Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Chalenge on July 22, 2020, 01:26:02 AM
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I know HTC revealed the software that they use to make this game some years ago, but despite having been involved in the thread and considering the format specifically I cannot recall the name of the software itself.
Does anyone remember what it was, or have a link to where it was discussed?
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Found it!
https://www.presagis.com/en/product/creator/
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Are you going to be 3D modelling aircraft form the wish list? Put me down for a 109E7 :angel:
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Not if there is zero chance of anything going into the game.
At one time I wanted to build something like an old game I used to play, but I have zero programming experience. I looked at the modeler used to make AH and it looks oddball compared to 3DS Max, plus it costs a fortune. It's not worth it to me, when I can use 3DS Max for less than $300/year. Doesn't matter though, because it would take me years to make a simple game nothing like AH.
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it appears 3ds max will actually handle openflite models (the engine from the link you provided) natively. just go to export, or export selected.
https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2019/ENU/3DSMax-Data-Exchange/files/GUID-F3C9B5A8-41A9-466A-8D87-180C1389E7F5-htm.html
I also would be willing to make some models if we could get support for getting them in the game.
and could use 3ds max to do it.
I'm sure there would be hurdles to jump, and we would need some technical expertise from hitech to get them in the game. but it should be do able.
in theory we could supply rigged textured models built out in the same way as previous models. Hitech would then open them in his 3d cad program and export them in whatever specific format he is using in game.
that of course isnt the only way to do it, but i dont know anything about the aces high model format. though i could look into it.
i'd be willing to give it a go anyway.
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In previous posts Hitech stated that they have never accepted outside work because it's more work for them to correct mistakes than it is to build the models.
If that ever changes I would love to know about it, but something tells me that more people have based 3DS Max skills, but not many have skills at the AAA level.
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i can see that point of view.
I bet we have a few guys who could pull off nice models, and properly configure them though. :grin:
I get it probably would never happen, but i'd love to see it tried.
so I also would like to hear if this policy ever changes. And would like to offer my skills in attempting a new model.
I'm 100% confident that we can upgrade the current models, or add new models that exceed the current standard.
the easiest test would be to attempt to use a current model and remodel it, or model a new variation of it.
i get it will never happen, i just hate the idea there might be no new content ever again.
<<<<does 3d models and cad for a living<<<offers free labor!
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Have at it. The only way I will give free *anything* is if I have an account that is also *free.*
I didn't realize how much work I would be spending on 'just' sounds.
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Have at it. The only way I will give free *anything* is if I have an account that is also *free.*
I didn't realize how much work I would be spending on 'just' sounds.
There..... we do not have volunteers at our business either. We have to earn our own money.
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The industry standard pay rate for animators is $675/hr. and no I didn't make a decimal error. Why would an animator EVER work as an intern?
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meh, i make a good living at my day job and it leaves me with plenty of time for my own projects.
Just because i would be doing it for no pay, doesn't mean i would get no value from the work.
I don't need everything to make me money, for me there is also value in doing things i like.
I like to make 3d models, i find it relaxing, i tend to spend a couple hours a night building some random model anyway just for fun. It helps me unwind to make models that don't have to be accurate to .00001".
I'd like to fly my own models in aces high.I'd like to bring aces high into the 21st century.
If a couple new models helped make the game bring in any extra people that would be a win also.
call it a hobby.
(and 675 an hour seems like an exaggeration...The average hourly wage for a 3D Animator in the United States is $30 as of June 28, 2020, but the range typically falls between $25 and $36. but that honestly is neither here nor there. )
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meh, i make a good living at my day job and it leaves me with plenty of time for my own projects.
Just because i would be doing it for no pay, doesn't mean i would get no value from the work.
I don't need everything to make me money, for me there is also value in doing things i like.
I like to make 3d models, i find it relaxing, i tend to spend a couple hours a night building some random model anyway just for fun. It helps me unwind to make models that don't have to be accurate to .00001".
I'd like to fly my own models in aces high.I'd like to bring aces high into the 21st century.
If a couple new models helped make the game bring in any extra people that would be a win also.
call it a hobby.
