Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on October 29, 2003, 06:49:42 PM
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as they are buffs are not a threat in the MA.
they need better gun convergence system ai gunners or a instantly ready bombsite
maybe make it an option for the buffs. we already know that jabos can prok fuel ad nauseum and hangars only stay down 15 minutes.
i watched a raid by bishops consisiting of almost 150 b17s hit hq and only one plane hit ti and they hit it by divebombingthe damn thing.
the reason they all missed is because they were covered in fighters trying to defend themselves and couldnt take a 2 minute break to calibrate.
so keep the current bombsite as an option and the old bombsite as an option as well.
because i would like to see more buffs in the MA.
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better yet make it somthing that can be automatic. on the bomb run is no place to be defenseless unless your milkrunning or at 30k.
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further thought...
compromise:
old version bombsite with no zoom capability
new version bombsite with full zoom capability.
then you get the high alt guys who will take the added difficulty of the zoom norden so they can fly high and bomb...
and youhave the buffs that fly lower with nonzoom instant accuracy bombsight that can be ready immediately to drop on target because those buffs at med to low alt dont have time to kill fighters and do complex bomb calculations.
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nooooooo
this bomsite is fine...
no lazer bomers needed..
and if they want protection as you pionted out on tht Bish HQ raid...they can get gunners onboard so they can do there drop...
complex bom calculations???
wtf are u doing in tht thing?
so holding a markpoint for a min of 3 seconds complex?
wow fester..i am somewhat amzed u writing this..
i knwo u have said same thing before...
but i just wanted to give the other side of the coin...
Btw..tht bish raid was so frikn wak..there formations were liek blind monkys flyin.....
if they learned how to fly toghetr in formation bettr they could worry less on getn piked apart
but i welcoem many more raids like that:)
Love
BiGB
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gunners are useless
i think if the accurately modelled bombsite is kept the buffs need ai gunners
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No way Fester! What are you thinking :D
The whole reason for the Me163 is because one guy who knows what he's doing can drop the HQ. A whole patch was released just to make it more difficult. :lol
The bombsite isn't the problem in the case you mentioned, if the leader had known what he was doing, enough bombs would have hit to flatten any HQ, no offense to whoever was leading the mission.
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I always tended to think of the heavy bombers, the bombsight bombers, to be the weakest aspect of AH...unfortunately. Not considering the "flight model" applied to GVs of course, hehe...
But it never had to do with the way the bombsight or bomb dispertion worked (I prefered the current more manly method anyway, the one requiring time and effort). It had to do with the way ballistics lethality is so powerful. Anytime a P51D could disable three B17s in a single aft to forward pass, something is seriosuly out of kilter. But I understand.....it a game issue.
I guess moving back to the old bombing method is an viable alternative to the weakest aspect in the game but in my opinion it wouldnt be a fix.
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Instead of calibrating just make the settings where they can be dialed in.
TAS = 250
AGL = 17000
Hit a button to lock it in
Any roll/pitch/yaw or speed adjustments "unlock" your settings.
You could add more stuff like in il2 were you dial in your settings then “mark” your target but that’s not really necessary.
Currently it’s the "calibrating" part that sucks.
Give the bombers Otto at least while they are in the sight.
You will still need to take a minute to get the settings dialed in accurately and you wont be able to maneuver too much while on a run.
Add a couple of "formation settings"
1 - wide
2 - close
or a .setform XXXX yards.
Wide for travel, tight for the bomb run. They are close now and easily killed.
I suspect you have more important stuff going on but if you every review the current bomber system please considers my suggestion.
I think the current system is a great improvement over the old system but its more "work" then fun. We all want to have "fun" even the bomber folk.
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I am the only person on the planet that can consistently bomb the crap out of any base I want to? I can shut down a small base with a B26 raid.....and mediums are a BREEZE in the B17....the large bases are more problematic for ONE LONE BOMBER PILOT but it can be done with a Lanc if you practice and dont get torn up by fighters in your blind spots.....which I why I love the b17:D
Please explain why buffing should require no skill unlike fighters or jabo? The only thing I cant do now in a buff that I could befor is pinpoint GV elimination from 15k....which was pretty stupid anyway.
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Auto tailgunner while in calibration mode would be a good comprimize. A zoom would be good too.
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the old bombsite was fun
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I thought Fester you were original for! to remove fluffers from flying at 30K feet and using laser point accuracy to take out the fuel or radar at a field?
Though, I have been against the addon for the buffers, because it has taken away the fun it USED to be for using b17 and lancasters. Now i resort to dive bombing cv's in lancasters, Dive bombing field in lancasters, dive bombing hq in a lancaster.
Darn it has all been dive bombing in lancasters or bombers because its more fun and more accurate than using the bomb sight.
But there has been at great length of discussions about puting the speed of your buff inside the bomb sight. This would greatly increase accuracy because pilots can ajust there speed depending on what speed they calibrated.
