General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Spikes on April 14, 2020, 07:53:01 PM
Title: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Spikes on April 14, 2020, 07:53:01 PM
As a low numbers guy, can we please have the side switch time be lowered to 3 hours? It is a shame that I switched after lunch to help the low #s after a map reset, but now at night time I'm stuck on the high side when I'd rather help the low #s side again. :(
:salute
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on April 14, 2020, 07:54:18 PM
:pray
Please, please, please. +1
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on April 14, 2020, 08:12:13 PM
It is a bit long for the times we are a living....
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: hazmatt on April 14, 2020, 08:24:13 PM
I agree. I do like to be able to switch to the low numbers side but it sux when the numbers go up and you're stuck there.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on April 14, 2020, 08:57:07 PM
I can dig it. I can dig it now. I'm flexible. :D
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Devil 505 on April 14, 2020, 08:59:19 PM
+1
:aok
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: 100Coogn on April 15, 2020, 11:30:29 AM
See rule #4
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on April 15, 2020, 11:37:31 AM
K
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: 100Coogn on April 15, 2020, 11:40:05 AM
... I would suggest a 30 minute limit and call it good.....
+1
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Pluto on April 15, 2020, 01:47:48 PM
Yes please
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: LCADolby on April 15, 2020, 02:01:00 PM
There does seem to be a rotation as different time zones peak and trough. However, side loyal/permanent players are going to be rather irked by reducing the timer. :uhoh
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: 100Coogn on April 15, 2020, 02:18:10 PM
There does seem to be a rotation as different time zones peak and trough. However, side loyal/permanent players are going to be rather irked by reducing the timer. :uhoh
There were many players irked when the time was increased.
Coogan
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on April 15, 2020, 02:19:25 PM
The shorter the better. But, we take baby steps back to 1 hour...compromise.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Ramesis on April 15, 2020, 03:53:12 PM
As a low numbers guy, can we please have the side switch time be lowered to 3 hours? It is a shame that I switched after lunch to help the low #s after a map reset, but now at night time I'm stuck on the high side when I'd rather help the low #s side again. :(
:salute
-1 :salute
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: SmokinLoon on April 15, 2020, 03:56:24 PM
See rule #4
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Chris79 on April 15, 2020, 10:49:47 PM
+1
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: puller on April 16, 2020, 03:38:53 PM
+1
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on April 16, 2020, 07:05:25 PM
+1. I'm pretty sure I recall after they consolidated the arenas into 1, we had a period of around a month where the switch time was 1 hour because of an oversight. I recall neither brimstone falling from the sky, nor the rivers running red as blood.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CAV on April 16, 2020, 08:04:27 PM
As I recall..... 24 hrs worked very well in Air Warrior. (and if was you in a Sqdn, you wasn't able to move at all) I was a B-lander for well over 10 years, and what we call low numbers was a good night in AW for many years.
CAV
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: guncrasher on April 16, 2020, 08:21:07 PM
+1. I'm pretty sure I recall after they consolidated the arenas into 1, we had a period of around a month where the switch time was 1 hour because of an oversight. I recall neither brimstone falling from the sky, nor the rivers running red as blood.
Wiley.
it was a couple of years.
semp
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: The Fugitive on April 16, 2020, 08:41:42 PM
For those who want to know the reasoning as to why it is the way it is.
no you wont. then it will be asking for 2 hours, then 1 hour, then 5 minutes.
semp
You're right. But for now, let's go with less than 6!
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: waystin2 on April 17, 2020, 04:01:08 PM
:aok
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: bustr on April 17, 2020, 08:40:41 PM
Didn't Hitech once mention he would watch things to determine if 3 hours would be possible?
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on April 17, 2020, 09:41:10 PM
Here is a practical example:
Log on at 11 AM, around 50 players online: 19 Knights, 11 Bishops, 20 Rooks. I switch to Bishops to help numbers and fly for about an hour or so. At 3 PM, I log in again and see that the Knights are now the lowest side. But, I cannot switch until 5 PM. Once I switch at 5 PM, everything is fine until the late crew shows up at 8-9 which shuffles the numbers yet again. I cannot switch again until 11 PM and it is doubtful that I would switch then because it is bedtime.
If the switch time 3 hours, this would not be a problem.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Spikes on April 18, 2020, 10:31:46 PM
Switched to the low number Knights at 10:30 when the numbers were about 60-45-60, now at 11:30 the Knights are no longer low numbers and we're stuck here for 5 hours. Woo!
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: 100Coogn on April 18, 2020, 10:39:12 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/IXKLNJt.jpg)
Coogan
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on April 19, 2020, 01:07:18 AM
Switched to the low number Knights at 10:30 when the numbers were about 60-45-60, now at 11:30 the Knights are no longer low numbers and we're stuck here for 5 hours. Woo!
And there were very little fights for us. One in particular was okay, but then bombers sank the boat and gg.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: FESS67 on April 19, 2020, 02:10:18 AM
Hey Hitech, ^^^ this is the sort of conversation that has gone on for a number of years now. Side imbalance, no fights, hoard or be hoarded. Perhaps, just maybe, the conditions that existed when you implemented various rules, conditions and game mechanics do not fit the current conditions. The lack of decent combat adventure is what finally drove me away, and others I know have cited it as a contributor. I think it may be time to revisit some of the things currently in place and consider if they now help or hinder.
We know this is not without precedence as you have reinstated a text message spam from years ago so we know you are willing to reinstate prior conditions. What confuses me is that change was greeted with almost universal derision yet you persevered with it. Perhaps time to reconsider some of the other mechanics?
Hey Shuffler, before you dive in, take a shot then run away, I may not be currently playing the game but the exact conditions that these guys are complaining about was a factor in me not playing. Changing sides to chase the fight only to have it move or disappear on me left me with 2 options. Do something which bored me, like jabo, buff or GV against undefended towns (and let's admit it, with no fight eventuating from these actions it is simply stat padding) or leave. Guess which option many of us took!
ohhhhhh, I know, if you jabo, buff and GV for long enough the defenders will come I hear you cry. Well, sorry, they do not come in the form of fighters. They come in the form of manned guns and GVs. Woooohooooo the more I 'provoke' the enemy the more it promotes the very behaviour that makes me want to leave.
I have highlighted the fact this is a personal post about my preferences and my reasons for checking in on the game but not flying. This is done in the hope that responders will not try to convince me that bombing undefended towns or strats is of any use at all other than to increase stats and make people look good to their boyfriends. :noid
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on April 20, 2020, 07:23:02 AM
Hey fess.... I am still here in game.... I did not run away.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: FESS67 on April 21, 2020, 03:24:00 AM
Hey fess.... I am still here in game.... I did not run away.
You must be the only one huh? My experience towards the end was:
95% fighters hit and run
99% of GVs hide. This IMO is an issue, no matter how hard you look they are invisible.
I believe there is a free arena we could meet up and swap spit for a while if that is your thing but, again my experience is, most players were willing to mouth off but never front up. Again we expose one of the micro reasons the 'fighters' left. The 'pickers' would pick, crow about how good they were but when challenged would never front up. Which camp do you fall into?
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on April 21, 2020, 09:04:47 AM
Of all the threads since I've been here about changing the side switch timer, this one looks like it will be the one that succeeds!
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: SlipKnt on April 21, 2020, 12:19:19 PM
+1 for a switch to 3 hours...
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: TWCAxew on May 07, 2020, 03:27:14 AM
no you wont. then it will be asking for 2 hours, then 1 hour, then 5 minutes.
semp
Who cares.
This is the situation. Now I am scared of switching sides. It ruined nights for me before. Thinking hey I wanna help out the bish and the next moment they out number the rooks and the Knights by 30. And yet again I am flying aimlessly inside the horde. Squadies reaching out to me "Dutch we are Knits this week!!". It's giving me real Aces High PTSD.
1 hour timers are to short, but 6 is very excessive. I can't think of another modern game that does this.
Edit: I have another example. So I switch sides to one of the other countries because according to the darbar there is a good fight going on. Only to realize I have chosen the wrong side to fly on because this team is completely overwhelming the other team.
I am not angry, just a bit frustrated because I think this could be easily avoided.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on May 07, 2020, 12:01:56 PM
Yet another example:
This happened last night. I log in when about 140 players are on. I have two squaddies on Knights, one of which switched 2 hour prior. So, with no hesitation I switch to Knights. Now, 2 of us are stuck here for 4 and 6 hours. We have a good sortie or two, then the fights die. The Rooks and Bish are going at it, leaving Knights with no one to shoot at. Three hours would not have completely solved this problem, however, I may have hesitated switching immediately because my squadmate could switch in an hour.
Please reduce side switch timer. It is difficult to justify at such low numbers and such high percentage swings in the MA.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: 100Coogn on May 07, 2020, 12:49:56 PM
Switching sides now is just a punishment. I don't know why this is set in stone. 1 hour is plenty enough time. (still overkill)
Coogan
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 07, 2020, 01:32:13 PM
This is the situation. Now I am scared of switching sides. It ruined nights for me before. Thinking hey I wanna help out the bish and the next moment they out number the rooks and the Knights by 30. And yet again I am flying aimlessly inside the horde. Squadies reaching out to me "Dutch we are Knits this week!!". It's giving me real Aces High PTSD.
1 hour timers are to short, but 6 is very excessive. I can't think of another modern game that does this.
Edit: I have another example. So I switch sides to one of the other countries because according to the darbar there is a good fight going on. Only to realize I have chosen the wrong side to fly on because this team is completely overwhelming the other team.
I am not angry, just a bit frustrated because I think this could be easily avoided.
I had made a wish last year to make the enemy dars two different colors to be able to determine who was winning the fights. Sometimes you can tell by flashing bases, but that's about it.
Sometimes switching to the low #s side is a bad idea because they are either winning their fight or there is no fight at all. (BowlMA) is a great example.
Maps like BowlMA are the worst during low hours. Far flights for very little action.
I pretty much agree with Fess for the most part. There are a lot of fighter jocks who have left because air combat has been degraded with long travel times to fights, too spread out of maps that scatter players all over, and easy mode planes that are hard to kill and get 3000 more kills and a better K/D than the average plane. Flying to a base to Jabo does get old when it takes 7-10 minutes twittling your thumbs to get to the base only to die on the first pass from an ack gun manned or not.
There is no way that anyone could cheat any differently with a 3 hour time switch compared to 6. I have been stuck on the boring side many times and have to log due to boredom.
The majority of people who try AH really want fighter action and when it goes stale they log off when they cannot find the action. I find only long time players and super new guys are interested in Jaboing by themselves.
