Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: BFOOT1 on June 25, 2017, 07:11:35 PM
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http://ahevents.net/index.php/fso-current-next-event
Information can be found here folks. We will be representing the German summer offensive of 1942.
Frames will run July 7, 14, & 21.
Go ahead and start updating those preferences :salute
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So, I have a few comments. I'm looking at this academically and based on past game experiences, and please don't take it as an attack on whomever set the event up but sometimes you gotta call things out in a polite way to see changes in the future.
That... uh... doesn't look like a very balanced setup, IMO. The Boston and the Tu-2 (a 1944 plane, by the way) have a top speed that matches a 109F to mid alts. Meanwhile the Tu-2 is nearly 2x as fast as the He-111, and about 100 mph faster than the Ju88. And it has 20mm cannons and can dogfight when needed.
The min-max fighters on the axis side are significantly outperformed by the min-max fighters on the allied side. The no-max fighters are the only area that is close, with a slight edge to axis at high alts only.
And, finally, as a Bf109 fan I have to note: The Bf109E-4 is noted to be placed in to replace the Bf109E-4/b and E-7/b, which were common during this time. However, the main point of these planes during this campaign was second-tier units running jabo attacks. They were not tip of the spear and were not your front line fighters. Why is this a problem? Our Bf109E-4 doesn't have a bomb rack, last I recall. They made it a pure fighter only.
Again, not trying to pick a fight. Trying to start a conversation about some things that need to be considered.
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So, I have a few comments. I'm looking at this academically and based on past game experiences, and please don't take it as an attack on whomever set the event up but sometimes you gotta call things out in a polite way to see changes in the future.
That... uh... doesn't look like a very balanced setup, IMO. The Boston and the Tu-2 (a 1944 plane, by the way) have a top speed that matches a 109F to mid alts. Meanwhile the Tu-2 is nearly 2x as fast as the He-111, and about 100 mph faster than the Ju88. And it has 20mm cannons and can dogfight when needed.
The min-max fighters on the axis side are significantly outperformed by the min-max fighters on the allied side. The no-max fighters are the only area that is close, with a slight edge to axis at high alts only.
And, finally, as a Bf109 fan I have to note: The Bf109E-4 is noted to be placed in to replace the Bf109E-4/b and E-7/b, which were common during this time. However, the main point of these planes during this campaign was second-tier units running jabo attacks. They were not tip of the spear and were not your front line fighters. Why is this a problem? Our Bf109E-4 doesn't have a bomb rack, last I recall. They made it a pure fighter only.
Again, not trying to pick a fight. Trying to start a conversation about some things that need to be considered.
+1 I noticed some of these aswell reading through the event page last night.glad someone brought it up
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Is the 110C correct for the timeline?
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Is the 110C correct for the timeline?
Not really, but we don't have an appropriate version. Closest you can get, I suppose.
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So, I have a few comments. I'm looking at this academically and based on past game experiences, and please don't take it as an attack on whomever set the event up but sometimes you gotta call things out in a polite way to see changes in the future.
That... uh... doesn't look like a very balanced setup, IMO. The Boston and the Tu-2 (a 1944 plane, by the way) have a top speed that matches a 109F to mid alts. Meanwhile the Tu-2 is nearly 2x as fast as the He-111, and about 100 mph faster than the Ju88. And it has 20mm cannons and can dogfight when needed.
The min-max fighters on the axis side are significantly outperformed by the min-max fighters on the allied side. The no-max fighters are the only area that is close, with a slight edge to axis at high alts only.
And, finally, as a Bf109 fan I have to note: The Bf109E-4 is noted to be placed in to replace the Bf109E-4/b and E-7/b, which were common during this time. However, the main point of these planes during this campaign was second-tier units running jabo attacks. They were not tip of the spear and were not your front line fighters. Why is this a problem? Our Bf109E-4 doesn't have a bomb rack, last I recall. They made it a pure fighter only.
Again, not trying to pick a fight. Trying to start a conversation about some things that need to be considered.
:aok
I think more consideration and calculations need to be done. Good points and a great attitude by Krusty!
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Regarding the 109E, The Romanian air force was equipped with the Emil at this time and operated in the area of this event. Also there were some dedicated Jabo units in the Luftwaffe that still utilized the 109E.
The AH 109E can carry a single 250Kg bomb, but not a droptank.
