Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Ripsnort on February 05, 2001, 08:58:00 AM
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Just checking out potential upgrade options, title of posts asks the question,however, I have another question...I've used primarily Intel chips, whats the difference besides price?
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-05-2001).]
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Pretty good price, if it includes a fan and heatsink.
Although, it is a Socket A processor, which will not drop into an Intel socket.
Never used an AMD, I do know there are software differences between the Intel and AMD processors. The AMD does not support the full MMX instruction set, but has its on 3DNow instructions.
Most video drivers make use of the Intel MMX instruction set, but I have never really checked to see which ones would use the 3DNow instructions so I cannot comment as to a difference this may make.
It would be something I checked before taking the plunge into the AMD world.
Just some thoughts.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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Thanks for the quick response Skuzzy, something tells me that another $70 bucks for an Intel 966 would be worth my computer hardware illiterate worthwhile self.
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That's a good cpu for the price but as skuzzy said you need a socket A mobo to use it (got a TB 1ghz myself since 1 month it rocks).
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hey Rip,
www.pricewatch.com (http://www.pricewatch.com)
THE place to go for prices!!
i am thinking of upgrading to a 966 or 1ghz also! (going to stick with Intel though)
Skuzzy, (if you read this), I have an Asus P3V4X, the specs say " 733mhz + " as far as the processor. Will it handle the 966 or 1ghz as long as it is a slot 1 chip?
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mason,.the specs do indeed top out at 733Mhz for this motherboard. According the ASUS WEB site, the board is still not upgradeable past 733Mhz. There is no BIOS upgrade to allow a faster processor for it.
It just may be a limit for the particular VIA chipset on that board.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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A 1.2 GB AMD Tbird kicks the butt of a P4 1.5 GB intel, nuff said.
Nobody in there right mind would currently stick with Intel thinking they are the best processor.
As far as AMD's 3dnow and MMX there are far more games optimised to take advantage of 3dnow than there are MMX.
I hear Intel may have just made some drastic reductions in CPU prices, reason being of course more and more people have seen the light and buying a Tbird and Motherboard for less money than they can buy a higher rated P3 that actually runs slower !
Seriously my Tbird and Abit KT7-Raid cost less than i could have purchased an Intel CPU on its own.
I have run Intel cpu's all my life and thought long and hard before moving to AMD, the Athlon K7 was not enough to prise me away from Intel but these Thunderbirds just kick so much butt i had to have one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mason, excellent website, thanks!
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Cav,...never said that Intel was best. As a matter of fact, I really do not like Intel. I am stuck with Intel due to the many OS platforms I have to support. There are some slight differences in the instruction sets which keep me away from AMD. Not that most people would know it. They only show up in operating systems that make extensive use of the 32 bit instructions, which MS does not use that much of.
As far as the 3DNow vs MMX, good information to know about.
Actually Cav, the games themselves can only use a very small subset of either the MMX or 3DNow instructions. It is the video card drivers that would make the best use of either.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp. http://www.applink.net (http://www.applink.net)
skuzzy@applink.net
[This message has been edited by Skuzzy (edited 02-05-2001).]
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Hey Rip,
This websight has up-to-date prices on computer hardware. Take a look and maybe it can help!
www.anandtech.com (http://www.anandtech.com)
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I bought one of the early Athlon 700's (VIA133 chipset MB) about a year ago, for about half the cost of a comparable Intel chip, and it has been wonderful.
Not a single complaint, and its extremely stable at 800Mhz.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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on a 950 TBird with KT7 since awhile, runs great, both Windows & Linux
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Well I'm shopping hard right now and the big question here is do I spend the few extra bucks for Tbird, or go cheap & buy duron.
BTW, thanks for the pricewatch link. Might just be able to afford the Tbird Abit KT7 combo they list.
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hey guys !
i have a PIII 500 with a geforce card and pc100 mem. can i use any of the parts from this computer with one of those 1+ghz chips or do i have to get all new parts ?
RWY out !
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I'm sorry, but some of you are a little bit confused. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The AMD Athlon and Duron support the FULL MMX instruction set that was added with the Pentium 166. (In fact, they run MMX instructions FASTER than the P3 OR P4.) AMD processors DO NOT support the P3s SSE instruction set. This is not a big loss since hardly any software takes advantage of them anyway. The Athlon and Duron both have a FPU some 34% better than either the P3, Celeron, or P4! AH, being a DX game, will be faster on an Athlon system at the same clock speed than a P3.
The Athlons are also cheaper than the P3.
