Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs on February 26, 2001, 08:34:00 AM
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Ok, maybe early war planes are the ultimate nich planes with very few supporters. I don't really know. Been around a long while and have never seen a truly workable way to add early war planes to the game. Now, with perkies the new fad... we are getting even further away from it.
I feel like a seperate area in the arena would work but it seems to really bind on some. RPS causes people to log. Just stuffing em in to the set (reverse perk?)would be a waste.
Soooo.... does anyone have a suggestion as to how we could get early war planes in the game without infringing on the choices of those who don't like to fly em? A way that would give those who do some chance at a fair fite as well as some variety?
lazs
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Who wants a fair fight?
Life ain't fair, and neither is air combat. The reason folks fly the more under-rated rides in a game like AH is for the challenge they get from overcoming the disadvantages. It's why I'm a dedicated Jug driver.
The perk system will make it more valuable to fly those earlier war rides. It doesn't make them any more competitive, but it rewards you more for working with the more inferior equipment. Once HTC fixes the perk bugs so that the best way to get perks is to fly the earlier war planes (instead of straffing tents) there will be plenty of compensation for flying the more challenging craft.
Ok, some folks want a more equal fight in the early war rides. Unfortunately, the only way to do that is with a separate arena, a Historical arena, an RPS, or in scenarios. I'm sure we'll get some combination of those in the future, but it doesn't make sense for HTC to do any of that until they have the later war planeset more complete.
I don't expect HTC to start grinding out early war planes anytime soon. Why would they? Doesn't it make more sense to fill the late war planeset, and then backfill with earlier war stuff later? The early war stuff has been done to death, but where is there a good complete late war planeset? I think HTC is smart to go this route, it makes sense. Combined with a perk system to allow controlled access to some uber-planes, it's a very good idea to fill the late war planeset first IMHO.
What are you more likely to dowload AH to try out, a Hurricane IIc, or a Ta152? I'm betting the vast majority would pick the ta152, so this is a good move for HTC IMHO.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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The early plane set has been done to death? What???
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Soooo.... does anyone have a suggestion as to how we could get early war planes in the game without infringing on the choices of those who don't like to fly em? A way that would give those who do some chance at a fair fite as well as some variety?
Early war planes serve one real purpose: Scenarios. Other than that it just gives people a chance to fly their all-time favorite rides.
As far as fair goes.. well.. how far do you have to go? I've yet to be in a fair engagement. Someone's always had some kind of advantage. You'll never get fair in this arena.
I believe that the early war planes can compete within certain aspects of this game. In the low level mass plane engagements, they should do ok. In high alt high speed engagements, they'd get waxed. Its pretty much the same as any plane with strengths and weaknesses.
I'd just love to see the look on that N1K driver's face when he tries a low level low speed flat turn against a p40 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) If you separate the eras.. I wouldn't have that opportunity.
The MA should be an area where anyone can fly anything against anything else. No limitations. The more choice the better. Of course, that is my oppinion.
AKDejaVu
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let me see... you fly a C.202 to get a Ta152 so that you can uber dweeb kill the other C.202's... who wants a fair fight, anyone? :P
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I love early war planes, too, Lazs. But in all reality, the only way early plane lovers are going to get to use their planes to their best ability is in scenarios. And Leph is right. I can't see HTC adding any early war planes until every other era is complete.
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I think HTC's experience with the RPS in WB has convinced them that early war is not viable in the MA. Too bad. I always had the most fun before the point-and-kill planes showed up.
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The only thing it'll take to get me to fly early-war planes in the MA is for HTC to add them.
Of course, I do want to get a chance to fly in some Hurricane-109E battles, and P-40-Oscar battles and on and on, but that's what events are for, right? And aren't events a good enough reason for HTC dedicate some time to filling out the early or mid planeset before concentrating on every single uberplane ever made? They are 'IMHO'.
anRky
-Ih8ubb
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perhaps I should define "fair fite" as I see it... I think a fair fite is parity of planes. You don't want to get to much speed difference nor do you want to get too much diff in gunnery.... rifle caliber mgs and FF cannon are not competitive IMO. All mid war guns work pretty well. None of the early planes are fast or great climbers. They do poorly in every performance category except turn when compared to mid or late war planes. The mid/late war planes trade off some performance peramiters for others but allways do something as well or better than their contemporaries. By "fair" I mean that the early war planes are overmatched when forced to compete with the current set much less the idiotic perkies.
