Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ghosth on August 11, 2005, 07:46:49 AM
-
Watching the old WWII movies about bombers I came to a solution for the diving bombers problem.
Pilots put their planes on autopilot, bombadiers took control of the plane. Made last minute adjustments, lined up the plane, the sight and let fly.
All Hitech has to do to fix the dive bombing hvy bombers problem. Is to tie bomb drop to autopilot. If the plane hasn't been in level autopilot for 20 seconds either the bombs don't drop. Or they drop 2 miles to the right or left of the target.
Roughly its a matter of programing a single switch that checks autopilot status and time.
For those bombers that historically could dive bomb, that switch is disabled.
For any real bomber fan, it adds realism and immersion. And it brings some sanity back to the main.
Ohh and give us back the hard calibration routine also.
Last, to encourage bombers, give them 2 or 3 LARGE targets per country.. Put all the strat objects for an area in one clump. Add a bunch of nice big factorys. Make it worth while to set up a good approach, figure salvo, delay etc and lay a path. In short, carpet bomb the area the way they actually did.
Put a GV spawn in the middle of the area that can spawn osties to discourage jabo's.
-
20 secs might be to long for that situation as sometimes I can turn and line back up with less the 10 secs to spare and drop on target with accuracy. It should be tied to being in bombardier postion and maybe the rate of climb gauge. If u in a dive it will not release regardless if u in bombardier position or not. I was thinking how some people were suggestion that it just be able to release bombs in bombardier position but if u put plane in dive and at last sec., quick go in to bombardier position and release bombs. One of the reasons I suggest tie it to your climb meter also. if the bombers are in more then a 1k fpm decent, bombs do not release.
-
Most times I count from 12-20 secs Usually landing on 16 as an average.
-
Limiting bomb drop to F6 position or trying to tie it in to autopilot isn't the answer.
The bombers don't need fixing. The PILOTS do.
-
LOL.. your not going to be able to talk to little Jimmy, 12 years old, with a fully loaded lancaster and ask him not to divebomb the piss out of you.
This isn't something you can change through the pilots, we need limitations on the bombers. :rolleyes:
-
You'd be terrible at laws... Think of the first amendment. They can't pass laws that limit people's rights if it's unfair.
You're limiting the right to drop bombs, so to speak. You're passing a law for the kids/newbies/dweebs, but it's a law that unfairly punishes the non-kids/non-newbies/non-dweebs.
-
Your so called "non-kids/non-newbies/non-dweebs" are the ones that do NOT divebomb in heavies. Limiting the ability to drop bombs in a dive or whatever would not affect them. So, it is in fact discouraging the divebombing heavy bombers.
This has almost nothing to do with laws or whatnot as well. Limiting the heavy bomber's ability to divebomb does nothing to prevent dropping bombs, it just limits HOW the bombs are dropped.
-
Originally posted by Krusty
You'd be terrible at laws... Think of the first amendment. They can't pass laws that limit people's rights if it's unfair.
You're limiting the right to drop bombs, so to speak. You're passing a law for the kids/newbies/dweebs, but it's a law that unfairly punishes the non-kids/non-newbies/non-dweebs.
The first amendment also says its unfair for my fun to be ruined by dive-bombing Lancs. :rolleyes:
In no way, shape or form does the requirement for bombs to be dropped in the BOMBardier position from level bomber types punish anyone in this game.
-
This is HTC's world so the 1st amendment means nothing here. If people want to drop bombs...make them learn, we all had to. It's not limiting them, it's making them work for it. I know it's true for fighters. If you want to get decent you have to put you time in. With bombers, theres no real challange. You fly level, the fighters come to you and you don't have to worry about ACMs. Bomb drop is easy even if done as it's suppose to be. I think a lot of the "dweebs" get crushed as fighters and instead of taking the high road and learning, they're drawn to the buffs b/c it's easy. I feel if 1 player(bomber) has the ability to affect so many people by dropping FH's, it should be more difficult.
-
Someone already said it but here goes again. Make them so that you may only drop bombs from the bomb site. B-17, B-24, Lanc, Ki-67. All level bombers. Everything else had the dive capability.
I fly bombers allot and I have never dive bombed with a heavy. The dweebs that try to dive bomb a CV with heavies are idiots. Thats what the light bombers are for...oh wait you can't kill a CV with the light bombers in one pass. Pity, next time bring some friends and share the experiance.
-
if u want to fix the problem just make the structre of the buff weaker so wings break off in a dive
-
Originally posted by 1redrum
if u want to fix the problem just make the structre of the buff weaker so wings break off in a dive
Uhhh... but aren't you assuming that every dive means someone is divebombing then?? Why punish the pilot who flew to 15K+, dropped ord successfully (FROM BOMBSIGHT), and decides to fly the route home on the deck by diving for the deck (within the current parameters of the model)? Weaken them... why? Wings already come off under a load. The plane's modeling doesn't need to be screwed with just to stop carpet bombing from an F3 view. Simply force the F6 position for bomb drop.
GVs would probably like this as well as how often do you see the low formation wiggling this way and that only to then lay down a string right on top of you. Finding a GV in the bombsight is a LOT tougher.
-
Originally posted by Alpo
Uhhh... but aren't you assuming that every dive means someone is divebombing then?? Why punish the pilot who flew to 15K+, dropped ord successfully (FROM BOMBSIGHT), and decides to fly the route home on the deck by diving for the deck (within the current parameters of the model)?
What if the parameters were only changed if you HAD bombs in the bay?
This way if you dropped all your bombs and then dove to the deck you would not be affected.
-
Originally posted by Donzo
What if the parameters were only changed if you HAD bombs in the bay?
I'm not sure how the planes are modeled but let's assume the flight characteristics of the heavies are accurate (with or without loads). It seems to me that you are still asking for a gamey concession in the plane when instead it should be a concession of the pilot (ie. only being able to drop bombs accurately from the bombardier position)
Everyone has stated that the new sight is easier (much easier) than the old calibration. Why change the plane to something less than historical when the solution is staring you in the face with F6 only drops?
I know a big part of the problem will be with the medium/light bombers that did make diving/tactical strikes. Isolating them from the F6 only drop will probably be a pain for HTC but it wouldn't much worse than tweaking models on a plane by plane basis (to something less accurate)
:aok
-
First, do you ever see the bomber pilots wine about the ordinace porkers???...
Secondly I got an idea.....(this under the same premise and skirt of the critics) "RELISM" This use/abuse of the word RELISM by which many insinuate they opperate at some higher game playing level than anyone or everyone else ..... here's my idea... Fighter pilots become more than furballers???..protect CV's? cap own bases ...not just the bases they want to vulch?....escort bombers???...now that would be real!
I'm not here to tell anyone their prespective of how they play their game is right or wrong.......I'm just not agreeing to the RELISM premise by which you put others down !
and honor to friends and foes!
999000
-
Originally posted by SuperDud
This is HTC's world so the 1st amendment means nothing here.
Hey!!! Your right! It is "Htc's world"
Let's all make about 30 post's! Thats how things are done around here! Htc is working, Leave it at that.
Cant wait for Tod, Ah yes Tod.
"THE AI TOOK MY BASE"
"THE AI SHOT ME DOWN THEY ARE TOO GOOD!!!!"
Of course some of you wont let it go and probly go to the MA like you should, The BBS is the one and only stop you need.
I've got to say reading all the whines from grown up's is hilarious.
But dont listen to me, I'm only 17!
"It's the youths fault they whine and... stupid yeah there stupid" blah blah blah. Apparently you never grew up so I cant tell you that, So I will just let you all be. Have a lovely day. :) Love, Spade
PS: No Ghosth I am not talking about you or a few others, You had a idea and you gave it, Others just cant handle that and explode with a post about it.
-
I have no problem with the F6 position being forced, thats the only one I use and it isn't hard. Even for GV bombing. Last night I uped a single B26 at a base under heavy attack, climbed up to 1K leveled off turned over to the spawn, leveled out speed and calibrated. All this within 1 or 2 minuits. Flew on over to where my countrymen were trying to kill this real annoying tiger and dropped a few 1000 pounders on him and boom no more tiger problem. Though usually I use a YAK9T for this kind of thing but the fighters were down. :)
The point of this though is to show that it's not hard to do, just that not very many people are willing to take the time to learn how to do it propperly. It is after all so easy to pop into F3 and make a big fat sloppy bomb drop covering several acres just to hit 1 tank.
Also I usually take a 10K B26 flight to kill CV's and they work really well so I see no reason why if people want to dive bomb the cv they can't use JU88's they carry a similar external bomb load, have about the same speed as the B24 and they are meant to dive bomb.
-
Originally posted by Sp4de
"It's the youths fault they whine and... stupid yeah there stupid" blah blah blah.
Why would anyone say that? :D
-
Originally posted by 999000
First, do you ever see the bomber pilots wine about the ordinace porkers???
Yep. Me. :aok
I've always wanted the barracks/supplies/ord/fuel to be a harder target. Guns vs field stuff is just too easy IMHO.
-
Dive-bombing bombers in boxes are silly.
They ruin the game play.
As long as you give them divebombing box's why not include a nuke? It's all the same. Silly.
You can't limit pilots only software.
This buff crap has brought me almost to the point of leaving the game after ten years.
There is a balance between historical and game play. I maintain that leaning toward the historical side creates the best arena enviroment.
My simple suggestion that can be done tomorrow is perk the boxes. Let the buffers have boxes and dive bomb, just make them pay. I could possibly handle one dive-bombing Lanc. Silly
-
I too fly bombers a lot and I too am not a fan of dive bombing medium and heavy bombers that have the F6 bomb site position. I think restricting bomb drop to the F6 position is the easiest fix to this problem. Currently when you go to F6, the auto trim puts you in a level “autopilot configuration”. If you’re screaming down in excess of 300 mph and you suddenly go to F6, I think the wings will come off of a loaded bomber. Even if it doesn’t strip the wings, it’ll ruin any accuracy they might have from a jabo style attack. My basis for thinking it’ll strip the wings is because I was tooling along at 250 and thought I’d like some more altitude. So I just hit the auto speed (alt x). The next thing I hear is two closely spaced bangs as both wings came off.
If this doesn’t fix the problem, I think the time check for the “autopilot” might work well. However, I think 20 seconds is an eternity and the time need not be so long. A few seconds would easily suffice.