I think a 3 hour switch time would increase the ability to find fights, which would increase the playability of the game for more people, keeping them logged in, rather than logging off.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: 100Coogn on May 07, 2020, 01:47:09 PM
I had made a wish last year to make the enemy dars two different colors to be able to determine who was winning the fights. Sometimes you can tell by flashing bases, but that's about it.
Sometimes switching to the low #s side is a bad idea because they are either winning their fight or there is no fight at all. (BowlMA) is a great example.
Maps like BowlMA are the worst during low hours. Far flights for very little action.
I pretty much agree with Fess for the most part. There are a lot of fighter jocks who have left because air combat has been degraded with long travel times to fights, too spread out of maps that scatter players all over, and easy mode planes that are hard to kill and get 3000 more kills and a better K/D than the average plane. Flying to a base to Jabo does get old when it takes 7-10 minutes twittling your thumbs to get to the base only to die on the first pass from an ack gun manned or not.
There is no way that anyone could cheat any differently with a 3 hour time switch compared to 6. I have been stuck on the boring side many times and have to log due to boredom.
The majority of people who try AH really want fighter action and when it goes stale they log off when they cannot find the action. I find only long time players and super new guys are interested in Jaboing by themselves.
I think a 3 hour switch time would increase the ability to find fights, which would increase the playability of the game for more people, keeping them logged in, rather than logging off.
If you're going to stick around for 3 hours waiting for side change, you might as well stay for 12. Most people will log off by then anyways.
Coogan
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Spikes on May 07, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
If you're going to stick around for 3 hours waiting for side change, you might as well stay for 12. Most people will log off by then anyways.
Coogan
Yeah...I tend to log off and do something else, if I happen to think about it again I'll log back in and check.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: turt21 on May 07, 2020, 04:38:09 PM
3 hrs is too long. I sw from rook to knit for trevors MA strat run only to find for whatever reason the boys arent there. Well I just shutdown because Im not waiting to switch back for 3 hrs. So I have a game that Im paying for that I cant use the way Ive been doing for years.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on May 07, 2020, 04:40:28 PM
Even if you check back in and there is a fight, it may only last 30 minutes and the numbers (100) can drop to 70 in that time making your side either 25 ENY (and you can't switch) or there is nothing to do except blow up buildings and take undefended fields. At either of those two points, I am logging off to play something else even though I want to furball in the MA.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Debrody on May 07, 2020, 04:52:35 PM
In EU timezone, if youre stuck on the high numbers side, there is literally nothing to shoot at. And with numbers like 15-25-12, things change way more often that 6 hours.
Wrote this down in another thread some days ago, what ever. Hitech, i know im just an EU luftweenie, but i guess you need customers more than ever, and the EU crew is nearly all gone. It might have a reason. Just saying.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on May 27, 2020, 06:35:04 PM
The six hour timer worked much better than twelve when there were more people on. With such low numbers, fights come and go in an instant. If a few players log on or off, the numbers change drastically. Let's critique the timer from a different perspective.
ENY, as we know, is a side balancing mechanic that gets a bad wrap. I am not here to defend or attack ENY, but to use its status as a baseline for side switching. ENY kicks in above about 36% of the population. In the MA, as I am typing this, the Rooks have 28 of 74 total pilots and an ENY of 1.8. A Bishop logged off and the ENY went to 3.7 and another Bishop logged making it 6.2. Then, a few seconds after that a Rook logged on and the ENY went up to 8.1 and now the Knights have ENY of 1.1. In a matter of 75 seconds, we went from Rooks having 28 of 74 to the Rooks having 29 of 73 yet ENY went from 1.7 to 8.1. The numbers at this point were 18-26-29.
Why am I telling you this? The point of ENY is to balance the arena. One way is to limit the aircraft that you fly so that a side may not have the most people and still fly LA's and Spit 16's. Another option available to us to balance the arena is to switch sides. If I wanted to join the lowest side right now and avoid the ENY of Rooks, I would go to the Bishops. But, the Rooks only outnumber the Bishops by 10. That number can and will be reduced in a matter of hours when the night crew and prime time kicks in. But guess what? I am stuck here on Bishops until 1:30 AM. So, if at 10 PM ET the low side is not my side and the Bishops have an ENY I can do nothing to help except log off. We want to keep people logged in.
Six hours works if there are 200 people online because small fluctuations are not detrimental to arena balance. I am not advocating for or against ENY, just saying that as it currently exists, one of the two options that ENY affords us is not actually an option. It is my opinion that ENY is in place to force us to fly weaker aircraft or convince us to switch sides. Once I have switched once, I may not switch for 6 hours, yet the low side and ENY may fluctuate 10 times in that amount of time. Perhaps changing the time is not the best answer. Maybe we should allow folks to switch to the low side at any time if the side they are on has an ENY active? In the case of the Rooks currently, if you are a Rook with an ENY of 8, you may switch to Bishops who are lowest. This would be a free switch that does not begin the timer. So when Bishops are no longer low side or have no fight a few hours from now, you may switch and that begins the timer.
I think a 3 hour side switch time is justified in today's MA (or the idea aforementioned). Consider the low population and how the ENY is easily and drastically effected by it. A shorter switch timer would alleviate this problem and it would allow ENY to work a little better and as intended. People are apprehensive about switching because of the commitment. If we had a free switch to the low side or a shorter timer, I think the country balance would improve instead of degrade.
Can we have a test of this in June? A whole month of 3 hour switch timer? Collect some data and see if the ENY machine was higher lower than in previous months. Thank you for considering, hitech.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: TWCAxew on May 29, 2020, 10:05:35 AM
EU day time :noid
Notice the bish need to take 2 more bases and are rolling a fun map. The bish are ignoring the knits since they dont need them anymore. I want to help out the rooks to keep there bases cuz i like the fight and want to keep the good map in. I wont switch cuz i cant fly with my friends later 2day.
Was half the folks on one team posting on the BBS instead of fighting?
:D
:rofl
What is the contention here? That if the side switch timer were lower, the bish would've evened the sides out so they wouldn't get win ze war perks? I am... skeptical.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on May 29, 2020, 11:20:44 AM
I agree that it should be shorter..... but it seems to have grown roots where it is at now.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: TWCAxew on May 29, 2020, 11:31:04 AM
What is the contention here? That if the side switch timer were lower, the bish would've evened the sides out so they wouldn't get win ze war perks? I am... skeptical.
Wiley.
The point is that you get punished for switching sides and if you dont you better off logging.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: 800nate800 on May 29, 2020, 11:37:06 AM
Yes some are funny that way. Still others will change sides to help make play better. Any changing is a step in the right direction.
Based on what? It was accidentally left on 1 hour for a long time a few years ago. Side switching behavior at that time was not noticeably different from now. Interestingly enough, the sun also did not turn black as sack cloth nor did the rivers run red as blood.
I'd love to see how many people switch sides to the low side on a regular basis. I'd bet there are more people posting in this thread than would do it.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: LCADolby on May 29, 2020, 01:11:27 PM
Based on what? It was accidentally left on 1 hour for a long time a few years ago. Side switching behavior at that time was not noticeably different from now. Interestingly enough, the sun also did not turn black as sack cloth nor did the rivers run red as blood.
I'd love to see how many people switch sides to the low side on a regular basis. I'd bet there are more people posting in this thread than would do it.
Wiley.
When our squad was at strength, we used to switch often. In fact we might have squad on all three sides.
Do not change much anymore as knights are usually the low number anyway. I also do not fly much these days.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: TWCAxew on May 29, 2020, 02:01:41 PM
Based on what? It was accidentally left on 1 hour for a long time a few years ago. Side switching behavior at that time was not noticeably different from now. Interestingly enough, the sun also did not turn black as sack cloth nor did the rivers run red as blood.
I'd love to see how many people switch sides to the low side on a regular basis. I'd bet there are more people posting in this thread than would do it.
Wiley.
Okay maybe your right, who knows.
However, what downside would it have to change it? it would help me out extremely and others that want this.
Ask yourself in what way it would affect you.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on May 29, 2020, 03:11:03 PM
However, what downside would it have to change it? it would help me out extremely and others that want this.
Ask yourself in what way it would affect you.
It wouldn't directly but off the top of my head:
-Even more Spiez paranoia. -Depending what they changed it to and how it was implemented, likely as not more actual spying. I really don't care because my gameplay rarely involves stealth. -3 hours is still longer than the typical play session unless it's a weekend or your day off, so the effect it would have on most peoples' typical play sessions would be negligible. The main reason I don't switch is because I don't want to be separated from my squad if they happen to pop on, and that's likely over a 3 hour period. When it was 1 hour, I can remember several occasions where a squaddie popped on and I was only stuck on the other side for minutes instead of 2 hours and change. I liked that. -According to HT, a shorter time makes the imbalances swing wider and worse. He's likely got access to a bit more information than we forum dwellers. I don't agree with his conclusions because you can watch the numbers swing on a weekend day a lot faster than over 6 hours. I've seen each country have ENY over a 6 hour period. But, that's his standpoint.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: bustr on May 29, 2020, 06:00:37 PM
Accidentally left on 1 hour meant the majority of the community was operating with it by believing it was a 12 hour timer. At that time POTW all thought it had always been 12 hours and surprised by Hitech's announcement.
Hitech's argument has to do with rapid population oscillations from his experience destabilizing the MA. And from AvA experience eventually you end up top heavy on the good ride side. Or if the same rides are available to both sides, you still get one side top heavy avoiding loosing unless someone forces population control. It's more fun to punish a few guys while safe in a group in combat games. I run into that aspect of human nature in games outside of AH. And they use some form of group behavior modification from delay timers to resurrect, delay timers to spawn into new fight locations, and population delay queues to spawn into arenas when the arena is at maximum population. And I read the same kinds of complaints as this POST's thread by people who have no clue AH exists.
What is the MA average peak time population these days? Are we up around 150-170? The peak time window is what, maybe two hours before the players on one side log off tired of the current alt\run\gun 6vs1 play style.
If it is two hours, a 3 hour side switch or a 6 hour side switch is only useful to squads on squad night who want to avoid ENY and not having their late war favorite rides. POTW does this now for each squad night.
The MA max population window being as short as it is these days, 1 hour will accomplish what? CV's are no longer real strategic assets in need of secrecy. If anything they are a bright moment for many if they are visible because of the fights. Busted NOE missions? What missions? Armored assaults on towns being busted? Now we have GVDAR so 1 hour is not as good as "At Will" side jumping for killing a hidden GV. Just run 30sec of film and log out. Giving away bomber missions? Now days they advertise so a big fight can happen.
