Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Shepard121 on November 11, 1999, 03:10:00 PM
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I can do the Snap and pan views, but I would much rather have a padlock view. Are there any plans to add a padlock view?
One might argue that the padlock view might give away someone sneaking up on you, but I think the names above the plane do a good enough job with that.
A solution might be that you can only padlock a plane in the snap view, but once it's padlocked, your head (camera) will track it.
What do you think?
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Shepard
CO 121st VFAS Pit Vipers
http://www.121stVFAS.com
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Guppy
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Shepard;
For some reason this is an unpopular topic. It has been delved into many previous times on this BBS.
Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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No AI crutches for SA.
Get your OWN views.
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I'd prefer a padlock view as well, since it's a real pain in the arse to:
-Use my joystick
-Use my keyboard
-Turn my head
-Fire
All at the same time..
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Parias
ICQ: 1293359
"NEVER get out of the car!"
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The realistic padlock in Falcon might warrant a look. In realistic mode, once a plane leaves the pilots field of view. (ie..below the nose or under the belly) the padlock holds for a second or two, and then defaults back to the front view. (ie losing sight)
I am against having a padlock that can track a plane through your own plane.
To quote a friend of mine who is a retired fighter pilot:
You've got lots more situational awareness in a real plane, so use whatever views you can in the simulation to make up for that.
That's just my take...
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Isn't finding the enemy part of the fun?
Having to search frantically if you've lost vis on him really gets the adrenaline going for me.
Padlock views seem to be nothing more than a crutch to make boxed simm junkies who are too lazy to use their view system able to compete online. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I've been playing WarBirds for long time and never had any need for padlock view, so why would we possibly need one relaxed realism padlock here?
Seems like others doesn't have any problems either with that.
My words, you all who are missing padlock view, you guys will get used to these 'manual' views, I am sure of that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Shepard;
I myself have flown all the Falcon's. I learned when to use padlock and when not to use it.
I wonder how many naysayers have actually used Padlock long enough to know its uses, or how to effectly use it.
From a game standpiont HTC considers padlock to be very time comsuming to get it right, and not a so valuable featured to be coded.
The current AH view system is very well done, take some time to get the hang of it.
Mino
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I vote for a padlock view because it makes those guys using it, fixate on their targets. I find I can't keep an overall good SA in a multi bogey environment with a padlock view in the boxed sims, so I never use it. If some guy wants to "focus" on one plane that much, I am all for it.
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"Just Plane Nuts"
Gazoo
http://plaza.v-wave.com/SolarStorm/index.htm (http://plaza.v-wave.com/SolarStorm/index.htm)
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This reminds me of tonight in the arena when half the guys noticed ya couldn't see outside the plane anymore online, I heard more than a few complain...
"How are ya supposed to see behind yourself?!?!"
DOH!!!
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I think the time is right for implementing padlock to online sims. There's been a few offline games that show how to do it. Falcon4 and Flanker2 for example.
The key idea here is that you need to acquire the target "the old fashion way" first, and that the padlock will break lock if the target it out of sight for more than about 2 seconds. Padlock will never substitute the snap views.
Personally I would only use the padlock in many vs 1 fights, when there's little or no danger of an enemy bouncing my target fixated tail. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As long as the padlock is no magical see all through all thingy and is done correctly, it doesn't give any advantages. I could almost say quite the contrary. You easily get target fixated using the padlock.
I'm all for it.
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Camouflage (edited 11-12-1999).]
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Gotta agree with Gazoo. Give'm the padlock I like target fixated nme's.
I could use all the help I can get!
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Jumpin Jesus on a pogo stick! Everybody knows a burrow owl... lives... in a hole... in the ground!
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Hblair. I'm not sure what you're saying as
I've yet been able to try .38.
Is the F3 external view gone?
(if so THNAK COD!)
--Westy
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Yeah, it's gone, Westy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Haven't tested to see about bombers though ...
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Yep Westy, to the dissapointment of the dweeb population, F3 has been disabled online.
I'm not trying to be a smarta*s but why are you guys so bent on getting "padlock view"?
Do you not have your hat switch configged right or what?
Do you have a 4 way hat and/or haven't figured out how to look up? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Heres a tip, press number pad 5 key while using hat switch, Walaaa! Now you can look up and around!
Seriously though, I'm thinking you guys may have grown dependent on it too much. I fly in WB's ACA arena a lot, you can use your external view in there to watch a guy on your 6 while outside your plane. I have grown used to making evasive moves while looking back at my plane and his plane behind me. Just because I have grown used to it doesn't mean I am gonna want that feature in Aces High. Those kind of features (as the padlock view) create lazy flying habits. I think we are much better off without that rinky dinky arcade B.S.
Like I said, just my opinion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Another "nay" to the padlock...
Just one note to guys asking for padlock: multi-boogey engagement and you're dead. It's as simple as that.I guess then you'll start asking for a padlock that's tracking a guy who's aiming at you right now and so on...
I'm really curious how a padlock would work at all btw - how is it supposed to know who to lock onto? The one that's closer or the one you're chasing or the one that's chasing you? Just keep in mind that Falcon wouldn't normally cater for a nice furball (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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I do have my 4 way hat configured... it's my Thrustmaster FLCS. I also have to configure other hats to get the 45 degree views..
Target fixation isn't a problem with the padlock. Just switch back to check 6, or have your wingman telling you the situation. That's the real SA boost right there. The wingman is supposed to cover your tail so you can be fixated on the target and clobber him ASAP and move on.
Staying in padlock is a bad thing..that's why you need "glance" views... and the snap views work nicely for that.
My suggestion would be to allow you to pick your target you want to padlock with F3 (since it is not external view anymore! ;-) and have the snap views override it (left, right, forward, backwards) but when you let off the snap views, it would come back to padlocking your target (as long as you still can see him) just as it defaults back to the F1 view (forward)
That way, no magic, just a tool in the same sense as any view key. If you can't see him, you should not be able to padlock him. But if you can see him, then by all means, you should be able to track him in a padlock view.
BTW: I do use the snap views...and it's alright, but I have a better feel for the sense of flight when my head tracks the target. How many pilots do you think snap their heads at 45 degree angles.... heads swivel!
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"Alright Alright, Now I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it any more"
Padlock is a probably a dead issue in AH, any comments for or against are mute.
It is the Clone Drone Mindset that goes somthing like "GuppyDweeb using Padlock is an easy mark, because they are Target Fixated", that irritates me.
Actually the mindset should be "I am a Padlock Fixated GuppyDweeb, I don't know how to use Padlock effectivly, I am an easy mark so everyone else must be".