F6Bomber " Its easyer to dive bomb bombers than use the bomb sight""
Hitech " Mabe the bomb bay doors are creating drag when you calibrate "
F6Bomber "Mabe but its more accurate to dive bomb!"
This is before hitech found out there was a problem with his code with the bomb sight not calculating the drag from the bomb bay doors correctly.
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No way.
The calibrating is fine, the only real problem is having to stay at the bombardier's position to drop it manually - this makes you have to switch continuously between the bombardier's seat and the gunner positions, which makes it difficult and dangerous for buff pilots.
From what I remember the Norden sites automatically dropped their bombs after calibration - there were two 'markers' that were set by calibrating the sight, where the bombardier would first 'mark' the visible target via the bomb sight, and then set the second 'mark' by calibrating the alt, speed and drift.
As the buff draws closer to the target the two 'markers' would gradually come close together, and when they were aligned the bomb was released.
Now, I don't think we need all that gadgets in AH buffs, but I think we do need the system which drops bombs automatically according to calibration - so, in a bomb run, the bombardier can set the sites, calibrate, and then jump back to defensive position - as long as the buff holds a steady heading and speed, the bombs will then drop automatically.
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i can' t imagine a bigger step backwards then introducing otto to AH. the whole beauty of this game is that u fight vs real ppl, u can surprise them, u can fool them, u can try to figure out their actions. otto spoils that. do whatever u want to the bombsight but keep the otto out of this game...
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tell the mission planners to include escorts.
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wow...
First Fester..I will DA anytiem with u ...B-17s vs what ever u want...
I will kill u ...u may kill me...but i guarentee it wont be a "milk run " for u..
yes there are many people who cannot gun very well in buffs...i guess ittakes practice..
Alf..trust me..ur not the only "super Bomer pilot"lolo:)...
i find very easy to pinpoint from any alt..Im a abig fan of 30k HQ and barraks killn
...fester u are funny too...."the old bomsight was fun"...
ur just stik stirrn now...
move on people..nothing to see
only 1 more thing HTC should change....PLEASE INDICATE WHAT AIRSPEED WE Calibrated at... then i would be %100 accuracy:)
only 1 more thing ..heheh...
PARTY BUS PARTY BUSS...dam i wish we had Multi gunned B-17s...
btw..HELL NO on AI Gunners.....Ask a friend to gun if u have any:)
Love
BiGB
xoxo
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lolol moot..fester posts this after a bish raid of about 27+ b-17s at our Knight HQ...
they had no escorts...all spread out...crappy formations..
they got attked by m3 163s - and a coupel 262s' ...was dam fun..escorts would of lowered my kills of buffs..lolo
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I'm sorry, but I don't know if I understood what you meant to say.
Either way, this is another example of players not having the spine to actually organize enough to create proper strike forces, and then blaming/asking HTC for gameplay that's better suited to them (ie everything automated for them). That may work, but they can only do so much with limited cooperation by the players.
I don't like dorky reenactments, and maybe this sounds like asking for that kind of effort, but it's really not. Just need to have some common sense when planning strategic movements.
I think it'd be better to simply let the escorts do their job, and the bombers theirs. Escorts take care of escorting, gunners gunning, bombers bombing.
Of course if you have escorts missing, you have to use makeshift solutions, and the "wwii simulation" goes out the window. No surprise.
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The current bombsight is ideal for an MA based on large strat targets. In our MA however, every target worth bombing is a point target. (Excepting strat targets for bomber score)
The only targets in the MA worth using bombers to kill is the HQ, and CV's.
Make strat more important, bigger than it is, move HQ's into a more standard strat design(rather than a single building), and leave the bombsight the way it is.
Or modify the bombsight to auto-calibrate over a period of say, 10 seconds of straight and level flight. Keep the current restrictions on calibration(i.e. holding a speed and course long enough to calibrate) but automate it.
As the MA is, anything a bomber can do, can be achieved faster and more accuratly with a suicide jabo.(Excepting CV's and HQs)
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Originally posted by zmeg
Auto tailgunner while in calibration mode would be a good comprimize. A zoom would be good too.
OH GOOD LORD NO as if they aint a damn death star now LOL.
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Originally posted by Citabria
...because i would like to see more buffs in the MA.
So, you just want more easy targets to shoot down...
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Old bombsite with solo buff.
New bombsite with formation of buffs.
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Escorts or not Buffs are easy targets in a 262 and especially the 163. Unless the jet pilot is foolish enough to let a prop plane gain enough E or position for a shot.
