Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on October 31, 2003, 08:38:25 AM
-
My friend has a problem - or rather his girlfriend's son has a problem. The guy is 19 years old and while not particularly evil, seems to run with a bad crowd.
For instance on the day of the big power blackout they were caugh in a locked-up Wallmart with a shopping cart full of shotguns.
At that time he was on probation for and "unathorised use of a car" or something - which, if I understand it correctly, means he was not charged with stealing a car but was in it.
Anyway, he is on a $5K bail now and expecting a date with a judge in a few months.
All I could advise them is to try and make a deal with a judge to enlist in a military. I've heard it used to be done. I am sure a hitch in a military will much more likely set his head straigh than the equal time in jail.
19-24 is a dangerous time for some people and his weakness of falling under other people's influence may actually prove a strength in the army environment - he will be more succeptible for indictrination than a more independent-minded guy. They could even set him straight for life, if they do not kill him or turn him into a real murderer.
Any ideas? Any experience? Are such deals still being done?
miko
-
I don't think that's been done for 30 years or so. in fact when I was going in (84- psoriasis ended up keeping me out), part of the paperwork was a afidavit swearing I wasn't going in to escape prosecution or as some part of a plea deal.
maybe they have changed now bu thats how it was then.
btw- unauthorised use of a motor vehicle means they caught you driving it but cant prove you where the origanal thief. this is almost always the charge for car theft because the GTA costs to much to try and prove in court (in most cases)
-
Its definately worth a try. The prosecutor (District Attorney its called in New York I believe) would have to go along with it. Judges have a lot of discretionary power, but this is a pretty serious crime. It would have been better if they were caught stealing something other than shotguns :/
-
I can think of about 5 felony charges off the top of my head for this guy. Including prohibited possessor charges for having the shotguns. And all the sentences would be enhanced becuase he was on probation.
I hate to say it, but I doubt you're going to find anyone willing to let him off to join the military. I wouldn't make that deal. Plus, IIRC, you can't join the military anyways if you have a prior felony conviction. Simply becuase felons who don't have their rights restored cannot possess firearms. Which makes it difficult to be a soldier.
Honestly, I would expect this person to be facing roughly two years in the state pen. if he takes the plea bargin.
Sorry I didn't have better news.
-
think the Capt. is right. that was a Vietnam era sentance.
-
He won't get in the service, I garantee it. Had a friend who was going to join up with me, at age 18...he had a pending court date for possession of stolen property and the Gov't finds these things out with a quick background check.
-
What were they planning on doing with a "shopping cart full of shotguns"
In any case, I hope they get help.
-
when i was in the army in 1988, we got a new guy. during some drinking he told me that he was in the army for pulling a gun on a cop. i dont know if its true, but he didnt seem to have any reason to lie about this. last week i visited with a woman i know just back from the mideast. she told me they were desperate for more people so it may be worth a try. but i doubt with his record that they would take him. if for some reason he does get in, you may want to tell him that theives are very likely to fall down flights of stairs and there will be lots of witnesses to the fact thier injurys were caused by falling down stairs, if you know what i mean.
-
Short answer: NO
-
Never hurts to ask but I think his chance of getting into the military is nil. At least that would have been the case a few years ago, getting in got quite competitive. Now, with the troops in the middle east things may have changed.
-
It would cetrainly do him good, althought I doubt whether they will make a deal.
Military is really picky about people's prior records.
They'll take anyone as long as they are not a certifiable f__k up. Sounds like he already has a record.
-
Buy him a BUTT plug.
He'll need it where he's going.
-
Its funny. I remember in the late 60's/early 70's a neighborhood kid got busted in a pre-dawn raid with LSD, speed, pot and hash.
The judge let him join the Army (obviously with the Army's consent) and he went straight to Vietnam (where he found the purist and cheapest heroin available - he came home with a big monkey, but that is another story)
It was as if they needed canon fodder. And it occurs to me that if a Judge withholds adjudication with the agreement of all parties, an offender would technically not have a felony conviction.
Times change. Then they change again. Who knows if these kind of agreements might come around again ...
-
When I joined the Navy in 1989, almost half of my bootcamp company were either ex-convicts or plea-bargain types. One of my closer friends was talked into lying about the deal by a recruiter, which later got him kicked out for lying. He only lied so he could get into the sonar program which required Secret clearance. Most in my company did not lie about their circumstances and the Navy happliy used them to clean toilets and paint ships (airman/seaman apprentices with no job specialty).
In recent years, recruiters have grown even more desperate. High school diploma equivalency was required when I joined, but is not required any more, at least as of 2000 when my friend was a recruiter in Kansas bringing in anyone that could say their name and sign the forms.
