Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: toonces3 on September 15, 2008, 10:52:04 AM
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This isn't a really shocking revelation.
Speed=options=life. If you have speed, you have options.
Yes, if you can get into a fight in the MA, you need to capitalize on your plane's strengths. And in and of itself, speed doesn't necessarily buy you anything magical with respect to killing the other guy.
But, speed allows you to dictate the terms of the fight somewhat, and more importantly, allows you to decide when it's time to get out and get home...and then allow you to do so.
I used to think that hitting power was the biggest factor in the MA. Being able to hit a guy in one pass and decapitate him immediately (like the k4's tater gun). I'm starting to think fast might be the biggest factor instead.
Provided you want to live to fight again in the same plane. If you don't plan on landing, speed doesn't matter as much.
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Haven't flown much lately, but the last couple times in the MA I was surprised at how few people were down low. Everyone seemed to be in something fast, and everyone seemed to be much higher then I am used to. Hit and run, hit and run...usually with numbers as well. This included the Spit and N1K drivers who in my experience are more apt to stick around and fight.
Just another phase the MA is going through I guess.
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MA seems to be dominated by niki's or runstangs. The niki's will spray an pray but stay. Runstangs you literally got to offer them your arse to keep um in the fight.
Yep....just another faze
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I used to think that hitting power was the biggest factor in the MA. Being able to hit a guy in one pass and decapitate him immediately (like the k4's tater gun). I'm starting to think fast might be the biggest factor instead.
Provided you want to live to fight again in the same plane. If you don't plan on landing, speed doesn't matter as much.
Doesn't the k4 offer the best of both worlds? The tater gun and basically as fast as a 51?
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Doesn't the k4 offer the best of both worlds? The tater gun and basically as fast as a 51?
A tator is harder to shoot then a 50 and also your 51 has a great dive speed(perfect for running :aok)
not saying you run I have never lived long enough to see that :D
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MA seems to be dominated by niki's or runstangs. The niki's will spray an pray but stay. Runstangs you literally got to offer them your arse to keep um in the fight.
Yep....just another faze
I really hate having to do that, but it does seem to me sometimes that if I don't pretend to not see them, they won't come within 4k of me! Those usually end up as some of the worst fights. Reverse and watch them run off after the advantage is blown. The only way to get them to come back is to stop chasing and let them get behind you!
At least I'm getting a lot better at hitting my targets after reversing instead of just missing; my improved fps is probably helping that a lot actually.
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A tator is harder to shoot then a 50 and also your 51 has a great dive speed(perfect for running :aok)
Uhh you may be right but this doesn't address what the OP is referring to. What I mean is, he was discussing hitting power and speed. With WEP, the K4 is actually fasdter than the 51. I'm not an expert though, I'm going off charts/data.
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The K-4 is faster than the 51, but try hitting a maneuvering target with the tater at high speed. :lol
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The K-4 is faster than the 51, but try hitting a maneuvering target with the tater at high speed. :lol
It makes sense what you and junky say don't get me wrong, but this wasn't a concern of the OP. If I'm nitpicking, I apologize.
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In my opinion, the K4 is the best non-perk plane in the game. The only downside, if it's a downside, is that the tater gun is hard to hit with. Some uber-stick is going to argue this point with me, but I put forth that for the average player, the tater is hard to hit with. But if I can hit with it, then it can be done.
You have to get close. Real close. Whites of their eyes close. Then shoot. Don't shoot unless/until the shot you take you expect to hit. Like that exact tater you're shooting you expect to hit.
The only thing the K4 sucks at is going downhill. BnZ is hard without hawking your airspeed indicator. It's not a big advantage to come in with alot of alt to kill cause the plane sucks going downhill.
But, yes, lots of speed and provided you don't get careless, you can extricate yourself from a bad position. Tons of WEP so you can out-WEP pretty much anything but another German plane, and maybe the La-7 (dunno).
N1K. Great plane. But not dominating. Yes the cannons are scary. But it's not a superior plane. It's not fast.
Get in a fight with a Pony and blow all your ammo and/or speed. Now try to get out of the fight. You're not going to be able to.
How about that Pony that's running? If he doesn't turn around, the fight's over.
