oppinion is on it, In hopes of getting mature responses and some do. You seem to think yourself as selfrighteous tossing hasty comments out here.
I dont know how to explain it to you or others here who find that whenever someone suggests an idea, think it is a "whine" or "play my way idea".
Keep in mind if everyone was so content with what they had we would not have all the things we currently have to make life better. Now your probably thinking "well now he is comparing a game to real life", NO i am saying as long as there is room for improvement people should be able to suggest ideas of improvement withuot being ridiculed.
some believe that the problem with kill shooter is that people lob shots over a friendlys shoulder . BUT the scenario I had in mind was when u are 400 behind a plane and @ full zoom (this gives you somewhat a tunnel, narrow vission, and then a friendly suddenly pops into sight while u are firing off rounds.
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doesnt take but one damn ping if you fly an A8 or 110
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Anyone who's had the "pleasure" of flying in the DA when some quaketard decides to shoot everyone will argue for the killshooter.
These guys just want to splat everyone's fun, and absolutely, 100% dont care if it gets folks mad. In fact, that probably adds to their twisted enjoyment. Still remember one guy who repeatedly upped 163s and would fire straight down the runway with engine off, popping anyone else in the process of getting airborne. The DA community responded y trying to vulch him...with unintended consequences, because regulars just joioning had no idea what was going on and got vulched too. Not pretty.
So the public disapproval idea flat will not work against those most likely to create problems.
I've bumped into the same mindset in the MA. Still remember one guy who upped Nik behind me and fired, killing himself. He upped again, and I explained what happened and why. The dude did it FOUR MORE TIMES. I actually throttled down so he could catch up and killshoot himself.
Do you think this guy would be influenced by anything short of the current system? How long do you think it would have taken him to get tired of nuking everyone elses fun? And, how many of these 2 weekers would it take to destroy the environment in the MA?
I say dont change a thing.
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i hope HTC lets killshooter stay the way it is
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sim, if he just lost all of his ammo each time he hit someone elsehow many times more wouldhe have done it? They get no gratification at all. No boom boom of any sort just no ammo. HT will almost certainly keep things the way they are currently since he believes thats the way he wants it. The point of hashing ideas around is just that. No ones opinion matters more than the next except HT.
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This thread is gayer than (some of) the BKs. All this talk about a couple of deaths per year? Does 2 or 3 matter when you die thousands of times?
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Killshooter will never change. This is a good thing. Why must threads like this pop up at least once a week?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Killshooter will never change. This is a good thing. Why must threads like this pop up at least once a week?
-- Todd/Leviathn
Because it is an imperfect solution?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Because it is an imperfect solution?
It is the best solution. Nobody said it was perfect.
So why do threads like this persist?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Just an odd thought, what if there's still a penalty, but a little different than killshooter... bear with me a moment on this idea of lunacy =)
Instead of killshooter, what do you think of this...
The friendly hit takes damage as he would if were enemy. The shooter, upon landing gets 0 perks (or negative if they die), 0 towards score, does NOT display on the bar if they land multiple kills, and takes a time penalty before next allowed takeoff such as 5 minutes for first offense, 60 minutes for 2nd offense, 3 hours for 3rd offense for any vehicles with ENY under 40.
This way, the friendly would still go down, which is realistic. The shooter would be penalized and get nothing positive for the kill (ESPECIALLY no "name in lights" notification), and now are limited to taking planes which, while may be somewhat effective, are not "uber" aircraft, putting him at a disadvantage.
This way, if the guy GETTING shot down was shot down because he was too agressive (i.e. diving within the gun path), he is penalized by losing his plane. The Shooter is penalized as well, and the overly agressive will now understand they have to keep themselves in check if they want to pilot specific planes. Mistakes will still happen, but I think this can be an incentive to both not TK (team kill), but also not get in the way of someone else's shot.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
So why do threads like this persist?
Because people dont like to accuse themselves in their own faults. Always better to accuse somebody or something else.
I wonder why htc dont close such threads as soon as they created. They are all same.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
It is the best solution.
That's one opinion.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
It is the best solution. Nobody said it was perfect.
So why do threads like this persist?
-- Todd/Leviathn
Because of rocket scientists like Sandman. It is the best solution. If you have a better one lets hear it.
KS rocks and if you die you deserve it for shooting one of your own.
Besides that it's great fun flying (on slow nights) in front of somebody spraying that you don't like. :t
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
It is the best solution. Nobody said it was perfect.
So why do threads like this persist?
-- Todd/Leviathn
Because someone got killshot and got their thong in a not. So they come on here whining about it.
As far as these threads and the predictable response. If you don't take the time to do a search for "killshooter" and read the gazillion threads on this subject and the gazillion times HT has said "IT AIN"T GONNA CHANGE" then you get what you deserve.
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Originally posted by DipStick
Because of rocket scientists like Sandman. It is the best solution. If you have a better one lets hear it.
KS rocks and if you die you deserve it for shooting one of your own.
Besides that it's great fun flying (on slow nights) in front of somebody spraying that you don't like. :t
Thanks for saying one thing while making the case for the other Dipstick. The reason why this keeps coming up is an unjust situation where some loser flys through you or warps through you and you get hit by killshooter thanks to a gamey situation beyond your control. If you gave the KShooter the benefit of the doubt this would not come up nearly as often.
Nice Russian solution there Oleg..>
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Originally posted by Knite
Just an odd thought, what if there's still a penalty, but a little different than killshooter... bear with me a moment on this idea of lunacy =)
Instead of killshooter, what do you think of this...
The friendly hit takes damage as he would if were enemy. The shooter, upon landing gets 0 perks (or negative if they die), 0 towards score, does NOT display on the bar if they land multiple kills, and takes a time penalty before next allowed takeoff such as 5 minutes for first offense, 60 minutes for 2nd offense, 3 hours for 3rd offense for any vehicles with ENY under 40.
This way, the friendly would still go down, which is realistic. The shooter would be penalized and get nothing positive for the kill (ESPECIALLY no "name in lights" notification), and now are limited to taking planes which, while may be somewhat effective, are not "uber" aircraft, putting him at a disadvantage.
This way, if the guy GETTING shot down was shot down because he was too agressive (i.e. diving within the gun path), he is penalized by losing his plane. The Shooter is penalized as well, and the overly agressive will now understand they have to keep themselves in check if they want to pilot specific planes. Mistakes will still happen, but I think this can be an incentive to both not TK (team kill), but also not get in the way of someone else's shot.
Sorry ... but if I am going to fly 15 minutes to get to a fight and get fragged by some yahoo that wants to shoot over my shoulder while I am locked on someone's 6 ... I would quit this game in a New York second ... and I don't think that I would be the only one that would follow this route.
If you shoot a friendly ... then it's YOU that must pay the consequence ... you are, for the most part, in control of your own destiny. For those very infrequent situtations that you get killshooter cause some jerk flys into your bullet stream ... oh well ... get pissed ... count to 10 ... get a new plane.
