Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SaburoS on April 03, 2004, 04:21:29 PM
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It's ironically funny/sad that some that espouse the "Good old days of family values, etc" are the ones most complaining against being "politically correct."
Being 42 myself, I remember a time where I was taught to say:
Sir, Ma'am, Miss, etc.
Please. Thank you.
Was taught to be considerate of others.
Sorry, but even though it was accepted at the time, my family didn't use racial epithets as my sister and I would usually be a victim of the J** label because my mother is Japanese (She grew up in Tokyo and "lived" through the horror of the fire-bombing by the B-29s) and my father is white (served proudly in the US Navy for 28 years).
I have questions for those of you that feel a need to use racial epithets to get a point across:
1) Why?
2) Is this the sort of attitude and language you'd like to see our youth learn and mimic?
3) What on earth is wrong in being politically correct? You'd think it'd be a criminal act to see some responses!
I'm going to ask to please stop referring to other nationalities in such a derogatory way. It's unbecoming of civilized folk to talk/type that way.
Thank you.
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good post and good point :)
this should deff be a sticky.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
It's ironically funny/sad that some that espouse the "Good old days of family values, etc" are the ones most complaining against being "politically correct."
Being 42 myself, I remember a time where I was taught to say:
Sir, Ma'am, Miss, etc.
Please. Thank you.
Was taught to be considerate of others.
Sorry, but even though it was accepted at the time, my family didn't use racial epithets as my sister and I would usually be a victim of the J** label because my mother is Japanese (She grew up in Tokyo and "lived" through the horror of the fire-bombing by the B-29s) and my father is white (served proudly in the US Navy for 28 years).
I have questions for those of you that feel a need to use racial epithets to get a point across:
1) Why?
2) Is this the sort of attitude and language you'd like to see our youth learn and mimic?
3) What on earth is wrong in being politically correct? You'd think it'd be a criminal act to see some responses!
I'm going to ask to please stop referring to other nationalities in such a derogatory way. It's unbecoming of civilized folk to talk/type that way.
Thank you.
Falling on deaf ears with most of the folks here, Sakai. You'll be probably be asked, ironically, to "lighten up" or be branded as some bleeding heart liberal.
Good luck!
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Originally posted by SaburoS
proudly in the US Navy for 28 years).
I have questions for those of you that feel a need to use racial epithets to get a point across:
1) Why?
makes em feel like big shots
2) Is this the sort of attitude and language you'd like to see our youth learn and mimic?
It Is our youth ! adults dont speak that way
3) What on earth is wrong in being politically correct? You'd think it'd be a criminal act to see some responses!
Dont like PC but I do like good manners.
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SaburoS,
I believe in beeing polite to others. I don't believe the current wave of ultra PCness is necessary. At 57 and having lived in another country for most of my formative years I learned early not to tag people with a brand.
I think common sense must come into this. I think it has reached a point where too many are being ultra sensitive (not you in this case) and either looking for some personal attention or an advantage.
Yes I support the need to be polite, not necessarily PC.
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Sab ever circus has its clowns.
Sorry off topic here, Sab have you had the chance yet to test the Nikon D70 ?
Can it hold a candle to the Canon D10 Cmos in relationship to noise with low/ bright light exposures?
thx...
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I agree with Mark Luper here.
Being against PC does not mean that you are impolite, and vice versa. Being PC does not imply that you are polite.
As a matter of fact, PC is just a clever technique of pushing unpopular or sometimes abhorring ideas down someone's throat, not by the power of a reasonable debate, but by using a (very impolite) threat of name calling and by presumming an intellectual superiority.
something like
"All intelligent and educated people support the notion that... fill the rest"
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Originally posted by Torque
Sab ever circus has its clowns.
Sorry off topic here, Sab have you had the chance yet to test the Nikon D70 ?
Can it hold a candle to the Canon D10 Cmos in relationship to noise with low/ bright light exposures?
thx...
Actually I haven't yet. But it does seem to be the better camera in its class. Seems Nikon is calling the D70 the successor to the D100 and the specs seem to support this. Someone choosing the D70 over the DRebel, D100, or the 10D and I'd say they got the best camera for their money. I'd still choose the Canon for the lenses as the Nikon's seem to be more expensive for the equivilent Canon lens. Canon offers more lenses as well (If that matters). For the camera body, I'd say Nikon just took the lead in that class.
As far as the noise issue, I feel the Canon CMOS has less visible noise in the higher ISO ranges (800 and over) over Nikon's CCD (I haven't seen images from Nikon's D70 so I can't really comment here). However I believe that the noise levels are pretty much a non-issue as the software offerings out there (NIK's Dfine for one) pretty much even out the field between Canon and Nikon.
If one is starting out with their first digital SLR and they didn't have a lens collection, go with the D70 as long as the lens offerings by Nikon (or 3rd party offerings) are sufficient for their type of photography.
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Originally posted by mietla
I agree with Mark Luper here.
Being against PC does not mean that you are impolite, and vice versa. Being PC does not imply that you are polite.
As a matter of fact, PC is just a clever technique of pushing unpopular or sometimes abhorring ideas down someone's throat, not by the power of a reasonable debate, but by using a (very impolite) threat of name calling and by presumming an intellectual superiority.
something like
"All intelligent and educated people support the notion that... fill the rest"
Someone throwing names, insults, etc in their argument is not being "PC." They've lost the argument at that point.
If we're talking about articles where one is wailing against "master" and "slave" labels on cd and hard drives, then yes, I agree that that type of "PC" is getting out of hand.
My comments opening this thread is based on the observations of some supposedly using racist labels, insults, etc in their arguments/statements and then whining about being sick and tired of the PC crowd. Seems the same group wonders why we've gone to a hell-in-a-handbasket world, and what happened to the "good old days" of family values, etc.
I believe that good manners, politeness, and respect are part of being "PC." IMHO of course.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
I believe that good manners, politeness, and respect are part of being "PC." IMHO of course.
Well, that sounds like the difference then. A lot of people see PC as being totally separate from the other three you listed. As in far below. Myself included.
If someone told me I was being impolite or disrespectful, I'd probably apologize or change my behavior. If someone told me I was being un-PC, I'd probably tell them to piss off.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Falling on deaf ears with most of the folks here, Sakai. You'll be probably be asked, ironically, to "lighten up" or be branded as some bleeding heart liberal.
Good luck!
~S~!
Thanks, but isn't it ironic that what I espouse to see are nice, conservative values. Nothing wrong with being a (cough) conservative (cough) here. :)
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Nice post Saburo.
Unforyunately "PC speak" has nothing to do with decency or respect.... It's a forced and false veneer and therfore not genuinely caring or considerate of others.
However your message is good one and I hope you think about reframing it away from the idea of PC attitudes for they have nothing in commom with what you are trying to communicate.
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I am polite and respectful. I am not PC.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Actually I haven't yet. But it does seem to be the better camera in its class. Seems Nikon is calling the D70 the successor to the D100 and the specs seem to support this. Someone choosing the D70 over the DRebel, D100, or the 10D and I'd say they got the best camera for their money. I'd still choose the Canon for the lenses as the Nikon's seem to be more expensive for the equivilent Canon lens. Canon offers more lenses as well (If that matters). For the camera body, I'd say Nikon just took the lead in that class.
As far as the noise issue, I feel the Canon CMOS has less visible noise in the higher ISO ranges (800 and over) over Nikon's CCD (I haven't seen images from Nikon's D70 so I can't really comment here). However I believe that the noise levels are pretty much a non-issue as the software offerings out there (NIK's Dfine for one) pretty much even out the field between Canon and Nikon.
If one is starting out with their first digital SLR and they didn't have a lens collection, go with the D70 as long as the lens offerings by Nikon (or 3rd party offerings) are sufficient for their type of photography.
D70 is showing some serious problems with moire, it's really the only concern I have with this camera right now.. :( :D
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I am not, nor will I ever pretend to be PC. I find what others consider to be "PC" language and presentation often to be false or hypocritical. I'm no saint.. I'm am predjudiced against certain races.
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PC
Ugh. A phrase cooked up by someone and used by the media to label people as nonPC and thus bring ridicule, etc upon them. Many seem to now associate nonPC with rednecks etc....
IMHO PC is far too much like Komrade you will do and think our way or else stuff, far too much like socializm or communist propaganda, or some dictater telling me what to do and think.
PC IMHO has nothing to do with politness. PC is more of a control and create an environment of social fear thing.
Remember reading something about mostly YOUNG PEOPLE seeming to think that please, and thank you, and sir or madam etc... were just mouthing tripe, but the writer felt that to ignore such niceties when dealing with society (others) was like throwing sand into delicate machinery that did not work very well at it's best. And so was very foolish. And there was a time when someone using such terms and phrases could expect a physically violent reaction all over their prettythang. And many would stand by and watch and smile thinking the whole time this person had justly earned what they were recieving.
I try to always be polite to everyone, at least until they show me they have no intention of being polite towards me. Even then I try to use care with what I say and still be somewhat polite in a rather cold and ... well. But I have no intention of being PC, further I don't want to be PC, and finally I'm very proud of not being PC!
It is sad and regretable that so many feel safe in saying such words now. But the law suites and all that comes with physical reactions anymore are not to be laughed at.
I've often thought some smart attorney would come up with an argument that the person that reacted with physical violence was just excerzising his 1st amendment right to free speach/freedom of expresion in a physical way or somethin like that. Hey there is nothing anywhere in the constitution that relieves any of us for the responsiblity for our actions, words or deeds that I could find. Further there used to be an argument that everyone/anyone had a breaking point and did not have to put up with certain things. Some of the poli's have inserted stuff that virtually gives them a get outa jail free card though :(
oh well
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Originally posted by SaburoS
It's ironically funny/sad that some that espouse the "Good old days of family values, etc" are the ones most complaining against being "politically correct."
Being 42 myself, I remember a time where I was taught to say:
Sir, Ma'am, Miss, etc.
Please. Thank you.
Was taught to be considerate of others.
Sorry, but even though it was accepted at the time, my family didn't use racial epithets as my sister and I would usually be a victim of the J** label because my mother is Japanese (She grew up in Tokyo and "lived" through the horror of the fire-bombing by the B-29s) and my father is white (served proudly in the US Navy for 28 years).
I have questions for those of you that feel a need to use racial epithets to get a point across:
1) Why?
2) Is this the sort of attitude and language you'd like to see our youth learn and mimic?
3) What on earth is wrong in being politically correct? You'd think it'd be a criminal act to see some responses!
I'm going to ask to please stop referring to other nationalities in such a derogatory way. It's unbecoming of civilized folk to talk/type that way.
Thank you.
STFU, ******.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I am polite and respectful. I am not PC.
I am polite and respectful to all ******s and *****s and sand ******s and ****s and ***s and *******s.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I am polite and respectful to all ******s and *****s and sand ******s and ****s and ***s and *******s.
Exactly.
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To be polite is one thing and to be PC is another to be polite is to be someone who would be regarded greatly by other to be PC is to disregard your self woth and to be really a hypocrite or as I call be hipocritically correct whichis something I despise, sort of what politicans do be payed for being dirty hipocrites.
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uhhh.... if you say "miss" and maam to a lot of women it will be considered the height of insult.
I use racial and other terms all the time. It is my way. I believe that I do it in an amusing way and I spare no one. I think that the people who want a PC world want a grey world...
PC people are boring people... that is fine for them but it doesn't work for me.
lazs
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My kids are mixed race, Vietnamese and WASP.
When my son was born my wife suggested, and my friends begged, that we name my first son Charles (it is my middle name). I had to explain to the wife that "Charlie" probably wasn't the best idea for a half Vietnamese boy. Of course my friends thought that would be hilarious.
Good thing none of us are very PC.;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
uhhh.... if you say "miss" and maam to a lot of women it will be considered the height of insult.
I use racial and other terms all the time. It is my way. I believe that I do it in an amusing way and I spare no one. I think that the people who want a PC world want a grey world...
PC people are boring people... that is fine for them but it doesn't work for me.
lazs
A guy in his late 50's I work with always calls the women we work with as love, and sweetheart (much to our general amusement), and it's usually only the younger ones who aren't happy being refered that way.
However if you're unhappy being refered by slang word, nickname, or some other title you find demeaning - I guess you do have a right especially in the work place to be refered by your proper name/title.
Saburo, australians in general use slang as an almost the official language. We shorten everything, or turn everything into slang (very much like british cockney) especially when refering to someone. Common usage may not make some things less insulting (the "J" word for example) but then we generally don't use them in a abusive fashion, and if we did...it's usually prefaced with the "F" word.
Tronsky
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Lol Curval. Good call. :)
Tronski, what's the J word? Jack ***?
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Originally posted by Curval
My kids are mixed race, Vietnamese and WASP.
When my son was born my wife suggested, and my friends begged, that we name my first son Charles (it is my middle name). I had to explain to the wife that "Charlie" probably wasn't the best idea for a half Vietnamese boy. Of course my friends thought that would be hilarious.
Good thing none of us are very PC.;)
LOL
You should have named him Victor Charles. :D
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im all for being polite...its just a bit to far to start calling a garbage man a "waste disposal engineer" or a dung scooper a "extretment removal technician"
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Originally posted by Curval
My kids are mixed race, Vietnamese and WASP.
When my son was born my wife suggested, and my friends begged, that we name my first son Charles (it is my middle name). I had to explain to the wife that "Charlie" probably wasn't the best idea for a half Vietnamese boy. Of course my friends thought that would be hilarious.
Good thing none of us are very PC.;)
LOL great story!!!
BTW is that a pic of you in the avatar?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
LOL great story!!!
BTW is that a pic of you in the avatar?
(http://forums.checksix.net/uploads/Curval/2004-04-01_174507_curval.jpg)
Curval, in all his Bermudan(?) glory.
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Pimp.
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Yo he gotz spinnaz on da scoota yo!
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
STFU, ******.
???
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Lol Curval. Good call. :)
Tronski, what's the J word? Jack ***?
The short version of japanese....
Tronsky
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Originally posted by SaburoS
???
******
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I am very PC.
I alwayas say im sorry after pissing on some guys leg at the urinal.
:(
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
******
???
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Originally posted by SaburoS
???
@#$^#^&*#%^*#%^836583@#!$????
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"The sheriff is a n****!!!"
"What?!"
"He said the sheriff is near!"
"No godamnitflimflamit, the sheriff is a N****!!!!!"
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Originally posted by SOB
"The sheriff is a n****!!!"
"What?!"
"He said the sheriff is near!"
"No godamnitflimflamit, the sheriff is a N****!!!!!"
:aok
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
@#$^#^&*#%^*#%^836583@#!$????
Your point?
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There's no point Subaru, it's teh humar.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
There's no point Subaru, it's teh humar.
Ahh, I get it now....but shouldn't one post something that's actually humorous to claim humor? ;)
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Very funny. Now shut up, or I'll burn a cross in yer yard!
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Ahh, I get it now....but shouldn't one post something that's actually humorous to claim humor? ;)
I'm sorry, I forgot teh PC police don't like teh funnay. :D
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Pimp.
Did he have a blingectomy?
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Tarmac...it is "Bermudian".
Thrawn, are you suggesting I had all my bling surgically removed? What gives you that idea? ;)
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I'm glad people aren't as sensitive as the PC police would have us believe.
lazs
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Law Cobra said in Rogwar's thread on Falluja:
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Well Rogwar I like you I really do.
But I have no love for any muslim .
There people have caused more harm to my people in the last 50y ears its just sick.
They are cowards savages that do this kind of thing and I for one am sickend every time I see one on the street.
Cause hell I have no idea If there "good muslim" or a bad one.
I mean how do you tell?
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Law Cobra says in this thread to SaburoS question about people who feel the need to use racial epiphets:
It Is our youth ! adults dont speak that way
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Wow.
Ravs
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Which racial epithets did he use exactly?
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Curv
is that really how you dress? Like you did not lose a bet or something?
The son name story made me laugh!
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PC is bull****, it is changing words or banning words so we can all feel "good"
We dont jhave secrateries or Janitors anymore we have Building maintanance technitians and executive administrators, cause some person who prolly was not either decided they were demeaning names.
Politeness is something totaly different then PC, I try and not be PC, but I am always try and be polite.
Like I open doors for the chicks, and still call chicks chicks, it is not PC to do either.
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Funked asked, 'Which racial epithets did he use exactly?'
Well Funked, that's the delicious Mr Blackness of it all.
He'll write off an entire major religious group (at least hundreds of millions of people) as 'cowardly' and 'savages' - the latter indicating that he's really talking about Arabs rather than Muslims, but he'll draw the line at using racial epithets (how noble).
He says, 'There [sic] people have caused more harm to my people in the last 50 years its just sick.'
Thus carefully stepping around the holocaust - so he doesn't have to write off Germans as savages, or the many European nations which had pogroms preceeding that.
Priceless.
Ravs
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Curv
is that really how you dress? Like you did not lose a bet or something?
That is how I dress...in summer. Seriously.:aok
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Yet we still make fun of you for your scooter????
Your a good man for admiting it though!
:D
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I'm sorry, I forgot teh PC police don't like teh funnay. :D
Actually, I love jokes and humorous posts as it brightens up the day.
STFU, ******.
You care to point out what is even remotely funny about the above? The trouble with the printed phrase is no inflection of voice, no body language or facial impressions show up. Truth be told, it made me angry as there was no call for it.
Oh BTW, I've got a great sence of humor. I laugh at the funny stuff, not at the stupid stuff.
Regards.
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Originally posted by Steve
I am not, nor will I ever pretend to be PC. I find what others consider to be "PC" language and presentation often to be false or hypocritical. I'm no saint.. I'm am predjudiced against certain races.
Steve,
You're being human. Just need more exposure to those your prejudiced of to see that what makes you angry/leary of any group is actually in the minority.
The several times I've had the pleasure of being in your area in the MA was about your being the excellent player with SA. You were never rude or "un PC" around me, either. Thanks and ~S~!
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I am getting the picture of how most here see PC.
I'll agree with some of those types of examples (such as the coffee being too hot, etc).
What I meant was not about that, more like:
Main Entry: politically correct
Function: adjective
: conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated.
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)
Names like J**, N*****(Just to name 2 of too many examples), etc., should have no place in labeling others.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Oh BTW, I've got a great sence of humor. I laugh at the funny stuff, not at the stupid stuff.
Regards.
I thought you were being too serious and was just busting your balls. If you don't think stupid is funny then I guess we just don't have the same taste in humor. :)
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PS the ****** represented a racial epithet.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
PS the ****** represented a racial epithet.
Figured that.
Your post wasn't funny, not stupid funny, not humor funny, not funny at all, period. Would have been better had you not made that post at all. I don't care if you were wearing a Cheshire Cat grin while you were posting either. It didn't translate. No matter, I'm done with you in this thread. You have a good day, sir.
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Don't mind him, Funked, Saburo just needs a long walk on the beach to calm his nerves. He's very sensitive and has gotten all vachlempt over your evil words.
And really it was funny, even for a ****ing ****** like you.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Figured that.
Your post wasn't funny, not stupid funny, not humor funny, not funny at all, period. Would have been better had you not made that post at all. I don't care if you were wearing a Cheshire Cat grin while you were posting either. It didn't translate. No matter, I'm done with you in this thread. You have a good day, sir.
OK, but you gotta admit it was at least ironic.
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sab...
BTw..i didnt read any other posts:)
of course we dont want our kids running around yelling nig-nip-kike--whatever,,..And if you hear this kind of crap all the time..you are hanging out with some bad folks
and its obviuos the LARGE majority here were raised pretty decent..
but the PC crap is wayy over board...
example...I cant say "midget"...."fat"...
so its vertically challenged..or big boned?..lmfao
the problem goes just liek the COMPLELTY CRAPPY NO GGOD PC GUN Law.."Assault Weapons BAn"....
IT BS!!!!!!!!!!!1
An Assualt weapon defintion is a FULLY AUTOmatic weapon...
But the crapassed liberal pantywaist bioches..have banned the guns that"look mean"...and are NOT Fully Auto....they have been illegal since 1935...
Thats the whole problem ...The "feel Good PC " crap goes overboard...and has now infringed on my rights as an American..
You rarely..hear"Merry Christams"..its "Happy Holidays"..ya..thats good..just forget Jesus's birthday...ya..its just a day to get candy and free presents....