-
Okay lets see some bombers did dive bomb Jimmy stewarts b24's use to dive bomb and strafe german airfields at night. plenty of films of dive bombing big bombs out there.
So you want to stop anyone from doing what you think is impossible. Them why not make reality that a person can't die up another plane over and over to kill a bomber formation, or keep upping to pad others score during a vulch. this is more unreal than a bomber dive bombing.
This is like guys saying Pilots in ww2 didn't HO. In my uncles squadron alone 4 guys died or were shot down during a Headon, ! was p51 against 262 were both crashed into each other, Other was chuck Yeager who got shot down by ho'ing 190. Plus 2 other man of the 357th. Uncle Morris was Ace in ww2 His exacted words " He who shots first tells stories"
Already because so many whines HTC started a collision mode that has cause more problems and Taunting on 200 than its worth in my opinion.
So lets stop more realism and make others fly way YOU want then to fly not how they want to fly.
There were suicide planes on all sides, There were dive bombing by big bombers all sides, Ho'ing all sides, Sneak attacks, Spawn camping ( this was setting up ambushes were you knew tank's had to pass) and of course there was vulching by all sides. but hell lets remove all these too because few want that to stop.
-
Originally posted by SuperDud
This is HTC's world so the 1st amendment means nothing here. If people want to drop bombs...make them learn, we all had to. It's not limiting them, it's making them work for it. I know it's true for fighters. If you want to get decent you have to put you time in. With bombers, theres no real challange. You fly level, the fighters come to you and you don't have to worry about ACMs. Bomb drop is easy even if done as it's suppose to be. I think a lot of the "dweebs" get crushed as fighters and instead of taking the high road and learning, they're drawn to the buffs b/c it's easy. I feel if 1 player(bomber) has the ability to affect so many people by dropping FH's, it should be more difficult.
That is the worst excuse for why some pilots fly bombers. Some fly bombers due to not having the best computer. Or ever think that some of us may like bombers more then fighters? I know its crazy but what if game creators made more WWII games then this one not based on aircraft. Thats insane tho, everyone justs wants to fly a fighter, anyone wo dosnt just sucks at it.
:rolleyes:
-
Before you bomber types get in any more of a hissy, keep in mind that no one's labelled you all as divebombing newbs.
The current setup is ridiculously easy, and it's used in the MA to grief other players. While there are bomber pilots who climb to alt, take escorts, plan routes, etc, they are by far the minority. Asking for 1 simple change to the bombers (current setup is laughable if you use historical premises OR gameplay enhancement as a measure) to improve quality of gameplay in the main isn't the end of the world. If you're a fan of bombers, and do it "the right way", the change wouldn't even affect you. As someone else has said repeatedly in the past, formations are bloated jabo's in the main, and give both the planes, and their legitimate fans, a bad name. (Fun Nazi isn't a term of endearment.)
If you're one of the folks who will up a formation of B26s 100 times and slam it into the side of a CV just to screw those of us who enjoy an actual aerial engagement, then a lot of us don't really care what you think anyway, and if the proposed change takes your fun away, excellent.
-
Originally posted by rod367th
Okay lets see some bombers did dive bomb Jimmy stewarts b24's use to dive bomb and strafe german airfields at night. plenty of films of dive bombing big bombs out there.
Did he do it from outside his aircraft? Did he drop without using the bombsight? Did he attack with the intent and ability to take out a single ground vehicle? Did he fly 3 aircraft at a time? How many films of flights of B24's dive bombing? I've seen films of dedicated dive bombers and diving attack aircraft. I've never seen one of a flight of heavy bombers dive bombing.
It would take the Pilot and co-pilot both pulling on the yoke to pull it out of a steep dive, if they could pull it out at all. Doubtful close to the ground.
-
Go to web site about Jimmy stewart. they didn't dive 5k they would do slight nose down carpet bomb runways.
Brits used dive bombing lancs on sub ports all the time. low level attacks
bridge busters low level dive bombing list can go on and on. including low level dive bombing of Romainian OIL fields after 1000 bombers lost at hi alt.
-
Its simple...limit heavy bombers to drop in F6 view only. There done. Fixed.
As for the sight, both AH1 and AH2 have easy bombsights. No need to calibrate alt or wind direction (in MA there is no wind). You want a tough sight to master...install B-17 Flying Fotress. The Mighty 8th. Now THAT was a difficult bombsight to master. My pet peeve is the convergence on bombers.
In AH1 we could pick our convergence. In AH2 its fixed somewhere between D600 and D800. So I have guys sitting out there on my 6 at D1100 nailing me with 20MM while I waste 2/3rds of my rounds hitting him with useless .50 cals.
I have done the low-level rake the spawn point or CV on occasion...because the enemy does it too.
I find for CV's bombing at 10K feet and a 1 ship length lead works wonders.
Put in the F6 only bombing switch for the heavies. Don't bother me none. I like climbing to alt bombing and picking off LA-LAs, SPITS and 38s trying to climb up to kill me. Besides...do you know how long you can glide a B-24 from 20K? A long long long long ways ;-) But if you never take them above 2K...you'll never know ;-)
Later.
Softail
-
How about limiting External view in bombers under a certian alt. Only able to use it above a certian alt.
-
Originally posted by 999000
...escort bombers???...now that would be real!
999000
:rofl like you need an esscort.
-
Originally posted by BlueJ1
How about limiting External view in bombers under a certian alt. Only able to use it above a certian alt.
That would eliminate our ability to man guns at low altitudes when we're already most vulnerable to fighters. Also there is a place for low level drops from around 4K.
Limiting drop ability to the F6 position is still the best option. It's simple, it'll work and it won't bother guys who already use the bomb sight at all.
I do a lot more damage for a lot longer by bombing "the right way" from heavies than anybody else who is doing jabo's in a heavy.
-
Originally posted by ChopSaw
That would eliminate our ability to man guns at low altitudes when we're already most vulnerable to fighters. Also there is a place for low level drops from around 4K.
Limiting drop ability to the F6 position is still the best option. It's simple, it'll work and it won't bother guys who already use the bomb sight at all.
I do a lot more damage for a lot longer by bombing "the right way" from heavies than anybody else who is doing jabo's in a heavy.
True. Good catch.
-
The other thing to keep in mine on the external view is that a single B-17 / 24 had 10 crew members. 8 had eyes in the sky and two worked navigation and radio.
The external view is to reflect the 8 x 3 = 24 pairs of eyes looking around for the enemy. If you wish to restrict the views...the smaller bombers with smaller crews would be more apt for this adjustment.
It was very hard to "sneak up" on a box of bombers. About the only way it was done was to come out of the sun onto em. So the external views on the heavies is a decent comprimise.
I just hate it when they fighters pilots learn to attack from 12 o'clock high at 3.5K above. They are almost impossible to hit...those bastages. Yes....you know who you are.
Softail
-
Fixing the gamey bs bomber model will never happen. Its what keeps the newbs who come to play AH, playing. They have to have an ez mode to fall back on because learning how to fight in a fighter is far too difficult to handle. That would mean they'd have to try, and put some time into getting good at it. The gamey BS bomb drop model bread and butter of todays AH. As long as HT likes money, the arcade bomber model will always exist, and bombers will always roll inverted into a dive, fully loaded with bombs at 450mph drop them on hangers and fly away 100% intact.
Someone want to explain to me the physics involved in safely dropping bombs at 2-3 negative G's? Or how its even posible? Not just bombers, but any plane carrying bombs.
-
Ghosth said
Last, to encourage bombers, give them 2 or 3 LARGE targets per country.. Put all the strat objects for an area in one clump. Add a bunch of nice big factorys. Make it worth while to set up a good approach, figure salvo, delay etc and lay a path. In short, carpet bomb the area the way they actually did.
I have said the below before and I think it would add a hell of a lot to the game, perhaps HT could leave the MA as is and make changes to the Axis vs Allies Arena
From previous posts I have made
Well its not like Buff were hitting airfields all that much in WWII (correct me if I am wrong)
Would be nice to have a big city REAL BIG in each country....
Once all the Buffs got done bombing it to hell and the popualtion moral hit zero then map reset.....
1- Stops point less field milk running
2- Gives Buffs 1 main target so they would tend to fly togeather more
3- Gives you a buff alley so that fighters can do what they should be doing ie Buff hunting (Hey I love to furball to so dont say it)
4- Would give attack fighters a reason to attack Buff hangers at fields closer to the CIty ( imagine buff pilots complaining about attack pilots dropping buff hangers lol)
5- If the number of players on is low puffy and auto ack in the "City" increases to stop milk running....
Just my opinion mind you
What would make Buffing Better
- Hard calibration
- Maximum angles for drop Someone did a hell of a post on this subject
A couple of perk buffs Like
- The 4 Engine AR234 come to mind (Dont know if it flew much)
- The transport Version of the Ar234 (Super Goon)
- The 14 50cal B25
Other Perk options like:
- Changing formations
- Adding Planes to a formation (Should be REALLY COSTLY)
- Special Bombs (minlets smoke stuff like that)
And on a final Note
Morpheus said
Fixing the gamey bs bomber model will never happen. Its what keeps the newbs who come to play AH, playing. They have to have an ez mode to fall back on because learning how to fight in a fighter is far too difficult to handle.
I know what you are saying, but as someone who loves a below treetop furball, I also love Buffing. So its not just the noobs who fly buffs, its furballers as well (yeah I suck but it not the kill its the trill of the fight)
Unfortunately the Easy mode Buffing has made it boring. the most exciting this is getting a fully loaded lanc off a small airfield.
Of course I hate to see a good furball or GV battle ruined by a buff unless of course it is going to serve an actual purpose like an actual base capture.
Later all
-
Morph,
I do agree that bombing is far to easy. I also understand your point that dropping FHs and dive bombing in bombers is stupidity. But, I do not fly bombers because I dont have the will to put the time into learning fighters. I completly enjoy flying bombers far more then I do fighters. Not every pilot has to like fighters. Flying bombers used to be a skill, now its in easy mode.
The only reasons that I can surmise that those bomber pilots choose to hit bases is for the lack of worthy targets and those few who just like to piss poeple off and be party poopers.
-
Originally posted by Ghosth
Ohh and give us back the hard calibration routine also.
Ghosth I know from the BBS that you aren't the "Punish the players type A" kinda guy. I agree with the dive bombing hvy bombers as probably the stupidest thing i have ever seen in Ah since i came here.
