Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: R4M on June 06, 2001, 07:30:00 PM
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One name, two lessons:
Jose Joaquin Martinez is the name.
The two lessons are
1-In the USA when you dont have a buck you get sentenced to death with such equivocal "proofs" that they would be laughable, if it wasnt so shameful.But if you can pay 600000$ to a lawyer then you get free. So much for the equality of citizens in front of the Justice.
2-Had Martinez's parents not been able to pay the expensive Lawyer costs, he would be now toasted, buried, for a crime he had not committed. BTW the money was not from their parents, but collected in a public collect here in spain. Needless to say I took part in the collect.
I hope you learn both lessons, and fast. I dont wanna know how many men have been toasted alive because they could not afford paying an expensive lawyer.
[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Didn't you quit for good this time?
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Didn't you quit for good this time?
yes, I cancelled my AH account. That does forbid me to post in this BBS?. Even in the O'topic forum?.
I think not. In any case if that is all you have to say regarding this topic, then it is sad.
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DjV that one was most idiotic answer I've seen for a while.
Wasn't it you who were concerned about this so called community?
Looks like all you guys can do is picking other players. Well thats nothing new.
So keep up posting watermelon but please do not post those threads again where you ask ppl to behave nicely.
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Yup, still in favor of the death penalty.
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Methinks that perhaps you should put a bit more thought into this one.
Is the death penalty the problem ... or are the courts/leagle system the problem.
We also have Charles Manson wasting air in prison.
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So what happened in that Martinez case ?
I tried to find some info from N.Y.Times but all I found was McVeigh case.
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Here's the brief.
Supreme Court of Florida
____________
No. SC90952
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JOAQUIN J. MARTINEZ,
Appellant,
vs.
STATE OF FLORIDA,
Appellee.
[June 15, 2000]
PER CURIAM.
Joaquin J. Martinez appeals his convictions of armed burglary, two counts of
first-degree murder, and sentence of death. We have jurisdiction. See art. V, §
3(b)(1), Fla. Const.
FACTS
http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/flsupct/sc90952/op-sc90952.pdf (http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/flsupct/sc90952/op-sc90952.pdf)
Read it and evaluate it for yourself; then see what you think.
This thing is dated June 2000. The result was "Accordingly, for the reasons stated in this opinion, we reverse Martinez's convictions, vacate his sentences, and remand for a new trial."
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play on online ;) but it appears to me in reading it that the reversal is based primarily on this:
"The trial court ruled that the audio-video tape could be played for the jury and
that the State could provide jurors with the copies of the written transcript. The jurors
were allowed to read the thirty-three-page transcript as an unadmitted court exhibit while prosecutors played the surveillance tape to the jurors."
From what I gather, the Supremes found the use of the unadmitted transcript a rather LARGE "No-No".
Didn't find anything on a "new trial" so far. It could be over or not yet started.
[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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DjV that one was most idiotic answer I've seen for a while.
Wasn't it you who were concerned about this so called community?
Yes it was.. and is.
I always like to see little boys stomp off in a huff because they aren't getting their way and then still insist that they are a part of it all.
I also like the way you always come to their rescue you noble steed.
As for the rest of it... well... its pretty much BS anyways. How this case can serve as any kind of "the death penalty is unjust" example is ludicrus. More of a "money can buy your way out of it" example.
AKDejaVu
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Dejavu, I'm sure that all those people posting in AGW when they have their WB account closed since literally years, do not receive such a stupid answer as I got from you.
I have not seen a similar answer in this BBS to any Wilbus' or Hazed's or anyone else who has quitted AH's post. Happens that you dont like me and you have to spit your crap on my and my posts. Its Ok. just say it so instead of hiding your real motives.
Originally posted by MrBill:
Methinks that perhaps you should put a bit more thought into this one.
Is the death penalty the problem ... or are the courts/leagle system the problem.
We also have Charles Manson wasting air in prison.
This is a fair comment, but I think that both are screwed.
1-the courts/legal system is clearly screwed. If a man gets a penalty of death with such equivocal (laughable) proofs presented in the trials (in both trials the same proofs were used), then there is something really WRONG with the current legal system.
2-The penalty of death just makes things worse. A man, like Martinez, gets a penalty of death being innocent and as I said, had his family not been able to pay a good lawyer now he would be roasted and buried.
In short, Death penalty makes the situation worse. Unfair trials with unfair prison penalties are bad, but at least there is a chance you'll get out of prison after some years when something or someone proofs your innocence. IF the penalty is death, then the proof better arrives soon enough or it will be too late...forever.
