Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => King of the Hill => Topic started by: Midnight on May 23, 2005, 06:34:42 PM
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Let's get this one clarified. I got called on this a few times during KOTH the other night and I think it is nonsense if there are more than 2 planes airborne.
Reason: I like to BnZ and I fight best that way. Why should I be forced into a turn-fight with someone just because they think they want to shoot at me? If I see two other planes 4K away from me, and someone gets on my 6 at 1.2K and calls out "I'm engaging you Midnight", there is no way I am going to turn to fight unless the bandit is getting close enough to shoot. I want to be able to make sure I have E to fight my fight, rather than get in a turn fight with whomever and then find that the bandits that were once at 4K are now flying right at me while I am distracted in a turn fight.
Anyway, my opinion is no 60 second rule until the fight is down to the last 2 planes, and even then I don't like it because of Fuel requirements. Some people like to take the bare minimum of fuel so they can have a maneuvering advantage, so by Forcing the 60 second rule, you are forcing a guy that might be disadvantaged by fuel weight to get into a turn-fight with a lighter plane.
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well said. that 2 for getting rid of it and zero against.
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Question#1- did BigMax not host the KOTH last Saturday night? if not who did host it?
Question#2- only time I ever recall anyone having issues with the 60 second rule was a debate involving Lute and ManeTMP, that has been a good 4 or 5 months back, most times the 60 second rule has never had any negative results.
Question#3- why did Valkyrie say" If WMLute and fuzeman have their way about the rules" in that other thread? are WMLute and Fuzeman new KOTH CM hosters?
Midnight, hope this issue gets resolved for ya, sounds like you got suckered into the 60 second rule, and taken advantage of, but a film would be helpful in resolving what happened or what might have been a wrong call or maybe went wrong......
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TC if you read their post or talk with them it sounds as though they are the ones doing the new rules. They are becoming CM's through training and I assumed it was for KOTH. Fuzeman said it was a pain.
Vlkyrie1
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Question#1- did BigMax not host the KOTH last Saturday night? if not who did host it?
Question#2- only time I ever recall anyone having issues with the 60 second rule was a debate involving Lute and ManeTMP, that has been a good 4 or 5 months back, most times the 60 second rule has never had any negative results.
Question#3- why did Valkyrie say" If WMLute and fuzeman have their way about the rules" in that other thread? are WMLute and Fuzeman new KOTH CM hosters?
Midnight, hope this issue gets resolved for ya, sounds like you got suckered into the 60 second rule, and taken advantage of, but a film would be helpful in resolving what happened or what might have been a wrong call or maybe went wrong......
1. BigMax was the host last KOTH. Fuzeman and myself were host's in training.
2. The 60 second rule generally has not been much of an issue. Most people understand that the KOTH is about fighting. It is about Situational Awarness, and position. IF you suddenly find someone 1.2 out on your 6, then you just found yourself out of position, and lacked SA. KOTH is about the "whole" picture. IF you have someone 1.2 out on your 6, and you are not wanting to fight, you have 60 seconds to build up your E, get a better position whatever. AFTER 60 seconds has passed, you MUST turn and fight. Now the rule was clarified by BigMax * What starts the 60 second clock? A player chasing another from the rear hemisphere (in ICON range) and stating his intent to engage on TEXT CHANNEL(2 or 200) (the text will allow me, as CM to have an idea when the intent was stated)
*What resets the counter? The running player in the aforementioned example could opt to try and establish seperation again "IF" he makes a reversal and passes within 1000' of the pursuer. (I think this is the best way to word this so-as to allow both players the flexibility to fight their fight.
The bottom line is after 60 seconds has pass, you HAVE to reverse. That doesn't mean you have to start knife fighting.
3. Yes TC, Fuzeman and myself will be shortly taking over for BigMax. BigMax has decided to step down as the KOTH head CM, and we all need to thank and him for a wonderfuly fun two years of awesome King of the Hill fights.
Originally posted by Midnight
Let's get this one clarified. I got called on this a few times during KOTH the other night and I think it is nonsense if there are more than 2 planes airborne.
Reason: I like to BnZ and I fight best that way. Why should I be forced into a turn-fight with someone just because they think they want to shoot at me? If I see two other planes 4K away from me, and someone gets on my 6 at 1.2K and calls out "I'm engaging you Midnight", there is no way I am going to turn to fight unless the bandit is getting close enough to shoot. I want to be able to make sure I have E to fight my fight, rather than get in a turn fight with whomever and then find that the bandits that were once at 4K are now flying right at me while I am distracted in a turn fight.
Anyway, my opinion is no 60 second rule until the fight is down to the last 2 planes, and even then I don't like it because of Fuel requirements. Some people like to take the bare minimum of fuel so they can have a maneuvering advantage, so by Forcing the 60 second rule, you are forcing a guy that might be disadvantaged by fuel weight to get into a turn-fight with a lighter plane.