In 1 hour how many sorties can you up as a fighter pilot to get at a hot fight a sector away? Keep in mind the peak window during prime time is at best 2 hours. With 6 hours everyone who is loosing and disgruntled can mass jump to another side to take part in slaughtering the 3 guys left behind defending something. Now though you are stuck until the next day. Why does that not happen since the beginning of AH3? I've watched the Rooks log off to the point bish\knights were ENY screwed. I've never seen them mass jump to the other countries.
So if you leave out the oscillations Hitech is worried about and see 3hrs as no different than 6hrs faced with a 2hr max population fun window. What damage can those who want to abuse 1hr accomplish? All jump to the high number side to join into a beat down on their old country with ENY fired up? Even with outrageous numbers to throw at a field in ENY 30-40 planes. Three 262 made POTW log for the night because there was no way to compete and we had 5hrs left on our jump timer. An hour after we jumped to balance ENY, half the population of the country that flew the 3 - 262 logged off for the night and our ENY limited us to truly suicidal rides flying against 262. It was on one of my maps with bases that had no spawns to them. The 262 grounded all of our c47's so eventually many logged off for the night.
So 1hr may no longer be a problem since we don't have 400 in the MA during the peak window. ENY works really well against numbers.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: LCADolby on May 29, 2020, 08:42:43 PM
I read "loosing" and quickly lost the thread of this tapestry of intrigue. ^ :uhoh
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on May 30, 2020, 03:18:55 PM
Likely an accidental double tap of a key that goes unnoticed because 'loosing' is the wrong word spelled right. (I've learned to overlook over time because, well, time is too short and I can't afford to be petty.) :old:
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: 100Coogn on May 30, 2020, 03:30:00 PM
The way its set up is great, minus the cornhole ai buffs pulling 3g's with turrets blaring.
Minus the 6 planes that come to gang you with unrealistic flight models including ww1 planes that ride your 6 the entire time almost impossible to shake.
What precisely do you wish that is not provided in the match play?
HiTech
The DA and the fighter bowl should be separate. The fighter bowl should be its own individual map with just a fighter bowl arena. There should only be one side to avoid ganging. Include air spawns to avoid take off vulching.
The match play should be its own arena. Should allow you to pick teams. Also, the AI should only come 1 at a time in the fighter area. The dueling side is fine. But wth no directions, its kind of confusing for a new player. I also dislike that a third player can enter your duel at their own discretion and you can't do anything about it to avoid fighting them.
The whole thing is just too convoluted.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: nrshida on June 01, 2020, 09:19:19 AM
Why not reactivate the fields at the lake for a trial. That is separate from the MPA areas anyway. Maybe it would entice some of the old crowd back. Perfect need not obstruct perfectly good enough.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: hitech on June 01, 2020, 10:25:47 AM
Minus the 6 planes that come to gang you with unrealistic flight models including ww1 planes that ride your 6 the entire time almost impossible to shake.
When was the last time you were in there?
Because the AI are only in p51s, and they do not fly very well. Plus only 2 will ever attack you at one time?
The change was made in February.
HiTech
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 01, 2020, 10:42:46 AM
I like the match setup - a decided improvement over the old DA but the AI isn't anything approaching the fun or engagement of interacting with humans and it's unclear who it is meant to serve. Vets don't tend to stick around long because it's narrow & repetitive and noobs get a fake idea of what the flight model / real ACM is.
Presumably A1, 2 & 3 are just disabled airfields in the arena settings?
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: LCADolby on June 01, 2020, 01:43:53 PM
Vets don't tend to stick around long because it's narrow & repetitive and noobs get a fake idea of what the flight model / real ACM is.
Perhaps you should open a paid account.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: LCADolby on June 01, 2020, 03:40:21 PM
It's difficult to be precise, especially articulating it well. The furball lake, the canyon fights, the fluidity of how we could re-up and take off, swap fields etc. The old DA map and set up had it's charms, and I loved it over the TA for training people. Less rigid, less formal and more relaxed.
Perhaps the old DA could re-open as it's own separate entity. This would allow Matchplay for such players with health issues to have AI, potentially satisfying all parties?
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: nrshida on June 01, 2020, 04:46:55 PM
I assume you simply mean you wish me to turn off the AI? Because I assume most people who play AH are healthy.
Who is being addressed is becoming vague so forgive if I answer unsolicited. For expedience I think you could just leave the AI at PT Corner and the duelling queues as is and simply reopen airfields A1, A2 and A3 as they used to be (with the caveat that the old DA was a paid arena).
It's just a proposition to try it for a trial period. Arguably more interest in ACM & practical training was initiated at the lake than any other location.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on June 02, 2020, 03:09:02 AM
Hmmm more "relaxed" than the training arena?
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on June 02, 2020, 10:00:48 AM
What precisely do you wish that is not provided in the match play?
HiTech
If 3 of my friends and I want to have a classic 4v4 with another group of 4, can we do that? It is my understanding that to fly you have to click the queue "4v4" which would then place you in random teams of 4 in whatever airplane you choose. So we can have Emils v P-51s. It should be able to be customized so that we can set teams and require certain aircraft.
If what I have explained is already a feature, ignore. I just have not figured out how to do it.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on June 02, 2020, 10:04:14 AM
If 3 of my friends and I want to have a classic 4v4 with another group of 4, can we do that? It is my understanding that to fly you have to click the queue "4v4" which would then place you in random teams of 4 in whatever airplane you choose. So we can have Emils v P-51s. It should be able to be customized so that we can set teams and require certain aircraft.
If what I have explained is already a feature, ignore. I just have not figured out how to do it.
Custom arena?
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Spikes on June 02, 2020, 10:12:53 AM
It seems like a lot to go through just to have a few quick fights...especially when there was an arena that pretty much everyone was accustomed to.
What Purdue was describing was not a simple matter in the old setup. Now all things are given such as starting alt, all enter same speed.
All you have to do is choose your country and select the 4x4 queue when 4 of each country have selected the queue you will spawn.
Ive seen people say it was not being used because the AI was to difficult. I lowered the difficulty. I saw people say it wasn't being used because the AI flew bombers and such. I changed it to be configurable which planes the AI fly.
The match play was at the request of players to create a quick action arena.
In this discussion every one forgets that the old dueling arena was not being used when I made the change to match play.
HiTech
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: nrshida on June 02, 2020, 10:30:44 AM
In this discussion every one forgets that the old dueling arena was not being used when I made the change to match play.
HiTech
From the players I had contact with that had more to do with the declining numbers at the end of AH2 and the knowledge that many of those players didn't have equipment at the time up to running AH3. Not the arena itself. It was quite well populated for a very long time.
Match Play is better for some things. A non-scoring playpen is sorely missed I think in the present disposition of AH's arenas.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on June 02, 2020, 10:33:25 AM
Wouldn't it just be a matter of choose map, create arena, invite buddies?
Wiley.
If you wanted to get a little fancier, you could have some custom Staged Missions to combine with your Custom Arena that would allow the Host to populate his friends into the mission slots.
The advantage is that the mission could air-spawn all the players at a designed alt, speed, direction, and plane choice, all at once. And restart again easily when desired. No one but the Host has to do anything. The Host would run the show.
Hmmm in fact as a quick test, if you could find 8 players, you could try it with one of the 4x4 missions/terrains I created. Those are dissimilar aircraft, but others could easily be made to order with all same AC. Also 2v2 or 1v1. No AI need be involved if you fill all slots.
Refer to : https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397942.0.html (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397942.0.html) to see how you would setup and run that.
$0.02.
[edit] Just tried it, but the downside currently is that once you've killed the mission it unloads, you have to reload/populate it again. Now if Hitech just added a "Replay" button instead of "Kill" that would reset everything back to the start with all the same settings and population assignment it would be perfect. ;)
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 02, 2020, 11:13:09 AM
Before you know it there may be no motivation for a paid account, at all. :headscratch:
(Free arenas should never be designed to scratch all itches or cure all b*tches.)
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 02, 2020, 11:29:51 AM
Before you know it there may be no motivation for a paid account, at all. :headscratch:
(Free arenas should never be designed to scratch all itches or cure all b*tches.)
Working out better user experiences and optimizing workflows is a separate question from whether or how much you charge for it. They can be considered independently.
Spikes and Perdue are paying customers, I assume, and also expressed an interest about how to efficiently setup controlled XxX private team duels.
How you might can improve that experience is a valid thing to consider.
Also, the old Furball Lake always seemed to have action back when I saw it and I suspect a lot of those were still paying accounts that just wanted quick mindless action.
Also a valid thing to consider and discuss.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 02, 2020, 11:39:27 AM
Well, noting this timer thread morphed into a dueling thread, Shida comes back to the forums to request free stuff being fixed to his liking from time to time. I got little regard for freeloaders pretending to be interested in 'improvements for the sake of the community.'
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 02, 2020, 11:49:20 AM
Well, noting this timer thread morphed into a dueling thread, Shida comes back to the forums to request free stuff being fixed to his liking from time to time. I got little regard for freeloaders pretending to be interested in 'improvements for the sake of the community.'
I think you are overly obsessed with NRShida. Hitech is perfectly capable of discerning what is in the overall community interest vs what would only serve Shida.
It's been my experience, in creative endeavors, discussions need to be allowed some room to drift a bit. You never know what a little brain-storming might turn up if you allow it a little room to wander.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 02, 2020, 11:50:26 AM
If you wanted to get a little fancier, you could have some custom Staged Missions to combine with your Custom Arena that would allow the Host to populate his friends into the mission slots.
The advantage is that the mission could air-spawn all the players at a designed alt, speed, direction, and plane choice, all at once. And restart again easily when desired. No one but the Host has to do anything. The Host would run the show.
Hmmm in fact as a quick test, if you could find 8 players, you could try it with one of the 4x4 missions/terrains I created. Those are dissimilar aircraft, but others could easily be made to order with all same AC. Also 2v2 or 1v1. No AI need be involved if you fill all slots.
Refer to : https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397942.0.html (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397942.0.html) to see how you would setup and run that.
$0.02.
[edit] Just tried it, but the downside currently is that once you've killed the mission it unloads, you have to reload/populate it again. Now if Hitech just added a "Replay" button instead of "Kill" that would reset everything back to the start with all the same settings and population assignment it would be perfect. ;)
I've often wondered why with all the people who seem to want a quick action arena why someone hasn't set up one with some appropriate airstarts on a map that has an island in the middle and used it to furball/XvX or whatever.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: hitech on June 02, 2020, 03:04:24 PM
I've often wondered why with all the people who seem to want a quick action arena why someone hasn't set up one with some appropriate airstarts on a map that has an island in the middle and used it to furball/XvX or whatever.