But the problem with the "Hard bomb site" was that of connection and lag as with anything else. We have very competent Pilots in our squad that cant get a decent result even out of todays bomb site settings. We are just now seeing large bomber missions in the MA again. To change the setting back to the other way would certainly cause Bomber formation mission to sharply decline as it did when it was first introduced. I think this would be a sad occurrence.
-
But the problem with the "Hard bomb site" was that of connection and lag
I am on dial up from Australia and can usually bomb a mouse at 10,000 ft, My ping is normally around the 400 mark....
I have to admit that lately I have had some bad drops but I think that was due to a rushed calibration (holding down the Y key and counting), If I give it a good 10-15 seconds I am normally fine.
I am going to test this out tonight when I get home.
-
My god you guys funny, Lets fix what some think is wrong. I want my game my way. This game is built for all to enjoy. Not just fighters, Not GV'ers and not bombers. Dale has built many SIMS over the years. And probally most quaified to know, what is right and what is fair. Then anyone person in game.
They HTC think hard and long before making changes. So many say this Bomber guns lazer bullets, these usally guys who come straight up 6 then whine cause they die. Gv'ers who complain that this guy or that guys tank unkillable or takes 10 shots. If you play long enough it goes both ways.
so Lets say okay 1 bomber formation no dive bombing. But then 1 death in fighter or gv and thats it you can't fly rest of TOD since this is realistic oh wait Most would cancel accounts. I wonder why HTC makes things seem unfair to some lol.
P.S. If you can't kill bombers low you surely not going to be able to kil high. killing bombers is easy as long as you take your time.
-
Wrong whine thread, Rod. This one's about divebombing, not defensive guns. If you can make a case for divebombing lancasters as improving gameplay, please do so. If you're just posting to be a smartass, please don't.
-
so Lets say okay 1 bomber formation no dive bombing. But then 1 death in fighter or gv and thats it you can't fly rest of TOD since this is realistic oh wait Most would cancel accounts. I wonder why HTC makes things seem unfair to some lol.
lol Rod you're a funny guy. I love ya man but one thing there has nothing to do with the other.
If we were to drop drop bombs in a real bomber the way some drop bombs here, the bombs would go through the top of the fuleselage, the wings would rip off and you'd be a flaming wreck right down the the ground.
Tell me why its ok to strive for accurate FM's for fighters and bombers yet cut corners around all the other stuff dealing with a bomber? Since when did bombs shoot out of the bomb bay? That's what they have to be doing to be dropped while the plane is in a negative G dive... Tell me how often that happened. Tell me how often it happened with fighter/attack planes dropping bombs. A bomber can be at any angle of attack yet still let its bombs go with no problem at all..
-
Originally posted by mussie
I am on dial up from Australia and can usually bomb a mouse at 10,000 ft, My ping is normally around the 400 mark....
I have to admit that lately I have had some bad drops but I think that was due to a rushed calibration (holding down the Y key and counting), If I give it a good 10-15 seconds I am normally fine.
I am going to test this out tonight when I get home.
mussie.
You wont be able to test what were are talking about off line.
You would need HT to set the flight mode flags to include "The Calibrated Bombsite" like it was before. To the On posistion...and then test it online in an arena with 400+ players.
Your off line test will be inconclusive because in offline mode or even H2H your connection issues and or video issues will be much different than while playing in an arena jam packed with players.
-
Originally posted by Morpheus
Fixing the gamey bs bomber model will never happen. Its what keeps the newbs who come to play AH, playing. They have to have an ez mode to fall back on because learning how to fight in a fighter is far too difficult to handle. That would mean they'd have to try, and put some time into getting good at it. The gamey BS bomb drop model bread and butter of todays AH. As long as HT likes money, the arcade bomber model will always exist, and bombers will always roll inverted into a dive, fully loaded with bombs at 450mph drop them on hangers and fly away 100% intact.
Someone want to explain to me the physics involved in safely dropping bombs at 2-3 negative G's? Or how its even posible? Not just bombers, but any plane carrying bombs.
We can see that HTC is willing to change things if they’re too simple and make them somewhat harder. From what I understand early AH1 had no bomb site as we know it today. Rather it was like what we see in the training arena. A green X marks the spot. Next came the Norden bomb site and now we have a slightly modified Norden modeling. The only difference between the original Norden and the one we have now is you don’t have to click on the map with your mouse to indicate target altitude. My feeling is this is a good change. Often I’d get a varying report on the target altitude with only slight changes in mouse pointer placement. It was a pain and not representative of how a bombardier would do it. They had the altitude of the target and just input it into the sight.
As a bomber pilot I like the change to a harder style of bombing. Additionally, if you read the posting here of other bomber pilots, you’ll see that they don’t care for the heavies to be used as dive bombers. I think that eliminating the ability to use heavy bombers in this fashion would enhance the game. As far as having a so called ez mode for “the newbs”, I don’t buy it. People who need an ez mode aren’t the type to stick with this game anyway. They run out their two weeks and leave. I’m sure HTC knows that. The “bread and butter” for HTC are people who come to this game and stay because they enjoy the challenge and contest. Contrary to what you and seemingly most of the Blue Knights feel, that includes activities other than fighter piloting.
I agree with the need to eliminate dive bombing heavies or dropping bombs from anything in a negative G mode, but I have yet to see how a heavy can achieve 450 mph. The wings come off far before that speed. Your disdain for bombers should not lead you to exaggerate.
-
Morpheus Brits used lancs low level slight dive to kill sub pens. USE made killing bridges art form low slight dives. I like to Fly fighter bomb and gv. so it s not a bombers whine. plenty of films out there including Jimmy stewart raid on german airbase. That show divebombing big bombers. granted not norm but was done.In My opinion if done real world should be able here. tho I hate suiciders on cv's like next guy but its part of game and I never suicide cv but will defend others right too. Same as bombers Hq runs stopped when 163's came out. because people whined about 1 guy knocking out radar. Then when still hit whines got HQ harden so now unless your out numbered and being beaten bad. only time your dar gone. should be other way around if you don't want to defend HQ then its your fault no dar. But hey whines work this whine about bombers may work tooo.
next whine will probally be guys wanting it mandatory for others to up a vulch base...... Guess bad mood better stop.
only thing that needs changeing first is troops need to be killed by 2-3k not lone a6m.
-
Originally posted by ChopSaw
We can see that HTC is willing to change things if they’re too simple and make them somewhat harder. From what I understand early AH1 had no bomb site as we know it today. Rather it was like what we see in the training arena. A green X marks the spot.
No there was no LCS (Lead Computing Sight). It was simply get into the Bomb Scope and drop when the cross hair's croosed the target.
Originally posted by ChopSaw
Next came the Norden bomb site and now we have a slightly modified Norden modeling. The only difference between the original Norden and the one we have now is you don’t have to click on the map with your mouse to indicate target altitude.
No actually the old Norden Site required that you not only click on the map to set Altitude. But you also had to use the joystick to freeze the cross hairs on a fixed ground object while you held the "Y" key down to set Speed. Just a tad of connection glitch or hicup and your speed calibration would suffer. Sometimes quite severly. You might have to go round 2 or even 3 passes till you were sure that everything went smooth before you could have confidence that you would hit your target. The proof was in the sharp decline of Hvy Bomber usage in game. It really sucked not to see the formations being used. While i fully support any efferot to stop Dive bombing in hvy bombers. I also support any effort that will not cause the sharp decline of hvy bombers in game like we suffered around August 2002 which carried untill the Bombsite was modified to its current state.
-
Originally posted by Mugzeee
No there was no LCS (Lead Computing Sight). It was simply get into the Bomb Scope and drop when the cross hair's croosed the target.
I did say it was "like" what we see in the training arena today. "Like" as in similar to. Not exactly the same. If simply going to the bomb sight and dropping when the cross hairs hit the target without any manual calibration isn't a lead computing sight, then what is it?
Originally posted by Mugzeee
No actually the old Norden Site required that you not only click on the map to set Altitude. But you also had to use the joystick to freeze the cross hairs on a fixed ground object while you held the "Y" key down to set Speed. Just a tad of connection glitch or hicup and your speed calibration would suffer. Sometimes quite severly. You might have to go round 2 or even 3 passes till you were sure that everything went smooth before you could have confidence that you would hit your target. The proof was in the sharp decline of Hvy Bomber usage in game. It really sucked not to see the formations being used. While i fully support any efferot to stop Dive bombing in hvy bombers. I also support any effort that will not cause the sharp decline of hvy bombers in game like we suffered around August 2002 which carried untill the Bombsite was modified to its current state..
Unless you know something I don't, if you do tell me, we still have to hold those crosshairs on a ground object while holding down on the Y key for speed calibration. As I stated, the only difference between the old modeling and the current is clicking your mouse pointer on the clipboard map for target altitude. It was a minor annoyance in AH1, but not one that hurt my accuracy unless I clicked in just the wrong spot and got the target altitude wrong.
-
Chop you do NOT need to hold the crosshairs on a ground object anymore -- that disappeared with the map click. Now the enitre calibration is tied to holding the Y down long enough to get an accurate read on airspeed, and then matching the true airspeed (E6B) to the calibrated one. If the two match at drop, you have laser guided accuracy. I strongly suspect that post calibration speed changes, rather than connection issues, accounts for difficulties with calibration accuracy.
Even though the current system is very easy and precise, I dont think the calibration mechanics should be changed. As others have aptly posted, Buffs give developing pilots a chance to do something successfully while their fighter skills progres up the very steep learning curve. I moved down that path, and buffs kept me in the game -- when otherwise I might have given up.
However, I strongly believe that the "easy mode" advantage bombers have woudl not suffer in the least from having realistic angle restrictions imposed.
It is unreasonable -- and downright silly -- to be able to drop bombs through the top of your bomber, especially when the program requires you to have the bomb bay doors open before doing so!!
Journeymen aces high players would lose absolutely nothing if the B-17 was limited to a 30 degree drop angle, but that simple change woudl move AH from an arcade box bomber game to a simulation.
If interested in details, see my sig line.....
(and I'm about ready to post on the Lancaster's bomb bay)
-
Rod367th. OK, so there were instances where low level buffs were used. No problem. Did they Dive Bomb? Or just come in at low level? What were there losses? Did they repeat this as a standard or abandon it due to the losses incurred?