That what PC has done....Soem good ..mostly bad...
and Btw..i find it pretty typical to hear from the "other" side(She grew up in Tokyo and "lived" through the horror of the fire-bombing by the B-29s)
...you should ad..while her fellow counrty men were eating-torturing-murding..ect Americans too..if you want to add.."the horror of US Firebombing"....
could not of you just said "she lived in Tokyo-Japan during ww2?....seems that would of been PC for you to say..cause you kind of offend me with that....lolol..you dotn casue i expect that form "your types"..hehehe
Love
BiGB
xoxo
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I see BGB just had a meltdown...
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Was there some thread that provoked Saburo's netcop episode? Did I miss some good ole fashioned bigotry on here somewhere?
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hort..you must be oen linguine spinned liberal if you think thats a meltdown...
you ever seen Fallling Down?
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
sab...
BTw..i didnt read any other posts:)Usually people who type that usually did. Why make that statement at all. Hard to tell if you comprehend what you read anyway.
of course we dont want our kids running around yelling nig-nip-kike--whatever,,..And if you hear this kind of crap all the time..you are hanging out with some bad folks
and its obviuos the LARGE majority here were raised pretty decent..Majority here, yes, large, no so sure.
but the PC crap is wayy over board...Some of the extreme examples sited in this thread are...agreed.
example...I cant say "midget"...."fat"...Poor baby....your life is so unbearably tough to not say those....you actually lose sleep over it?
so its vertically challenged..or big boned?..lmfao
the problem goes just liek the COMPLELTY CRAPPY NO GGOD PC GUN Law.."Assault Weapons BAn"....
IT BS!!!!!!!!!!!1Agreed.
An Assualt weapon defintion is a FULLY AUTOmatic weapon...Actually a machine gun is usually associated as being fully automatic. Assualt rifle in the military sense is a select fire, quick chage box magazine, with an intermediate cartridge.
But the crapassed liberal pantywaist bioches..have banned the guns that"look mean"...and are NOT Fully Auto....they have been illegal since 1935...Both Republicans and Democrats have voted for the ban. As more and more Americans don't hunt or target shoot, less are interested in our gun ownership rights. The politicians just follow the whim of the poll. Nothing new here. Used to be that most law abiding Americans could own a fully automatic weapon as long as they passed a background check and paid for a transfer tax of $200./per weapon. Because I live in California, that was taken away awhile ago. Don't know what states still allow it.
Thats the whole problem ...The "feel Good PC " crap goes overboard...and has now infringed on my rights as an American..Really, which ones are truly based on being PC and not just some laws you label as PC? Some, I'll probably agree with you, others I know I won't....if history is any indicator.
You rarely..hear"Merry Christams"..its "Happy Holidays"..ya..thats good..just forget Jesus's birthday...ya..its just a day to get candy and free presents...I actually hear and use the "Merry Christmas" greeting quite often. Heard "Happy Holidays" also. So far no law has kept me from saying/greeting otherwise. BTW I do believe that Jesus Birthday was actually before Dec 25. Has the Christmas holiday been over-commercialized, most would say, yes. Because parents always want to shower their chikdren with love and gifts, they usually choose special holidays to do so. You didn't receive presents on Christmas when you were growing up? You didn't look forward to the joy of Christmas holiday? I know I did
That what PC has done....Soem good ..mostly bad...When you really look at it, how about some bad, mostly good?
and Btw..i find it pretty typical to hear from the "other" side ...you should ad..while her fellow counrty men were eating-torturing-murding..ect Americans too..if you want to add.."the horror of US Firebombing"....
could not of you just said "she lived in Tokyo-Japan during ww2?....seems that would of been PC for you to say..cause you kind of offend me with that....lolol..you dotn casue i expect that form "your types"..heheheKind of "offends" you? So the whole PC "Crap" offends you....except of course when you want it used to your favor. Just for clarification so you can sleep at night, my mother never blamed the Americans for what was done during the War. Growing up, we never even knew about her going through the bombings. Only when my sister and I were adults (during our inquiries) did she make mention of it. She never told us "Evil Americans" never said "Death to America" either... so relax. Was giving you perspective where she was during the war, nothing more. This wasn't going to be about WWII. It was partially about of a bygone era where J** was used frequently and visciously against Asian Americans (Even those not of Japanese ethnicity). Were the Japanese Military absolutely barbarically brutal during WWII? You bet. Murderers, torturers? Yup. We could go on about the attrocities of the Japanese Mlitary which would comprise a large thread of posts...if you wish. My mother was an innocent civillian cuaght in a brutal war. Was she in an unique situation? Unfotunelty not. Seems it was more common of the worlds population to be victims of the war in some way or another....but hey, maybe that's why we should avoid wars unless it is the last resort.
Love
BiGB
xoxo
Hortlund's right. You usually appear to have a meltdown when you type.
I envision you (relax, I know it's not true, just what I envision) being stuck in a padded room under observation in a straitjacket. You sometimes fool the nurses that you really did take your meds when in fact you haven't. During those periods you somewhat are able to escape out of your straightjacket to write a message with crayola crayons. You're then able to feed that crayola laden sheet of paper into a special scanner (which reads only crayons BTW) and "poof" the message appears here on this BBS. I'm sure your words are color-coded too. Red, White, and Blue for anything right-wing. Pink and yello for anything left-wing. :D
Oh BTW, I'll save you your response:
BGBMAW: "Diiieeeee SaburoS, DIE, you liberal, left-wing, pinko, socialist, facist, commie!!! My tractor needs an oil change! You mind? Why's the engine running? Cause the manual says the oil has to be warm."
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sheesh... let's hope the wussies never get control.... Can you imagine? banning words? why not burn the books they are in or just run a black permanent marker over some of the passages?
friggin scarry these little *****es.
lazs
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Oh... sabaro... How do you feel about rap? you should be on a personal campaign to rid the world of it no?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I use racial and other terms all the time. It is my way. I believe that I do it in an amusing way and I spare no one. I think that the people who want a PC world want a grey world...
lazs
It may be humurous for you, but not for everyone, especially those you jest. If you're not a member of the race in question, STFU about it.
yeah, I'm not PC either,
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ha ha saburo..why do i say i didnt read posts..so if i go over same thing that soemones lese said ..i would get.."dude..we said that"..
btw..Assault wepaons...THE BASIC THING ..THEY ARE NOT SEMI-AUTOMATIC ONLY!!..THATS the difference..
funny you say hard to read ..but you can reply no problem..
lose sleep over it..please..maybe in your dreams...
again in 1935 full autos-OR SELECT FIRE.. were banned for normal citizens..Nevada you can still aplly but..the rest...
and i was just pointing out the "biasis" that could be extracted from your "Horror of USBominG"..which I know it was.. but anyways...
and so f Hortluund ..and hell..F u too..
where is there a meltdown?...I really do want to physically punish morons..is that so bad?..Dotn you spank your kids when they do somthing the have been told not to do?...maybe maybe not..
but to here the Liberal Linguine spinned bioches cry about "assaulT weapons" --" no war for oil"--Bush is Hitler" capatilist wan tto kill you"...rich get richer poor get poorer" its such a load of crap..
I will not let them get away with it...
You know..you keep repeating lies enuff..people will beleive them..
I am here ..every so often to say..LIAR...very simple...
Ya..you have a neat little story .....
Saburo..I suppose you donate to the Democratic Party In California..If you do..you are a puke...They are trashing this state....
Barbara Boxer..Burton-Feinstein..Palosi....they are scum...the chik from Oakland...Disgusting maggots
SanFrancisco pays for its employees Sex Changes...wtf is tht BS..They should get there assses kiked...
We pay 1 million for a heart transplant of a convicted felon...and deny it to USEFUL -PRODUCTIVE Californians.....
Disgusting...
PC is Bullsheite...and when did I ever say..when it fits me im cool with it...
and hell..how about you brought this up..show me more good then bad PC ?
If its easy for you to say im in an asylum..so you dont have to answer truthfully..thats up to you and your "utopia" life
Love
BiGB
xoxo
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red tail... if you are around me you will just have to toughen up a taste. I certainly don't believe that words should be race specific as in... only whites can use the term "honky" or "cracker" . My girlfriend is of Mexican decent I sure am glad she isn't as sensitive as you colored folks.
I wish rappers would stfu but ..... Not my call.
Do you feel books that aren't PC should "stfu"? I mean, throw em in a nice toasty fire? How do you feel about rap?
Point is... banning words or making them race specific is censorhip in it's worst form... it also gives those words power.
didn't any of you guys have little brothers? maybe all you wusses were little brothers?
"if you say that about me again I'm gonna tell mommie!" Yep... go tell mommy...make the bad man stop! sheesh... you sissies probly vote for democrats and don't even think anything is wrong with that.
lazs
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well.... I guess bbgmaw said it a lot more eloquently than I ever could.
lazs
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May be we should just ban all words and not talk. That way nobody can get offended.
I find it amazing that people are affraid of some words. I mean what the hell makes a word so bad? Why do we have to say "African-American" instead of "Black", or "have sex" instead of "f!ck", or "administrative assistant" instead of a "secretary"? May be I'm just too young to understand that :confused:
And for the record, my friends, my family, and I use racial slurs all the time in our conversation in reference to our own races as well as some others. I don't use the in conversations with others because I was raised to be polite and some of it remained in my head when talking to overly sensitive types.
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SG.. I belive that you have the idea... It is encouraging to me to see that a young person is horrified by the thought of such censorship "for your own good".
There are many things that people shouldn't say to people that they don't know well... there is such a thing as being polite... it can't be mandated or regulated and shouldn't be... each individual has to feel their way around that. everyones comfort level and sensitivity is different... a polite person tries to work within those boundries but... I am not going to limit my way of expressing myself to accomadate the hyper sensitive. Not gonna happen.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
red tail... if you are around me you will just have to toughen up a taste. ... sheesh... you sissies probly vote for democrats and don't even think anything is wrong with that.
lazs
Ok tough guy. You win. I'm sure you drop N***er to any black man you see. And they dont say anything to you.
Get over yourself. I'm pretty sure you drop epithets whenever its safe. driving by in a car, or with a pack of buds to stand behind. I doubt you say anything to anyone when they're right in front of you.
Who are you fooling? lol
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So all this was an bellybutton backwards passive aggressive whine about using the term jap?
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red tail... read what I wrote. I don't go out of my way to offend people... well maybe a little but some people are damn easy to offend and deserve it.
I don't use the term you state much around black, colored, negro, african American, melonin superior whatevers... much but refuse to have much to do with one who gets too shook up with me if I do.
lazs
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What I find interesting is that certain slurs are ok to use with one group of people, but not another. For example I hear Black people call each other "n***er". Does it mean a different thing when a Black person says it? I believe the dictionary only has one definition ... not multiple ones for different races.
I know that someone brought it up with "cracker" and "honkey" as well.
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I don't use the term you state much around black, colored, negro, african American, melonin superior whatevers
I have learned to avoid them entirely if possible. Without exception, every black person I've ever worked with has used race as a tool or made race an issue in the environment.
I've never used racially slanted remarks in the office. When a black woman who I was at one time on friendly terms, and whom at the time I worked with, told me that "I could have you killed for the price of an 8-ball" and nothing was done about it, I became convinced of the double standard in society. This woman called me "cracker" and "white trash" and it was perfectly acceptable. When we were friends, she used to call me "Corn fed white boy". Not sure if it was an insult or not but I just ignored it.
I bet if I used anything even remotely racially charged I'd have been fired, sued, and vilified in the press.
I was fresh out of college then, where my best friend and roommate for two years was black. Had many friends and acquaintances who were black.
Now that I live in the real world and have learned harsh lessons, I will never hire, nor do business w/ a black person. I've learned that, generally speaking, black people are more racist that white people by far.
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This is an interesting link on the subject :)
http://www.rsdb.org/
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Originally posted by Stoned Gecko
Does it mean a different thing when a Black person says it?
Some would say yes. I don't like it, period. Sometimes other black people, mostly men, use it for any number of reasons. And there are more black people that don't like it, and don't sppreciate it being used, than there are who use it in everyday vernacular.
The stereotype is that black people use it all the time, and I can tell you, at least from my perspective, that is not the case at all. In any event, if you're not black and you use it, I'm fairly certain (and realizing I myself am following a stereotype myself here) that you aren't using it because you're trying to create some kind of bond with your fellow man.
It's bad practice to use epithets anyway, for any reason. "cracker" for example, is derived from slave bosses and overseers, regarding the crack of the whip.
They're all useless terms, IMO. Do as you all will, doesnt affect me either way. Unless it's said to me in person.
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Originally posted by Steve
Now that I live in the real world and have learned harsh lessons, I will never hire, nor do business w/ a black person. I've learned that, generally speaking, black people are more racist that white people by far.
Spoken like a true racist. :aok Those people should have been fired, w/o exception, but that's no excuse for you to assign a negative position on a billion people. For what? three idiots?
Your world must be a very sad place. I will pray for you, You need it.
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PC politeness in action.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Some would say yes. I don't like it, period. Sometimes other black people, mostly men, use it for any number of reasons. And there are more black people that don't like it, and don't sppreciate it being used, than there are who use it in everyday vernacular.
I don't suppose you have stats on that. Or is that just a guess?
The stereotype is that black people use it all the time, and I can tell you, at least from my perspective, that is not the case at all.
Agreed. I never said that all Black people use it all the time.
In any event, if you're not black and you use it, I'm fairly certain (and realizing I myself am following a stereotype myself here) that you aren't using it because you're trying to create some kind of bond with your fellow man.
Actually my Black friends don't get offended at all, and I don't say it with intent to insult them or put them down. Same goes with then they call me cracker. We just take that n***** means a Black person and c**** means a White person. Granted that others may, and probably will, take it as an insult ... but we can apply that to pretty much every word in the English language.
It's bad practice to use epithets anyway, for any reason.
Among people you don't know, probably. Unless of course you don't care who you offend. I don't see anything wrong with using them with the group that takes no offense and has no problem with them being used.
"cracker" for example, is derived from slave bosses and overseers, regarding the crack of the whip.
The link I posted also has another history, which links it to 16th century ... well before Black slaves in the US if my history is correct.
They're all useless terms, IMO. Do as you all will, doesnt affect me either way. Unless it's said to me in person.
And I respect your opinion.
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Spoken like a true racist. Those people should have been fired, w/o exception, but that's no excuse for you to assign a negative position on a billion people. For what? three idiots?
Spoken like a true black racist that doesn't have the courage to admit there are as many racist black people(percentage wise) as there are racist white people. :aok
I gave you an example of one person I encountered. I could give you others but you'd blame them on me as well. It's my fault that I've experienced enough racist bigotry to be on the defensive as far as black people go, it could never be the black persons' fault.
:rolleyes:
Edit: How do you explain away the black DJ that was fired recently when she said, on the air, she "has a problem" with white people?. She then went on to say that most of her black friends feel the same way. She later admitted to being prejudiced against white people and reiterated that most of her black friends feel the same.
It goes a lot deeper in the black community than "three idiots".
2nd Edit: as long as we're having this discussion, and you seem to think there isn't a double standard why there isn't a "Miss White America" contest? The black community would be up in arms. Yet, if white America complained about the "Miss Black America" contest it would be the white people labeled as racists.
There are all black schools... but if there were all white schools it would be a racist institution. Can July be White History Month? How can you not know these things and presume there is no double standard?
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Steve,
I will never forget Scott or Todd
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Who Merrill? Christianson?
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no!!!! not them!
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OK, who?
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Don't get all dense on me now.
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well, I'm glad you remember them because I am drawing a blank.
Get all dense on you? Dude, you've known me how long? We both know I have my "dense" moments. :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
Oh... sabaro... How do you feel about rap? I don't listen to it as it isn't "music" in my mind. A lot of today's youth seem to love it though and they swear it to be music. I'm not into disco or punk either. I guess my parent's didn't really like it when I'd ocassionally listen to Led Zeppelin. Seems each generation has to out do the previous in shock value.
you should be on a personal campaign to rid the world of it no?Poor analogy. Why should I? Someone playing rap or any music for that matter is not the same as one using labels dehumanizing individuals. Someone coming to my face and calling me derogatory names/labels should not get surprised that I don't react in a favorable way. That same person all of a sudden start playing a rap song wouldn't bother me.
lazs
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
ha ha saburo..why do i say i didnt read posts..so if i go over same thing that soemones lese said ..i would get.."dude..we said that"..Fair enough.
btw..Assault wepaons...THE BASIC THING ..THEY ARE NOT SEMI-AUTOMATIC ONLY!!..THATS the difference..No duh! Keep ranting, but don't blow a head gasket.
funny you say hard to read ..but you can reply no problem..
lose sleep over it..please..maybe in your dreams...I sleep quite well at night, but thank you for caring.
again in 1935 full autos-OR SELECT FIRE.. were banned for normal citizens..Nevada you can still aplly but..the rest...
and i was just pointing out the "biasis" that could be extracted from your "Horror of USBominG"..which I know it was.. but anyways...
and so f Hortluund ..and hell..F u too..Dude, didn't know you wanted to F*** me and Hortlund...ewwww. So, you Bi or Gay? That's ok, don't care how you swing. None of my concern.
where is there a meltdown?...I really do want to physically punish morons..is that so bad?..Dotn you spank your kids when they do somthing the have been told not to do?...maybe maybe not..When you get going, it appears to be a meltdown. Kind of like a 10 car pileup accident on the freeway hoping for survivors. BTW, you're not our parent to "spank" us.
but to here the Liberal Linguine spinned bioches cry about "assaulT weapons" --" no war for oil"--Bush is Hitler" capatilist wan tto kill you"...rich get richer poor get poorer" its such a load of crap..
I will not let them get away with it...Oh, you're such a stud! Can I have your autograph, you caped crusader of justice! How about you go over to Iraq and fight? You'll even get your own assault rifle.
You know..you keep repeating lies enuff..people will beleive them..
I am here ..every so often to say..LIAR...very simple...True, but better REALLY know the truth so you have a gauge to go by.
Ya..you have a neat little story .....
Saburo..I suppose you donate to the Democratic Party In California..If you do..you are a puke...They are trashing this state....And you would be very wrong.
Barbara Boxer..Burton-Feinstein..Palosi....they are scum...the chik from Oakland...Disgusting maggotsUnfortunetly, most politicians are. They go in wanting to make positive changes but once in office, they seem more interested in campaigning for the next election rather than doing their job. Goes for Republicans as well as Democrats. Oh BTW, I don't like Feinstein at all.
SanFrancisco pays for its employees Sex Changes..Yeah, I don't like that policy either..wtf is tht BS..They should get there assses kiked...
We pay 1 million for a heart transplant of a convicted felon...and deny it to USEFUL -PRODUCTIVE Californians.....Yeah, I don't like that policy either.
Disgusting...Agreed.
PC is Bullsheite...and when did I ever say..when it fits me im cool with it... You inferred it by your argument/complaint.
and hell..how about you brought this up..show me more good then bad PC ?Okay, the following I consider bad: Having seperate restrooms, dining areas, seats, entrances based on race. Excluding the right to vote based on race/sex. Labeling others in a demeaning way because of their race/sex. Classifying others as inferior based on race/sex. Not allowing others a fair shot at education because...., being beaten up......being lynched.......not getting a shot at all at a business contract.....
Bottom line, used to be that if you were not a white male, you never got an equal shot at anything, usually were actually excluded from competing at all. Used to not be able to participate in organized professional sports such as MLB, NBA, etc. We've come a long ways thanks to being PC.
I'll agree that is some areas (McDonalds being fined $1,000,000,00 because their coffee was too hot!!!) that our society is going overboard. On the whole, we've come out better than worse.
If its easy for you to say im in an asylum.I know you're not in an asylum. You just seem so over the top in your responses. Do you actually talk like that to others in real life? .so you dont have to answer truthfully.I always try to answer as honestly as I can. .thats up to you and your "utopia" life
Love
BiGB
xoxo
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by SaburoS
Poor analogy. Why should I? Someone playing rap or any music for that matter is not the same as one using labels dehumanizing individuals.
You've never listened to rap and its lyrics, have you?
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Originally posted by ravells
Funked asked, 'Which racial epithets did he use exactly?'
