Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: easymo on September 20, 2001, 09:59:00 AM
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I have been active on this board for the last few days. And I have made references to my service in Viet Nam. I would like to post the reason.
First of all, any sense of uniqueness I may have felt at being a combat veteran disappeared on Sept. 11. We are all vets now.
Secondly, the politicians have begun saying some disturbingly familiar things about what is to come.
The thing that was our undoing in that old war, was simply a lack of national will. Our forces won every major engagement with the enemy, for the first time in American history. In spite of that we lost. It was a lack of will.
Right now there is a lot of flag waving, everyone is pissed, ready to go to war. That is fine. But what about 5 years from now? When the constant drain on our economy, to fight this thing, seems to have no end. When the far greater cost of American lives continues. I can warrent, the weaker ones among us will start coming up with some very clever reasons why we should quit. Under no condition can we afford to do this. If we back away from one more, we have had it. Everything we belive in will gradually wither until there is nothing left for our children.
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Aye easymo, this is what I'm concerned about.
Americans are very impatient - it's both a virtue and a drawback. Am wondering if there's gonna be a repeat of the Viet nam war if things turn ugly :/
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Easy, valid concerns, good post.
The weaker ones are already saying we shouldn't even start.
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(http://www.twc-tampa.com/mdisalle/flag.gif)
Now and for as long as it takes
[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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I dont see this war being a protracted groundwar as in Vietnam. I see this war having strikes and engagements but it'll be more similar to the "cold" war mentality than anything. Perhaps that isnt even a good description....it'll be like a war on drugs with the FULL government miltary and intel involved and the will to go in a hit the sources.
The thing that makes me sleep better at night is that guys like Sec of State Powel remember Vietnam and our mistakes and the high cost to many young soldiers and the nation. I think we'll fully commit and use as much force as we can bring to bear.
I forsee a conflict that will ethier A: Bring about a "safer" maybe more united world. Or B: A world living in constant terror of some radicals retribution to you because he disagrees w/your way of life and or allies. I fiqure B is gonna happen regardless... eventualy terrorists WILL gain access to weapons of mass destruction and THEY WILL use them. Why should they care if they kill millions of infidels? We HAVE to win this war... if we give up or in...we're screwed and we've screwed our future as well.
xBAT
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Originally posted by batdog:
I dont see this war being a protracted groundwar as in Vietnam. I see this war having strikes and engagements but it'll be more similar to the "cold" war mentality than anything. Perhaps that isnt even a good description....it'll be like a war on drugs with the FULL government miltary and intel involved and the will to go in a hit the sources.
xBAT
I sure hope not. The drug war is an abyssmal failure.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:
I sure hope not. The drug war is an abyssmal failure.
Sandman
It has been a failure because we are fighting it in the wrong place. If we attacked the drug lords & their plantations as we seem to be planning to attack the terrorists, we could win that war too. It wouldn't fix the worlds drug problem but it would dry up the source(s)..
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Big difference between this and Vietnam. We have been attacked and lost lives already.
There will be those that do not have the stomach for what will come, or what may come. It is the nature of our society. We have all manner of people with all manner of ideas.
Just scan this board alone and you can see that.
If anyone start crying about a war, then the propoganda machine in our country will go to work. I can see banners all over this country of pictures of what happened in New York. I have already hung mine on the wall.
Another big difference between now and Vietnam; Virtually every country on the planet has pledged some level of support. This is probably the biggest reason why a war will happen and will continue to some logical conclusion.
My son, who is 18, and in the Air Force got to call me last night. He says, he is nervous, but he will not allow his children to grow up in a country worrying about being the next target. I had to ask,..you sure you're only 18?
Damn,..I am one proud papa. So,..for those that cannot stomach a war, move out of the way because we also have a country full of prideful folks that will not roll over and take it on the chin.
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Here ya go mates...
"Wednesday, Sept. 19, 2001
Miami Firemen Refuse to Ride on Truck Carrying Flag
Three Miami firefighters refused to ride on a fire engine carrying the American flag because they deemed Old Glory "offensive," the fire department said today.
The U.S. flag represents "oppression," the three government employees griped - and they refused to respond to emergency calls Saturday until a crew chief removed it, the Associated Press reported."
****
So you see, this too is not a question of "if" but of "when".
Skuzzy, (and all the rest of you proud parents) please convey to your offspring my thanks for their service.
I suspect my two will be taking their turn in this Hundred Years War as well. It fills me with fear but I know they'll go and I'll support them.
[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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Those firefighters should be terminated, immediately.
Don't read into this. I have incredible respect for anyone taking on the jobs of protecting our people.
Hmm,...better yet, send them to New York for a few months. Let's see what the New York fire fighters have to say :).