What the Navy officially accepts and what they actually recruit and keep are very often two different standards.
I am glad that the submarine community is a little more picky. The worst submarine crews seem like intelligent, high-class snobs compared to typical surface fleet crews. I have lived in barracks where the majority of people there lived like animals.
I can't speak for the other branches, but I am quite certain that it is possible for a potential convict to make a deal to join the Navy, especially if the recruiter needs to meet his quota for the month and only has a few days left.
-
Originally posted by Dune
...Plus, IIRC, you can't join the military anyways if you have a prior felony conviction. Simply becuase felons who don't have their rights restored cannot possess firearms. Which makes it difficult to be a soldier.
Although difficult to do, a felon can indeed join the armed services. S/he needs to get a document called a felony waiver. Basically, it leaves it up to the discretion of some very high ranking officers (aka Commandant of the Marine Corps if that is the service) on whether or not to accept this person. If the felony charge has anything to do with violence (armed robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, etc) the felony waiver will be summarily dismissed. Other felony charges (speeding to elude for example) have a much better chance of getting the waiver passed. In any case, it will cost the candidate a decent amount of attorney's fees as well as a good amount of time invested in writing letters to Congressmen, Judges, Police Officers, etc.
As far as the original question is concerned, based on the described situation, I would have to say that this guy is going to spend some time in prison. Already on probation and being caught with a cartful of shotguns is a bad place to be when facing a prosecutor.
-
I doubt seriously that he will pass ANY security clearance in the military. Frankly I'd be surprised if they even gave it passing consideration to try. AFAIC this guy has no business in the military. He has passed up his options while commiting a burglary and in possession of weapons while a felon, not to mention weapons violations compounding the burglary. This guy deserves no second chance in the military. He blew that when he screwed up his probation.
-
Even if they did let him in what makes anyone think he'd "straighten up?" The Service isn't mommy or a babysitter- the only difference is he'll have the chance to steal automatic weapons instead of Wal-Mart shotguns in the military.
Frankly people like that degrade the quality of our military-I would hate to depend on someone like that in a military situation. The best he can hope for is a years' County, but it sounds like they're tired of his act so he'll probably do two years in the State Pen. As it should be, for his continued criminality.
-
Military time in lieu of jail time went out with the end of the draft.
-
he can do that. But not in the US Army, in the French Foreign Legion. Course, he'll prolly die there but who cares?
-
Doesnt look good for your young friend, he has made some seriously bad decisions...
-
lots of folks in navy had convictions when i was in.
but they were stopping that they said. im betting not.
but like he said dont lie to the navy. unless you know what your doing. really.
-
That sounds bad. I am sure if that boy was kept busy and away from bad influence for a few years, he would have matured and outgrown that crap.
He was not involved with drugs or engaged in violence - just stupid unplanned idiocies like that car theft or breaking into the store while the lights are out. He is hispanic, by the way and raised by a single mother.
It looks like he is on the way of becoming a career criminal. Too bad.
Unless of course we take a beating in Iraq in the next few months and the army has trouble getting willing bodies. That does not seem likely.
miko
-
i did some time on recruiting duty. no branch will want to touch him esp cause of the scatterguns. booze trouble and gun trouble are death when it comes to military.
-
ffl wouldnt take him i bet. they actually pretty selective for some time now according to my ffl budds. miko where does the boy live would his mom go speak to a recruiter and has he been convicted of the looting guns charges yet?
-
Where is Creamo? Shouldnt he be telling you that youre an idiot for asking for advice here?
-
The Military wants people with clean records and good SAT scores.
-
He better get use to the "Cauliflower of love" with a healthy dose of "man mayo"
-
Originally posted by anonymous
ffl wouldnt take him i bet. they actually pretty selective for some time now according to my ffl budds.
Ya I heard they ain't givin out them phone numbers so readily these days.
bumba
-
First thing he needs to do is go talk to a recruiter. Tell him not to even think about the USAF cause they are the most strict as far as backround checks and clearences.
When he does, make sure he is completly honest with said recuiter and not to jerk him around in the slightest bit.
close to the the end of the month is the best time becuase most recruiters are trying to make mission. They wont let him enlist with a pending trial but if his recruiter can/will speak for him on his behalf it might help u never know.
his best guess would be the army or the Marines and you can probably tell by my avitar which would be my choice. Tell him good luck and to smarten the f**k up.
-
Even if he does get in, its not what the military makes of him...but what he makes of the military. That is what it all really boils down to IMHO.
-
Just what we need in the military, thieving scum. He made seriously bad choices, he pays the price.
Dont give me any of the "poor boy, it's not really his fault" crap. Nobody today ever takes responsibility for their actions, it's always someone elses fault. He knew damn well his actions were illegal, I sure wouldn't want to count on someone like that.
dago
-
Co-worker's son is in jail now doing 90 days on a first offense. He has already contacted the Coast Guard with favorable results. OTOH he was/is a trained EMT.
I can get more details if desired.
-
Dago: Just what we need in the military, thieving scum.
What? He already knows how to pillage. They only need to teach him to murder and rape and sign patriotic letters concocted by his commanding officers.
He made seriously bad choices, he pays the price.
And serving his country and becoming a better man is not a good price and not taking responcibility? I guess you are looking forward to paying for his stay in prison, his future stays in prison and costs of his future crimes?
Be my guest.
miko
-
LOL I have to agree with you Miko2d. It isn't a bad thing to give a young kid a chance... it isn't like a 19 year old kid without a Dad there doesn't deserve some compassion.
It isn't like serving in today's US military is some kind of a social program, especially if he served in Iraq or some place like that. It would be a perfect place for a kid who might think he's a hot shot, but really isn't unredeemable. Do any of you remember when YOU were 19?
-
And serving his country and becoming a better man is not a good price and not taking responcibility?
Definitly NOT. I think being able to serve in our armed forces is a priviledge, and I honor those who make that choice. I don't think it should be a substitute for prison. It definitly is NOT "paying a good price" for criminal acts.
Imagine a young man making his first long awaited call home from boot camp to his anxious parents: "Hi Mom, Hi Dad, doing fine but I am surrounded by criminal types who are only here to prevent from going to prison. Gosh folks, it seems I am one of the few in my platoon who is here because it is something I want to do and am proud to do, the rest committed serious crimes, they are here to avoid prison, and I am scared to sleep at night in the barracks with these guys".
HELL NO, criminals should go to prison, someone who breaks into a store and is busy stealing guns is not a wonderful but just slightly misguided boy who, darned the luck, just happened to have happened upon "the wrong crowd". He IS the wrong crowd.
guess you are looking forward to paying for his stay in prison, his future stays in prison and costs of his future crimes?
Sadly, all of us will pay for this young mans choices one way or the other. I would prefer to pay to keep this criminal in jail than have him out committing crimes. I would rather pay my share of his jail cost and know he is being punished, maybe learning a lesson, than pay the increased cost of his crimes through higher retail prices and higher insurance costs due to his theft and the price that is passed on to the consumer.
If he wants to avoid jail, he should seek help, straighten himself out, go to school, work hard and make an attempt to be a good citizen.
Everyone makes mistakes, none of us are free from having broken a law, but everyone who takes a chance should be ready to pay the price.
You haven't described someone who sounds like he wants to turn himself around, only someone trying to duck the punishment he deserves.
If he wants to serve in the military, let him get his life right, THEN enlist free of reservation, free of an axe hanging over his head and then and only then let him represent our nation.
I hope the days when our military was polluted by criminals ducking jailtime is over. Todays Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines are the best we have fielded. They are volunteers, well trained and equipped. Respect them, they earned it.
dago
-
I work in a military prison, and I can tell you this much: Guys with criminal backgrounds sooner or later will usually end up committing a crime and ending up in a military prison. The military isn't as quick to let you off easy either. I see guys everyday serving up to 6 months for a simple "crime" as Adultery. Larceny will usually get you 1-2 years, especially if it's gov't property. We have enough trouble training quality troops and retaining them without taking on problem children.
-
Personally, it depends on the person. Friend of mine was a trouble maker kid (before I knew him), he got busted, dealt with the judge, went to the marines. He tells me it was the best thing for him. Now he's just a loud mouthed joker instead.......But I guess it's better than a joker in prison eh?
-
Dago: You haven't described someone who sounds like he wants to turn himself around, only someone trying to duck the punishment he deserves.
He does not even know about it yet. What I am doing here is trying to provide a little parenting that the boy missed. He is not a formed man, let alone a mature criminal who cannot be redeemed.
He still has a few years when his character is flexible and receptive. If he spends his next few years in jail, that would be it.
I am not talking aboit geeralities here, like you seem to. I am all for trowing the book at vicious little scum who find pleasure in abusing other people, violence, etc.
But that's not the case.
I did a lot of stuff I am now ashamed off when I was his age - including some property damage. Only I was smart and never got caught.
It did not prevent me from turning out OK. Military service certainly helpled me with my character in many respects.
I do not care if he wants to serve in the military. By the time he is capable of wanting right things, it may be too late for him.