IMO the leading cause of getting shot down is low SA. Being fixated on one thing cause's huge amounts of SA loss. IT DON'T MATTER what kind of view you are using, or wether your dog just puked on your rudder peddles. FIXATION CAUSE'S SA TO BE DEGRADED EXPONENTIONALLY.
IMO GUNNERY is the leading cause of shooting down others. Your guns shoot 90 degrees relational to your lift vector. TARGET FIXATION IS THE GREATEST FACTOR IN GOOD GUNNERY.
How fast one can switch between good SA and good Target Fixation is the mark of an excellent pilot, not HOW or WHICH view they use.
IMO Padlock View is just another feature VERY common to modern flight sims. IT IS JUST ANOTHER VIEW. Padlock can be initially disorientating, but actually increase SA.
Padlock gives you the angle and velocity of your plane vs padlocked plane. This is because you see the nme plane as you actually would see it, and that computes faster and easier in your brain.
Your butt, in the seat of your plane, being your reference, and your eyes seeing the targets relational aspect. I am assuming you are connected to your plane by your butt, your butth^le is parallel to your lift vector.
A formula for Padlock use during a multi-bandit fight (there are many more I am sure).
1) Sweep all snap views, roll inverted and repeat, get a good SA picture --> 5 secs
2) Use snap view, observe target --> .25 secs
3) Lock Padlock, observe the relation of your lift vector vs nme planes lift vector --> .45secs
4) Get back into cockpit and manuver
5) Repeat steps 2 & 3 or proceed to step 6 when you are in shooting range
6A) Become 100% fixated on the target and make the kill --> 5 secs
6b) Be killed because you have no SA --> 10 secs
6c) Dis-engage, go to step 1 --> 5.01 secs
Any good pilots use a view much longer than .5 secs in a furbal except right before taking a shot?
Mino
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All I have to say is, not everyone is a retired pilot, a pilot at all, or even been in a real plane. I think the external views should be reimplimented. It is too much of a pain in the arse to try to look around using the keyboard while trying to chase a bogey at the same time. That and the views behind ya aren't exacly great in a few planes . . . ex.
-> Dweebfire. . . 190 . . .
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Um, Zephler?
When <curly starts loading baby seal buckshot into the guns> do you fly????
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Having read the above comments, I'm even more dead set against padlock view.
Learn your hat, get your own views. Period. Next you "padlock" people will be asking for dot commands to do auto-chandelles, split-Ses, loops, and hammerheads.
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I have no doubt, (as I am sure anyone familiar with WB) that there will be no external view available in a single-pilot fighter planes in the general arenas.
Visibility, especially the rear visibility is one of the most important things in a plane. Removing the difference would seriously affect the balance of planes.
In WB many more people would fly F6F and F4U if they did not have that huge armor plate behind.
At the same time many good pilots managed to survive B&Z attacks in Japanese planes because of the exellent rear view and maneuvrability.
The padlock can be implemented with the ability to snap out of it temporarily. I am all for it even though I do not think it the first priority.
miko--
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what does wishing for a padlock do have to do with needing dot commands to perform BFM/ACM? it makes no sense to even bring that into the conversation....
As for snap views.. I personally can do it. I prefer a padlock that tracks my target once I have spotted it, and I like to take glances to the rear and forward to maintain my SA and have my view return to my target. In JAne's F-15, if you glance forward or backwards for too long while in padlock mode, your padlock is broken and you have to reaquire. (find the bandit again) but a quick glance forward or backwards, and the view returns to track your target.
Since we're off tangent anyhow... how bout the names and numbers on planes... yup, now THAT is a SA crutch. It's impossible to sneak up on someone (stalk) when you have big neon letters saying "SPIT"
Course, it's added to aid playabiltiy and make up from lack of SA due to graphics limitations....
Just think how the same could apply to a tracking camera that follows your target as if your head were following it... or even tracking with your eyes.
Since we have no padlock, those of us who want it have to adjust and live with it. Adding a padlock takes nothing from the game (as long as it's not a magic padlock that sees through your plane, swivels your head 360) but it could add a nice immersive feel.
I might consider changing my callsign to robot since the views are too mechanical.
-Shep
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This is an issue that finds little middle ground... guys on the less experienced end tend to be in favor of padlock/external views, those on the experienced end are usually against. Over time, and as the new flier gains experience he/she gains a respect and even the desire for no external/padlock. Not to sound elitist there, this has been my experience.
It's like this. We all start with a desire to be instantly successful in a game. We want to bypass that painful end of the learing curve in some forlorn hope that we might be "special", and somehow born to be the best. Fact is, everyone takes their lumps. Once we get enough lumps we have the experience to survive and be successful, else we have moved on. Generally the people who stay on want more realism- it's more immersive that way.
The question remains then, why build in a crutch that soon most pilots would find unnecessary and even undesireable in a very short time anyway? To me, to spend one iota of time on these aspects only detracts from (IMHO) more vital aspects of the long-term success of the game. It's not that I care so much that we have or don't have these features, it's more that I personally rank them so far down the list of priorities that I would want virtually nothing about the game to be put below them.
And yes, developing proper ACM, even BFM (how many have used external to land their a/c? Be honest!) is affected by the availability of the omniscient God-view. In the spectrum of game<---->simulation these crutches moves us further to the left. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by -kier- (edited 11-12-1999).]
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Stilg;
The only thing that sounds truly silly to me is this statement.
Quote: "Next you "padlock" people will be asking for dot commands to do auto-chandelles, split-Ses, loops, and hammerheads." :End Quote
Stilg, You forgot Double Roman's, Low Yo-Yo's and Otto pilot. Wait, we already got Otto pilot.
The planet earth is indeed round. Think about how long that concept was HEE-HAW'd, by the righteous, only to be proved foolish beyond believe.
Although quite humorous, many Anti-Padlockers resort to Hee-Haw's. While most Pro-Padlockers provide logical arguments, if only their opinion. Padlock will probably not happen in AH anyway, so this only quadruples my amusement. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What fear does Padlock create? Got me on this one.
-Kier-;
I am definately opposed to external views, but that is my experience. External views remove realism IMO.
I found your post well thought out. I agree with you up to one point. IMO your logic concerning experience is off.
Quote: guys on the less experienced end tend to be in favor of padlock/external views, those on the experienced end are usually against :End Quote
Pilot expereince gained up to date was gained WITHOUT the use of Padlock. It is difficult to judge this comparison, as the people who are in favor of padlock, have gained their experience by USING Padlock.
I state two examples why I believe this:
1) Experienced Teamsters thought Steam Powered Trains were not worthwhile --> Experienced Steam Locomotive Engineers thought Diesel Electric Locomotives were not worthwhile --> Experienced Diesel Locomotive Engineers thought etc etc etc
2) Experienced US Army Corps Personel believed Aeroplanes would serve no function in war other that observation platforms.