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Originally posted by Sandman
That's one opinion.
Frankly, it is the only opinion that matters since HiTech shares it. Does anyone honestly believe that after 10-15 years somebody will miraculously stumble upon the "better thing" that will send HTC racing to change killshooter?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Here is the fix. HT remove 3 deaths from everyones score (thats about how many times they will killshooter them selfs in a year). There, nothing to whine about now :huh
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Frankly, it is the only opinion that matters since HiTech shares it. Does anyone honestly believe that after 10-15 years somebody will miraculously stumble upon the "better thing" that will send HTC racing to change killshooter?
-- Todd/Leviathn
I can honestly expect that this topic will continue to thrive as long as HTC does.
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Originally posted by DipStick
Because of rocket scientists like Sandman. It is the best solution. If you have a better one lets hear it.
Eagler's idea would be an improvement.
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Originally posted by Westy
... (In AW the tards always held off on the third friendly kill or do you folks not remember that?) ...
I also remember "community action" against these people in AW (everybody kills the idiot once and only once until he/she/it gets the message). The only people I remember having a problem with the PNG system were on the recieving end of the chain and they learned quickly or they left the game. It wasn't a big deal and it didn't happen very often.
The difference between the two systems is that one is based on the assumption that players should get what they ask for (i.e. be treated as adults) and the other isn't.
asw
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The only people I remember having a problem with the PNG system were on the recieving end of the chain and they learned quickly or they left the game.
Raises hand ,"Ooo Ooo ,Mister Cottta mister Cotta"
I had multiple issues with the PNG system. And was never on the recieving end of a hunt.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Raises hand ,"Ooo Ooo ,Mister Cottta mister Cotta"
Now you're dating yourself... LOL... Arnold Horshack.
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A separate subject but it would be nice to have a "hunt the leper" in the MA. We had this come up before regarding a big mouth in the MA. Would sure be a fun feature if folks could type ".leper "mr bigmouth" and they would show up as a large red X on everyones dar... Bet that would make chan 200 a bit more civil.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I can honestly expect that this topic will continue to thrive as long as HTC does.
I do too, but that's sort of the problem. I'd be shocked if killshooter in the MA ever changed, and if it does, I doubt it would have anything to do with threads like this.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Sandman
Eagler's idea would be an improvement.
How so? I see a system like that leading to griefing the likes of which AW never experienced, because you can kill friendlies without fear of some sort of PNG punishment. If someone wants to grief others, what would a system like that do to dissuade him?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Killshooter, well what all of you seem to have fogotten. Is that having killshooter on has an effect on gameplay. Remove that, and you would quickly find you no longer enjoy the game.
I dunno about all that. During the time I played AirWarrior my bullets couldnt damage friendly planes. I enjoyed that game immensely :)
Otoh, my bullets (if I did hit a friendly) didnt pass through the friendly plane either, they just stopped w/o inflicting damage.
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It is the best solution. Nobody said it was perfect.
Not imo it isnt. :D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
How so? I see a system like that leading to griefing the likes of which AW never experienced, because you can kill friendlies without fear of some sort of PNG punishment. If someone wants to grief others, what would a system like that do to dissuade him?
-- Todd/Leviathn
Hmmm... Eagler did not suggest that HTC remove the killshooter penalty. He suggests that the penalty could be less severe than it is.
Originally posted by Eagler
how about killshooter gives you an instant rad hit or oil hit - one ping and you are rtb
or even a pilot wound .. no matter how hard/soft the hit on the friendly
at least then the offender has a chance of getting back to base after he realizes his mistake
needs to be a slap on the wrist not heavy damage cause some newbie/scoremonger jumps in front of you right as you fire off both guns point blank range - you die, he gets ur kill and flies away undamaged..as it is now
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The simple fact is that killshooter is needed. The solution I would suggest to bury this debate once and for all is for hitech to switch it off along with friendly collisions and friendly flak. Announce it well in advance and watch what happens. Say for a period of hours or a day or whatever.
I think that would stop the debate cold as the mayhem breaks out. Quite simply this is a mere simulation of war, a game whether we like it or not. We cannot really die and we feel no guilt if we causes someone else to die. There are no real consequences of our actions unlike in real life.
Lets say Pilot X steps in and steals a kill from me. Now I'm :mad: From now on every time I see his icon. I will latch onto his six and down him. Naturally he dislike this and retaliates. But I have friends and they murder him every time he appears. But he has friends and they have friends and friends of friends. Soon we are organising missions to wipe out the opposing groups from our own country. Civil war. Ok it's an exaggeration. But retaliation and grudges would happen.
Accidental collisions would be frequent and it would be difficult to land kills.
You couldn't go near friendly bases under attack as the friendly fire would down you.
Without killshooter the game becomes a free for all which would be fine but what limited realism there is would be gone. A deathmatch.
Does anyone want that?
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Originally posted by culero
Bah, bunch of arcade weenies! :)
Guns damage what they shoot. They don't care about affiliation. Any other way of making it work in the game is a magic trick that detracts from reality.
I like being able to damage friendlies. I like taking ammo away from those careless enough to do so repeatedly. These things seem real to me, and reality helps me immerse.
culero (likes to use his imagination to imagine reality)
In AH your guns dont damage what they shoot.....IF you happen to hit a friendly, in that case YOUR guns damage YOU.
Just curious, how does that help your immersion? :)
Friendly collisions are off, I guess thats a magic trick too :)
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PNG was a good system, but it was far from perfect... unfortunately, score and perks mean more to some people in here and it would be rife with complaints.
Leave the current system alone (tho I'd like to 'frag' some people, including squadmates), its far from perfect., but its better than the alternative.
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
killshooter only punishes the guy with the slowest plane, period.
I strongly disagree!! Im usually the slowest plane around.
And i only ever killshoot myself "intentionally" ie, when im bored fighting a friendly.
IMHO killshooter setting is perfectly ok. PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE - all the more in aerial combat. Hold your guns untill you got a clear shot, then fire a one second burst to take out the enemy. Never killshoot myself doing that.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
And i only ever killshoot myself "intentionally" ie, when im bored fighting a friendly.
Flying a Hurri1, that is no big surprise. ;)
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Originally posted by hitech
I had multiple issues with the PNG system.
HiTech
While I think a change in the system for handling griefers wouldn't be a good idea in the MA at this point, I am interested in reading what your issues with a PNG type system are or were. I'm not trying to be provocative here, I am curious.
asw
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
It is the best solution. Nobody said it was perfect.
So why do threads like this persist?
-- Todd/Leviathn
Bingo! Well said.
What many people are missing here, is KS is a PUNISHMENT. It is a deterent to shooting at/near friendlies and forces people to play in a more realistic fashion. Any of the other "solutions" so far proposed would only increase over-the-shoulder-shooting and kill-stealing would run rampant. Ya'll would be begging for KS after you had numerous kills stolen from you by unscupulous griefer types.