Midnight, it IS clarified. I totally understand what you are saying. As I posted above, you don't have to suddenly start turning and burning. You can build E and position for 60 seconds, reverse, pass within 1k of your opponent, and that resets the 60 second clock. You can drag that enemy over to them 4k players, reverse, and try to get THEM to fight. When you reverse after 60 seconds, and find those two 4k cons have finished their fight, and the winner is flying towards you, you can use the 60 second rule to try and position THEM into fighting the guy on your six. I've seen it done (and done it) many times. Trust me, it's quite do-able, and I have witnessed many players using the 60sec rule to do exactly that. Nobody is forcing anybody to fly a certain style.
BUT to be clear here, KOTH is not about avoiding all fights except the ones you want. KOTH is about fighting. Period. You can fly smart, knife fight, angle fight, and b/z to your hearts content. If you have decided to ONLY b/z, then ya' better keep up your SA, and work real hard on learning how to position the other players so you have the luxury to do so, BUT ya' gota do it within the rules.
About fuel. Take whatever fuel load you want. But it has been my experience in the past 2yrs of flying basically every USA and EURO Koth that the fights will last 15-20min. I almost always try and take roughly 20min of fuel, as I plan on being the last guy up. If a player decides to go light on fuel, say 10min, they will have an advantage for that 10min over their opponents. The problem though is they have absolutely no chance of winning the round. They will run out of fuel well before the fights are over. So again, it's the players choice, but if you want to win the round, you need to plan to have enough fuel to LAST to the end of the round.
Originally posted by Valkyrie
well said. that 2 for getting rid of it and zero against.
This rule is not going to change. Fuzeman and I might tweak it, but I doubt it. Not sure how Fuzeman feels, but I think BigMax has set it up just about right.
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well said lute.
people who complain about the 60 seconds and alt cap. do not understand the "spirit" of KOTH.
Koth is not about creating a "mini" MA. its for people who enjoy the fight itself and not racking up easy kills ala BnZ style.
heck, if it was up to me we would have a alt cap of like 4k and maybe 3 seconds to engage :D
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Originally posted by Valkyrie
Fuzeman said it was a pain.
Vlkyrie1
MrS-Vlkyrie1 the 'pain' is really dealing with players who blatently say 'I have no respect for that rule.' Ring a bell??
Another thing MrS-Vlkyrie1, DO NOT private message us in the other arenas reagarding this matter, THIS is the place for the discussion.
Personally, if I get any private messages regarding this matter when I'm flying, whomever send it is going to get squelched and not answered.
{ Yikes, I forgot to tell The Boss I got a second job. }
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WMLute
I understand what is being said, but then what range is considered a breaking off of the 60 second rule?
Example - I pass another plane (nose to nose, head on, co-E) heading to what I see as a 4 man fight about 6 or 7K away. The plane I just passed reverses and tries to get on my six. As soon as he completes the 180 degree turn, he calls out "I am engaging you Midnight, you have to turn" By the time he completes the turn, he is 1.2K away and fading (due to lost E in his turn). I know that he cannot build speed to catch me, so I continue to my original destination.
OK, so I keep pulling away from the guy and get over 2K away from him... does that break the 60 second clock? If no, what range would? 3K, 4k? There has to be a feasible engagement limit.
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And to those who say KOTH is all about fighting, I agree. However, picking the order in which you fight is not against the rules. I try to determine where the biggest threats are and try to engage them first and don't want to have to engage someone I percieve to be inexperinced or a newbie. If I see ManeTMP and some guy named L33TOnE, I am going to try to setup an attack on Mane to fight him, regardless of what L33TOnE thinks about engaging me.
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Originally posted by Midnight
WMLute
I understand what is being said, but then what range is considered a breaking off of the 60 second rule?
Example - I pass another plane (nose to nose, head on, co-E) heading to what I see as a 4 man fight about 6 or 7K away. The plane I just passed reverses and tries to get on my six. As soon as he completes the 180 degree turn, he calls out "I am engaging you Midnight, you have to turn" By the time he completes the turn, he is 1.2K away and fading (due to lost E in his turn). I know that he cannot build speed to catch me, so I continue to my original destination.
OK, so I keep pulling away from the guy and get over 2K away from him... does that break the 60 second clock? If no, what range would? 3K, 4k? There has to be a feasible engagement limit.
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And to those who say KOTH is all about fighting, I agree. However, picking the order in which you fight is not against the rules. I try to determine where the biggest threats are and try to engage them first and don't want to have to engage someone I percieve to be inexperinced or a newbie. If I see ManeTMP and some guy named L33TOnE, I am going to try to setup an attack on Mane to fight him, regardless of what L33TOnE thinks about engaging me.
excellent questions. I would ref. you a few posts down to this thread
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149064
"The Hovering Non Fighting KOTH Vulchers" where I asked some similar questions, and made some similar points.
ManeTMP, BigMax, and I have gone around and around re. the 60 second rule. In one instance, I merged with ManeTMP, and he dove out. I had an Alt/E advantage from the merge, and so I kept up with him. I was now 1-2k back, and say maybe 2-3k higher(ish, I have slept since then) and he was slowly pulling away in a gentle dive. So we fly like this for a min, then 2, then 5, the whole time arguing over the country channel. Per. the KOTH rules, he HAD to turn at 60 seconds. Could I have have blown my alt/e and caught up with Mane? Yup. That was what he wanted me to do. He wanted me to fight "his" fight. Did he have to turn after 60 seconds passed and come back at me? Yup. That was what I wanted him to do so he would have to fight "my" fight.