Last night was when I started thinking about this alot. I flew an F4U-1A to an enemy field solo. Only a small darbar, so I figured I could get in, get my kill, and get out.
I get there and actually there's a 190a8 over the field go-alt. Go a few rounds, he runs to the ack except, for some reason, the server was porked and the ack didn't work! LOL. So I kill him.
See another friendly with a spit and La-5 on him. Light up the La-5, but run out of ammo.
Spit 9 gets right on my tail, along with a Yak-9T. It's getting really busy. A hornets nest is stirred up. Red cons all over. I reef into a turn and drop flaps and throw out everything that isn't strapped down and start eating up the angles on the Yak. Yak breaks off. A green con flashes by somewhere. Go a turn or two with the Spit. Spit breaks off.
Nothing behind me. I egress at 100' on the water, full WEP. Flaps sucked up. I'm checking 6, but I look clear. About 3 minutes go by and then WHAM! something lights me up and it's straight to the tower. Some dude got tucked in behind that blast shield, reeled in the distance, lit me up point blank.
Some speed and I would have gotten away clean. Without speed, no ammo, no options.
I'd have been better off burning my ammo off in the K4, then I could have scooted out and walked away from most of the planes back there.
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It makes sense what you and junky say don't get me wrong, but this wasn't a concern of the OP. If I'm nitpicking, I apologize.
Honestly a pack of any high speed planes can completely dominate a base. One dives in others hold alt,another dives, so on and so forth. This tactic is really fun to do but being the enemy of this it gets really old. Im starting to fly the ki84 and the ki61 because they are both very good movers and pretty fast at climbing, seems to confuse the bnzers a bit.
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Haven't flown much lately, but the last couple times in the MA I was surprised at how few people were down low. Everyone seemed to be in something fast, and everyone seemed to be much higher then I am used to. Hit and run, hit and run...usually with numbers as well. This included the Spit and N1K drivers who in my experience are more apt to stick around and fight.
Just another phase the MA is going through I guess.
I logged on last night, upped a base with red dar, and saw 13 ponies, 6 doras, and 4 niki's. I was actually shocked to see the spixteen come in. :rolleyes:
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Im starting to fly the ki84 and the ki61 because they are both very good movers and pretty fast at climbing, seems to confuse the bnzers a bit.
The Ki-84 has a good rate of climb indeed, but the 61 is a mediocre climber, barely scratching 3000 fpm at sea level. It's even beaten by American planes like the P-47D40, P-51 and P40E
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alt=life at most times
speed second thing
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Yea, ponies are getting sad. I've seen people I've known for a while try to BnZ me off the runway in a Pony then take off. I dont give chase, but by the time they come back around, I'm above them in my pony. So, I just hunt em down and kill em. :rolleyes:
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but the 61 is a mediocre climber, barely scratching 3000 fpm at sea level. It's even beaten by American planes like the P-47D40, P-51 and P40E
Like I've said "It's the Indian, NOT the Arrow." I implore you all to keep bashing the 61, It's a steaming pile of cow dung. Don't listen to me!
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cartoon airplane life is overated.
funny about most of these alt monkeys, is they have no idea what do with it. Most guys stay high, make a few lame passes...eventually get frustrated, blow the E, blow there alt, and end up a flaming wreck. Makes me wonder why they bothered to climb all the way up there to begin with. I might add, picking planes as they are going after others I guess is an effective strategy, but not sure how fun. How fun can something be when it takes no effort and has little to no danger?....then again, people love vulching too.
Maybe some people will have slightly better k/d ratio's, that is what is most important anyway. How would anyone know your any good unless they look at your rank :rofl
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Like I've said "It's the Indian, NOT the Arrow." I implore you all to keep bashing the 61, It's a steaming pile of cow dung. Don't listen to me!
I see it as the Japanese P-39. It's underestimated, but in the right hands, watch out!
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Speed and maneuverability are almost diametrically opposed in WWII air combat fighters. The faster the plane the lower its sustained turn-rate and vice-versa. I call speed fighters "initiative" fighters, because that's really what speed is, the potential for tactical and strategic initiative. The ability to get and maintain the initiative is crucial in air combat. At its core speed is actually an offensive quality. It affords the fighter the opportunity to attack with a high rate of closure with relative impunity assuming the advantage can be maintained. Superior maneuverability is defensive at its core, affording the opportunity to turn at a rate that spoils a potential gun solution of a plane that cannot match that turn-rate. The only time turn-rate can be offensive is if the enemy has already decided to turn with you and you are able to gain angles for a shot with it. If he decides not to turn with you, turn-rate can only serve a defensive purpose.