You can keep the low-level buffs. Just like the Lancs that hit the sub pens. But if you do, you have to give the bases multiple Flak Batteries of 88mm AA. Plus multiple Flak Batteries of smaller AA.
Did the Jimmy Stewart Video show Buffs looping over in formation after dive bombing and coming in again? Just curious.
As for dive bombing being a Newbie thing, the main dive bombing buff drivers I see (we know who they are) are not new. But lately, I have seen new players copying it. Gee, why learn to do it right if I can up 3 buffs for one life and drop 40,000 lbs. of bombs on a stationary Ostwind and got a GV kill. Yeah, he shot down two of my buffs, and put 5 Ostie rounds into my remaining buff, but I landed that 1 GV kill. I am a Great Buff pilot.
Solution: Bombs can only be dropped from the F6 position. You have to Calibrate from the F6 position just prior to the drop. No, dive, hop to F6 and start punching the button.
Or, you can put in the 5 manable 88s at each base and field. Or give me a "Formation of Ostwinds" for each life.
LOL, if HTC fixed the Buff Dive Bombing problem with the F6 fix, the whining would go on for months. Just imagine if people had to learn to do it right.
This fix would also cure the B-17s coming in with grass stains on their belly and popping up at the last moment to drop. Of course giving us the German 88mm Flak would cure the whole thing. (Wish List sorry. :p )
LTARsqrl <> AKA: 40,000 LBS. Target ;)
-
Originally posted by Simaril
Chop you do NOT need to hold the crosshairs on a ground object anymore -- that disappeared with the map click. Now the enitre calibration is tied to holding the Y down long enough to get an accurate read on airspeed, and then matching the true airspeed (E6B) to the calibrated one. If the two match at drop, you have laser guided accuracy. I strongly suspect that post calibration speed changes, rather than connection issues, accounts for difficulties with calibration accuracy.
Even though the current system is very easy and precise, I dont think the calibration mechanics should be changed. As others have aptly posted, Buffs give developing pilots a chance to do something successfully while their fighter skills progres up the very steep learning curve. I moved down that path, and buffs kept me in the game -- when otherwise I might have given up.
Son of a gun. My apologies Mugzeee. I stand corrected. I just went to the arena and verified for myself what Simaril just updated me on. I’ve been holding Y down while using the joystick to hold the crosshairs steady. You guys are right. All you have to do is sit there and hold the Y key down and let it do its thing automatically. Hmmm…..that is easy. Perhaps a little too easy. I was able to hit my targets in AH1 with a little practice and it didn’t seem all that hard. Manually calibrating for speed never seemed that hard to me. Could be I just have a great connection, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
-
I'm with the F6 lobby for level bombers.
see my link for my whole take re attackers and bombers and how attack perks could be used.
-
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
You can keep the low-level buffs. Just like the Lancs that hit the sub pens. But if you do, you have to give the bases multiple Flak Batteries of 88mm AA. Plus multiple Flak Batteries of smaller AA.
Solution: Bombs can only be dropped from the F6 position. You have to Calibrate from the F6 position just prior to the drop. No, dive, hop to F6 and start punching the button.
Or, you can put in the 5 manable 88s at each base and field. Or give me a "Formation of Ostwinds" for each life.
LOL, if HTC fixed the Buff Dive Bombing problem with the F6 fix, the whining would go on for months. Just imagine if people had to learn to do it right.
This fix would also cure the B-17s coming in with grass stains on their belly and popping up at the last moment to drop. Of course giving us the German 88mm Flak would cure the whole thing. (Wish List sorry. :p )
LTARsqrl <> AKA: 40,000 LBS. Target ;)
If you put in those 88mm flak guns, isn't that going to kill a lot of fighter pilots as well? I can't imagine that would be too popular.
I support having to drop bombs from the F6 position. Having to calibrate just before we drop? No way. Often we have to be on guns that close to base. When you go to F6 the plane goes into automatic level flight. I would think that'd ruin your aim with the bombs anyway. I can't say for sure on that since I've never used a heavy that way and I never will. It's an inferior way to use the heavy bombers. It's not as effective as doing the correct way.
-
I understand the fighter on you six situation as far as calibrating before drop. But if you are in your guns, how do you know when you should drop anyway? You still need to be in your bombsight for a few seconds anyway before you drop. And calibration only needs to be 2 seconds. Longer for more accurate. If you did a good calibration prior to that, a 2 second calibration would let you know if it were good.
As for the 88 flaks, yes, it would kill fighters. But then porking would be a tad bit harder too, now wouldn't it? I look at the 88s like the 5"er on CVs. People don't complain as much about them now do they? You just have to work harder to kill/Pork a CV.
LTARsqrl <>
:aok
-
Yes USA decided low level in roamina was wtg after losing over ithnk it was 700 bombers 1 night. at hi alt. 88's had harder time hitting low bombers then high flying st8 bombers.
Sure chagne bomber to f6 only mode put vh base back to 1 hanger. But harden Troops and ammo so 1 lone a6m can't take out all 3 before any other fix. HTC says 1 guy should make others play their way thats why harden HQ. But now a lone 190 pilot or la7 can kill ord troops multi bases.
If Men didn't know to duck when fighter comes to base war wouldv'e been 30 days not 6 years........................ .........
-
That raid you refer to was "Operation Tidal Wave" on the oil fields at Ploesti.
Taken from Flight Journal: Ploesti B-24: Utah Man
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200404/ai_n9383170
Within days, the idle plant was brought on line to replace lost production, and the Allies thought it would be impractical to try repeating such a costly mission. Loss rates of more than 30 percent could not be borne. Unescorted long-range, low-level attacks by heavy bombers against defended targets disappeared from the options open to the USAAF, never to return.
Rod367th, you said:
Yes USA decided low level in roamina was wtg after losing over ithnk it was 700 bombers 1 night. at hi alt. 88's had harder time hitting low bombers then high flying st8 bombers.
I think you ment was NOT the wtg.
LTARsqrl <>
-
Originally posted by rod367th
Yes USA decided low level in roamina was wtg after losing over ithnk it was 700 bombers 1 night. at hi alt. 88's had harder time hitting low bombers then high flying st8 bombers.
I would ask you to document ANY loss of 700 bombers in 1 night by either the USAAF or the RAF. Or any other WW2 Air Force for that matter.
The "Black Thursday" raid on Schwienfurt was, IIRC, the worst day for losses in the 8th AF.
In the final tally, Headquarters 8th Air Force reported that 251 B-17s had departed on the mission, 60 had failed to return, 5 had crashed in England because of battle damage, 12 had to be scrapped because of crash landings or battle damage, and 121 had to be repaired before being flown again. Even worse, 600 men were lost over enemy territory, and there were 5 dead and 43 wounded flyers in the B-17s that did return.
-
Low level tactics were used in the Aleutian islands after the Japanese invaded. B17s and B-24s were used at low alts because of poor weather conditions at high alt alot of the time.
-
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
I understand the fighter on you six situation as far as calibrating before drop. But if you are in your guns, how do you know when you should drop anyway? You still need to be in your bombsight for a few seconds anyway before you drop. And calibration only needs to be 2 seconds. Longer for more accurate. If you did a good calibration prior to that, a 2 second calibration would let you know if it were good.
As for the 88 flaks, yes, it would kill fighters. But then porking would be a tad bit harder too, now wouldn't it? I look at the 88s like the 5"er on CVs. People don't complain as much about them now do they? You just have to work harder to kill/Pork a CV.
Because when in our guns external view we can see our approximate angle to the target and jump into the F6 position to drop bombs using the sight. I've done this many times with fighter aircraft that are waiting to jump me when they think I'll be off guns and on the sight. There isn't time to calibrate just before a drop. They say 2 seconds is the minimum. It's not the minimum for a good drop, just a sloppy one. I'd much prefer the harder sight calibrating method of AH1 than have what you're suggesting. It isn't needed and would be a royal pain. Only being able to drop from F6 should solve the problem effectively and simply.
As for the 88's...yes it would make it harder for fighters to pork fields....also harder for them to vulch, now wouldn't it. Also harder to cap a field and if town placement isn't extended away from base, it'll make landing troops difficult, now wouldn't it. The reason people, bombers at least, don't complain about the 5" guns on cv's is because they're all lined up so that when we bomb the cv we get them anyway. I bomb strats on a field from 14K. Your 88mm's would pose me a problem, now wouldn't they. I do, as a matter of fact, get hit by somebody on those cv 5" guns even when I'm at 10K and somewhat above.
-
ChopSaw:
Because when in our guns external view we can see our approximate angle to the target and jump into the F6 position to drop bombs using the sight. I've done this many times with fighter aircraft that are waiting to jump me when they think I'll be off guns and on the sight. There isn't time to calibrate just before a drop. They say 2 seconds is the minimum. It's not the minimum for a good drop, just a sloppy one. I'd much prefer the harder sight calibrating method of AH1 than have what you're suggesting. It isn't needed and would be a royal pain. Only being able to drop from F6 should solve the problem effectively and simply.
So if you’re that exact, why even go to the F6 view? As far as 2 seconds minimum, it can be accurate. If you do a good calibration before, you would have a good calibration with the 2 seconds also. Try it sometime. It works well. The only variable, if you will notice, is the altitude and speed. If your altitude remains the same and the 2-second calibration is the same, bingo.
ChopSaw:
As for the 88's...yes it would make it harder for fighters to pork fields....also harder for them to vulch, now wouldn't it. Also harder to cap a field and if town placement isn't extended away from base, it'll make landing troops difficult, now wouldn't it.
So you’re looking to be able to bomb with impunity? To vulch with impunity? How long does it take a coordinated strike to take down the Ack at a base? I never said to make the Flak 88s bullet proof.
Yes, it would make all those things more difficult. It would take more teamwork to capture a base. One lone wolf couldn't destroy one entire side’s ability to advance the battlefront.
LTARsqrl <>
-
I say make a spit factory that will knock out spit16's.....put some killer ack at that factory so you cant bomb it at low alt......If you build it they will come....even fighter jocks will be in buffs trying to knock out those stinking 16's!:aok
-
Originally posted by louman
I say make a spit factory that will knock out spit16's.....
It's been done in another game. It seems some old features from other games will stay archived in those games. Btw, it WAS fun to knock out airplane factories and thereby limit planesets available to that country for a period of time (akin to taking down radar in a country in AH). It actually gave people something to strive for iso just having a loss of planes as a result of your side having one too many players flying. In fact, if we were beiing overwhelmed a mission would be planned to go knock out some factories and even the odds. These missions were a part of that particular MA (not unlike ours) and not just a scenario. There was no "leveling of planesets" for numbers. Your undermanned country got up and leveled the field.