Well Funked, that's the delicious Mr Blackness of it all.
He'll write off an entire major religious group (at least hundreds of millions of people) as 'cowardly' and 'savages' - the latter indicating that he's really talking about Arabs rather than Muslims, but he'll draw the line at using racial epithets (how noble).
He says, 'There [sic] people have caused more harm to my people in the last 50 years its just sick.'
Thus carefully stepping around the holocaust - so he doesn't have to write off Germans as savages, or the many European nations which had pogroms preceeding that.
Priceless.
Ravs
Yeppers sell your PC bullchit to the families of the marines killed today !
I bet they have nothing but Love in there hearts for those poor old muslims.
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Originally posted by mietla
You've never listened to rap and its lyrics, have you?
I try to avoid it when possible, it's not for me. Not my taste in music.
Apples and oranges. If someone sat next to me and started listening to Rap music he liked would not offend me as much as that same person sitting next to me and started dressing me down because of my race. I would tolerate the first example, I would not the second one. I don't go around insulting others based on race, I expect the same courtesy.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
I don't go around insulting others based on race, I expect the same courtesy.
And that sir Is called good old manners.
As adults most of us learn that but sorry to say some dont.
But on the other hand I will call A murdering muslim just that.
I do not look down at an Iraqi as being less than me.
Indeed all man are egual as I see it.
But some chose a path of hate a nd voilence towards my country and its people.
To wich I will form an opinion of them that Is most negetive to be sure.
Also as a person of some jewish desent I have my other reasons for disliking the muslims of the world.
They teach hate in there mosque right!
Have you ever heard a priest or rabbi say go out and start a holy war against
those people! LOl Come on get real.
They are WACKED !! And they attacked our country and for that I am greatly offended:mad:
As Im sure alot of Americans are.
And then on top of that we see images of our people being dragged behind trucks and hung for display while these
"muslim" jump up and down Like YES savages.
Yep Im mad as h ell and I think Its time for some real payback!:aok
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
LOL
You should have named him Victor Charles. :D
Dammit Funked....get your bellybutton down here and help me cleanup this mess. Milk and Shredded Wheat, all over my keyboard, thanks *******.
:D
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Originally posted by LAWCobra
Yeppers sell your PC bullchit to the families of the marines killed today !
I bet they have nothing but Love in there hearts for those poor old muslims.
I hope they they don't think an entire religious group are 'cowardly savages' because some people who happen to be from that religious group consider themselves at war with us.
No, I'd expect that most of them are probably a little more intelligent about these issues than you are.
As you are a person of jewish decent, you may want to ask some questions of your own people as to why the have been for years, bulldozing down the houses of people who are not of their faith and building settlements on their land.
They teach hate in there mosque right!
Have you ever heard a priest or rabbi say go out and start a holy war against
those people! LOl Come on get real.
I'm very surprised that you have such in depth knowledge about what is said in Mosques all over the world. I suppose you must visit them regularly?
Ravs
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saburu... you are being very fuzzy headed about this. It's ok to sing or "rap" certain words but not say em in everyday conversation... it's all too confusinmg to me and I guess the best policy is to avoid being around or working with or living near minorities as much as possible..
PC promotes racism... Steve is right. I don't have any black friends.. they are all too different than me. I have Mexican and asian ones but they are not trying to sue me for words.
I have no interest in knowing people who have a "black culture"... They were born right here and raised just like I was... they want to be seperate then I will give them their wish.
If they are at the range with me shooting and acting like American humans then I will probly strike up a conversation with them and share guns, ammo and conversation.... If they show up wanting a job and not speaking an english that I understand or looking like a gangbanger or arfrican prince... I will pretend that they have a chance and then cross out their name.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
saburu... you are being very fuzzy headed about this.
My point is all about context and how it's used. When listening to music I rarely listen to the words as I tune them out. That would go for any type of music that I listen to for entertainment. Do you listen to rap? You seem the expert. I really don't care about lyrics in a song recording. You know what? You sure seem to be a bit over sensitive about this "PC" thing. Instead of addressing the issues at hand, you want to bring in excuses that somehow justify your actions of using racial epithets. You want to keep using those words in negative ways, go right ahead (freedom of speech and all), just spare me the whine of an apples and oranges example of "Well, what about them?" It's all about the perception of those in power. Those that control who gets the best positions and salary. The day minorities inhabit a proportionate #'s in politics and big business, will be the day I'll worry about "their" speech. Racism gets its sting from being used by those perceived as being in power.
It's ok to sing or "rap" certain words but not say em in everyday conversation...Not the same thing, even remotely. Have you been truly victimized because of rap? You losing sleep over its lyrics? You fail to concentrate on your job because ot it?
it's all too confusinmg to me and I guess the best policy is to avoid being around or working with or living near minorities as much as possible..So, you would actually go to the trouble of avoiding people because of the words and language you want to continue to use (knowing full well that it's insulting and degrading to certain people) rather than change your language altogether, now that's confusing.
PC promotes racism... Steve is right. In this case, you and he are wrong. You got it backwards. Political correctness was born because of racism in everyday life of minority Americans who happen to not be white.
I don't have any black friends.. Geez, it wouldn't be because they wouldn't be offended and degraded by your speech pattern would it?? That's hardly surprising.
they are all too different than me. I have Mexican and asian ones but they are not trying to sue me for words.So, you've actually been sued for your speech? Or are you just using another out of context example to "justify" your racially degrading language.
I have no interest in knowing people who have a "black culture"... They were born right here and raised just like I was...Here's the rub as it wasn't the same: You aren't reminded of your skin color everywhere you go in mainstream America. You don't have to be a "suspected" shoplifter when you step into stores, all because of your skin color. When going in for a job interview, you don't have to be extra qualified because you have a different skin color. Imagine going through that for your whole life and say "Yeah baby, isn't America wonderful!?" Wouldn't you look at life here differently than you now do?
they want to be seperate then I will give them their wish. Yeah, blame "them" for your attitudes. Don't hold yourself responsible at all. It's all their fault the way you are. I'm surprised you aren't the stronger individual here.
If they are at the range with me shooting and acting like American humans then I will probly strike up a conversation with them and share guns, ammo and conversation.... If they show up wanting a job and not speaking an english that I understand or looking like a gangbanger or arfrican prince... I will pretend that they have a chance and then cross out their name.That should go for anyone of any race, no?
lazs [/B]
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PC promotes racism... Steve is right. In this case, you and he are wrong. You got it backwards. Political correctness was born because of racism in everyday life of minority Americans who happen to not be white.
YOU are wrong. PC promotes racism, among other things. In many organizations, if two job candidates are equally qualified for a position and one happens to be a minority, the minority will get the job. Often this is done for fear of a discrimination lawsuit and/or to fill a quota. It's racism against white people.
Certain Universities require lower SAT score for minorities, causing openings to not be available for higher scoring white people.
This is more racism against white people for the sake of being PC.
Do you want more examples?
Tell me again, how does PC not promote racism?
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Originally posted by Steve
YOU are wrong. PC promotes racism, among other things. In many organizations, if two job candidates are equally qualified for a position and one happens to be a minority, the minority will get the job. Often this is done for fear of a discrimination lawsuit and/or to fill a quota. It's racism against white people.
Certain Universities require lower SAT score for minorities, causing openings to not be available for higher scoring white people.
This is more racism against white people for the sake of being PC.
Do you want more examples?
Tell me again, how does PC not promote racism?
Affirmative action was used to "level the playing field" so to speak. Affirmative action is a far cry for the total EXCLUSION of non-whites from jobs, schools, ect. that used to be. Affirmative action usually only affects a fraction of the majority that score on the lower end of the acceptable scores.
Good thing that the roles are not 100% reversed and that whites be EXCLUDED from everything.
Up until a few generations ago, if you were a white male, you had the most preferential of treatment and opportunity free of competition from minorites and women. The best of everything was open to competition to white males only. Everyone else was excluded. Things slowly started changing in the mid '60's.
Don't blame the minorities for wanting their share of the pie. Blame the racist exclusionary policies of our nation's past that ensured the disparity.
PC is good for the most part. :)
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OK Saburo, I'm going to ask you again, explain to me how PC does not promote racism.
How does lowering SAT scores for one ethnic group over another make anything "level"?
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The government can fix racism.
Racism can fix racism.
Try not to laugh.
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Tarmac, I do not think the Government can fix racism. I think they have fanned the flames of racism, actually.
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Yeah, my PC is starting to piss me off, I think it stands for Piece of Chit.
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Originally posted by Steve
Tarmac, I do not think the Government can fix racism. I think they have fanned the flames of racism, actually.
The "try not to laugh" was meant to show that the previous two statements were a bit tongue in cheek.
I don't think the government can fix much of anything. :)
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PC is a loveless half breed bastard child spawned from a half wit and a dip****.
"I'm a mechanical broom operator"
NO! You are a ****ing street sweeper!
-SW
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Originally posted by Steve
OK Saburo, I'm going to ask you again, explain to me how PC does not promote racism.
How does lowering SAT scores for one ethnic group over another make anything "level"?
Steve,
I've said a lot on the subject in this thread. I'm not going to repeat myself. My answers and how I view "PC" is posted above in this thread. I doubt very much that I'll change anyone's perceptions as those here won't change mine. Just giving insight on how I think and view the subject, nothing more, nothing less. I don't "dislike" anyone here at all despite the disagreements. We're all independent thinkers and that's what I respect about you all even if I disagree with some of you. Racism and prejudice are prevailent in all parts of the world, not just America. I know this, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
Heck, if Lazs and I ended up next to each other at a gun range, we'd probably have a great time discussing firearms and rail against the "ignorance" of certain gun control laws. heck, I'd offer he shoot my guns, he'd like them BTW. I would also bet he wouldn't get in my face and start railing against the "Japs" and "Nips" knowing that I was half-Japanese. I'll treat anyone with respect until they disrespect me.
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Good for you, Saburo. Good points, well made.
Ravs
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Politeness is always appropriate but should be voluntary. PC is what happens when you try to force people into being polite.
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Originally posted by Steve
In many organizations, if two job candidates are equally qualified for a position and one happens to be a minority, the minority will get the job. Often this is done for fear of a discrimination lawsuit and/or to fill a quota. It's racism against white people.
Legitimate studies show that this is just the opposite of the truth. Private employers who ask for "race" on an application are breaking the law. However when equally qualified applications are submitted.. one with a "white" name and one with a "black" name the white names are called 50% more often.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Politeness is always appropriate but should be voluntary. PC is what happens when you try to force people into being polite.
much worse that that. PC supporters do not limit themselves to a public critique. That would be perfectly fine. They have every right to have their opinion, argue for it, voice and defend it (publically or in private) and try to convice others to its merits.
They also have every right to call the opponents names, imply their own superiority etc., but this is where the politeness goes out the window (see red tail's post). Still perfectly alright.
But, when they start dragging the omnipotence of the goverment to force their view on others under threat of violence, they are becoming dangerous, very dangerous. And this is why I'll always fight them. Politely but with all my might.
Saburo, saying that AA is not racist is just dishonest. You can argue that it is a "justified racism" (which I will disagree with), but saying that AA is not racist is just plain dishonest.
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The problem with everybody, Iron is that they don't know where PC ends and politeness begins.
So it's a great excuse to be damn rude and when you're pulled up on it, to say, 'but oh I have freedom of speech' or, 'but oh, you're trying to be too pc'.
Maybe yes, maybe no, but as I said on an earlier thread, you don't call your mum a *****ing **** because she's cooked you a dinner you don't like and then try to justify that on free speech or pc grounds. We were all brought up better than that.
There is a time and place to say things and sometimes it is appropriate and sometimes it isn't and sometimes it's difficult to tell. The people who get on my nerves are the those who are so far off the bell curve (for example an individual who was responsible for the last locked thread) they have lost contact with the way that normal human beings live and ought to behave towards each other.
Ravs
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Legitimate studies show that this is just the opposite of the truth. Private employers who ask for "race" on an application are breaking the law. However when equally qualified applications are submitted.. one with a "white" name and one with a "black" name the white names are called 50% more o
Legitimate studies?
Ok, legitimate studies say the above is a bunch of BS.
Edit: I find it amusing how htose debating w/ me completley ignore my challenges. Here's a couple more: how well would "White Entertainment Television" go over?
White radio stations?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Legitimate studies show that this is just the opposite of the truth. Private employers who ask for "race" on an application are breaking the law. However when equally qualified applications are submitted.. one with a "white" name and one with a "black" name the white names are called 50% more often.
I can belive that MT.
So you know what I do when asked on an app what race I am?
I write in HUMAN and leave it at that.
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You wouldn't be repeating yourself Saburo, my challenges go unanswered by you because you do not have the answer without admitting that the bastard child of PC, affirmative action, is racist.
Some people might have been sucked in about how you don't dislike anyone here and you just disagre.. blah blah blah. That's all nice Saburo, but totally irrelevent to what we are talking about.
This discussion has nothing to do with how you and I feel about each other and neither of us has made this personal, I think.
I made points that show PC and affirmative action to be racist.
You counter my points by saying... oh wait... you didn't counter my points. I'll take that as admission of my position being correct.
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Originally posted by bullett308
So you know what I do when asked on an app what race I am?
I write in HUMAN and leave it at that.
why would yo ueven dignify this idiotic and clearly racist question. When they send me the Census Form, I reply with only one thing
4
this is the number of people in my household, and that is all they are entitled to know. They've been sending workers to bug me for weeks, never bothered ot even open the door.
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Originally posted by mietla
why would yo ueven dignify this idiotic and clearly racist question. .
To drive home a point!
My God It should be obvious to us all there is but one RACE and that is HUMAN.
We may come in different shapes colors and idiels but we are all human.
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Originally posted by Steve
Legitimate studies?
Edit: I find it amusing how htose debating w/ me completley ignore my challenges. Here's a couple more: how well would "White Entertainment Television" go over?
White radio stations?
I'd like to see how well "white history month" and "Miss White America" would go over as well.
PC is BS mostly. Why can't white people openly express being proud about being white and white history just like black people can? It's because it's not "PC"
The PC crowd is holding the doors of racism wide open and they don't even realise it.
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The concept of white and black has to forgotten.
And we must be remembered as just silly earthlings.
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Hey Steve I dig what you are saying man.
I once was trying out for the Dallas Fire dept.
And was told flat out my tan was not dark enough and my boobs where to small.
Oh And I'm a guy.
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Originally posted by Steve
You wouldn't be repeating yourself Saburo, my challenges go unanswered by you because you do not have the answer without admitting that the bastard child of PC, affirmative action, is racist.
Some people might have been sucked in about how you don't dislike anyone here and you just disagre.. blah blah blah. That's all nice Saburo, but totally irrelevent to what we are talking about.
This discussion has nothing to do with how you and I feel about each other and neither of us has made this personal, I think.
I made points that show PC and affirmative action to be racist.
You counter my points by saying... oh wait... you didn't counter my points. I'll take that as admission of my position being correct.
You, Mietla, as well as others are correct in asserting that Afirmative Action is basically a Government sponsored program that uses racism as a gauge to implement quotas. I've never disputed that. Is it a racist policy? Sure is. Is it a necessary program to undo the more racist EXCLUSION of the past to even the playing field? Yup. Is it fair to those whites that have been denied positions to less qualified non-whites? No.
It was more unfair to totally exclude whole groups of people even if they were more qualified than the white males that were given the position instead. You bet.
Because the whole range of issues from schooling, housing, jobs, etc., were not fair to minorities, AA lowered the entrance bar to allow them in the game, so to speak. It affected a percentage of whites lower in the scoring (Although they scored higher than those minorities let in under the newer, lower scoring guidelines.
Those whites scoring in the middle to high end of the pack were usually not affected under AA. AA is the lesser evil of the bigger exclusionary policies of the past, nec for a time to level the playing field.
Sorry, but white history is usually whats taught in classrooms in schools. The moment black history becomes the norm in our schools, and when minorities rule big business, rule our govt., and rule our schools, then I'll be be willing to have white history month, etc.
AA tries to assure that no group gets left behind.
Although racism still exists, we've come a long way, we still have a ways to go, though.
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. Is it fair to those whites that have been denied positions to less qualified non-whites? No.
Right my friend. I am reading you loud and clear. It's racist but it's ok because it is racist against white people.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
AA tries to assure that no group gets left behind.
Although racism still exists, we've come a long way, we still have a ways to go, though.
What defines the "group" ?
The best way to get over racism is to stop treating some "groups" of people differently than other "groups"of people.
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Sorry, but white history is usually whats taught in classrooms in schools.
Wrong!
Pick up any public school history text book. MLK gets more coverage than any American President. Schools in Texas were told to distort history about the Alamo so as to not paint the Mexicans in a bad light.
White history. This is brutally racist. Umm other than the real players involved, how can you teach history other than how it occurred.
I know! You could falsely add hispanics and blacks into history, just like they wanted to do at the WTC memorial. Let's change history so nobody gets offended. Brilliant!
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Here ya go Steve. Now say you're sorry and play nice......
Bias curtails blacks' advancement (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/6886363.htm?1c)
In one of the most innovative of these new studies, Marianne Bertrand of the University of Chicago and Sendhil Mullainathan of MIT measured the extent of race-based job discrimination in the current labor market.
Their study is titled ''Are Emily and Brendan More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?'' The re searchers sent fictitious resumes in response to help-wanted ads, each randomly assigned either a white-sounding name (Emily Walsh, Brendan Baker) or a black-sounding name (Lakisha Washington, Jamal Jones).
The study found that applicants with white-sounding names were 50 percent more likely to get called for an initial interview than applicants with black-sounding names. What's more, higher quality resumes provided little advantage for black applicants.
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so Bullett, did you opt for the tanning lotion and a boob job or look for other means of employment?
It was prejudicial to deny you employment but it's OK and PC because you are white.
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Originally posted by NUKE
I'd like to see how well "white history month" and "Miss White America" would go over as well.
PC is BS mostly. Why can't white people openly express being proud about being white and white history just like black people can? It's because it's not "PC"
The PC crowd is holding the doors of racism wide open and they don't even realise it.
I'll tell you what:
Let's have all the whites give up all their wealth and property and be slaves of the minorities for the next 400 years or so. The whites will be excluded from owning any businesses, not allowed in schools, will be treated like animals, will be killed, lynched, all because they were white.
400 years from now, we'll have minorities wailing against the racist policies of the govt for allowing whites to get jobs and entry into schools at the expense of some minorities in the future. We can then support White history month and have a White Miss America. There will be those minorities that'll yell racism and complain about it even though the Miss America pagent and the history classes pretty much excluded whites and concentrated on minorities only.
Extreme example sited to give you a perspective of the shoe on the other foot.
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The link doesn't work for me bro. Miami Herald? lol. I thought for a sec you were bringing me credible evidence.
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Let's have all the whites give up all their wealth and property and be slaves of the minorities for the next 400 years or so.
So this is your excuse for advocating racism against white people?
Our ancestors committed deeds that are now considered repugnant so the living white people should pay for their misdeeds?
Tell you what Saburo, the Japanese brutally occupied China for many years. What say we let the Chinese occupy Japan for a like amount of time and allow them to murder and rape whom they please? Sound fair?
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Originally posted by Steve
Right my friend. I am reading you loud and clear. It's racist but it's ok because it is racist against white people.
Misreading me.
What would you do to level the playing field? How would you undo the racist results of the last 400 or so years?
If you can come up with a better solution than AA, I'll be all for it.
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http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/news/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Here ya go Steve. Now say you're sorry and play nice......
Bias curtails blacks' advancement (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/6886363.htm?1c)
Black and White sounding names? Like what? Isn't that racist in itself to suggest a name can be black or white?
What "white" names did they use? What "Black" names did they use?
They probably used extreme examples from each "perceived" grouping. For example, Im guesing they probably didn't use "Billy Bob Joe", "Bubba Smith", "Slim Walters", or "Scooter Johnson" as the "white" names.
I didn't know there were specific black names. Did black names like Todd, Scott, David, Ron, William, Steven, George...etc get used in the control group?
What a joke.
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Scooter... lol does anyone really name their kid that anymore?
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How would you undo the racist results of the last 400 or so years?
By this you mean that you agree we should allow the Chinese to occupy Japan for a number of years, this would undo the horrible things the Japanese did?