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City council in Berkley ordered all fighter trucks to remove their flags due to the protests that focused on City vehicles displaying flags during the Gulf war..but then again, it IS Berkley... :)
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F*&^ them all. I hope they get run outta the damn country.
Once again America has proven why we're such a great place to live... try to do that in anthor nation...
xBAT
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Originally posted by Skuzzy:
Those firefighters should be terminated, immediately.
Don't read into this. I have incredible respect for anyone taking on the jobs of protecting our people.
Hmm,...better yet, send them to New York for a few months. Let's see what the New York fire fighters have to say :).
Probably three of the group who didn't know how to vote correctly last November either...
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I suppose you could say I have the stomach for a war, if one is to be fought. But that one is to be fought is a terrible shame. A war to destroy terrorism will not solve this. It will instead only escalate and escalate until the only measure of victory is that some of us are still alive and all of them are dead. That's not a victory. A victory is to find a way to stop terrorism with the minimum bloodshed possible. If we are going to hit Afghanistan, so be it. I won't shed any tears over those responsible.
But to carry out a war against any who we determine to be terrorists (very likely an unavoidable conflict if we even hit Afghanistan - which is why it's such a stupid idea) will not lead to a solution. Only a "victory," and one that will be too costly to consider as such. Sorry, but global compassion, understanding, right sharing of resources, environmentalism (yes, this important) and an understanding that terrorism is a crime and will be treated as such are the only things that will lead to a true solution. There is no way to totally eliminate it, but there are ways to deal with it that don't involve simply killing many thousands or millions.
[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: ispar ]
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Best of luck skuzzy. Im sure the boy will do fine.
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Thank you, easymo, and Toad. I know he will do a-ok. Knowing he is going through SERE helps a lot. I went through the same training and it will give him an edge.
Whatever happens, I will always be proud of him.
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Send your Son my thanks and best wishes.
To me, this is one of those things that is not really open to debate. Sure, let the little dogs yap, as long as the CnC is strong, he will do the right thing and the nonsense will slip off his back. I think that Mr Bush can do that; I have seen it in his actions so far. Our President is one of those people that really will do what is right, with no regard for his popularity or his "legacy".
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Originally posted by ispar:
There are stupid things, like the firemen complaining about the flag, and then there are idiotic posts like this one....
ispar
from you, I'll take that as a compliment. :)
I do apologize for the political jab as now is not the time or place for it.
and the beat goes on:
Thursday, Sept. 20, 2001 7:14 PM EST
Cablevision: Boycott Warning Over Flag Ban
Cablevision, one of the nation's largest media conglomerates, continues to thumb its nose and is not backing down on flag ban policy.
At their News 12 operation on Long Island, news employees are asbolutely forbidden to show or wear the American flag while on air.
News director Pat Dolan is getting the full support from Cablevision management for his Stalinist policy.
Cablevision also owns the New York Knicks, Rangers, Radio City Music Hall, the Whiz electronic stores, and the American Movie Classics channel -- among other properties.
Dolan told New York's Newsday he banned the flag being displayed because it might suggest his news employees were taking sides, or even subtly suggesting they support the U.S. government.
To add insult to injury, Dolan went on-air claiming his organization was "patriotic" and criticized people who were complaining about his censorship program because "We should not be distracted by issues like this at a time when we are all focused on tracking down terrorists and helping our country recover."
Though thousands of New Yorks died -- and no doubt thousands of his own paying subscribers lost loved ones, Dolan advised again yesterday ". . . the flag is also a powerful symbol that must be used wisely. That's why, in my opinion, we need to be careful in using it when we're in public reporting the news."
The message is clear from Cablevision, they want the fruits of America's freedom, and the billions that flow into the coffers from Americans and New Yorkers -- but they don't want to let their newscasters "take sides" and show their support for America in this time of crisis.
Maybe there needs to be a message to Cablevision management: lift your ban on the American flag or a major boycott of your media properties will show you how Americans stand when it comes to Cablevision, the Knicks, the Rangers, Madison Square Garden, The Whiz, et al.
and here;
TV Stations Dump Bill Maher
Exclusive: At least three TV stations have dumped ultra-snide "Politically Incorrect" host Bill Maher because of his controversial remarks.
Starting tonight, the ABC stations in Des Moines and Sioux City, Iowa, and Lincoln, Neb., have dropped "Politically Incorrect" from their schedules until further notice, Ray Cole, president and CEO of Citadel Communications, which owns the three stations, told NewsMax.com this afternoon.