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Originally posted by hitech
Raises hand ,"Ooo Ooo ,Mister Cottta mister Cotta"
I had multiple issues with the PNG system. And was never on the recieving end of a hunt.
HiTech
Come on HiTech, tell us some stories!! Love to hear others stories :)
Btw HiTech, what issues do you have with your bullets not harming friendlies? (Bullets dont pass through friendlies, they just dont do damage to friendly aircraft/vehicles) We have this now with ordinance.
That isnt any more *gamey* than not being able to collide with friendlies either :)
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killshooter = instant karma
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Originally posted by g00b
Bingo! Well said.
What many people are missing here, is KS is a PUNISHMENT. It is a deterent to shooting at/near friendlies and forces people to play in a more realistic fashion. Any of the other "solutions" so far proposed would only increase over-the-shoulder-shooting and kill-stealing would run rampant. Ya'll would be begging for KS after you had numerous kills stolen from you by unscupulous griefer types.
The only times I have killshootered were times when a friendly warped in front of me OR......dove in from a perch, right through my bullet stream. I keep tracers on so friendly's know when I am firing.
In the first case, I am being punished for someone else's warp. In the second case, I am being punished for someone else's stupidity. There is nothing realistic about flying through someone else's bullet stream and watching THEM die from their own bullets. Realisticaly (sp) no pilot in their right mind would intentionally fly into ANYONE's bullet stream, friendly or enemy :)
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Originally posted by Delirium
Flying a Hurri1, that is no big surprise. ;)
Well, no shoulder clapping intended, but the few times i *did* killshoot myself (in a HMk1) i ended up either with a pilot kill, a pilot wound, or at least considerable damage.
Unless of course i intended for the killshot and didnt want to down myself, shooting only half second bursts with one bank of 303s.
PS: I *never* downed myself unintentionally by KS with any plane (and i fly cannoned armed planes as well ;)).
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Originally posted by Elfie
Realisticaly (sp) no pilot in their right mind would intentionally fly into ANYONE's bullet stream, friendly or enemy :)
I have seen gun camera footage of a friendly plane flying in front of another while it was firing. Don't know if it was intentional or not. :D
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I think Nath said it best when he informed Birdo, "Don't shoot the greens".
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I give up, im not even going to try to attempt to explain again most u guys are retarded, im tryin to keep civil but you all keep comin back with sarcasm and insults.
Im sure one of u will be offended an also have some quick comeback for this one too, so go for it......
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Originally posted by SuperDud
I think Nath said it best when he informed Birdo, "Don't shoot the greens".
AMEN
Bronk
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Bagrat, we're not all being sarcastic, and there's nothing you could explain to us anyway. The basic premise here is that KS is supposed to be bad. It isn't supposed to be fun or earn you perks; it's in place to deter a specific behavior. There's no better solution to accomplish what HTC wants here.
The only problem is that you're too ****ing stupid to read and comprehend what's been said about 9,000 times.
Don't shoot greens! How much ****ing plainer do you need it to be?
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hey **** you hubs
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kill shooter isn't perfect, but what in life is....especially in a game played over the intardnet.
i do have a couple of solutions worth considering though :rolleyes:
1) HTC could turn of kill shooter, so that everyone can kill everyone. The next step would be to go to NATO and get some peace keepers or even better would be to hire some mercenaries, so that they in turn could shoot down the offending parties. and don't worry about being vulched by your own team, im sure that would never happen.
2) install floating repair rings, so that if someone jumps in front of you will shooting, inadvertently k/s yourself, you still have a chance to fire the back-up thrusters and anti gravity modules, so that you can make it through the ring, which also refuels, so you can continue fight.
3)make it so no bullets harm friendly planes, just spray and pray you get your kill before the other guy, a valid tactic used in WW2. though they did have deflector shields back then, which haven't been added to ah2 yet.
in all cases, we should also be able to "tag" passing clouds with our own custom pics.:aok Vast
ps. i just had another brainstorm, what if instead of mercs we had monkeys. how awesome would that be....one second your thinking "oh, its ok, its just a merc." and then you take a second look and your like "omg its not a merc, its a freaking monkey.":O
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Killshooter will never change. This is a good thing. Why must threads like this pop up at least once a week?
-- Todd/Leviathn
I guess because we keep replying to them.
NO reply = NO thread....just a single Post.
I try...i really do...its just so...so....dang hard.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Bagrat, we're not all being sarcastic, and there's nothing you could explain to us anyway. The basic premise here is that KS is supposed to be bad. It isn't supposed to be fun or earn you perks; it's in place to deter a specific behavior. There's no better solution to accomplish what HTC wants here.
The only problem is that you're too ****ing stupid to read and comprehend what's been said about 9,000 times.
Don't shoot greens! How much ****ing plainer do you need it to be?
Dang your retarded. Did you comprehend anything that was said here?
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alright hopefuly this is the last time. My irriitation is not because of your oppinions, it is from how some of you choose to post it.
I posted this idea as in "hey i think this may be a good idea, ill share it to see what they think of it", And what I get is " Quit whinning because your so stupid u cant stop shooting at friendly planes"
picture this, your flying in your plane and you jump on an enemys six."still following", alright. You are 400 or so behind the enemy plane, there are no friendly planes between you and the plane. You begin to fire while trying to stay on this planes tail. your bullets are in flight heading towards there target."still with me" all of a sudden a friendly plane flys through the path of your rounds. You have already let go of the trigger, but your rounds are still traveling. The guy firing is punished as if he were intentionally firing at a friendly. (this is the scenario I had in mind)
You are all probably picturing this.
Im flying in a nik and see a plane being chased by 5 or more friendlies, and decide to also jump into the conga line. 1k away from the enemy plane (flying in a straight line) easily visible friendly, but decude to hold down the trigger until I run out of rounds killing myself from hitting friendly planes.
anyway i did not post those scenarios to further my argument but to possibly clear up the situation.
I still feel that alot of you "not all" but alot are very narrow minded.i dunno why I exchanged cutdowns with you guys, "supposebly mature adults" I called ya retarded an quickly was called retarded back. I
TY
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I think the argument they're trying to make is that the former case, where the shooter is screwed over by the stupidity of an over-eager kill-stealer, happens infrequently enough that it's not worth changing the KS model over (although I had it happen two days in a row).
Personally, I agree with you that there must be a better way to do it, but the problem is how to do it so the right guy is penalized.
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Originally posted by bagrat
The guy firing is punished as if he were intentionally firing at a friendly. (this is the scenario I had in mind)
In this scenario, you are not being punished for intentionally firing at a friendly. You are being punished for your failure of situational awareness.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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"I still feel that alot of you "not all" but alot are very narrow minded."
True. I'm guilty og it.
However I'd rather be narrow minded from experience than shallow minded from none.
