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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Apache on December 03, 2001, 10:36:00 AM

Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Apache on December 03, 2001, 10:36:00 AM
Actually, thats exactly what I did. Ruined my goal of ending the tour with an overall 4.0 k/d.

Told myself, ok, last sortie. Pay attention to your SA but don't sandbag, be aggressive. I kill a spit and a P38. So far so good. Spot an La7. Easy kill by watching him a few seconds. Dive below his 6 and come up. Take off his left aileron then close for the kill. 186 yards, pull the trigger and...A fellow rook N1k2 zooms down in front of me. Blow my own arse clean off. Was actually a pretty good shot too  :)

And I can't wait for him (the n1k pilot) to say something about gangbanging a con again. Gonna show him the film  :D.
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Kieran on December 03, 2001, 10:43:00 AM
I was there to hear your disappointment. Yup, that's tough. There was a lot of action around A5 last night, so I took to climbing after the buffs. I didn't feel like joing the conga lines all that much.  ;)
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Steven on December 03, 2001, 11:09:00 AM
"Conga lines."  LOL.  That's the best description of what mostly occurs that I've read yet!
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: StSanta on December 03, 2001, 11:14:00 AM
Hey Apache, send me the film will ya? I sort of collect killshooter films   :).

Will of course protect the names of everyone involved.

stclaus@stofanet.dk if you want to share it with me.

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: StSanta ]
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Am0n on December 03, 2001, 11:54:00 AM
I gotta great film to Apache, its one of me in a A6M chasing a LA7 and you attempting to bounce it, falling behind he and i, missing your shots and yelling at me to "stay the hell outta your way"   :D

lol   :D

Quiet humerous that once you have engaged the enemy its automaticly "your kill", even though he was persude buy 2 other AC prior to the engagement.  :rolleyes:

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Apache on December 03, 2001, 12:17:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Am0n:
I gotta great film to Apache, its one of me in a A6M chasing a LA7 and you attempting to bounce it, falling behind he and i, missing your shots and yelling at me to "stay the hell outta your way"    :D

lol    :D

Quiet humerous that once you have engaged the enemy its automaticly "your kill", even though he was persude buy 2 other AC prior to the engagement.   :rolleyes:

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]

I will reserve comment until I have reviewed the film again this evening. If you had already engaged the La7, then I sincerely apologize. However, where the hell did ya go?  :D
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Am0n on December 03, 2001, 12:54:00 PM
Im 100% sure i was engaged with him before you attacked. If you want to check it out i'll let you veiw my film.

I didnt realize at the time that you had even said anything to me, not until reviewing the film later did i note that you thought i cut you off.

BTW what do you mean buy "where did i go?"
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: WarChild on December 03, 2001, 01:28:00 PM
does new tour take scores from the 1st even if the page hasnt been reset?
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: R4M on December 03, 2001, 01:34:00 PM
Kill stealers suck. And if they force a killshoot, much more  :)
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Mr Hanky on December 03, 2001, 01:36:00 PM
The snapshot killshooter doesn't really bother me that much.  Its difficult to judge exactly where the enemy is/should be due to lag and other things.  I especially hate it when the friendly has tracers off and I can't tell if he's shooting or not.

The kill shooter scenario that I absolutely hate is when you have someone lined up for a 300 yard kill.. you are locked on his 6 and a friendly decides to HO him.  Why on earth would someone HO a plane with an enemy directly behind him?  Its a move I've seen all too fequently in the MA lately :(
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Apache on December 03, 2001, 01:49:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Am0n:
Im 100% sure i was engaged with him before you attacked. If you want to check it out i'll let you veiw my film.

I didnt realize at the time that you had even said anything to me, not until reviewing the film later did i note that you thought i cut you off.

BTW what do you mean buy "where did i go?"

No thanks, have my own film.

Ram, you calling me a kill stealer? Know this. I have never, ever knowingly stolen a kill from anyone. As stated, if I engaged this La7 after Am0n, then I owe him an apology, nothing more.
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Am0n on December 03, 2001, 02:12:00 PM
I agree totaly with your concerns apache. I cannot stand it when i shoot someone down and theres some fool chasing him to the ground firing away, happens to often. Or in your case, what you feal i done to you.