The early planes were more fragile and turned a lot better. They were and are a lot of fun to dogfite in. Against each other.
I still believe that some early war fields in the arena in the canyons would work.... Heck... so far as fair, let the late planes fly a couple sectors to "vultch" them poor ol inferior planes in a canyon environment. I think the early war planes would give em a run for their money in the twisty turny canyon fighting. a TA 152 against a Spit one or wildcat in the canyons would be one frustrated late war pile it. conversly..... A spit one or P40 stuck out in the middle of the arena all by himself would be B&Z target practice for most mid/late war rides with any sense/skill at all.
bet an area in the canyons that was a couple sectors from the rest of the main would work fine. Sure, some dipshits would spend the time to fly all the way over and have only a short amount of fuel/time to fite but I bet they would just be frustrated trying to fite in the canyons.
lazs
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Sorry lazs.. I still disagree with the notion of creating an arena inside of an arena. Wether its just for furballing or early war planes.
AKDejaVu
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The mentality of the players amaze me..
On first breath they claim that they want the most realistic possible ww2 ac sim on the market.. But then they finish the sentence with stuff like 'who would want to fly hurricane IIc instead of Ta-da'
So what you really want is uber planes fighting in dream scenarios. What-if planes fighting against the rest top 2% of the existing planeset..
I don't want an arena filled with chog, n1k and P51D.. thats about all that people fly there because the rest are dogfood for them.
I grew up reading stories about ww2, BoB, hurricane, mosquito, spit early models, gloster gladiator as well as the not-so-realistic stories about jocks in dream hightech planes of ww2..
The early war planes are the salt of the simulation, it just seems that too many players can't appreciate them. They have no vision. They want the Ferrari2001 model even when playing with the 60's version could be much more fun and challenging.. No down-force no slícks, no brakes.. just 200mph and wind in the air (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The first thing I did when I went to WB was going to historical arena and grabbed hurri IIc to kick some 190's butt.
Some WB cheerleader said AH is nothing but fancyer version of the secret weapons of luftwaffe.. With the perks introduced and opinnions strongly against any kind of RPS I have to admit he had a point.
AH is a great game, I love flying it.. But when the arena gets filled with planes that were built on last months of war, 200 planes max.. I think it's a huge mistake and I don't like it one bit.
H2h is great at least in one part: the host can disable the n1k, chog, osty and other nasties that ruin the game.. And everyone remain happy flying all those planes they never bothered to try on main.
I just wish HTC had the balls to do the same.
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Chogs and Nikis and Osties oh my!
Chogs and Nikis and Osties Oh my!
Chogs and Nikis and Osties OH MY!
-SW
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Hmm..so you want a true to life WWII sim but want to remove the uber rides because they destroy the game. I see. I bet the 190 pilots went to the Allied Air Command and said "That P-51 is too damn uber...remove it now!!"
Sheesh..if you don't like the plane..find it's weakness and kill it.
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Lt. Col. Aaron "txace-" Giles of the 457th BG
"Fait Accompli"
In arena: semperfi
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Just introduce the early war planes as soon as possible and let them be flown in the MA by anyone who dares. The real reason to have them is not the MA but Special Events (and maybe a HA?????) and they are simply necessary there to have some realistic early/mid war scenarios which are much anticipated!!!!
If they could hold their own in the main it is an added bonus, if not it doesn't reduce the need to have 'em.........
Alexis, Paulina, Monique, Oh My!
Alexis, Paulina, Monique, oh My!
Alexis, Paulina, Monique, OH MY!
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Thud, the fairly mediocre pilot formerly known as Bies
Bring the Hurricane to AH! (together with the Invader)
[This message has been edited by Thud (edited 02-27-2001).]
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Texace: in real world there are limitations to which extent the best available planetypes ARE available. When the arena gets filled with 1-2 different planetypes fighting eachothers, I don't find that very appealing.