I believe we have arrived at the crux our discussion. Thanks -Kier-.
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-12-1999).]
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"I might consider changing my callsign to robot since the views are too mechanical. -Shep"
Or "computer" because you want the computer to do the looking for you.
Actually I could go either way. Padlock is a cruthc for those who feel inadequate to the task of learning good situational awareness.
Padlock users = more dweeby pile-its for me to fatten my score with. Bring it on! Give it to em! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
On the other hand it would help folks like BulletHeads friend who is handicapped to be even able to fly here.
--Westy
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Westy;
Your arguement IMO, also has a weakness.
Quote: Padlock is a cruthc for those who feel inadequate to the task of learning good situational awareness. :End Quote
Padlock use or any static view use, for an extented duration of time decreases SA. It does not increase it. You, IMO, are comparing apples to cabbages.
You must rotate your views, and keep your focus changing to increase your awareness, not focus on one thing. Padlock simply provides another aspect to a Sim view system.
Newer people generally are in favor of Padlock, more experienced are not. These "PadlockDweebs" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) will be slaughtered by better flyers no matter what VIEW they use.
You can check my score. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If after 2 to 3 years of padlock use (hypothetical), your response might be different and you might find yourself a "PadlockDweeb" just to compete with these "Young Guns".
Jedi, is going to love this one... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
When I look at something, I look right at it. I turn my head and move both my eyeballs. Whatever it is, it is smack dab in the middle of my vision. I don't look at half of it or turn my head and strain my eyes so that it is the left quarter of my vision.
AH people are comfortable with the idea of simulated flight, but many seem very uncomfortable with the idea of simulated human vision.
Give me a Pan View System, that is easy to use while I have all my phanlanges connected to my flight equipment, and I will never have another thought along the Padlock View lines.
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-12-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-12-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-12-1999).]
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FYI: I'm not a young gun. I've been doing flight sims for 10+ years... and I have had plenty of kills using padlock and fixed views.
A-10 Cuba is one of my favorite all time sims...yet there was no padlock there... yet I managed to rack up my share of kills.
No, my SA is fine thank you... I wonder what people who have lost their thumb do... can't move padlock without your thumb... guess they are just S.O.L. eh?
Well, I've argued my point... if HTC decides not to put in a padlock, I'll fly... if they do put it in, I'll fly with a smile.
See ya in the air... have a good weekend...
Shep
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Shep;
You are INDEED a "Young Gun", relative to this game. There people here that have been playing just this style game for over 10 years, the developers included. They have become truly awesome at it.
I mean no negative conutations at all.
Enjoy your weekend as well, I am working (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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I read the posts about the option of padlock in AH, and I'm rather displeased by posters saying "Padlocks are crutches, learn the snap views" and etc. Sometimes I wondering if I am overacting by replying this but..
What if the user can't use the snap views? I'm not talking about the user using a 2 button stick, I'm talking about physically can't use them. I'm one of them. Please guys, think about you are saying about padlocks and such. This kind of talk is making me re-think about not leaving "brand a" sim for AH.
Thank you for listening.
Falcon <CAF>
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I was a AW1,2 and 3 (FR) player for about 4 years and a WWII box sim player for about 8 years now. My first experence with padlocks was with Janes WWII then SDOE and EAW. It took a little bit of getting use to flying ACMs while locked on without the tactile feel of the plane to give cues as to what my orentation was (just a note I do fly real planes). I dont agree with or understand those that say padlock is a cheat or crutch or your a dweeb because you use it. Come on guys....A real pilot tracked his target by moving his head in a swivel. Following the target then checking is suroundings then back to the target. What the heck is the problem with trying to provide that immersion? Some say learn how to use snap views. Okay fine, so what, does that ability make you an Ace? No it takes a hell of a lot more for that. Since we a faced with a very limited view of the sim world why does it make so many anti-padlockers freakout about those that want to use them. I use it in constant alternation with snapviews. I win some and lose some, but I can tell you the losses have come because an E disavantage for the most part and others because some are just plan better than me in ACM not because I had to little SA. Believe me I can tell when I'm screwed pretty damn quick and since its just a game I engage because I'd rather "die" fighting than run. The times I win general result because I had E advantage or I was better at AMC. Again padlock helps me feel more like Im in a cockpit rather than setting in a chair in my den looking at a monitor. it doesn't make me better or worst. IMO.
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I would like to see padlock. I am not asking to take away my snap views. I have 3 4-way hats devoted to views and using them is as natural to me as turning my head. It takes both hands, one hat on the throttle and 2 hats on the stick, to operate my setup.
I don't want to see a magic SA button, but something to reduce the button presses for people like Falcon who do not have full function of all digits. I have winged with Falcon and you would not know he was disabled unless he told you. He is a worthy experienced opponent.
ACM and SA is not about who can slam the stick hardest and who can push buttons fastest. That's called Quake. Im sure most of you vets out there very seldom hit the limits of your joystick travel. I am all for a padlock that can be locked onto an enemy and follow an enemy as long as it is in sight. This will give no newbe dweeb an advantage over me.
Gunner
<Cactus Air Force>
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I think there should be PADLOCK. I want a realisitic sim, and as such, I can padlock an aircraft when flying, so I would like the ability to do so here.
Also, I understand the fears some have of padlock. I don't want the APG-63 variety of padlock some games have had. In fact, if I was to reference any one game which had a good padlock, it would be the ill-fated `Confirmed Kill'. I know some here flew that beta as well. You were not able to padlock what you couldn't see. E.G.- you had to `look at it' first with the snap views, then while looking at it, you could padlock it. I thought it was an excellent feature. Also, if you blacked out, you lost your padlock.
Speaking of blackouts, why haven't any sims (That I know of) ever modeled black outs well? Even this sim goes straight to tunnel vision then full black out. My understanding is that you would actually `gray out' first (Is that to difficult to do in a sim? Make the colors fade to grayscale first?). Then as you held the G's you would progress into tunnel vision, then full blackout. I was just curious as to why we don't see that.
All things considered, though, I am really enjoying this sim!
LB-HAM!!
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Gawd-haven`t we kicked this dead horse for long enough?WE DON`T NEED NO STEENKING PADLOCK!Get a freaking clue people,HiTech said no-what part of that don`t you understand? I can sympathize with any person who is disabled but if they have both hands disabled I can`t picture how they manage to fly anyway. Personally I think 99% of the people requesting this crap idea ARE LOOKING FOR THEIR CRUTCH they became used to in less worthy sims,jeez some of you are really lame.
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JG-2 "Richthofen"
http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/ (http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/)
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The planet earth is indeed round. Think about how long that concept was HEE-HAW'd, by the righteous, only to be proved foolish beyond believe.