It was also mentioned that level bombing use of the nordon bombsight required doing x, y and z to get a decent drop on target. What many people fail to realize is until radar bombing came along the odds of effectively, consistantly hitting the target were pretty low. Yet AH provides a high level of success with the miminum of fuss.
I would have thought it was enough to take away the requirement to accurately aim at a target using some sort of "simulated" sophistication would have been enough to make any would be buff muffin (B-52's were called that, btw) a happy camper yet still allow for a little bit of realism (albeit much more realistic with a few drinks in you). When dive bombing level bombers became an allowable form of fun it merely turned the realism of bombing into an arcade game. But, it does hold the attention of the latch key kiddies!!!
What's more amazing is we spend an inordinate amount of time in the TA showing folks the realism imparted in the flight models of the various fighters and how to use them effectively so the game is more enjoyable, only to have the arcade part of it to show up in bombing. Can you say "Ah maze zing?" :)
Damned Ren
The Damned Air Group
-
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
ChopSaw:
So if you’re that exact, why even go to the F6 view? As far as 2 seconds minimum, it can be accurate. If you do a good calibration before, you would have a good calibration with the 2 seconds also. Try it sometime. It works well. The only variable, if you will notice, is the altitude and speed. If your altitude remains the same and the 2-second calibration is the same, bingo.
ChopSaw:
So you’re looking to be able to bomb with impunity? To vulch with impunity? How long does it take a coordinated strike to take down the Ack at a base? I never said to make the Flak 88s bullet proof.
Yes, it would make all those things more difficult. It would take more teamwork to capture a base. One lone wolf couldn't destroy one entire side’s ability to advance the battlefront.
LTARsqrl <>
I still find your reasoning flawed in this. I actually jump back and forth between guns and the F6 sight. In this fashion I constantly update my estimate of when I need to be on the bomb sight. I'm also jumping between the two to make sure I'm lined up correctly to hit the targets I desire.
Being able to release bombs from the F6 position only is the fix we need. This last minute calibration suggestion is an encumbrance that is not necessary and I’m sure would interest fighter aircraft looking to kill me a great deal. Even the way things are, there are guys that sit just beyond gun range trying to estimate when I’m going to be on the sight so they can rip in and destroy my run and a bomber or two.
Am I looking to bomb with impunity? Yes. If being at 14K and not wanting to get shot by a manned ground gun is impunity, then yes. The only thing that should be able to reach me is a fighter or the occasional lucky hit by the puffy ack. One “lone wolf” hasn’t got a chance to stop the advance on a front. Invest some time and come up and get me. It isn’t that hard. People do it all the time. I invest 15 to 20 minutes to get to altitude and speed not to mention the time to target once that’s all settled. Of course it would be a lot easier if you could do it by just hopping into a gun on the ground and pounding away. Is that perhaps what you had in mind?
Truthfully? I think your 88mm flak would be a larger pain for fighter aircraft than my bombers, but I’m not going to applaud their appearance if it happens. Something I find very unlikely.
-
What I am saying is if these dive bombing buff drivers have to sit in the sight for a second, they won't be able to set salvo for 20, .05 delay and dive, then hit F6, and the bomb drop switch. Yes, going to F6 will make the buffs level out, but not before these carpet bombers would be able to release their ords. These guys don't want the challenge of High altitude bombing, they want to bomb, get kills and get more buffs. It is very rare that they go home. They don't care. They carpet bomb a V-Base get 3 kills to the cost of their one life (3 Planes, one life) and if they die, so what?
Dive bombing buffs are a no skill way to get kills. What kind of skill does it take to fly 3 planes into a base and carpet bomb? You get 3 planes, by the time they shoot down 2, you can still drop. Lancasters can take up to 7 hits from an Ostwind. A 37mm projectile hitting a aircraft moving 300 miles per hour verses 3 Lancaster’s dropping 9, 1000 lb. bombs and 1, 4000 lb. bomb. Thus creating a kill zone that is about 100 yards wide by about 1000 yards long. And dropping on a vehicle that if not stopped is doing at best 25 miles per hour. Gee, what skill that must take. Oooohhh. What a stud that buff driver is. He just dropped 39,000 lbs. of bombs directly onto some virtually stationary vehicles. That is skill. His mother is so proud of him. He has move up from his Nintendo.
Or is the buff driver that drops from 10,000 feet and predicts where a vehicle will be to kill it. Or has to swing wide to line up for his drop and hit each target in one pass. That buff driver earns my respect. That takes some time and skill. Not only to hit the target, but to survive the hordes of fighters trying to kill ya. You might make it back, Skippy just lost all his buffs and went back for more. He doesn't care. Instant gratification. No skill.
That I think is what is a major problem with this game. Give me a vehicle or weapon that will allow me to defend against that lame tactic. Or fix the problem by making the Buff drivers have to use the bomber as it was intended.
I just think that if the F6 is the only thing they have to do, they will just pop and drop. Still dive-bombing.
For those that spend 90% of their time in the air, they probably think this is a dumb thread and could care less. For those that do it, they will defend there right to dive bomb no matter how lame it is. For those that spend time on the ground, or have Lancaster’s dive bombing the runways and looping over to do it again, it is a problem. As I recall, Jimmy Stewart was a B-25 driver, not a Lancaster driver and I am sure he never dove in and looped his buffs in formation 500 feet off the ground.
OK, My 2 cents.
LTARsqrl <>
:aok
-
forcing them to F6 is the greaTEST hindrance we can give them--it WILL hose accuracy a bit, and bust some wings
-
NOTICE: As of today everyone will play "my way". I`ll get back to ya on exactly what that is.
End of discussion.
:furious
-
Hey guys, why not do what the game Planetside has done with its bomber? Put in an angle lock on the bombers so that when the plane is diving or climbing over a certain degree it locks the bombs from dropping. An example would be like locking the B17s bombs at 6 degrees down, this way the pilot can have some room to climb or dive but if they dive to much it locks the bombs from dropping.
-
Originally posted by louman
I say make a spit factory that will knock out spit16's.....put some killer ack at that factory so you cant bomb it at low alt......If you build it they will come....even fighter jocks will be in buffs trying to knock out those stinking 16's!:aok
And a bomber factory to JABO. Even the fighter jocks would be for that. Great idea!:aok
-
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
What I am saying is if these dive bombing buff drivers have to sit in the sight for a second, they won't be able to set salvo for 20, .05 delay and dive, then hit F6, and the bomb drop switch. Yes, going to F6 will make the buffs level out, but not before these carpet bombers would be able to release their ords. These guys don't want the challenge of High altitude bombing, they want to bomb, get kills and get more buffs. It is very rare that they go home. They don't care. They carpet bomb a V-Base get 3 kills to the cost of their one life (3 Planes, one life) and if they die, so what?
Dive bombing buffs are a no skill way to get kills. What kind of skill does it take to fly 3 planes into a base and carpet bomb? You get 3 planes, by the time they shoot down 2, you can still drop. Lancasters can take up to 7 hits from an Ostwind. A 37mm projectile hitting a aircraft moving 300 miles per hour verses 3 Lancaster’s dropping 9, 1000 lb. bombs and 1, 4000 lb. bomb. Thus creating a kill zone that is about 100 yards wide by about 1000 yards long. And dropping on a vehicle that if not stopped is doing at best 25 miles per hour. Gee, what skill that must take. Oooohhh. What a stud that buff driver is. He just dropped 39,000 lbs. of bombs directly onto some virtually stationary vehicles. That is skill. His mother is so proud of him. He has move up from his Nintendo.
Or is the buff driver that drops from 10,000 feet and predicts where a vehicle will be to kill it. Or has to swing wide to line up for his drop and hit each target in one pass. That buff driver earns my respect. That takes some time and skill. Not only to hit the target, but to survive the hordes of fighters trying to kill ya. You might make it back, Skippy just lost all his buffs and went back for more. He doesn't care. Instant gratification. No skill.
That I think is what is a major problem with this game. Give me a vehicle or weapon that will allow me to defend against that lame tactic. Or fix the problem by making the Buff drivers have to use the bomber as it was intended.
I just think that if the F6 is the only thing they have to do, they will just pop and drop. Still dive-bombing.
For those that spend 90% of their time in the air, they probably think this is a dumb thread and could care less. For those that do it, they will defend there right to dive bomb no matter how lame it is. For those that spend time on the ground, or have Lancaster’s dive bombing the runways and looping over to do it again, it is a problem. As I recall, Jimmy Stewart was a B-25 driver, not a Lancaster driver and I am sure he never dove in and looped his buffs in formation 500 feet off the ground.
OK, My 2 cents.
LTARsqrl <>
:aok
I agree. Eliminating dive bombing is the goal. We only disagree on the method to achieve this. Given what you’ve said is common practice the F6 limitation may not, in itself, be sufficient. I still think it’s important to create that F6 limitation, but adding an angle lock may be the slam dunk we need. That is limiting the angle, pitch and possibly roll, that bombs can be released at.
As far as low level Lancs coming in to sweep your gv…….I’ve taken them apart with an Ostwind on many an occasion. I would guess the much more talented LTAR would be better at it than I. I know you guys have or had a gv division that did or does things I can’t. I’m not excusing the dive bombing, just saying a low level drop/suicide run can be stopped.
Your suggestion to lock out the bomb drop unless calibration has been done a few seconds before would limit dive bombing. No question. However, I still maintain that it would create an untenable burden on those of us that level bomb in what is generally considered “the right way”.
We’re on the same page. We just have to tweak a bit to come to consensus.
-
I agree ChopSaw. Just looking for something "Fool Proof". At least the F6 fix would be a good start.
Sure wish HiTech would say something about the practicality of this. . . . Hint, hint, hint.
LTARsqrl <>
-
Jackal1:
NOTICE: As of today everyone will play "my way". I`ll get back to ya on exactly what that is.
We play "Someone’s way" every day. If it were not for people wanting to improve things, we would still be playing Aces High I if anything.
Right now "My way" is the few dive bombing buff bunnies that come in from 5000 feet, dive down, dropping 40,000 lbs. of bombs on one Panzer that is slowing there advance because he has the skill to kill vehicles from 4.0 out.