Mane felt that I should have dove in, converting my alt to speed and attacked him, and by not doing so that I was avoiding the fight. What it all boiled down to after much "discussion" was this. Mane had to turn. Too bad that I had the advantage, but he had to turn. You can run in KOTH, but only for 60 seconds. If that means you have to reverse into a situation where you are at a disadvantage, then so be it, you gota reverse.
When you passed that con nose to nose co-E the fight was "on" at that point. You merged. You are then fighting. You can choose to extend for up to 60seconds. Distances are not relative at this point. You just merged with a guy, you two are fighting. Just because he reversed and you didn't doesn't mean that you are not in a fight. You just chose to extend, he chose to reverse. You have 60 seconds to position yourself in any way you choose. You can extend, climb, zero G dive what ever. BUT you have to reverese within' 60 seconds.
If you pass someone co E like that, and neither of you break, turn, reverse etc, then IMHO u2 are not in a fight, and there is no 60 seconds rule. I have seen this happen as well. You don't HAVE to fight every plane that you see, but you can't avoid fights either. Let's say I am flying over 3 guys fighting on the deck, and in the distance I see a co-alt plane. I can choose to go attack the co-alt plane. I dont' HAVE to dive into the furball just because it's there. I can pick who I fight. BUT let's say I fly over 3 guys fighting, and there are no other con's in the area. Yes, I have to then dive down and fight. I can't just fly away. That would be avoiding.
The CM's can't watch every fight, and much of this is on the honor system. In the King of the Hill, you can't just fly around avoiding fights. In this past KOTH, BigMax, Fuzeman and myself watched a pilot go from fight to fight, never really commiting, and when chased, would drag his opponents into each other, and get them to fighting, and fly off. They never extended over 60 seconds (mostly) and would fly back and cherrypick the guys that WERE just chasing them and now in a fight. What they did was "technically" within the rules. They never extended over 60 seconds, and they would merge back and come within 1k of their opponent and then fly off again. Eventually, after most other players were dead, they would then start "fighting" and attack the remaining stragglers. What they did was totally legal, but I feel violated the spirit of the King of the Hill. Are they allowed to do this? Yes because it breaks no rules. It's a tad on the weak side, but legal. Generally this isn't an issue, because you got a ton of guys in the tower watching the fights in CMI mode, and teasing any player doing this. TRUST ME. I've done exactly what I just described (not for a whole round, or most rounds like the player we watched) but for a encounter or two, and I was razzed quite hard by the guys in the tower. I won that round btw, and you know what? As great as it felt to win that round, it didn't compare even a TINY bit to the rounds i've won where I took on all comers and beat 'em. When I won the KOTH USA last year, it was in a c202 with only one tiny mg. working, more of my plane damaged than not, and having killed 6-7 guys, mostly in 2-3 on 1' getting gang banged because I was a two timer. Now THAT was a round that felt AWESOME to win. Heck... i'm still talking about it.
I totally understand wanting to attack the biggest "threat", as I fly the same way. If I see (insert unskilled pilot name here) flying at me, and just a bit away I see say (insert skilled pilot name here) I would MUCH rather attack the greater threat. Unfortunatly that isn't how KOTH works. If me and (insert unskilled pilot name here) merge, the fight is on. I am not able to just fly past them and go for (insert skilled pilot name here). Well, you can actually. You have 60 seconds to do what you want. But you and (insert unskilled pilot name here) are fighting, and you HAVE to fight them. Like I said earlier in this thread, KOTH is not about avoiding all fights except the ones you want.
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OK, fine again, but I am going to keep pushing this point for all possible situations I can think of.
Let's say PILOTA is on my six at 1K. Within the 60 second time limit, I spot PILOTB and try to engage him. PILOTB is able to avoid my shot, so I go around long to attack him again, all the while, PILOTA is on my six, trying to get close enough to shoot at me.
Now, even though I am actively engaging with PILOTB and just checking my six making sure PILOTA isn't getting a good firing position, does the 60 second rule still apply? Technically, I would already be in a fight with PILOTB, so does PILOTA have a legitimate complaint if I don't turn to engage him directly?
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Personal attack
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Originally posted by Manedew
Such hypocrisy,
The above quote hit's it right on re: your "timid flying" arguments now.
Originally posted by WMLute
The CM's can't watch every fight, and much of this is on the honor system. In the King of the Hill, you can't just fly around avoiding fights. In this past KOTH, BigMax, Fuzeman and myself watched a pilot go from fight to fight, never really commiting, and when chased, would drag his opponents into each other, and get them to fighting, and fly off. They never extended over 60 seconds (mostly) and would fly back and cherrypick the guys that WERE just chasing them and now in a fight. What they did was "technically" within the rules. They never extended over 60 seconds, and they would merge back and come within 1k of their opponent and then fly off again. Eventually, after most other players were dead, they would then start "fighting" and attack the remaining stragglers. What they did was totally legal, but I feel violated the spirit of the King of the Hill. Are they allowed to do this? Yes because it breaks no rules. It's a tad on the weak side, but legal. Generally this isn't an issue, because you got a ton of guys in the tower watching the fights in CMI mode, and teasing any player doing this. TRUST ME. I've done exactly what I just described (not for a whole round, or most rounds like the player we watched) but for a encounter or two
good thing i didn't mentioned the player name the above quote was about or we woulda seen a real melt down.