Also, it provides a lesser opponent for the P-39's and P-40's that they can compete against better.
I would keep the 109E in the design as is.
As for the Tu-2, I completely agree with Krusty. It does not fit the time frame at all, nor does it fall into a balance where it could be a reasonable substitute for another type. It needs to go.
Seems the Soviets were operation the first batches of Lend-Lease B-25C's during the summer of 1942. So this plane better balances against the He111.
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I agree with the Tu-2's being overpowered but the B-25C's are far too neutered defensively. Give the Allies something in line with the HE's or 88's defensive firepower of a swap is made.
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The He-111 is every bit the deathtrap the B-25C is. They compliment each other nicely, especially if you make both take the bomb loads that come close to 2000lbs.
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I would still take the HE in a used plane lot over the B-25C, but ya, they both suck to fly. But that still would leave the Allies with not one but two neutered bombers in the B-25C and the Boston. Not a good idea. Some thing better than the B-25C but maybe not as nasty as the TU-2 is in order if there was a swap in my opinion.
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The question is what can we fit historically that would match the Ju's and HE's? I'm all for the community's input and making them better events so please keep giving input.
The only other bird we have available for use for the time frame anyhow is the B-26, but that wasn't used by the Russians. I'll check with the CM Team and see what I can replace the Tu-2 with. We have till roughly Saturday to discuss and balance something out fellas.
Fighter wise I truly feel okay about the mins and max's at the moment. Depending on what gets discussed here, there could be some changes. If there are any issues with the allied and axis fighters during Frame one, changes will be made for the rest of the event, as well as the write up.
Thanks for the comments, and let's continue to keep this civil folks :salute
:cheers:
If you have any personal questions or private comments you guys can contact me via pm
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The question is what can we fit historically that would match the Ju's and HE's? I'm all for the community's input and making them better events so please keep giving input.
The only other bird we have available for use for the time frame anyhow is the B-26, but that wasn't used by the Russians. I'll check with the CM Team and see what I can replace the Tu-2 with. We have till roughly Saturday to discuss and balance something out fellas.
Fighter wise I truly feel okay about the mins and max's at the moment. Depending on what gets discussed here, there could be some changes. If there are any issues with the allied and axis fighters during Frame one, changes will be made for the rest of the event, as well as the write up.
Thanks for the comments, and let's continue to keep this civil folks :salute
:cheers:
If you have any personal questions or private comments you guys can contact me via pm
Bostons and B-25C's are both historically accurate in this theater and period, as well as well balanced with Ju-88's and He-111's. The Boston is already much faster than either German bomber and it also has a reasonable dogfighting capability as a single ship. I honestly recommend making formations mandatory for all bombers. The only advantage the Axis has is in bomb loads and the 20mm defensive guns on the 111, but those can be balanced out easily.
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Bostons and B-25C's are both historically accurate in this theater and period, as well as well balanced with Ju-88's and He-111's. The Boston is already much faster than either German bomber and it also has a reasonable dogfighting capability as a single ship. I honestly recommend making formations mandatory for all bombers. The only advantage the Axis has is in bomb loads and the 20mm defensive guns on the 111, but those can be balanced out easily.
That's what I was thinking as well. All four mentioned above are cannon fodder period, at least when I fly them anyhow.
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The P39s are going to get 1 shot at the 88s and they will never catch up. Same for the 109Es and the Bostons I guess.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The P39s are going to get 1 shot at the 88s and they will never catch up. Same for the 109Es and the Bostons I guess.
P-39's top speed at 12K is closer to the 109F at that altitude than any other fighter in the setup. From there the P-39 slows and the 109F gains even more speed.
The speed of the 109E and P-40E is very similar across all alts.
But the P-39 and P-40 have a great advantages in diving.
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The question is what can we fit historically that would match the Ju's and HE's? I'm all for the community's input and making them better events so please keep giving input.
The only other bird we have available for use for the time frame anyhow is the B-26, but that wasn't used by the Russians. I'll check with the CM Team and see what I can replace the Tu-2 with. We have till roughly Saturday to discuss and balance something out fellas.
Fighter wise I truly feel okay about the mins and max's at the moment. Depending on what gets discussed here, there could be some changes. If there are any issues with the allied and axis fighters during Frame one, changes will be made for the rest of the event, as well as the write up.