If that same person were to kill me on equal ground, I would salute them. But I don't get to shoot at them with 3 different vehicle lives and something that has a 100 by 1000 yard kill zone.
I am almost to the belief that these same buff bunnies couldn't drop a bomb and have it hit the ground from 10,000 feet and above like the real AHII Bomber Pilots do now.
LTARsqrl <>
:aok
-
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
Jackal1:
We play "Someone’s way" every day. If it were not for people wanting to improve things, we would still be playing Aces High I if anything.
Right now "My way" is the few dive bombing buff bunnies that come in from 5000 feet, dive down, dropping 40,000 lbs. of bombs on one Panzer that is slowing there advance because he has the skill to kill vehicles from 4.0 out.
I liked AH1. I'm not too crazy about some of the changes made in the switch to AH2.
However, I wouldn't mind knowing how to kill a gv at 4.0. Do you give lessons?
-
Originally posted by Lazerr
LOL.. your not going to be able to talk to little Jimmy, 12 years old, with a fully loaded lancaster and ask him not to divebomb the piss out of you.
This isn't something you can change through the pilots, we need limitations on the bombers. :rolleyes:
Some people do Low Level Bombing, Does this count as a Little Jimmy? I can be level at 1k and drop accurately with no Scope. My Point is, Some people prefer to low Level bomb and if it happens to be on GVs that is not dive bombing, Dive bombing is coming in from 5k and aiming Nose down and letting all hell loose from your plane. That is just plane out Scarry to :cry
-
You know, as a buff guy, I have a higher regard for those guys who take the effort to get to alt, synch up and drop from the F6 mode. People who do the death-dive-bombing to the constant NOE just to get eggs all over an airbase aren't real buff drivers to me.
I think the force method suggested is flawed. You're trying to force a buff pilot to fly the way you "feel" a buff pilot should. I think its ignorant to do so, because there are times when my buff is damaged and I'll try to jettison the remaining eggs as best I can. With your plan, that wouldnt be feasible.
If you want to make another "popular" idea that the fighter guys would react to, perhaps disable the ability to fire at a con if they are coming at you head on. I mean, this would eliminate the dread head ons, yes?
Think its a bad idea to tell fighter guys how to fight? Me too.
See my point :)
-
I am trying to see which method has the best advantage here.
Method A:
Get in the bombsight. Hold the "Y" key for 10-15 seconds. Then adjust the bombers speed up or down via the E6B reading to the "calibrated" speed while approaching target. Match speed. Drop when cross-hairs cross target.
Or......
Method B: (B-24s only)
Get your speed somwhere between 170 - 190 mph (indicated speed). set throttle to 3400 RPMs. Leave manifold full. Get in Bomb-Site and hold crosshairs on a spot for 10 seconds. Drop when cross-hairs cross targets.
To me it would seem easier to adjust the sight rather than the speed of the bomber since they change speeds very slowly in level flight and it seems if you want it fast (ie turning around, you've just shot down that pesky Spit thats been "sneaking" up on you and are close to the base, etc) Method B would work better. If A works ... kewl. But I rarely miss with Method B. I guess its an old AH1 Hold-over of mine.
My personal rule on how long to calibrate:
Low level bombing <8K 5 seconds sight calibration.
Medium level bombing >8K to <15K 10 second sight calibration.
Hight Level bombing >15K 15 second sight calibration.
Good Bombing.
Softail
-
Originally posted by LePaul
You know, as a buff guy, I have a higher regard for those guys who take the effort to get to alt, synch up and drop from the F6 mode. People who do the death-dive-bombing to the constant NOE just to get eggs all over an airbase aren't real buff drivers to me.
I think the force method suggested is flawed. You're trying to force a buff pilot to fly the way you "feel" a buff pilot should. I think its ignorant to do so, because there are times when my buff is damaged and I'll try to jettison the remaining eggs as best I can. With your plan, that wouldnt be feasible.
If you want to make another "popular" idea that the fighter guys would react to, perhaps disable the ability to fire at a con if they are coming at you head on. I mean, this would eliminate the dread head ons, yes?
Think its a bad idea to tell fighter guys how to fight? Me too.
See my point :)
I Dont really care which way i fly, High Level, Or Low, I hit my targets without Regard, Low Level bombing takes more of a challenge as you have to Estimate where and when to drop the bomb, Level bombing is to easy, Level out hop in F6, Calibrate for 10-15 secs and boom ya can nail a fly with a piece of wood from 25k. Low level bombing is more fun and Energizin, Flying 200ft then climbing to 1k and setting salvo to **2 or 1**, And dropping on hangars or GVs, Not Everybody sets salvo to 14 and makes the base look like the moon.
-
i just want a damn PBY!:O
-
Outbreak:
The idea is to eliminate unrealistic game play. The fighter guys have more or less realistic flight models on their aircraft. Parameters which cannot be ignored. It is not unfair nor unrealistic to expect the same general restrictions of bombers and the method used in bombing. It is not real or fair to have a heavy bomber drop bombs inverted or in any other fashion which ignores the fuselage or restrictions inherent in the close confines of the bomb bay. Dive bombing heavies is silly, unfair and not realistic in any way.
I fly bombers almost exclusively. I like them. I like expending the patience to get them up there, up to speed and I like sneaking them in before the enemy knows I’m a threat or what I can do with the bombers. I like shooting down fighter guys who don’t know how to attack me and I grin when faced with somebody who knows what they’re doing. Yes, I die, but I die well and I learn something each time.
-
a Bombers a Bomber, A Game is a Game, Neither can be perfect, We as bomber pilots need to work with what we have, Less complaining more Bombing. :D
-
Originally posted by outbreak
a Bombers a Bomber, A Game is a Game, Neither can be perfect, We as bomber pilots need to work with what we have, Less complaining more Bombing. :D
That is rather the point. A bomber is in fact a bomber and should act a little like it. A heavy bomber is not a Stuka, P38, P51 or any other type of dive bombing aircraft. It was not designed for it.
Yes, it’s a game. However it is a game that attempts to emulate WWII battle. In the pursuit of that goal we have these discussions. What we’ll have to “work with” will hopefully be better than what we have now. The complaints about dive bombing heavy bombers are valid. They annoy fighters, gv’s and other bombers alike. The problem should be fixed and hopefully HighTech will read some of this and fix it when the lot of them are done tweaking ToD. In fact this is hopefully one of the things they will fix in ToD and retroactively to the main arena.
-
Originally posted by ChopSaw
Outbreak:
The idea is to eliminate unrealistic game play.
...snip.....
Not really.
I 100% guarantee there will ALWAYS be unrealistic gameplay in AH, because no matter what "rules" you make --- in the end nobody dies for real. That fact alone means people will fly and fight in radically different ways than the real pilots did.
And, there is no command structure, so jobs important for the team will NOT get done unless they're fun. So, forget enormously realistic techniques like, oh, combat air patrol at set alts, or long range escort.
Now add in the compromises reality has to make in order to keep things fun (instead of pure work). Things like the stall horn, or ammo counters, or trim (which works VERY differently than it does in real planes, since computer joystacks act very differently than ones in aircraft.) Things liek not having to sit on the runway to warm up engines, or not colliding with friendlies who happen to choose the same runway 2 seconds befroe you get there.
AH will never get realistic gameplay in the sense you mean it.
What AH CAN do is give realistic models. That means duplicating hard performance characteristics (like climb rates and maxc speed at each alt); it also means duplicating the "feel" of weapons systems when the model has to bend for practical reasons (like having 2x fuel burns since airfields are close, so short ranged planes feel short ranged, and having the T-34 load ammo slowly to "simulate" the cramped turret arrangement).
Every time AH appropriately bends reality to make things work, there will be an opportunity for gamers to exploit the compromise in "gamey" ways. Its just gunna happen, and there's nothing you can do about it.
BUT you can strive to make the models as realistic as possible (in both the measurable data and in the imponderable "feel" planes and vehicles have). Thats generally what HTC does, and they do a good job of it.
For whatever reason, they have decided to apply a different standard to bombers than they do to every other weapon system in the game. While bombs and bullets are precisely charted with careful tabulations based on physics, drawn as if with sharpened draftman's tools; the bomber itself is sketched with a thick fingered crayon.
(BTW I am NOT talkingabout buff guns, which I think are 100% appropriate. They get kills, but they balance for the fact that bombers od not operate with large crews and in large formations, escorted by fighters. The current gun system seems to me to be a completely valid design set up.)
I've said it befoire and I'll say it again....bombers should ahve bomb bays. This single measure would change the way they're used, bu thats not the point. (In fact, including the bomb bay angle drop limits would not eliminate dive bombing the way you guys mean it -- especially for the lancs.) The point is much simpler: bombers were designed around bomb bays, and AH shouldn't ignore that. Its the whole point of the weapon system, and AH is such a quality product that it feels plain wrong to have such a huge compromise made.
I've been watching...dive bombing is MUCH less common than you'd think from these forums. It's no t a gameplay problem, it doesnt impact the MA, and buff guys who had to avoid exceeding 30 degrees (for B-17) would still function the same. BUT....
It is silly to require pilots to press "o" to open the bomb bay, and then let them "drop" the bomb inverted through the top of the wing and the fuselage's main spar.
(Should it be a bit embarassing... ??)
-
Simaril,
Your comments regarding unrealistic game play are valid. Of course they're valid. The comment I made regarding elimination of unrealistic game play was made within the confines of the current discussion. Finding a way to stop heavies from being used as dive bombers.
I don't see how an angle restriction in addition to the F6 limitation could fail to halt dive bombing heavies. Note, I'm not talking about low level drops where the attitude of the bomber is relatively level. The reason we're forwarding these two solutions is because they would seem to be the easiest way for HTC to fix the problem. Putting bomb bay modeling into the heavy bombers would also probably fix the problem and perhaps be a more complete solution, but I think that would require a lot more coding. We're trying to come up with a solution they're likely to implement instead of one which might be less likely because it requires a ton more work. That having been said, I like the idea of bomb bays with their inherent restrictions. If that's the solution HTC finds most appealing, I'm all for it.
I too do not often see dive bombing going on, but then I'm not usually in a position to see it. That doesn't mean the guys in gv's or cv's who it occasionally happens to don't have a valid complaint. One that I think should be addressed. I'm more of a bomber in this game than anything else, but fair is fair. Tanks shouldn't be able to fly and a B-24 shouldn't be able to drop bombs through its nose or any other part of the fuselage
-
Sure would like to see a B-29.