Minotaur, I already razzed Stiglr for holding this same belief. Now you espouse it.
With very few exceptions (most of which are currently living), no halfway educated person in the last 2000 years has believed the earth is anything but more or less spherical (and not simply round like a pizza). Similarly, the idea of padlock view is silly.
The game works this way: it presents to the player as much of the sense data as possible, and the player executes a number of inputs that should represent as closely as possible basic bodily movements. Where the mechanical aspect is, for gameplay reasons, too complex, it has been simplified.
Moving your head is not that hard. The problem with yer padlock is that,
A. It hinders the development of good SA. By automatic your head, it can disorient you.
B. It hampers reasonable ACM. Those fancy evasive moves won't work as well. Try a hartmann maneuver? Why? The bad guy will just keep tracking you. On the other side, it really encourages yank and bankin'. Line up your head with the stick, and pull. Moreover, much of your "seat of the pants" feel for the plane is going to be based on how the horizon is moving with respect to the plane. This feel gets lost once the plane and the horizon are moving relative to another plane.
C. As kier points out, it's got limited utility. If you get good, you'll want to run your own views anyway.
D. Programming "to do it right" would be a tremendous expense of resources. Obviously, you can't have it automatically acquire enemies, or you'd castrate a major part of this game. What are you going to do, force a mouseclick on the icon? Try that in a dogfight. Make it lock on whatever's in the crosshairs? By then you've already found your solution. And then turning it off when it's obstructed.How long do you wait?
So, it's a crutch that develops poor habits, has limited usefulness and poses programming challenges. Using it is as ludicrous as claiming that Columbus went out to prove the world was spherical.
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I wouldn't use the padlock, i just don't like the sensation of trying to fly your plane round so the padlock points forward (i can't fly on the edge of the flight envolope and get the best out my plane without glancing at the instruments)
On the other hand i have no problem with people who perfer it but as i don't use i would hate to think HTC's are wasting time (from my PoV) putting it in the game.
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A few people have talked about a padlock with glance mode. IMO after you glance shouldnt you have to reaquire the target? Thats where I see a cheat.
And yes in real life we have a wider FOV but sometimes things move so fast it only takes a split second to lose track.
If it could be done where after a six glance the padlock moves your head back to where it was no matter where the bogey is but you need to search a bit for the target. Say, with the mouse?
I like Snap views myself, padlock gets me killed!
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Jumpin Jesus on a pogo stick! Everybody knows a burrow owl... lives... in a hole... in the ground!
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>>I can sympathize with any person who is disabled but if they have both hands disabled I can`t picture how they manage to fly anyway<<
Well, being that I helped to customize a stick for someone with a significant disability i "CAN" see how they fly, and fly well enough so that you wouldnt notice the handicap if in a fight with them.
Mastery of the snap views is absolutely essential to SA which is essential to survival.
That said, I honestly dont see how a padlock provides an advantage to the average person, if anything its a liability. But to those that are new, or are unable to use the snap views I ask what harm does it do to "you?"
Are our egos so great that we cant handle getting shot down by someone who's doing things a little differently.
Personally, I wouldnt use a padlock if it was incorporated, I'm comfortable with snap views. But Im not going to begrudge someone their wishes simply because I think "My" way is better. Its pretty childish really...
>>jeez some of you are really lame<<
Yep, I guess we just aint as cool you weaz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Fester, out
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I honestly dont see how a padlock provides an advantage to the average person
Answer: It hampers reasonable ACM. Those fancy evasive moves won't work as well. Try a hartmann maneuver? Why? The bad guy will just keep tracking you. On the other side, it really encourages yank and bankin'.
I`m not trying to be cool,far from it-I`m a hothead and it just pisses me off to see the continual whining for this crutch. You whiners need to learn to anticipate angles/position of the enemy,counter it in a correct manner and then you wont need this crap because the enemy will be in your gunsite!
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JG-2 "Richthofen"
http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/ (http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/)
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Weazel;
I have not noticed any whining from the pro-padlock crowd. Geneally, opinions are expressed in logical fashion. It is some fear generated in this discussion that creates whining in the anti-padlock crowd.
You are correct, padlock is a non-issue for AH. This is simply a discussion for forum only. No one is really thinking it will exist in this game, this was stated very early in the thread. At least I am not. But exploring the pro's and con's of padlock is interesting.
My amusement and question is, "WHAT IS THE FEAR" that creates this volatile and often HOSTILE reaction?
Generally this is my opinion of the whole issue.
Quote: When I look at something, I look right at it. I turn my head and move both my eyeballs. Whatever it is, it is smack dab in the middle of my vision. I don't look at half of it or turn my head and strain my eyes so that it is the left quarter of my vision.
AH people are comfortable with the idea of simulated flight, but many seem very uncomfortable with the idea of simulated human vision.
Give me a Pan View System, that is easy to use while I have all my phanlanges connected to my flight equipment, and I will never have another thought along the Padlock View lines. :End Quote
FYI...
Quote: I`m not trying to be cool,far from it-I`m a hothead and it just pisses me off to see the continual whining for this crutch. You whiners need to learn to anticipate angles/position of the enemy,counter it in a correct manner and then you wont need this crap because the enemy will be in your gunsite! :End Quote
I consider this whining.
Mino
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Dinger;
Should Stilg be offended by my post I will promptly apologize, please have him let me know. It is not my intention to be abusive.
I agree with your post 99%, but maybe you and I have one mis-understanding in concept.
I do NOT think pilots stare out their side windows, with their eyes glued to a piont in space (or a target) while performing intricate flight manuvers.
I believe pilots glance at this target while flying their intricate manuvers, glancing at cockpit intruments, the horizon and many other cues and then re-acquiring their target almost instantly to locate its position and its relation to their own position. This re-acquiring process is based on expected location in relation to last visual contact. The human brain is very good at this sort of thing.
Example:
You are playing center outfield for baseball. The batter hits a high looper to left center. You have played up and must run a long distance to catch the ball.
You visually acquire the ball coming off the bat --> You brain computes the vector for intercept --> You take off running to that intercept piont, you are NOT looking at the ball while running --> You re-acquire the ball just before in impacts the ground and make a diving catch.
You did this all with no thought, as to which snap view you must use.
I believe that when pilots (human animals) look at anything it is automatically centered right in the center of their vision, and that they can lose sight and re-acquire it rapidly.
I DO NOT believe padlock is a crutch. I believe Padlock SIMPLY simulates human vision and the human brains abitilty to compute space relation.
Mino
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Ya know, guys like Weasel I run into in my entire life. Everytime they see me they think "He's retarded" or "He can't do this or that so why bother"
For your info mr weasel, you don't know me ok, so don't judge me or my flying ability. I have been flying sims since the wire graphic oringal F-15 Strike Eagle and been flying W/O Padlock until Falcon 3.0 came along. The view really helped me and my skill soared beyond belief.