As far as i'm concerned Mane, you've lost your "timid flyer" whaaa priv's. Give it a rest. You as bad about what you are complaining about as most if not any that I saw this past(s) KOTH.
Let's keep this constructive and not let petty squabbles sideline a good thread. If all you want is to pick a fight and babble, please do me a favor and don't post. If you feel you have something positive to add, by all means do so.
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Personal attack
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Originally posted by Manedew
Personal attack
and again I point out you are pretty much the worse about doing the very thing you whine over and over and over about. I always knew you drug everybody around, and committed when it was most advantagous (or forced to), and only then, but never until I had the luxury to watch you off and on for most a KOTH did I see just how far you take it. You are a prime example of exactly what skirting the rules means. I admitted to dragin' people around so they have to fight each other for a fight or two. I watched you do it round, after round, after round..... So let's not throw stones mr. lives in a glass house.
I have explained what is considered skirting a fight, and not. Not sure what you are having issues with. I explained it pretty clear. If clarification was needed, I gave it. I will go over it all again, but you could simple scroll up and read. Them's the rules. You will see them in the MOTD. Heck, you will see them in a sticky in this section of the bbs as soon as me and Fuzeman iron out the alt cap.
So unless you can put forth something constructive, consider yourself ignored henceforth until you are able to "add" to the discussion.
Does anybody have anything to add? An idea perhaps? Fuzeman, BigMax and myself are willing to consider a rules change, if the community wants it. We can change to say, once you see an icon, you have to fight. There IS no extending. If you see the icon, you HAVE to go at it until you see no other icons. No running, no extending, no dragging, period. Would this be more to everyones liking? It has been suggested, and i'm curious what everyone thinks.
ADD any other ideas you have please. The KOTH is for the players to enjoy, not the CM's (but we do have a hoot watching) and we want this to be as fun of a time as we can make it for the players.
Originally posted by Midnight
OK, fine again, but I am going to keep pushing this point for all possible situations I can think of.
Let's say PILOTA is on my six at 1K. Within the 60 second time limit, I spot PILOTB and try to engage him. PILOTB is able to avoid my shot, so I go around long to attack him again, all the while, PILOTA is on my six, trying to get close enough to shoot at me.
Now, even though I am actively engaging with PILOTB and just checking my six making sure PILOTA isn't getting a good firing position, does the 60 second rule still apply? Technically, I would already be in a fight with PILOTB, so does PILOTA have a legitimate complaint if I don't turn to engage him directly?
sorry i got sidetracked Midnight. To answer your question, if PA merges with you, and you go pick a fight with PB, you are "IN" a fight. You don't have to merge back and fight with PA. You can let 'em blaze away on your six as long as you like while you are fighting with PB. The 60sec rule is about avoiding a fight. If you are "IN" a fight, that's not avoiding. The only clarification I would make is if it takes you more than 60 sec. to start "fighting" with PB you do have to turn and merge with PA.
I personally have done what you suggested many times. I have been in a fight with a new guy, and spotted a real threat going for the easy pick. I have ignored the guy I was originally fighting with until I had dealt with the "threat". I let them stay behind me, guns a blazing. Sometimes they got me, some times they didn't, and after I killed the "threat" I would then reverse and kill the new pilot (hopefully). Doing this gives all the advantages to the new pilot on your 6, but sure, if you want, you can choose to do this. I myself have. You are not avoiding a fight if you are IN a fight.
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You still fail to see my behavior in inspired by yours??
You would fly like this THEN whine to max about 60 seconds?!?!?
figure out why I wanted the rules claified yet?
Well if you and others are going to fly like that why shouldn't I?
If you don't your apperently required to turn for higher cons who whine to the CM ???
While you and others coast around hugging alt and 'skirting the fight'
is it any wonder I point out your crazy interpretation of the rules by flying by them?
I would think you'd have some of this figured out.... guess not
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Originally posted by Manedew
Such hypocrisy,
oh my :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Manedew
You still fail to see my behavior in inspired by yours??
You would fly like this THEN whine to max about 60 seconds?!?!?
figure out why I wanted the rules claified yet?
Well if you and others are going to fly like that why shouldn't I?
If you don't your apperently required to turn for higher cons who whine to the CM ???
While you and others coast around hugging alt and 'skirting the fight'
is it any wonder I point out your crazy interpretation of the rules by flying by them?
I would think you'd have some of this figured out.... guess not
Oh, I UNDERSTAND what you are trying to justify; it just doesn't hold water for many reasons.