(and 675 an hour seems like an exaggeration...The average hourly wage for a 3D Animator in the United States is $30 as of June 28, 2020, but the range typically falls between $25 and $36. but that honestly is neither here nor there. )
Ya the 675 is what the shop charges customers, much like an auto repair shop charges you $120 an hour in labor an ya know that tech isnt getting that much.
I do wish HTC allowed more help from outside. Like you said to some doing these things is a hobby and something they enjoy. "Bustr" made what 3, 4 maps. I dont think he got "paid" to do all that "work". To him I think it was the challenge of building a map using layout and distances to focus a fight. If it wasnt fun why would he bother.
HTC is a small company and I think it would benefit from some outside help from the community as long as he could keep the standard he has.
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Ya the 675 is what the shop charges customers, much like an auto repair shop charges you $120 an hour in labor an ya know that tech isnt getting that much.
I do wish HTC allowed more help from outside. Like you said to some doing these things is a hobby and something they enjoy. "Bustr" made what 3, 4 maps. I dont think he got "paid" to do all that "work". To him I think it was the challenge of building a map using layout and distances to focus a fight. If it wasnt fun why would he bother.
HTC is a small company and I think it would benefit from some outside help from the community as long as he could keep the standard he has.
That is where a good bit comes from.... the community. It benefits the game and the community.
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Who is John Galt?
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Who is John Galt?
I am John Galt.
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I am Spartacus
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I am Kenai ! :D
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Frankly, I'm excited to see the quality of our resident Professional "John Galt" and what he has to donate to the community. :banana:
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(https://ibb.co/SmqsNtL)
i feel like your talking a bit of crap unnecessarily.
I'll willingly show you, i aint skeered.
could have just asked though.
i actually did this today just playing around to see if i could make a passable ww2 airplane.
granted it's not game optimized and 18k polys.and its more complex (individual panels) than a game model would need to be. and i cheated with a meshshooth or two to speed things up which im not a fan of doing. but i was just having fun.
looks ok to me for an evening messing around. and would be a good start on a high res model that could be wrapped over lower quality geometry if nothing else.
just for fun, now it will sit in a folder on my hard drive never to be finished or used most likely.
so more of a waste of time than if we could actually use some of these in a game. but i got my value out of it. on my terms.
but i dont know enough about the ah3 engine to actually attempt to make a model for it so i was just playing around.
https://ibb.co/SmqsNtL
https://ibb.co/tMLBsZk
https://ibb.co/v15mBBs
https://ibb.co/N7hZGBX
missing a ton of details still, beauty is in the details.
https://ibb.co/hYf2SnF
i tried to img tag it
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The overall shape is an airplane, but what I see is a lot of bad geometry. I don't think it could be used in the game.
It's not your fault. A lot of self-taught artists make the same mistakes. Any animator worth his salt could tell you why this is so, but maybe Hitech feels differently.
My two cents.
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i freely admitted it was some hacked together non game optimized geometry i smashed together in a couple of hours.
congratulations you pointed out exactly what i said, you wouldn't use that exact geometry as the in game model.
that geometry is needlessly complex in a couple areas. but you could use that to make a displacement mesh and even then meh. though it makes a spectacular layout helper when making lo poly meshes.
your correct though, that would be unacceptable geometry.thou shall not use turbosmooth being commandment 3.
game geometry for ah3 is probably tris, and a fairly low limit at that.
you would end up with game model geometry like,,,
https://ibb.co/MMKp3nS
though i have no idea of the actual density ,and let me be clear this is just a representation of a small piece.
i understand the concepts involved here is all im trying to say.
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double
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There was a thread years back where Hitech was answering questions on this topic. I think it was Ink that had a P-40 that showed the work he had done (typical early stage work with non-planar edges, lots of tris. In that thread I believe Hitech displayed an image of one of their models as an example and gave the vertex budget at between 30k and 100k (memory foggy). I know when I was working on the soldier (never completed) that the QUAD count budget was to be 8-12k. I took the ZBrush work to 30 Million polies and got close to photorealism, but then shelved it all for sound work in FMod.