If HTC says no padlock, fine. I hope AH does well and hopefully have a bright future in Y2K. I'll just stay here to test the sim for HTC though, thats how I am.
Falcon <CAF>
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Minatour don't generalize it is the indication of a weak mind unable to make specific,incisive arguments.
to para-phrase you
You anti-padlock guys are all unstable and unreasonable, (hence wrong)
Us pro-padlock guys are very reasonable and are agrument is stimulating and intelligent. (hence right)
The parts in brackets are not said but implied.
P.S. tongue is in cheek.....but only just
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Jimcaul;
It is not my intention to let this become a "Mud-Slingling Contest". Also consider my humor runs a little on the dry side.
IMO I was just making valid arguments and observations by responding to posts opposite of my opinions. Reading your reply only re-affirms my opinion of how the two major groups approach this topic.
I must sometimes realize that it is human nature for people to read something they do not agree with, and then become angry. They become angry wether it really effects them or not.
There is that side effect of my posts, that you have pointed out to me, that I did not realize. I will change my style in the future.
Thanks again....
I also know that the folks at HTC read this stuff. It is my believe that Rants and Raves go less and good arguments, if only opinions, go more.
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-13-1999).]
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Ya know, guys like Weasel I run into in my entire life. Everytime they see me they think "He's retarded" or "He can't do this or that so why bother"
Go back and read my posts again,I believe you will see that I stated I can sympathize with people with disabilitys,and also something about 99% of people whining about this crutch. I didn`t include you in the that 99% and didn`t make any derogatory statement OR attack on people with disabilitys. I have worked with/supervised disabled people in the past and realize that if given the methods/tools to assist them in performing their work they are usually better workers than the average Joe-so don`t put your words in my mouth. However I don`t see how HTC could implement a padlock view for you without in effect giving the 99% of whiners w/o disabilitys what would ammount to a built-in cheat to hide their lack of ACM skills.
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}]
JG-2 "Richthofen"
http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/ (http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/)
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>>However I don`t see how HTC could implement a padlock view for you without in effect giving the 99% of whiners w/o disabilitys what would ammount to a built-in cheat to hide their lack of ACM skills<<
The usefulness of a padlock view has already been discussed, and it has generally been decided that it would be more of a liability than an asset, especially in a multi-plane environment
So where does the cheating part come in?
Maybe you can enlighten us on this tremendous advantage the hordes of dweebs and the occasional disabled person will have over you?
And instead of an emotional tyrade, lets try to elevate this to an adult level.
If you have a valid point I wouldnt mind hearing it.
Fester, out
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Why i won't write padalock.
1. To be fair with the padaloc system any time the bogie flew behind anything the lock would have to break. That meens that if he simply crosses a canopy rail the lock would break. The inside plane detection lock break is fairly easy and not very cpu intensive. We also have the terrain to break the lock and all other objects in the terrain including clouds other planes and this is not a trival cpu matter but it could be worked out. So unlike all the other games that use padalock just a normal pull from an up view to a forward view will always pass a canopy rail and there for the lock would be constantly disengaging. Do to game design U will not auto reaquire a target once the lock is brocken. So what padalock would end up like is only a very marginaly usefull tool for people who havn't yet mastered the normal view system.
Now unlike players I have to way every thing in the time it takes to implement vs what it adds to the game. Quite simply writeing padalock would delay somthing else and in my view just isn't worth the time to write verses the benifit to the game.
Finaly this is not a new issue. Ive been hearing the exact same aguments over that last 5 years and it has almost always come down to people who have learned the view system have no desire for padlock and people who havn't yet mastered it wish there was one.
HiTech
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LOL;
Check this out.
************************
Guppy
No AI crutches for SA.
Get your OWN views.
Padlock views seem to be nothing more than a crutch to make boxed simm junkies who are too lazy to use their view system able to compete online.
I've been playing WarBirds for long time and never had any need for padlock view, so why would we possibly need one relaxed realism padlock here?
Seems like others doesn't have any problems either with that
I'm not trying to be a smarta*s but why are you guys so bent on getting "padlock view"?
Do you not have your hat switch configged right or what?
When <xxxxx starts loading baby seal buckshot into the guns> do you fly????
Learn your hat, get your own views. Period. Next you "padlock" people will be asking for dot commands to do auto-chandelles, split-Ses, loops, and hammerheads.
The question remains then, why build in a crutch that soon most pilots would find unnecessary and even undesireable in a very short time anyway?
Or "computer" because you want the computer to do the looking for you.
WE DON`T NEED NO STEENKING PADLOCK!
. Personally I think 99% of the people requesting this crap idea ARE LOOKING FOR THEIR CRUTCH they became used to in less worthy sims,jeez some of you are really lame.
Similarly, the idea of padlock view is silly
So, it's a crutch that develops poor habits, has limited usefulness and poses programming challenges. Using it is as ludicrous as claiming that Columbus went out to prove the world was spherical.
I`m not trying to be cool,far from it-I`m a hothead and it just pisses me off to see the continual whining for this crutch. You whiners need to learn to anticipate angles/position of the enemy,counter it in a correct manner and then you wont need this crap because the enemy will be in your gunsite!
Minatour don't generalize it is the indication of a weak mind unable to make specific,incisive arguments.
I don`t see how HTC could implement a padlock view for you without in effect giving the 99% of whiners w/o disabilitys what would ammount to a built-in cheat to hide their lack of ACM skills.
*****************************
The above are selected quotes from posts in this thread. Flame me for my choices...
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-13-1999).]
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-13-1999).]
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Minatour:
To quote myself
my tongue is in my cheek....but only just
end quote
Read into this i'm just stirring trouble (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Fester,go back and re-read Dingers post,he stated the reasons quite well. If you want it in my words here it is,if I learn to perform a manuever that will give me an advantage or allow me to kill or escape being killed it shouldn`t be negated by the computer of my enemy being able to track me through the manuever. That amounts to a "cheat" in my eyes simply because this about pilot vs pilot-not PC vs PC. I`ve spent a lot of time and money to aquire my limited skills in flight sims and don`t want to see it lost due to this crutch.
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}]
JG-2 "Richthofen"
http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/ (http://www.rapfire.net/~weazel/)
[This message has been edited by weazel (edited 11-13-1999).]
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Hitech;
Thanks, I can once again breath (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Pretty much knew this all along and stated it early in the post.
Thanks for your time in a your busy schedule.
