Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LePaul on September 24, 2000, 04:34:00 PM
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Hey folks, the following is just my 2 cents:
As someone that has no problem paying for great gaming, I'm not really ready to chip in $30 a month for access to a server I can't always get great ping times from. Its not HighTechCreations fault, and its not my ISPs, its just dumb luck. Sometimes I get great traceroutes & pings, but many times, I do not.
Now I used to play Sony's Tanarus game..the online space tank game. Great game. You bought the game for $30~$40 and paid $5 a month to play on their servers. Novalogic takes it a step further by allowing FREE access to their online servers OR allow you to host your own large games (no 8 player limit).
I would be STRONGLY in favor of buying Aces High (ala in the box, registration card, etc) and pay a much reduced rate for access to the online arenas, for the times I DO get decent pings to them. Further, I would like to host my own online battles with more than 8 players, especially if I had bought the retail Aces High Program.
Feedback? Am i totally out of line? When it works, the online play is great. But it isnt always, and Id really enjoy hosting a large battle but not limited to only 8 players.
Thanks for listening.
Paul Bussiere http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
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Hi Paul...... <S>
We've beat this topic to death in our on-line flight sims business focus group. We currently have over 120 members, including representation from iEN, Playnet and old IMOL employees.
If you'd care to join, tag the link below and repose your question there as well. I think you'll get some interesting and varied responses about what it takes to operate and make a profit from this on-line gaming genre.
Regards,
Badger
Looking for a different kind of environment to discuss your favorite on-line flight simulator?
http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
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Thanks for your response.
Im going to pass on being in another EGroups Listserver. Im already overwhelmed in my email as I am part of the BD-5 Listserver (powered by egroups). You see, Im building my own airplane, as are others, so we all stay in touch with design changes, modifications, etc etc. Feel free to check my site out.
But I know, there is a fine line between being profitable and giving a product/service away. And, I do not suspect I am the first the advocate the ideas I originally mentioned. But, I stand by my ideas and hope someone frm HTC can respond to them.
Paul Bussiere http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
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Originally posted by LePaul:
Thanks for your response. Im going to pass on being in another EGroups Listserver. Im already overwhelmed in my email as I am part of the BD-5 Listserver (powered by egroups).
np....BTW, I assume you know that you can set your profile on eGroups to use WEB based access just like this system. You don't have to receive email. There's also a third option to receive all new posts as a batch file.
<S>
Regards,
Badger
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Keep in mind though, that other online games have literally thousands of people playing them. People often refer to online RPGs and their price, but you cannot compare the two. Online RPGs have a few 100,000 people who bought the game and pay low monthly prices. That is a lot of income for that company.
HTC, on the other hand, only has around (my guess) 200-250 people who pay for their accounts. That is not much profit if the price is lowered to match other games that have a much larger customer pool.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
(http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf/ban.jpg)
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200-250 people because they are the only ones that can afford to burn 30 a month.
$50 for the box game, $10 a month for online play (just like EQ) is a much better alternative to a gamer.
If you take into consideration what the LARGE majority of the players have to pay..
Most non-US countries not only charge for the internet connection, but also charge per minute bills on their telephone bills (like Germany and I think the UK).. not to mention the obvious problems that arise with the dollar exchange.
Now add that to the possible OTHER games people would play.. like EQ or whatever is out there.. say that is $10 or $15 a month as well...
Now comes along AH and asks 30 whackazoids a month.
All the above add up to what most of us consider impossible to pay. Solution? Drop the 1 or 2 other games the person enjoys playing to pay for AH? Find a cheaper ISP (which is very likely to get HORRIBLE ping from)? Blackmail your local governor?
For most of us that would like to be in AH but aren't the obvious option was to NOT subscribe to AH.
I would be really interested to see if HTC does a poll on the income range of those subscribed to AH.. I bet they are mostly in the mid-hi income range (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) .
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Thanks for your response.
First, Im not asking for a price reduction: I'm asking to be able to buy my own copy so I can host my own games, since I've had many times where my connection to their servers are less than adequate. In its current [free] form, I can host a game for 8 players. Id much rather be able to have 16 to 32.
Like I said, I do not mean to come off as someone whining about the price. Not at all. I love the game, but sadly I can't get a good connect to the servers consistently. There are several in this area that are very interested in the game and if I could host my own battles, it would draw more in. Their Internet access costs $19 to $25 a month, few are really willing to pay that for access to a game server (especially if their response times from the host servers are poor).
That is all. Maybe an alternate means of income for HTC...selling a model for small ISPs like me who have people that want to play.
Paul http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
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Tac:
Well said, exactly my point.
They may get more members for $20 a month than they currently are for $30.