The ability to engage and disengage at will is an extremely powerful tool for the thinking fighter pilot. Maintaining the initiative in this way is difficult in complex engagements, but when done properly, in concert with good SA and gunnery, it's magical. The ability to turn well is extremely important in isolated encounters, but in a complex engagements against equally skilled foes it becomes largely defensive and relatively unimportant. The only way maneuverability is going to allow you to disengage is if you destroy all the enemy that choose to engage you, which is obviously impractical in most complex engagements.
If you think of speed as initiative you quickly realize that it allows you to choose when, if, where and how a fight occurs. Even a fast plane that is "egressing" actually has the initiative, he is effectively pulling the chasers around by the nose, they are the tail and he is the dog. The problem with initiative fighters in the MA is a lot of people use them poorly and misunderstand how to fully exploit the initiative. Exploiting the initiative to maximum effectiveness is very cerebral and nuanced, not nearly as straightforward and mechanical as latching onto someone's 6 with a Zeke and plugging away until one of you dies. A lot of people use initiative fighters who really don't have the disposition for it or sufficient understanding of it, this leads to the "timidity" factor observed in the MA and their relative ineffectiveness.
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Flying solo, speed has always been the greatest MA asset. It allows you to pick your fights, rather than fighting the "pile on" horde behaviour.
My biggest gripe with the MA and any unstructured combat is that planes from the nearest enemy base will continually up, making your fight harder and harder to ultimately win unless you can extend when necessary. It's not the fair tradeoff of "Well, if I blow my E in this 190A8 to get this kill, it puts me in a bad position, but at least it's one bad guy out of the fight." No. At least one more enemy has joined the fight to replace the one you sacrificed your E for. You don't get your E magically back. So in many ways it's not as dweebish as it's made out to be to put yourself in a fast enough plane so you don't fall victim to the oncoming conga line.
I use speed as a means of finding fair engagements. If I'm in a fast plane low and slow and see an unwinnable fight developing, I'll try to get out until I can get the odds back to at least their 2 vs my 1. So while some may say it must be boring running from a mass of red planes, it's actually more fun to me in the long run, as I end up getting more fair fights by dictating the fighting terms.
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In my opinion, the K4 is the best non-perk plane in the game.
Combining speed with an incredible rate of climb is the easiest way to dictate a fight, or to evade one.
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I think acceleration in a VERY scary thing in the MA. So many times I've watched a Spitfire make a complete 180 degree turn to get on my six, and somehow accelerate to over 300 MPH in a split second... :frown:
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About acceleration . . . many times I'll merge with a F4U. I'll be 250 - 300 mph (white needle) or better. Look behind me as tracers pass the canopy and see the hog 600 out. Had no clue why since I've not flown the hog for years.
Yesterday I flew them all. And during a normal merge, sure enough, I'd be 600 back of the bad guy after a merge. The real hog pilots use its acceleration to much better affect than I.
Acceleration/speed/alt relative to what's able to wack you or be wacked by you means tons. Too much and you're out of the loop. Too little and you're in the tower.
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Combining speed with an incredible rate of climb is the easiest way to dictate a fight, or to evade one.
One thing about 109s I've usually noticed is that they want to fight, not extend past icon and maybe a sector or two just in case; some p51 guys rely soley on that ability. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz so boring.
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I <3 K4. It's probably the best over 5 perk TnB plane in the game after the F4Us.
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I <3 K4. It's probably the best over 5 perk TnB plane in the game after the F4Us.
Give us back the 109G-10 with a 20mm MG151!!!! :D
:pray
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In my opinion, the K4 is the best non-perk plane in the game.
Depends. If you actually want to fight, there are better choices.
The only thing the K4 sucks at is going downhill. BnZ is hard without hawking your airspeed indicator. It's not a big advantage to come in with alot of alt to kill cause the plane sucks going downhill.
Rule #253
When in K4 you attack from same or lower altitude.
Rule #254
When in K4 you attack at same or slower speed if con is heading your way.