Mino
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Minotaur-
Assembling a montage of quotes out of context to validate your point isn't being fair to the authors. I never once stated in the all-encompassing strokes you attributed to me (by association) the belief that all pilots prefer not to have padlock and that all that do are cheaters, dweebs, inferior, etc. I tried to stand back and write what my experience with sims has been, then added how I felt about the issue. I never intended to add to the flames you might be feeling, but if you really want discourse, you must be ready to accept a different view. I felt mine was delivered respectfully.
I repeat, (and ironically, it is more-or-less what HiTech just posted) I don't care whether or not we have padlock, but I wouldn't want it at the expense of anything else.
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we are taking about WWII planes right, keep your eyes open and look around a lot, if not, you will be shot down.
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-kier-
My apologies, I honestly just thought that the those quotes were funny.
Your post had to do with "crutch". This seems to be the operating lever (word) for this bipolarized tripod.
Hitech has stated his position, you have stated yours and me well, I have overstated mine.....
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-13-1999).]
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"...I have overstated mine..."
<nods>
Flatulance.
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Just browsing around in here (mac). And want to reply to this with my pocketchange.
If you are in desire of padlocks, then run, don't walk to your padlock view games.
Aces High and pre-2.7 Warbirds was written by Hitech for realism towards acm in mind. Such things as "otto" have been implimented because there could be a lack of positions on the plane filled by "real" pilots. Most serious acm simmers don't like it, but put up with it because of this obvious shortcoming.
I am a serious flight'simmer and as with most and if not all of them, padlock views are out. O-U-T out! As soon as any sim goes with a padlock or external view, then it throws immerision right out the door.
There's two kind of flight simmers out there, one being the one that likes to watch the airplanes fly, and one that likes to fly them.
Padlock view is not realistic for these reasons:
In reality, when your eye moves off to look at another external cue as to what your planes situation is in, taking your eye off the target, then coming back to the target, your eye DOES NOT attain it instantly. Your eye will wander a split second before the acquire, the time and distance of acquisition will vary according to how well the pilots logical thinking interpolates where the object will be. If the object of focus is moving too fast, he probably will never acquire focus on it again, but seeing it as a blur in peripheral vision as it zips by. And there are times when he just plain loses it. But with Padlock, this is never a problem.
Got it? good.
With padlock, you attain instantly, center of attention, smack dab in the middle of your screen. No need to look in the slightest. In real life, you have to look.
Pro-padlockers that it would be more real vision-like, moving the head on a swivel so to speak, because he doesn't have to press keys to change views, that the eye follows a target in the center of his focus.
Well, my argument to that is thats wrong. And my previous argument is explains a lot why it is wrong. But also I want to add that the main point of that being wrong is this, and here for example minotaur he states:
"When I look at something, I look right at it. I turn my head and move both my eyeballs. Whatever it is, it is smack dab in the middle of my vision. I don't look at half of it or turn my head and strain my eyes so that it is the left quarter of my vision."
When do you look at half of it?
When looking at your monitor, do you stare at the center of the screen so that the target is in left quarter? Your monitor is your field of vision, like it or not, this isn't the dream room in one of Ray Bradbury's stories where the lions eat the children. No this is the year 1999, and we have a periscope in our virtual reality, it being your monitor, no?
Okay, so we have to shift this 'periscope' to view this reality. The target object is at the place on your monitor where this FOV is occupying, always the same relative to your POV. So if the target is, say, 5 inches above, and 2 inches left of a given cue in your field of view, such as a gunsight or headrest, then your eyes, as in reality, will focus, on the object, NOT the gunsight or center of the headrest, goofy.
Why is that different from reality? You act as if it is. Your eyeballs shift to the object on your screen. Just because its in the left quadrant of your screen doesn't mean your eyes don't look directly at it.
The problem with padlock is the fact that the computer is doing the headturning for you. Like it or not, serious flight simmers in the course to find better immersion, prefer to keep as many computer-aided aspects to a minimum. Having the computer track a target is computerized acm. Get that? COMPUTERIZED ACM! That may be possible in computerized planes that we have now in this day and age, so maybe that is why you flew all the Falcons. Because you like the computerized stuff. We are talking WWII, where the Enigma was state of the art computer. And it didn't have a monitor.
Believe me, the computer can track a target much better than a human in a real plane can track a target. Snap views, or even pan views (which is unrealistic because of the speed of the pans, and another subject), are the rawest and most basic way to view your surroundings. That is what the serious ACM simmer wants. The rawest, simplest way to view his surroundings.
If you want computerized tracking, go play Falcon. Leave us propellor heads with our basic flying machines.
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MG
Major
Rogue Gryffons
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Minotaur: "I believe pilots glance at this target while flying their intricate manuvers, glancing at cockpit intruments, the horizon and many other cues and then re-acquiring their target almost instantly to locate its position and its relation to their own position. This re-acquiring process is based on expected location in relation to last visual contact. The human brain is very good at this sort of thing."
You are sooooo wrong here pal (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) You're going downwind to land watching another Cessna on final. He's white, it's a sunny day and he's barely half a mile from you. You "snap" your view to check the airspace around you - "snap" back to monitor the lander and he's not there!!! It takes quite a few moments to "re-acquire" a plane even if you know that "expected location in relation to last visual contact"...
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 11-15-1999).]
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Padlock Bollocks !!
SA is all you need
laika-
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MG;
Lynx;
<Sigh>
Sounds like you SUPPORT my idea of computer tunnel vision and the use of Padlock. Padlock being a "Human Vison Simulator". Supporting my ideas, only from the opposite perspective"
There is simply no way to completely and acurately descibe things with words that happen in real life. You can nitpick forever anything that uses words to describe something that occurs in real life.
I was hoping to get some concepts across. Please forgive any attempts up to this piont that I have made, it was not my intension to CHANGE your thinking. I only wished to HAVE you think about it from another perpective.
This is the purpose of a "Forum", gather new ideas?
Consider this Example:
Snap view right --> The con is on the left part of my screen (as displayed on my computer monitor - con is in front of me on the right side) --> As I (simulatedly) move so does the con, our aspect is 180 degrees --> The con moves to the center of my screen --> Then the con moves to the RIGHT QUARTER OF MY SCREEN --> Then the con moves off the right side of my screen
This SIMULATES that I have only moved my head 90 degrees and that I have stuck toothpits in both eyes. My eyes have remained locked in my head and have not moved. This IMO is UNREALISTIC, but it is the best that THIS FLIGHT SIM WILL DO AT THE TIME.
Pan View is too difficult to use in combat, using the keyboard. Pan View needs a new technology to be REALISTICALLY used.
Tell you what, you guys are pilots?