Without going on like a broken record, we all agree the game is great and enjoy seeing the rapid enhancements made to it by the developers. As a fledging programmer myself, I can understand what they are going through to make it all happen behind the scenes. So far, I have -zero- dollars invested in the game. I'm willing to invest some, if I can have better options, as my prior post mentions in detail.
Paul http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
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The advantage for HT for a $30 set subscription and unlimited play is that revenue predictions are much easier, which makes for a better way to deal with accountants and investors. From that point of view it is a very good idea.
The problem is that there are also people (e.g. me) who are unlikely to play enough to make the $30 seem competitive compared to the competition (e.g. Warbirds).
I can play Warbirds for 15 hours a month for what it would cost to play AH for 1 hour a month, or 100 hours. If I averaged 10 hours a month online then AH would seem a bad prospect unless it was so much better than the other online simulations to make the extra outlay seem worth it.
If I was a regular 10 hour a month player I would probably not be interested in AH, unless there was, say, a $20 option which gave me 10 hours of play, with maybe additional hours at $2.50 an hour.
To my mind what AH needs is a sliding scale
of options, which will be more difficult for
acounting, but might attract more people.
E.g.
$10/month gives you 5 free hours
$20/month gives you 10 free hours
(additional hours at $2, or $2.50 or something)
$30/month gives you unlimited hours
So you can work out the minimum monthly
income from the mix of subscriptions, but the
$30/month looks enough of a bargain to
encourage people to go for that.
To be successful AH needs to poach players and entire squadrons from WB. Also it needs
to offer something other than just capture the flag with the addition of tanks. If WW2
online gets going than capture the flag + tanks will look like old hat.
At the moment the graphics and additional ground targets and flight models outperform
WB 2.76, but WB III might be a serious threat.
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Very good points.
I notice no one from HTC has responded. Perhaps the rates/fees are not up for discussion, which is fine, I can understand and appreciate that as a business owner myself.
But, if I see I have a potential larger audience for a modest price cut, I'd be inclined to listen to it.
Take care
Paul Bussiere
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Maybe they don't respond because this horse has been beaten into absolute dust.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
Maybe they don't respond because this horse has been beaten into absolute dust.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Beaten since 1995, when Warbirds went pay. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Well to those of you that have been in here a lot longer than I, apologize if this issue is a re-run to you.
I really enjoy the game and wanted to voice my thoughts on this forum. If this annoys those that have already spoken on the issue, I appeal to your good humor.
Thanks guys
Paul Bussiere
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These price threads just baffel me. First its no ones business what they charge, but HTC,s. Second H2H is frikken free. What else do you want.
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EasyMo:
Rather than spout off a response that makes you look like an ass, as your has, why not read the *entire* thread!
Duh!
In case you are incapable of doing this, let me summarize: Not all of us get good connections to the HTC Game Server(s), and some of us (ala ME) would like to buy a copy of Aces High that would allow me to host my own 16 or 32 player games.
Furthermore, the number one complaint I hear from friends I reccomend Aces High too is that they aren't about ready to spend more then they do for Internet Access per month on a game they only play a few times a week.
As mentioned above earlier, I, and others, feel more would play if the price were less.
That is all.
Please review the forum messages before posting your 2 cents. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Paul
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Originally posted by LePaul:
Well to those of you that have been in here a lot longer than I, apologize if this issue is a re-run to you.
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Please review the forum messages before posting your 2 cents. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Paul[/B]
No offense taken.
However, may I politely suggest a search of the General Discussion Forum using the word "price" and going back a year?
It would be a long "review" but then you could again post your 2 cents with a more complete understanding of what has already been said.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hi Toad.
Like I said earlier, humor me. I don't care to drift into a message area in the thousands to find what I may already know. That people aren't crazy about the $30 a month fee. And my thoughts on that have already been posted. However, I am interested if HTC can make/sell/license a version for a small ISP like myself to host my own games for more than 8 players. To date, no reponse. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Paul http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
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You would play if the price is less?
If we are gonna cut prices. Lets start with harleys. Im willing to pay $1000,00 for a new one. I really mean it. Ill find the money somewhere. Since it rains all the time here in east Texas, and its hotter than hell in the summer. I dont feel that I should have to pay full price. I can only use it part time anyway.
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If your comma is accurate, you'd pay $1 billion for a Harley. I guess barnum said it best...
But anyways, as you asked...if the per month fee were less, AND i could get decent ping times to the server, sure Id play online. But, both are not the case. Pings times aren't that great and Id really like to host my own 16/32/64 player battles here. Id love to know the cost for a copy/license to do that!
Paul
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If a typo is the only flaw you can find in my argument. This is hopless anyway.