Rule #255
Sometimes you have to violate rule #253 and #254
If you constantly have to dive on cons, you're using K4 wrong way.
Nothing behind me. I egress at 100' on the water, full WEP. Flaps sucked up. I'm checking 6, but I look clear. About 3 minutes go by and then WHAM! something lights me up and it's straight to the tower. Some dude got tucked in behind that blast shield, reeled in the distance, lit me up point blank.
If you fly 3 minutes, without banking and turning a bit to check your low six, then it's solely your fault. Bad bad SA. Besides, you'd have nice 1 vs 1, and in f4u, you'd have all tools necessary to kill other guy.
Some speed and I would have gotten away clean. Without speed, no ammo, no options.
Again, matter of SA. If you are one of those who like to land, you got to save some ammo, you have to know when is time to RTB. SA SA
Toonces, I know your flying from good old AvA days. If you'd actually bother to improve your SA and ACM you'd have options at all speeds and game would be less frustrating for you.
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MA seems to be dominated by niki's or runstangs. The niki's will spray an pray but stay. Runstangs you literally got to offer them your arse to keep um in the fight.
Yep....just another faze
I was flying a P-47D-11 last night. I ran into two P-51's at different times and was hoping each would fight. Instead each dove to my base (Jabos I guess). Mistake. I killed one as he tried to climb and bring it back over the top and the other as he tried to run... I mean extend... on the deck.
Put the nose down in a Jug and no Ponies going to get away. :)
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Speed and maneuverability are almost diametrically opposed in WWII air combat fighters. The faster the plane the lower its sustained turn-rate and vice-versa. I call speed fighters "initiative" fighters, because that's really what speed is, the potential for tactical and strategic initiative. The ability to get and maintain the initiative is crucial in air combat. At its core speed is actually an offensive quality. It affords the fighter the opportunity to attack with a high rate of closure with relative impunity assuming the advantage can be maintained. Superior maneuverability is defensive at its core, affording the opportunity to turn at a rate that spoils a potential gun solution of a plane that cannot match that turn-rate. The only time turn-rate can be offensive is if the enemy has already decided to turn with you and you are able to gain angles for a shot with it. If he decides not to turn with you, turn-rate can only serve a defensive purpose.
The ability to engage and disengage at will is an extremely powerful tool for the thinking fighter pilot. Maintaining the initiative in this way is difficult in complex engagements, but when done properly, in concert with good SA and gunnery, it's magical. The ability to turn well is extremely important in isolated encounters, but in a complex engagements against equally skilled foes it becomes largely defensive and relatively unimportant. The only way maneuverability is going to allow you to disengage is if you destroy all the enemy that choose to engage you, which is obviously impractical in most complex engagements.
If you think of speed as initiative you quickly realize that it allows you to choose when, if, where and how a fight occurs. Even a fast plane that is "egressing" actually has the initiative, he is effectively pulling the chasers around by the nose, they are the tail and he is the dog. The problem with initiative fighters in the MA is a lot of people use them poorly and misunderstand how to fully exploit the initiative. Exploiting the initiative to maximum effectiveness is very cerebral and nuanced, not nearly as straightforward and mechanical as latching onto someone's 6 with a Zeke and plugging away until one of you dies. A lot of people use initiative fighters who really don't have the disposition for it or sufficient understanding of it, this leads to the "timidity" factor observed in the MA and their relative ineffectiveness.
I give this post a 9.9/10.
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A half dozen sorties in a Spit, easily getting on the tail of any other Spit-N1k-even Zeke that offers a real fight, only to have them dive/run/stick stir away to friends/ack before you can shoot them while calling their 12 legions of pickers down upon you, will make a bnz/picker out of anybody.
Sorry fellas, but Zaz is right. It is just not worth it to try to have a dogfight with anybody in the MA unless you can look horizon to horizon and see no other red. OR green. Fly in a horde, come in on the tail of anyone who is occupied, and run screaming for help if it even looks like the bandit you are fighting is gaining your six, that is the way its done in the MA, and like it or lump it, it works better than trying to do it any other way.
cartoon airplane life is overated.
funny about most of these alt monkeys, is they have no idea what do with it. Most guys stay high, make a few lame passes...eventually get frustrated, blow the E, blow there alt, and end up a flaming wreck. Makes me wonder why they bothered to climb all the way up there to begin with. I might add, picking planes as they are going after others I guess is an effective strategy, but not sure how fun. How fun can something be when it takes no effort and has little to no danger?....then again, people love vulching too.