I like killing n1kis and chogs, I just don't like to see 80-90% of the population using them. I want more variety.. Maybe AH is just not a game for me.
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sea... You wouldn't even have to have a seperate arena in and arena... Just, as I said, put a few filds a few sectors away from the rest in a canyon area and only allow early planes to take off from them. Many "real life" fields only allowed certain planes as did carriers.
Any perk jerks or mid war guys that would fly 2 sectors to fight in the canyons with the early planes would be welcome so far as I'm concerned but....
You need some "sheltering" for ealy planes. You can do it with RPS or seperate arena. Both have proved unpopular in the past. I do not see what your objection to my idea is.
lazs
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Quote: "I bet the 190 pilots went to the Allied Air Command and said "That P-51 is too damn uber...remove it now!!"
a) 190 vs P51 is not the problem Tex. If the LW pilots had to fly Me109E's in the same "arena" as the P51's I'm sure they would have kicked the german aircraft designers asses, for not being able to produce competitive planes.
b) Early warplanes for scenarios only? great... so you get nil combat experience in a (non exsistent) RPS frameset - you only get a chance to fly the bird in a scenario... oh boy.
c) What-if's vs realism. U'll never get full realism in a flightsim because "real" warfare consisted of "hours of boredom and minutes of sheer terror", as one pilot put it.
AH is FULL of what-if's for GAMEPLAY.
What if 109's fought 109's, what if there was no night - only GOOD weather, what if everyone flew with icons displaying range, what if C.202's fought Ta152's, what if you could die and come back to life... what if etc etc etc.
So basically it's a question of degrees. A matter of steps between Air quake and a tad more realism....
To me more realism IS FUN, others are content with air quake - maybe they play AH because in the real quake you only get to fly when you step on a jump pad? I dunno, really...
What I'm trying to say is: stop using the "so you want full realism? well then this and that will happen blah" argument. There can be no "full realism", I KNOW that - we are talking about degrees of gameplay features... a balance between dumbing down the game to boost the newbies ego (I can fly/kill in a Fw190 after joining the game 10 minutes ago, man why'd they take 3 months of flight training to master their planes?), and the hardcore simmers who would accept 8 hours of real time flying to bomb targets in Berlin... You can't please 'em all so you have to find a golden middle - where that golden middle is, that's what we are arguing about...
AH is a "young" sim so we'll have to hang on in there and see how it grows up. At the moment I have a feeling they don't want to go anywhere WB has been, just because WB was there, but IMO WB wasen't "all" wrong and AH isen't "all" right...
d) another favorite argument: "There are not enough ppl in AH to split them up in different arenas". hmmm, I dunno... I fly at high peak times, when there are 150 online and I fly at low peak times with 20 ppl online. I still get my fights no matter what - basically the only ppl of interest are the ones in your line of sight. I don't "see" the other 140 ppl in the arena, they are busy elsewhere, so they might as well be in another arena - they have no affect on my restricted airspace.
With low peak times I'd decide wich arena I'd join like I did in WB: Either go where everybody was (MA), or enter the HA ALONE and grab a buff. Usually someone would come by, shoot my buff down, I'd grab a fighter and we'd go 1v1, others would come in and we'd fight 1vs2, 3vs3... whatever.
WB offered a choice at least... I don't care if you guys didn't like the HA, you still had the MA. I don't care if you were pissed that ppl would choose the uber planes in the HA, thus unbalancing either allies or axis, I flew LW no matter what, adapted, and had FUN even vs allied numbers - it's not a question of the HA being matter of factly a bad idea because YOU didn't like it... it's choice that matters.
at least to me
Effdub
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effdub.. good observations but... I don't believe that seperate arenas work well... or haven't in the past no matter what the player base. People don't like to pull up roots and go "check out" another arena. If they see one with 140 and one with ten...
If the early war planes were just a couple of sectors seperation from the "anything goes fields" and in an area that favored their strengths like "canyon world" then they would be isolated enough to not have to compete with the later planes but included in the arena so that people could try them with no hassle and some real advanced knowledge.... Same radar, same radios etc.