Wiley.
Not that arena setup is too difficult, but it does require some work to be able to set something like that up on a whim. Also that person has to be online in order for the arena to be up. Not to mention it isn't on the 'front page' of the arena list so whoever the host is would have to advertise it quite a bit.
I think Match Play is a nice idea, but lacks the 'free for all' aspect that the DA lake brought. I'd be curious to see how a simple DA lake/fighter town map with 3 bases would do. I feel like it would be a bit more relaxed than match play and might give newer players a better opportunity to explore the game and flight model a bit more than 'instanced' fighting.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: hitech on June 02, 2020, 03:49:01 PM
Not that arena setup is too difficult, but it does require some work to be able to set something like that up on a whim. Also that person has to be online in order for the arena to be up. Not to mention it isn't on the 'front page' of the arena list so whoever the host is would have to advertise it quite a bit.
I think Match Play is a nice idea, but lacks the 'free for all' aspect that the DA lake brought. I'd be curious to see how a simple DA lake/fighter town map with 3 bases would do. I feel like it would be a bit more relaxed than match play and might give newer players a better opportunity to explore the game and flight model a bit more than 'instanced' fighting.
Just checking but you do realize there is a free for all area?
HiTech
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: nrshida on June 02, 2020, 04:12:42 PM
There's such a tremendous amount of misassumption / lack of precision in this discussion it's hard to make headway. :rofl
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: LCADolby on June 02, 2020, 04:28:01 PM
In order to be clear;
DA to return as a separate arena that is not free, while keeping the Match-play stays as it is for reasons previously stated.
I'm done here. :salute
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 02, 2020, 04:47:54 PM
The simple the better when it comes to these arenas.
All one team
3k Air spawns over land... lets see that pretty terrain.
3 bases outside the sector to land if you want.
The issue is that it's very hard to recruit players already in the MA to go to a custom arena.
A custom arena would have to be up most of the day, and be properly named: Free For All. For people to start joining.
The map has to be small and easy. Big maps making it harder to locate were the free fight is. A small easy map shows players the only place to fight. Very similar to Axis V Alies MNM. Of course I am not able to play on Monday..
I think a free for all similar to Monday night madness would be cool, though it needs air spawns with one team (in this example.).
Why only one one team? This avoids 3 players not being able to fight each other at the same time. Odd #s create gangs, and not being able to fight someone on your team makes the fights slower. Everyone should be able to fight everyone. That makes the fights much more balanced.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Spikes on June 02, 2020, 04:59:04 PM
Just checking but you do realize there is a free for all area?
HiTech
I see the free for all option. I tried to spawn and it airspawned me to some location on the map with some AI (can't tell location because I can't zoom the map out). I assume the runway directions may spawn you in different locations? I haven't toyed with MP too much but even the free for all area seems to be quite a bit different than the DA lake (even if it was a cess-pool at times).
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: nrshida on June 03, 2020, 02:23:21 AM
Just checking but you do realize there is a free for all area?
HiTech
HiTech, the Free For All (FFE) area presently available isn't anything remotely like the furball lake experientially. Not-the-least-of-which weirdness is that when you mix human and AI together the humans apparently tend to collaborate against the AI.
Referring back to your earlier point about population, at some stage and for a brief period of AH3 you did have the now FFE (it's PT Corner Spikes) air-spawnable with no AI. Spontaneously it was populated, players started a thread extolling its virtues, how fun it was, the quality of the flying and a good-quality YouTube video was immediately published. You know one of those free and independent promotionals which might make prospective players who were probably watching aviation-related videos to think: "Ooooh, I'd be good at that and would like to try it". Numbers and interest was sufficient to suggest that somewhere like that would probably be a populated arena for at least some of the 24-hour cycle. Besides what does it matter if it didn't / doesn't have high numbers, neither does the TA.
Working out better user experiences and optimizing workflows...
Consider the disposition of the online arenas from the perspective of a new and unindoctrinated player. Due to the present architecture - to have human interaction, you're realistically thrown into the late-war MA of old. That's not to say the ACM is of an intimidating high-level, it's rather the nature of arena itself. It's populated by long-experienced players who are highly attuned to risk assessment, usually fly competitive aircraft in competitive ways, often have long-standing squadmates or wingmen who know exactly how to utilise the arena's facilities to minimise their risk and maximise their danger to an extent new players are incapable of doing or knowing. Your ACM has to be very good to fly (initially) alone and not get swarmed endlessly by vets competing with each other to add a kill to their score. Where can prospective players acquire this? The answer is nowhere in AH3.
There's a big gap between staying engaged / interested long enough to find it a survivable challenge to build enough skill to become a steady subscriber.
Certainly the question of free online combat versus paying for a valid service should be addressed. The old DA / Furball lake (with a proportion of population something like 10%/90% split respectively), was a paid arena and I think that's fair enough. The present MPA is a bit schitzo because a good proportion of new / prospective players go there, but they're hardly equipped to duel. They mill around the FFA fighting the AI which is neither representative nor encouraging. There is no help there, official or otherwise. Neither can you put the AI at a fixed level to satisfy both newcomers and experienced players. It is neither fish nor fowl. There is definately a place for the AI you have devised. I'm not sure that is it. Regardless it is for you to strike the business model balance between 'freeloaders' and 'gateway drug' to facilitate players becoming subscribers. None of us have useful data to help in that regard.
A separate ideation thread ought to be made for what an 'ideal' layout might be if you wanted to have that discussion. Some (but not all :)) of Violator's suggestions have merit. We know that because we did some of those experiments already in private arenas. Of course that's all additional work. An economical first and easy experiment would be to either re-enable the fields at A1, A2 and A3 or as Dolby suggests reboot the old DA as it was, obviously announce the change, and see if a community of players could be recultivated who are not overly fixated with MA score and survival at all costs. That's only engaging to those who've already acquired ACM and AH experience.
Well that's my 50 cents and our lockdown is drawing to a close. Must get back to the potentially paying project work... :)
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 03, 2020, 09:33:07 AM
HiTech, the Free For All (FFE) area presently available isn't anything remotely like the furball lake experientially. Not-the-least-of-which weirdness is that when you mix human and AI together the humans apparently tend to collaborate against the AI.
I think there should be a human only Furball Arena.
I think it should be it's own venue for maximum discoverability. (Replace Steal the Sheep?")
I think a Furball arena provides a quick action fix for vets who might only have a few minutes to play, and for noobs, it's an arena that lowers the cost of dying because you can get back into action again quickly. That speeds up the cycle time so a noob can learn faster and doesn't punish them for learning with another 20 min flight back to a fight in the MA.
Could you migrate the forcefield boundary from WO:P?
I agree it should be over gently rolling terrain for depth perception and the added interest of dodging trees.
I understand the concept of all one side, however that can be confusing to people as you've seen from WO:P FFA area. If you did that, I would make the arena config no icons. So they don't hesitate to shoot at a plane because it has a green icon. The fights would be in close enough proximity that you could get away with it and in that context any other plane you saw was by definition an enemy. If no icons, does that mean no name tags also? That would help with ganging and griefing someone. In this configuration, you really only need one base that everyone spawns at for even more simplicity. It simple has several air spawn launch buttons.
Going way out on a limb...one problem, like the MA, I see it quickly devolving into two or 3 used planes that are maximally optimal in that setup. That's OK but gets stale, but what if every hour it switched plane sets available to spawn? You could do this with a running Staged Mission (No AI) that uses the Dot Cmd events to load a rotating set of arena configs or script files at regular intervals that enables alternating sets of aircraft to be available. So I think you already have that capability built. Rotate Early, Mid, Late War on an hourly basis.
$0.02.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on June 03, 2020, 10:55:27 AM
This is why MNM is such a hit. 4K alt limit and a valley to fight in. Kill shooter off with midwar planeset. For folks that just really want to go at it.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 03, 2020, 11:06:09 AM
This is why MNM is such a hit. 4K alt limit and a valley to fight in. Kill shooter off with midwar planeset. For folks that just really want to go at it.
[Edit] Split out Furball Arena discussion to: https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,400266.0.html (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,400266.0.html)
:salute
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on June 03, 2020, 12:19:51 PM
Custom arena is definitely a good way to set up an arena just the way you want. The only problem with custom arenas is getting the word out and getting people to join.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: TWCAxew on June 04, 2020, 07:25:07 AM
Custom arena is definitely a good way to set up an arena just the way you want. The only problem with custom arenas is getting the word out and getting people to join.
Good point. We have the MPA discord server, it went up to 30~40 users and made the MPA server come to life.. https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,398782.20.html
But:
3 Hours Switch Timer!
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: hitech on June 04, 2020, 10:10:48 AM
From the players I had contact with that had more to do with the declining numbers at the end of AH2 and the knowledge that many of those players didn't have equipment at the time up to running AH3. Not the arena itself. It was quite well populated for a very long time.
Match Play is better for some things. A non-scoring playpen is sorely missed I think in the present disposition of AH's arenas.
AH3 Did not create any declining numbers. AH Numbers started shrinking in Feb of 2009. The dueling arena used to be populated but ah3 had no effect on it. When the changes were made to match play, the dueling arena was completely empty. So why would I believe a return to a setup that was always empty not always be empty now?
HiTech
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: nrshida on June 05, 2020, 03:36:03 AM
AH3 Did not create any declining numbers. AH Numbers started shrinking in Feb of 2009. The dueling arena used to be populated but ah3 had no effect on it. When the changes were made to match play, the dueling arena was completely empty. So why would I believe a return to a setup that was always empty not always be empty now?
HiTech
There is of course a considered potential response if indeed this was a question and not a statement. You will naturally understand why one would become wary of taking the time to make valid analytical points to people who have a tendency to integrate any form of critical feedback as personal criticism. Allowances for my Liverpudlian dry, sarcastic sense of humour notwithstanding (which you must be aware of by now).
You can just leave it HiTech. Ride the descending numbers into retirement as the sun sets on the baby-boomer generation. That is the path the game is now undisputedly locked in on. I don't gain that much by pouring in what amounts to professional consultation.
Comfort zones. Bad for your health.
I wish you all the best.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 05, 2020, 10:08:57 AM
'Professional consultation?' :rofl
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: hitech on June 05, 2020, 10:23:04 AM
There is of course a considered potential response if indeed this was a question and not a statement. You will naturally understand why one would become wary of taking the time to make valid analytical points to people who have a tendency to integrate any form of critical feedback as personal criticism. Allowances for my Liverpudlian dry, sarcastic sense of humour notwithstanding (which you must be aware of by now).