You have flown as you do now for every koth I have flown with you. It is your "style". You really have not changed it that much, if at all, but NOW you are trying to justify it and say it's our/my fault. (Typical you)
You are trying to break, or stretch the rules to prove a point. My question would be to whom? And whatever for? You were once put in a position to reverse or "break" the rules. You choose to break the rules, and got booted from the game. Ever since then, you have gone out of your way to push the envelope as far as you can about the rules. Again, whom are you trying to prove a point to? Me? Heck, I know your wrong. The CM that was in charge? He said your wrong as well. The community? How would flying in a KOTH and stretching the rules as far as you can go prove anything to the community except that you’re acting like a spoiled child throwing a fit?
Your behavior is inspired by mine?? Pretty cool I have that much control over you, and how you act. So if I fly exactly the way you want me to you would change how you fly? I think not. This is just a typical "ManeTMP" response where everything is "their" fault, and of course not yours. How could we possibly hold you at fault for what you say, how you fly, how you interact with people? Don't we understand that WE are making you do it? It's our fault of course. You are rude and disruptive because everybody else makes you. (you said that to me several times in our last "talk" in the KOTH before last.) WE cause you to act the way you do. (sigh) I just wonder if you understand just how silly that sounds (is).
Bottom-line that is a bunk.
You decide how to fly.
You decide to break/skirt the rules.
You decide what words come out of your mouth, and what you type.
You.
Not me, not the "community"
YOU do.
The WHOLE reason you have complained about the 60 second rule is that it is somewhat contrary to your fighting style. Somebody approaches you with alt/e, you want to be able to extend, level out the E states, and get them to fight your fight. With the 60 second rule, you are unable to do so to the extent you want and you don't like it. Well, the KOTH is designed not just for ManeTMP and his style of fighting, but for all types. B/Z guys don't like the alt cap. Guys like you don't like the 60 sec. policy. We can't please everybody, so the current rules we have in place are designed to try and reach a good balance for everyone.
This is what gets me about you. Some pilots have to use every advantage they have to win a fight. It is their skill level, and/or flying style. When they approach you, and have fought you at all before, they will know that jumping in and knife fighting you is suicide. They can't win fighting your fight. So they don't fly the way you want them to. And MAN do you complain. They are alt huggers, timid, skilless (insert typical ManeTMP rude remark here). What you fail to understand ( I actually think you do, you just like to complain and, and throw fits) is it is where they are at in the learning curve. Not many people can t/b with you and win. So if they want to shoot you down, they are not going to. How is that hard to understand? If they want to beat you, they need every advantage they can get. You then get upset when they don't fly the way you want them to, and use those advantages to beat you. Just drives ya' crazy.
Speaking of crazy, the only "crazy" interpretations of the rules that I see are yours. BigMax told you you were incorrect. HE made the rules. Now I am going to make the rules (Fuzeman the community and me) and I say your wrong. Guess what? That is the bottom line. I have clarified what the rules are. I have EXPLICITLY done so. THEY are the rules. You don't like them? Don't fly KOTH, because in KOTH, you have to fly by the rules as they have been stated, and restated to you. EVERYBODY does. You are not the only one held to the rules, so don't act like you are. The CM's will enforce the rules, and each and every player is expected to abide by them. I for one would call anybody on a broken rule. Not just you, anybody. My job is to make sure everybody follows the rules and has a great time. It is not (contrary to your opinion) to sit in the tower and ruin ManeTMP's flying experience. I don't have a grudge. My job is to be impartial, and I will be impartial, regardless of my personal opinions.
Someone attacks you with alt/e and you go running away, after 60 seconds you have to turn. THAT's the rule. I don't care if you don't like it; you have to abide by it. EVERYBODY does. Don't like the rules? Suggest a new one. You have complained over and over about this rule, but have as of yet made one suggestion about what would be better. Until a better rule is brought forth and agreed upon, the ones in place are what we are going to use.
(geeez... and here I said I wouldn't reply. WTG! you got me to react. Unfort. as a CM for KOTH, I sorta HAVE to react. Sorta my job now. I will enforce the rules. I will do it by the book. Try me. You'll see)
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This event has always been one which has exuded class. The players always had something good to say about the fights afterwards and everyone has had fun.
It is a bit of a disappointment to see this thread in here. The rules are the rules. Make suggestions, if you like, but respect the people who are giving thier free time to run this event folks.
Rules are not for voting on. They can be discussed openly. The CM's have the final say. That is not going to change. If you think you can run this even better, then fill out a CM application.
If you do not want to run the event, but would like to discuss it, then do so.
It is not acceptable, under any circumstances, for players to bad-mouth other players. There is nothing to be gained from it. Nothing. If you cannot properly discuss, then leave. If you think proper discussion is about being derogatory to other players, then you are choosing to not be a part of this forum.
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Heh.. you get busy during a day and miss all the good stuff... Skuzzy edited out some stuff before I got to read the last replies.
Anyway, I see all the points given about the 60 second rule. I guess I still don't like it to be in effect with more than 2 players still in the arena, and would LIKE to see a rule change, I will fly by the rules when I fly in KOTH.
Thanks for the replies Lute.
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Whew...glad that's over...for now
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But the thread is still alive.
Earlier in the thread, I threw out an idea being discussed. It was probably lost in the mix. That being once you see an enemy icon, you have to fight. There would be no extending, there is no 60sec. rule, you fight until you see no more icon's, then go fly to the closest one, and fight some more.