Minorities may love AA, I cannot blame those without foresite for doing so. The fact is that AA holds the door to racism wide open. It isn't undoing anything.
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"Are Emily and Brendan More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?"
Do you want me to read it to you too?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
"Are Emily and Brendan More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?"
Do you want me to read it to you too?
Emily and Brendon are not exclusive to white people. Are Bubba and Scooter more employable than Emily and Brandon?
The study is flawed.
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Originally posted by Steve
So this is your excuse for advocating racism against white people? No, just showing an example of equal racism to whites as it happened to minorities.
Our ancestors committed deeds that are now considered repugnant so the living white people should pay for their misdeeds?Don't be so quick to wash the modern white man's hands so clean yet. Without AA the minorities in this country would not be anywhere near the economic equality that they have now. They still haven't reached equality, but it's better than the past. Racism still exists. The moment it doesn't to those in charge of the hiring, acceptong of applicants, etc., is the moment I'll say so to AA. The AA programs started in the '60's haven't equalized the 400 or so previous years of total oppression.
Tell you what Saburo, the Japanese brutally occupied China for many years. What say we let the Chinese occupy Japan for a like amount of time and allow them to murder and rape whom they please? Sound fair? How in the world is this relevant to our discussion??!!
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I win
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How in the world is this relevant to our discussion??!!
Well, you're saying the white people in today's America have to suffer for the deeds of their ancestors... that this is the way to undo 400 years of misdeeds. With this in mind, it's only fair that the Chinese move into Japan to rape and pillage at will to undo what the Japanese did in China. It is exactly the same scenario. This would be equal racism.
Ohhhh you don't like this... what's the matter, no white people suffering?
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The experiment also has another flaw as well.
The black and white resume were examined by different employers. The "white" resume might have been the best candidate for one employer, while the "black" resume might not have been the best in the stack it was in. This study assumes that the reason there was no callback is because of race and discounts all others.
A good control for this would be to send two resume's, one superior one with a "black" name on it, and a inferior one with a "white" name on it, and look at the callback rate.
Secondly, the party that's running the experiment does not know exactly what the potential employer is looking for. Unless the resumes are completely identical, there might be something in the "white" resume that would can't an employer's eye, such as a certain skill, or the way something is worded, that's not in the "black" one. Unless of course the difference is so great that not even my grandma's dog would hire that person for the position.
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Originally posted by Steve
By this you mean that you agree we should allow the Chinese to occupy Japan for a number of years, this would undo the horrible things the Japanese did?
Minorities may love AA, I cannot blame those without foresite for doing so. The fact is that AA holds the door to racism wide open. It isn't undoing anything.
Hypothetical here:
You are now President of the USA. The Senate and Congress supports you 100%.
What programs would you support since you'll be eliminating AA. How would minorities get a fair shot?
Like I said, come up with a fairer, better program than AA and I'll support it 100%. Until then if nothing better comes along, I'll support it.
BTW, from my father's side I am German, Danish, English, and French Canadian. My mother's side, Japanese. I was born in SF., Ca., my father in LA., Ca., my grandfather in Washington State.
I'm an American, not a Japanese National, so can the what the Japanese did arguments.
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Don't be so quick to wash the modern white man's hands so clean yet. Without AA the minorities in this country would not be anywhere near the economic equality that they have now.
Black athetes are a great example of how AA is used to get minorities into the higher paying jobs that they otherwise wouldn't be able to qualify for.
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You are now President of the USA. The Senate and Congress supports you 100%. What programs would you support since you'll be eliminating AA. How would minorities get a fair shot?
Bravo my friend! Here is the real crux of the problem!!! This is where I've been waiting for you to arrive!
You are saying that you support AA because nothing better is out there. So, since there is nothing better out there, it is ok to continue to discriminate against white people.
You are almost there.
Nothing will work until society changes. The government cannot legislate equality among the races.. it doesn't work.. AA doesn't work.. it causes resentment.... racial tension. You're willing to live w/ it, fine. If you are happy w/ the status quo, racially divisive policies, good for you! I'm telling you that there will never be anything near approaching racial harmony as long as AA is in effect. So my friend, you and those who believe in AA have purchased this "level playing field" at a dear price....enjoy.
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Originally posted by Steve
Well, you're saying the white people in today's America have to suffer for the deeds of their ancestors... that this is the way to undo 400 years of misdeeds. With this in mind, it's only fair that the Chinese move into Japan to rape and pillage at will to undo what the Japanese did in China. It is exactly the same scenario. This would be equal racism.
Ohhhh you don't like this... what's the matter, no white people suffering?
It's an apples to oranges comparison. Want to bring up the German history as well? How about we stick to American history since we're both Americans. LOL, on the whole white people are hardly suffering in today's America. Listening to your arguments, I'd get the impression that whites are being repressed in today's America. That is far from the case.
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It's an apples to oranges comparison.
Why? You want to show racial prejudice against white people because they were racially prejudiced in the past.
I think the Chinese should be able to rape and pillage Japan because the Japanese raped and pillaged China.
I'm using your logic.
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Saburo, let me put it another way, taking the race. Group A was oppressed by Group B for X amount of time. Are you saying that whatever time Group B has to get oppressed by Group A for X amount of time to "undo" the past? Exactly how does it become undone?
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Originally posted by Steve
Bravo my friend! Here is the real crux of the problem!!! This is where I've been waiting for you to arrive!
You are saying that you support AA because nothing better is out there. So, since there is nothing better out there, it is ok to continue to discriminate against white people.
You are almost there.
Nothing will work until society changes. The government cannot legislate equality among the races.. it doesn't work.. AA doesn't work.. it causes resentment.... racial tension. You're willing to live w/ it, fine. If you are happy w/ the status quo, racially divisive policies, good for you! I'm telling you that there will never be anything near approaching racial harmony as long as AA is in effect. So my friend, you and those who believe in AA have purchased this "level playing field" at a dear price....enjoy.
AA affects only a percentage of the hiring/placement for white people, it is by no means a program of "racism" against the majority of whites. Amazing how this AA program has been labeled an "evil racist" program that doesn't work.
Because of the racial devide we've had in our history, thanks to AA the near equality we see today has been the result because of it, not inspite of it. There's never been racial harmony in our past before AA. Are we "there" yet? No. Are we better off than before? You bet. We have a ways to go still.
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Originally posted by Stoned Gecko
Saburo, let me put it another way, taking the race. Group A was oppressed by Group B for X amount of time. Are you saying that whatever time Group B has to get oppressed by Group A for X amount of time to "undo" the past? Exactly how does it become undone?
Until a better program comes around, AA.
Any suggestions?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Until a better program comes around, AA.
Any suggestions?
I suggest AA for sports teams too then, might as well be even handed, right?
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Originally posted by Steve
Right my friend. I am reading you loud and clear. It's racist but it's ok because it is racist against white people.
You are not reading me at all. You are seeing only what you only want to see.
How about you finally give me a courtesy of a solution better than AA? How do you ensure racial equality in all the best places?
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Lemme get this right:
Naughty racist words - BAD
Government sponsored racism - GOOD
:confused:
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Until a better program comes around, AA.
Any suggestions?
Have the government do nothing except ensure that no individual's rights are violated.
There's your better program.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Have the government do nothing except ensure that no individual's rights are violated.
There's your better program.
Bravo :aok
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What Tarmac said, but with one more thing to add.
Make sure the same amount of money goes to all students K through 12.
No more poor schools getting the shaft while schools in white neighborhoods prosper.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Lemme get this right:
Naughty racist words - BAD What, they're not?
Government sponsored racism - GOODUsed to be against minorities in much worse way.
:confused:
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Have the government do nothing except ensure that no individual's rights are violated.
There's your better program.
Sounds good, how is it enforced and monitored?
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OK, just was trying to figure out what kind of racist you are.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Sounds good, how is it enforced and monitored?
Someone has a complaint, it's investigated. Charges can be brought in criminal (requiring guilt beyond a reasonable doubt) or civil (preponderance of evidence) court.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
OK, just was trying to figure out what kind of racist you are.
So now you're calling me a racist?
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AA affects only a percentage of the hiring/placement for white people,
Once again you rationalize racism because it only affects "a few" white people. WTG!
I thought I had you on the right path..... my mistake.
Like I've previously stated, enjoy your AA, the wounds of racism will remain open, unhealing, and festering as long as it is in place.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
So now you're calling me a racist?
Unless I read wrong, you favor racist goverment policies, which would pretty much make you a racist.
I think maybe you are a just a bad troll though. :)
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Originally posted by SaburoS
So now you're calling me a racist?
a racist descriminates based on race, what does AA do again?
edit: I win
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Originally posted by Steve
so Bullett, did you opt for the tanning lotion and a boob job or look for other means of employment?
It was prejudicial to deny you employment but it's OK and PC because you are white.
I went to work for a private ambulance service making far less money.
I am against AA I think It drives a further wedge between "white people" and none Whites.
By putting people in boxes or catagories we set ourselves up to be different form each other.
For instance why do they even bother asking what "race " you are on an application?
I used to hear dipatchers in my ambulance company give out calls like this.
45year old BLACK male complaining of chest pains.
Now what difference does it make If he was black or white?
The treatment for an Acute MI are the same.
It Is just stupid as I see It.
When I was in the Army in the 70s my room mate was a black dude and I caught more crap for rooming with a black guy you would not belive tha names I was called.
But you know what He was more of a man than any of them little boys that were pretending to be men!
So my point Is just look at a man as a man no matter what color his skin is.
And maybe someday this country will let the old wounds heal and we can acheive the greatness we all know we can together.
So in turn dont call me a white man just call me a man.
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btw..Assault wepaons...THE BASIC THING ..THEY ARE NOT SEMI-AUTOMATIC ONLY!!..THATS the difference..No duh! Keep ranting, but don't blow a head gasket.
Assualt rifle in the military sense is a select fire, quick chage box magazine, with an intermediate cartridge.
sorry i just thougth you sure type more then needed..we dont need all the minute detail....Automayic is th eKEy Word..all thats is neeeded...anyways...
boo..you type to much ..but...
I strongly believe there are MORE CORRUPT CRAPPY Democrat "Leaders" then Repubs... you are in Cali right...How about you naem the crapsss repubs..ill call the disgusting Dems..Feinstein-Boxer-Burton-Black Chik From Oaktown...hell thats just the top 4 craps...
And I guess I dont feell it is becuse of 'PC'..thats we abolsihed slavery..lmfao..THAT IS common decency to me..bUT Affirmative Action..what a LOAD of CRAP..
And you say do i talk in real life like this..are you a moron?..is this a fanatasy BB?? NO
fuq yes I do..and I will tell you to your face if I think you are a linguine Spinned Liberal.. why lie
lose sleep over it..please..maybe in your dreams...I sleep quite well at night, but thank you for caring.
hmmm nevermind .,,this went over your head..I guess you did not understand, I didnt use all your fancy crayola colors for quotingl
ololol
I suppose you Support Hanoi Jane?
Love
BiGB
xoox
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Originally posted by NUKE
a racist descriminates based on race, what does AA do again?
edit: I win
AA tries to "level the playing field" so to speak. To undo the true racism of the past. Do a small percentage of whites get the short end of the stick? Yup. Price we have to pay to equalize past injustices. Make no mistake about it, those were true racist times with official govt backing. AA assures no group will be excluded, including whites.
You lose.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Unless I read wrong, you favor racist goverment policies, which would pretty much make you a racist.
I think maybe you are a just a bad troll though. :)
You read it wrong. Up until the 50's-60's it was govt policy to exclude minorities. AA sought out to level it as fairly as possible. Is AA perfect? No, but it's the best thing we've got.
I'm repeating myself here.
This conversation, I've tried to keep it above board, but it appears it's heading into a downward spiral. What started as a comment and request to keep this BBS something that the worlds community of AH plyers can feel comfortable with out seeing the racial epithets, has turned into a "AA is racism, since you support AA, you're a racist!!"
Funny that I be labeled a racist by one that likes using racial epithets. No racism there! :rolleyes:
Do you actually have something constructive to add to our discussion?
PS. I don't troll.
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
sorry i just thougth you sure type more then needed..we dont need all the minute detail....Automayic is th eKEy Word..all thats is neeeded...anyways...Care to describe the NFA? What about the $200.00 transfer tax? So all those law-abiding Americans that own true assault rifles, submachine guns, etc., were breaking the law? Why are we talking about this anyway? I believe we are in general agreement about some gun laws.
boo..you type to much ..but...
I strongly believe there are MORE CORRUPT CRAPPY Democrat "Leaders" then Repubs... you are in Cali right...How about you naem the crapsss repubs..ill call the disgusting Dems..Feinstein-Boxer-Burton-Black Chik From Oaktown...hell thats just the top 4 craps...Key phrase is "I believe." You know what? I'll agree with you here. You believe your statement. You think I'm going to say you don't believe it?
And I guess I dont feell it is becuse of 'PC'..thats we abolsihed slavery..lmfao..THAT IS common decency to me..bUT Affirmative Action..what a LOAD of CRAP..Again, your belief.
And you say do i talk in real life like this..are you a moron?..is this a fanatasy BB?? NO
fuq yes I do..and I will tell you to your face if I think you are a linguine Spinned Liberal.. why lieGood for you. If I believe that you're a psychotic, fanatic, moron. I can say that to your face as well. Why lie?
lose sleep over it..please..maybe in your dreams...I sleep quite well at night, but thank you for caring. LOL, lose sleep over what? The drivel you call typing? The complete over-the-top lunacy you spew? Actually it's quite entertaining to see. Didn't know real live people talked/typed like you do.
hmmm nevermind .,,this went over your head..I guess you did not understand, I didnt use all your fancy crayola colors for quotingl
olololOh, I understand perfectly, Question is, do you?
I suppose you Support Hanoi Jane?LOL, and again you would be wrong. Are you actually going to make a point using original thought?
Love
BiGB
xoox
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saburu.. when I was growing up in the fifties it was in Hawthorne LA.. this was a place where a lot of the jap families ended up after WWII and internment... I was raised with em.. played with em... they lived in half the houses on my block and I have been in every one of em... the moms taught me to fold paper and carve soap and I seen that rice could come in burlap bags... I taught their kids to do cub scout things and such...
I am a little offended by your portrayual of me "railing" against japs and such. I don't "rail" against races... I know several asians.. the ones I am comfortable with I can say jap gun or jap plane.. the ones that are too sensitive are not worth knowing better anyway. I will make fun of the stereotype and comment on their driving or interest in cameras and they will make okie jokes. That is comfotable to me and hardly "railing".
MT... you are probly right. there wil allways be predjudice... I am more "predjudiced" against blacks and women every year. I will do my best to avoid hiring them or renting to them. I will try to avoid contact with the majority of them. They are not worth the risk.
Why hire a black or a woman when it entails a whole new set of cautions and rules? Why should I open myself up to that? or rent to a black and lose power over my own property? Why would I want to be around someone who does their best to spit on the things I like yet is hyper sensitive to anything that can be construed as "racist" against them? Why would I bother?
Another example... I see the same woman walking to the bus station every morning... I drive by her.. she is young and well dressed. In uncomfortable shoes and nice clothes... rain or shine.. I have to drive right by her and her bus stop. Yesterday I was running a little late... so was she... she was running in those heels. I didn't dare stop and offer a ride....
That is afirmative action to me. I am smarter than the guys who make the afirmative action rules. I will get around em every time. I will hire who I want and rent to who I want and hang out with who I want... If you try to force me you will force me to go the other way. I am not alone in this.
lazs
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and MT... I also spent summers in the fifties in Arkansas... there were colored drinking fountains and colored sections in the soda fountain. They were on their way out without any law. people were sympathetic... the real bigots didn't get any less bigoted by any law but a lot of the moderates became resentful. that is the legacy of afirmative action and PC..
resentment.
lazs
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Originally posted by NUKE
I win
I'm picturing Gollum dancing with the ring at the edge of the cliff.
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Bottom line here folks...
Racism exists and it has hurt certain groups of people for no other reason than the color of their skin. Yes there is less of it than before, but it is still too prevalent to ignore. Sometimes medicine tastes bad.
AA has existed for white people for hundreds of years. How many poorly qualified white men got into ...say...Yale just because their Daddy went there?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Bottom line here folks...
Racism exists and it has hurt certain groups of people for no other reason than the color of their skin. Yes there is less of it than before, but it is still too prevalent to ignore. Sometimes medicine tastes bad.
AA has existed for white people for hundreds of years. How many poorly qualified white men got into ...say...Yale just because their Daddy went there?
and two wrongs make a right?
I don't think so brother :)
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Originally posted by SaburoS
AA tries to "level the playing field" so to speak. To undo the true racism of the past.
That's great, did you just read that off of an AA pamphlet? AA doesn't "undo" anything, the past is still there.
Do a small percentage of whites get the short end of the stick? Yup. Price we have to pay to equalize past injustices. Make no mistake about it, those were true racist times with official govt backing. AA assures no group will be excluded, including whites.
So, "a small percentage of whites" have to pay for the past policies of the US government? Regardless of whether they were alive, or able to vote when these policies were in place? AA doesn't assure squat for whites, as we are not a protected ethnic group. Government mandated racism is racism pure and simple. Giving preference in hiring / financial aid / housing / etc based on race is racism. There's no ifs ands or buts about it. Two wrongs do not make a right (I can't believe I'm echoing something Eagler said!).
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But AA is good racism!!!
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How has AA existed for white people? your example of "yale" would apply to any race. They weren't accepted because of skin color.. a poor non connected white would have no chance.
racism will allways exist. so will prejudice against people who are different. I don't like to hang out with colored people who are into "black culture" or white people with nose rings and purple spiked hair.
I don't want black people or women on the job with me because of the legal climate that PC and AA has caused.
I am polite to everyone but will backlash faster to someone who is "different" and impolite to me... that is human nature.
AA causes resentment... that is the bottom line. If you thinkit is worth it then that is fine too but don't pretend the resentment is a good thing.
saburo... How can you possibly say that rap does not affect me or anyone else? we are bombarded with it... it pops up in movies and TV and iis blasted from cars that are parked or moveing... I hear 10 times more racist crap from rap than I will ever hear in normal conversation. You are being dishonest to make a point.
lazs
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Originally posted by SaburoS
You read it wrong. Up until the 50's-60's it was govt policy to exclude minorities. AA sought out to level it as fairly as possible. Is AA perfect? No, but it's the best thing we've got.
I'm repeating myself here.
This conversation, I've tried to keep it above board, but it appears it's heading into a downward spiral. What started as a comment and request to keep this BBS something that the worlds community of AH plyers can feel comfortable with out seeing the racial epithets, has turned into a "AA is racism, since you support AA, you're a racist!!"
Funny that I be labeled a racist by one that likes using racial epithets. No racism there! :rolleyes:
Do you actually have something constructive to add to our discussion?
PS. I don't troll.
You come in here decrying racist speech. Then you proclaim your support for affirmative action, which is a racist policy by definition. Then when somebody points our your blatant hyprocisy you start griping about spirals and being "constructive". If you are going to get all self righteous and preachy, you have to expect to be challenged, and you had better have your ideological house in order.
Are you sure you are not trolling? I can't believe you would be stupid enough to not see that a government policy that discriminates against whites and asians is racism. I can't believe that you would be stupid enough to think that these racist actions by the government, which take away educational and economic opportunities from deserving people, are not far more damaging than mere words.
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Originally posted by SOB
So, "a small percentage of whites" have to pay for the past policies of the US government? Regardless of whether they were alive, or able to vote when these policies were in place? AA doesn't assure squat for whites, as we are not a protected ethnic group. Government mandated racism is racism pure and simple. Giving preference in hiring / financial aid / housing / etc based on race is racism. There's no ifs ands or buts about it. Two wrongs do not make a right (I can't believe I'm echoing something Eagler said!).
Bingo! We have a winner!
Mox
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You want the government to give you freebies at the expense of others but then cry when there is resentment?
lazs
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Bottom line here folks...
Racism exists and it has hurt certain groups of people for no other reason than the color of their skin.
Yes, but...
1. racist come in every skin color themselves
2. it is a social issue, government has no right to interfere and decide who deserves help and on whose expense. It is unconstitutional to restrict someone in order to benefit another.