You can just leave it HiTech. Ride the descending numbers into retirement as the sun sets on the baby-boomer generation. That is the path the game is now undisputedly locked in on. I don't gain that much by pouring in what amounts to professional consultation.
Comfort zones. Bad for your health.
I wish you all the best.
Do you have answer to my question. Or you again just wish to defame me?
And this
Quote
professional consultation.
Since when was your profession game development?
Your arguing against your self. Your stating AH should change at the same time asking me to go back to what was. I'm asking a real question, why should I expect a different result doing something that was not being used. You have fond memories of the DA, but your memories were long ago when AH was attracting more customers. I really wish I could crack the nut on rapidly increasing AH sales. I know a hell of a lot of things that won't and don't work. Finding one that does is not quite as easy.
And my current thoughts are simply to have AI not launch once X number of people are in the free for all. As always I listen to what people wan't not what they ask for.
HiTech
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 05, 2020, 11:16:52 AM
I really wish I could crack the nut on rapidly increasing AH sales. I know a hell of a lot of things that won't and don't work. Finding one that does is not quite as easy.
First of all: 3 hour Side Switch Timer! (Not that I care, but pro forma for Perdue ;))
Sadly, you have to consider the possibility that no nut exists any longer to be cracked. I'm sure the worlds premier manufacturer of state of the art buggy whips spent the last years of their lives beating their heads on the factory walls thinking "How can we advertise so we can get people interested in horses and carriages again?!??" Breed more Amish.
This may be it. You may be doing as well as this particular market will still support, and there is no significant room for further growth, for this particular style experience. I don't see any competitor of this particular genre doing better or as well. That is a cudo's, but may also be a clue.
You may have already gotten all the juice out of this narrow genre that you are ever going to get. By narrow genre, I mean the 3-sided, online PvP, open sandbox, 90% flight-sim, hi-fidelity WWII combat game. I consider IL-2 and DCS, even WW2Online as different genre; and Warbirds is no longer a near-peer competitor.
You always get mad when people say the following, but in honesty, I believe there is a large amount of truth to it: this game is essentially Air Warrior. It's the finest example of that genre that has ever been produced, or probably ever will be produced. You have added additional twists, and capabilities, and your technical achievement is light years ahead of anything they achieved, but I think most reasonable people could look at it and say, yeah, this is the final evolution of a particular genre started in 1988.
There may be no advertising or marketing trick left that will make much difference. The strategy now may be servicing and managing the declining tail of an impressive product life-cycle curve. That doesn't mean you stop advertising or adding improvements, but it might mean re-framing your expectations so that the whole experience is more satisfying for you.
Every product has a natural life-cycle curve. That is not a failure; it's just life.
$0.02.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: hitech on June 05, 2020, 11:40:28 AM
First of all: 3 hour Side Switch Timer! (Not that I care, but pro forma for Perdue ;))
Sadly, you have to consider the possibility that no nut exists any longer to be cracked. I'm sure the worlds premier manufacturer of state of the art buggy whips spent the last years of their lives beating their heads on the factory walls thinking "How can we advertise so we can get people interested in horses and carriages again?!??" Breed more Amish.
This may be it. You may be doing as well as this particular market will still support, and there is no significant room for further growth, for this particular style experience. I don't see any competitor of this particular genre doing better or as well. That is a cudo's, but may also be a clue.
You may have already gotten all the juice out of this narrow genre that you are ever going to get. By narrow genre, I mean the 3-sided, online PvP, open sandbox, 90% flight-sim, hi-fidelity WWII combat game. I consider IL-2 and DCS, even WW2Online as different genre; and Warbirds is no longer a near-peer competitor.
You always get mad when people say the following, but in honesty, I believe there is a large amount of truth to it: this game is essentially Air Warrior. It's the finest example of that genre that has ever been produced, or probably ever will be produced. You have added additional twists, and capabilities, and your technical achievement is light years ahead of anything they achieved, but I think most reasonable people could look at it and say, yeah, this is the final evolution of a particular genre started in 1988.
There may be no advertising or marketing trick left that will make much difference. The strategy now may be servicing and managing the declining tail of an impressive product life-cycle curve. That doesn't mean you stop advertising or adding improvements, but it might mean re-framing your expectations so that the whole experience is more satisfying for you.
Every product has a natural life-cycle curve. That is not a failure; it's just life.
$0.02.
Your stating all the obvious to me. It my clients who don't seem to consider that may be the case.
And i don't believe I have ever disagreed that AH melee is a flight sim sand box exactly like AW was. But you only looking at one aspect of AH in that statement. Other aspects have gone a completely different way like the coop mission stuff.
HiTech
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 05, 2020, 11:57:20 AM
Marketing special events on the front page with pics and videos of prior events. The front page just has no excitement.
Commercials on Fox would probably get a big boost. (Expensive, I know)
Commercials on YouTube.
Commercials on talk radio.
Other payment types of payment methods if possible. $2 per hour up to 10 hours per month. Something like that.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 05, 2020, 12:08:58 PM
But you only looking at one aspect of AH in that statement. Other aspects have gone a completely different way like the coop mission stuff.
No, I include that in the "Added twists and capabilities.." , etc. Also, Custom Arena, AI Offline Missions, the content editors. A very impressive body of work.
But as you described, those are "aspects", not core game model differences. Those improvements enhance the the core game model experience, which is essentially Air Warrior, IMHO.
Admittedly, like evolution, how many new aspects accumulate before a variety becomes an new species? It's hard to draw a sharp line. IMHO, Aces High is the pinnacle (terminal?) variety in the evolution of that species, but not a different species.
Combat Tour (or Tour of Duty?) was an intriguing, unique concept, but benefited from the glow of never actually seen the full implementation. So it's easy to imagine it might have been cooler than it might have actually turned out.
I think WWIIOnline had massive potential, but they failed to execute. Though, in fairness, maybe that was so ambitious, no one ever could have.
On the other hand, you have all the knowledge and infrastructure you've built. Buggy whip manufactures eventually got rich making wheel wraps for high end sports cars, upholstery for luxury sedans, and wallets and ladies handbags. :cool:
Manufacturing facilities can be retooled for other more profitable products. :D
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 05, 2020, 12:23:56 PM
Marketing special events on the front page with pics and videos of prior events. The front page just has no excitement.
Commercials on Fox would probably get a big boost. (Expensive, I know)
Commercials on YouTube.
Commercials on talk radio.
Other payment types of payment methods if possible. $2 per hour up to 10 hours per month. Something like that.
I'm not saying any of those are a bad idea (well, maybe the advertising on Fox :cool:), I just question if they will make a material difference any more.
I just don't think there is still a vast untapped population of 90% flight-sim oriented players out there who are looking for Online PvP Hi-Fidelity FM combat. I think we have, or have had most of those already. You might find 20 more if you spend to advertise on Fox.
I think our natural market lies somewhere between WT and IL2. WT guys have completely different expectations on graphics, revenue models, game-play pacing and casual modeling. IL2 guys have different expectations on graphics and 80% of them just want something to play offline and don't have much interest in competitive online PvP even if it was available.
I think those two combined are 90% of our potential market, but I don't see them as very accessible. DCS guys are from Mars. I don't think there are vast hidden pools of other flight-sim enthusiasts that aren't already in the WT/IL2 definitions.
Randomly advertising in national media markets to try and find the last untapped dregs is probably not cost effective.
Oh, and 3 hour side switch timer! (Like Cicero appending "And Carthage must be destroyed!" to every speech. ;))
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: LCADolby on June 05, 2020, 12:55:01 PM
I'm not saying any of those are a bad idea (well, maybe the advertising on Fox :cool:), I just question if they will make a material difference any more.
I just don't think there is still a vast untapped population of 90% flight-sim oriented players out there who are looking for Online PvP Hi-Fidelity FM combat. I think we have, or have had most of those already. You might find 20 more if you spend to advertise on Fox.
I think our natural market lies somewhere between WT and IL2. WT guys have completely different expectations on graphics, revenue models, game-play pacing and casual modeling. IL2 guys have different expectations on graphics and 80% of them just want something to play offline and don't have much interest in competitive online PvP even if it was available.
I think those two combined are 90% of our potential market, but I don't see them as very accessible. DCS guys are from Mars. I don't think there are vast hidden pools of other flight-sim enthusiasts that aren't already in the WT/IL2 definitions.
Randomly advertising in national media markets to try and find the last untapped dregs is probably not cost effective.
Oh, and 3 hour side switch timer! (Like Cicero appending "And Carthage must be destroyed!" to every speech. ;))
Could be true, i also know that a lot of people have never even heard of the game.
However, just a brief look at the plane stats last tour, there were 10,000 less deaths in tour 244 than 243. That shows me April was a huge month (beginning of shut down for most) and that many players did not choose to subscribe or did not come back in May. Unfortunately...
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 05, 2020, 02:19:32 PM
Could be true, i also know that a lot of people have never even heard of the game.
So have I. The question is, were they prime targets for this particular genre? I.e. they love WWII flight-sims almost exclusively and have been looking for a online venue to compete PvP for a monthly subscription?
Just some random FPS gamer is not going to be convinced to switch over to something like AH, so it doesn't matter if they've never heard of it.
I've talked to other friends who haven't heard of the game, but they were like:
Them: "So it's just WWII? No jets or helicopters?" Me: "well, the are some WWI planes too, but no one uses those. ;)"
Or
Them: "So it's just airplanes? No infantry?" Me: "well, mostly. There are some tanks and jeeps, and boats, but yeah, it's mostly focused on airplanes. ;)"
Or
Them: "So is there an offline campaign? I don't really want to fight other people online. I just want something to dink with for an hour after work. I'm no ace." Me: "well, there are some offline AI missions for practice, but no real campaign mode. ;)"
Or
Them: "So you have to keep paying? Every month? You can't just buy it? Nah. Wife would never go for that and I wouldn't play enough to make it worth it." Me: "well, there is a two week free trial."
I don't know how Battlefield does it. I bought BF4 in ...2014? $60. I've played tens of thousands of hours on packed servers ever since without spending another dime. And the servers are still packed 6 years later. I guess they just make it on sheer volume and new releases and the percentage of whales that buy every map pack content. But the new maps get rotated to free eventually. I'm patient. ;) Never the less, that is what AH is competing against. Same with IL2. People prefer Free with IAP or flat purchase with occasional content upgrades. There are games with subscription models, but that is a much harder sell definitely.
3 Hour Side Switch Timer!
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on June 05, 2020, 03:00:40 PM
Trips. Nail. Head.