Show me a pilot who can hold is head to look at a 45 degree angle backwards, then snap their head forward, then snap back to the 45 degree angle, then spin it around to check six, while pulling 5.5g's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Show me a pilot one who can look over both shoulders, crank their head around and check six, then snap their head forward again, pulling -2.5g's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Show me a pilot who can snap his head in any position they want, as quickly as they want, no matter how fast or abruptly the rest of pilot's body is moving the oppostite direction. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I'll show you a pilot sitting at a computer with rice in his shoes married to some faint idea of how it really should be. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Last I heard, eyeballs have less mass than brain caves. I honestly don't know, did WW2 planes have G meters?
I never once said there was ANYTHING wrong with the current view system. I use it effectively, and find it very adequate. It uses the same View System used in the 10+ year old simulation AW. I did not change any of my joystick view macros to play AW, WB or AH. THEY WERE ALL THE SAME.
I made no reference to any "SO CALLED" Hardcore Simmers opinion about wether their toejam stinks or wether it does not.
<nods>
Flatulance
Roses! Now I feel better. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-16-1999).]
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Tired Thread;
PADLOCK!!! (Scare anybody?) (Make anyone Mad?) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
IMO, I know that Padlock has never really been done right, if at all, in any "Massively Multi-Player" envoirment. Hence, just amounts to some form of "Game Concession".
Therefore; and hypothetically, NO ONE (including myself) can say wether they like or dislike Padlock in this type game......
At this stage, all anyone can say is wether they LIKE or DISLIKE the IDEA of Padlock in this type game.......
For myself, I occasionally like to look into the future (C. Columbus) and form ideas about what I might find out there on the other side of the ocean. That does not guarantee I WILL always like what I find. I am just not afraid to go looking. I might just sink my ship and never come back (HAHA No such luck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ).
I have confidence that if anyone (Software Team) ever does Padlock right, they will be a team like HTC. By that time, a NEW technology will probably have come out and make it obsolete anyway.
Please note, if someone does do it, and I don't like it. I might just express my opinion about that as well. I might do it on a Forum much like this one.
"You have been Shotdown"
"You have been Killed"
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-16-1999).]
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Note: I accept from the post that HTC has decided not to implement a padlock, but the below quotes actually provide an interesting arguement for the actual concept of padlocking your target
Just a quick addition to this threat. This was posted on combatsim.. the interview with Major General "Boots" Blesse:
We had a chance to talk to Boots about his experience flying the F4 in Vietnam as well as his experiences in Korea flying the F86 Sabre. One of the most astonishing facts came out as we listened to him talk about the "padlock" system. It turns out that the system was not in effect when Boots arrived in Vietnam, and that the Sabre squadrons were flying defensive.
Not with Boots around! He quickly came to see how ineffective the tactics were, and Major Blesse soon developed new tactics. Whenever the flight LEAD spotted an enemy aircraft, he would never take his eyes off his target. Wouldn't that leave him vulnerable?
The system he worked out ensured safety for the padlocked pilot. When his wingman heard him call, "Baker lead, padlocked," he understood that the flight LEAD was now engaged, and it was his job as number TWO to ensure the safety of the engaged pilot. Number three and four similarly ensured the safety of the engaged element.
for the full article, go to http://www.combatsim.com (http://www.combatsim.com)
-Shep
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I think the best example of padlock being done correctly in an environment with more than 20 aircraft in the sky is Mig Alley.
The user enables the padlock on and aircraft he wants to engage and can disengage whenever he wants. If the target moves away from possible head movement position then it disengages.
I thin the best system to impliment in an AH type sim would be a 3-9 line padlock. You can maintain visual on a target that stays between your 12 o clock 3-9 line but once it passes that point you lose padlock.
Personally, I don't need padlock but I don't see how it could hurt to have the option.
RB
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A Vietnam airwar analogy? 30 years after the war in which aircraft we fly here in Aces High occured.
Online sims don't force folks to fly as part of a dedicated and self protecting 'flight' that has 3 guys backing up the *one* who is the only one released to engage the enemy pilot. Thank Cod I'm not forced to fly in a flight every time I log on. I fly to dogfigh, not be someones aide and 6-watcher.
Should you be able to get together 2, 3 or 4 guys then feel free to target fixate. I hope the others in the flight can keep do thier job of keeping your 6 clear because any pilot with half a sense can easily zoom thru and pick you off. Target fixated pilots stick out like a sore thumb <G>
--Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 11-16-1999).]
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IT's actually a Korean War analogy...about 14 years earlier.
Besides, the basic rules of dogfighting apply no matter what era. Speed is life..lose site, lose the fight.. etc..
More often than not, (even in Korea) Flights would break down to individual elements...the wingleader and wingman... That's how I fly in Aces... I cover my wingman as best as I can, and he'll cover mine when the roles are reversed.
The important concept that I was trying to convey is that his tactic was to NEVER take his eyes off the target... his wingman was there to be his eyes in the sky... the wingleaders job was to kill the target... ASAP.
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Sheppard;
Need a wingy? Let me know. I fly Bishops, fighting them dreaded Rocks mostly.
Mino
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Mino,
What an unfortunate twist of fate! I'm a Rook. However, if ya wanna fly over on our team for a while, Wednesday night around 2100-2400 ET would be a good time. We also use Battlecom for voice. Contact me on radio channel 121 in Aces High for details.
Right now, I'm concentrating on honing my wingman skills... and learning from our more experienced prop pilots..they have a lot to teach. Voice radio helps a LOT... because you can constantly keep your wingman apprised of the situation.
-Shep
-Shep
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Mino - my point was that you can't "re-acquire your target instantly" which you seem to have been saying.
It's quite ironical but RL pilots scan the airspace around them in WB/AH snap view mode: acquire a sector, make sure it's safe - move your head the next sector etc. There should not be a "padlock style" wondering around - you'll miss that plane that's coming towards you at the same altitude otherwise...
p.s. Many people in AH/WB are RL pilots btw. I'm not as experienced a pilot as some here but I do have 30 hours of P1... And my claim to fame is that I had a SpitIX flying by ~200 feet below me when I was going on my first qualifying X-country (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I was thrilled to bits to see it flying this close to _me_! Come to think of it - I'm still is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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Lynx,
You're right, they do scan the sky in sections... but once they aquire, they padlock that target and follow it with their eyes and head.
Sounds real cool about the Spit! Were you looking at down 45 degree right? ;-)
-Shep
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Lynx;
Thanks for your reply, I interpreted it as yet another brow beating.
I do not feel that you can instantly "re-aquire" or instantly "acquire" anything. I do feel you can do this rapidly (a few moments). I think that you can re-acquire easier (faster) if the time is short and you have a good idea where the object will be in relation to where it last was.
With more practice, or if your life was on the line, you would be pretty darn good at it.