I have absolutely no problem with personal AA, where you and I decide to help some and not others, that is our constitutional right. I have a right to associate with whoever I please, dine with anyone I please, and discriminate as I please. As a matter of fact discrimination is very important. I discriminate based on a whole bunch of factors. No one has a right to be liked by me or to be invited to lunch with me, just like I don't have this right.
I have to problem with private institutions doing the same. I have a right to rent my property to whoever I please at any price I please without giving a reason or explanation. In my private business I have every right to hire whoever I please and again, same rules apply. If you take this right away from me, it is not my business anymore. And this is a direct violation of my constitutional rights.
In other words, I do support any kind of AA directed towards or against anyone you please, for any reason whatsoever. In your business you can hire black only, or homosexuals only, or whites only, whatever. It is your decision. But you have no right to tell me to do the same.
As soon as the government with its power comes in, we have a totally different situation. The problem is that thay have power to violate our constitutional rights and force us to do things or forbid us from doing them. It got to the point where they are controlling what we can or can not say. And this is absolutely unacceptable. Not because I don't like it, but because they have no right to do that.
Yes there is less of it than before, but it is still too prevalent to ignore. Sometimes medicine tastes bad.
I don't need any medicine, thank you. I did not harm anyone and I feel no guilt. I you do, please take all the medicine you want, but leave me out of it, thank you very much. I do not need to be "cured".
AA has existed for white people for hundreds of years.
yes, and that is why we have eliminated racist laws. AA supporters on the other hand, want to keep the racist laws, just reverse the target.
How many poorly qualified white men got into ...say...Yale just because their Daddy went there? [/B]
Is it a private institution? See above (any reason whatsoever) ...
MT, please do not take it as a personal attack.
You have black sons. I do not know whether there are adopted or perhaps your wife is black, but if it is the latter, why would you call them black? They are as white as they are black.
Again, I do not know whether you have white sons or not, but if you had a white son, would you teach your sons differently?
"you Bob have to work and study hard, but you Jim do not worry. You get extra 500 points"
Of course you would not. They are both your sons, they have exactly same rights and priviledges, they both grew up in the same environment and you love them as much. The only difference is that they have a different skin color.
But this is waht government sponsored (or should I say extorted) AA is all about. Skin color is all that counts.
It is wrong, it is immoral and it is unconstitutional. Your perhaps noble goal of social equality, does not change any of that.
We, both government and the public have to stop treating people as members of groups, but treat them as individuals with all their faults and assets instead.
Treating people a groups, leads to special group priviledges or to discrimination.
I believe that group treatment contributed to racial discrimination greatly both in a past and now.
BTW, there is not such thing like "social equality". There is only a side effect of how the people live their lives independently from each other.
Just like many other things, economy for example. The economy is not "declared" bad or good. It is what it is. It is a net result of people living their lives and making their decisions independently.
Same with "social equality", you can't just declare it into being by your wishes and government's edicts.
Every time the government (or activist people via the government) was trying to fix, or even worse, plan and "design" the economy or society, it turned out into a disaster. Just a matter of time.
"Social equality" has been tried many times...
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Bottom line here folks...
Racism exists and it has hurt certain groups of people for no other reason than the color of their skin. Yes there is less of it than before, but it is still too prevalent to ignore. Sometimes medicine tastes bad.
AA has existed for white people for hundreds of years. How many poorly qualified white men got into ...say...Yale just because their Daddy went there?
Partially correct. It was even worse (and that's the point anti-AA folks are getting upset about). It wasn't AA, it was total exclusion of non whites. Say there were 3,000 spots open for students at the best university, 200 executive job openings available at the best corporation, positions in politics, etc. we're talking 100% exclusion of minorities.
In AA, whites are not excluded totaly or even mostly, just a fraction.
AA's not even in the same ballpark of examples past.
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Originally posted by lazs2
saburu.. when I was growing up in the fifties it was in Hawthorne LA.. this was a place where a lot of the jap families ended up after WWII and internment... I was raised with em.. played with em... they lived in half the houses on my block and I have been in every one of em... the moms taught me to fold paper and carve soap and I seen that rice could come in burlap bags... I taught their kids to do cub scout things and such...
I am a little offended by your portrayual of me "railing" against japs and such. I don't "rail" against races... I know several asians.. the ones I am comfortable with I can say jap gun or jap plane.. the ones that are too sensitive are not worth knowing better anyway. I will make fun of the stereotype and comment on their driving or interest in cameras and they will make okie jokes. That is comfotable to me and hardly "railing".Then stop using "Jap" in your portrayals! You want to make the picture complete and start using "Kraut" for people and things German? How about "N*****" for black people? "Chink" for chinese people and things? The problem with these labels is they are degrading . They bring up a time when for no other reason, people were victimized by whites, (beaten, killed, stolen from, constant public humiliation, comitted of crimes they didn't do, lynched, etc.) because of the way they looked. The Japanese Americans were stripped of their rights during WWII and practically everything was taken from them and they were relocated. Their property and businesses were also taken by them. Stolen. Funny that you get all wound up because you feel it unjust because I ask that you not use a degrading label as "Jap" when referring to Japanese people and things.
MT... you are probly right. there wil allways be predjudice... I am more "predjudiced" against blacks and women every year. I will do my best to avoid hiring them or renting to them. I will try to avoid contact with the majority of them. They are not worth the risk.
Why hire a black or a woman when it entails a whole new set of cautions and rules? Why should I open myself up to that? or rent to a black and lose power over my own property? Why would I want to be around someone who does their best to spit on the things I like yet is hyper sensitive to anything that can be construed as "racist" against them? Why would I bother?
Another example... I see the same woman walking to the bus station every morning... I drive by her.. she is young and well dressed. In uncomfortable shoes and nice clothes... rain or shine.. I have to drive right by her and her bus stop. Yesterday I was running a little late... so was she... she was running in those heels. I didn't dare stop and offer a ride....
That is afirmative action to me. I am smarter than the guys who make the afirmative action rules. I will get around em every time. I will hire who I want and rent to who I want and hang out with who I want... If you try to force me you will force me to go the other way. I am not alone in this. That's the problem, and that's why AA should still exist. You've just proven by admission that you still discriminate against certain people against housing and job opportunity.
lazs
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
You come in here decrying racist speech. Then you proclaim your support for affirmative action, which is a racist policy by definition. Then when somebody points our your blatant hyprocisy you start griping about spirals and being "constructive". If you are going to get all self righteous and preachy, you have to expect to be challenged, and you had better have your ideological house in order.
Are you sure you are not trolling? I can't believe you would be stupid enough to not see that a government policy that discriminates against whites and asians is racism. I can't believe that you would be stupid enough to think that these racist actions by the government, which take away educational and economic opportunities from deserving people, are not far more damaging than mere words.
It seems we're arguing about two different things here.
1) Using racially degrading labels. So, you think it's okay to use it here?
2) AA being "Racist". When a majority of whites are excluded from any "power" position whether it be jobs or education, then I'll be ahead of the line railing against racism.
1 and 2 have nothing to do with each other despite some trying to make it so.
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Originally posted by mietla
Yes, but...
1. racist come in every skin color themselves
2. it is a social issue, government has no right to interfere and decide who deserves help and on whose expense. It is unconstitutional to restrict someone in order to benefit another.
I have absolutely no problem with personal AA, where you and I decide to help some and not others, that is our constitutional right. I have a right to associate with whoever I please, dine with anyone I please, and discriminate as I please. As a matter of fact discrimination is very important. I discriminate based on a whole bunch of factors. No one has a right to be liked by me or to be invited to lunch with me, just like I don't have this right.
I have to problem with private institutions doing the same. I have a right to rent my property to whoever I please at any price I please without giving a reason or explanation. In my private business I have every right to hire whoever I please and again, same rules apply. If you take this right away from me, it is not my business anymore. And this is a direct violation of my constitutional rights.
In other words, I do support any kind of AA directed towards or against anyone you please, for any reason whatsoever. In your business you can hire black only, or homosexuals only, or whites only, whatever. It is your decision. But you have no right to tell me to do the same.
As soon as the government with its power comes in, we have a totally different situation. The problem is that thay have power to violate our constitutional rights and force us to do things or forbid us from doing them. It got to the point where they are controlling what we can or can not say. And this is absolutely unacceptable. Not because I don't like it, but because they have no right to do that.
I don't need any medicine, thank you. I did not harm anyone and I feel no guilt. I you do, please take all the medicine you want, but leave me out of it, thank you very much. I do not need to be "cured".
yes, and that is why we have eliminated racist laws. AA supporters on the other hand, want to keep the racist laws, just reverse the target.
Is it a private institution? See above (any reason whatsoever) ...
MT, please do not take it as a personal attack.
You have black sons. I do not know whether there are adopted or perhaps your wife is black, but if it is the latter, why would you call them black? They are as white as they are black.
Again, I do not know whether you have white sons or not, but if you had a white son, would you teach your sons differently?
"you Bob have to work and study hard, but you Jim do not worry. You get extra 500 points"
Of course you would not. They are both your sons, they have exactly same rights and priviledges, they both grew up in the same environment and you love them as much. The only difference is that they have a different skin color.
But this is waht government sponsored (or should I say extorted) AA is all about. Skin color is all that counts.
It is wrong, it is immoral and it is unconstitutional. Your perhaps noble goal of social equality, does not change any of that.
We, both government and the public have to stop treating people as members of groups, but treat them as individuals with all their faults and assets instead.
Treating people a groups, leads to special group priviledges or to discrimination.
I believe that group treatment contributed to racial discrimination greatly both in a past and now.
BTW, there is not such thing like "social equality". There is only a side effect of how the people live their lives independently from each other.
Just like many other things, economy for example. The economy is not "declared" bad or good. It is what it is. It is a net result of people living their lives and making their decisions independently.
Same with "social equality", you can't just declare it into being by your wishes and government's edicts.
Every time the government (or activist people via the government) was trying to fix, or even worse, plan and "design" the economy or society, it turned out into a disaster. Just a matter of time.
"Social equality" has been tried many times...
Very well thought out and well put.
I really dont think I could have said It any better Thank you.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Until a better program comes around, AA.
Any suggestions?
yes, treat people as individuals not as groups. Your traits like laziness or hard work ethic, your skills, intelligence, education, usefulness to the sociate etc. are your personal traits. They are not bestowed on you because of group membership.
And take the government out of it of course. The Constitution explicitly forbids them to muck with people's lives.
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If only that were enough.
AA has provided some of our greatest Black leaders with the assistance they needed to compete in the marketplace. Colin Powell & Justice Thomas to name just 2. Aren't we glad they were granted the opportunity to excell?
BTW, I will be meeting Justice Thomas in June. I promise to be nice, even though I hate his politics.
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you mean that they would've failed if it hasn't been for AA?
If yes, maybe hey do not deserve their position then.
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Say hello to Judge Thomas. What are the politics of his that you hate?
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Originally posted by mietla
you mean that they would've failed if it hasn't been for AA?
If yes, maybe hey do not deserve their position then.
BINGO we have a winner!
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Or maybe they are proof that AA is necessary. Do you question Colin Powell's ability to lead?
:rolleyes:
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After some of his Iraq testimony... yes.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Or maybe they are proof that AA is necessary. Do you question Colin Powell's ability to lead?
:rolleyes:
no, I don't feel qualified to judge that, either question him or praise him. This is not the point thought.
It is not a proof on anything. If he is qualified he needs no AA, if he is not qualified, he does not deserve the position.
The fact that my Secretary of Defense is black has no value to be me whatsoever.
Same with my doctor, my butcher an my gardner. I want the best doctor, best teacher, best janitor. Skin of their color soes not contribute at all.
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Originally posted by mietla
It is not a proof on anything. If he is qualified he needs no AA, if he is not qualified, he does not deserve the position.
You are missing the point. His qualifications for the job would NOT have gotten him the opportunity without AA. You have every right to seek out the most qualified doctor or lawyer or whatever... AA may have given one of those folks the chance to become the most qualified.
If you were a track coach (not the piano analogy).. and you had 2 guys running the 100 meters. One had all the advantages of prior coaching and good nutrition and a stable life. This guy runs the 100 in 10 flat and exhibits perfect form. The other was poor and raw and had terrible form because he was self taught. He runs a 10.1. Who would you pick for your team?
I'd pick the 10.1 guy. With coaching and assistance he will probably be much faster in the long run.
The same analogy can be made for SAT scores.
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I am not missing the point. I understand your argument precisely, I just do not buy it. When I hire someone, I'm not asking him about his childhood, I'm grilling him on Computer Science and ability to think.
If AA gave Powell an edge of any kind, it simply means that somewhere out there, there is a white candidate that would be better. If Powell was better on his merits, he would not need AA.
The difference between us is that you reward an effort, I reward the result. Piano or not, I just don't care. The fastest dude wins.
Good enough is not the same as the best.
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Nope... you missed it.
:D
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Just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean that you are misunderstood.
What have I missed?
Just what exactly AA did for Powell?
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subaru... I am tempted to say that you are a hypocrite that is to hypersensitive to be allowed to live amungst us humans...
"Then stop using "Jap" in your portrayals! You want to make the picture complete and start using "Kraut" for people and things German? How about "N*****" for black people? "Chink" for chinese people and things? "
I will and do use terms that you find offensive.. I foind nothing at all wrong with using "jap" or "kraut" in a friggin WWII sim.... In fact... I use the t6erms jap and kraut all today... I will say "jap car" or "kraut car" or Kraut gun or jap or I have even been known to say "commie gun" or "okie" I try to avoid working with or even being around people who take offense.
In the fifties those poor downtrodden japs were refered to as japs by us all the time.... "jap" is no worse in fact... way less worse than the terms the japs use for us..."Jap" is, after all, short for japanesse... what is it that you (japs) call us? what was that again? Hell... most of the adults didn't speak english and werent offended by the term jap (which was not meant by us to offend in any case) and we didn't understand japanesse so were not offended by their terms for us...
MT... it is ok to use the n word if you are one? what a bunch of crap... good for one good for all. PC and AA promote racism. If I see a black person that is a supervisor (or even a woman) I figure the job was given to them and they most likely are incompetent.... The White guy overcame AA so he probly knows what he is doing.
lazs
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It's not about how good they are now. It is about the opportunity to get good.
Justice Thomas has flat out said that without AA he would not have had the opportunity to attend the college of his choice. Does that make him less of a jurist? No.
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lots of very competent white people never got the opportunity to attend.... More now than before. Opportunity should be handed out to those with ability and those who work the hardest regardless of race or gender.
AA hurts everyone... if you allow the least competent amungst us to have the opportunities then you are hurting everyone.
How do you know that the brighter white guy that got passed over for the less capable black guy was not destined to find a cure for aids or... sycle cell for that matter?
lazs
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Originally posted by midnight Target
It's not about how good they are now. It is about the opportunity to get good.
No offense but this is just absurd. Of course it is. You want the job now, today, that minute. Potential is worthless until realized.
"You see Mr. Employer, I might suck right now, but give me an opportunity, and I will shine in a future".
Meantime someone who is shining aready is sent away. Of course for him it would be just down hill from now on.
Justice Thomas has flat out said that without AA he would not have had the opportunity to attend the college of his choice. Does that make him less of a jurist? No. [/B]
So , what if Thomas failed and never become a judge, some one else would take this place. Someone more qualified probably.
As I said, many people are qualified to do the job. I don't want to settle for good enough/qualified. I want the best. And the only way to determine that, is to remove all barrier and obstacles (pianos if you will), and let people shine on their merit.
For some reason you are saying that if Thomas didn't make the Supremes, the nation would be at a loss. Why? We still would have 9 Supremes.
And this from the guy who hates Thomas' politics :)
Again, Thomas' blackness does not contribute to the value of Supremes a lick.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
It's not about how good they are now. It is about the opportunity to get good.
Justice Thomas has flat out said that without AA he would not have had the opportunity to attend the college of his choice. Does that make him less of a jurist? No.
I can't even believe you typed that. Who gives a crap what their potential is? Like Mietla has said repeatedly, it's not what their potential is, it's what their value to the job is. The most qualified should get the job. If that wasn't Powell or Thomas at the time, then they didn't deserve their positions.
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exactly.... Certainly we know that there are black people capable of great things... There are also white people capable... How do we know that the white guy that thomas displaced would not have been the second coming? Or, at the very least... A more competent judge?
Is it not better for everyone if we have the best people given the opportunities to help us all?
The best doctors and scientiists and judges and generals and not necessarily the most ethnicly diverse?
Should we force sports to accept more whites or put more blacks on the swimming teams?
denying the people with the most ability is unjust.
lazs
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Colin Powell got to where he Is by being a good soldier.
There Is NO AA in the Army I assure you.
Everybody has the chance to move up based on there performance.
Atleast when I was in.
He Is where he Is now because he Is one very smart man who used his brains to his advantage.
Now AA might of helped him get into a better college or something but It did not help him in his military career.
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Originally posted by lazs2
subaru... I am tempted to say that you are a hypocrite that is to hypersensitive to be allowed to live amungst us humans...LOL, and you're not being sensitive because of a simple request to watch our language here out of respect of those here (and in the future) that might be offended? LOL, you whine about PC and AA being racist? So you want to still be able to refer to those different than you by racial epithets? Before you start throwing the "hypocrite" label, look in the mirror.
"Then stop using "Jap" in your portrayals! You want to make the picture complete and start using "Kraut" for people and things German? How about "N*****" for black people? "Chink" for chinese people and things? "
I will and do use terms that you find offensive.. I foind nothing at all wrong with using "jap" or "kraut" in a friggin WWII sim.... In fact... I use the t6erms jap and kraut all today... I will say "jap car" or "kraut car" or Kraut gun or jap or I have even been known to say "commie gun" or "okie" I try to avoid working with or even being around people who take offense.
My, how we hold on to excuses of using racial epithets because it used to be accepted. You didn't start using them because of this sim, by your own admission. It may be a WWII sim, but it is being played and enjoyed by a multicultural , worldwide audience where racial epithets are considered insulting and degrading. Gee, by all means continue in your crusade to be able to "rightously" use your labels, good way to help make a business grow! BTW, Skuzzy has warned that he doesn't take lightly being referred to as a "Kraut" (perfectly understandable, IMHO). Is he being oversensitive too? Racial epithets were used widely back in the WWII era . We are not in that era. Because you think it right does not make it so.
In the fifties those poor downtrodden japs were refered to as japs by us all the time.... "jap" is no worse in fact... way less worse than the terms the japs use for us..."Jap" is, after all, short for japanesse... what is it that you (japs) call us? what was that again? Hell... most of the adults didn't speak english and werent offended by the term jap (which was not meant by us to offend in any case) and we didn't understand japanesse so were not offended by their terms for us...
LOL, and this example is supposed to be a valid argument for using racial epithets?
MT... it is ok to use the n word if you are one? what a bunch of crap... good for one good for all. PC and AA promote racism. If I see a black person that is a supervisor (or even a woman) I figure the job was given to them and they most likely are incompetent.... The White guy overcame AA so he probly knows what he is doing.
lazs
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It is apparent that we are entrenched in our views. To continue to discuss this "AA" further serves no purpose. We all feel we know we're right and any further discussion won't change it. This thread started with the following (cropped to the essentials):
Originally posted by SaburoS
I have questions for those of you that feel a need to use racial epithets to get a point across:
1) Why?
2) Is this the sort of attitude and language you'd like to see our youth learn and mimic?
3) What on earth is wrong in being politically correct? You'd think it'd be a criminal act to see some responses!
I'm going to ask to please stop referring to other nationalities in such a derogatory way. It's unbecoming of civilized folk to talk/type that way.
Thank you.
I'm posting it again to get us back on track. I have no power over you to force you into anything, just a humble request. If you agree that racial epithets have no place here on this BBS, then thank you. If you believe that racial epithets are perfectly acceptable then by all means contiune on the way you have.
I thank you in any case for at least considering about it no matter the results. BTW, this is not a request of how one talks away from this game. Everyone feels they are right as do I. Seems nothing is going to change our minds.
Regards.
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I see no point in calling ethnic groups names.
The correct term Is Japanese.
That as far as im concerned is not asking to much.
As a Jewish American I can relate.
Kike or jewboy or hooknose jew would be offensive to me.
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Ok, let's try again.