Opinions?
I still would like to hear from everybody on what they think.
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As much as I love the fights...I have to say NO to that one.
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thats an interesting idea lute, not very practical, but interesting
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Lute, I dont much like it either. Once you are forced to engage without recourse to re-positioning, or even just avoiding one to fight another equally/nearly equally close enemy, every pilot without alt or e will be at a disadvantage and without choices. The main thing i always loved about KOTH was the choices....so many choices, so many ways to die. ;)
Really though, I have ignored higher planes to join a "conga line" in the hope of racking up a couple with one pass rather than die by trying to get up to a loner. Much prefferable to join the line and try to get the high flyer to join too....and blow his alt in the meantime. I see no reason to engage at a disadvantage when there is a fight right in front of me with more even odds. And if the guy above me is known to be able to kick my hiney without breakin a sweat, then I really do not want to have to climb to him. Hope this is not taken as an inclination to avoid all fights, just as a hope that given a choice I am allowed to make one.
Been a while since I have flown in one of these, but I always enjoyed it. Now it seems some of the fun may have been sapped out of it by a few people who are only in it for the "win". If you want your name up in lights....buy yerself a neon sign.
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Easy solution Lute,
Fuel burn to 3, that way they best find a fight in 10 min or fall down.
:)
(Ok, I was only kidding...)
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Nice flank you made there Skuzzy!
I guess we all know by now ManeTMP & Lute have an ongoing Rivalry, I see in my view of both of them having similar flying styles.
I see ManeTMP express fights as follows: some he says Good Fight, GK, or Salutes
some he calls: lucky shot, or something
then some he calls: you fly like a dweeb...
outside of the one moment I witnessed ManeTMP get booted, I see both BigMax & ManeTMP being right! the whole situation developed before BigMax could switch from viewing one fight to the fight in question, and ManeTMP let his self get caught up in the discussion and extended beyond the limit.
ManeTMP is a awesome opponent to fight, Lute , Jish, Fuzeman, Stang, Blu315 etc etc etc... and any of them will fight you regardless of who has the upperhand, if they are at a disadvantage they work it the best they can to gain an edge, and if they are in the catbird seat they clean your clock!
we all have our on unique chracter of the way we present ourselves, just some people are able to bring the worst part of it out in others at given times.
Now, Lute, your idea/theory of having to clear out the area you are in of all planes is an interesting one? the thing is I thought that is what KOTH has always been about to begin with, and is how I normally have flown the events.
and my most memorable fight ever was against ManeTMP in one of them slow carbuerated planes , no matter win or lose that was an intense palm sweating fight. The reason I am making this post is to hope newcomers do not judge any player by what comes out on the boards, wait til you get to know the individual players of the KOTH or in any arena before laying judgment ( and/or your opinion of anyone)!
ok, I am done jibber jabbing
~S~
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
This event has always been one which has exuded class. The players always had something good to say about the fights afterwards and everyone has had fun.
It is a bit of a disappointment to see this thread in here. The rules are the rules. Make suggestions, if you like, but respect the people who are giving thier free time to run this event folks.
Rules are not for voting on. They can be discussed openly. The CM's have the final say. That is not going to change. If you think you can run this even better, then fill out a CM application.
If you do not want to run the event, but would like to discuss it, then do so.
It is not acceptable, under any circumstances, for players to bad-mouth other players. There is nothing to be gained from it. Nothing. If you cannot properly discuss, then leave. If you think proper discussion is about being derogatory to other players, then you are choosing to not be a part of this forum.
I guess 'thickskulled' was too much? Thought it was mostly facts and questions?
to explain:
When I keep asking for clarification on the rules and get babbling 'answers' , includeing that I cry like a little girl (a sexist statement comeing from a CM?) I maybe try to reask adding 'thickskulled' because I can't understand why answering is so hard. Maybe AH's short text buffer throws my typeing into hopeless babble. Maybe this causes them to not understand my confusion.
For answers I'd get ridicule..... from my gonzo attitude no doubt (I'd often put questions in sarcastic jab's towards Lute, maybe a bad idea).... but Max/Lute have not been flawless saints. My questions got answered with 'YOUR WRONG'. I know I'm wrong, you told me ....but can you understand I'm trying to understand the CM's interpretation of the rules. 2 people can read the same simple rules and apply much diffrant logic to it. 'YOUR WRONG' doesn't help me understand. Understand?
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SCSI- So is this attacking? I'm trying to explain the situation from my POV and to understand rules? Not sure what your rules mean.... is meantioning thier comments considered attacking? I don't have anythign aginst Lute or Max, but felt a need to explain.
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Maybe I should avoid the facts and perceptions that lead me here but I still have questions:
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-If you have a con higher than you and one lower in another direction and higher con wants to fight do you have to turn for him? Can you dive away and attack lower con? Does haveing two kills affect this in anyway?
Lute brings up a similar situation..... months later I still don't understand. I'm not sitting here demanding rules be changed, I'm asking.
-What does skirting the fight mean?