Thanks for the comments, and let's continue to keep this civil folks :salute
:cheers:
If you have any personal questions or private comments you guys can contact me via pm
Totally civil. :aok My concern is my guys will not commit to a side until the write up is firmed up. We vote each month based on the write-up and if it is going to change I like to pass that information along.
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Totally civil. :aok My concern is my guys will not commit to a side until the write up is firmed up. We vote each month based on the write-up and if it is going to change I like to pass that information along.
Waystin, I believe we could probably have all of this ironed out by tomorrow. :salute
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to be OT I agree about the TU2 being too late war and causing unbalance.
But also wanted to say it's great to see everyone working together so well to make this fun and balanced for all of us.
:salute so nice to see. :rock
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Waystin, I believe we could probably have all of this ironed out by tomorrow. :salute
Coolio. :aok
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Waystin, I believe we could probably have all of this ironed out by tomorrow. :salute
Thank you BFOOT for hearing our concerns and taking them into consideration! I know your job is not easy and it takes a mature designer to be willing to reconsider aspects of a plan.
:salute
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Alright folks since I wasn't the original author I don't know if I can change the write up rules, but they will be sent out in the objectives so far the following changes are:
Tu-2 replaced with B-25 C
Bomber formations are mandatory
Alt Cap changed from 30K to 22k (this represent more of the fighting at lower altitudes on the Eastern Front)
Edit: I'll have to check the bomb load for the B-25 and see if anything needs to be elimated, just like the Bosntons, He's and Ju's.
Owlblink, thank you sir. I'm trying to make my events more balanced, and by bringing in community input I feel that will help balance things out by hearing other perspectives!
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Blech. I'll say no more.
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Blech. I'll say no more.
Waystin if you have something to say sir just tell me or message me. I'm trying here. But with the time frame and the planes we have its not as easy to balance it out. If you have any possible ideas and suggestions let me know. I've contemplated a few that I'm going to ask my team about and see what we can change. :salute
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Waystin if you have something to say sir just tell me or message me. I'm trying here. But with the time frame and the planes we have its not as easy to balance it out. If you have any possible ideas and suggestions let me know. I've contemplated a few that I'm going to ask my team about and see what we can change. :salute
As a large squad we are guaranteed to see bombers for one frame. Heck in May we got bombers for two frames in a row. So what types of attack craft are available on each side and knowing up front are very important to us.
So B-25C's are blech as I told Devil above. They are a horribly neutered bomber very slow with little defensive fire. I would say doubling up the Bostons would be a better way to go. At least their speed offsets the lack of defensive fire. My .02 cents. Your response and consideration is appreciated.
:salute
Way
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As a large squad we are guaranteed to see bombers for one frame. Heck in May we got bombers for two frames in a row. So what types of attack craft are available on each side and knowing up front are very important to us.
So B-25C's are blech as I told Devil above. They are a horribly neutered bomber very slow with little defensive fire. I would say doubling up the Bostons would be a better way to go. At least their speed offsets the lack of defensive fire. My .02 cents. Your response and consideration is appreciated.
:salute
Way
Waystin, I'll talk to the team and see what we can do sir :salute
Any other ideas or suggestions just post them here.
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As a large squad we are guaranteed to see bombers for one frame. Heck in May we got bombers for two frames in a row. So what types of attack craft are available on each side and knowing up front are very important to us.
So B-25C's are blech as I told Devil above. They are a horribly neutered bomber very slow with little defensive fire. I would say doubling up the Bostons would be a better way to go. At least their speed offsets the lack of defensive fire. My .02 cents. Your response and consideration is appreciated.
:salute
Way
Have you ever flown the HE-111? It's slow by many standards and has horrible defences in most aspects. No tailgun, a dead six attack on one leaves it with little to no hope at defending itself. Enemy needs to be higher or lower than dead six or off to the side.
I feel like your concerns over the B-25 are being completely ignorant of the tools the axis have to work with on a regular basis. Giving allies more bostons and sticking axis with slower bombers doesn't sound much like an even chance at a win.
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Have you ever flown the HE-111? It's slow by many standards and has horrible defences in most aspects. No tailgun, a dead six attack on one leaves it with little to no hope at defending itself. Enemy needs to be higher or lower than dead six or off to the side.
I feel like your concerns over the B-25 are being completely ignorant of the tools the axis have to work with on a regular basis. Giving allies more bostons and sticking axis with slower bombers doesn't sound much like an even chance at a win.