Maybe some people will have slightly better k/d ratio's, that is what is most important anyway. How would anyone know your any good unless they look at your rank :rofl
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It is just not worth it to try to have a dogfight with anybody in the MA unless you can look horizon to horizon and see no other red. OR green. Fly in a horde, come in on the tail of anyone who is occupied, and run screaming for help if it even looks like the bandit you are fighting is gaining your six, that is the way its done in the MA, and like it or lump it, it works better than trying to do it any other way.
Yeah, and as long as you guys will preach that kind of attitude it'll just get worse.
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MA seems to be dominated by niki's or runstangs. The niki's will spray an pray but stay. Runstangs you literally got to offer them your arse to keep um in the fight.
Yep....just another faze
Yeah, 99% of the P-51s I encounter are "runstangs".
But imagine my surprise last nite as I co-alt merge with a 51 and I go turn around to chase him, but instead find him hanging in mid air about 2k above and behind me :O
Long story short, we fought for about 2 minutes and next thing I knew,I was enjoying a nice Capt and Coke in the tower.
Ran into Shane08 twice last nite in his stang.
It wasn't pretty.
But the Capt. and Cokes were pretty damn good.
It was definitely a surprise, but a pleasant one.
I will certainly not take ANY 51 for granted again.
You never know who's behind the wheel!!
I wish there were more 51 pilots like him, It makes for a veeeery interesting nite!
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Ran into Shane08 twice last nite in his stang.
Yup, he can fight in any plane.
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Sorry fellas, but Zaz is right. It is just not worth it to try to have a dogfight with anybody in the MA unless you can look horizon to horizon and see no other red. OR green. Fly in a horde, come in on the tail of anyone who is occupied, and run screaming for help if it even looks like the bandit you are fighting is gaining your six, that is the way its done in the MA, and like it or lump it, it works better than trying to do it any other way.
I don't think that's a very charitable interpretation of what zazen said.
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If you get bored of fast planes you can pacify yourselves with " a false sense of speed"
It's real easy........implant the 262 jet engine sound into the engine sound file of your A6M and stuka. :P
:salute
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Yeah, and as long as you guys will preach that kind of attitude it'll just get worse.
It was already "worse" when I got here. What, am I to ignore my own experiences? Besides, I don't think there will be many takers on the opposite advice:
"Okay, go ahead and fly the slowest plane in the hangar. Ignore odds and energy states. If you get shot down 6 times for every time one the bandits bnz'ing you is stupid enough to slow down and get killed by you, that is fine, because your kill/loss ratio or the fact that you are starting to loath a game you used to think was great is of no importance."
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You're talking like we are in damn war. It's a game, which can be very fun if you dare to try something else besides "live at all costs".
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You're talking like we are in damn war. It's a game, which can be very fun if you dare to try something else besides "live at all costs".
I "dare". How else would I know?
And nope, the circumstances I describe, are not even a little bit of fun. In fact, it is the opposite of fun. x10.
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I "dare". How else would I know?
And nope, the circumstances I describe, are not even a little bit of fun. In fact, it is the opposite of fun. x10.
You have to learn to walk before you can run...
Some former B&Z and cherry picking guys (Yenny for example) are starting to figure out how fun can it be. Of course, you have to polish a little bit on ACM and such.
That doesn't mean you have to stick to it forever. It's just another aspect of the game, another tool in your box...
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You have to learn to walk before you can run...
Some former B&Z and cherry picking guys (Yenny for example) are starting to figure out how fun can it be. Of course, you have to polish a little bit on ACM and such.
That doesn't mean you have to stick to it forever. It's just another aspect of the game, another tool in your box...
I was never a pure bnz cherrypicker though, my handle aside. It just seems like in the MA lately, any attempt at a sustained fight means you end up under a dogpile, which no amount of ACM can get you out of.
Unless you outnumber the other side. Then typically, say you engage a bandit high. Then you get to watch the bandit you spent time, energy, and Energy fighting get blown out of the sky by a friendly swooping. 12 clears are always easy to come by.