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Easymo... your bellybutton ears are growing longer each post. Keep up the good work.
ALL massive online games that are coming out now are going to the $10 a month range. HTC will either have to "get with the program" or get swamped by the competition. Folks here love to squeal about the great features of AH, support, modeling and other stuff and then say that they would pay the 30 a month because its worth it, others say it keeps the peons and "kids" out of the game and other such idiotic elitist (and non-bussiness oriented) views, yada yada yada (see other price threads and you will see all this and more).
I, as a gamer who LIKES and ENJOYS WW2 sims very much, but are not THE ONLY game I like to play; can tall you that the moment I see my favorite 3 games going into massive online play... game1, game2 and game3... I like them all, all are different genre's.
I pay for the box version and $10 a month each... now comes a WW2 sim I like.. and it asks me for $30 a month to play? Sorry, but as much as I like WW2 sims I enjoy the others as well.. and if I can get my fun on 3 games for the price of one (AH) you can bet your bellybutton that AH will NOT be the one I choose.
Now I hear that other companies are making better, bigger ww2 sims... and are very likely to go to the $10-$15 range per month. That is one I can easily subscribe to it without it being a load on my wallet.
AH will end up with $10 a month for unlimited play or end up releasing a boxed version and then $10 or so a month, you just wait and see, the market is what determines all this, not a few 200-250 people that can afford such outrageous price.
Warbirds? Air Warrior? $100 a month bills you say you had? Heh, why do you think those 2 games are going downhill already? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
History will prove me Right! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!
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This is a reply to restore the night entity! http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005327.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005327.html)
Sorry it was off this topic, but I wanted Igloo and all to get this! We need to restore the night! Please!
K-KEN
http://www.cutthroats.com/ (http://www.cutthroats.com/)
(http://www.cutthroats.com/art/buttons/on_patch8Xs.gif)
Originally posted by Igloo:
Keep in mind though, that other online games have literally thousands of people playing them. People often refer to online RPGs and their price, but you cannot compare the two. Online RPGs have a few 100,000 people who bought the game and pay low monthly prices. That is a lot of income for that company.
HTC, on the other hand, only has around (my guess) 200-250 people who pay for their accounts. That is not much profit if the price is lowered to match other games that have a much larger customer pool.
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Originally posted by LePaul:
Hi Toad.
Like I said earlier, humor me. I don't care to drift into a message area in the thousands to find what I may already know...
...To date, no reponse. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Paul http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
Yet you told Easymo to read the *entire* thread!
I'm simply suggesting you follow your own advice to him. This "price" is a long, long thread. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
...and you might want to call HT or Pyro directly. They answer the phone and have been very amenable to discussing the game. Failing that, there is always E-Mail. Might as well go to the source.
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Lepaul. I just had you in an arena. You continued to vulch people on the runway after I ask you not to. Nobody else was. and you ran off two of my players. If you had your own 16 plus hosted game. Nobody would play with a 12 year old anyway.
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Well lets see, lets tell the whole story...
You took off a mile ahead of me, I caught up to you, and shot you down. A vulch is when you pick on a helpless opponent rolling to take off.
You whine like a pig. Figures you want to ride one too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I could hardly care less if you were in the games I host or not. I have a lot of people I play AH with online and we have a great time in Free For All.
Point is, I nailed you fair and squre. Go whine to your mommy, pal. Enjoy the ride down in the chute....
Paul
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[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 09-26-2000).]
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Cat got your tongue, EasyMo?
Good.
Go away if you can not stay on topic and discuss this like an adult.
OOh..did I ban you from my game this evening? Sorry....NOT! Muhahaha. Kids like you shouldnt be up so late on a school night anyways.
Paul
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Since you missed the point of my post. Ill try it this way. Long after people have forgotten how many kills you got. They will remember how you played the game.
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Dropping the price of AH is going to be
very difficult for HTC as I assume the
financial backers have been provided with
forecasts of monthly income. Changing
the pricing structure will make this harder
to predict.
However the next 6 months may be tough with
WB III coming online (well established
already) and possibly WW2 On Line, and maybe
competition from the online element of
Rowan's Bob (although I think Rowan has
missed the boat by missing all the 60th
anniversaries).
If AH doesn't capture market share over the
next 6 months things might get pretty messy.
The Warbirds wing I fly with have talked
about flying Aces High, but some of us only
fly occasionally (and these people are not
dweebs or incompetent - just short of either
cash or time). For these people WB offers
a better pricing structure. This means the
Wing is unlikely to decamp to AH, and the
people, and the Wing are important to me,
and we have developed trust and tactics
flying together.