-
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
Jackal1:
We play "Someone’s way" every day. l <>
Good point. That is exactly what I am saying. That "someone" is HT. When changes are made it is going to displease some and please others. That`s just the facts. Some of the changes I have seen I dislike, some I like. Some I hate, some I agree with.
If it were not for people wanting to improve things, we would still be playing Aces High I if anything.
There ya go. "Improvement" in one players eyes may be totaly negative to another player. If I had "my way" I would gladly go back to AH1 in a heartbeat. I loved it. I don`t have "my way" and neither does anyone else. It`s HT`s way or the highway and he is trying to do a balancing act continuously.
Right now "My way" is the few dive bombing buff bunnies that come in from 5000 feet, dive down, dropping 40,000 lbs. of bombs on one Panzer that is slowing there advance because he has the skill to kill vehicles from 4.0 out.
That seems to me like intead of saying "your way" that you are actualy saying you are being forced to play "someone else`s way" and you think the tables should be turned because of it. In your words....If a " few buff bunnies" and drop 40,000 pounds of bombs on ONE panzer, then what are you disagreeing with the most? Is it the fact that you are the ONE panzer on occasions or the fact that you want the buff driver to come in with more alt and fly the way you wished they would. In other words..."your way". I could easily reverse that and ask why you don`t up a fighter and take out some low alt buffs. See what I`m getting at? Do you like it better when 2 dar bars of a "scorched earth " squad comes in with alt and takes out the whole shabang ? I see a lot asking for what they are calling the "old way" of bomb calibration to be put back in action. Actualy it is not the "old way". The "old way" was in AH1 with a pretty simple and accurate bombing setup. Most of the bomber guys were dropping with alt and with great accuracy. Too much accuracy was complained about then mainly by the GV drivers and the fighter jocks who didn`t want to put out the effort to shoot down bombers when you could see it coming from 2 or 3 sectors away. It was changed, then changed again. Now it is being asked to be changed back one step. I can quarantee that if it is it will be complained about by as many players who are asking for this change now.
If that same person were to kill me on equal ground, I would salute them. But I don't get to shoot at them with 3 different vehicle lives and something that has a 100 by 1000 yard kill zone.
You could if you would make the choice to up a fighter instead of a GV and take out the bombers coming in low and making them easy pickings. It`s your choice and the other players choice to do what you wish.
I am almost to the belief that these same buff bunnies couldn't drop a bomb and have it hit the ground from 10,000 feet and above like the real AHII Bomber Pilots do now.
So they wouldn`t make much of a difference if they were at 10,000 feet or a 1000 ft, right? Not much damge on the whole either way. So what`s the main problem that you are wanting changes to be made for? You are actualy wanting things to be changed to suit your playing style and the other guys are playing the way that they desire to.
Don`t get me wrong. I am not totaly disagreeing with you and not toaly agreeing with you either. What I am saying is we have only one choice as far as gameplay goes and that is to either play or not play with what is available at any particular time. The big picture and the decisons are lfet up to HT. Discussing it and exchanging ideas is great. Getting bent totaly out of shape and demanding things be changed because it is what any particualr player wants is senseless.
I know of one player who totaly quit AH when the first bomb sight change was made in AH1 because he didn`t like the change. That was his choice. I didn`t like the change either, but I liked AH on a whole enough to go with the flow. It`s the big picture that matters. If the game ever gets to the point to where I don`t wish to participate anymore, I want, but until then I either play or not. You gotta "dance with the one who brung ya" or stay home on the porch and whittle. :D
-
Chop, take a look at the thread in my sig.
The primary way that bomb bays would be modelled istn graphic -- its simply by inluding an inclinometer reading. Just like the software now checks to see that the bomb bay doors are open, it would have to check that the aircraft angle is no more than 30 degrees of horizontal pitch, and under10 degrees off neutral roll (for B-17). If not, no drop.
The number for the lancaster though will be much more generous due to its bomb bay geometry. So, miodelling the bay's limits will not stop dive bombing -- but then, thats not the point of fixing the model.
-
Originally posted by Simaril
Chop, take a look at the thread in my sig.
The primary way that bomb bays would be modelled istn graphic -- its simply by inluding an inclinometer reading. Just like the software now checks to see that the bomb bay doors are open, it would have to check that the aircraft angle is no more than 30 degrees of horizontal pitch, and under10 degrees off neutral roll (for B-17). If not, no drop.
The number for the lancaster though will be much more generous due to its bomb bay geometry. So, miodelling the bay's limits will not stop dive bombing -- but then, thats not the point of fixing the model.
One of the fixes we've been discussing is the inclinometer limitation. That in conjunction with the F6 limitation (limiting ability to drop bombs to the F6 position) would fix dive bombing heavies. So are you saying the heavy bombers could actually dive bomb in real life?
If the point of fixing the model isn't to eliminate dive bombing heavies, what is it?
-
Ummmm....to model it right?
What we do in the MA could be called "emergent behavior" -- patterns arise based on the rules and the situations we encounter. HTC doesnt generally like to force behavior -- witness the 13 page thread about starting the ENY system, where HTC repeatedly declined to pursue systems that involved making people do anything. Instead, teh system is set up and we're free to choose the path that seems best to us. HTC sets up the models, and lets us do what we want. So, there is going to be dive bombing, and vulching, and porking, and ack hugging. Nothing will change that, and I suspect HTC doesnt care too much what we do with his accurate models, as long as we have fun and (more or less) respect each other.
His job is to model it right, and keep the arenas running.
BTW, you may want to do a search on the topic. Each of this thread's suggestions (the F6 drops, the strats tied to planesets, the no external view, and even the dive angle limits) have been considered and discussed extensively before the thread even started. There probably wont be a response from HTC, because there isnt really any new idea around to talk about. HTC has (so far) declined to make any changes, including the ones I favor. Ghosth played the BBS game right, making a proposal and explainig it, then leaving the issue for HTC to consider and decide. Neither of us particularly like dive bombing heavies, though we have different approaches and tolerances for the problem.
But, neither of us thinks we can make HTC do anything by the volume or frequency of out complaining.
I'd advise you guys to just state your case, dont get worked up, and lets see what happens.
-
Originally posted by Simaril
Ummmm....to model it right?
What we do in the MA could be called "emergent behavior" -- patterns arise based on the rules and the situations we encounter. HTC doesnt generally like to force behavior -- witness the 13 page thread about starting the ENY system, where HTC repeatedly declined to pursue systems that involved making people do anything. Instead, teh system is set up and we're free to choose the path that seems best to us. HTC sets up the models, and lets us do what we want. So, there is going to be dive bombing, and vulching, and porking, and ack hugging. Nothing will change that, and I suspect HTC doesnt care too much what we do with his accurate models, as long as we have fun and (more or less) respect each other.
His job is to model it right, and keep the arenas running.
BTW, you may want to do a search on the topic. Each of this thread's suggestions (the F6 drops, the strats tied to planesets, the no external view, and even the dive angle limits) have been considered and discussed extensively before. There probably wont be a response from HTC, because there isnt really any new idea around to talk about. HTC has (so far) declined to make any changes, including the ones I favor.
So, just state your case, dont get worked up, and lets see what happens.
If HT’s job is to “model it right and keep the arenas running”, it is mine as a consumer to express dissatisfaction with the current situation. This gives him the feedback needed to do that job. I’m assuming he cares about his customers concerns. Merely because the material has been stated before doesn’t mean it shouldn’t continue to be stated, thereby notifying HT of the continued concern. I want nothing more or less than you do. Correct modeling of the bombers ability to release bombs. If that means they should be able to release bombs at up to a 30 degree glide angle and/or 10 degree roll, so be it, but not greater than that. That may well mean we’d have to give up on the idea of the F6 limitation since going to F6 puts the aircraft in automatic level flight.
Since dive bombing heavies isn’t something that directly effects me, it’s unlikely I’ll get “worked up about it”. I’m seldom in a situation where dive bombing would kill me. Usually I’m bombing and I never employ jabo technique with a heavy bomber.
Case stated, blood pressure normal and waiting to see what happens. If nothing happens, no big deal for me. I’ll deal. I’m not sure the guys in gv’s feel that way though.
-
Jackal1:
What I am saying is we have only one choice as far as gameplay goes and that is to either play or not play with what is available at any particular time.
So why not correct something that is unrealistic so that it is available at any particular time?
Yes, I spend a lot of time on the ground. And for those that don't see Dive Bombing Buffs every night, I can tell you that it happens EVERY night. Dive Bombing buffs appear at almost every V-Base that has vehicles defending and a nearby enemy base with ords up. Last night alone, at one base I witnessed multiple dive bombing attacks with both Lancasters and B-24s. Don't even assume I am limiting this to one side. All sides do it. And it is wrong.
To say, I could easily reverse that and ask why you don`t up a fighter and take out some low alt buffs.
, well wouldn't that be the same as letting the buff bomb us. The result is no defense at the base. I get bombed by Jabos all time. And though I may not like it, it is in line with actual events and the Jabo is doing what it was designed for. Instead of me ditching my vehicle and upping a fighter to look for those dive bombing buffs, shouldn't the question be, why doesn't the Dive Bombing Buff up a heavy fighter to drop bombs on vehicles?
All I am asking is that "Unrealistic Dive Bombing" by heavy buffs be corrected so that they are used the way heavy bombers were used in WWII.
Don't go to the extent of reading more into this post than there is. Don't dissect each word and sentence to find fault and put specifics to it. The simple fact is this. Dive Bombing Buffs are wrong and inaccurate. Let’s try to fix it.
LTARsqrl <>
;)
-
MadSquirre,
How steep a dive are those buffs in when they're bombing you?
-
Anywhere from 30 to 60 degrees. Then if the do a loop, maybe 60 to 90 degrees. And you can hit them repeatedly and not kill them. There are occasions when you get a one or two-ping kill, but very rarely. So even if 3 Osties are lighting them up, the still manage to carpet bomb the entire area with what’s remaining of 18 500 lbers and the big 4000 lber. Oh, and remember that is times 3.
LTARsqrl <>
Just F6 the Buffs.