Really isn't much they can do once the jets are in the air and upto speed. Unfortunetly for mission planners that only takes a couple mins in the 163.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
Originally posted by BGBMAW
lolol moot..fester posts this after a bish raid of about 27+ b-17s at our Knight HQ...
they had no escorts...all spread out...crappy formations..
they got attked by m3 163s - and a coupel 262s' ...was dam fun..escorts would of lowered my kills of buffs..lolo
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i agree with fester. the buff ceiling has dropped greatly to the detriment of gameplay in my opinion. whether or not accurate bombing can be done isn't the issue. it's not being done as frequently as it used to be.
i say bring back the old bombsite and scrap the current one.
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No way. Keep the current bombsight, just make the damned thing better. It needs some additions
1. Current Airspeed
2. Current heading
3. some hash-marks and a set angle indicator.
Getting the bombsight calibrated is not a hard thing to do. The fact of the matter is, too many gamers don't have a fugging clue about how to do it, or when to do it. AH has far too many automatic and easy mode things in it now, we don't need more again.
Get a buddy you can trust (you know he can shoot) to be your gunner. RL B17s had a crew of 10. I don't think asking for a crew of 2 (1 pilot, 1 gunner) is asking for too much.
You can calibrate your bombsite at almost any time you want. All you have to do is be at the same altitude and speed again when you drop.
I've dropped speed to 175 level at 15K and calibrated the sight as far away as 30 miles, then gone back to full speed to head into target. Just drop speed back to 175 and be at 15K when you want to drop, and the bombsight calibration is still valid.
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The bombers got groups of three buffs, and the tradeoff was a tougher calibration system. So now along with three times the bomb payload and three times the defensive firepower, you'd also like laser pinpoint accuracy?
It would ruin the game for a lot of people. With the current system, players make a tradeoff between relative safety and accuracy; the higher they go, the less likely they are to be molested by fighters but the less accurate their bomb drop despite calibration. This is the way it should be IMO.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
lolol moot..fester posts this after a bish raid of about 27+ b-17s at our Knight HQ...
Why am I not surprised at this? ;)
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Yeah, the new system is a fun, but could use a little improvement. Definitely an indication of current speed in the bombadeer position! That said, I also like the old system of bombing, and if you removed the ability to zoom with the old system, you'd limit the alt of bombers. I played AH for 6 months before realizing there was a zoom key (yeah, I'm retarded :)), and hitting hangars (and dropping them with the minimum poundage needed) from 10k up was about 80-90%...any higher than that and you weren't hitting squat.
That Bish raid was a bad example. If they wanted to down HQ, they could have halved the amount of bombers and had each pilot take a gunner.
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If you've looked at AH2, you know the Airfield towns are the size of Cities and suicide jabo runs won't be the best way to drop them. Not saying those towns will be in the final product but if they are, then bombers and A-20 jabos become the only efficent way to deal with them.
Originally posted by Midnight
No way. Keep the current bombsight, just make the damned thing better. It needs some additions
2. Current heading
3. some hash-marks and a set angle indicator.
I like these two but only because they would make it easier in the Special events when they turn off outside views.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
... With the current system, players make a tradeoff between relative safety and accuracy; the higher they go, the less likely they are to be molested by fighters but the less accurate their bomb drop despite calibration. This is the way it should be IMO.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Actually, the higher you go, the wider your bomb spread on strat targets like Cities and the more damage you do.
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Look, people, it's simple.
Bombing takes skill.
Fighting takes skill.
You want bombing to be something a 2 week newbie with a gunner can do with utmost pinpoint accuracy?
You are stupid.
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Originally posted by Easyscor
Actually, the higher you go, the wider your bomb spread on strat targets like Cities and the more damage you do.
That's fine, but moving to a laser bombsite means that buffs will become the primary anti-field weapon. Combine that with three times the defensive firepower, instantaneous laser pinpoint accuracy against single field targets, and three times the bomb payload, and you have a recipe for disaster.
Mainly here I'm referring to anti-field rather than anti-strat bombing. The current system removes bombers as truly effective high or medium altitude threats against fields. The higher you go, the wider the spread and the less likely enough bombs impact on hardened targets to do any real damage.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The MA shows that the current bombing system is too hard for the average AH'r.
Bombing went from a beginner skill to an advanced skill.
A happy medium imo, would be:
'Click target on Map'. Automated bombsite. Accuracy dependant on ability to hold constant speed, alt, and direction for a period of time.
Do alot of manuevering and your bombsite will be off. Fly a steady course from IP and you will have an accurate drop.
Bring back the casual Buff pilots to AH.
*edit.. and please model realistic drop parameters. I may be wrong, but I bet a lanc or B17 couldn't dive bomb.
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There is a reason they allow you a gunner. I like the old bomb sight, but with formations, laser bombs would be too much. Why not the old sight for single bombers and calibration for formations?
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Bombing is a lot of fun the way it is now. Just gotta learn how to do it. My vote (fwiw) is leave it alone.
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I ike your idea, Fester...old bombsight, no zoom
I like bombing, and Im ok with the new bombsite...though I have evenings I cant hit a thing.
But I am really weary of seeing bombing formations that are simply trying to beat the system by acting as big jabos...dive, drop, die...repeat. Or, fly on the deck, drop, die, repeat.
I'd much rather see them bomber folks actually making an effort to get to alt, defend themselves and drop
Make it an option..real site, formation....easy site, no formation. I just think you're giving too much away if you give an easy site AND the bombload of 3 buffs.
Heck, if I have a chance of hitting what Im bombing, I might just use the Arado some more.
Good idea, fair compromise. Might eliminate some of the lame suicide jabos we're seeing.
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I think I only flew the b26/17 or lancaster 3 or 4 times since the bombsite change, its to boring to climb to 20k miss the target and get shot down.
much easyer and fun to jabo with a couple of guys, mess up a field and get 3 kills. you also have a fair chance to go back in 1 piece.
dont know about others but the only boomers i take these days is the stuka trying to get a cruiser or a cv :).
I want the old stuff back too, but not that easy that is was then.
just modified to be harder to hit or 2 boomers in formation.
or the new bombsite with more boomers in formation I dont know ?
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Howabout approaching the "buffs are boring" problem through the maps???
-Make "buffs only" bases at higher elevations with heavy ack
or
-Allow buffs "GV like" spawn points with air start at 10k
Also the bomb blast effect would be nice damage wise. Now we can see far too many near misses which have no effect at all.. even against light GV:s
On the other hand the problem of dive bombing Lanc formations and suicide formation on the deck should also be approached in some way.
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The current bombsight is as good as the old laser guided bombsight at altitudes up to 25K if you're good but above 25K the bomb spread will occasionally leave a hanger up unless you're willing to overkill it with extra bombs. The biggest reasons not to climb above 20K when attacking airfields is the added time it takes to turn around for another good run over the target and it's more exciting to drop with bandits around. Even calibrating while fighting off an attack is possible and adds to the fun.
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One more important thing!!!
-Make the buffs necessary! Make their damage count so that a small bunch of jabos cannot replace them so easily.
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why not have the "laser" sight included but with fairly reduced accuracy...for fairly usable accuracy you would have to spend the 1 minute required (wich is nothing considering the amount of time put into just straight flying thats done in the missions) setting it up...or you could just spend a couple hours offline learning how to use the flipping thing with fairly good accuracy...
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While the thoughts on improving the bomb sight are interesting, I would prefer the single bomber old sight, mulit bomber new sight routine.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
From what I remember the Norden sites automatically dropped their bombs after calibration - there were two 'markers' that were set by calibrating the sight, where the bombardier would first 'mark' the visible target via the bomb sight, and then set the second 'mark' by calibrating the alt, speed and drift.
As the buff draws closer to the target the two 'markers' would gradually come close together, and when they were aligned the bomb was released.
Sort of a dumb "AI" bombardier would release the bombs based on the calibration and release point(s) you programed in. This sounds interesting, closer to realism, and allows you to jump to your own guns.
I bet it would work.
Maybe not too hard for HTC to figure out either.
added later:
You would need a display of current speed and next to (or under it )calibrated speed to see that you are maintaining your calibrated settigns
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Originally posted by TW9
Current bombsite comes w/ drones..
Old bombsite comes w/ no drones..
Thats how i'd like to see it done..
Thank you...I agree completely
This encourages folks to try bombers, and if they can handle the harder sight, take more bombers.
EDIT: The training room only has the easy sight...perhaps change that for folks to practice bombing with others?
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Whats the problem with the newer bombsight? Take the time to learn how to calibrate it, and you will be amazed at how accurate your drops become. I can practically kill cv and ca with eyes closed!!! As for HQ, practice makes perfect. It only takes one flight to hit the mark. I spent a few hours in the TA and came up with a calibration method that is very accurate. I have shared this with some of my squaddies who like it so much, that they don't want me to share it with anyone else! If it is made too easy, where's the challenge?
Keep this bombsight... make people learn how to use it...
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I saw that mission and it had about 48 buffs in it. It started to straggle from the beginning and started too close to HQ to really have the time to form up before they ran into enemy jets. There were only 2-3 fighters that tried to help it out but none were jets.
I got frustrated and went down and strafed a tower down and got nailed by a jet trying to clear out. I was in a 109.
It seemed strange to me that 5-10 enemy jets could decimate that many buffs before they got to target. Since the inception of formations the defense ability of the buff seems to have gone down. One plane taking out three buffs on one pass ?
Maybe it would help if there was a gunner allowed for each plane in the formation.
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Originally posted by Citabria
as they are buffs are not a threat in the MA.
they need better gun convergence system ai gunners or a instantly ready bombsite
I think ai gunners would be a bonus provided they had reactions somewhat lesser than an manned gun.
re using a precision bomb sight instead of the calibrated bomb sight in the MA?
I think the bug bear with the calibrated gun sight is the need to maintain air speed. As we do not have separate pilot and bomb aimer then we ask our bomb aimer to do two jobs (aim and control air speed) that he would not have done.
I would prefer the height and air speed locked under auto control when entering f6 (assume that an ai pilot has taken over these two functions instead of only height)
Then calibration is set in the same way.
The ai guns compensate for the practice of interceptors waiting until the pilot goes to the bomb sight before attacking. Their ability to lead aim an incoming interceptor should be heavily damped.
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Lets think how much time does it takes to learn being fighter pilot:
[list=1]
- take off, landing
- basic aerobatics - loops, rolls, wingover etc...
- 1 vs 1 - merge
- 1 vs 1 - energy managment
- 1 vs 1 - energy fight tactics, ACMs
- 1 vs 1 - turnfight tactics, ACMs
- 1 vs 1 - plane difference - know your enemy - speed, climb ratio, acceleration, turn capabilities, firepower, copression seed etc.
- Gunnery, deflection shoots how to make the work done
- Dive bombing - different stiles aiming.
- 2 vs 1 - coaperation with your wingman at energy fight and turn fight
- Many vs Many different merges, many players tactics
- coaperation of fighters and strike force - dive and level bombers
- A lot of other things - classified :D
Ok lets see what we need to be bomber pilot:
[list=1]
- takeoff, landings
- Navigation how to get best to your target at stright level and stright speed from less dangerous position
- Calibrating your bomb site WOW
- Best bomb usage - salvo, delay
- Gunnery - defection shoting.
- Many bomber formation defence tactics
- Missed something???
So is it so hard for new pilot to be bomber pilot or maybe fighter pilot :lol
Give me a favor if you do not know to calibrate your site READ MANUAL and train, you killed when calibrating? Pic up gunner or take an escort ;).
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Couple of points regarding level bombing. Speed is critical, even 5 mph difference between calibration and dropping can throw you way off. Get your speed very stable before even thinking about calibration. I'm still working on how to be accurate with a damaged plane, especially engine damage. If you get hit on your run you may as well go around, try to find a speed you can stabilize and try again.
Another important consideration is salvo and delay. I'm not willing to share what works for me :p but suffice it to say the right combination can make all the difference.
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How about having bombsight window available while in gunner position.
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A lone B17 with a good gunner can take an average of 4 fighters down before he gets downed. Prolly closer to 10 if he flies 30k and manouvers.
If B17's would have been that leathal in real life, luftwaffe would have run out of planes and pilots in the first 2 weeks of the war and no escorts would ever be needed.
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Part of the problem is that the strats are practically meaningless. If there were a HQ for every zone or some real heavy strat targets to hit, the buffs would be the primary reasons for fighters leaving the ground, as was the case in WW2.
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I think the bug bear with the calibrated gun sight is the need to maintain air speed. As we do not have separate pilot and bomb aimer then we ask our bomb aimer to do two jobs (aim and control air speed) that he would not have done.
A good point, Tilt.
But frankly, settling speed and locking height, is no big deal. Compared to the complicated and sensitive gadgets the real bombardiers needed to use, the AH "Norden" is a really dumbed down, simple-to-use system. The accuracy of good calibrating is really, child's play.
As you pointed out, the settling of stable speed and course, is what makes the difference. When people miss the drop, I can bet it's 99 times out of 100 that the changing speed was the problem, and not the calibration process.
But let's sit down and think about it.
The calibration itself is already very easy. The only crucial part which makes the difference between competent bombers and incompetant ones in AH, is his judgement.
1. A good bomber pilot plans his course well. He seeks to gain ideal altitude, judged by his own experience - so it offers the best compromise between safety and accuracy.
2. A good bomber pilot, with his well planned course, prepares for the drop way before reaching target. He goes into a steady bombrun which lasts for 5~6 miles. He keeps his speed still, and he also keeps his plane movement to the minimum, only changing course very slightly and slowly when he deems it is absolutely neccessary, in order to hit the target.
3. A good bomber pilot, with his well planned course, who entered a good bomb run, rarely even meets any enemies while the bomb drop. He contantly asks questions about enemy activity over target. He changes course and altitude, bombrun length, and all the critical things that needs to be adjusted BEFORE he is ready to drop bombs. If he has good friends, he asks for escort.
4. A good bomber pilot, with his well planned course, who entered a good bomb run, who dropped bombs successfully on target, heads out of trouble immediately, and lands successfully.
...
Now, WHY! do people think bombing is too hard? That's because they do none of the four conditions described above.
1. They plan miserable courses. They have no patience. All they do is get up and head straight towards enemy field, CV, etc. During their obvious bomber sortie, they either misjudge the safe alt needed, or misjudge the accuracy they can expect, or do both.
2. Since they either planned the wrong course, or don't have a planned course at all, naturally, they run into enemy fighters swarming upon them every corner. He gets real busy in the gunners position, and for his own safety's sake, flies at full speed. When the time draws near that they must go into bomb run, they find that they can't steady the plane's speed or course, and have to do hasty calibration.
3. Since he never bothered to ask about enemy activity, even when the calibration is finished, he is harassed by enemy fighters again and again. He may get damaged, may wiggle the plane, or at least someting happens to him that ruins his already-flimsy calibration.
4. And with the miserable drop that misses, he swears and cusses about how the calibration system sucks, and soon gets blown apart by vengeful enemies, and thinks to himself "gee, what a waste of time. Who made this stupid system anyway?".. Not for once thinking about what he did wrong.
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Frankly, the point-and-click bombsight they ask they want back, is on demand from most usually people who rarely have any experience in any type of bombers.
What they want is something, anything, that can save them the trouble of doing all the critical things needed to do, which is what really makes the difference between a lousy buff pilot and a good buff pilot - and they still expect good accuracy despite it all!!.
Simply put, they want to wiggle around at 25k, outmaneuver fighters that are running out of breath at super high alts, shoot them all down, and then turn on a dime, point, click, and earn bomber scores, too.
Since all the wiggling around will ruin calibration, they want the calibration process dumbed down even more, so they don't need any critical bomb runs, but can settle down, calibrate, and just instantly fiddle with the throttle lever so the speed momentarily matches the initial speed at calibration. Or, they want to do away with it completely.
It never, ever occurs to them that they can't have their cake and eat it too(or was this backwards?). If they want to do bombing, then they have to plan, ask questions, keep the situation in mind, prepare for the drop.
The gunner positions, for a good buff pilot, is nothing more than a desperate emergency measure - if fighters are swarming around, no matter how accurate a gunner he is, he is going down. At least, if he wants to really succeed in the primary goal of bombing something, unless he is one of 'em kamikaze dweebs, his ideal should be to never for once, jump to the gunners position at all - instead of expecting to shoot down everything and still succeed in bombing without a proper bomb run.
..
I'm sorry to say this, but the dumb-down changes in calibration they want, is a lazy man's excuse. Some features suggested, like the auto drop according to calibration, could be implemented to help take care of unnecessary risks(which is also, more realistic system resembling the Nordens) - but anything else that suggests to make the bombing more easier, is a plain fluke.
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Kweassa people only have a small amout of time in the MA, most dont have the time to learn the new bomb sight. But you will see more people use this method bellow than using buffs anymore.
Now here is my list of other methods you can use instead of using a buff.
JABOS!!!
Up a typoon, rockets, and 25% fuel.
Fly towards the field
Hit Fuel
Hit Ack
Hit barracks
with little or no skill needed, just keep re-uping until you achieve the desired effect. Add more fighters for killing the fh.
My point being, that people have just made it worse for themselves because by adding in a complex bomb sight. People have just taken to the 2nd most accurate way of hiting targets. The useage of fighters.
BTW the layout of the fields are for the old bomb sight. The new bomb sight cannot hit the targets because, they are too spaced apart.
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F1Bomber,
If you don't have time to fly bombers then they're not for you. First because bombers require patience and planning as Kweassa said and second, why should it be any easier for you to be a great bomber pilot without spending the same amount of time in bombers as the top fighter pilots spend in fighters? More and more people are flying bombers and some of them will take the time to learn the ropes and get very very good.
WhiteHawk,
Check out the new towns in AH2, it will be very hard to capture bases without bombers. It isn't exactly what we had in mind when we asked for better targets and a more important role for bombers is it.:D
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Easyscor nailed it on the head. What you're practically saying is the same thing as this:
"Hey, I don't got no time to grab alt to learn this Bore and Zoom stuff in these dinky P-51s. I wanna grab my P-51 and go instantly kill something, and learning this SA and ACM shi* takes up my time. Please dumb the FM down for me."
..
Flying buffs is a risky business that takes a long time and effort which is many times thankless. If you don't have enough time to learn the proper way of flying bombers, then that's really too bad. Because that's just how the buffs are.
If you really want to buff something, without having to do the things needed to do - you can always do that kamikaze stuff the usual MA dorks do, running into CV wth B17s and stuff.
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just saying that a good typoon pilot can more damage over time than a b17 can do. And in the end thats what really matters doesnt it?
Damage = Denying the enemy services like troops, fuel, air craft, ammo.
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just saying that a good typoon pilot can more damage over time than a b17 can do. And in the end thats what really matters doesnt it?
Exactly.
That's why there are more jabos than bombers.
Unfortunately, that doesn't mean we need to make buffing a kiddie's game again to see more people loving bombers. Some suggestions are progressive, but others are retro.
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mabe you need to make it a kiddies game of aiming again to see more people in buffs. Or change the field layout to support carpet bombing for buffs.
Only problem both solutions would have the same direct result. Except that one solution would have much greater number of people using the bombers like the old days, compaired to changing the layout of the fields.
Though, people care less about skill and want to get the job done with the less hassel. I understand that, and this is why that most people dont use buffs anymore. They are un-friendly and dont do the job that a jabo can do. A B17 formation is weak even if you have drones, you can loss all of them in 1 fighter pass.
But talking about this wont do s**** hitech holds all the cards. I have seen many good points but nothink will be done because aces high is a dieing product. The only way to change things, is to support aces high 2. Hitech knows this, and he wont bring out anymore updates for aces high.
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if it's too hard for the brain to do both pilot and use the bomb sight, then you either need some extra neurons or maybe just add a dedicated join slot for the bombsight position.
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boming is fine..and it is bettr then a jabo can do and faster..
u carry more ord..can spend tiem over targte area boming pinpoint targets at will..... vh poppinh up..dead..town popping up dead....barrkas need killingh north of base u are taking,,dead...
but anyways..funny how 18-24 year olds can operate a REAL norden site...and soem of u lemmings cant even master an AH boming site..
bwwahahahhahahahahahahahah
Love
BiGB
xoxoxo
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
but anyways..funny how 18-24 year olds can operate a REAL norden site...and soem of u lemmings cant even master an AH boming site.
What I find funy is how bad your writting in your native language is. :rolleyes:
What I would like is some indication of my calibration.
Right now the best I can do is pray I did well.
How is that encouraging people to learn?
There is no way of knowing what you did wrong.
Which leads to frustration, which does no help beginners.
I would love to learn the bombsight, but it is just too damn frustrating too be fun right now.
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My Point exactly!!!
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It made 63 before it got off track fester.:D
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64 now.
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Ok is it fun to be shut down when you new in AH - you up shut down - up shut down - up to you start learning ACMs, tactics gunnery etc... Flying fighter planes is not easy at all!!! Even more it is much harder then flying buff.... So what is the problem to read manual of to ask someone in AH that can explain you bombsite clibratrion?
Give me a favor - it is not so hard - and I tell you when you coming and starting clibrate your site and then prepearing to drop bomb it is excelent feeling. Not just see and drop MK-84L. with perfect aiming there no LISER site systerms in WW2 - and later conflicts too. Norden is excelent bombsite that was used yeard after WW2. So just learn a little.
The only thing I really liked to see your air speed in your Norden mode to be able to control it more easyly.
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It's really no excuse as long as there are people who are doing it. If everybody was bad in a buff, and everybody was complaining I would understand..
But as long as an average grade pilot like me can pick off single GVs with 5~6k level bombing, single ships at 10k, and single hangars at 15k, it's really either I'm a buffing genious, or somebody is not trying.
And I definately do not think I'm an exceptional buff pilot.
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Golly-geeit you dolts......
how about this..SET your Speed at 200...100 ---150 180...what ever!!!!!!
frikn fly an hour and figure out how you can maintain 200.....you are a godam lemming if you cant figure it out,,
if you learn how to maintain your speed..calibration is easy...if you want lessons..i will teach you...
godam eay...
whaaa fester whaa
Love
BiGB
PS spelling is for secrataries...if you cant understand it ..move on...but you obviously can..
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Anyone seen the matrix 3 yet?
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do they calibrate in it?
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
Golly-geeit you dolts......
how about this..SET your Speed at 200...100 ---150 180...what ever!!!!!!
frikn fly an hour and figure out how you can maintain 200.....you are a godam lemming if you cant figure it out,,
if you learn how to maintain your speed..calibration is easy...if you want lessons..i will teach you...
godam eay...
whaaa fester whaa
PS spelling is for secrataries...if you cant understand it ..move on...but you obviously can..
I understand about half of what you write actually.
Yes I know how to settle speed.
The piont is that I have no way to know if my calibration is any good at all.
So I just drop and pray they hit, that is not the way to get people to do something.
You need to give people something they can easily see to motivate them to get there.
Right now it feels like you need to put hours of practise and all that practise will mean nothing if there is even a tiny change in flight parameters and my bombs will drop way off target.
If I have a speed indicator then I could judge my speed and decide this is not a good run and go around to try again.
Right now I just waster my bombs.
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well adding the speed into the bomb sight would just bring back accurate bombing again, and we DONT WANT THAT DO WE!
The idea of the speed indicator in the bomb sight has been brang up before, but i think my post got flamed to deaf because they thought they were elite bomber pilots, who didnt want there skills replaced.
I think AVRO1 really sums its all up really! If you miss your stuffed up your whole 3hrs of flying or 1hr of fling to the target at a safe alt. When you do hit, it would of been more effective to taken a jug or a typoon because alteast you can kill some people well over the base!
Hiting the strat target is just a waste of time.
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Christ, stop whining about not knowing how to bomb right, or how you don't have a large enuff attention span to do so, and learn!
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didn't they(RL piolets) have a precise speed known and held when bombing? dunno why it was left out from the view.
This feature added makes more sense than going back to the arcade setup only because it just barely beats the IGIVEUP threshold.
bring to the past it brought.
'elite' bomber pilots not wanting to go back to the old sight is as justified as elite fighter pilots not wanting the stall limiter being forced on them.
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Yes I know how to settle speed.
The point is that I have no way to know if my calibration is any good at all.
So I just drop and pray they hit, that is not the way to get people to do something.
You need to give people something they can easily see to motivate them to get there.
Right now it feels like you need to put hours of practise and all that practise will mean nothing if there is even a tiny change in flight parameters and my bombs will drop way off target.
If I have a speed indicator then I could judge my speed and decide this is not a good run and go around to try again.
Right now I just waster my bombs.
Avro, if you know how to settle speed, then you know everything. I mean, just how hard is it exactly to pick a reference point, hold the cross hairs to it for and press a button 3~10 seconds?
If there's a change in flight parameters, then you learn to compensate for it, like dropping a little bit earlier with 3~4 salvo with different delay settings - that part is what you have to learn with experience, and it's also what makes the difference between a good bombardier and a bad one.
Besides, if the flight parameter has really changed only a tiny bit, it doesn't make any real difference at all - if the aim is thrown off so much that multiple salvos of bombs dropped all miss, then either you made a drastic change unfit for bombing, or you planned a wrong bomb run - plain and simple.
Did real buff pilots have any 'indicators' or 'guarantees' where their bomb would fall? Of course not.
When flying fighters, do we have a lead calcualtor sight that suggests where exactly our bullets will land? Of course not.
We learn those things, and practice, and hope our personal skills are up to the task - we let the guns fire, bombs drop, and hope we aimed it right.
...
If I have a speed indicator then I could judge my speed and decide this is not a good run and go around to try again.
Right now I just waster my bombs
This part, is the difference between a good bomber pilot and a bad one. A good bomber pilot, prepares a bomb run long enough to assure him that the speed is adequate. If you're having doubts that you may miss the drop because you're speed may be wrong - then it mean naught but that you are that much inexperienced, or lacking practice.
There's a reason why bombers enter a long, steady bomb run despite risk of being a sitting duck. If you miss the drops so much that it is frustrating for you, it merely means you aren't doing a good bomb run.
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only thing i agree on in this post would b ethe addition of a speed indicator of what u are flying at now and what u calibrated at...
but if we did that..it would put ys rigth back to lazer pinpoint boming...
so i almost think we shoyldnt have tht...you really want everyone with lazer boming again...im thinkn not..
i like when nme bomers miss...
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We are talking more about IAS not ground speed - you can't know from your IAS how to calibrate bombsite - the calibration performed to obtain your true speed and thus make execlty bombdrop.
There are several reasons to add IAS indecator to your calibrate mode.
1st - there were two people in crew who worked on drom - the guye with Norden site that tells to pilot go left - go right etc.. pilot can control his IAS.
2nd - Yes there might be situations as good buff pilot you are that you should use your gunners before the drop - you might change your speed and do not have enoght time to make it steady befor calibration - spesialy at planes life Ar234 that accelerates too slow.
3rd - Using IAS indicatior you can perfrom good bombing at any speed you wants. If it changed you can control it using your throttle.
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how about if the accuracy you have your bombsite calibrated at is less than 60% then the text still displays red...but if you have it set better than that THEN it displays as green...that way provided you keep your speed the same (easy if you have a gunner...)
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We need to get rid of the bombsite altogether. Just throw em out the side when you think you are over the target!
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_189_1068342518.jpg)
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Hi guys I think bombing is good but you need a good formation nice and tight and sometimes some fighter cover.
The squad I was in the other day took out 8 to 10 fighters that attacked our fromation and then flattened almost 2 complete air fields.
Ok we lost all our planes in the end but when you have 5 109s after a b17 it gets a bit hard to out fly them.
If you are working togeather and have gunners even just 1 in a formation to watch while calibration makes a big difference.
H ave fun guys
long live the 490th and the bish
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Originally posted by AVRO1
What I would like is some indication of my calibration.
Right now the best I can do is pray I did well.
How is that encouraging people to learn?
There is no way of knowing what you did wrong.
Which leads to frustration, which does no help beginners.
I would love to learn the bombsight, but it is just too damn frustrating too be fun right now.
Go to the training arena, you will have a green x that will show you where your bombs will hit. Fly to any altitude and practice calibration. When your bomb sight and the green x line up consistantly, you have it. You don't even have to drop a bomb. After a half hour of practice or less, you can be a pro.
Gunner