Originally posted by SaburoS
I have questions for those of you that feel a need to use racial epithets to get a point across:
1) Why?
2) Is this the sort of attitude and language you'd like to see our youth learn and mimic?
3) What on earth is wrong in being politically correct? You'd think it'd be a criminal act to see some responses!
I do not really feel the need to do that, so I'm not sure I'm "qualified to respond", but since I'm in this thread toenails deep, I'll answer anyway, FWIW....
1. I choose not to do it. I feel no need for it, and if this was your definition of PC, I'd be on your side. But, ... the minute you tell me I can't do it, I'll switch sides.
Politeness = voluntary civility
PC = an attempt to use the power of the state to impose your views on others.
2. A resounding... Of course not.
3. Everything. In a nutshell...
Politeness is a voluntary action.
Say, you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as Bob, I'd prefer Robert, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.
Say, you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as Robert, I'd prefer Mr. XXX, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.
Say, you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as Mr. XXX, I'd prefer Maestro, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.
See, everything is between us, you ask politely, I'll find a courtesy in me to oblige.
But... the minute you drag the government in it, and your decry...
"All XXX poeple have to be addressed as YYY" my middle finger suddenly stiffens.
Politeness is a voluntary and conditional surrender of someone's rights made in order to make interaction between people (potential lifetime friends) easier and more enjoyable foe all.
PC is a totalitarian concept. It is an attempt to intimidate (like in, fine, prison, loss of property, mafia style "insurance") free people, into hiding their real thoughts, and present the "government preferred" face instead. Never, ever I'll suport that.
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Originally posted by mietla
Ok, let's try again.
I do not really feel the need to do that, so I'm not sure I'm "qualified to respond", but since I'm in this thread toenails deep, I'll answer anyway, FWIW....
1. I choose not to do it. I feel no need for it, and if this was your definition of PC, I'd be on your side. But, ... the minute you tell me I can't do it, I'll switch sides.
Politeness = voluntary civility
PC = an attempt to use the power of the state to impose your views on others.
2. A resounding... Of course not.
3. Everything. In a nutshell...
Politeness is a voluntary action.
Say, you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as Bob, I'd prefer Robert, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.
Say, you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as Robert, I'd prefer Mr. XXX, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.
Say, you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as Mr. XXX, I'd prefer Maestro, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.
See, everything is between us, you ask politely, I'll find a courtesy in me to oblige.
But... the minute you drag the government in it, and your decry...
"All XXX poeple have to be addressed as YYY" my middle finger suddenly stiffens.
Politeness is a voluntary and conditional surrender of someone's rights made in order to make interaction between people (potential lifetime friends) easier and more enjoyable foe all.
PC is a totalitarian concept. It is an attempt to intimidate (like in, fine, prison, loss of property, mafia style "insurance") free people, into hiding their real thoughts, and present the "government preferred" face instead. Never, ever I'll suport that.
PC Is Bullchit.
But treating someone like a human being should come natural.
A dammed shame it dont though.
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Originally posted by bullett308
I see no point in calling ethnic groups names.
The correct term Is Japanese.
That as far as im concerned is not asking to much.
As a Jewish American I can relate.
Kike or jewboy or hooknose jew would be offensive to me.
Thank you. I agree with you 100%.
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Originally posted by mietla
Ok, let's try again.
I do not really feel the need to do that, so I'm not sure I'm "qualified to respond", but since I'm in this thread toenails deep, I'll answer anyway, FWIW....Thank you for your level-headed response and keeping this discussion above-board.
1. I choose not to do it. I feel no need for it, and if this was your definition of PC, I'd be on your side. Just so we're clear here, that is my definition I believe in. That is the reason I asked and not demand (not that i'd have any power to do so. I still believe in freedom of speech even if it is offensive.) I don't wish that certain words or phrases be wiped out of the English language. Just questioning why the need to use racial epithets in a public forum (I know it's privately own, but it is open to the public.). Notice in all my posts do I say that it be law that no one say certain words. I don't/didn't. Instead the thread got into a semantics discussion on what was/wasn't pc, and whether AA constituted racism or not. This is a far cry from a civil request that I asked out of respect and politeness that we refrain from certain language. I did not demand.
But, ... the minute you tell me I can't do it, I'll switch sides. Nope, not my BBS, not my place to tell you or anyone that they MUST do anything.
Politeness = voluntary civilityI still beleive by definition as I see it, that by acting "PC", one is respecting others, by both speech and actions. To use force via totalianarism to be "PC" would in fact not be "PC", again, my definition as I interpret it.
PC = an attempt to use the power of the state to impose your views on others.
2. A resounding... Of course not.
3. Everything. In a nutshell...By your definition, I'll agree with you here. I think what we have is a difference of our beliefs of the definition of "PC". In a nutshell, I agree with your ideas in this post. My only disagreement is on the definition of "PC". What you describe as "PC" in your actions, I consider very un"PC"
Politeness is a voluntary action.
Say, you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as Bob, I'd prefer Robert, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.
Say, you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as Robert, I'd prefer Mr. XXX, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.
Say, you ask me, can you please refrain from addressing me as Mr. XXX, I'd prefer Maestro, instead. I'd be happy to oblige.
See, everything is between us, you ask politely, I'll find a courtesy in me to oblige.
I agree. I asked politely of those that wished to use degrading, racial epithets.....from the beginning.
But... the minute you drag the government in it, and your decry...
"All XXX poeple have to be addressed as YYY" my middle finger suddenly stiffens.
Politeness is a voluntary and conditional surrender of someone's rights made in order to make interaction between people (potential lifetime friends) easier and more enjoyable foe all.
I agree. :)
PC is a totalitarian concept. This is where "PC" becomes un-"PC"
It is an attempt to intimidate (like in, fine, prison, loss of property, mafia style "insurance") free people, into hiding their real thoughts, and present the "government preferred" face instead. Never, ever I'll suport that.
Thanks for your response :)
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Originally posted by bullett308
PC Is Bullchit. As mietla described his version of a "totalitarian PC", I agree. As I understand "PC" to be, I'll disagree.
But treating someone like a human being should come natural.
A dammed shame it dont though. Agreed 100%!!! I believe hate and prejudice is learned though, although I'm not an expert.
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in my teen years, being called a whop may have bothered me (never happened)
in my mid 40's, someone call me a whop, I'd cross the street and try to ignore him as I'd know I was dealing with a less than stable nutbag
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none of the terms for white people bother me.. intent bothers me. I will not ban words because they may possibly offend a portion of one race or gender or creed.
I will continue to use the word jap when I wish.
And that's what it is all about isn't it... on half japanesse player searching for his "roots"...
I make no justification for anything I say unless asked for it and then... only if I wish to give a justification.
I reserve the right to say any word that is appropriate to the situation... I consider myself a polite person. I consider a lot of people hypersensitive and because of their hypersensitivity they are adding to the problem.
PC seeks to ban words... bottom line... are you for banning words? the books they may be in? How bout music or movies?
To me, jap is short for japanesse. I will not be around a person who is offended if I say "jap car".
subaru... you never anwswered my question tho... do you know the terms the japanesse use for white people and what it means?
lazs
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Originally posted by Eagler
in my teen years, being called a whop may have bothered me (never happened)
in my mid 40's, someone call me a whop, I'd cross the street and try to ignore him as I'd know I was dealing with a less than stable nutbag
OMG! Not only do I look like your younger better looking brother... we are both wh...... er Italian!?
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Now AA might of helped him get into a better college or something but It did not help him in his military career.
Exactly what I'm talking about. It's all about opportunity. EVERYONE should have it. Then they can be judged upon their merits.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
OMG! Not only do I look like your younger better looking brother... we are both wh...... er Italian!?
I never pictured you as an Itialian MT..
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OK, mostly Italian. 3/4.
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MT..."everyone" should have opportunity... but...
If opportunities are limited by funds or whatever... then, the people who can make the most use of them... the people with the most ability should be given the opportunities first.. regardless of race of gender or whatever..
And yes... I realize that according to the "bell curve", many asians and jews will get more opportunity than us honkies. I don't want to be operated on by some afirmative action white guy any more than I do any affirmative action loser.
lazs
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But what if opportunity is limited by racial bigotry?
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How so? I am, not for limiting opportunity based on race. I am for testing of students even tho that has fallen out of favor. I think we should seek out the brilliant no matter what race or gender.
We should not have quotas based on race tho that simply take the worthless or near worthless and waste opportunity on them.
lazs
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How so?
Comon lazs. Are you suggesting that all prejudice has been eliminated? That all of the affects of the past have been removed? That everyone in todays world gets an equal shot?
hehe.
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prejudice will never be completely eliminated. that has nothing to do with it. you cannot mandate that people like each other. spike haired nose ring white people get more prejudiced treatment than blacks say... so what?
put em all to the test... I don't care who wins but you need to seperate out the gifted if you have limited resourses for opportunity. to do otherwise is to cheat everyone.
lazs
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if think there should be reverse AA in the NBA
we need more short white guys in there to even out all the tall black ones :)
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But what if opportunity is limited by racial bigotry?
Is already is for some white people: AA.
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I think the reason why we have race discrimination laws is not to force people not to use terms like 'jap' or whatever. It is to ensure that a person is not treated less favourably because of his racial background. And it should work both ways, if a white person is treated less favourably than a black, yellow or brown person, he should have the right to redress. Any other view is just hypocricy.
These laws have worked. Just see where we are now, in terms of racial tolerance in our countries compared to say, 20 or 40 years ago. Of course there is always a danger that the laws will be used as a sword instead of a shield (for which they were intended)
I think AA is going too far. People should be hired on their merits, not because of the colour of their skins or their beliefs. Race discrimination laws address that whilst keeping a level playing field.
I use the term 'jap', and my japanese friends don't mind. Perhaps this is a difference between US and Europe; but over here, most of the ones I've met don't see any malice behind the term, and that is where I think Lasz is right. It's about whether there is malice behind what is said that makes it hurtful. Of course if someone I knew did find it hurtful, I would stop using it in their presence: why make a scene over a word?
Although I am brown in colour, but speak in English received pronunciation, my friends in university would tell 'paki' jokes but consider me 'English' and assume I would not take offence. And I wouldn't take offence, because I knew the people, and the jokes wern't meant maliciously. They may as well have been telling jokes about people with big noses or disturbed teeth.
You cannot make broad rules for this subject. You have to be aware of the audience you are adressing and, to be polite, ensure that you don't offend. If it's a wide audience (like this BBS) where you don't know who might be listening, you ought to be a little cautious. If you are having a few beers with your mates in your living room, then you can be less cautious.
It's not rocket science.
Ravs
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Originally posted by lazs2
none of the terms for white people bother me.. intent bothers me. I will not ban words because they may possibly offend a portion of one race or gender or creed.
I will continue to use the word jap when I wish.
And that's what it is all about isn't it... on half japanesse player searching for his "roots"... Not searching for anything....keep your searching for excuses to justify racial epithets.
I make no justification for anything I say unless asked for it and then... only if I wish to give a justification.
I reserve the right to say any word that is appropriate to the situation... I consider myself a polite person. I consider a lot of people hypersensitive and because of their hypersensitivity they are adding to the problem.You know, for someone that talks a lot about hypersensitive people, you sure get all hypersensitive in your excuses to keep using certain words. Most would be adult about it and figure that somehow some here are insulted by certain language being typed here in public and out of respect will try to refrain from using it. Hint: J-P-N are closer together on the keyboard rather than J-A-P. Do you call German people and things "GERMS"? Hey, it's shorter. Funny that you have no problem typing out German, American, but Japanese? "Oh no! that's too long for me to type!! Boo-hoo!!" Spare me your so-called "reasons" for using certain derogatory labels. I see we're halfway there, you won't type n*****, even though you'll say it in person. Type what you want, just quit with the lame excuses. It was a respectful request by me nothing more. You have every right to keep typing however the heck you please. I'm not the pc police.
PC seeks to ban words... bottom line... are you for banning words? the books they may be in? How bout music or movies?
To me, jap is short for japanesse. I will not be around a person who is offended if I say "jap car".
subaru... you never anwswered my question tho... do you know the terms the japanesse use for white people and what it means?I don't speak Japanese nor have I ever used derogatory labels dealing with people. I don't know what they are. This is another attempt to justify your using racial epithets here in public against some that find it offensive? Keep deluding yourself that certain racial epithets are acceptable. Is that clear enough for you now?
lazs
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Saburo...do you find the word Jap offensive because you think there's a sense of malice behind it?
Ravs
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Three Star General Benjamin O. Davis, Jr seemed to succeed above and beyond without any AA.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Three Star General Benjamin O. Davis, Jr seemed to succeed above and beyond without any AA.
-SW
So you guys would have excluded the Tuskegee Airmen from your "club of the finest". I mean if they weren't an example of AA then what is?
And how many contemporary Generals did Davis have who were also Black? Silly SW.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So you guys would have excluded the Tuskegee Airmen from your "club of the finest". I mean if they weren't an example of AA then what is?
They were the finest because they were good at what they did. They were held to the same (actually higher) standard as any other pilot.
I don't see how AA applies to the Tuskegee Airmen... they became pilots by being equal to other pilots, not by being inferior -- but black -- pilots.
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They didn't get any preferential treatment, they are not an example of AA at all. They were excellent across the board, and got there under their own volition.
I've seen slots filled by less-than-competent people that didn't even have degrees in the field - they had useless degrees - but that was to fill a quota. Thanks to AA.
AA may have been needed in the past, but not anymore. Where I grew up and lived, and who I played with on the playground was a far cry from any segregation or discrimination any of you older folks faced. Keeping AA around will do more damage for the upcomming generations than it will to help anything.
-SW
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Originally posted by ravells
Saburo...do you find the word Jap offensive because you think there's a sense of malice behind it?
Ravs
Ravs,
The history of its usage was born out of malice. Everytime it's used, it reminds some of us of a time not pleasant to be a minority. Does that mean that some here using it today have malice when they use it? No. but maybe that shouldn't be the question. Shouldn't it be that those victims of certain labels should be reminded, by those very labels of a time very unpleasant? I hate all labels and feel they do not belong here in a public forum. I don't like labels were borne in a period to label those minorities that were supposed to be less of a human being than whites.
I'll give you this example:
A non-Jewish teenager not knowing of the Holocaust goes to his nearest neighborhood synagog and puts up a poster of a swastika on the front door. Is that okay? I mean the swastika also is a native Indian religious symbol? I mean his intent wasn't to hurt others. He didn't know better. Was it okay for the Jewish Patrons to be upset by that symbol, or are they just being "sensitive"? I mean the kid isn't killing any Jewish people, right?
Certain symbols/labels are just potentially too powerfully hateful despite they just being "words" or "pictures." Real people have been killed, their property taken, etc. because of the actions behind those labels/symbols. Harmless? Not to those that were victims.
People will do whatever they do for whatever reason. What they do in the privacy of their home doesn't bother me.
Edit...added:
Main Entry: Jap
Pronunciation: 'jap
Function: noun or adjective
usually disparaging
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You guys obviously don't understand AA.
Sure, the Tuskegee Airmen excelled at their craft. But it took a QUOTA to even give them the chance. They wouldn't have been recruited for their training without the implementation of a law requiring a black air wing.
It's all about opportunity to excel, not compromising the measure of excellence.
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You obviously don't understand what equal means. Equal means giving EVERYONE a fair shot to excel. Mandating an advantage for certain groups of people is not equal.
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You've obviously not been in the federal government where filling the quota doesn't mean with quality.
AA is a far cry from an experiment, which is exactly what the Tuskegee Airmen were. AA was designed to level the playing field in the past, today the only place its needed is some hick town in the middle of the country.
-SW
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Saburu, the history may have been born out of malice (although I seriously think that it was just an abbreviation which represented a people that the US hated at the time...much worse words could have been chosen).
I am looking at it linguistically. Words have a taboo power only if they are rarely used. The word F**k has almost lost that power because it is used far more commonly today than in the past.
Your example doesn't stand up to examination. The Nazis used a reverse swastika, (although most people would probably not know the difference these days), but the point is that in your example, a young jewish man WOULD know the significance of the symbol and the effect it would have by posting it up on a synagogue.
The question I'm asking is whether the word 'Jap' is one of those words/symbols. It may be disparaging in the US, but in the UK I think not so much (although polite people here would never say that word to a japanese person unless we knew he or she would not take offense).
In my family in England, we would talk about going to the 'chinky' to pick up a chinese meal, or going to the 'paki shop' to get some ciggarettes, using the word more as a shorthand than anything derogatory.
On the subject of AA, I think that both mt and Wulfie have hit the nail on the head in both of their posts. The disadvantage that minorties suffer is not even being given the chance. In the case of the US, it was really the second world war that gave blacks the respect they deserved (and even after that they had to fight for equal recognition). AA is important when the playing field is so skewed that minorities don't even get a look in, because, as Lasz said, 'if they came to me for a job, I would be nice to them, but I would put a line through their name.' So the only way to right the balance is not to have the Lasz's of the world have the choice. And over time, when people don't have the choice but to hire minorties, their views change. Which is what has happened in the US since the 60s.
But Wulfe is also right. I think that now the playing field is more or less balanced and the risks of minorities using the 'race card' to get an unfair advantage is (in my experience) reasonably high. And if the playing field is reasonably level and Lasz wants to put a line through someone's name because he happens to be black, then fine, there ought to be enough jobs that black person can go and find someone else and Lasz can live the life he chooses by isolating himself from people he feels he does not relate to.
It's all a question of balance, and depth of choice.
My belief is that the US should get away from AA and just have race discrimination laws that apply to everybody....so (as I have seen so often cited here as an example) if a white person wants to enter a 'Ms Black America' contest, then by all means let her. And if they don't let her join, then the organisers ought to be answerable for being discriminatory.
I originally come from a country (Malaysia) where AA has been ruinious. Malaysia has three ethnic populations: Chinese, Malays and Indians. Traditionally the Malays have been rural and very poor, the Chinese economically successful and urban and the Indians mostly poor but with some in the professional classes.
AA was brought in (after race riots in 1969) to help the Malays. This meant that a Malay passes an exam at 45% whereas an Indian or Chinese passes the same exam at 55%. All companies in Malaysia MUST have at least a 30% shareholding of Malays. Malay students get all expenses paid scholarships (on the taxpayer's money) to places like Australia, the US and England.
The result? The Malays expect life to be handed to them on a plate, some work hard but not most. If the government ever even makes an indication that it's going to change its policy on this, they will be voted out of office. This is not a good way to carry on.
Ravs
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AA is racism. Who can come here and argue that it is not?
Since we all agree AA is racist, I guess the people that support AA agree with racism, as long as it's "good" racism.
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AA *is* racism. But in extreme cases you have to use racism to combat racism.
Just as you have to take away some civil liberties to protect the greater civil liberties when you are under an imminent terrorist threat.
Or.. as Gene Hackman said in 'Crimson Tide', "I'm not here to practice democracy, I'm here to protect it"
It's one of those paradoxes of human life.
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
AA *is* racism. But in extreme cases you have to use racism to combat racism.
Just as you have to take away some civil liberties to protect the greater civil liberties when you are under an imminent terrorist threat.
Or.. as Gene Hackman said in 'Crimson Tide', "I'm not here to practice democracy, I'm here to protect it"
It's one of those paradoxes of human life.
Ravs
Then make everything AA, like sports. Require every enterprise to hire a percentage of races based on population and not qualifications.
Brain surgeons? Just make sure you get a nice racial mix, nothing else should matter. Make passing grades for medical school vary by race, not correct answers on tests.
And, I have not lost any civil liberties due to terrorist threats.
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You've lost some liberties you otherwise had through the Patriot Act. (See a previous thread on the subject), and I think in this political climate, quite right. I have no complaints about it, as do you.
As I said, it's all about balance and a depth of choice. I think that AA has gone too far in the States, but there was a time when it was required, IMO.
Your Brain Surgeon point made me chuckle. Reminded me of an episode of MASH when Hawkeye convinced a deep south guy that his life had been saved by a black man who gave him his blood.
We shouldn't be so stupid that we can't give people who are so obviously disadvantaged a head start in order to improve their lives. Otherwise we just build them into an underclass and a future problem.
Ravs
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Great, just great, 240 posts on political correctness, and only 10 on the NFL draft. What kind of horrid place is this!!