The offering of my film was only so you can see it from my point of veiw. Besides it would also give you a good laugh to see me die instantly 3 seconds later to a sniper flak panzer  :)
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Apache on December 03, 2001, 02:24:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Am0n:
I agree totaly with your concerns apache. I cannot stand it when i shoot someone down and theres some fool chasing him to the ground firing away, happens to often. Or in your case, what you feal i done to you.

The offering of my film was only so you can see it from my point of veiw. Besides it would also give you a good laugh to see me die instantly 3 seconds later to a sniper flak panzer   :)

I understand completely Am0n. Thanks for the offer.

Hope you got the kill on the La7, BTW.
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Apache on December 03, 2001, 06:43:00 PM
I throw myself to the court of public opinion. Here's the film.
 http://vmfapache.tripod.com/killsteal.zip (http://vmfapache.tripod.com/killsteal.zip)
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Kieran on December 03, 2001, 07:28:00 PM
What I saw was a P-47, closely followed by a Nikki, chasing an La-7. Your Spit IX is above and in a position to dive on the La-7. The 47 makes his pass, the La dodges. You have moved into the lead position now, arguably jumping in front of the Nikki in pursuit.

Now this is a little dicey. Had it only been the Nikki in pursuit the the La could have simply run away. Your Spit (with superior E) forced him to turn or die. From this point on there was nothing for him to do but to run back to the Flakpanzer, but your Spit was all over him. I can see shots landing and the moment is ripe. At this point the Nikki clearly positions itself in front of you for the shot, forcing you to kill yourself.

Judgement: toss-up. AmOn could argue he was chasing first (he was). You can argue the kill was all but yours (it was), but there is no denying he jumped in front of your plane.
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Apache on December 03, 2001, 07:59:00 PM
Very well put keiran and I agree. I see Am0n in the film at better that 3000 yards on the deck but didn't see him in the actual combat. In the film he is "chasing" the con, therefore it could be argued that he was engaged before me, albeit I had the better position.

I concede the point.

I apologize Am0n. <S>
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Sunchaser on December 03, 2001, 08:12:00 PM
What's a 4.0 k/d?
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: R4M on December 04, 2001, 01:47:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Apache:

Ram, you calling me a kill stealer? Know this. I have never, ever knowingly stolen a kill from anyone. As stated, if I engaged this La7 after Am0n, then I owe him an apology, nothing more.

Absolutely not, apache. I was not calling anyone anything, and if what I said was to be taken that way, it was not directed at you   :). I just remarked what I think about a major problem nowadays in AH (given the major introduction of new players kill stealings are everywhere, anytime in MA).

I had my own share of them stealers yesterday, too  :)

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: straffo on December 04, 2001, 02:30:00 AM
There is another case who make me jump to the ceiling (typical french expression  ;))

Situation :

You are about to do a clean bounce on a con who is completly unaware of you ...
You carefully align the con (as like me you gunnery is awfull  ;))

At 300y you are about to open fire (yuck ... a good bounce   :D ) you decide to wait till 200y and at the time you open fire blammo a dweeb with tons of E start to spray and pray at 500y so you open fire (it's your kill afterall) and what happen ?

The dweeb oveshoot you so you die of killshooter  and this idiot collide with your target ...

To sum up : 2 kill awarded to a guys who was afk ... so is life  ;)
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Zaphod on December 04, 2001, 03:18:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Sunchaser:
What's a 4.0 k/d?

kill ratio........4 kills to each death by that particular pilot.  

zap
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Am0n on December 04, 2001, 08:08:00 AM
Looking closely at my film its a toss up for sure.

I had superior E, and was in persuit of him first. but you indeed had setup a great bouncing posistion and angle of attack.

I had more speed than you and him, you can see in my film that i blow past you, land shots on him and have to loop to stay on his 6 with out over shooting.

Its a tough call as i said, although it seems like a peril of warfare, sometimes theres "friendly fire".

<S>Apache
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Am0n on December 04, 2001, 08:14:00 AM
btw for the record i was in a A6M  :)
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Apache on December 04, 2001, 09:05:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Am0n:
Looking closely at my film its a toss up for sure.