Why did my coffee just turn into blood? ;) :salute
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on June 05, 2020, 03:40:08 PM
We can all go to town meetings and such and ask the question.. Do you fly in Aces High?
GET THE WORD OUT.... start a BUZZ. :cool:
.... they stuck a camera in my face and a microphone, they asked if I had saw what happened at the store. Why yes I did... they came running around the corner and ran right into that car....... brought to you by Aces High! then they took off in that direction... brought to you by Aces High! The police asked me if I could give them good description of the runners, I told them sure... as soon as FSO is over on Aces High!!!!
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 05, 2020, 09:24:46 PM
Trips I hear ya.
I think the real thing is that players today don't really understand air combat, nor have the enthusiasm to learn. Aces High takes a LOT of patience flying to bases. Only having the MA with activity means new players see a gigantic map, and don't have a single clue of where to go. They take off and realize how far the bases are. They die quickly once they get there. Its a tough game. Paying for it every month makes it real tough. Thats what makes it a niche game. Bf4 and all of those quick fight easy setup games put them right in the action instantly for very little cost to time and money.
In my opinion tanking in this game is as real as it gets. You have NO idea where they are on a huge map. Its like being a deer wondering thru the forest only to get intantly splattered. I have no idea how people have fun in tanks. If they want to think they are good at tanking in other games. Let them try AH, LOL. Buttt, these other games have million dollar marketing campaigns with million dollar graphics designers. They put players right into the fight for cheap and for free. Dying over and over again is fine because it puts you quickly back into the fight. Tanking in AH is much more realistic because you have to learn the strategy of how to beat other tankers on a big map defensively and offensively.
Like I said, this game takes a lot of patience and a lot of enthusiasm to learn for the time and money. Most people don't have it.
Part of my reasoning for wanting a quick fight arena where players can fight quickly and learn the game from a small scale.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: bustr on June 07, 2020, 02:57:45 PM
You cannot do an air spawn feature in the MA because we know even with a random spawn area factor, players will determine the circumference and circle the area. This would become worse as a base fight carried on demoralizing customers from using it.
Time to the fight, then towered in seconds, is a real problem to keep today's air combat gamers from other games interested in staying in AH. As Violator pointed out, some of the competition simplified it with time based equal numbers matches in small arenas. Instant action match round start air spawns work at that point.
The MA game style gives three countries the ability to carry out territory domination flag capturing along with individual initiatives of fighter to fighter only air combat. Territory domination has time delay injected into it with distance and capture requirements to make it somewhat fair since this is a game. Air to air combat takes advantage of the territory domination along with the freedom to indulge in personal interests. That becomes a problem due to the design of the MA that injects time into the territory domination aspect of the arena. The air combat players spend more time in transit than enjoying combating each other.
How in the MA do you reduce the time injection for territory domination to speed up air to air combat turn around? The only arena with numbers is the MA and where new people will look first.
About half the time NDisles comes up we get a good turnout in the center island. Thirteen miles between each field while most combat is reached about 6-7 miles away below 10k. If those three fields are not occupied for the evening, the territory domination players capture them and limit the instant action fighter players to the time delay of distance to get at random fights. Old story that has been complained about constantly since the player numbers average in the MA was under 170-200.
One scenario for the MA would be reducing all airfield distances to 10-13miles with a preponderance having the map room on the field. Vbases at the shorter distances between airfields would become more hectic combat wise. At this point 20 fields of all kinds to each country is realistic with the current player numbers. Bombers hitting strats would not be effected since the real combat area would be shrunk inside of about a 5 sector diameter. So upping bombers from a rear base would become attractive due to the smaller area populated by bases.
This would speed up contact times of fighters at least during the more populated times in the MA. Add the vehicle spawn design from FjordMA and tank furballers will have faster turn around like they do when FjordMA is up. I made the spawns closer on FjordMA with the short one out from each base after watching films from all the other tank combat games. Everything was spawn close with fast combat.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on June 07, 2020, 05:21:27 PM
The MA is different and not designed for quick combat.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: hazmatt on June 07, 2020, 06:51:17 PM
Instead of advertising on fox...
My idea is to put up a booth at an airshow and get some kids playing in some sort of dueling arena with an announcer and put it up on big screens outside like E-sports.
Could add some drama to it. Announce that AKAK or Shuffler with over a meeelion hours in the P-38 will take all challengers at once and that anybody who beats him will get a shiny new one month subscript to the greatest Air-sports game in the world!
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 07, 2020, 11:52:26 PM
My idea is to put up a booth at an airshow and get some kids playing in some sort of dueling arena with an announcer and put it up on big screens outside like E-sports.
Could add some drama to it. Announce that AKAK or Shuffler with over a meeelion hours in the P-38 will take all challengers at once and that anybody who beats him will get a shiny new one month subscript to the greatest Air-sports game in the world!
There's a big difference between 3M people seeing it on their couch near the computer than 300 people seeing it at an air show and forgetting about it before they get home.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 08, 2020, 12:36:54 AM
There's a big difference between 3M people seeing it on their couch near the computer than 300 people seeing it at an air show and forgetting about it before they get home.
Yes. Maybe $10,000 a pop difference.
How many times per day do you want to play that ad?
For how many days?
How many $15/month subscriptions (that probably won't renew past 3 months) would you get for that?
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: TWCAxew on June 08, 2020, 07:23:31 AM
Why is this thread evolving into a thread about numbers and advertising. I do understand those are important topics as well. But this thread is about a thing that would help out many players right now.
A 3 hour switch timer (or less).
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2020, 07:25:23 AM
Deja Vu all over again. This discussion has been had before. Running ads is expensive. Booths at airshows less so but still an expense. I made AH tees and gave them away at one airshow. Granted, we had no DTG (direct to garment) product. I was geared up to produce tees, cups, mouse pads, etc. but I wouldn't do it if the skinner community wasn't 100% behind it. No time for that now. :)
(https://i.imgur.com/TMFqYxh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/XVOk5F4.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2my65JD.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/dtQMmTH.png)
It was a fun project. Took up a lot of my time. Don't regret it for a second. :)
Oh, 3 hour switch timer? Why not. ShruG. :aok
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 08, 2020, 09:15:07 AM
Why is this thread evolving into a thread about numbers and advertising. I do understand those are important topics as well. But this thread is about a thing that would help out many players right now.
A 3 hour switch timer (or less).
Is there anything that has still not been said about it?
Fire away.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: hitech on June 08, 2020, 03:25:05 PM
Air show booth is far more expensive per conversion then TV advertising. You just can't get enough people threw a booth. I have also tried wind shield fliers , show magazine adds, and bill boards in front of airshows.
HiTech
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 08, 2020, 03:47:48 PM
Air show booth is far more expensive per conversion then TV advertising. You just can't get enough people threw a booth. I have also tried wind shield fliers , show magazine adds, and bill boards in front of airshows.
HiTech
Have you considered constructing a time machine and taking us all back to 2004?
Maybe you should contact this guy: (https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/022/036/Screen_shot_2009-10-09_at_4.42.45_PM.png)
:noid
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: bustr on June 08, 2020, 05:06:14 PM
The MA is different and not designed for quick combat.
After 18 years and 4 terrains with this game, I think I have a handle on it.
Sooner was the test I worked on over those 4 terrains. The sooner I could make time to combat the more activity took place. So I'll go with the sooner group of customers and what helped them create activity sooner than later.
As for 3 hours, 3 or 6 hours will be the same based on how much time you have to invest to get to fights even with 18 mile base distances. Older terrains from AH2 are mind numbing 25 mile snore fests. If you want a side switch time to impact outcomes for impatient players then 1 hour. I don't think spyz or outing CV locations matters anymore with Hitech's changes to DAR. GVers might as well post on 200 their location these days with GVDAR. Seems even DAR is aimed at the sooner crowd of customers.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2020, 05:17:37 PM
Seems even DAR is aimed at the sooner crowd of customers.
Damned okies. :D
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: bustr on June 08, 2020, 05:43:32 PM
Sooner sounded better than quicker.
If the MA were a PvP game where we stuck a gun in each others face, instant action would be possible. I've noticed in other games where aircraft are not spawned at the same time for a match, the spawns are protected places. But, time to combat is very short.
Sooner will help the MA combat experience since seat of the pants is the ultimate experience in AH. Not wearing out the seat of the pants getting to the fight.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on June 08, 2020, 05:55:50 PM
HT designs the time into the game by rules you have to go by building terrains.
I imagine most folks will not fly straight to a base if they are much closer. I see many now turning away to climb.
Even some in another thread discussing a furball arena want air spawns. Go figure.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: bustr on June 08, 2020, 06:10:37 PM
HT was kindly flexible on 99% of what I did with terrains over the 4 I created. The last one fjordma, 98% of the airfields are 18 miles apart. The goal was sooner, and people liked the sooner. Even the sooner I added in to the GV game along with the drastic lesser amount of trees was liked.
"Sooner" is what the customers liked from my experiments with AH3 terrains. "Later" no longer keeps them in the game like it did around 2006. "Now" there are too many sooner options aside from AH.
Why don't you try your hand at something to see if you can crack this nut? My experiments showed sooner is one key to cracking it. Maybe you can find another to help widen the cracks.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 08, 2020, 06:42:36 PM
To me, it still seems there are basic elements to map design for which I may draw out on paper but lack the time/pc processing power to physically create. (Thankfully, others design along these seemingly obvious paths, already.)
'Sooner' would appeal to furballers that rely on constant return/re-entry to an ongoing fight. Non-perk planes are essentially free and the basic 'tactic' of flinging one's self into the fray and wringing out the plane - rinse/repeat applies in this case.
However, 'sooner' would also appeal to those that want to roll a map during low numbers without all that much opposition. This would appeal to flyers and rollers alike.
'Longer' appeals to strat bombers that want to climb to higher altitudes where fighter interceptors struggle more to set up for effective passes at them. That also lends itself to strat targets being placed well to the rear lines. It also gives players that want to intercept said strat bombers time to climb and meet them. Strategic bombing doesn't have as great an impact on map winning as it appears to have had in real life (even with dropping opposing HQs) and seems as much a matter of individual point collecting/experience as furballing does for furballers - only not as rapid a launch/die/relaunch factor.
Two types of players preferring two elements in maps (in spite of the current numbers populating the arena).