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Todd , point being in this game folks warp back and forth hundreds of yards instantly, there are also heros like above who will intentionally dive through you to steal your target and inflict killshooter on you. Just as killshooter is intended to stop abuse in its current implementation it is open to those who wish to abuse it an to Internet realities.
Everyone agrees that it works to stop idiots from shooting you but some don't grasp the above which is why this keeps coming up.
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When you call me retarded because you don't understand, or can't/haven't communicated a point well, don't expect me to be pleasant. While I may or may not be narrow minded, I can only come up with about 4 or 5 situations where KS is possible (or at least where I've done it), and none where it's unavoidable.
As Hitech has said many times (perhaps you haven't seen all of the threads), the shooter is at all times responsible for knowing what's happening around him. The friendly who crosses through your bullet path isn't at fault (although he's arguably also displaying bad SA); you can't shoot him unless you pull the trigger. A lot of people have suggested a lot of ideas over the years, and none that I've seen or can imagine accomplish the same things. For it to work in the MA, it's got to deter fragging teammates, remove the extra bad guy from a fight, and/or not punish the innocent while punishing the party at fault.
I'd like to see film of "those above" abusing the KS setup. I think, and I won't bother putting this mildly, that you're lying in an attempt to bolster your position. While you cite "internet realities", you need to consider also that those same realities apply to everyone in the arena. Using the justification that KS needs to be changed or removed because you might possibly shoot someone because they're warping just doesn't float.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Todd , point being in this game folks warp back and forth hundreds of yards instantly, there are also heros like above who will intentionally dive through you to steal your target and inflict killshooter on you. Just as killshooter is intended to stop abuse in its current implementation it is open to those who wish to abuse it an to Internet realities.
[/b]
First, you overstate the level of warping in the game. Hell, I have never died via killshooter to someone who warped in front of me. Never. Not once in six years. Thus at some fundamental level you can do something that prevents or reduces killshooter deaths by this unfortunate turn of events. That might be connect related, but I've gone from a 28.8k modem to a 56k modem to a cable modem in all those years and never experienced warp-related killshooter deaths.
Second, the "hero" diving through trying to draw killshooter goes back to my original point: a situational awareness failure. Engaging in effective situational awareness means knowing the locations and intentions of enemies as well as friends. Dying to killshooter in this instance represents a lapse in situational awareness and falls only on the shoulders of the killshooter.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Todd.
I have experienced people warping back and forth several hundred yards while flying in formation and while persuing people. There are several films posted with planes warping around so its not just me.
Hubs,
Ya, I'm lying though you have no evidence to back up your position. Maybe you assume that since something is OK for you to do then others do so as well?
Did you not see Dipsticks post above? He tells you he does it but if I point it out I must be lying. Ya, your on top of it....
:aok
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I don't dispute that planes warp around, rabbidrabbit. I'm disputing that this warping somehow makes killshooter inevitable or common. I've been through all kinds of connections throughout the years, and despite planes warping around, I have never once died to one via killshooter.
So again this goes back to situational awareness and making sure you're in close enough to an enemy that you have almost no threat of killshooting on someone.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I have had it happen but more often I have warped into bombers while making gunnery passes. I don't know how common it is but its one of the reasons this keeps coming up.
My proposal gives the benefit of the doubt to the KS'er while still effectively removing them from the fight. Ht doesn't like because he thinks someone must take the damage. In my experience I have let off the trigger if I suspected anyone was too close and have only died once in 4 years that I can think off. The other times I just took some hits or damage so the solution I proposed is actually more severe in my case. There is no perfect solution and never will be but as long as people die or take damage due to the inappropiate behavior of others you will see these threads.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
I have had it happen but more often I have warped into bombers while making gunnery passes. I don't know how common it is but its one of the reasons this keeps coming up.
-has nothing to do with the KS problem you're trying to describe.
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
My proposal gives the benefit of the doubt to the KS'er while still effectively removing them from the fight.
-taking ammo away from someone doesn't take them out of the fight. The lone con you're mobbing doesn't know who has ammo and who doesn't.
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
and have only died once in 4 years that I can think off.
-WTF are you crying about then?
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
There is no perfect solution and never will be but as long as people die or take damage due to the inappropiate behavior of others you will see these threads.
-again, the only inappropriate behavior is shooting green planes.
Regarding the film: you state that people dive through you (presumably you meant in front of you) to KS people and steal kills, and use dipstick's remark as proof positive. I say that without film, this claim is just like so many others posted on this board; that is to say, bull****. Considering you say you have only 1 death to KS in 4 years, I'd say it isn't much of a problem, despite your whining to the contrary. Your demand that I post film of something not happening a vast majority of the time is kind of pointless. I can post lots of film of people not KSing due to lag. That's not the issue. The issue is that you claim it's being abused, and have absolutely no way to back that statement up. So, post some film or cease and desist.
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-has nothing to do with the KS problem you're trying to describe.
this may come as a surprise but I wasn't talking to you.
-taking ammo away from someone doesn't take them out of the fight. The lone con you're mobbing doesn't know who has ammo and who doesn't.
If you read what was said about this above you would realise why you are wrong. Do I need to copy and paste it or can you reread the thread?
-WTF are you crying about then?
Where am I crying? Feel free to quote me.
-again, the only inappropriate behavior is shooting green planes.
Regarding the film: you state that people dive through you (presumably you meant in front of you) to KS people and steal kills, and use dipstick's remark as proof positive. I say that without film, this claim is just like so many others posted on this board; that is to say, bull****. Considering you say you have only 1 death to KS in 4 years, I'd say it isn't much of a problem, despite your whining to the contrary. Your demand that I post film of something not happening a vast majority of the time is kind of pointless. I can post lots of film of people not KSing due to lag. That's not the issue. The issue is that you claim it's being abused, and have absolutely no way to back that statement up. So, post some film or cease and desist.
When did I demand you post a film? Feel free to quote again...
Someone says they do it and I have seen it tried in the past. I don't have a film because I did not spend my life expecting to have to prove something to you. One does not need evidence of observable fact.
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Nor was I addressing you when you first chimed in and called me retarded. Point being?
If you can tie your inane ramblings together in such a way as to illustrate how lag, ramming bombers, Dipstick winding you up, your dislike of me, and incidents of no one KSing anyone else are manifestations of the greater issue of KS not working well, I'd greatly appreciate it.
If not, piss off.
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Originally posted by bagrat
picture this, your flying in your plane and you jump on an enemys six."still following", alright. You are 400 or so behind the enemy plane, there are no friendly planes between you and the plane. You begin to fire while trying to stay on this planes tail. your bullets are in flight heading towards there target."still with me" all of a sudden a friendly plane flys through the path of your rounds. You have already let go of the trigger, but your rounds are still traveling. The guy firing is punished as if he were intentionally firing at a friendly. (this is the scenario I had in mind)
TY
The Bishop have a countrymen that is fast becoming noted for his KILL HUNGRY antics and zooming in front of friendly guns at a regular pace these days, causing multiple K/S incidents daily. Advise....find where he is flying...and avoid that area or you will soon find out how often K/S will strike you down.