If I ever came across a winning Lotto ticket tossed in the wind I might hire a programmer (or try to buy AH3) to build a WWII ship-busting sim, but I don't think that's likely to happen. I'm happy to be with my family and milk the cows as time allows.
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a little cleanup gets it down to 12k i wonder if 30k would be all inclusive for cockpit and gear and all. 100k would be super nice.
and of course a little tweaking goes a long way, the actual game model wouldnt need all that detail modeled in.
a few tweaks gets you some geometry thats much more reasonable. (yes it still needs help)
zbrush and substance painter are just great fun to use with 3ds max.
https://ibb.co/48hRj1Q
i think i could pull it off, i know it may not look really like it from what ive posted, but im not a complete noob.
i also know it isnt going to happen so im not trying too hard for a game model.
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I am impressed Toasted, great start. :rock
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That looks damn good.
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That looks pretty impressive to me.
:aok
:salute
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Holy hell @Hitech give this man a gig!
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There is so much more involved in creating/designing a new plane for aces High
Research on the plane type, plane flight performance characteristics, etc.... All actual historical documented information
The easiest part to creating the new plane type is actually the modeling/skining of the plane....
It is the gathering of historical authenticated documents and information that is the hardest part so HTC can build the new plane model and get it as close to the actual real-world model as possible
Figured that I would add this reply to the discussion since no-one has bothered to mention anything about it yet
Hope this helps
TC
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Couple of days in CFD and boom :D
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There is so much more involved in creating/designing a new plane for aces High
Research on the plane type, plane flight performance characteristics, etc.... All actual historical documented information
The easiest part to creating the new plane type is actually the modeling/skining of the plane....
It is the gathering of historical authenticated documents and information that is the hardest part so HTC can build the new plane model and get it as close to the actual real-world model as possible
Figured that I would add this reply to the discussion since no-one has bothered to mention anything about it yet
Hope this helps
TC
Yeah, and HiTech can do all that by himself. What he can't do is create 3D models.
Fuji asked the question that many of us have been thinking for a long time now - Is Waffle still at HTC? Considering that the last plane to be updated was the Boston in February of last year, it's a fair assumption that HTC is a one man show now. Can't update or add new planes without a 3D modeler.
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It's a good bet that if Waffle left HTC, they would let us know.
There is so much more involved in creating/designing a new plane for aces High
Research on the plane type, plane flight performance characteristics, etc.... All actual historical documented information
The easiest part to creating the new plane type is actually the modeling/skining of the plane....
It is the gathering of historical authenticated documents and information that is the hardest part so HTC can build the new plane model and get it as close to the actual real-world model as possible
Figured that I would add this reply to the discussion since no-one has bothered to mention anything about it yet
Hope this helps
TC
As Devil pointed out, all the "numbers" that go into the aircraft to make her work is something entirely different. HiTech could change the Jeep to have it fly like a 163 if he wanted. Wasn't there Sharks with laser beams attached to their heads??? I've only been around to mess with The Claw, but I recall some posting a Super Fokker, hearing of an RV-8 with twin gatlings as well.
There is no point in discussing how the model will handle, only how she looks and if she meets HiTech's criteria.
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If someone creates the model, I am sure hitech could plug the numbers in. The hang for me would be all that work as a one man show.
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Models when damaged too.....
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Models when damaged too.....
sure, and i don't know how ah3 handles things, but it wouldn't surprise me to need multiple models of the same plane in different levels of detail.
but even then interiors are still probably the most time consuming part.
i bet we could find some people to volunteer to do textures.
and yes, the coding side would still have to done by hitech.
I mean yeah we wouldn't get a whole new plane set immediately, but a few a year should be doable.
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Two weeks each.
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Two weeks each.
I mean yeah, maybe.
I do know how much work this actually is.
Also I have a day job. (But the circumstances are such that i have free time in front of a very good pc quite often)
And yes, i will freely admit to being a bit rusty at dedicated game models, so will take me just a bit to get back up to speed doing them.