For me, as long as the bases are laid out to promote constant action then it doesn't matter a whit how big the maps is. Unless you are a strat bomber type, that is. Then you may as well make them big and just make sure that the moving fronts on all sides will still provide action.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on June 08, 2020, 07:36:54 PM
HT was kindly flexible on 99% of what I did with terrains over the 4 I created. The last one fjordma, 98% of the airfields are 18 miles apart. The goal was sooner, and people liked the sooner. Even the sooner I added in to the GV game along with the drastic lesser amount of trees was liked.
"Sooner" is what the customers liked from my experiments with AH3 terrains. "Later" no longer keeps them in the game like it did around 2006. "Now" there are too many sooner options aside from AH.
Why don't you try your hand at something to see if you can crack this nut? My experiments showed sooner is one key to cracking it. Maybe you can find another to help widen the cracks.
We do MNM. That is completely cracked if you like quick n dirty.
Main Arena will never be the insta pop that some of the young folks look for in today's games. Here part of the fun is getting there. That is if you have any friends.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on June 09, 2020, 12:05:28 AM
I couldn't play with my friends the other night because of the six hour timer.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Shuffler on June 09, 2020, 02:14:48 AM
Main Arena will never be the insta pop that some of the young folks look for in today's games. Here part of the fun is getting there. That is if you have any friends.
I think you are right, but I wonder if you realize how much that is a core of the problem for HTC.
I think to a large part the Melee has become an old-dude-chat-room. Worse, its a fairly insular old-dude-chat-room composed of mostly the same guys who have known each other for 25 years.
I think a lot of the guys still here have adapted to the conditions like boiling frogs. They launch and put on auto-pilot and yuck it up with their buddies on private squad channel or have a purse fight on chan200. Occasionally they run across a fight and have a little bit of dogfighting, or chasing, die, take off, back on auto-pilot and continue their conversation. That's great fun I bet for some. They have adapted to the realities of the Melee in 2020. If it works for them, awesome. I can tell you it is a way different experience than it was in 2002-2004.
However think of it from a new guys perspective. Assuming they figure out how to get off the runway, (I know..big if, but let's assume BEST case scenario), so they fly around 15 min or so trying to find some action. All around them they just see players on auto-pilot. They are not on their private yuck channels. They are not on chan200 (thank COD), but to them, this just seems like an eternal auto-pilot simulator.
Most of them are probably not retired. The probably have a wife and kids and maybe they get a hour to fly one or two nights a week. If it take 15min from tower to a fight, assuming they don't have to chase someone, they might be lucky to get 4 good fights in their hour (of course as noobs they'll get isntantly slaughtered). Meanwhile their wife is pointing out that game costs more than their Netflix and points out he spends the majority of his time staring a the map on auto-pilot.
I know neither of us have the stats, but I'd be curious how many truly new players, not previous recycled players returning, not retreads from AW, or Warbirds, or WWIIOL who know Hitech, but completely new converts, does AH add per year that keep an account longer than 3 months.
I know there are a lot of factors HTC is having to fight to keep their chin above the tide, but I suspect pacing and cadence of action in the Melee (the primary product) is killing them when trying to earn new business. Even if it still makes a great chat room for the guys who have been here since 1999.
3 hour timer...why not. Anything that increases fluidity in the game is worth trying. It's an arena config. 30 sec to change or change back if it doesn't work well. Give it a try for a week.
$0.02.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 11:33:34 AM
Whoa, Trips .... you may be on to something here. Dale should advertise in the AARP magazine and on TVland, METV and INSP.
"Aces High. If you're not only into classic World War II warbirds and flight sims but into meeting other old farts that like beer and crude jokes while climbing on auto-pilot then this is the game for you. This month's special - 10% off coupon for Preparation H suppositories with account purchase."
I know there are a lot of factors HTC is having to fight to keep their chin above the tide, but I suspect pacing and cadence of action in the Melee (the primary product) is killing them when trying to earn new business. Even if it still makes a great chat room for the guys who have been here since 1999.
As I've said multiple times in the past it's a niche within a niche. It's not a popular style of gameplay, but it's gameplay that's not available anywhere else. Long range bombing/interception for example.
Quote
3 hour timer...why not. Anything that increases fluidity in the game is worth trying. It's an arena config. 30 sec to change or change back if it doesn't work well. Give it a try for a week.
$0.02.
3 hours may as well be 12 for most people. I don't think that many people play for longer than that at a time, particularly the people who want to change for numbers.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 09, 2020, 12:16:20 PM
As I've said multiple times in the past it's a niche within a niche. It's not a popular style of gameplay, but it's gameplay that's not available anywhere else. Long range bombing/interception for example.
A niche within a niche within a niche is fine as long as you can maintain that niche sufficiently to fund new development and hopefully keep growing slightly. And you have to analyze what is the true niche you are serving. Are long boring flights the true product you are selling? Or is that an accidental side-effect of a design decision. Are the ways to minimize the parts that are turning off potential customers while maintain the true core experience. Can you make compromises to satisfy both? Unless you prefer trying login one day and HTC just not being here rather than seeing anything change ever. Buggy whips were a niche.
3 hours may as well be 12 for most people. I don't think that many people play for longer than that at a time, particularly the people who want to change for numbers.
Maybe. It's an arena an variable. Experiment.
In BF you can switch any time you want as long as that switch wouldn't unbalance the teams by x amount. X is server configurable I think. So you can always switch to a lower number team instantly with no limit. Though you can get stuck somewhere if there are no more available slots on the other side. But that seems reasonable. You can see why. If you saw a low side team but couldn't switch just because some arbitrary timer hadn't expired, that would be more annoying.
So maybe count based instead of time based. Now the switching to get points before a win is a different variable if I'm not mistaken. I get that.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: 100Coogn on June 09, 2020, 12:35:47 PM
See rule #4
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on June 09, 2020, 01:49:11 PM
And you have to analyze what is the true niche you are serving. Are long boring flights the true product you are selling? Or is that an accidental side-effect of a design decision.
I'd say a little from column A, a little from column B. I don't know of another game that allows relatively long term strategic bombing and interception patrol like this one.
Quote
Are the ways to minimize the parts that are turning off potential customers while maintain the true core experience. Can you make compromises to satisfy both?
IMO, not beyond a certain point. The tighter base placements on the more recent maps seem to be well received, which cuts down on climbout time.
OTOH, As an example, adding airstarts something like the spawn in for GVs would be horrible gameplay IMO.
Adding other modes to give people the quick fix would seem to me the way to go, but it may as well be a separate game, as it would have nothing to do with the MA.
When you want to drive a buggy and a horse, a gallon of gas isn't going to do you much good.
Quote
Maybe. It's an arena an variable. Experiment.
In BF you can switch any time you want as long as that switch wouldn't unbalance the teams by x amount. X is server configurable I think. So you can always switch to a lower number team instantly with no limit. Though you can get stuck somewhere if there are no more available slots on the other side. But that seems reasonable. You can see why. If you saw a low side team but couldn't switch just because some arbitrary timer hadn't expired, that would be more annoying.
So maybe count based instead of time based. Now the switching to get points before a win is a different variable if I'm not mistaken. I get that.
At the end of the day, Spiez and HT feels fast number swings get worse with a shorter timer.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: 100Coogn on June 09, 2020, 01:53:13 PM
My apologies HiTech, if I may have touched a nerve.
Coogan
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 09, 2020, 02:07:10 PM
When you want to drive a buggy and a horse, a gallon of gas isn't going to do you much good.
When you go to the barn one day to hitch up your carriage for a ride, and your horse is lying dead of the barn floor, your buggy whip won't do you much good either. ;)
We were a nitch back in 2002, but I can tell you the gameplay experience felt very different. You can't dismiss every problem with gameplay as "well....we're a nitch." That seems like lazy thinking to me.
What are the things that can be done? Well.... that's a long complex discussion. :cool:
3 hour side switch timer! Scratch that..... Side switch limit based on team count not clock hands!
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on June 09, 2020, 02:14:59 PM
We were a nitch back in 2002, but I can tell you the gameplay experience felt very different. You can't dismiss every problem with gameplay as "well....we're a nitch." That seems like lazy thinking to me.
Chess is a niche. You don't see people campaigning to add/remove pieces or change the board dimensions and get rid of the old game.
You've got it right, if he's going to do anything he should just freeze AH3 and create a new game with the gameplay pretty much being redone from the ground up.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 02:18:37 PM
Chess is a niche. You don't see people campaigning to add/remove pieces or change the board dimensions and get rid of the old game.
I don't accept your premise. Reductio ad absurdum, are you going to say any change is the same as shutting the game down? If you switch from 6 hour switch timer to 3hr, is that changing the game so you might as well shut it down? If you rotate maps, is that changing the game so you might as well shut it down? When we went from 512x512 maps to 256x256 maps should we have just shut down the game instead? Can absolutely improvements or modifications ever be made to the game again? Think of all the changes to the games we've seen in AH since 1999. Could you say at each change, it's better to shut the game down than change anything? I seemed to remember this community being a lot more open to change in the first decade.
Being a niche doesn't mean you can't every change anything. You should always be constantly changing and exploring and trying to uncover the perfect expression of that niche. Life is constant change. Only dead things don't change.
You've got it right, if he's going to do anything he should just freeze AH3 and create a new game with the gameplay pretty much being redone from the ground up.
I think he should do that: 1. For fun. A new adventure. 2. Financial diversification. Your entire livelihood, retirement, and children's chances at a college education all balanced on the tip of a single point of failure dependent on a population of old geezers with one foot in the bone-yard, is less than ideal. ;) You can diversify with new games, also by bringing in new blood to your current game. Preferably with teeth. Or you can do both an sleep even better! ;)
That doesn't mean you can't every change anything in AH at all. It's just a matter of how you balance resources. And often, resources can server multiple purposes.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 09, 2020, 02:45:02 PM
A game title based on a playing card motif with 3 chess pieces and "countries" is much more logical. :D
There is only one better choice...
Stooges High (https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/e76f2f9/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2048x1423+0+0/resize/840x584!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fbe%2F6c%2Fe20dd8ad9b9661ec07c26891e26c%2Fla-xpm-photo-2012-nov-18-la-et-mn-classic-hollywood-three-stooges-alex-theatre-20121119)
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on June 09, 2020, 02:56:05 PM
I don't accept your premise. Reductio ad absurdum, are you going to say any change is the same as shutting the game down?
What's absurd about that? If you want to play chess, you play chess. If you want to play checkers, you play checkers. If I want to play an FPS, I play an FPS. People aren't hounding Gearbox to add aircraft to the Borderlands series.
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If you switch from 6 hour switch timer to 3hr, is that changing the game so you might as well shut it down? If you rotate maps, is that changing the game so you might as well shut it down? When we went from 512x512 maps to 256x256 maps should we have just shut down the game instead? Can absolutely improvements or modifications ever be made to the game again?