I would have to say that nearly everyone of the repliers of this thread know exactly what you are talking about. They have been either the Perpetrator, the Punished or Both. Instead of keeping it civil, many insist on starting a heated argument by way of talking down to others. Get used to it, this IS the AH BBS BS community.
Their point is simple...we all have come to the place where we have adjusted for K/S. Its just another pain in the arse we have to get used to or leave the game.
Is it the supreme answer? IMO...NO...
Is it as good as it can get? IMO...NO...
is it going to change? Very unlikely.
It really is that simple.
:aok
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I think this says it all
Kill Shooter (Loose Rivets 26-05-01)[/B]
(http://www.jtsystems.demon.co.uk/duma/images/cartoons/looserivets/260201.jpg)
I whish I could take credit for these masterful depictions of the AH community, alas I cannot. As a newer member of it, I find it interesting to see how similar the old and the new are
All
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That can't be happening Mugzee cuz Hubs says so.
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Last time: the problem isn't the KS setup, and it isn't a "kill-hungry" bish. The problem is that you guys keep shooting other green guys.
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The world is not as simple as you Hubs. Thats the problem here.
You have brought nothing to the table beyond non stop and mindless trolling and hijacking.
If you even read what I wrote you would see my points and that I have not even called for them to change it. I explained why it keeps coming up and believe there are better ways to do the same thing but accept its not my decision and respect that. I have reread everything you posted here and I fail to see anything of value you added. For that matter you went well out of your way to fabricate other peoples positions just to take cheapshots at them. Your showing here is sad and lacking even in basic respect and honor. Thats why I keep holding your feet to the fire.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
If you even read what I wrote you would see my points and that I have not even called for them to change it.
Your first post:
Instead of the shooter taking damage why not have their ammo zero out if they hit a friendly. You essentially solve both complaints there.
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
You have brought nothing to the table beyond non stop and mindless trolling and hijacking.
My first post:
Originally posted by HubsonfireShame won't do a thing to alter the behavior of the players. Anyone who's been around for any length of time should realize this. Killshooter is not the perfect solution, but it is the most practical. PNG didn't work 100% in AW, and it wouldn't work any better than KS in here. If you KS a friendly, you screwed up, period. Don't shoot greens.
In the limited instances I've seen KS turned off (SEA, CT, and assorted spec events), I've seen friendlies kill multiple friendlies. It's not a feature or improvement I'd like to see in the MA, regardless of how "playsk00l" it is or isn't.
Your first attempt at hijacking:
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
A separate subject but it would be nice to have a "hunt the leper" in the MA. We had this come up before regarding a big mouth in the MA. Would sure be a fun feature if folks could type ".leper "mr bigmouth" and they would show up as a large red X on everyones dar... Bet that would make chan 200 a bit more civil.
My attempt at a hijack:
Originally posted by Hubsonfire
I read what you wrote, and you posted 4 times describing the "benefits" of removing KS, and simply taking the ammo away from people. This in no way ensures the fight remains even, in now way discourages KSing (that newb with no bullets will likely try to fly in front of you once he figures out why he keeps losing his ammo, thereby inflicting the same punishment on you), and in no way improves gameplay.
In regards to your comments in the final post, I was insulted, called retarded (by the marginally literate, no less), and never hijacked nor trolled, while you have basically insulted, changed positions, trolled and flamed us because we failed to embrace your half-assed idea. Look, I'm sorry if you're on your period, or having a bad day, or whatever. The points remain: KS works as it is, there isn't a better setup that accomplishes what HTC wants, only his opinion matters anyway, and just being a ******* to me because I don't like your idea isn't going to win additional support for the half-baked idea you posted.
So, unless you've got a better solution that addresses the problems HT has mentioned as the basis for the current setup, or if you're just going to keep flaming away, talking about how you're holding my feet to the fire by displaying your ignorance, just shut the **** up already.
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Somebody just got hubpwnd ... :rofl
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Its funny....
People who get killed by killshooter whine about the other guy beeing kill greedy... sure he cut the line but you where the one so kill greedy that you took a bad shot.....
Seriously killshooter IS a good solution to friendly fire greifing... is it the best one? Maybe not... but its definatly more then good enough....
Spend the development time on something else...
Tex
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Hi, my name is Hubsonfire,
I like to flame pointlessly:
"The only problem is that you're too ****ing stupid to read and comprehend what's been said about 9,000 times."
"Don't shoot greens! How much ****ing plainer do you need it to be?"
"you're lying in an attempt to bolster your position"
etc...etc... Blah... blahh... blahhhh...
But if anyone offends my fragile ego back I'll be very very upset!!!!! In fact I'll lie and say they said things they never did!! take that !! shazaam!
" Considering you say you have only 1 death to KS in 4 years, I'd say it isn't much of a problem, despite your whining to the contrary. Your demand that I post film of something not happening a vast majority of the time is kind of pointless. "
Sure, no one demanded I post anything but it sounds good! Can't find any hint of him whining but dang! thats sounds good too!
I cleaned it up for you. I could go on and on but it's decidedly pointless. Next time read what I actually wrote and have some basic respect if you want any back. Otherwise its just another ride on the Internet BBS shortbus.
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Don't shoot the greens. Woo. Woo.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
So, unless you've got a better solution that addresses the problems HT has mentioned as the basis for the current setup, or if you're just going to keep flaming away, talking about how you're holding my feet to the fire by displaying your ignorance, just shut the **** up already.
Read this part again.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
So, unless you've got a better solution that addresses the problems HT has mentioned as the basis for the current setup, or if you're just going to keep flaming away, talking about how you're holding my feet to the fire by displaying your ignorance, just shut the **** up already.
:aok
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Read this part again.
I wasted my time reading it the first time. Let me rephrase it for you to get closer to your real meaning.
"You don't agree with me so just shut the **** up already."
How about taking your own advice or must you have the last word?
My suggestion gives the benefit of the doubt to the KS'er which would reduce these threads by 80 % or more. To me, thats a better solution. You don't agree. I don't care.
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Best solution imo would be to make friendly fire have no effect on the shooter or the shootee. Bullets dont pass through friendlies, they just dont do any damage. AirWarrior did that during the time I played it. You could still PNG by bombing friendly acks or by bombin friendlies on the runway though.
No damage to either party and these threads go away completely.
One time I was chasing an enemy plane in an FW-190A-8 with the 4 cannon loadout. There was one other plane in the area, a friendly about 3 - 4k above me. I kept checking on the friendly as I slowly pulled into guns range on the enemy. Just as I got into guns range I checked the friendly real quick (still safe on his perch and no sign of him moving towards my target), I adjust my aim just a bit and fire a burst at the enemy and missed, adjusted again and fired another burst. Just as I fire the second time I see the friendly at the top of my screen diving in, I let off the trigger and he flies through my bullet stream. Now I'm in the tower.