Thanks again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW;
Quote: p.s. Many people in AH/WB are RL pilots btw. I'm not as experienced a pilot as some here but I do have 30 hours of P1... And my claim to fame is that I had a SpitIX flying by ~200 feet below me when I was going on my first qualifying X-country I was thrilled to bits to see it flying this close to _me_! Come to think of it - I'm still is :End Quote
I bet you had that BABY, Padlocked..... I know that I would have. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-17-1999).]
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Padlock:
'The results of focusing full attention on one opponent to the exclusion of all else[Known as Padlocking]...'
Page 261 of 'Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering' Robert L. Shaw
Point 1: Padlock is as `Realistic' as snap views.
Point 2: HTC has pointed out that a real padlock is very hard to implement.
Question to HTC (Curiosity): You were refering to breaking padlock at the canopy rail. Having flown often before and tracked aircraft in flight, and never had any problems tracking an aircraft in flight as passed thru a canopy rail. As such, I realise you won't implement it in this game, but would it be possible to program a padlock such that `sill line' of the cockpit canopy forced the break in padlock, and not the braces. Upon reaching the sill line, the pilots head view would 'lock' as if holding `his/her' head in that position. upon reaquiring the `target' the view would have to be manually padlocked again, or refer back to `snap views'.
I have stated before that I like padlock for the realism. As such, since we will never have that, would it be possible to just put a pure panning contorl in the cockpit with or without snap views? Then adjust the rate at which the pilots `head' can pan based on the G's? I think that feature would quell all the arguments, since we would be able to manually padlock. (Is pure panning already implemented?) I also havent noticed, but does the G load effect the rate at which the `snap view' action happnes? If not, will a feature such as that be implemented?
Just reaching for the sky HTC. Thanks for the sim though. I know we are early in the beta, and I am already having a blast in this game.
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Ok, Ok, just read the early posts panning enabled...Man this really is a DEAD HORSE.
So how do I enable Panning? Help!!!!
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F8
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This is probably rather late to be jumping in, but...Mino, with all due respect I'm not sure I understand your center field analogy. Are you saying that in your view, padlock merely simulates "having some idea where the con goes so you can reacquire quickly?"
Here's why I'm a little confused...I've never flown a plance, but I have played center field. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Example:
You are playing center outfield for baseball. The batter hits a high looper to left center. You have played up and must run a long distance to catch the ball.
You visually acquire the ball coming off the bat --> You brain computes the vector for intercept --> You take off running to that intercept piont, you are NOT looking at the ball while running --> You re-acquire the ball just before in impacts the ground and make a diving catch.
You did this all with no thought, as to which snap view you must use.
Ummm...You visually acquire the ball off the bat, you estimate an intercept vector, and you take off...but the absolute LAST thing you EVER do is take your eye off the ball. You take your eye off the ball, 99% of the time you'll blow the play. This is why you occasionally see outfielders collide, run into the wall, etc. They lose SA because they have to watch the ball all the way into the glove. Similarly, this is why you drop a ball when you lose it in the sun or against the roof of the Homerdome or something. You can't see it...you have to reacquire...oops too late. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That being the case, padlock pretty much becomes what everyone says it is...a way to get the computer to help you keep your POV on a particular object. I have no opinion either way on whether it's a good thing or not. I've never used it, despite the fact that "losing SA" is my middle name. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Maybe we'll all be using VR headsets a decade from now.
Some of the shots taken at padlock advocates have been pretty harsh, though. Folks, is it really necessary to insult someone just to make a point?
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
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"Folks, is it really necessary to insult someone just to make a point?"
Absolutely.
Someone has to provide conterbalance to all the Barneys in the world.
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No Paddies Please,
Sorry for the disabled, but it's using the computer to do what you should be doing yourself imo. Fixed views provide the best SA. You can keep track of multiple bogies, wingies and the ground all at the same time. No padlock has done that yet. The very idea is to lock onto one target. A bad idea.
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Flathead;
Your point is well taken. I honestly will say that how you describe catching a baseball, is the way it occurs the vast majority of the time. The case of the centerfielder I was trying to describe was the "ability" to do it.
Consider that you can run somewhat faster with your head pointed the same direction as your body. I should have stated that the ball was hit far and high enough so that unless you turned your head and "Ran Like H%ll" you would not have made it to the intecept piont.
I have personally done this, but I won't say I made all the catches. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I will say that I was able to re-acquire the ball before it hit the ground.
I have also lost the ball in the lights, and ran to where I thought it would re-appear. I have managed to make catches in that fashion.
I have jumped over ditches and/or small fences and re-acquired the ball.
IMO, this is just a "Human Animals" instinct, nothing you really can think about it just happens. Probably something to do with catching dinner for the day.
Thanks for your constructive comments.
Mino
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Kier
Thank you!
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What would be a well done Padlock View System (PVS) mean to me? That's a tough one.
1) If you could not see it, then PVS could not track it.
Small gaps in vision due to cockpit window frames, would only be a factor if the target was hidden for an extend period of time.
2) If it is difficult for you to turn your head and eyes to look at it, then PVS can't track it.
IMO this a MAJOR shortcoming of the Snap View System (SVS). Some of the views attained via the SVS require a Voga expert to perform. Considering the Pilot is strapped in, some of these views REALLY STRETCH realism.
PVS should be limited to targets in the FOV of 100 degrees side to side, and -20 to +80 degrees top to bottom. Basically the forward hemisphere only, reduced on the upper and lower edges.
4) "Lock" would not be automatic. It would be broken easier than it is attained.
If a real pilot would keep their padlock, the PVS would keep its lock. Factors such as target visibility to a real pilot are very important. Ground clutter, haze, clouds, camoflage, etc...
5) "Lock" would not function like an "Uncaged Heat Seeker". The pilot must choose his target.
Not just the closest, or greatest threat.
6) There is no automatic re-acquire mode, a broken lock is the same as no lock.
This function would not be altogether Realistic or Un-Realistic.
7) The target must be in the current FOV for the lock to be made.
Pilot must ID the target before locking. Any target can be locked, friendly or hostile.
8) Conditions effecting the pilot directly effect the effectivness of PVS.
Black/Red Outs, violent manuvers, pilot wounded, laughing attacks etc...
9) In mult-target enviorments, the PVS must not be perfect.
PVS must have the ability to slip to an unchosen target, or unlock due to extreme (simulated) confusion of pilot. For example, 3 targets of approximate same distant in FOV.
10) The FOV stays in the position of un-locking.
Just as a pilot thinking "Oh toejam Oh toejam, where did that Bandit go!", and staring at empty space.
Now, to re-state my feelings from the beginning of this MASSIVE thread.
Quote: From a game standpiont HTC considers padlock to be very time comsuming to get it right, and not a so valuable featured to be coded. :End Quote
I agree with this idea completely nothing has changed.
Mino
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Sundog;
Thanks for not saying "Dead COW". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino