Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Widewing on October 28, 2003, 06:28:00 PM
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Last evening I was enjoying a sortie in the Ki-61, having forgotten how much fun this little fighter can be.
After a series of fights from A109 down to A126 (AKDesert map), I found myself near A126 low on ammo and only had about 30% of my fuel remaining. So, I decided to head back to A109 and land my kills before I burned too much fuel.
About 5 miles north of A126 I spot a squadie flying a Goon for the capture. I passed above him at 6k. Seconds later, I peek over my shoulder and spot an La-7 at 5.8k headed towards the Goon. Alerting my sqaudie, I quickly reverse and head down in an effort to cut off the La-7. Glancing at the ammo counter, I see that I have 27 rounds of MG ammo remaining. Cannon rounds were long since gone. What the hell I thought, I can harrass the La-7 if nothing else.
Unfortunately, the Kawasaki is too slow to help, the Goon gets clobbered. However, I have plenty of E now and I begin the chase of the now fleeing Lavochkin. I close to within 800 yards, not nearly close enough to shoot, much less do any damage with 27 rounds....
Then things changed for the better, the La-7 jocky decides to head towards A126 where a half-dozen Rooks are circling the capped field. I follow, the range having opened to about 1k. Picking out a P-51, the La-7 maneuvers to get a shot. The Mustang driver evades by turning hard right and the Lavochkin follows. This was my opportunity and I cut across their turn and drop in 400 yards behind the La-7. Pulling a little lead I fire the last of my MG ammunition.
Yikes! Just like that, the elevators flutter off and the Lavochkin floats down and explodes. 27 rounds! I can't begin to add up how many times I've poured a ton of lead into La-7s only to have them fly away as if nothing happened.
I suppose this serves to remind us that a few well or fortuitously placed hits are sufficient to kill anything (except it seems a Wildcat ,which makes the La-7 seem like a paper kite in comparison). Lucky shot? You bet, but it still counted. ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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Maybe he was allready damaged? But you are right wildcats are by far the toughest plane in AH...
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Not luck. You knew you had only a few rounds left and needed to get in a good shot to make them count. You did good.
I've found my shooting has improved along that line by not flying the big American planes. Having fewer rounds makes you take the extra time to get in tight and make it count.
And speaking of tough planes.....how 'bout that 109G10 eh? Dang thing is built like a battleship. No wonder you guys like it so much. All this time I thought they were made of aluminum and come to find they are made of hardened armor plate steel from Krupp.
Well, back to the front.
Salute
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Tougher than the IL2?
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if i remember right part of the La-7 is Balsa..........wtf do you expect its wood
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Besides P-38s, La-7s are the only fighter planes I've seen survive a MK108 hit.
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La-7 ranks as medium in my book. Sometimes real easy... other times somewhat difficult. The Yak-9U, on the other hand, IS one of the toughest planes in the arena. Of course, the P-47, F4u and F6F rank in the top 4.
MiniD
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I do know I've run into some of them surviving one or two snapshots by 152, and I was positive there was at least 1 108 among the hits on at least one of the snaps.
It's happened 5-6 times, and once only, I saw an apparent fuel leak; no way to find out if it was just a damage-less smoke or the real deal.
Either way, it's pretty unpredictable in my experience, as they react anyway from braking up quickly, to withstanding pretty heavy beatings [pic of russian running in snow like headless chicken in Pine Barrens episode] ; tho most likely they'd fall apart at the next damages.
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Well I remember almost a year ago I had a real nice frightening dogfight with some guys named Phyaeena or something like that. We had a dfight last over 5 minutes and more than once a raked his kite end over end with all the guns of my D9 the only thing I got was a smoking engine me thinking he was dead started my departure when I saw him turn back accelerate to me and get shot down.
Quickly after I saw him making a ditch saying he had run out of fuel :eek: :lol . Yup La7s can take damage
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Wierd you should mention this...
The other day I caught an LA7 in essentially the same conditions. I was flying a YAK9U and was down to 40 some odd rounds of ammo. Caught the LA7 looking the other way locked onto his 6 he spotted and went evasive but ran out of E. Had the shot, fired MGs and whack! Elevators came off and he fluttered to the Earth for the sudden stop at the end.
Is is something about the elevators I wonder?
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I've tested durability on fighters. Of all of the single engined fighters, differences in actual toughness(in terms of hits taken) are almost nil. The exception is the a6m2 which will burn easily, but can take signifcantly more hits before it goes down.
The twin-engined fighters like the p38 and 110 take more damage than the smaller fighters, at the expese of al arger planform.
All single-engine fighters have sickeningly weak tail sections(it only takes 5 .50 mg rounds to take the tail off of any of them). The mosquito is notable in that its the only fighter with a tail tough enough to take more than 5-6 .50 rounds.
The smaller planes(i.e.f4f) seem tougher because they can take as much damage as bigger planes(i.e. f4u/f6f), while being a smaller target.
Virtually all 'toughness' claims on these boards, and in game, are based purely on anecdotal evidence. Most planes can survive a 30mm hit to a non-critical point. 5-6 rounds from a .50MG to the right location will kill most fighters.
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i got a question, ive noticed when flying the 109s with gondolas the 20mms seem less powerful, takes much more hits to knock and enemy down for me, now ill take off the gondolas and just use the single 20mm and get kills much quicker, is there a difference in power from these guns? :confused:
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Originally posted by MaddDog
i got a question, ive noticed when flying the 109s with gondolas the 20mms seem less powerful, takes much more hits to knock and enemy down for me, now ill take off the gondolas and just use the single 20mm and get kills much quicker, is there a difference in power from these guns? :confused:
No but the gondolas will hurt your turning ability, making it tougher to track targets.
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I've read that most pilot preffered to be hit in the tail rather than any other part of the aircraft mainly because there wasn't anything vital back there except the control cables of course. BUt the density of that structure is so thin and small compared to the whole aircraft damage suffered would have been minimal.
Though II've read some accounts on P-47 high speed dive trials where pilots who exceeded the stress limit their tail section came off completely.
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La7 doesn't seem very rugged. Usually only takes a burst of the P-38's guns to take off a wing or tail section.
ack-ack
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As usual
"Plane Z is strong!”
“BS! Z is weak balsa plane!”
“STFU! Plane X is a tank!”
Etc
Image this
You are chasing F4U with Bf109G10 (30mm). You gain ONE 30mm hit to the F4U’s wing but no visual damage. WTF?! You are pulling a lead again but then suddenly, ~2 sec after the first hit, the F4U’s wing gets off. You would probably just thinking “How strange...” and forget it.
But
What if in same situation you could hit that wing 4-5 times in row until you SEE how the wing is getting off? You surely would think something like “Under modelled LW weapons, over modelled US planes, cheater, biased… mumble mumble …”
U catch my drift?
(edit typo)
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not really. more appreciable detail = more accurate estimation of damage.
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I have been reading a book by Stephen Counts that is a collection of fighter pilot stories from WWI - Vietnam. The other night I read about a P-47 pilot that was jumped by a 190 while on escort duty and was shot up really bad by 30mm and 20mm.
As he was spiralling down to earth he found out he couldn't get the canopy to open to try to bail out. Once he realized he was trapped in the plane, he somehow got it back under control enough to try to ditch it. Unfortunately he passed under another FW on the way. He was too badly shot up to manuver so he basically had to fly straight and level trust his cockpit armor and hope for the best. The FW saddled up a couple (maybe 3) times and shot the hell out of him (evidently out of cannon rounds). The P47 would not go down and kept flying! Finally the FW gave up gave him a wave and went home. The American pilot was able to return and land that plane at his base.
If I can remember I will have to scan the good parts of that story and post it, but sometimes these planes were really really tough even from dead astern.
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Originally posted by Widewing
....placed hits are sufficient to kill anything (except it seems a Wildcat ,which makes the La-7 seem like a paper kite in comparison). Lucky shot? You bet, but it still counted. ;)
My regards,
Widewing
Great story....it really highlights the difference in attitude that the killers amongst us sheep have...27 mg rds in a Ki IS out of ammo to me:). I'd guess you hit with almost all 27 rds...if you took the average 10% hit rate that would be 1/2 the clips worth of hits.
I quoted the passage above because its dead on...I got bounced by an F4 in CT night before last (in la-5)...survived the initial 2 passes and got e states about even...worked my way up over him during next couple minutes...engaged him in vertical obliques on 6 passes scoring hits on all 6 as we worked to deck...working throttle (and little bit of flaps to get nose over fast) to "tighten the noose" as we worked down to deck (over water). Committed on last pass to "plane form" shot...walked 20mm from front to back....again....only to have bear (F4 driver)...pull nose up into me and take me apart at 440 or so with 1 burst....was perfectly flown right up to moment I died:):)....obviously I left myself open at end...but I'd guess I hit that bird with 3-4 "hit sprites" worth of 20mm on every pass.
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Originally posted by Zanth
I have been reading a book by Stephen Counts that is a collection of fighter pilot stories from WWI - Vietnam. The other night I read about a P-47 pilot that was jumped by a 190 while on escort duty and was shot up really bad by 30mm and 20mm.