I had superior E, and was in persuit of him first. but you indeed had setup a great bouncing posistion and angle of attack.

I had more speed than you and him, you can see in my film that i blow past you, land shots on him and have to loop to stay on his 6 with out over shooting.

Its a tough call as i said, although it seems like a peril of warfare, sometimes theres "friendly fire".

<S>Apache

Agreed Am0n.

The way I see it, I should have paid more attention to what was below/behind me, although the position of my lift vector prohibited that once I made the initial turn on the con (above him). As a matter of fact, you weren't even visible to me (in the film) until after that turn so I wouldn't have seen you anyway.

The only time I'm not in front of you the entire time is when you pass me after I have landed shots on the con. Granted, at that time you had a better E state but I had already chopped throttle to keep my turn tighter and to avoid the overshoot. I was already within 200 yards and didn't need to get much closer.

Can you send me your film? I'm curious as to when you landed shots on the con. Before or after me? my email is bkapache@sc.rr.com
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Am0n on December 04, 2001, 11:23:00 AM
I'll send it to you when i get home from work. If i had web space i would post it for all to check out.

Sadly i cannot see your hit sprites from my film, but you definately shot before me.

You can see in the film(mine) though that after the burst i put into him he bellows smoke/gas and starts his journey toward the ground. He may have already been damaged from your attack though.


I'll send you the email later tonight. Thanks for not being a typical AH salamander about this apache, much respect for that. <S>
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Apache on December 04, 2001, 11:33:00 AM
Quote
Thanks for not being a typical AH salamander about this apache, much respect for that. <S>

And the same goes for you too Am0n. Actually, this has been an enjoyable experience working thru this.

Look forward to seeing your film tonight. <S>
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Kieran on December 04, 2001, 02:01:00 PM
FWIW, it is refreshing to see people work things out amicably.
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Am0n on December 04, 2001, 03:33:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Apache:
Look forward to seeing your film tonight. <S>

Your just looking forward to watching that flak panzer on the deck sniper me!  :D
hehe

(not at home yet, still at work.)
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Am0n on December 04, 2001, 05:15:00 PM
Apache check your mail bud.
---

Kieran

Reguarding your observation: very good indeed except one point i would like to note.

The LA7 in no way could have "ran away" from me, i was closing extremely fast. I dove from around 10k down to the deck as i was persuing him. I could argue that the bounce from Apache forced him to turn, blowing my shot but the one who really got the short hand of the stick was the P47 infront of me, it would apear after all to be "his kill" and apache and i took it from him.

As i said though, good points in your post. Both of us indeed were at fault in this scenerio.

If i had some webspace i would offer you my film so you can see it from my point of veiw.

(btw i was in a A6M, just for the record im not a N1K2 dweeb lol  :) )


<S>
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Kieran on December 04, 2001, 06:08:00 PM
Sorry about the missed ID. Also sorry I could not judge the E state- normally an La7 accelerates like a bat out of hell, so if you don't get it in the first few seconds you don't get it at all.

FWIW, fly what ya like. If HTC didn't intend for us to fly them they wouldn't model 'em. I'd fly the Nikki, I just don't like it. Seems silly to apologize for flying a plane you like if you ask me, though (whatever you like).  ;)
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Apache on December 04, 2001, 06:11:00 PM
Thanks for the observation Kieran. I agree. Rather refreshing.

I disagree with you Am0n on the P47. Notice when the La7 turns, the P47 doesn't follow but zooms past. Maybe we skeert him  :)

Here is Am0n's film. As I told him in a return email. We're both right, lol. http://vmfapache.tripod.com/killshoot.ahf (http://vmfapache.tripod.com/killshoot.ahf)
Title: I could have shot that Rook N1K2!
Post by: Am0n on December 05, 2001, 02:25:00 PM
Its a dead link apache, tripod doesnt like remote links to well  :)


All in all i have to say this is the first time iver ever seen something like this resovled in a mature manner. 99.99% of the time its a childish name calling flame fest, ecspecialy something of this nature.

--
Kieran i know what your saying about the LA7 and its E retaining ability, half the time i will not bounce them when nearly any AC unless they are either on the deck, or i see them making several turns.

In this particular case, he looked to be fresh off the run way, meat on the table  :)