So, I cannot, in good faith advise "flying like an idiot" (by Batfink's definition) to anyone who is not a masochist.
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Hehe I kinda stop playing after I realized it just a game :cry. I want something more realistic so I picked up microsolf flight sim!
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I'll take timing and position over speed and horse power any day.
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I just tried to see what you are meaning about the 109K but the performance chart #1 is not loading for some reason.
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And the opposite of RunspeedstangdoraK4?
Try the Hurri I for a tour. It's all Schatzi flew for the longest time, taking patience and toleration of killsteals and death. But there's not much like the feeling you get taking out a La7, or an overconfident zeke.
Kinda miss seeing Schatzi around....<S> for the departed!
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Ok, I just watched Pete Bonnani's "Art of the Kill" and he touched upon exactly what I was talking about when I started this thread, and what Zazen and Trotter put so eloquently.
Speed builds a bigger 'escape window'.
Bonnani explains that, when you enter a fight, once you begin maneuvering both your energy and your SA begin to decrease. When you begin a fight, your escape window is large. As a fight goes on, both your energy and your SA go down; and with them, your escape window becomes smaller.
Upon entering a fight in the MA, your escape window depends on a number of factors: how far from a friendly base, other friendlies around, your alt, speed, type of plane, etc. Once you engage and commit to a fight in the MA, your escape window gets smaller as a factor of the parameters that initially determined the size of it.
Any plane, even the 262, caught low and slow on the deck can be hit and killed by another plane.
But, assuming a moderate environment, avoiding extremes of alt and energy, I think speed might be the best asset for a plane to survive engagements in the MA. If you blow everything, this argument doesn't make sense. But, if you fight sensibly, having the top end speed may be the biggest survival factor in the MA.
I use the situation I portrayed earlier to illustrate my point. I engaged outnumbered and successfully fought defensive BFM to defeat two bogeys and get into my escape window. Neither the Yak, nor the Spit were a factor once I disengaged....with enough top end speed. It was being a bit too slow that allowed an enemy to very slowly catch me (and kill me) that was the biggest factor in the fight because once I got into the fight, the only thing that would allow me to successfully disengage was to be able to egress out of gun range of the bogeys.
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I guess it all depends on what your style is. If you're looking to dictate the terms of a fight, be able to disengage at will, and have a higher probability of landing, then yes, I suppose speed would be the #1 asset in the MA, much as it was in real life.
Those aren't really my priorities. What I like is being able to fight under any terms dictated to me, to be able to stay engaged for an extended period of time, and I really don't care too much if I land or not. For me, speed is just a useful tool for forcing a fight.
I'd say the most valuable assets for me are acceleration and climb rate... I probably feel this way because I spend much of my time in a plane that lacks in both departments, the F4U-1A...
With acceleration and climb rate, I have the opportunity to regain energy that I spend flying like a guy with a deathwish. My style does not usually require an excess of energy over my opponent, but just enough energy to be able to maneuver effectively. In a Corsair, my maneuver window shrinks and shrinks as the fight progresses, and without sky beneath me, it is very hard to reverse that.
I find that I can stay alive longer when fighting multiple cons in something like an La7 or 109K4 than I do in a F4U1-A, despite the facts that I've spent most of my time trying to learn the 1A, and that I personally find the 1A a much better 1v1 knifefighter than either the 109 or La7.
Just look at the F4U-4... It's universally regarded as a monster in this game, yet not because of its speed - all Corsairs are fast... It is a monster because it can do all the things a regular Corsair can do, plus regain energy quicker with a much improved acceleration and climbrate. Its maneuever window does not shrink nearly as quickly as its predecessors'.
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I was never a pure bnz cherrypicker though, my handle aside. It just seems like in the MA lately, any attempt at a sustained fight means you end up under a dogpile, which no amount of ACM can get you out of.
While I didn't agree with your "fly in a horde" comment earlier, I'll buy this for a dollar. The problem is though, that your aforementioned horde is the problem, a Catch 22. You use it to survive, but if there wasn't a horde, there'd be no need for a horde to defend against it.
Of course, as Trotter and Toonces know, I'm a little bitter on the MA these days...