Honestly, IMO you would have to be either an Intel sales rep or seriously misguided to buy a new system right now with either a P3 or a P4. The Athlon: 1. Is faster. 2. Reaches higher clockspeeds. 3. Will continue to use the same socket for a little while longer. 4. Is less expensive. 5. Is highly overclockable. (I'm running Thunderbird 700@927Mhz.)
The P3: 1. Is finished, there will be no P3s released faster than 1.13 Ghz. (It's unlikely even this processor will be re-released.) 2. Is outdated. 3. Is more expensive. 4. Is slower. 5. Is non-upgradable above 1 Gig.
The p4: 1. Horribly expensive. 2. 1.2 Athlon is cheaper AND outperforms it in most tasks. 3. Is due for a process shrink to .13 micron and a socket change. (This means if you buy a P4 system you will not be able to upgrade it !!! This alone should convince you not to buy one.) 4. Takes Rambus RAM. (Shudder, chills. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) ) 5. Requires special MB, case, PS. 6. Generates gobs of heat. 7. Suffers from serious design flaws.
The only bright side to the P4 is it's new SSE2 instruction set. Even AMD is impressed enough with them to include them in their next processor. (Palomino is the code name for this one.)
In summary, if you buy an Intel system ... you have likely had a lobotomy and do not know it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As has been said many times before, the Athlon is better in ALL respects over the Intel processors. (Ok, there is one tiny little thing: Athlons do not have a thermal diode, which means you better not try to run them W/O a heatsink mounted. If you do they will burn up.)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Robert, I think the answer your looking for is going to be tied to your current motherboard. IF it's a socket A motherboard it should be compatable.
Consult your Motherboard manual to see what it is compatable with proc wise.
GeForce Video should work in whatever system you plug it into. Same with the PC100 ram, although 128 mb PC133 ram is looking very affordable right now.
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I agree on the AMD/Intel issue: Right now there is no reason whatsoever to stick with INTEL. And Skuzzy I think you should try AMD on one of your machines, I honestly dont think you will have trouble of any kind, except for the still missing Dual CPU option with AMD.
If I was to buy Mobo and CPU right now I would go for the 1000Mhz Athlon and I would choose this motherboard:
(http://www.asus.com.tw/products/Motherboard/socketa/a7m266/small.jpg) (http://www.asus.com.tw/products/Motherboard/socketa/a7m266/index.html)
It has not got Raid, but it has support for DDR RAM which I consider as more important. I have no doubt that DDR RAM will be the RAM type of the future.
If you are about to choose between DDR RAM support and RAID you should consider that You can allways add an IDE-RAID card later while DDR RAM support cant be added later.
Faster RAM should give some perfomance boost in programs like AcesHigh, while RAID gives improved harddisk performance which wont give you more FPS in games, but indeed would be good for servers or makes your life easier if you work with Photo/music/Video editing or similar Harddisk intensive activities.
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GrinBird
[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 02-06-2001).]
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http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/weekly_cpu/ (http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/weekly_cpu/)
This is THE link to check out current trends and what the lowest going prices are for AMD or Intel CPU's.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 02-06-2001).]
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I have the instruction set manuals and erratas for Intel and AMD processors.
There are some differences that Linux, for instance, worked around. The latest generation of compilers for Unix can generate code that will cause some errors when running on AMD. I have tried it and sure enough the return value when using certain math operations are different from Intel. These would, in all likelihood, never show up in a MS environment.
There are also 2 MMX instructions missing from the AMD code. These are emulated in software/firmware so they do not pose a non-operational problem. They are just slightly slower. They are also less likely to be used.
There are bugs in the Intel floating point code that are not present in the AMD code. Unfortunately, software that works around thse bugs cause problems with AMD. Again, if the software detects AMD versus Intel, it can be worked around.
Unfortunately, there are Unix's that do not detect AMD versus Intel and these particular operating systems have some problems with AMD. Linux has done a good job coding around the differences between the two companies processors.
Look guys, I am not saying AMD is bad, nor am I saying Intel is good. I am saying there are differences, however subtle, there are differences. All of them can be worked around and some OS's have done so. AMD has done a good job of documenting the differences so programmers could/can work around them.
Technology wise, AMD is by far and away a better processor. Intel has sat on thier technology way too long. The P4 is a joke and should have never seen a release day, in its current configuration.
I am very glad to see AMD finally making inroads into the OEM computer makers. This is really good for the market.
If my original post lead some to beleive I was recommending people stay away from AMD, then I apologize, for it was not my intent. AMD makes a good product which is technically superior to anything Intel has to offer, but if you have to run Solaris, or BSD, then you better be using Intel or you will have problems.
I think the only holdback AMD has ever had was the support chips for the processor. Intel does have an edge here as they have been building thier own support chips for a long time. VIA and AMD's recently released support chips have had some problems with maintaining compatibility with Intel support chips. The differences here have remained pretty subtle, but just enough to require changes to some drivers and BIOS code.