I was in no way at fault in that situation. I did everything reasonable to make sure I wasnt shooting at friendlies. The friendly never called out that he was in on my target either, yet I was the one punished for his stupidity.
Each and every one of us, no matter how good our SA is, drops our SA to one degree or another as we concentrate on taking our shot. That's why I dont buy the *you had bad SA* argument.
Engaging in effective situational awareness means knowing the locations and intentions of enemies as well as friends.
You can never know with certainty what the players around you are going to do, best guess maybe......we are dealing with human beings here and unless we are pyshic and can read other peoples minds we can never really know what that other person is going to do. The unpredictable nature of human opponents, that is the reason why I play games online. :)
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Originally posted by Elfie
Best solution imo would be to make friendly fire have no effect on the shooter or the shootee. Bullets dont pass through friendlies, they just dont do any damage. AirWarrior did that during the time I played it. You could still PNG by bombing friendly acks or by bombin friendlies on the runway though.
[/b]
The fundamental problem with this approach is that it encourages "shooting over the shoulder" of planes in front of you because you have no fear of shooting him (or yourself with killshooter) down. This leads to tactics that do not mesh with reality -- did real pilots in situations like that shoot over over a friendly plane in front of them in order to steal kills? Not without great threat to the plane in front and severe punishment to the pilot doing it upon landing.
Killshooter as currently enabled punishes historically dangerous behavior. If you do away with killshooter, you'll replace threads like this with threads about kill stealers instead. At least in this case you really do not have anybody but yourself to blame.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
The fundamental problem with this approach is that it encourages "shooting over the shoulder" of planes in front of you because you have no fear of shooting him (or yourself with killshooter) down. This leads to tactics that do not mesh with reality -- did real pilots in situations like that shoot over over a friendly plane in front of them in order to steal kills? Not without great threat to the plane in front and severe punishment to the pilot doing it upon landing.
Killshooter as currently enabled punishes historically dangerous behavior. If you do away with killshooter, you'll replace threads like this with threads about kill stealers instead. At least in this case you really do not have anybody but yourself to blame.
-- Todd/Leviathn
He's smart, don't argue with him.
:D
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The fundamental problem with this approach is that it encourages "shooting over the shoulder"
That already happens all the time. I see that happen every time I play.
This leads to tactics that do not mesh with reality -- did real pilots in situations like that shoot over over a friendly plane in front of them in order to steal kills?
Nothing real about Aces High, Aces High is a game.....not reality :)
If you do away with killshooter, you'll replace threads like this with threads about kill stealers instead.
Dont we already have those on occasion? :)
At least in this case you really do not have anybody but yourself to blame.
In the scenario I described above, I dont consider the shooter to be at fault. There is only so much you can reasonably do to avoid kill shooter. Sometimes due to the unpredictable nature of human players you will end up shooting a team mate. You can never predict with certainty what others will do in any given situation. The best you can do is make reasonable assumptions about their intentions.
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Originally posted by Elfie
In the scenario I described above, I dont consider the shooter to be at fault. There is only so much you can reasonably do to avoid kill shooter. Sometimes due to the unpredictable nature of human players you will end up shooting a team mate. You can never predict with certainty what others will do in any given situation. The best you can do is make reasonable assumptions about their intentions.
I think this statement is very true. and in fact can be a problem in real life during real wars. we all hear stories of friendly fire, and is usually not intentional.
i am in the camp though, that believes anytime you pull the trigger at hit something, whether it be a plane or a toolshed, something should happen. cause and effect. if you should a bad guy, he dies. if you shoot a country man, whether intentional or not, who should be penalized?
i think k/s is as good as it could be. are there instances when it doesn't seem fair...maybe. if it wasn't on could the situation be abused....yes.
i say aim, fire...and may the cards fall where they lie. Vast
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Skipped alot of previous posts...
I never had a problem with PNG or KS. Once you know it's there it's up to you to avoid it.
I almost always fight in furballs with friendlys everywhere. I've only KSd myself couple times in last year or more.
Adapt and quit whining or go play Chutes and Ladders.
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i am in the camp though, that believes anytime you pull the trigger at hit something, whether it be a plane or a toolshed, something should happen. cause and effect
If everyone in the game not only made sure to not kill shoot themselves AND the others around them, I would agree with that. Unfortunately in AH as in RL there are those that dont care about the others around them and are only interested in themselves.
Why should I care if I fly in front of a teammate that is firing on an enemy? There are no consequences for that action. Well....not for me anyways....
if you shoot a country man, whether intentional or not, who should be penalized?
For reasons I already stated, I say no one. It is *just* a game after all :)
i say aim, fire...and may the cards fall where they lie.
Besides watching for folks that might be coming past you, or diving in, thats about all you can do isnt it? :D
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only problem with it is you are trying to kill someone 600 of a friendlys 6, they are manuevering and 1, just 1 shot flys way off the mark and hits the friendly and your tail falls off. 1 or 2 accidental hits should not do anything.
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Leave it on and learn to let go of the trigger once in a while
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could someone post for my reference, the proper way to post an idea or suggestion without it being concidered a "whine".
obviously sayin "i had an idea" or "what if" is not the answer.
oh well ill just go with it.
howcome everytime im flyin in my nik an start shootin enmy planes from 3K out, theres always 5 friendly planes flyin infront of me and they dont get outta the way when i start shootin. And after I hurt my plane off of friendlies an run out of bullets from holdin the trigger down for 45secs, I should be able to pick up power ups to fix my plane an give me homing missiles. after im done playin chutes an ladders i like to play ah, but request power ups be put into the game. yup
p.s. I CANNOT FIND THE PAUSE BUTTON
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Originally posted by bagrat
could someone post for my reference, the proper way to post an idea or suggestion without it being concidered a "whine".
obviously sayin "i had an idea" or "what if" is not the answer.
I thought ya did just fine :)
learn to let go of the trigger once in a while
That implies that it is ALWAYS the shooters fault.
That's no different than saying that in all car accidents the driver of the vehicle that struck another vehicle is ALWAYS at fault. Many times the driver of the vehicle that is struck is to blame.
I almost hit a car that was in the left hand turn lane when the driver decided he no longer wanted to turn left and pulled back out into traffic to keep going straight w/o bothering to use a turn signal. I *almost* hit that guy. If I had......then maybe I shoulda learned to let off the accelerator once in a while? :)
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in all car accidents the driver of the vehicle that struck another vehicle is ALWAYS at fault. Many times the driver of the vehicle that is struck is to blame.
an some people sadly take advantage of this, heard stories of jerks who pull infront of commercial vehicles, an slam on the breaks in hopes of the driver hitting there tail. As dumb as trying to get hit by a tractor trailor sounds, people do it.
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an some people sadly take advantage of this,
Yep, just like they do in the game.
There are NO consequences if I fly in front of a friendly that is firing his guns. Well, not for me anyways. There is for the poor slob that I just flew in front of.