As for military being polluted by jail dodgers, maybe you should have thought about it earlier when you voted for politicians who introduced welfare, enacted laws that made impossible for children to work and had Federal Reserve print money so we can have free exports and live in comphort without work.
The way I see it, any guy whoy would be good for military is almost bound to get in trouble with the law, for lack of challenges and parenting.
What, you want only sissies there who's only distinction was being too covardly to misbehave even if they wanted to?
Misbehaving is what children are supposed to do and adults should be there to control them.
miko
-
Raub, Your job is no picnic, I know from friends who worked in brigs and stockades. And Dago, I have no doubt you are a good guy...
Still ... I think there is room to help a kid. Most nineteen year olds don't have a clue, especially in the circumstances Miko described. If the kid did crimes against a person, I wouldn't even consider it. But it appears he did crimes against property. His Dad was absent. I would give the kid a chance to be a man by proving it, if it were up to me.
As it is, the kid will probably go to prison. Prison.
-
As weapons charge, and already being on probation, just sort of seals his future....as Dune eloquently stated. The military wont be his get out of jail free card. He has difficult times ahead of him
-
Wouldn't hurt to ask your lawyer about it. But does this guy really want to be cannon fodder in Iraq?
-
Originally posted by davidpt40
Wouldn't hurt to ask your lawyer about it. But does this guy really want to be cannon fodder in Iraq?
Not to mention that his NCOs might yell at him and hurt his feelings.
-Sik
-
As for military being polluted by jail dodgers, maybe you should have thought about it earlier when you voted for politicians who introduced welfare, enacted laws that made impossible for children to work and had Federal Reserve print money so we can have free exports and live in comphort without work.
So, now we are blaming the politicians? Geez, you just dont get it do you? Its about accepting personal responsibility.
Gotta admit, you got me with that statement, it's so ludicrous I can't even begin to author a response worthy of such nonsense.
Child labor laws are to blame? Your right there, we should have our 8 year olds working in sweatshops like all the other third world nations.
The Federal Reserve printing money made a 19 year old try to steal guns?
Free Exports? HUH? What the hell does this have to do with crime and the military?
Are you finding comfort in recreational drugs???
Don't get me wrong, and by the tone of my previous posts it would be easy to do. I really do feel sorry for children who grow up without proper guidance, without a strong parental influence to help them grow, develop and get started down the right path in life. It would be so easy for any young person looking for companionship, acceptance and caring to fall in with the wrong crowd and learn the wrong lessons in life.
But, I think it is still incumbant on each and every one of us to at some point decide when faced with a choice between right and wrong, to conciously make the choice we are willing to live with. The young man you speak of knew he was breaking the law and he did it anyway. We have soldiers 19 years old right now carrying a rifle and worrying about dieing day to day in Afghanistan and Iraq. They have to make more difficult choices, and they are almost without exception, making the right ones.
I hope your friends life turns towards the better, I really do, but unless he chooses to face up to his situation, until he realizes he can make choices and there is a better path available, he will have to live with his decisions.
You want to help your friend? Help him get a job, if he hasn't finished high school, point him towards a program to get his GED. Teach him pride.
Discuss with him where he wants to be in 5 years, and how he plans to get there. Make him THINK, make him ACT. Don't expect the Army to make him a better person, challenge him to do that himself. Then if he wants to go into the service, he will be that much farther ahead and will excel.
dago
-
It is nice to see your concern Miko, but the military is pretty selective these days. Sounds like this young man is going to learn the hard way, and that's a shame. You can lead a horse to water my friend, but you cannot make him drink.
-
Gunthr : Most nineteen year olds don't have a clue, especially in the circumstances Miko described.
I obviously cannot tell what is going inside his head and nobody can. But I am pretty sure from my own experience that children do stupid things like that not to profit from them or out of malice but to experiece the danger, the risk, to proove their "coolnes" to likewise idiots.
At his age back in Ukraine I walked by my arms over 100 yard heights, got up in the middle of the night to sneak into the military base to steal some cool stuff, manufactured all kinds of explosive devices and home-made weaponry, etc.
I brought things to school that would have gotten the whole school board suspended had it happen in america.
I only got my head straight - last time, at least - at about 35 years old - which seems exactly like the age most people agree a man grows up. It's not an accident that the founding fathers made 35 years old a legal requirement for serious offices.
Anyway, not every stupid act or even a string of them means a person has criminal tendencies.
miko
-
Dago: So, now we are blaming the politicians? Geez, you just dont get it do you? Its about accepting personal responsibility.
Never hurts to blame the politicians. As for the personal responcibility, righ now I am actualluy accepting as much personal responcibility for that kid as I can - and he is nobody to me.