(but not too bad, i have done them in the past, and i keep up to date on the latest techniques and software. Also a good portion of my job is reverse engineering cad models from things. And i use a lot of the same tools now as i did then.)
but i am 100% confident i can do it as well as most mere mortals.(though i'm not sure anyone will ever be up to Chalenge's level)
the first one would be the hardest, setting limits on what could and could not be done, and general formatting.
I think 3 or 4 a year is a reasonable number to shoot for all things considered.
yes it would be great to do more, but i'd like to set some reasonable goals.
And honestly, I would even pay Chalenge's monthly fee every month as a consultant. if he wants to lend me his expertise and keep me from doing stupid things we have to fix later.
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I already said that I don't think Hitech is up to supporting outside modelers like 3DS Max, so until he says otherwise it's pointless to speculate on what we might be up to doing.
I can model, rig, animate, texture, retopo, . . . but I do not intend to spend money on Multigen.
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Just send HiTech a message and ask the man. :old:
I'm sure he will reply to those questions candidly, ending speculation.
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I already said that I don't think Hitech is up to supporting outside modelers like 3DS Max, so until he says otherwise it's pointless to speculate on what we might be up to doing.
I can model, rig, animate, texture, retopo, . . . but I do not intend to spend money on Multigen.
you are once again correct. We actually have no idea if hitech's production workflow would play nice with input from 3ds max. and even if it did that may not be the thing that kills the idea.
I'm not even opposed to picking up the cost for a license or two of his software if we have to. at least in the short term to see if we can work around it easily.
It's more likely the other complexities that would kill this idea.
having said that, i would be willing to make a side wager that 3ds max was capable of outputting models that could be easily converted to a format the game engine could deal with.
I was merely spit balling the idea, and offering what i was willing to do.
and i probably shouldnt have even offered in public, but i got excited.
I am perfectly happy not to force a response from hitech. He is free to take me up or not, There are pros and cons to consider from each end.
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you are once again correct. We actually have no idea if hitech's production workflow would play nice with input from 3ds max. and even if it did that may not be the thing that kills the idea.
I'm not even opposed to picking up the cost for a license or two of his software if we have to. at least in the short term to see if we can work around it easily.
It's more likely the other complexities that would kill this idea.
having said that, i would be willing to make a side wager that 3ds max was capable of outputting models that could be easily converted to a format the game engine could deal with.
I was merely spit balling the idea, and offering what i was willing to do.
and i probably shouldnt have even offered in public, but i got excited.
I am perfectly happy not to force a response from hitech. He is free to take me up or not, There are pros and cons to consider from each end.
You're obviously skilled. You should msg Hitech in private and ask if there is anyway you could assist with anything.
Resources are tight, but skilled volunteers might be able to help.
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That's pretty damn impressive toasted!
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Wow, very nice toasted! :salute
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Issues.
One of the reasons it is difficult to switch modeling is because Open Flight supports tagging of polygons. While it is possible to group all like tagged polygon into objects and then put the attributes on the object for all children. It creates a large number of nodes to keep track of in the model.
Moving components.
Open flight animation is designed for flight sims. Animating control surfaces and landing gear would have to be completely rewritten to work more in line with 3d studio.
When we do modeling we purchase models of the type toasted showed. From there it was typically 1 to 2 months worth of full time work to complete all the pieces of a model. The cockpits take as much or more time then the external shape.
Muiltiple LOD's must be created of the mesh.
We already do import support 3d studio , we use its format for our pilot and troop animations.
Detailing: Many things are put into a model that you do not see. Things like attachment points so we know where to put weapons on the plane. Both live and dead pieces of planes. Bullet holes view points. Animation limits.
So I am not saying it could not be done, but creating a completed mesh is much more involved then simply creating a shape like toasted posted.
HiTech
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It's always simple for folks who do not do it.
I am glad all I have to do is pay my fee and have fun. I don't have to run someone else's company or worry about their bottom line.
Thanks HiTech!
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I just happen to be bored and was checking out the old site....
gotta say miss some of you guys....
now that I have 2 published games...I give props to hitech...
making a game isnt as easy as people think...and far more difficult for one person....