3-It is clear that the people are not equal in a court of justice. This is true everywhere, but the proofs of that trial (the video where "supossedly" -in fact you can't hear anything in that video- Martinez answers "yes" to his wife) were SO screwed and equivocal that I cant understand HOW even the most inutil,cheap lawyer did not achieve martinez's freedom since the start.
All in all my point is based more in the fact that Death Penalty is impossible to remediate once applied; and that given the HOLE difference between expensive and cheap lawyers, I'm sure that there have been many innocents roasted last years in the USA for crimes they had not committed.
Is my opinion that this is food for thought.
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one last thing, dont read in my post such thing as a slam to the justice in the USA. I am slamming justice almost everywher.
What I DO intend is to give a slam to the Death Penalty.
In USA you get this kind of unfair trials, in spain, a man who has killed his wife with a knife, hitting her 25 times gets a lowering of his penalty because he "was raged", or the policeman who abused a 13 year old girld gets free because the girl "already had sexual experience" (¿?!!!!!) . And I am sure that both trials would've been different with different, nore expensive lawyers
Justice is crappy almost everywhere, but at least here you dont go to the Electrical Chair for a crime you havent committed. In the US you do...and that is my point.
[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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Dejavu, I'm sure that all those people posting in AGW when they have their WB account closed since literally years, do not receive such a stupid answer as I got from you.
I bet you are right. The AGW board is: http://agw.dogfighter.com (http://agw.dogfighter.com) . Please... feel free to make that your new home so you can tell them how much better it is at other boards.
And I'm sure they are real supportive to anyone that's quit Warbirds 4 times all the while citing how much better other games are and how crappy theirs is. I highly suggest you give that community a try.
Justice is crappy almost everywhere, but at least here you dont go to the Electrical Chair for a crime you havent committed. In the US you do...and that is my point.
1. Show a link with evidence that this person did not commit the crime. The one Toad showed gave no such indication. Its called a technicality... meaning they did it, but something was handled wrong at the trial.
2. Life imprisonment for someone wrongly commited of a crime is somehow better than the death penalty?
I am all for the death penalty. What I am not for is the political games played around it and around major convictions in general. This happens when your prosecutors are elected officials more concerned about giving the voters what they want than justice.
...And... this guy deserves it.
AKDejaVu
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Hmmm... I side with dejavu here - the guy has not been found not guilty, he's just got a good (expensive and partly paid for by RAM who can't find no casharoonies to pay AH bill... ;)) defence lawyer who got him off on technicality. You call this justice? :rolleyes:
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the tape that convicted him the first time was banded as evidence the second time. Does this make him not guilty?? I don't think so, just another lawyer who needs a pair of cement shoes and swimming lessons, same pair as timmy's lawyers should be wearing.
I am not for lethal injection or electrocution, I am for STONING them to death on PPV...Yeah we'd get a few wrong, but the lives saved through decreased crime would be worth the cost.
Eagler
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[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: straffo ]
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DejaVu,
This is an open board. HTC paid account is not required to access it, there is no policy stating who can post here and no one appointed you a guardian.
The only thing a member of the community can do regardless other people posting is politely suggest a different topic which is clearly not the case here - this is the O'Club.
Ram started a conversation here and invited everyone to share their thoughts on the subject. If you do not want to talk to him, you should have ignored his post.
It is grossly impolite on your part to barge in and try to derail a conversation.
Why don't you just set him to ignore and spare us your petty bickering.
miko
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straffo
Relax, this is just a BBS not making law here-
good try at English better than my French :)
The guy sounds guilty to me, let loose on a technicality. Most defense lawyers aren't worth the $500 pair of shoes they strut around in.
Eagler
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Originally posted by Eagler:
straffo
Relax, this is just a BBS not making law here-
good try at English better than my French :)
The guy sounds guilty to me, let loose on a technicality. Most defense lawyers aren't worth the $500 pair of shoes they strut around in.
Eagler
yep I own you an apology I should not post after having an hard discution at work :(
Btw it's not english it's the kind of
FrenGlish I'm ashamed to use :D
And it won't change my position on death penalty : I'm against .I prefer having ten free criminal than having one innocent killed by the law :(
ps : I'll delete my *)=*ù$^ previous post .
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Guys,
From the point of view of justice, justice cannot be perfect because it is based on people and people are not perfect. Even if we were, jurors often act on incomplete information - basically geussing.