Bear in mind that the Pigs are not an Axis or a Allied loyal squadron, just discussing merits. And yes I still would rather be stuck in an HE111 than a B-25C. I promise you this. :aok
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Owl, I understand what you are saying but I also understand what Waystin is saying too. The B25 has no way of defending itself from a ever so low dead 6. I'd rather fly a He111 or a B25 also!!! :salute :cheers:
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Owl, I understand what you are saying but I also understand what Waystin is saying too. The B25 has no way of defending itself from a ever so low dead 6. I'd rather fly a He111 or a B25 also!!! :salute :cheers:
I don't know which I would rather die in, but the Jolly Rogers were in B-25Cs last frame and we were at the mercy of the 109s that intercepted us as we were headed to A128: it was a slaughter. However, we had no fighter cover, not even a fighter sweep ahead of us. That could make a difference no matter which bomber you fly.
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I don't know which I would rather die in, but the Jolly Rogers were in B-25Cs last frame and we were at the mercy of the 109s that intercepted us as we were headed to A128: it was a slaughter. However, we had no fighter cover, not even a fighter sweep ahead of us. That could make a difference no matter which bomber you fly.
Yes, that was my squad that found the Jolly Rogers.
In frame 2, we had Ju88's and suffered a similar fate at the hands of a half-dozen spits and P-38's. We were toast in a minute. Thankfully we had just dropped our eggs when they found us.
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Yes, that was my squad that found the Jolly Rogers.
In frame 2, we had Ju88's and suffered a similar fate at the hands of a half-dozen spits and P-38's. We were toast in a minute. Thankfully we had just dropped our eggs when they found us.
You guy's killed me so quick I was only on my 2nd beer. :cheers:
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You guy's killed me so quick I was only on my 2nd beer. :cheers:
That's why I start drinking about two hours before :D.
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Air Raiders updated....Don't care what setup is like :noid :salute
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Yes, that was my squad that found the Jolly Rogers.
In frame 2, we had Ju88's and suffered a similar fate at the hands of a half-dozen spits and P-38's. We were toast in a minute. Thankfully we had just dropped our eggs when they found us.
:rock
We did loose a couple during the B25 engagement :noid
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Waystin, just for a little helpful perspective: The He-111H has 7mm guns except for the forward gondola that only angles down (for ground attack, anti-shipping, etc), and will be useless in almost all cases against attacking fighters. They're not even as good as the twin-guns on the Ju88 which fire faster individually than the single guns on the He-111H.
Generally, though, it's much better to be in a faster very tough B-25C (I soaked up TONs of shots in mine during Krupp Steel and used speed and sneakiness to get home safe). The He-111H is powered with the BOB-era modeling. Just for speed comparison:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=91&p2=126&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
I know it's kind of hard to recall some performance charts vs other planes at times so I like to put up an image like that. It gives people a quick perspective and perhaps reminds them of some things. Like for Branch37 and his comment about the P-39s not catching Ju88s:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=93&p2=30&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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NM
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Pigs have been updated.
:salute
Waystin2
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I flew Boston's a couple FSO's ago and I gotta say... They suck! But this is FSO, sometimes you get the hot plane, sometimes you stuck dreaming of the hot plane.
To quote "The Right Stuff".
"1) Whatta you two rookies gonna have?
Rookies? Now hold on ,sis! You are lookin' at a whole new ballgame, here, now. In fact, a couple more years, I bet you're gonna immortalize us by puttin' our pictures up on that wall! What? I say somethin' wrong here, or...?
1) I tell you what, we got two catagories of pilots around here. You got your prime pilots, that get all the hot planes; and you got your pudknockers, who DREAM of gettin' the hot planes. Now, what are you two PUDKNOCKERS gonna have?
2) Scotch?"
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Write up has been updated :salute
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The AH 109E can carry a single 250Kg bomb, but not a droptank.
I just noticed this. Quick question: Can we confirm that? Last I recall the bomb was removed ages ago and it's been "slick" ever since. The Wiki doesn't list it as an option.
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Bfoot,
I just want to let you know that the rule making bomber formations mandatory was not changed in the objectives. This may cause confusion to this week's CiC's.
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Bfoot,
I just want to let you know that the rule making bomber formations mandatory was not changed in the objectives. This may cause confusion to this week's CiC's.
Email sent to all squads sir, thank you :salute