BUT with a little fire in the belly and wanting to stuff certain words down peoples necks... "you'll never be able to do that"
you can do anything....
this is a phone game I made 100% me...
all coding...models...textures everything
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ZeroClueGaming.DragonsvsAliens
this is a full fledged large world with fully animated Dinosaurs that have all their own animations...
yes there are some bugs... BUT this is a AAA game all by me...everything...
https://zerocluegaming.itch.io/eat-humans
to everyone who said I couldn't do it.....
who laughed at me...who thought I was not "smart" enough
eat it.
:-P
if you see this Car running around your home town...say hi its me...
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/1710/v30v3rlx5s0o4ie4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/v30v3rlx5s0o4ie/chally.jpg/file)
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Good to see you BLINK :salute
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My 10 year old great Nephew is working on his first game right now. He loves doing things like that.
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By definition a AAA game cannot be made by a single person. Nice try though, Blink.
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Issues.
One of the reasons it is difficult to switch modeling is because Open Flight supports tagging of polygons. While it is possible to group all like tagged polygon into objects and then put the attributes on the object for all children. It creates a large number of nodes to keep track of in the model.
Moving components.
Open flight animation is designed for flight sims. Animating control surfaces and landing gear would have to be completely rewritten to work more in line with 3d studio.
When we do modeling we purchase models of the type toasted showed. From there it was typically 1 to 2 months worth of full time work to complete all the pieces of a model. The cockpits take as much or more time then the external shape.
Muiltiple LOD's must be created of the mesh.
We already do import support 3d studio , we use its format for our pilot and troop animations.
Detailing: Many things are put into a model that you do not see. Things like attachment points so we know where to put weapons on the plane. Both live and dead pieces of planes. Bullet holes view points. Animation limits.
So I am not saying it could not be done, but creating a completed mesh is much more involved then simply creating a shape like toasted posted.
HiTech
Thanks for a detailed answer.
How much work would it be to recreate a plane like the Fw190-A9 from the A8, The Bf109-AS models from the 109g series already made, and accept small 3d differences - hardly recognizable anyway , but reuse the cockpit, plane 3d model etc ?
I understand the performance numbers would differ and have to be flight tested, more armor, weight or whatever the difference is for each model.
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Wasn't the A-9 just a re-engined A-8?
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Wasn't the A-9 just a re-engined A-8?
Well, it had 10cm longer engine compartment,more armor on the oil ring, and a 190F8 canopy.
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Well, it had 10cm longer engine compartment, more armor on the oil ring, and a 190F8 canopy.
The A-8 and D-9 also got the blown canopy. Some A-8s got the new engine of the A-9. Cowling with enlarged oil tank, 30 mm longer.
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There is so much more involved in creating/designing a new plane for aces High
Research on the plane type, plane flight performance characteristics, etc.... All actual historical documented information
The easiest part to creating the new plane type is actually the modeling/skining of the plane....
It is the gathering of historical authenticated documents and information that is the hardest part so HTC can build the new plane model and get it as close to the actual real-world model as possible
Figured that I would add this reply to the discussion since no-one has bothered to mention anything about it yet
Hope this helps
TC
Are the flight models really historically documented?
From what I've read from German pilots who flew the 190 and the way it flys here this doesn't seem to be so. I've read many books written from WW2 pilots from different sides.
I have to paraphrase but I recall one German pilot saying that the 190 would get an aileron flutter as a stall warning and if you continued to pull it would drop a wing and spin 180. He mentioned how this was used as a last ditch maneuver.
I've also read about earlier models of the spitfire experiencing aileron reversal at high speeds. I have not seen this modeled here.
I was under the impression that the modeling here was set to match speed/climb but not the actual handling characteristics. I'm curious to hear more on this.
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I was under the impression that the modeling here was set to match speed/climb but not the actual handling characteristics. I'm curious to hear more on this.
As best I can I do both.
But stuff like "aileron flutter as a stall warning" is not that useful to model because we already give you as much cue as we can the stall is approaching. And the flutter is known mostly by the vibration in the stick. We have no way to directly model that. (BTW rv8 also flutters ailerons in rolls).
HiTech
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Cool.Thanks for the info.
The part about the RV is interesting too.