They would be included without the problems of parity. If no one wanted to fly em then that would of course, be another thing but no one would be forced to do anything. I can think of no down side to this and I still want to know...
Anyone have a better idea?
lazs
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Lazs, your Idea is a very good one.
a) Radar could show what's going on in the different areas at a glance.
No guys flying in the early war area? ok, let's go "where the action" is - fair deal.
b) Resets only work when a certain ammount of fields (as it is now) from ALL areas are captured. Late warbird guys and early plane lovers would actually work for the same goal (reset), whilst flying their fav ride in a more even environment. Cross over guys could jump from area to area to help capture fields, defend, whatever.
Good Idea Lazs! Congrats (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by lazs:
sea... You wouldn't even have to have a seperate arena in and arena... Just, as I said, put a few filds a few sectors away from the rest in a canyon area and only allow early planes to take off from them. Many "real life" fields only allowed certain planes as did carriers.
Yer confusing AKs again lazs, I didn't comment on your idea. Although I think just making all of the fields closer together and maybe having less of them would be just as effective.
-SW
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Wow MrSid, you certainly know how to generalize. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You can post all the wishful thinking you like, but I think my post was correct in terms of why it's a better idea for HTC to do the late war, and do it fairly completely, before they expend any resources on the early war stuff. Yep, there are always a few, myself included, who will love to fly the early war birds, but the majority will be far more likely to join AH to fly the sexy late war planes. IMFO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, I don't see "80-90%" N1k's and C Hogs. I see plenty of 51's, 109's, 190's, D Hogs, Buffs, F6F's, Zekes, and even the odd 47 or C 205. In certain situations (like a field under attack where you'll have a bunch of C hogs attacking and N1k's defending).
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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sea...yer right... I have no idea why i get you two mixed up every single time. I think that just putting the fields closer together wouldn't do much for the early rides. It would help but it would screw with the strat game (i wouldn't care but some would). I'm not trying to exclude anyone with this idea. I am trying to offer MORE choice. Choice without parity tho is really no choice at all.
Lep... I agree that late war mid war is where the player base and money is. I don't mind that AH concentrate on em but.... I believe that my idea would add player base and variety for very little investment in time and effort and best of all..... It really shouldn't "piss anyone off" because their style of fighting/playing was being minimized... The early war planes would not be at the expense of the late war guys or the strat guys. everyone would win. People who normally would not like early war planes (or think they wouldn't) could try them in a very painless casual and not forced way. No animosity.
The only possible downside would be if too many liked the early war area and The others were being neglected. I don't really forsee that happening do you?
lazs
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The only option that I can come up with beside an HA or early war area is to extent the perk-system a bit.
Make the early war rides really cheap or free and lift up the costs for all planes a bit thus making older rides more attractive.
Maybe this could vary with time, so one day or week make the early planes really worthwile flying and the next period return the costs to almost the present situation. Somewhat like having the arena changing between the pacific terrain and the land warfare terrain coming up and rotating them each tour. This way you would satisfy the early ride fans with an arena in with they could compete reasonably well and the '45 fliers only have to adapt a bit at certain times.
As long as we've don't have the playerbase to have more arenas or scenarios more often this is the only way I can think of to have the older rides play a part in the MA. The only drawback is all the perkies involved, it becomes a bit of a point management game.
Just my spare change......
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Thud, the fairly mediocre pilot formerly known as Bies
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Don't see any drawbacks to lazs' plan. I'd even hang one of those new cloud banks over Canyon World at about 12K, to discourage stratobuffs and late war cherry pickers.
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Lephturn wrote:
"The early war stuff has been done to death. .
Yeah right.
ROFL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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thud.. I love early war planes but even I don't want to fly em in a large arena filled with mid and late war rides. I don't think a lot of people would take kindly to a "reverse perk" system and being forced to fly em. You need choice and parity. Any type of perk system would remove both of those things for most people.
Pop... excellent idea on the clouds! I really think tho that just being a couple sectors away would discourage all but the most attention starved killjoys.... I allso believe that the community reaction to their being jerks would probly discourage most normal people too. Still... clouds would be cool... It would not take much to insulate the early war area from the other.