IRL flying in front of a friendly that is firing, or about to, is just as reckless and endangering as shooting over a friendlies shoulder. Assuming you survive, there would be consequences for either action when you landed.
While kill shooter does stop the griefers from killing every plane with a green tag on it, it does nothing to stop those who recklessly fly in front of their team mates guns.
Ordinance no longer kill shooters those who drop bombs/fire rockets simply because to many folks ignored bomber pilots pleas to clear the town when they dropped their loads on it.
The same thing could be done with bullets, it would solve both problems. No one could go around whacking their team mates at will, and those who recklessly and with no regard for others fly in front of thier team mates wouldnt be kill shootering others.
Is it perfect? No, but niether is kill shooter.
*edit* oops, hit the submit button before I was done heh.
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Many of you are making the case that KS only happens when some "other tard" swoops in front of you when you're firing, and is therefore to blame. You're mostly ignoring the scenario of many vs few when the many are firing wildly. Negating the KS effect does nothing to remove a plane from the fight, even though friendlies may be firing without regard for each other. Hitech has mentioned this in almost every KS thread, and everytime a change is requested/suggested/discussed, those supporting a change ignore it.
Removing KS wouldn't solve any problems; it would simply be refusing to acknowledge them.
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Here's an idea:
If someone needs to be punished, then punish them BOTH.
The guy doing the shooting dies because he either failed with his SA, or got overly greedy and fired with a friendly in the way when he didn't have a clear shot.
The guy who's HIT dies because he either failed with HIS SA and drifted too close to the line of fire of a friendly (which I admit I've done on occaison) or got too greedy and decided he was going to try to steal the kill by diving in front of a friendly lining up for a shot.
So both pilots involved die. Yeah, the guy who wasn't really at fault will still be punished, but this way you can't say that the guilty party got off free.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Many of you are making the case that KS only happens when some "other tard" swoops in front of you when you're firing, and is therefore to blame. You're mostly ignoring the scenario of many vs few when the many are firing wildly. Negating the KS effect does nothing to remove a plane from the fight, even though friendlies may be firing without regard for each other. Hitech has mentioned this in almost every KS thread, and everytime a change is requested/suggested/discussed, those supporting a change ignore it.
Removing KS wouldn't solve any problems; it would simply be refusing to acknowledge them.
The only times I have KS'd myself (disregarding my first couple days :D) were when I fired over the shoulder of a friendly thinking I still had a clear shot, and one time I was trying to clear a friendly buff form, missed the enemy and hit the friendly buff instead heh. I accept the blame in those cases.
My main point is that it isnt ALWAYS the shooter's fault as many here are saying. It is my responsibility to make sure I dont shoot green planes. It is also my responsibility to make sure I dont fly my plane through another players bullet stream.
In AirWarrior with friendly fire off I didnt see the many firing wildly w/o regard for who was where. Sure people took what would be risky shots if friendly fire was on sometimes. Sometimes you had 4 or 5 people all firing at one target, but those things were the exception rather than the rule in my experience.
If someone HAS to die in a kill shooter situation, then why doesnt ordinance cause kill shooter anymore? If planes HAVE to be removed from the fight......then ordinance should still cause kill shooter. The guy dropping the bombs, firing the rockets should die since it's his sole responsibility to make sure his toolshed is clear before releasing. Right? But it isnt that way anymore. If kill shooter can change for ordinance, it can change for bullets as well :)
Sax, not sure your idea would work either. Griefers could still frag team mates. Sure they would die as well, but what griefer would care? heh
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Lev cut in front of me twice tonite and shot guys down. I fired at him anyway and missed.
Can I have my money back? :)
LOL who the heck cares about this stuff! It's a game!
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As much as I HATE killshooter I know good and well that it isn't going to change. All of the alternative suggestions are just as viable to one degree or another. Unfortunately fellas this (like the B-29 P-39 threads) brings out all of the Kool-Aid Drinkers on this BBS. ( For those of you too young to know what the term refers to, read this) Jim Jones, Guyana (http://www.answers.com/topic/jim-jones?method=22)
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I have played this game for awhile and it has been my experience that KS is not the big deal that many people seem to think it is. I have only really KS'ed myself in two situations. The first is when I am screwing around with my squaddies or am bored. The second is when someone flies through my bullets when I am firing on a target. This happens so infrequently that its a non-issue with me.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Removing KS wouldn't solve any problems; it would simply be refusing to acknowledge them.
Most are not suggesting that K/S be removed. Only that it could be replaced by a better solution. It’s your opinion that there isn’t a better solution. Others are of the opinion that there is a better solution.
Just because your opinion happens to coincide with the current solution doesn’t necessarily make it the best solution. It just automatically aligns your opinion with the current solution. Which in turn means that you need not make your case for it has already been made.
PS. Got this from a good source. Put yer money on "HT's Pride"
running this Saturday at the track.
Its a sure thing. ;)
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Most are not suggesting that K/S be removed. Only that it could be replaced by a better solution. It’s your opinion that there isn’t a better solution. Others are of the opinion that there is a better solution.
Very few things are designed so well that they cant be improved upon. :)
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The only case for a change in KS that anyone has made is that the change would prevent them from doing damage to themselves when they shoot friendly aircraft.
While you may think this to be a good idea, I happen to support the concept of not shooting them in the first place. To me, not doing something stupid is a better solution than recoading the game.
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Originally posted by Mathman
I have played this game for awhile and it has been my experience that KS is not the big deal that many people seem to think it is. I have only really KS'ed myself in two situations. The first is when I am screwing around with my squaddies or am bored. The second is when someone flies through my bullets when I am firing on a target. This happens so infrequently that its a non-issue with me.
Whoa !!! ... out of the depths ... emerges MATHMAN !!!
Good to see ya on back the boards ... have you jumped back into the MA lately ?
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The only case for a change in KS that anyone has made is that the change would prevent them from doing damage to themselves when they shoot friendly aircraft.
The case I'm making is for those times when it's someone else flying like an idiot. I've also said that the responsibility for kill shooter goes both ways, it doesnt just apply to me firing my guns, it also applies to me NOT flying through another players bullet stream.
I happen to support the concept of not shooting them in the first place.
I think you are preaching to the choir on that one. I havent seen anyone advocating killing friendlies :)
To me, not doing something stupid is a better solution than recoading the game.
It's already been done for ordinance :) I guess thats another case I've been making heh
I firmly believe that we need something in place to stop griefers. Griefers suck 3 week old dog turds. The system we have now punishes those griefers by killing them. It also sometimes punishes those that have made every reasonable attempt to avoid kill shooter but due to another players carelessness they get kill shootered anyways.
Other than turning off friendly fire, I'm not sure what other solution would not only stop the griefers but also not penalize players for the stupidity and carelessness of others.
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Ordnance was very easy to abuse. Bail over the enemy field, or near the nme GVs/strat/city. Wait for friendlies. Friendlies drop ordnance, die, no icon for the silkchimp on the ground, no way to let off the trigger, no way for friendly to figure out what's killing them.