-
Originally posted by Beefcake
Put in an angle lock on the bombers so that when the plane is diving or climbing over a certain degree it locks the bombs from dropping. An example would be like locking the B17s bombs at 6 degrees down, this way the pilot can have some room to climb or dive but if they dive to much it locks the bombs from dropping.
I'm not going to bother reading this entire (-ly too long) thread, but I skimmed through and saw this.
Angle means nothing. That has to be pointed out. What if you're theoretically pulling up from a near vertical dive? Your angle may be steeper than "x" degrees, but the pull on the bomb only is pulling it directly "down" from your bomb bay -- thus in a dive you could release the bombs (without precision aiming) and still do it safely. It depends on forces and which way the bomb is dropping/being thrown at the time of release.
Angle alone won't dictate that.
Now we currently have no gamey system. You would rather we institute an arbitrary gamey system? No arbitrary limits is better than arbitrary limits.
Have to keep looking, that idea won't work.
-
You totally misread my point Krusty, which is good as I need to think of a better way to explain my idea. Let me try this:
Ok imagine you're flying over a flat map and you're perfectly level, this would mean your plane is flying parallel to the earth. (And I'm talking about the template of the map not the terrain such as hills and stuff) Ok now say you start to dive down, well you're no longer in parallel with the earth and once your angle with the earth passes a certain point, IE 6 degrees as an example, it locks your bomb bay. (hrm still think this one is clear as muddy water)
Another way of doing this is simply tying the bomb bay to the pitch guage or whatever the gauge is called. (the one that displays how many thousand feet a minute you're climbing/diving) Basically lets say that if your plane starts to lose more than 250 feet a minute, according to the gauge, that it locks the bay. Or something to that extent.
-
Originally posted by Krusty
I'm not going to bother reading this entire (-ly too long) thread, but I skimmed through and saw this.
Angle means nothing. That has to be pointed out. What if you're theoretically pulling up from a near vertical dive? Your angle may be steeper than "x" degrees, but the pull on the bomb only is pulling it directly "down" from your bomb bay -- thus in a dive you could release the bombs (without precision aiming) and still do it safely. It depends on forces and which way the bomb is dropping/being thrown at the time of release.
Angle alone won't dictate that.
Now we currently have no gamey system. You would rather we institute an arbitrary gamey system? No arbitrary limits is better than arbitrary limits.
Have to keep looking, that idea won't work.
Krusty,
the limits arent arbitrary - they're historical. They were included in training manuals and were precisely defined.
Second, while the "pulling up" G-force displaced drop is correct from the standpoint of physics, from an engineering standpoint it doesnt apply in AH. Bombers with bays werre not phycially capable of pulling out with enough G's to make a meaningful difference in the bomb angle. (With the probably eception of the Ju-88, whcih was also intended fro dive bombing.) For example, a B-24 travelling over 275 mph could snap off its empennage by ADJUSTING VERTICAL TRIM. Theres simply no way it could do "toss bombing" the way you suggest.
-
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
Jackal1:
So why not correct something that is unrealistic so that it is available at any particular time?
Yes, I spend a lot of time on the ground. And for those that don't see Dive Bombing Buffs every night, I can tell you that it happens EVERY night. Dive Bombing buffs appear at almost every V-Base that has vehicles defending and a nearby enemy base with ords up. Last night alone, at one base I witnessed multiple dive bombing attacks with both Lancasters and B-24s. Don't even assume I am limiting this to one side. All sides do it. And it is wrong.
To say, , well wouldn't that be the same as letting the buff bomb us. The result is no defense at the base. I get bombed by Jabos all time. And though I may not like it, it is in line with actual events and the Jabo is doing what it was designed for. Instead of me ditching my vehicle and upping a fighter to look for those dive bombing buffs, shouldn't the question be, why doesn't the Dive Bombing Buff up a heavy fighter to drop bombs on vehicles?
All I am asking is that "Unrealistic Dive Bombing" by heavy buffs be corrected so that they are used the way heavy bombers were used in WWII.
Don't go to the extent of reading more into this post than there is. Don't dissect each word and sentence to find fault and put specifics to it. The simple fact is this. Dive Bombing Buffs are wrong and inaccurate. Let�s try to fix it.
LTARsqrl <>
;)
HeHe! Well I had you a big ole longwinded reply, but lost it on login. (That shoud be a relief.)
Dive bombing buffs are wrong, inaccurate and unrealistic.................. .in your opinion. When the Doolittle raid was suggested it was also viewed that way by some in WWII. :)
To fix something it first has to be viewed as broken by the one who counts. Why not approach him directly?
I don`t know exactly who the "Let`s" is supposed to be in "Let`s try to fix it".
Don`t have to read anymore into your statements. They pretty well speak for themselves. You are unhappy with this part of the game and think it is incorrect. What does HT think? That is what counts. Ask him.......directly. It`s been on the boards over and over.
I`m all for ya bud. Go for it.
-
Originally posted by Krusty
I'm not going to bother reading this entire (-ly too long) thread, but I skimmed through and saw this.
Angle means nothing. That has to be pointed out. What if you're theoretically pulling up from a near vertical dive? Your angle may be steeper than "x" degrees, but the pull on the bomb only is pulling it directly "down" from your bomb bay -- thus in a dive you could release the bombs (without precision aiming) and still do it safely. It depends on forces and which way the bomb is dropping/being thrown at the time of release.
Angle alone won't dictate that.
Now we currently have no gamey system. You would rather we institute an arbitrary gamey system? No arbitrary limits is better than arbitrary limits.
Have to keep looking, that idea won't work.
Krusty,
Check out this link to another thread. http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168118 (http://) Simaril placed some neat photo's and tables from the real thing there. They and he explain the restirictions in a fashion easily and quickly read.
-
Originally posted by Simaril
Krusty,
the limits arent arbitrary - they're historical. They were included in training manuals and were precisely defined.
Second, while the "pulling up" G-force displaced drop is correct from the standpoint of physics, from an engineering standpoint it doesnt apply in AH. Bombers with bays werre not phycially capable of pulling out with enough G's to make a meaningful difference in the bomb angle. (With the probably eception of the Ju-88, whcih was also intended fro dive bombing.) For example, a B-24 travelling over 275 mph could snap off its empennage by ADJUSTING VERTICAL TRIM. Theres simply no way it could do "toss bombing" the way you suggest.
I disagree Simaril, putting in what your proposition is arbtrary. I know about your tables but to only implement them with out implementing the real physics adjustements that those tables are generated from, would be a totaly arbitray adjustment.
2. people tend to greatly over state the angle of dive bombing buffs.
3. bombers can pull resonable g's, It all depends on how they are loading.
4. implementing the angles will not realy change game play lot, people will just learn to come down fast, level at 1k and drop that way.
So the next request will be (noden didn't work at that alt so it should be disabled) Followed by the next request ( for low level stuff they could use fixed sights so please implement that).
5. Implementing the F6 things would , make it so it is not posible to do mass formations drops. I.E. Drop when the lead does.
Finaly I do wish to do bombay modeling, But it is by no means just a quick simple implementation. Nore would it drasticly change game play. So hence it gets put low on the list. But to implement your request would go down an artifical limitation path.
HiTech
-
Guess that's the final word. Can't say we didn't try, guys. :(
-
Fair enough, HT. Thanks for the response.
I know many have focused on the dive bombing heavies issue, and I'd joined in that chorus a year or so ago. Since digging up the data sheets, though, I've repeatedly said that implementation of bomb bay modelling woudl not impact that infrequent problem.
I had suggested the fixed angles without full physics for simplicity's sake...and honestly, if you guys expect to implement full physics modelling that's even better than I'd hoped for. WIth so many major tasks on the "to do" list, I can surely understand why this sits lower down.
As far as I'm concerned, the issue is closed. It'll be done when its done, and when its done it will be done right. Thats more than good enough for me.
P.S. check out the new sig
-
Folks.....This is a simulation of course....but it also is a game...realistic yes, but a game.......reality is: .....going up and risking everything you have and are ever going to have in life! The only real solution to all of this is having a relaxed realism arena like there was in AW. The pros will gravatate towards full real and the kids and less serious players of which I am one......will (play) in the rr arena. You are always going to have people that will HO, vulch, dive in with a 17 at 200 feet.....crash a plane to get a fully loaded one quicker :) bascally some people like to bust chops sometimes of the more serious and experinced players ...I know I do right REN? lol :t
-
Originally posted by hitech
5. Implementing the F6 things would , make it so it is not posible to do mass formations drops. I.E. Drop when the lead does.
HiTech
What we have now allows for this..............
IMO your 3d modelling of the various positions allows for players to "look out" from the bomb aimers position............
from the bomb aimers position views allow the player to look out of the aircraft to aircraft ahead................ even the B24 with its restriction of the sight blocking most of the dead ahead view can be circumvented by moving the front quarter views up.
They can see aircraft to the front and to the front quarter views dropping bombs and can trigger their own release ................
The reality is that they are dropped off vox any way when this is done "in game"
I would also note that tanks guns (the Gv equivalent) are only accessable from the appropriate position.......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
even so...............
F6 is a strange method of access................all other positions on the rides are accessed by numbers............ the bomb aimer from a function key suggesting it is a unique form of view like the other "F's"...a player can only move to the bomb aimers position from the pilots position yet jump around the aircraft to other positions quite happily.
the bomb aimers natural view is thru the sight............. not looking forward.
What we have now ............. works(so why fix it?)
However it would be more logical to give the bomb aimer a position number (0?) which would put the player looking forward in the bomb aimers seat (even with access to the gun he may have had)
F6 then presents the bomb sight.........
F6 would be only available from the bomb aimer position...........
Bombs can only be dropped from this position (0?)............(where applicable)......... whether the bomb aimer is using the sight or not.
AC goes level in F6.....................
-
What is the CM Staff anyway?
-
Hitech:
5. Implementing the F6 things would , make it so it is not posible to do mass formations drops. I.E. Drop when the lead does.
How often does "Mass Formation Drops" occur verses the dive-bombing?
In Formation drops, even though very rare, they have Voice between them. Range Channel, Mission Channel, Squad Channel. So get in formation, when the Lead Bomber says go to sights, y'all go the F6, and then the Lead Bomber says "Bombs Away" and everyone drops. Solves the Mass drop dilemma. Also fixes the mass Dive Bombing Dilemma.
:)
LTARsqrl <>
-
Perhaps he's thinking mass formation drops will be used in ToD. Could be a clue as to how things are going to be arranged there.