I have been part of a lot of experiments to get in early war planes and all have pretty much failed and caused animosity. We need to try something completely different. Making the same mistakes over and over is not the answer...
Let's hear some new ideas... surely someone has an idea besides me.
lazs
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The only thing I can think of is one of those gawd awful RPS things lazs, and we all know we don't want none of that here.
Hmmmm..... unless we make all front line fields being capable of launching only early war planes and the further back fields the late war rides and the fields between the front lines and the back homelands would be mid war rides.
Doubt that would work either.
-SW
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"unless we make all front line fields being capable of launching only early war planes and the further back fields the late war rides and the fields between the front lines and the back homelands would be mid war rides."
I think this idea deserves some exploration. (I've suggested something similar in the past.)
It could be combined with a "modified" RPS. So that the front line fields started with very early planes, and the rear fields ended with "perkable" very late war planes.
Allow any plane to be rearmed/refueled at any field. Also, allow "aces" with (pick a number) kill streaks to launch any currently available plane at any field. Rewarding both safe landings and "doing well" (kill streaks). No perk points would be needed.
Another advantage is that the most valuable strat targets would be the enemy's rear fields. This would take some pressure off the early war furballers at forward fields.
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Well pop.... gotta dissagree. There would be no point in having the early rides if they could run into mid or late war planes that they could not even damage. Plus... I wanted to keep it simple. Some fields for early rides only with enough seperation and early plane friendly terrain so that mid or late war planes wouldn't even bother. No one "forced" to fly early war planes at all and early war rides insulated from the very planes that made them obsolete in real life.
I don't want a (choke) "reward" system that allows people to club early war planes with latter ones. No one would even bother to go up in an early ride if they could expect to fight 10-50% later planes. If there were any type of RPS the P51 guys would have a hissy fit. choosing between dieing in an early plane and just taking off in a latter plane from another field is no choice at all. Early war planes against later ones is no parity at all.
How do we get to fly early war planes against other early war planes in the arena? I can't think of any way other than I have described.
lazs
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I think the idea of having a piece of the 'front' that was removed enough for early war AC to be feasible would be good.
However, I think the big draw for early war aircraft will be for scenarios.
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Lazs, except for 1940 isn't there pretty much a P51 in every "year" set? P51 MkIII, P51A, P51B, P51C, P51D, P51H etc? Each P51 in it's respective year offers the pony guys enough of a speed difference to run away so I don't think it would be much different than what they do right now.
I have no problem with an RPS, so long as it's implemented properly. The perk system would also allow for a guy to buy himself a P51B when it's a "BoB" planeset and then the next planeset evolution would allow him to buy a P51D thereby affording him his running space that he craves.
Does that make sense at all?
-SW
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Yeah lazs, I see yer point. Bad idea to provide an incentive for the point-n-kill planes to go after the early war stuff. Guess there has to be some isolation, like canyons and clouds.
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sea... we have enough animosity now with just slight percieved differences in the most popular planes. I don'd want a P51b to be screwing around in my P40/spit one/109e/wildcat/zeke fights but .... I have resigned myself to the fact that people want to have a bigger club than the next guy and that the idiotic perk system will have to run it's course or simply force me out. I really see no place for me in a perk arena that is not frustrating. Any RPS will bore a lot of people... P51 guys won't like having p51's only as a "perk" for however long. What I think is funny tho is when there will allways be a stupid perk plane that will run down the 51... Then we will hear how "idiotic" the perk system is from someone besides me!
Bet a lot of people like myself, plus newbies plus early war fans would love a haven away from the rest of the late war planes and the perks in particular. I won't fly the perks. I will sell my points on EBay. even someone as sleazy as me feels guilty beating on newbies with a perk ride.
I think the area I am talking about would only impact the majority that likes latter and latter planes and tiered class "perk" system by... They would notice that someone was having fun without them. The good guys would either ignore it or join in... There would be a place for any type of fighting except those who wanted parity in a mid war set.... They would still be screwed by the idiotic perk system. I am just looking for a haven away from em.
lazs