From the morale point of view, a person who suffered a loss or hurt because of crime is often not as objective and detached as those who would "rather have many criminals go unpunished then have one innocent suffer". Plenty of innocents suffer daily at the hands of the criminals and that does not raise any moral uproar. People with such views are eligible voters of society, hence the current system.
From the engineering point of view, society is a system and every system known to man is operatin with a certain degree of efficiency. So a percentage of waste is expected. In fact it is tolerated because the system is supposed to provide some benefits.
Here is how it works - it saves many innocents from hurt at the expence of some inocents (including families of prosecuted criminals) getting hurt. As long as the tradeof is favorable, the system is stable.
Where is the morality, you ask - nowhere.
You could ask me if I personally like a chance to be executed by mistake in return for criminals being executed.
I say yes because:
1. If I am accused of capital crime by mistake and not executed, it does not mean that I will go free, but that I will go to jail for life. For me the difference is very slight - my life is still lost. I would actually prefer to die.
2. I get into car every day and risk my life for the convenience of gettong places fast. We can predict very accurately how many people will die every year because of our use of cars, planes, antibiotics, electricity, tall buildings, farm machinery, healing drugs and treatments.
There is nothing free in this world for us - innocent people, including justice.
miko
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Gave you 5 stars on that one Miko :)
Eagler
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Just a few passages from the origional law..
Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall surely be put to death
Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death
Exodus 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
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RAM, I think the point you're accidentally making here, is that justice is crappy because this guy might get off on a technicality, and that would be the injustice.
Iow a guilty man was almost convicted.
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I've always wondered why tv-series like "Law & Order", "LA-Law" and others like those were/are so popular in States ?
Maybe your courts just are so laughable ?
Oh yes, from N.Y.Times:
3 billion dollars for smoker because man got a cancer from cigarettes?
;)
[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Staga ]
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Well, McVeigh is going to get his. That thought comforts me a bit.
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Well, McVeigh is going to get his. That thought comforts me a bit.
I think the same thing... every morning I drop my wife off at the Federal Building.
AKDejaVu
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Good thread guys!
RAM
you be the judge, this is a actual happening from the late 60's
This guy kills a little girl, the prosecuters case is weak (a lot of evidence is disallowed for various reasons) so they plea bargain it down to man slaughter.
parole board lets the guy out and he is paroled to a different state where he is arrested for killing 2 girls on a beach.
For some reason, known only to god, the judge lets the guy out on bail until the trial.
Ta Daa, the guy splits, (big surprise) ;)
We next find him, a couple days later, in a third state where he is caught, by the police, red handed (so to speak) stabbing a woman on her front lawn as she tried to get away while he killed her husband and, I think it was two sons, inside their home. A daughter had called 911 from a phone upstairs, she was the only member of the family to survive.
The jury recommends the death penalty but this state allows the judge to make the final determination.
How would you rule?
After you reply I'll post what eventually happened.
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Guys, don't you have TV there in the USA?
That guy was declared yesterday NOT GUILTY by a jury in a new trial. There was no physical evidence, no fingerprints, no reasons,no real proof that he even knew the victims, the prosecutor did not brought his main witness out of fear of being ridiculed, and the only one he could get to accuse was later contradicted by her own sister (a cop btw). And the guy would have been fried without the money raised by his parents. Now he is prolly on a plane heading home.
Pathetical note:
His ex-wife, who brought police onto him out of jealousy, might be suing him for failing to pay her the monthly fee for their children's feeding and education while he was in the death row. I bet she gets on with it....
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ROFLMAO !
Uhh... Nice law system you got there. First death penalty and then prosecutors don't even have any waterproof evidences :D
Good thing they didn't had time to BBQ that guy don't you think?
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Wait a minute miko... your saying that because there's good chance of you dying anyway, what does it matter if you get killed in a car crash or by lethal injection? WTF?
My view on the death penalty... I have a few main reasons for opposing it:
First of all, the system is so far from being "just" that it's disgusting. I know that mistakes will always be made, but as it is it's ridiculous.
Second has to do with my particular sect of Christianity and our collective stance on the issue. The reason given is that any person is a potential messenger of God, and should not be put to death, regardless of how misguided they seem at the time. Personally, I don't like this explanation, but to each his own.
My take: Invoking the death penalty is taking a life. Period. It is not anyone's right to take another's life, in any circumstances IMO. The instant you kill someone, in retribution for a crime, you are committing a crime. Everyone involved, the prosecutors, angry family members, and others who pushed for a death penalty, the judge that ordered the sentence - all of them are killers. This does not mean that they are bad people, and that retribution is undeserved. But it doesn't change the fact they were involved in the taking of the life of a fellow human being.