While I don't know if this is why HT changed it, I know this was done. If KS was this easy to manipulate and grief others, I'd support a change. Since it's not, the change made for ordnance isn't a good rationale for negating/removing/replacing KS. The simple fact of the matter is that only you can decide when and where you will shoot. If you shoot a friendly, you are to blame. While they may be displaying poor SA in not recognizing that you're about to fire, you're displaying worse SA by firing.
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Originally posted by Elfie
That implies that it is ALWAYS the shooters fault.
Thats because the very vast majority of the time.....
It is.
Mind your SA both friendly and enemy and fire in bursts instead of shooting half your ammoload at each pull of the trigger and several things will happen.
You will get killshooter alot less. because you will know not to pull the trigger again when someone pops in front of you.
And because your only firing in bursts the likelyhood of you killing yourself because of it drops
You will have anough ammo to shoot at more then one plane before having to RTB.
Out of necessity your aim will get better.
How many years I been around here now? 3,4? I forget.
By following those simple rules I can count on one hand and probably have a couple fingers left over how many killshooters I've gotten.
and I get people dropping and popping up in front of me all the time
But I see people killshoot themslves all the time. Either by firing over the shoulder or not paying attention to their surroundings and holding the trigger down in long bursts when another plane drops in.
Do killshooters happen sometimes in spite of these precautions? yes..sometimes.
But the number of the ones you get can be drasticaly reduced with some simple self dicipline and awareness
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Thats because the very vast majority of the time.....
It is.
Mind your SA both friendly and enemy and fire in bursts instead of shooting half your ammoload at each pull of the trigger and several things will happen.
You will get killshooter alot less. because you will know not to pull the trigger again when someone pops in front of you.
And because your only firing in bursts the likelyhood of you killing yourself because of it drops
You will have anough ammo to shoot at more then one plane before having to RTB.
Out of necessity your aim will get better.
How many years I been around here now? 3,4? I forget.
By following those simple rules I can count on one hand and probably have a couple fingers left over how many killshooters I've gotten.
and I get people dropping and popping up in front of me all the time
But I see people killshoot themslves all the time. Either by firing over the shoulder or not paying attention to their surroundings and holding the trigger down in long bursts when another plane drops in.
Do killshooters happen sometimes in spite of these precautions? yes..sometimes.
But the number of the ones you get can be drasticaly reduced with some simple self dicipline and awareness
I do all those things already :)
If you shoot a friendly, you are to blame. While they may be displaying poor SA in not recognizing that you're about to fire, you're displaying worse SA by firing.
If the shooter does everything reasonable to avoid KS, and someone flys in front of him carelessly, then he is to blame for reasons I have already stated.
I agree that is was easier to abuse the ordinance issue, but that doesnt make the arguement less valid. KS can be abused as well. If something can be abused, it will be. People are just that way :)
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Originally posted by Elfie
KS can be abused as well. If something can be abused, it will be. People are just that way :)
Abusing killsooter almost impossible. You never know exactly what happen in somebody's other FE because of internet lag. If you fly through his bullet stream in your FE it dont means you do same in his FE. That simple fact make abusing almost impossible. It valid if you actually do not want fly through his bullets also.
Only shooter know where and when he shoot.
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"Very few things are designed so well that they cant be improved upon."
In this case the solution (current killshooter) is very simple and effective. IMO any extra effort to make it more complicated to suit whines of a few would be idiotic. Kind of like HTC wasting manhours designing and creating a PBY for players to use in the MA for making "rescues" - although at least that would be an actual addition of something extra to the game.
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Actually PBY would also be useful for other things. In addition to long-range scouts for PAC theater scenarios (what *I* want them for) they were about the only thing in the war heavier than a JABO fighter that were commonly used for dive-bombing. If HTC would shut off bomb release in heavy bombers beyond a specified (configurable) number of degrees from level, and have a PBY, then at least we could have realisitic dive-bombings of fleets :)
culero
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Originally posted by Elfie
Very few things are designed so well that they cant be improved upon. :)
Applying damage to the specific area hit on the friendly plane to the specific area on your own plane rather than applying all damage to the fuselage was an improvement. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by culero
...snip...
If HTC would shut off bomb release in heavy bombers beyond a specified (configurable) number of degrees from level, and have a PBY, then at least we could have realisitic dive-bombings of fleets :)
culero
pretty please, HTC.....
(See sig line) :)
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HT's response to the divebombing question was kinda weird. Basically, he said there are plenty of gamey parts of the game so why change this one.
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PBY for scouting and rescue ops in "TOD/CT" and scenarios? Sure!
(That's outside the context of "wasted efforts" for MA gamer/gameplay use.)
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Originally posted by Oleg
Abusing killsooter almost impossible. You never know exactly what happen in somebody's other FE because of internet lag. If you fly through his bullet stream in your FE it dont means you do same in his FE. That simple fact make abusing almost impossible. It valid if you actually do not want fly through his bullets also.
Only shooter know where and when he shoot.
It's not all that hard to KS someone else really. I have done that intentionally to people who shoot up flaming wrecks. Just have to time it right.:D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Applying damage to the specific area hit on the friendly plane to the specific area on your own plane rather than applying all damage to the fuselage was an improvement. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
I agree :)
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In the AvA, we are currently running with KillShooter off with highly productive results. Yes, you can shoot down a fellow mate and be a n00b. But this is something we're striving for - realism.
During the bomber missions, the gunners had to be extra careful not to shoot down friendlies during heavy combat. There were actual friendly fire incidents were a bomber while shooting at a Luftwaffe fighter accidentally shot another bomber up or an escort. It definately improved the immersion factor IMHO.
In the MA however, dweebery abounds mostly with newbies. Personally, instead of killshooter, if you down a friendly, you should have to waitout a set time... i.e. be penalized from flying for half an hour or twenty minutes...etc.
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I agree with ya Fork, i think it will be similare to the way Combat Tour is played, any fool who would pleasure himself with killing friendlies would stay in MA and wouldnt be even remotely interested with fitting into a historical frame work. Since gaining rank and doing productive things for a mission will be a part of CT, im sure friendly kills, or even pings could be taken into account when it comes to a promotion or demotion. Friendly pings did happen in real life, heck intense dogfights probably happened that the victor pilot only learned about what he did apon returning to base, thinking, patience, and communication should be rewarded!
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One account from Aces Against Japan is I think a P-40 pilot who, spotting a formation of twin-engine bombers and thinking it was a group of G4Ms, (I think there weren't any bombers expected in the area) went into a head-on pass and fired on the lead plane. He pulled up, looked back and saw the split tail, and was like, "Oh CHIT! G4Ms don't have a double tail!"
When he got back to base and was later winding down in the officer's club, a B-25 pilot was in there drinking complaining about the damn P-40 pilot who shot the throttle quadrant out of his hand.
:D
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:aok