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Suffer, baby :)
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Originally posted by ravells
We shouldn't be so stupid that we can't give people who are so obviously disadvantaged a head start in order to improve their lives.
"Give."
You can give anyone you want anything you want. If you think that a particular person has had a rough go of things, based on their race or whatever, you are free to invest in their unfulfilled potential. But when you legislate that I have to, or that society has to, it's not being given, its being coerced.
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Sure, it's being coerced.
In the sixties, in America, when they legislated that segragation had to stop, that brave black girl refused to sit in the 'blacks only' part of the bus. So who was being coerced there?
As I said, there are times when AA is necesarry. But I think that (from the little that I know compared to you lot) in America today, it's past its sell by date and you ought to have race discrimination laws which punish people for race discrimination, regardless of their colour and just ditch the AA thing.
I suspect the reason why it hasn't been ditched is that black voters are seen as 'swing' voters (although I understand they traditionally vote democrat)
Ravs
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" If your car is over 25 years old and has over 800,000 miles, press 4-7"
47
"oh, hello Al Bundy"
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The same word has differant meanings/conotations in differant places.
I've been labeled a racist salamander many a time for using the word Jap. on the net ( note period Sab ;) )
Fair enough, maybe it is used as an insult in the US, I dont know, but here in Australia, it is an abbreviation of the word Japanese.
Americans root their favourite football or baseball team right? You could walk into a football team's dressing room and ask if it was OK for you to root them, and they'd be cool with that right?
Try that down here. I dare ya ;) They might be all for it if you are real unlucky. If you are lucky, they'll just kill you.
Point is, we both speak 'English', we use many of the same words, but they sometimes have vastly differant meanings, usages and histories.
Should I change the way I speak because some of the words my be insulting in some other country? Maybe, but the Yanks better cut it out with all that rooting....it's just....shocking.
There's a (German I think) company that makes ovens and stovetops and stuff called Smeg, cripes!! how revolting is that?!! They had better damn well change that word NOW! It's pretty offensive stuff down here.
The whole thing is just jumping at shadows IMHO, taking offence where none is offered.
Lighten up, accept that we are all very differant people/s, with differant customs , yet in a great many ways we're all alike. Remember the old sticks and stones thing and get on with experiencing other people's views on stuff, instead of getting all shirty because you think that someone is trying to offend you when in fact they are not.
Think of it another way, if in fact they ARE trying to insult you, and you take no notice whatsoever of the insult, havent you just completely defeated their efforts and made the insult worthless anyway?
Just my 2c, apparently a lot of you guys disagree....doesnt offend me one little bit :)
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Originally posted by ravells
... you ought to have race discrimination laws which punish people for race discrimination
This is simply unconstitutional (not to mention absurd). I have a constitutional right to be racist (or sexist or whatever). I may choose not to exercise my rights, but this is my decision, not yours.
You mean you would send a race police into people's houses to make sure that their dinner party is racially balanced?
Government can't discriminate, you and I can.
You can't trample people's liberties just because you want to social engineer society to your liking. No matter how noble your goal is. You can persuade or ask, but you can't coerce.
No one has a right to "shape" the society. The society shapes itself.
So, all you Ramses, Alexander, Tiberius, Claudius, Napoleon, Stalin , Pol Pot (stick your favorite name in here) types, go fly a kite.
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Originally posted by ravells
Saburu, the history may have been born out of malice (although I seriously think that it was just an abbreviation which represented a people that the US hated at the time...much worse words could have been chosen).
But they weren't. "Jap" and "Nip" were the chosen labels used commonly in a derogatory way during a hateful time during our history. It was the the deeds done, not the words that make the labels damaging.
I am looking at it linguistically. Words have a taboo power only if they are rarely used. The word F**k has almost lost that power because it is used far more commonly today than in the past. By that logic, we should be using racially derogatory labels and swear words more often, all to make it lose the taboo power? Sorry, I don't buy that explaination. I don't know any parent personally that would think "F**K" coming out of their 8 y.o. child to be anything but unacceptable. "F**K" is still not acceptable business language in a majority of situations.
Your example doesn't stand up to examination. The Nazis used a reverse swastika, (although most people would probably not know the difference these days), but the point is that in your example, a young jewish man WOULD know the significance of the symbol and the effect it would have by posting it up on a synagogue.
Sorry, but your answer to my sample doesn't hold up. Re-read it. Take it in its full context as I intended. Sorry, the Nazi's used a version of the Swastika that was most prevailent in history. The Swastika used to be a meaning for peace along with other positive meanings. It was the Nazi ideology that turned the Swastika's meaning on its ear. Oh, there were Swastikas in history (before the Nazi's used them) that used a counterclockwise bend, but most samples found show them to be in the clockwise bend. Most people don't know that difference. Also, noticed I used the term "non-Jewish teenager" in my sample. Most teenagers just don't know about the Holocaust and Hitler's "Final Solution". We can disect and argue the points in my made up sample further if you wish, but we're splitting hairs if we do.
The question I'm asking is whether the word 'Jap' is one of those words/symbols.
It isn't to the extent of say "N****r" as a lot worse has been done to Blacks, for a lot longer period. With 10 being the worst, I hold "N****r" as a 10, "Jap","Nip", "Chink", "Raghead", "Wetback", and "Kike" as an 8. To keep this brief, I'll stop my samples here as I could go on, long list.These are all labels that are representations of a very real victimization of various minority groups here in my country. Not for what they did, but only because they looked, sounded different via dress, customs, speech, skin color, culture. A minority calling me a racial epithet (yes, I've been called "Honky" "Cracker" and "N****r" by minorities. Those labels by them don't bother me as much as they don't represent a group that could keep me down via housing, jobs, schooling, etc.
It may be disparaging in the US,
I am speaking only of my country as since I'm an American, I'd comment on an unfortunate time in American History.
but in the UK I think not so much (although polite people here would never say that word to a japanese person unless we knew he or she would not take offense).
So by admission, polite people in your country don't use that term initially with a Japanese person present. How do you determine if "Jap" is an offensive word to that Japanese person? Do you ask them: "Excuse me kind sir, do you mind if I use Jap in describing Japanese things or people? I mean actually saying Japanese is rather a long word and we'd rather not be bothered so." Or: You wait until that Japanese person starts saying "Jap" in his descriptions?
In my family in England, we would talk about going to the 'chinky' to pick up a chinese meal, or going to the 'paki shop' to get some ciggarettes, using the word more as a shorthand than anything derogatory.
On the subject of AA, I think that both mt and Wulfie have hit the nail on the head in both of their posts. The disadvantage that minorties suffer is not even being given the chance. In the case of the US, it was really the second world war that gave blacks the respect they deserved (and even after that they had to fight for equal recognition). AA is important when the playing field is so skewed that minorities don't even get a look in, because, as Lasz said, 'if they came to me for a job, I would be nice to them, but I would put a line through their name.' So the only way to right the balance is not to have the Lasz's of the world have the choice. And over time, when people don't have the choice but to hire minorties, their views change. Which is what has happened in the US since the 60s.
But Wulfe is also right. I think that now the playing field is more or less balanced and the risks of minorities using the 'race card' to get an unfair advantage is (in my experience) reasonably high. And if the playing field is reasonably level and Lasz wants to put a line through someone's name because he happens to be black, then fine, there ought to be enough jobs that black person can go and find someone else and Lasz can live the life he chooses by isolating himself from people he feels he does not relate to.
It's all a question of balance, and depth of choice.
My belief is that the US should get away from AA and just have race discrimination laws that apply to everybody....so (as I have seen so often cited here as an example) if a white person wants to enter a 'Ms Black America' contest, then by all means let her. And if they don't let her join, then the organisers ought to be answerable for being discriminatory.
I originally come from a country (Malaysia) where AA has been ruinious. Malaysia has three ethnic populations: Chinese, Malays and Indians. Traditionally the Malays have been rural and very poor, the Chinese economically successful and urban and the Indians mostly poor but with some in the professional classes.
AA was brought in (after race riots in 1969) to help the Malays. This meant that a Malay passes an exam at 45% whereas an Indian or Chinese passes the same exam at 55%. All companies in Malaysia MUST have at least a 30% shareholding of Malays. Malay students get all expenses paid scholarships (on the taxpayer's money) to places like Australia, the US and England.
The result? The Malays expect life to be handed to them on a plate, some work hard but not most. If the government ever even makes an indication that it's going to change its policy on this, they will be voted out of office. This is not a good way to carry on.
Ravs
I'll close with this as I don't have the time to answer everyone's posts that use the same reasoning for excuses:
Look at the banner flying in this BBS. It says "Brits against the Japanese." It does not say "Brits against the Japs." It does not say "The British against the Japanese."
Why is that? It because as I've tried to explain in this thread. "Brits", "Yanks", "Aussie" (some samples) have not been used in a derogatory way nor have those same people been persecuted by my country's populous.
the Swastika has been used positively for centuries before the Nazi's turned it into an evil symbol. Should Hitech allow it on it's planes in AH2? Should Germany and other European nations not have it outlawed? I mean, by some explainations, one would think that we should have swear words, Racial epithets, Swastikas posted on everything and everywhere. After all let's help those evil, bad things lose their bite and evil meaning! Let's start teaching our youth to say these things!
Sorry, but I don't buy that argument. It usually takes being a victim to understand my position. If you wish to continue to use your labels despite knowing they could be offensive to some, you go right ahead. I'm not the pc police.
I've had my say in this matter and explained it the best I can. I apologize to those that don't understand. Keep in mind that this is a business and it gets better by expanding and increasing its player base. If you want to make it uncomfortable so our Arab and islamic players in this community to leave, keep using the term "Raghead" (trust me, those that play this game are not terrorists willing to bring down Western civilization.). For those that wish the players of Japanese dissent to not enjoy the experience of AH, please continue to use "Jap" or "Nip". People don't play a game just so they can be reminded of hateful things (whether intentional or not). Please remember that the next time you feel a need to use ant hateful language.
That is all I'm going to say on the matter. Any more and we'll be going around in circles. Thank you all for your time, and best regards.
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Originally posted by mietla
I have a constitutional right to be racist
:rofl Talk about interpretation. That made my day, i'm gonna have to use that one.:aok
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subaro said... "You know, for someone that talks a lot about hypersensitive people, you sure get all hypersensitive in your excuses to keep using certain words. Most would be adult about it and figure that somehow some here are insulted by certain language being typed here in public and out of respect will try to refrain from using it. Hint: J-P-N are closer together on the keyboard rather than J-A-P. Do you call German people and things "GERMS"? Hey, it's shorter. Funny that you have no problem typing out German, American, but Japanese? "Oh no! that's too long for me to type!! Boo-hoo!!" Spare me your so-called "reasons" for using certain derogatory labels. I see we're halfway there, you won't type n*****, even though you'll say it in person. Type what you want, just quit with the lame excuses. It was a respectful request by me nothing more. You have every right to keep typing however the heck you please. I'm not the pc police. "
Now that is funny... I am not the one who got on here and was so sensitive that I hid my motives behind a PC thread.. your whole point to the thread was to make people stop using the word jap. It is pitiful... I would imagine that you are one of the few japannese that is offended in the world... your replies range from pleading and whining to obscene vehemence.. you are coming unglued over this... most of the words you tell me I don't type can't be typed on this board... as for "germ" hey... the term get's used a lot here.
I will continue to type what I want within the boundries of this BB... in fact... I might type "jap" a lot more since I know it irritates someone as pissy as you... you may type honky or okie or whitey or whatever. Maybe there will be some half white guy who get's all worked up. I make not justifications for what I say. I use words to express what I mean... It doesn't matter if I am doing it badly or not getting my point accross... only that I have the freedom to express myself.
MT.. the tuskagee airmen should not have been discriminated against nor should any black men... I believe most discrimination was unconstitutional. They should have had the SAME rights to test for jobs as anyone else.
lazs
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Originally posted by Sixpence
:rofl Talk about interpretation.
Interpretation? of what ? elaborate please.
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Originally posted by mietla
Interpretation? of what ? elaborate please.
Lol, you tell me where the constitution tells you you have a right to be racist, then I will elaborate.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Lol, you tell me where the constitution tells you you have a right to be racist, then I will elaborate.
Constitution binds the government, not me.
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Originally posted by mietla
Constitution binds the government, not me.
So that is the constitution saying you have a right to be racist? Yeah, I would call that an interpretation.
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No, it says that I can say (and therefore think) whatever I please. The Constitution does not grant me this right, it just affirms that I have this right, and it forbids the government from encroaching on it.
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Originally posted by mietla
No, it says that I can say (and therefore think) whatever I please. The Constitution does not grant me this right, it just affirms that I have this right, and it forbids the government from encroaching on it.
It does not say you have a right to be racist. You interpret what it says as a right to be racist.
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Of course, I does not SAY it. It does not say that I can eat chicken, watch TV and fart if I feel like it either.
You completely misunderstand the concept of the Constitution. It is not a list of things the People are allowed to do. Quite the oposite. It is a document written by citizens creating a new government who are afraid that their very creation may get out of control. They wrote the Constitution to restrict the government, to make sure that Peopl's liberties are protected against "good intent" government activism.
The Bill of Rights simply affirms the "obvious and self-evident". As a matter of fact there was a strong opposition to it, not because the opponets did not want to protect basic prople's right, but because they were afraid that the very fact that you list the "obvious and self-evidend", may be construed as an opening to a discusion of what really is obvious and self-evident. Just like you doing right now.
Again, the Constitution restrict the government's actions, not the People's. Read it and find something that restricts you.
Explain it to me how can you make an anti-discrimination law constitutional. In other words, try to reconcile AA with the 1-st Amendment.
Just because the government passes a law, does not mean that it is constitutional. As a matter of fact, the government is in business of taking our liberties away, step by step. It is always, "for the greater good". Usualy it starts good, like driver's licence or a gun license. Well of course we don't wan't an untrained person to drive a car or shoot the gun. But, how far are we from licensing speech? After all speech is pretty powerfull. It can change people's minds and it can actually change their behavior. Should we really allow just about anyone to have a right to speak his mind. Maybe we should have some kind of training first. You want to speak in public, you have to take the government's course, and then pass the test. And of course you have to comply with the speech regulation.
How is that?
Back to the topic, quote me the passage from the constitution that say I can't be a racist (or sexist or rap lover or anything else). That's the way the law works. Anything not explicitly illegal, is legal.
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You asked me to eleborate on why it is an interpretation, I gave it to you. You are the one who says it gives you a right to be a racist.
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He does have the right to be a racist, or have any other views he chooses under our constitution. So, I guess I'm saying it too.
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Originally posted by SOB
He does have the right to be a racist, or have any other views he chooses under our constitution. So, I guess I'm saying it too.
Well, if you are ever brought into court on discrimination(whatever the case), and your lawyer is going to make the argument you have a constitutional right to be racist, I suggest you get a new lawyer.
I have a constitutional right to be a racist, I think I have heard it all.
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So, what you're saying is that if I were a racist and I expressed my views (without inciting violence or perpetuating a crime) in a public forum, I would/could be prosecuted for holding those views? Do you honestly believe that to be the case? If so, then I think I too have now heard everything.
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Sure you have a constitutional right to be racist, just like you have a constitutional right to be gay or to be a communist. It's when you act in a manner that is illegal that you get into trouble with the law.
It's never a crime just to be something. Even being a pedophile is not a crime -- it's only when you act on it that the government can step in.
There's some big latin word for the concept, but I can't think of it.
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Originally posted by SOB
So, what you're saying is that if I were a racist and I expressed my views (without inciting violence or perpetuating a crime) in a public forum, I would/could be prosecuted for holding those views? Do you honestly believe that to be the case? If so, then I think I too have now heard everything.
You are changing things now. He asked me why it is an interpretation. He interprets what the constitution says as a right to be racist. That is an iterpretation.
What you are telling me is that when they wrote the constitution, having the right to be racist is what they had in mind, I do not interpret it that way.
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Oh, so you're arguing semantics. You must have too much time on your hands. Try starting up a hobby, I hear online flight sims are fun!
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Originally posted by SOB
Oh, so you're arguing semantics. You must have too much time on your hands. Try starting up a hobby, I hear online flight sims are fun!
He asked me to elaborate on why it is an inerpretation, and i'm arguing semantics?
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Just read the 1-st Amendment. Nothing to interpret there.
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Originally posted by mietla
Just read the 1-st Amendment. Nothing to interpret there.
Oh yeah, right there, you have a right to be a racist, silly me.
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You don't really listen, do you?
I give up.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
It does not say you have a right to be racist. You interpret what it says as a right to be racist.
This would also be covered as free thought. Which is a natural right Which would be covered under the ninth ammendment which covers all natural rights not specifically mentioned in the other ammendments .
While you cannot discriminate because of race, Right or wrong you certainly have the right to like, or not like whomever you want for whatever reason you want.
And free speach is just that free speach. basically you may indeed say whatever you like however popular or unpopular publicly those views are.
You CANNOT have free speach only for the things you or I may agree with or like. Then its not free speach
It is neither the thoughts or the words that are not protected indeed you have the right to both however unpopular
Its the actions which are not protected.
On another note..
Since someone before mentioned the "Patriot Act."
Alot of good people were willing to sacrifice their lives and often did to insure I had these liberties. and Im supposed to be willing to give them up just to gutlessly save my own scrawny prettythang?
I dont think so.
Not I. I for one am not willing to give up one. not one solitary liberty for the illusion (and it IS an illusion) of security.
A few quotes apply well here
"He who is willing to sacrifice liberty for temporary security deserves NEITHER Liberty or security."-- Benjamin franklin
"Those who suppress freedom always do so in the name of law and order."--John V. Lindsay
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.---Edward Abbey
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. --William Pitt
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
While you cannot discriminate because of race, Right or wrong you certainly have a constitutional right to like, or not like whomever you want for whatever reason you want.
His sentence was " I have a constitutional right to be racist". Now thinking is one thing, and I can go along with that. But he also adds this:
Originally posted by mietla
No, it says that I can say (and therefore think) whatever I please. The Constitution does not grant me this right, it just affirms that I have this right, and it forbids the government from encroaching on it.
Now you could interpret that as saying you have the right to call people racial slurs, and it doesn't say that either. I do not interpret freedom of speach as to mean that. Maybe some do, but that is an interpretation.
What is being said is the constitution gives you a right to be racist, and I do not believe the constitution was written to be interpreted that way.
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thank you. For a moment here I thought that I'm the last dude who believes in fundamental human rights.
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To me the term political correctness sounds like it doesn't leave much room for mistakes. Why do I need to be politically correct? Because I'm in business, and have to watch out every step of the way. Reputation is all I have. I'm a bohemian artist. Bohemian artist's have to be cool and hip, it goes with the territory. This is a constant struggle for me.;)
Though I have to tell ya. In my opinion, PC is most prevalent on college campuses. It's not the real world.
Nowadays, if you use a racial epithet of any kind to someone you don't know, you stand a good chance of getting in serious trouble. In more ways than one. Of course, if you use it in a bad way to a complete stranger face to face, stand by to be beat up or worse. That's the problem with written text, is you can't see the other person's face, and see how they react.
I'll tell ya a story about a Japanese guy who couldn't speak English. He was over here for about 2 or 3 months, and was a black belt in Judo and some other strange martial art I'd never seen before... He trained with our Karate club for several weeks.
Couple other guys brought him over to my house, and we were preparing to go to Pensacola to the beach and to see the Naval Aviation Museum. Anyway, I have two model B-29 models hanging from my ceiling, one has a little boy bomb hanging from a wire, positioned over my computer.
I couldn't believe it when my friends pointed that out to Koshi, because not only was Koshi Japanese and also my guest, he became very upset. I didn't blame him, and after consoling him, suggested he and I teach my friends a lesson, (cause Koshi coulda killed 'em), and then everyone laughed and Koshi wasn't upset anymore. We went on and had a great time and got along great.
But that one time I saw how it did hit to the heart. It's a form of belittlement imo. I think those guys did that without thinking and were probably drinking or something.
Les
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Originally posted by mietla
For a moment here I thought that I'm the last dude who believes in fundamental human rights.
Like not to be discriminated against?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Like not to be discriminated against?
now you are getting outright silly. Of course you have no such right. Where did you get this idea?
yeah, a "right" to not being offended? Jeez..