If it were just a simple matter of unplugging the Intel chip and putting in an AMD chip, I would be there in a heartbeat, but there is more to swapping from Intel to AMD than a single chip change.
I hope that helps to clear things up.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp. http://www.applink.net (http://www.applink.net)
skuzzy@applink.net
[This message has been edited by Skuzzy (edited 02-06-2001).]
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yepp, Skuzzy, there is the "I play only here, I want save, I'm willing to spend nights to make it work" environment which is normally @ home, so I'm also running AMD & KT7 rig here, it's just great walking the bleeding edge BUT then there is the "work, MUST work all the time, skin of your teeth will be shaved if something fails. Great, you saved us 200$ BUT now the system is DOWN" ;-) I wouldn't touch AMD with a 10-ft pole for the moment in serious business environment, it's more than "who's fastest and cheapest", it's the "who has support", "longest experience" and other boring crap decision process. Interesting enough that is true for many other things in technology, not processors only. Anybody worth his price in IT industry learned those lessons long time ago.
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FWIW, my dad has an ASUS P3V4X running a PIII 800 with no problem.
...this belongs a bit farther up.
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LuckyDay
"What're you going to do, bleed on me?"
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Originally posted by prz:
I wouldn't touch AMD with a 10-ft pole for the moment in serious business environment, it's more than "who's fastest and cheapest", it's the "who has support", "longest experience" and other boring crap decision process.
Yearh I guess we have all forgotten the olī calculation error scandal with the first Penthium processor...Costet a lot of problems for many of the old Intel customers. Not long ago Intel had huge problems with delivery, they simply couldent produce enuf CPUs for the world market.
Also all the problems connected with the Rambus RAM, boards being called back and all several times because problems with the new chipsets. There has been many of that kind of cases lately. AFAIK AMD havent had any of that kind of situations yet.
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GrinBird
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Grinbird, although I would like to say that AMD has had a perfect record in terms of releases, that is not the case. There are 3 things I can think of right off that AMD has had happen recently:
1. The new 760 chipset was released, then production stopped when errors were discovered.
2. The older 750 "Irongate" chipset had serious flaws that only allowed it to run AGP1x on all GeForce cards.
3. AMD processors (at least ones currently available) still do not have any type of internal thermal protection. This means if you don't have your heatsink and fan on correctly you will kill the processor.
Skuzzy: I looked at the errata sheets on the Athlon, and I guess you are right. The MMX issue doesn't seem to be any problem. (Even if it was MMX is hardly used anymore.)
The FPU seems to actually be Intel's screw-up. In a way, AMD is being punished for Intel's past mistakes. Regardless, the FPU on the Athlon is vastly superior to the P3 overall. In AH the Athlon will blow the P3 away. I don't know the exact amount, but I'd say that an Athlon system configured exactly to a P3 system will probably outperform it by at least 10% in AH at the same processor clock.
I guess it all comes down to whether you are building a gaming rig or a server. If you are building a gaming rig the Athlon is a much better processor. For a server (especially a dual processor rig) I'd probably be forced to say that Intel would be better there.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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I've been running an Athlon 700 on a Asus K7M mobo for about a year. No problems whatsoever. It was funny, because I built a system for my friend who is a "only Intel" person, and he got 600mhz for the same price as I got 700mhz. Before the Athlon, AMD did lag behind comparable Intel CPUs, but now I would say they have made up that ground. I've been an AMD person for a long time, and suffered through the K5, K6-2 and short-lived K6-III.
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I went and checked out a new computer store here recently (two days ago). They have great prices on Thunderbird boards, RAM and CPU's, not to mention video cards.
The tech that works there has a 1.2Ghz CPU running at near 1.8Ghz. His system has 19 cooling fans! I doubt I could afford that kind of rig, but he sold me on AMD for gaming.
They also had a hard drive swap out device there (hot swap) that allows you to change your boot drives, or any drive, in a flash! The device is really just a tray that the HD sits in, has two cooling fans, and the hardware to make the cable connection into a quick disconnect. So, what I did was...
I bought a new 40Gig HD and moved all of my 'other' software onto it. Nothing remained on the boot drive except Windows and AH. I defraged the system. Now the boot drive has 80% of the drive empty. I boot into AH without much of windows loaded, to save on resources, and AH is optimized to load as fast as possible. This is still on an AMD K6-2 450Mhz system with 128Megs of RAM. My frames jumped 10fps from the tower! I understand that adding more RAM will help on top of that!
Maybe I don't have to upgrade yet? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)