"We wanted to give the show an ample opportunity to explain, and in my view apologize," Cole told NewsMax. But he was disappointed in ABC's inaction and Maher's spinning and feeble attempts at apology, which initially included a statement that he's "never been good at grieving" on TV.
Sears, which along with Federal Express yanked ads from "Politically Incorrect," told Reuters news agency: "Bill and his guests have every right to voice their freedom of speech, and we applaud that. However, we have the right to air our broadcast advertising where we feel it's appropriate to reach out to our customers."
In a statement issued through a P.R. flack Wednesday, Maher said his views "should have been expressed differently."
"In no way was I intending to say, nor have I ever thought, that the men and women who defend our nation in uniform are anything but courageous and valiant, and I offer my apologies to anyone who took it wrong," the statement said.
"Too little, too late," said Cole, who was surprised that NewsMax was already reporting his decision, which had been made just this afternoon.
One of the viewers who flooded Cole's stations with complaints about Maher was NewsMax reader Neal J. Fisher, a Drake University student who told us "at least 50 people on campus" were involved in the dump-Maher movement. "There's been a much larger response from the community," he found out after contacting the station.
Cole said he didn't know of any other ABC stations pre-empting Maher yet. But there's hope. Take a stand by contacting your local ABC station and urging it to cancel "Politically Incorrect." Also, to e-mail ABC: abc.audience.relations@abc.com or netaudr@abc.com.
And we salute Ray Cole and his company and Neal J. Fisher and his fellow activists for taking their stand.
_____________________________ _
Skuzzy
I and my family salute all veterans of our arm forces, past present and future - the real freedom fighters <S>
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All this Dolan moron and the weasel-looking Maher(and those like them) need is a collective <finger> from the rest of us.
If i worked for Cablevision i'd wear my Flag and force 'em to fire me. And if they did, i'd deck that Dolan SOB on the way out the door.....
Cabby
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Newsmax :rolleyes: doesn't even mention (a quote or two woulda been helpful) what Maher actualy said. What did he say?
<edit> D'oh - found a link.
[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]
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This is war that was going to ahppen now or later. IF we wait for later we'd prob see a nuke... or a bio bomb or some other wep of mass destruction. THIS is why the nations of the world are with us. Many of them are much more liberal in nature than us...yet they stand with us? Why...because they SEE the writing on the wall. These Indiv's dont wont anything else but our destruction.. and if we NEGOTIATE with them then that means we'll be easy targets for the next batch of raddicals... ie you dont give us what we want we'll... whatever.
It sucks... but this is a WAR we didnt ask for but its here. You want freedom will guess what... freedom aint free. There's this place in D.C. full of white crosses that can attest to that...
xBAT
P.S. And to all the non-flag PC punks out there..diddly you.
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Of course some will say that this is not worth the cost. But the alternative is worse. Inaction now will accomplish nothing but embolden terrorists from around the world. bin Laden attacked the WTC in '93 and we did nothing. He attacked our embasies and we did nothing (shooting cruise missiles which only turned over a few rocks isn't a reaction). He damn near sank a US ship and killed our servicemen, and we did nothing. He (or someone related to his organization) has killed over 6,000 Americans and people from around the world. What will he do next if we do nothing?
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
"Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duty,and so bear ourselves that if the British Commonwealth and its Empire lasts for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour."
(House of Commons, 18 June 1940)
- Winston Churchill
And Skuzzy, tell your son that we're praying for him and all those with him. <S>
[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Dune ]
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Batdog brings up a good point. This time it was hijacked Airliners. What if next time it's anthrax in your city's water supply?
Or Ebola Virus? Or they find a way to infect our livestock with Hoof & mouth disease?
This is a war that MUST be fought.
The difference is that if we don't fight it, and win, it's us civilians that die!
This is nothing less than an all out attack on our culture & way of life.
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Ghosth! This is scary. I was thinking about that just the other day. Those types of terrorism are right up this guys alley.
That is why we have to do something now.
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Originally posted by Eagler:
ispar
from you, I'll take that as a compliment. :)
I do apologize for the political jab as now is not the time or place for it.
It wasn't so much the political thing as the notion that voting a certain way in this nation is "wrong" or incorrect. Simple point of view. Long live a multi-party democracy.
That's good enough for me Eagler, I'll delete the earlier reply.
S!
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I agree that war is unavoidable and if not begun soon the situation will just worsen.
But what I would like to have the finish line identified before we begin. What scares me is an open-ended situation, occupying other countries and the like.
We need a clear set of goals, and end this when those goals are met.
From that point we should eliminate these threats as they appear. Imo when some one stands up and says people should kill Americans, that’s a terrorist act and we should take them out as they appear.
and from a purely selfish point of i pray this is under control before my son turns 18.
not much hope of that i guess