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
While you cannot discriminate because of race, Right or wrong you certainly have a constitutional right to like, or not like whomever you want for whatever reason you want.
His sentence was " I have a constitutional right to be racist". Now thinking is one thing, and I can go along with that. But he also adds this:
Originally posted by mietla
No, it says that I can say (and therefore think) whatever I please. The Constitution does not grant me this right, it just affirms that I have this right, and it forbids the government from encroaching on it.
Now you could interpret that as saying you have the right to call people racial slurs, and it doesn't say that either. I do not interpret freedom of speach as to mean that. Maybe some do, but that is an interpretation.
What is being said is the constitution gives you a right to be racist, and I do not believe the constitution was written to be interpreted that way.
Like I said, you have the right to think what you want. But words are very powerful. And this is not meant to offend you, but it offends me when people interpret the constitution to justify racism.
Now i'm not comparing you to Hitler(plz don't take it that way). But Hitler used words to convince people to turn a blind eye while 6 million jews were terminated. Now you can say our constitution would have given him the right to say what he wants. But when free speach was written, my interpretation is it was written to let the people speak out to the government, or about the government, or not let the government keep the people from speaking their mind about the government. Now free speach is good, but I don't think it should be interpreted as a right to be a racist, i'm sorry, I don't see it that way.
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Kinda outside the discussion but weren't the writers of the Constitution themselves racists?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Kinda outside the discussion but weren't the writers of the Constitution themselves racists?
Lol, not Thomas Jefferson, but maybe his descendants are, I hear the family reunion has become a mess;)
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Thomas Jefferson didn't help write the constitution but he did own slaves. I'm not sure about the guys that did write it. Anyone that was a slave owner was obviously a racist though. I have no point to this other than to point out the Constitution, (minus the ammendments) if written by racists, obviously would not prohibit racism.
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Anyone that was a slave owner was obviously a racist though.
Hmm, ya I agree with you but having slaves was somewhat the norm 200+ years ago. Tell me, what do we call the people in Africa who captured the future slaves and sold them to the slavers?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Thomas Jefferson didn't help write the constitution but he did own slaves. I'm not sure about the guys that did write it. Anyone that was a slave owner was obviously a racist though.
He had a love affair with an afro-american woman and fathered afro-american children. The descendants of Thomas Jefferson used to have a family reunion. From what I was told, the afro-american descendants starting showing up, so they cancelled the reunions. Just heresay mind you.
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pimps...
....some would say
....but not me, cause i have a new avatar
(http://www.spymac.com/gallery/pics/smilies/arrow_left.gif)
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They're still there today Steve, ask them. Anyone whose serious about battling slavery, has plenty to work with in Africa and Eastern countries even today.
Les
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I'm not denying these brilliant men their humanity by calling them racists. It was the norm for their day and from their perspective the belief that white Europeans were superior to black Africans may have seemed justifiable. Interesting to note that one of the more well known framers of the constitution, Benjamin Franklin, owned slaves and thought them to be uneducatable. As the years went by his opinion changed and he eventually became the president of an abolitionist group.
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Originally posted by Steve
Hmm, ya I agree with you but having slaves was somewhat the norm 200+ years ago. Tell me, what do we call the people in Africa who captured the future slaves and sold them to the slavers?
I read an article from an afro-american christian group who blames slavery on africans who sold and owned slaves. They're thoughts are not popular among the afro-american community, of course.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Great, just great, 240 posts on political correctness, and only 10 on the NFL draft. What kind of horrid place is this!!
Ok, i'll admit it, I got sucked into the black hole (or is it not PC to say black hole;) )
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BTW....
I win.
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Let me throw another angle at you. Gay rights activists have interpreted the constitution as saying two men or women have the right to be married. Now alot of us do not interpret it that way(me included), because we do not feel when the constitution was written, that they had that in mind.(and no Akiron, I do not believe they were homophobes;) ) Now it has beed interpreted that they (gay activists) are right, and have the constitutional right to be married.
So what happens? A constitutional amendment preventing gay marriage.
Because what politician is going to risk his political future opposing it?
Ok, now let us say that the supreme court rules that any anti-discrimination laws are illegal, and that discrimination is legal(because the constitution doesn't say it is illegal, therefore, making discrimination legal).
So what happens? A constitutional amendment making discrimination illegal.
And what politician would oppose that? It wouldn't be very PC, now would it?
Just a thought.
BTW http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.html
"The Supreme Court has also recognized that the government may prohibit some speech that may cause a breach of the peace or cause violence."
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It's the terms gay and marriage that confuses some people.:D
Les
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You may agree or you may not agree with the right to BE anything however ....
Read the preamble to the of the Bill of Rights.
It states clearly these are NOT rights given by the state!
It states that these are rights endowed by the Creator in all of us and are not subject to any state infringement/interference.
How is it that these rights have become less over the years?
Is it that those in governance have lessened these rights and We the people have allowed it by not fighting them or giving them a serious argument?
Is it that and the Government has used force/the threat of violence, and actual violence to enforce these encrouchment?
Is it that at times many of the people have backed these encrouchments forgetting the words that you must protect the rights even of those you may hate or you open the way to the loss of your own rights?
So have we as a people, as a nation, bought into the "we are the goverenment we know all, and we see all, and we decide all, and we are here to kill you for your own good" argument? Which to me is at the very roots of P.C. and is in a large part what P.C. is really about ---> CONTROL!
Why does the government prefer to shoot down a 747 full of innocent people that has been hijacked?
Arm the pilots? You really think they are doing that? Ya right! Better look again.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
BTW....
I win.
NEVAR
U R TEH LOSAR
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I read an article from an afro-american christian group who blames slavery on africans who sold and owned slaves.
History as I've read it says that many/most of the slaves were provided by other africans who sold them to slavers. I'm not saying they are wholly to blame but it certainly seems that black people have some responsibility for slavery as well.
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Originally posted by Steve
History as I've read it says that many/most of the slaves were provided by other africans who sold them to slavers. I'm not saying they are wholly to blame but it certainly seems that black people have some responsibility for slavery as well.
I't is silly to blame the slave "catchers" for the whole thing, but it is as silly to overlook their role.
There were black slave holders in the US for f* sake.
Besides, there was nothing unusual about the slavery at this time. As matter of fact most of the human history was based on slave labor. No matter what race, what culture, what time. It was simply a time where no matter how hard you worked you just could not feed yourself and your family. So.... you went to war. Either you got some slaves to feed you, or you became a slave to feed your victors.
Like it or not, 99% of human history not only accepted slavery as normal, they relied on it for survival.
I'm not a historian, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the oldest written records date say 3-5,000 BC? Lets "start" a human civilisation at 10,000 BC. The slavery was a principal engine of the economy for 12, 000 - 300 years.
It is ridiculous for the modern TV fed generation to get "outraged" at our ancestors and the things they've done.
We just don't realize how good a life we really have. You go to Safeway and buy a tomato for $0.25. 300 years ago you had to bust your bellybutton for a year to produce one.
Even today, cultures that chose not to modernize and take adventage of the modern technology, are basically starving to death.
We have DirectTV and $50 DVD players, and they are eating the dirt. Why? They simply chose their way of life, and we chose another.
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I't is silly to blame the slave "catchers" for the whole thing, but it is as silly to overlook their role.
Are you saying I'm silly? I'm confused because I specifically said they weren't wholly to blame but shared some responsibility. It seems we are saying the same thing, except I think you put more effort and eloquence into the thought.
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Originally posted by Steve
Are you saying I'm silly? I'm confused because I specifically said they weren't wholly to blame but shared some responsibility. It seems we are saying the same thing, except I think you put more effort and eloquence into the thought.
No Steve. I'm not saying that you are silly. We are saying the same thing.
I was just trying to highlight the point that there is no one person who is guilty of slavery. Slavery was a system. It had many layers of participants, and any attempt to just blame one layer is wrong.
It is very easy to paint a picture of evil slave owner as a bad guy, but this of course is a simplification. There were many people who benefited from the slavery.
Those who defeated them and captured them (probably mostly black), those who transported them to the coast, those who sold them to the ship owners, those who transported them over the ocean, sold the again etc.
Those involved were africans, europeans, arabs you name it, It's just taht it become fashionable to blame Western Culture for everything.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Now that is funny... I am not the one who got on here and was so sensitive that I hid my motives behind a PC thread..No, you got on here being all sensitive about your justification for using certain deragatory labels as being acceptable, heck even now you have a need to keep justifying it. No need to try to convince me as I made a simple request (I thought), you've stated you won't as it's your right. It is your right. I did not hide my motives and if you've read my posts you'll see that I didn't.
your whole point to the thread was to make people stop using the word jap.
Partially correct. Racial epithets are just not a civilized way to treat and label fellow innocent players on this BBS.
It is pitiful... LOL, and you label this pitiful? You, a man that has no idea of how certain labels can be ugly. You can't even tell the difference. Look in the mirror before you throw around labels. Sad, really.
I would imagine that you are one of the few japannese that is offended in the world...
Obviously you believe that. If you truly believed it to be bad, you wouldn't do it. You feel it is generally harmless as you've explained. BTW, most people of Japanese dissent find "Jap" to be a derogatory label. Keep deluding yourself to excuse your using them. It is your right after all.
your replies range from pleading and whining to obscene vehemence.. you are coming unglued over this... most of the words you tell me I don't type can't be typed on this board... as for "germ" hey... the term get's used a lot here.
They were for sample purposes only, to perhaps add a different light to the argument to illustate some points. Obviously they were lost on you.
I will continue to type what I want within the boundries of this BB... As is your right to do.
in fact... I might type "jap" a lot more since I know it irritates someone as pissy as you...
By all means go ahead! Actually you might want to put it in your sig so it will come up every time you post! It's a reflection of you and your values, not of mine. In any case Lazs, I'll still get a chuckle out of funny things you type, agree with you when you're right (particularly about firearms), and disagree with you when you're wrong. LOL, btw, don't be so "pissy" because I disagree with you.
you may type honky or okie or whitey or whatever.
It is quite obvious that you've missed my argument if you'd even think that I'd do such a thing. Racial epithets are not my thing, they are not good. Period.
Maybe there will be some half white guy who get's all worked up. I make not justifications for what I say.
But you do. Your posts in this thread are attempts at justification. The three sentences following are also justifications by you.
[JUSTIFICATION]I use words to express what I mean... It doesn't matter if I am doing it badly or not getting my point accross... only that I have the freedom to express myself.[/JUSTIFICATION]
And you have every right to express yourself however you please just as I do of expressing a request.
MT.. the tuskagee airmen should not have been discriminated against nor should any black men... I believe most discrimination was unconstitutional. They should have had the SAME rights to test for jobs as anyone else.
lazs
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Originally posted by midnight Target
BTW....
I win.
Yes, you did :)
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Seems pretty simple to me.
Ya got a Japanese fellow telling you the term "JAP" Is offensive to Japanese people.
How hard would It be to respect his wishses?
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bullet or whoever you are... if I were to meet subaru.. and I said jap car or jap and he ent all humorless on it then I would not use the word around him... I would in fact try my best to not be around him at all.
His whole post is typical liberal whiny sneak around the back side of every subject.. we didn'[t even know what he was upset about till 100 or so posts... I do not like humorless people. If we can't make fun of the words and the stereotype then we give em power...
If someone says I can't joke about the stereotypes with friends then they had better have more reason than hurt feeling to back up limiting free speech.
subaru wishes to ban some words and goes on this campaign but, like most liberals he is unwilling to anger other minorities and defends rap music... the most racist and gender demeanig crap that ever came down the pike.
No... his only interest is in banning a word that he personally finds offensive... So... how do we do it? take it out of movies and books and "art" altogether or.... would just keeping lazs from saying or writing it be enough? would not one of my posts be considered "art".... certainly as much as rap?
And.. where do we stop? Should terms and words that christians find offensive be banned also? How bout Okies and white guys? How bout muslims or whoever?.... is subarus sensibilities any more important and deserving of.... Of actually banning a word.... free speech... than anyone elses?
No... in real life... in real practice... we would avoid contact with subaru once we were confronted with his nerosis. I would simply avoid him and continue to use the terms like "jap car" and "krout car" when I wanted to express myself. My mexican and asian friends would continue to joke about my Okie habits... My mexican girlfriend would make fun of me and me of her....
figgin humorless dried up pissy liberals who don't even have the guts to take on a subject head on crack me up.
and... the word jap is not important enough to me to use as a sig.
Things friends say to each other.... "well of course yu ran into it because you didn't see it.. you were DWA (driving while asian)"... "well of course you would want a huge pickup... where is your confederate flag? thought all you okies had confederate flags." "of course yu can't dance... yer a honky."
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
"of course yu can't dance... yer a honky."
lazs
Now that really hurts.
;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
His whole post is typical liberal whiny sneak around the back side of every subject.. we didn'[t even know what he was upset about till 100 or so posts...Can't help it if you decided to not read the very first post of this thread ;) . Go re-read it again and tell me that it took the 100th post for you to understand where I was coming from. BTW, you still don't. Who's this "we" stuff?
I do not like humorless people. You're right, most people don't, including me.
If we can't make fun of the words and the stereotype then we give em power... You're fishing at his point.
If someone says I can't joke about the stereotypes with friends then they had better have more reason than hurt feeling to back up limiting free speech.
Never said that. Re-read my posts. What you do is your business and your right.
subaru wishes to ban some words and goes on this campaign but, like most liberals he is unwilling to anger other minorities and defends rap music... the most racist and gender demeanig crap that ever came down the pike.Again, never said that. Quit putting words in my mouth and making up an argument to suit your argument.
No... his only interest is in banning a word that he personally finds offensive... So... how do we do it? take it out of movies and books and "art" altogether or.... would just keeping lazs from saying or writing it be enough? would not one of my posts be considered "art".... certainly as much as rap?
Again, never said that. Quit putting words in my mouth and making up an argument to suit your argument.
And.. where do we stop? Should terms and words that christians find offensive be banned also? How bout Okies and white guys? How bout muslims or whoever?.... is subarus sensibilities any more important and deserving of.... Of actually banning a word.... free speech... than anyone elses? Again, never said that. Quit putting words in my mouth and making up an argument to suit your argument.
lazs
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Now having said all that, I have an announcement to make to most as it isn't easy to eat crow here:
I apologize.
I painted myself into an idealogical corner without realizing it until tonight. It took a couple of wise people to diplomatically guide me in the right direction.
I "made" myself think more of a word alone NOT CONSIDERING intent, all to lend extra weight to my "argument." (Yeah, I can be stubborn.)
Truth is, racial labels are not used here on this BBS that often. Lazs, in your posts where you use "Jap" cars, etc., it doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother me when I hear some WWII vets use the term as that was a time of our culture then (Besides they've earned that right). Last time it did "hurt" was about 30 years ago a long time ago. No one's used that term against me since then. Your intent as I saw it wasn't to put down anyone. Now if anyone here says anything along the lines of "Intern those J** B******", I'm sure everyone here will understand if I get P.O.'d.
Also, anyone denied a job, etc., only because of their race, color, religion, and/or their sex is wrong, including whites. We're not "there" yet as far as being a prejudice-free society, but we're getting there. As an American, I don't like banning free speech (1st Amendment and all).
Again to close, I apologize. I made myself sensitiveto "validate" an argument not necessary here.
Regards.
P.S. Crow doesn't taste too bad with a little salt and ketchup....hmm kinda tastes like chicken :D
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saburo.. I know that you still don't believe that you give words power by getting upset at them but it is a fact.
I have no idea how you would take me if we were around each other but I know that if intent is the basis for all words causing anger or offense. If you could not divine my intent or, I did not make it clear enough or... you were just hypersensitive or looking for a reason to get upset then we would probly not get along.
When we say "okied up truck" we don't mean that all people from OK have mudflaps and confederate flags... If I say "jap car" I am belittleing the car and owner.. and as I said... stereotypes can lose their power if you make fun of em and bring em out in the open.
Now... If the INTENT in say a bar or or such of a person or group of persons was to anger and humiliate... say the "jap" thing again I would probly help you... I wouldn't tell em they couldn't say "jap" cause that would give them an edge.. I would make fun of them for something else till they lost it (a bigot is easy to goad in my experiance) and then we could wup their ass(s) or get ours wooped together. We would have the power and never let em know they got too us.
How would that be?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
saburo.. I know that you still don't believe that you give words power by getting upset at them but it is a fact.
I have no idea how you would take me if we were around each other but I know that if intent is the basis for all words causing anger or offense. If you could not divine my intent or, I did not make it clear enough or... you were just hypersensitive or looking for a reason to get upset then we would probly not get along.
When we say "okied up truck" we don't mean that all people from OK have mudflaps and confederate flags... If I say "jap car" I am belittleing the car and owner.. and as I said... stereotypes can lose their power if you make fun of em and bring em out in the open.
Now... If the INTENT in say a bar or or such of a person or group of persons was to anger and humiliate... say the "jap" thing again I would probly help you... I wouldn't tell em they couldn't say "jap" cause that would give them an edge.. I would make fun of them for something else till they lost it (a bigot is easy to goad in my experiance) and then we could wup their ass(s) or get ours wooped together. We would have the power and never let em know they got too us.
How would that be?
lazs
Lazs, it's all about intent in my book. If you treated me with respect (as I would you) and we got into a discussion about WWII and you started slipping with the "Jap" label discussing about the Japanese soldiers, it wouldn't offend me. You stated you talk a certain way, you don't mean harm by it, I'll accept it. I still won't talk that way though as that's me. ;)
Now if someone got in my face all because they didn't like my race or the way I look, then I'd have a problem with it.
"Do unto others as you'd have others do unto you" is a good statement to live by.
You coming to the Chino Airshow in mid-May? It would be cool to meet you and the others here to put a face behind the posts. Don't worry about me as I don't think I'd have to worry about you. You don't need to feel like you're walking on eggshells around me, either. :)
regards.
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There is a very important disctinction.
It is one thing if someone uses words which are merely insulting (like Jap) or if you are fat, Fatty, or if you are ugly, 'Spanner', or if you have a big nose...'concord'.
It is quite another thing, to discriminate against people in terms of jobs, or to do violence to them becasuse they happen to be Japanese, or are fat or ugly or have big noses.
The practicality of the situation is that people tend to get discriminated against for one of three reasons: they are not of the indinginous population (in our case, white), they are female, or they are disabled. It is a bit arbitary, but be happy that you at least have that muc on your side.
In all three cases (sorry Lasz, including women) people of these groups represent significant population sectors, and have an equal mental ability, but haven't been given the breaks. Like blacks until the the Tuskegee (sp?) airmen.
So my view is that if someone happens to call you a jap (or me a Paki) deal with it. It's really not a big deal.
As Lasz said, it's a question of intent. Most people can detect malice from just a word that's used in passing conversation.
Seems to me you want to live in some sort of perfect world. Well, it isn't. So you have to learn how to take a few knocks and grow a thicker skin. Particularly if the terms used only hurt your feelings.
Still, I salute your courage for fighting the point.
Ravs
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If anybody calls Surbabaruro a jap at the airshow, we will feed them feet first into the rotating prop of the PoF A6M5.
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As I recall he's only half japanese.
So just do half of the person in the airscrew.
Ravs
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I can understand that, I'm african american from the waist down.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Well, that sounds like the difference then. A lot of people see PC as being totally separate from the other three you listed. As in far below. Myself included.
If someone told me I was being impolite or disrespectful, I'd probably apologize or change my behavior. If someone told me I was being un-PC, I'd probably tell them to piss off.
Yep, there's a difference between having proper manners/using them, and showing common courtesy and being PC.
Of course "they"* are going to say that to have proper manners and be courteous is being PC, when it has nothing to do with being PC...
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I can understand that, I'm african american from the waist down.
Laz wannabe.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
If anybody calls Surbabaruro a jap at the airshow, we will feed them feet first into the rotating prop of the PoF A6M5.
LOL. Naw, that would probably ruin a good prop! :D
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Originally posted by Torque
Laz wannabe.
Well a young man could do worse for a role model. However I always wear at least chaps with my cowboy boots.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I can understand that, I'm african american from the waist down.
Not according to SOB and Airhead. :D
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Well a young man could do worse for a role model. However I always wear at least chaps with my cowboy boots.
and a loaded gun of course...