As he was spiralling down to earth he found out he couldn't get the canopy to open to try to bail out. Once he realized he was trapped in the plane, he somehow got it back under control enough to try to ditch it. Unfortunately he passed under another FW on the way. He was too badly shot up to manuver so he basically had to fly straight and level trust his cockpit armor and hope for the best. The FW saddled up a couple (maybe 3) times and shot the hell out of him (evidently out of cannon rounds). The P47 would not go down and kept flying! Finally the FW gave up gave him a wave and went home. The American pilot was able to return and land that plane at his base.
If I can remember I will have to scan the good parts of that story and post it, but sometimes these planes were really really tough even from dead astern.
Was Robert Johnson...he'd been reamed out by CO earlier for breaking formation so he stayed put while calling out the inbound attack...split-s'd after pass and Egan Meyer (sp?)...was guy in D-9 that bounced him...followed him (1 of top 190 aces).
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Originally posted by NOD2000
if i remember right part of the La-7 is Balsa..........wtf do you expect its wood
There was no balsa on an La7 it was plywood pine and birch laminated and bonded with resin. In fact the outer surfaces were smoothed with resin.
Thickness and number of ply differred at various parts of the AC.
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Zanth, that was R.S. Johnson's plane---his autobio goes into it in some detail---he had over 125 7mm holes on one side, they gave up counting after that, also had 20+ cannon holes in the plane--the 190 guy that used up the last of his ammo on him musta felt sorry for him, as he could see that the guy couldnt get out of the plane--he escorted him thru the ack on coast of France, (so they wouldnt fire), and waved as he left;
but getting back to LA7, if plane is so fediddlein dainty, WHY can this plywood plane endure 550 mph dives? mutter...mutter
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Originally posted by Innominate
All single-engine fighters have sickeningly weak tail sections(it only takes 5 .50 mg rounds to take the tail off of any of them). The mosquito is notable in that its the only fighter with a tail tough enough to take more than 5-6 .50 rounds.
5 .50 rounds?! That's completely preposterous!
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bj229r
The planes in Il2FB loose parts much quicker at high speed (dives for ex.), including those that seem very solid in AH.
The AH 110G looses elevators when you just touch 500mph, so I would guess if we had a more detailed aerodynamic damage, like FB or not, the picture of our planeset's behavior in high speed stress would probably be very different.
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Widewing. Did you get credit for the kill?
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Bj229, if I remember it correctly, it was Johnson's meeting with Egon Meyer, who was in a Fw190A with the cannons already dry. He pelted the P-47 with only MG17 rounds - all the cannon rounds were received prior to the engagement where Johnson's P-47 was already hit by other enemies, and he was heading home alone... when he met the LW ace Egon Meyer.
Meyer, in disbilief, after emptying all his 7.7mm rounds into the P-47, flew next to Johnson and saluted him.
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Possible pilot kill?
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the 190 guy that used up the last of his ammo on him musta felt sorry for him, as he could see that the guy couldnt get out of the plane--he escorted him thru the ack on coast of France, (so they wouldnt fire), and waved as he left
Makes me cry...
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Yup, Kweassa thats it-- he had been *****ed out previous mission for breaking formation--this time he stayed tight and got waxed--I have the book laying around here, i'll have to go and read it agin, VERY good reading
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Never found the La7 stronger in any regards compared to majority of fighters. Like the La5 seems pretty easy to take off a wing or tail with a short burst and that's with four 50's.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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Originally posted by Mini D
La-7 ranks as medium in my book. Sometimes real easy... other times somewhat difficult. The Yak-9U, on the other hand, IS one of the toughest planes in the arena. Of course, the P-47, F4u and F6F rank in the top 4.
MiniD
You're joking right? The Yak-9U even smells a bullet nearby and the radiator springs a leak. Thirty seconds is then about all ya got 'till the engine seizes.
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The only problems with these planes are that they are to small.
They are freakin hard to hit.
:eek:
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I fly B17 about as much as fighter...i get a different perspective on the damge thing---most planes pop with a few hit sprites, save the 190 and F4u--have NO idea what thats about---they keep coming and coming like Eveready bunny;
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The damage model has a lot to be desired. Hopefully ah2 will make things more realistic.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
The only problems with these planes are that they are to small.
They are freakin hard to hit.
I tend to agree, small aircraft in AH, by the nature of being tougher to hit, tend to get a bit of a reputation as being "tougher". The Yak is a good example, it doesn't really take damage well (rad goes immediately) but because of the small size it can be very difficult to land hits on.
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In AH you can kill b17 with 1 .303. Extremely unlikely, but can happen.
In your case I think you got him at your ki guns convergence distance. 2 .50s at conv can do quite a dammage in AH.