-What does picking your fights mean? You've said this is valid tactic.... but what are the limits .. when do you have to engauge ? What if you can see the dots of another fight that you find more of a risk? Can you head to that fight ... If you have altitude? .. if you dive low ? if con does or doesn't chase?
-If CM hesitates to answer during a fight what is a player to do? Should the player defualt to fighting the complaining plane, or ignore CM requests until CM says something? CM's are sometimes busy etc .... so what should we do in meantime if we are unclear on rules?
It's hard to infer such details from simple rules. You tell me I'm wrong, great! Can you teach me why? Or you can just tell me to shutup already? But I think more are confused than just me.
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Just for you ManeTMP. Basically everything you asked was covered already, but with such a massive wall o' text in some of these posts, I will make it easier for everyone.
If you have a con higher than you and one lower in another direction and higher con wants to fight do you have to turn for him? Can you dive away and attack lower con?
(Using PA for pilot A and PB for pilot B)
If PA (with alt con) merges with you, and you go pick a fight with PB (low con), you are "IN" a fight. You don't have to merge back and fight with PA. You can let 'em blaze away on your six as long as you like while you are fighting with PB. The 60sec rule is about avoiding a fight. If you are "IN" a fight, that's not avoiding. The only clarification I would make is if it takes you more than 60 sec. to start "fighting" with PB you do have to turn and merge with PA.
I would consider a con w/ alt diving in at me a merge. Not all merges are going to be nose to nose. So if the higher con wants to dive in at you, that is now being in a fight, and you have 60 seconds to position yourself how ever you want, but then you have to turn and merge. And, as long as you pas within' a 1000' of said enemy, you just reset the 60sec. clock.
Does haveing two kills affect this in anyway?
Originally posted by BigMax
Special rules for KoTH 2-timers (stuff we have been doing for years, but need to put into writing)
Dog piling, ganging up on the two-timer is allowed and should not be interpretted as winging. But this only applies to 2-timers. And players focussed on a 2-timer should be aware that they are not given any special consideration and can be attacked by any opportunistic player.
60 second rules still apply - the "rabbit" must reverse after a attempting to run/extend for 60 seconds... no matter the odds.
What does skirting the fight mean?
BigMax, Fuzeman and myself watched a pilot go from fight to fight, never really commiting, and when chased, would drag his opponents into each other, and get them to fighting, and fly off. They never extended over 60 seconds (mostly) and would fly back and cherrypick the guys that WERE just chasing them and now in a fight. Eventually, after most other players were dead, they would then start "fighting" and attack the remaining stragglers.
I consider this borderline skirting, legal if but barely.
TRUE skirting is avoiding period. Not getting into fights. Flying towards con's, then going right on past. Not being nose on towards a con, and flying away from the action. Basically, not being in a fight, or not heading to a fight. THAT is skirting.
I just wanted to clarify the two. First is legal (barely) 2nd is not.
What does picking your fights mean?
Let's say you are flying around, and see 3 con's on the deck fighting in icon range, and in the distance you see a co-alt dot heading your way. You can pick which to attack. You dont' HAVE to dive in and mix it up with the 3 guys on the deck if you see a con w/ alt heading your way in the distance. You can choose to dive in, or you can choose to keep alt and attack the incoming con. That is picking your fights. In both cases, diving in, or heading to the other con, you are on the way to a fight and not avoiding. If said con w/ alt if not flying toward you, but away, you wouldn't be heading to a fight, but skirting one at that point.
If you merge with someone, and they reverse, and you don't, you are in a fight at that point. They reversed, that is a merge. Fight is on. Just becaue you have E and are pulling away, or if you dive out and pull away, that doesn't mean you are not still in a fight. If you see in the distance enemies that you perceive as a bigger threat, you have 60 seconds to get to them and start fighting. If you can't do it within 60 seconds, you have to reverse. If you can make it to the perceived threat in 60 sec. then you are IN a fight and not breaking any rules, you just are in a fight with a differnt enemy at that point, with original guy closing in on you probably going for the easy pick.
If both of you extend, and nobody makes a move, you are not in a fight. There was no merge, you are both free to head towards the nearest fight, or perceived threat. But you have to be heading to a fight.
If CM hesitates to answer during a fight what is a player to do? Should the player defualt to fighting the complaining plane, or ignore CM requests until CM says something? CM's are sometimes busy etc .... so what should we do in meantime if we are unclear on rules?
Good question. The CM is not able to watch all fights at all times, or even sometimes the CM is up and fighting with everybody. Tough one to answer because you bring up a massive amount of variables. I would say use the ole' common sense. Try to continue the fight within the rules. If they are running, breaking alt cap, winging, or any of the 'set' rules we all pretty much know it, and that needs to be brought to the CM's attention immediatly. If the CM is busy, try to keep going with the fight following the rules as you best understand them. It is not a perfect system. Sometimes we have to clarify something after the fact. But I know Fuzeman and myself will do the best we can to make sure it is 100% fair to all players, and try to keep tabs on everything.
We just have to honor the spirit of KOTH and follow the rules. Most people know if they are running, skirting, winging, broke the alt cap etc, etc... I expect all KOTH participants fly with respct and honor, and folloing the set rules.
Here are some good general behaviour rules that BigMax poasted.