AH needs to offer something significant to
overcome these obstacles and gain that
vital market share, and I think the current
pricing structure is an obstacle at the moment. But it _is_ hard to balance changes
against revenue and financial backing requirements.
It's very hard. I don't envy HT in the least.
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This is the way I see it:
Post the number of people you know would subscribe to AH for at least a year (meaning they are into ww2 sims) if the price was an affordable $10 or $15 a month (with or without buying a boxed version, unlimited play).
I personally know 12 and 6 or 7 more possible from my college buds.
So in my case, HTC has lost $1,440 + $840 probable per year and god knows how many others my pals know that would also subscribe if it wasn't $30 a month!
If it was $15 it'd be $2,160 + $1,260 probable.
It is much better to have a wide audience, where you can lose a dozen or so accounts without it hurting you so much, than to have a small group which would DEFINETELY hurt to lose those dozen or so accounts.
Now also take into account the competition, from whom you are likely to nab a great portion of their subscribers because AH IS a better sim and doesnt show a wallet-killing aspect. Then add the possible thousands that ARENT in AH or WB or AW because of the pricing...
I'd say AH is losing a hell of a lot of money from such untapped source of income.
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I agree TAC. Many fine folks cannot play due to the price. For those folks I am sympathetic. And as a result many remain on the ZONE or Gamestorm or maybe they moved on to the WB's "ACA" for 10/mo for something better.
One problem is this, if HTC were to drop the price to a low of $10/mo, then yes, we would indeed be re-aquainted with many old mates but the doors to AH would be flung wide open to the REAL dreck of the Internet.
The community you see in AH now, would be gone in a month or two and replaced with a myriad of clans filled by jeuvinile "g3n3ral kEwl d3wDz" along with "game gamers" galore who couldn't tell you the difference between a DB-603 and a McFilet-A-Fish but they'll take advantage of every bug or nuance in the game..
Give folks a 90 day account at $10/mo for an arena that they can learn in. Something more than the free 2 week trial. Please, just don't wish that HTC lower themselves to the level of fast food take out.
Been there. Seen it. I shiver at the memory.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 09-26-2000).]
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I hear you Westy. I got away from WBs completely due to both the company and the crowd. After getting a copy of Rogue Spear I tried it online at Mplayer. What a joke that was. Check the ARMM boards (http://www.actionxtreme.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=ARMM&number=46&DaysPrune=20&LastLogin=) for a real wake-up call. This is played online for free, and look at the idiots they get.
I've seen guys there that claim to be real "gun nuts" yet don't know what a .50 BMG is. AH would go straight into the crapper if the price dropped to $10/month. You'd see those morons here screaming for a Zeke with a 500mm cannon that fires at 5,000 rpm. I got away from WBs and Mplayer because of attitudes like that.
Would I play online for $15-20 a month? Nope. I wouldn't play online if the main was free. Why? I don't put up with the kind of BS people are complaining about in the main. I've seen it first hand during my trial, and I don't like it.
If all that hits here, I'm gone. The occasional idiot I can handle, maybe five or six at once. But an entire game full of 'em? Forget it.
Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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We're no different than any other business in that we always have to analyze the effectiveness of our pricing.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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I understand that Pyro. Let me go on record in that I would never ask (again) to see the price raised. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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Hey guys, thanks for replying..especially to HTC's own Pyro.
Since this thread has wandered a little, let me restate my initial suggestion:
a) As aforementioned, my connect speeds to the game servers is not always that great, so I'd like to be able to buy either a full scale, leggit copy of Aces or, through whatever means by licensing and such, be able to host my own 16/32/64 player games.
b) The prices for Aces High seem too high to me. But, I am not ranting on about that. I've run a subscription BBS system for years. If the price is too low, the riff-raff come in and squeak & moan. If its too high, it scares way too many potential subscribers away. So, maybe if you guys could bring the price down somewhere in the middle? At its current $30 price tag, its more than I pay for Internet Access per month, and frankly, I do not feel I'd get $30 of usage out of it. I play a few times a week, and then there are times I go a month without playing.
c) Easymo's ranting about me is pathetic. In the game he refers to, it was a FFA (Free For All) game. I was killed on the runway 3 times and thought it was hilarious....I mean, come on, seeing a 500 pound bomb come through the windshield is pretty impressive! I hosted a great game last night that filled up fast, Chunder, Carrie, Abunabi and several others were in there having a great time. So, Easymo, as far as being a host goes, you are the only one whinning. So unless you care to apologizing for boo-hooing about nothing, Ill just keep on banning you with glee.
And as this thread began, these are just suggestions. I really enjoy the game and just wish I could host bigger games that allow for more than 8 players.
Thanks all.
Paul Bussiere