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In the Gliders world we say:
"altitude is money in the bank, speed is money in the poket" :)
greetz!
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But, assuming a moderate environment, avoiding extremes of alt and energy, I think speed might be the best asset for a plane to survive engagements in the MA. If you blow everything, this argument doesn't make sense. But, if you fight sensibly, having the top end speed may be the biggest survival factor in the MA.
It's even more than that. Speed allows you to force an engagement upon others. If you're slow you can basically only engage those that choose to let you engage them. If you're fast, they don't have a choice, you're going to engage them whether they like it or not. Too many people in the MA only see the "speed = life" side of the coin. Speed is also the practically unlimited ability to attack at will when it's "convenient" for you and "inconvenient" for the bandit. That is really the the true "power" of speed. Slower planes are more or less powerless against a faster plane driven by a pilot who understands this. The best they can possibly hope for, if you enjoy a significant speed differential, is to force you to disengage.
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While I didn't agree with your "fly in a horde" comment earlier, I'll buy this for a dollar. The problem is though, that your aforementioned horde is the problem, a Catch 22. You use it to survive, but if there wasn't a horde, there'd be no need for a horde to defend against it.
Of course, as Trotter and Toonces know, I'm a little bitter on the MA these days...
Philosophically, I agree more with Trotter that the best and sometimes only way to get a dogfight that goes more than 20 seconds uninterrupted is to fly one of the speed burners and drag something willing to follow you to neutral territory.
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I look for a red dot, usually more behind it and I go for it. I get a new plane regardless.
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It's even more than that. Speed allows you to force an engagement upon others.
Just for argument sake though Zaz, why don't we all dog-pile into LA-7's then? Tactically, you're absolutely correct. From a "fun for everyone"/playability aspect, that tactical truth won't do much for the game. If everyone subscribed to the "speed as the genesis of initiative" approach, we'd be in for some boring fights. Personally, I don't mind a mis-match, as many of us don't. The problem is that if a P-51 wants to BnZ a Spit for 45 minutes, without blowing much E to pull for a real shot, that Spit pilot is not going to have fun.
For whatever that's worth...
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Just for argument sake though Zaz, why don't we all dog-pile into LA-7's then? Tactically, you're absolutely correct. From a "fun for everyone"/playability aspect, that tactical truth won't do much for the game. If everyone subscribed to the "speed as the genesis of initiative" approach, we'd be in for some boring fights. Personally, I don't mind a mis-match, as many of us don't. The problem is that if a P-51 wants to BnZ a Spit for 45 minutes, without blowing much E to pull for a real shot, that Spit pilot is not going to have fun.
For whatever that's worth...
It's all relative. By that I mean a fight between a P51 and a P47N is potentially just as interesting and likely as a fight between a SpitXVI and a Niki. Naturally, the greater the speed disparity the greater the initiative the speedier plane has over the slower, but presumably more maneuverable plane. However, two fast planes with comparable maneuverability are just as likely to feel compelled to fight one another as two slow ones as their potential for tactical initiative is also equal. If their speed is similar then their maneuverability is likely comparable also, so they will have equal opportunity and desire to force a fight upon one another as two equally slow and maneuverable planes...
The actual terms of the engagement may vary semantically between fast planes, but the likelihood of an engagement essentially remains the same between them. Actually, the likelihood of engagement in a fast plane generally increases as the faster plane is very likely to be engaged by any and every slower plane in a position of E advantage sufficient to temporarily force an engagement upon the fast plane in an aggressive and intimate fashion. The exact opposite is true of slow but maneuverable planes, they are generally much less likely to be engaged in a fashion that would tend to precipitate anything resembling an intimate engagement, being much more likely to be victimized by high speed slashing attacks.
So, ironically, if you seek to be engaged as much as possible, as intimately as possible, then fly fast planes. Of course, to enjoy any kind of success in this way will require the skill necessary to out-fly/out-think pilots in more maneuverable planes. Flying slow, but very maneuverable planes, ironically, is the worst possible thing you can do if you wish to be engaged, especially on relatively even terms. People that cruise around at 12k+ in Spits, Nikis and the like, whining non-stop about their perception of the lack of true "fights" just make me chuckle. If you want "fights" you must handicap yourself with poor maneuverability, you will then be engaged as much as your heart desires.