What is "sportsmanlike"?
- Respecting "No Joy" calls
- EFing when you went over the ALT CAP, even if noone called you on it.
- Allowing adequate seperation
- A hearty "S" to victor or vanquished
What is NOT "sportsmanlike"?
- Skirting fights
- Running/Refusing to engage
- Delivering disparaging remarks to/about other players
- knowingly viloating the rules
- Firing guns after your plane has received terminal damage
- Winging
- grudges
If you need a question answered, please ask. I you Mane for posting some great questions, and adding to the discussion. Your asking these things will help clear it up for everybody, so there is less confusion. Having not slept for 24hours, and being exhaused, this post is probably a bit disjioned. I will strive to have a STICKY set up in the forum that clearly answers most all the basic quiestions about the KOTH rules.
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As has been metioned, CMs only have two eyes and I know mine can only point in one direction at a time. Maybe we should hire Marty Feldman and add him to the CM list.
A point to remember with Pilot A high, Pilot B low and you in the middle. Pilots A and B may not see each others icon.
No matter which way you engage one of them the other may think you're running.
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Hmmmm
Busy week for me..., didn't get to see the editted material. I'm sure it was good.
Without digression and in response:
YES!,
WMLute and Fuzeman are taking over KoTH & EKoTH. Both are players that have made KoTH what it is today. They love it as I do. Additionally, they have very contrasting fighting styles, which I see as advantageous to the event - two heads are better than one and knowing that they are of dissimilar fighting phylosophies means that both main styles will be well represented. Lastly, they are both mature and intelligent. I know KoTH will be in good hands.
Per ALL the aforementioned questions and comments,
I believe Lute has answered all of them in turn and they really don't need to be rehashed. The players should know that Fuze, Lute, and I are in a detailed discussion of exactly how we want to make sense out of all this information. Exactly what is the "best" way to clarify the rules so-as to make them as clear as possible for the players, and easily enforceable by the hosting CM. Bear with us, changes are coming.
ManeTMP,
My comments about your most recent post... You recurrently say that we don't explain, I do recall spending more than an hour discussing "issues" with you after one KoTH , and have taken time on several occasions to "clarify" others. I just disagree with your viewpoint - which is still the case.
In any event, disparaging comments and rules violations will get you muted or ejected. Your negativity in the game affects the other guys playing the game, which I let get out of hand once... I refuse to let it be an issue any more. I muted you last week for starting it up... Your opinions belong here - in some sort of constructive fashion - not in the SEA during an event.
Like I have told you on several occasions, you are one of, if not "the" best player that frequents KoTH. You are looked up to by many of the lesser skilled players, and respected by the ones similar in skill level to your own. But the way you handle yourself in the arenas really needs work...
~S~ to all, thank you Lute for responding in my absence...
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Originally posted by WMLute
But the thread is still alive.
Earlier in the thread, I threw out an idea being discussed. It was probably lost in the mix. That being once you see an enemy icon, you have to fight. There would be no extending, there is no 60sec. rule, you fight until you see no more icon's, then go fly to the closest one, and fight some more.
Opinions?
I still would like to hear from everybody on what they think.
I love this idea. I flew in KOTH for the the 1st 4 months of my AH career(which hasn't been long). In that short amount of time I noticed with every new KOTH people kept getting more and more timid. They'd dive away at the slightest sign of losing advantage or try to draw you into a crowd to make you break off. Heck, I even had a few HO attempts off the 1st merge. I loved the first 1 or 2 I attended but after that, to me, it quickly lost it's charm. I think the above idea would be great. I've always thought of KOTH as a test of your ability in ACMs as well as SA. I just use to enjoy mixing it up with some of the best in the game and seeing how well I did. Now it seems sorta like the MA, with everyone worried about Alt and not wanting to fight someone higher than them. I'm not saying you should fly stupidly and blow your advantages. But if the time comes where you're in trouble, just fight and do your best, it's only a game folker!;)
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Now, Lute, your idea/theory of having to clear out the area you are in of all planes is an interesting one? the thing is I thought that is what KOTH has always been about to begin with, and is how I normally have flown the events.
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Here is my hesitation on the "have to fight enemies in icon range" issue.
One thing that makes the KOTH great is flexability. I don't want to see the events rules so rigid, that we are forcing players to fight a certain style, or way.
I like the fact that we have all differant styles of fighting. I enjoy the different and contrasting styles of various players, and that is what the KOTH Team is trying to preserve/support. My opinion is LESS IS MORE as far as rules are concerned. I don't want to have to type 10 wall o' text posts to explain to a player the rule system. Needs to be easy.
Currently the KOTH team has made two changes to the rules. The 6k alt cap (which we like) and we added "either be in a fight, or heading to a fight at all times" in the MOTD/Rules. So far, going by EKOTH it worked out great. We only had one "issue" in the whole time it was flown.
We are kicking around changing the 60 sec rule, and the KOTH Team will post about that soon.
Rest assured that we want the King of the Hill to stay about as close to how it has been that past years BigMax has hosted it. It's just now BigMax has two other people to kick around ideas with, and we are tweaking some that needed tweaking.