For those of you that take your morals from the Bible, a source I don't defer to very much at all, here's one of the Ten Commandments: Thou shalt not kill. I add another word to the end of that one, myself. "Ever."
Thou shalt not kill. Ever.
-ispar
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Guess I'm feeling frisky on this topic ;)
Please take nothing from the following as a personal attack.
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"Wait a minute miko... your saying that because there's good chance of you dying anyway, what does it matter if you get killed in a car crash or by lethal injection? WTF?"
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In case anyone is uninformed ... the minute anyone/thing takes a first breath they/it begins to die. The truest statement on the human condition I ever heard was
"Don't take life to seriously ... you can't get out of it alive no matter what you do"
It is also true that what a person does in the in-betweens that can elongate or shorten their own individual stay.
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"For those of you that take your morals from the Bible, a source I don't defer to very much at all, here's one of the Ten
Commandments: Thou shalt not kill. I add another word to the end of that one, myself.
"Ever."
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I have never read that in any bible? In all the versions I HAVE read the quote is
"thou shalt not murder"
I really can't see "god" putting a species on earth that MUST eat to survive and then commanding them not to kill anything! :eek:
Of course if we are rewriting history I guess the bible qualifys.
To those who are of a moral Christian religious persuasion opposed to the DP.
Where would Christianity be if Christ got 1 to 5 with time off for good behavior? :D
[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: MrBill ]
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Ammo, I gotta hand it to ya, some of the quotes that are in the bible are downright powerful :).
Proverbs 11 has one of me favs:
A kindhearted woman gains respect, but ruthless men gain only wealth.
I take it you've found the online bible at http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible)
It's excellent, particularly for a disbeliever like me :)
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Originally posted by MrBill:
"For those of you that take your morals from the Bible, a source I don't defer to very much at all, here's one of the Ten
Commandments: Thou shalt not kill. I add another word to the end of that one, myself.
"Ever."
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I have never read that in any bible? In all the versions I HAVE read the quote is
"thou shalt not murder"
I really can't see "god" putting a species on earth that MUST eat to survive and then commanding them not to kill anything! :eek:
Of course if we are rewriting history I guess the bible qualifys.
To those who are of a moral Christian religious persuasion opposed to the DP.
Where would Christianity be if Christ got 1 to 5 with time off for good behavior? :D
[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: MrBill ]
Well, we are both equally uninformed then. I have never read a bible in which that particular commandment read "murder."
And no, I don't expect that we can live and not kill anything. Hell, I'm not exactly a vegetarian, myself. But when it comes to our fellow human beings, killing should be avoided at any cost - so long as that is not greater than what is being bought. In other words... Kosovo did not have to be fought. But would it have been better to allow "ethnic cleansing" to continue? This is an important question.
So the best way to deal with these scum is to lock them up and never let them see the light of day, IMO. That can be a worse sentence anyway.
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Off with their heads!!!!
:)
I mainly dont get involved with such topics, but if someone were to murder or attempt to murder any part of my family, I would do my best to ensure they would never breath again.
Then let the courts get me a trial.
What is that old code? "An eye for an eye!"
Humbaraurri or something like that.
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ispar
I am not quoting your previous post in the interest of space.
I do agree on your comments on Kosovo! But then that's politics' :eek:
The link posted by St Santa is kinda neat I cruised it a bit an was again amazed at the differences in passages depending on the version and religious bias.
I really do not expect you to do so, (mainly because it is a lot of time consuming work) but just in case you WOULD like to see for yourself and not take ANYONE else's interpretation of passages you could go here. http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/index.htm (http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/index.htm)
After Exodus "god" came to the rules in Leviticus (many of these are not exact I just copied em from a general source)
24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
25:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
24:18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
24:19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
24:21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.
24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
Kinda bloody after commanding "Thou shalt not kill" doncha think ;)
I think 24:16 would pretty much depopulate the earth. :)
You believe we should lock em up, I believe we should save a lot of time and expense, we both can point to "god" (and many other sources) to "support" our beliefs. It all makes for a good pastime to debate the issue, but in the end I suppose that we will all find the truth of the matter.
I do also suspect that it will then be to late. :D
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Looks around see's a switch,
flips the switch, knocks california offline for another 2 hours. Ah sweet justice, tag em and bag em. Less tax money we have to spend on these chumps in prison. I am all for death sentences and I think they should be made public for us to view. Better yet, have them fight it out, whoever lives gets to fight next week, but in the end you will die for your crimes.
Ciao AG