Actually I've already steered one guy into US military before he even got into trouble.
I appreciate your advice guys, but I need practical stuff for the current situation, not general rants of some abstract concepts.
I will gladly discuss them in a separate thread.
Child labor laws are to blame? ...The Federal Reserve printing money... Free Exports...
The whole culture of personal responcibility and work has been pretty much destroyed in US over the last 70 years. Socialist experimenting is the cause, the stuff I've listed - along with many other bad things like education, etc. are just the way it is expressed.
We have soldiers 19 years old right now carrying a rifle and worrying about dieing day to day in Afghanistan and Iraq. They have to make more difficult choices, and they are almost without exception, making the right ones.
Come on, 19 years old are not equipped to make right decisions. I was all eager to shoot the bad guys when I was 19. It took me quite a few years to develop my mind before I was equipped to understand whom to shoot and why.
Teaching the boy structure, obedience, living with hardship and having to watch his step and thing ahead about his actions is pretty much all the good stuff that I expect from an army. The rest is the government propaganda that will probably have to be pried out of his brain.
You want to help your friend? Help him get a job, if he hasn't finished high school, point him towards a program to get his GED. Teach him pride.
One step at a time. Hard to scare peopel with future in a society where it is illegal to starve.
Don't expect the Army to make him a better person, challenge him to do that himself.
One has to have character already in order to be able to make anyone a better person. Children do not raise themselves and expecting them to do so is a fallacy. Adults raise children.
miko
-
Miko, I agree completely. I know exactly what you are talking about. I screwed up a lot when I was a kid. (and I had both parents) But I am a law and order guy today. But I also know that sometimes, justice is served by throwing someone a rope instead of taking a pound of flesh that will kill the whole body and spirit.
I would just ask some of you guys: if serving in the military instead of going to prison at 19 years of age could straighten this kid out and give him time to grow a little, would you approve of it?
-
****ty troll-who stole Miko's PW?
-
I only got my head straight - last time, at least - at about 35 years old - which seems exactly like the age most people agree a man grows up. It's not an accident that the founding fathers made 35 years old a legal requirement for serious offices.
people grow up when they have to, it has nothing to do with age. I started taking responsability at 18. my little brother is 34 and still trying to find himself (curently looking in sharidan).
there's nothing wrong with trying to turn a kids life around. I've hd a few friends send there kids over, sometime to stay for awhile sometimes just to talk to them and give them my number so they have someone to talk to that isn't their parent.
9 times out of 10 you're waisting your time (at least as far as I've seen so far, you never can tell when something may sink in years later).
but the 1 time is worth it. the military could well be just the thing this kid needs but he may not be the thing the military needs. t bad nobody could have caught him a bit sooner on this path and steared him that way before his curent legal problems.
I do have to agree with the one post though. if he was stealing a cart load of shotguns, odds are he's not running with the wrong crowd, he is the wrong crowd. that doesn't mean he's beyond hope though.
-
Let's see.. if he goes to jail, it'll be prolly quite a short time and during the time he probably doesn't learn anything and is likely to get new "friends".
If hes put into military, it's likely to be longer time than in the jail and he gets a bit different kind of friends...
For the first time, hes probably more use in the army than jail.. on a short and long run.
I don't think his crime during black out was as serious as something similar (actually lesser) crime with the electrics working ok.
He needs to think twice more in the future and not do things on a whim, just because his "friends" thinks 'smart'.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Co-worker's son is in jail now doing 90 days on a first offense. He has already contacted the Coast Guard with favorable results. OTOH he was/is a trained EMT.
mT, when I joined the Coast Guard in 79, they would not accept anyone with an ARREST record. Convictions didn't matter...if you were arrested for anything (guilty or not) they sent you down the street to the Navy Recruiter.
miko...I think the boy is definitely headed for jail time. Probation Violation alone is a serious crime that usually draws a couple years lockdown, PLUS the original sentence and whatever he may get for the shotguns.
-
Am I the only one who would see this kid doing hard time as a GOOD thing?
-
I, , having been appointed a in the United States , do solemly swear (or affirm) to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I bear true faith and allegience to the same, that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, so help me God.
Surely all you guys out there with prior service remember saying this or something similar (think the enlisted oath is slightly different). Personally, I don't want someone in my military who can't even say the oath of office without lying.
-
that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion
mjolnir, please note the subtle difference here. If the kid was offered such a deal that was agreeable to the parent, the judge, the DA, and the Army, the kid would be able to take the oath. It would not be an evasion of justice, nor would he be adjudicated guilty of a felony. Remember, this was common practise in the past.