Well, what changes can be made that keep the core gameplay the same while attracting the instant action crowd? How do you keep the large map, best with large numbers, strategic gameplay while catering to the instant action crowd? To me, that's pretty much what it boils down to. People aren't after ongoing battle, they're after short bitesized gameplay. IMO the two are pretty much mutually exclusive.
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Think of all the changes to the games we've seen in AH since 1999. Could you say at each change, it's better to shut the game down than change anything? I seemed to remember this community being a lot more open to change in the first decade.
What in your entire experience with HTC leads you to the conclusion that the community's opinion (particularly the BBS community) materially affects HT's decisions?
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Being a niche doesn't mean you can't every change anything. You should always be constantly changing and exploring and trying to uncover the perfect expression of that niche. Life is constant change. Only dead things don't change.
Yeah yeah, evolve or die. Except stuff doesn't "evolve" during its lifetime. Stuff that can't cut it in whatever conditions it finds itself in dies out, stuff that can handle the current conditions survives.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 03:02:08 PM
How do you keep the large map, best with large numbers, strategic gameplay while catering to the instant action crowd?
Like all maps, large or small, there's a front. The map could be as big as all of Europe but the fight is where 2 sides meet. As long as the map is designed to facilitate sides facing off, it works.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: bustr on June 09, 2020, 03:03:56 PM
We do MNM. That is completely cracked if you like quick n dirty.
Main Arena will never be the insta pop that some of the young folks look for in today's games. Here part of the fun is getting there. That is if you have any friends.
Friends?????, I have a whole squad who on squad night have to pick the low side country because we will constitute half that country. The MA has become exactly what CptTrps has described it.
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I think to a large part the Melee has become an old-dude-chat-room. Worse, its a fairly insular old-dude-chat-room composed of mostly the same guys who have known each other for 25 years.
I think a lot of the guys still here have adapted to the conditions like boiling frogs. They launch and put on auto-pilot and yuck it up with their buddies on private squad channel or have a purse fight on chan200. Occasionally they run across a fight and have a little bit of dogfighting, or chasing, die, take off, back on auto-pilot and continue their conversation. That's great fun I bet for some. They have adapted to the realities of the Melee in 2020. If it works for them, awesome. I can tell you it is a way different experience than it was in 2002-2004.
POTW has been with AH since 2002 and we still do squad night and FSO. The MA old man chat room issue has caused half of the POTW "old men" to go play Planetside2. PS2 has thousands of guys playing in a three country sandbox arena just like AH. The action is exactly like the MA back in 2005 with 600 player nights. Except 3000 is an average Saturday night. Action is all the time land and air, that is why we went there. Our CO Waystin lead us there because the MA has become a boring old man chat room.
I tried for three years to improve game play with 4 terrains. Hitech allowed me room to experiment and after 4 terrains it was evident people wanted much quicker action. I suppose if Hitech looked the other way I could build a 5th terrain with all airfields 13 miles apart and GV spawns 1 mile apart with very sparse amounts of trees and it would generate lots of quick activity. Riftval and fjordma do exactly that because of the shorter base distances.
Aces High is the MA, it's not attracting anyone because it takes too much time to do anything on most terrains. Then once a new person gets to a fight, the 20 year veterans of the old guy friends club makes sure the game is no fun for a newbie in a few seconds. Shorter distances or "sooner"(quicker action) makes it possible to shrug that off and keep trying. If the newbie has to once again fly half the night to get back to a fight, the game will not attract people to stay with it.
Here is what POTW is doing in PS2. This film has our squad in some of the action, none of it is staged, just normal game activity. Remember, we still pay for accounts and show up in force for squad night and FSO. In FSO POTW is one of the largest squads in that event. On MA squad night we have to change country to try and balance ENY. And shuffler how many terrains did you build trying to help this game?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS4rg7VfKtI
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 03:08:51 PM
Have fun in the spacey FPS thingie.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on June 09, 2020, 03:11:22 PM
Like all maps, large or small, there's a front. The map could be as big as all of Europe but the fight is where 2 sides meet. As long as the map is designed to facilitate sides facing off, it works.
But with the amount of space in between bases, there's a lot more travel before you get to the fight than most other games. A couple minutes before you're into the fight is the norm in popular games.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 03:14:03 PM
But with the amount of space in between bases, there's a lot more travel before you get to the fight than most other games. A couple minutes before you're into the fight is the norm in popular games.
Wiley.
More map, more bases, spaced apart evenly. If players have trouble finding a fast fight on that then they aren't really trying to do that.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 09, 2020, 03:26:29 PM
To me, the primary, critical, immediate need in AH is to re-establish the gameplay cadence and pacing it had in the first 8 years of business. That is not changing chess into checkers. That is getting AH back to the gameplay experience that made it fun. How you can do that is a long discussion with unknowns that will take both experimentation, but also an willing culture of openness to experimentation and change. AH used to have huge amount of change regularly. That was part of the appeal. Watching it evolve and improved wondering what was coming next. That was a big part of the allure. That didn't change the game to something else. It changed the game to better versions of itself.
In the meantime...
3 hour side switch timer! Scratch that..... Side switch limit based on team count not clock hands!
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on June 09, 2020, 03:38:01 PM
To me, the primary, critical, immediate need in AH is to re-establish the gameplay cadence and pacing it had in the first 8 years of business.
I've only been here since 10. What was that cadence, and what about the actual gameplay was different versus simply having more people because there were no good alternatives that had what more people wanted?
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on June 09, 2020, 03:42:54 PM
I've only been here since 10. What was that cadence, and what about the actual gameplay was different versus simply having more people because there were no good alternatives that had what more people wanted?
Wiley.
We could see GV's from the air for one thing, which was a deterrant to run supplies to town. Which meant shooting down airplanes was required. Which in turn meant that more people were shooting at airplanes. Which made the game fun for people who like to shoot at airplanes in a combat flight simulator.
Also, if the fight was bad or your side was hording, you could switch countries and be stuck there for a maximum of 60 minutes.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 03:47:16 PM
Spanish Civil War. And Korea. :D
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Wiley on June 09, 2020, 03:49:56 PM
Also, if the fight was bad or your side was hording, you could switch countries and be stuck there for a maximum of 60 minutes.
I would give... not a body part, but maybe a few bucks to know the stats on how many people switched sides to even numbers all the way through the life of the game. Since I've been here, it feels like an infinitesimal minority.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Spikes on June 09, 2020, 03:51:25 PM
I would give... not a body part, but maybe a few bucks to know the stats on how many people switched sides to even numbers all the way through the life of the game. Since I've been here, it feels like an infinitesimal minority.
Wiley.
Who knows, but it was certainly nice to have the ability.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Arlo on June 09, 2020, 03:54:32 PM
I would give... not a body part, but maybe a few bucks to know the stats on how many people switched sides to even numbers all the way through the life of the game. Since I've been here, it feels like an infinitesimal minority.
I used to as well. I remember 1 hour time change. I liked it. I miss it. I'd switch a lot on weekends in non prime hours if I could. But, HT sure doesn't seem like he's going to budge.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 09, 2020, 04:21:05 PM
Who knows, but it was certainly nice to have the ability.
Probably an artificially low number due to the arbitrary time penalty for doing so.
The time limit you have to be with a country to share in it's perks for a map win seems perfectly reasonable to me.
But telling me I have to stay on the side with high numbers, keeping a game imbalanced, instead of switching to a side with low numbers, to move towards balance, for hours until some timer runs out, just seems nutty to me. I might be missing something.
Maybe if all increases to ENY during my switch timer were delayed until my timer ran out also, that would seem fair. Then it's like, hey, you can move, or stay and take an ENY penalty. But if you hit me with a ENY penalty with no ability to move and get out from under it, seems unfair.
Me: "I don't like this ENY. I'd rather switch and help the low side." Game: "No. I'm going to make you stay for hours more. AND, I'm going to punish you for staying."
:rofl
$0.02.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: CptTrips on June 09, 2020, 06:12:03 PM
Here is what POTW is doing in PS2. This film has our squad in some of the action, none of it is staged, just normal game activity. Remember, we still pay for accounts and show up in force for squad night and FSO. In FSO POTW is one of the largest squads in that event. On MA squad night we have to change country to try and balance ENY. And shuffler how many terrains did you build trying to help this game?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS4rg7VfKtI
I tried it for a while. It just didn't click for me. Hey, different strokes for different folks.
Now if you really want to try the greatest game ever produced by Western Civilization (Hey I put AH in the top 10!):
:rofl
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: DmonSlyr on June 09, 2020, 06:40:52 PM
I find that most of the time the side with the lowest #s isn't always the side that is losing or being ganged, sometimes they are winning or the ones hoarding. The thing with AH is that its more about the #s in the fight in a specific area than it is overall #s.
Any player can game the game by logging in, seeing the current situation, and switching to hit their previous teams CV or bombers on the way to a base.
That's just the way it is.
The current situation normally takes about an hour. Once the base is captured, cv is sunk, or hangers go down, it can completely change the fight. Then if the other team attacks and all the players move to defend it, it can change the tide quickly.
Personally, I think the majority of players who switch just want to be able to furball rather than be on the side with no fight or a huge hoard. 3 hours or 6 hours is arbitrary and its probably not going to make a difference in terms of the map changing. It will make a difference in keeping players in the game who can now be a furballer instead of a Oclubber in the tower contemplating on whether he/she should log off. 6 hours means you get to switch on time per day. If you make the wrong choice, too bad. If the tide of the fight changes, too bad. At least with 3 hours a player can change 2 times and keep the fights balanced. I find if a player cannot switch in order to stop a hoard, it unbalances the fight and makes it tough for any side to have fun. 1 side hoards, one side receives the hoard but doesn't have the furballers to fight it, the other side is left alone...
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: Devil 505 on June 09, 2020, 07:51:26 PM
We could see GV's from the air for one thing, which was a deterrant to run supplies to town. Which meant shooting down airplanes was required. Which in turn meant that more people were shooting at airplanes. Which made the game fun for people who like to shoot at airplanes in a combat flight simulator.
Also, if the fight was bad or your side was hording, you could switch countries and be stuck there for a maximum of 60 minutes.
Truth
And this was the norm well into 2012.
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: SPKmes on June 10, 2020, 05:42:57 PM
2 or 3 hours...yes please..
When you play at a time when 5 additional players to a side can cause a domination of the map a big yes please...
Title: Re: 3 Hour Side Switch Timer
Post by: perdue3 on June 10, 2020, 06:28:47 PM