Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: artik on November 01, 2003, 05:55:34 AM
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Discussion:
Best nonperked planes in MA - top 5:
[list=1]
- Bf 109G-10 Strong - fastest at altitudes above 10k, and best climb climb ratio above 10 (outclimber only by La7 below 10), good firepower variants - 3x20mm for energy fights 2x20mm+1x30mm for Buff inteseption 1x20mm for dogfighting, good 9 min WEP. Week - low compression speed - 450 knots. low roll ratio, veiws not best. Turns bad with gondolas, short flight time - very low on fuel.
- P-51D Strong - Good diver. Good level manuverability on high speed (combat flaps), good bombload - 2x1000 +6 rockets. Excelent views, outstanding flight rangeWeek - low speed in top 5 at high alt , week firepower.
- Fw 190D-9 Strong Excelent speed at all altitudes, excelent firepower, outsanding roll ratio, excelent conrol on high speeds Week low climb ratio, worst turn raito at top 5
- La 7 Strong Best climb, speed, acceleration, manuverability al alt blelow 8k, outstanding WEP time. good firepower Week above 8k no WEP, speed, climb are low, only menuverability remains
- Typhoon 1B Strong - very fast at low altitudes. Outstanding firepower of 4xhispano 20mm with good balistics. Good bombload Week - Low alt fighter, below 8k is week, bed manevurability and not best control
Any other opinions?
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Sort of related topic...Fletchman used to have a nice aircraft description and comparison page for Warbirds. Is there something similar for AH?
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Yes look this link - I think one of the best:
http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/models.htm
But the thread about Top 5 ;)
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Thanks, and sorry bout the slight derail. G-10 for me. :)
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Best interceptor: 109G10
Best buff hunter: Dora.
Best furballer: Lala.
Best Jabo: Tie between Pony and Tiffie.
Best long range escort: Pony (duh!)
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I say Best intercepter is Fw-190-A8 with the 2 30mm's 2 20mm' and 2 13mm's and the Flak Rockets
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F4U-1D :D
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P-38 Strong - best vertical fighter, great climb rate, arguably the best fighter gun package, generally out-turns what it can't out-run and out-runs what it can't out-turn, long-range fuel, great ordnance loadout, great roll rate as speed increases Weak - famous for compression problems, large airframe makes for a very big target, roll rate suffers at low speeds
It's still my plane of choice.
Ack-Ack, feel free to correct or improve my list. :)
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F6F-5
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F6F-5 - STRONG - Pretty high turning radius, excellent dive, good firepower with 6 x 50's, can be used as a turn and burner or a boom and zoomer at times. Armored very well. WEAK - Very slow top speed, slow straight line acceleration.
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Originally posted by HeLLcAt
F6F-5 - STRONG - Pretty high turning radius, excellent dive, good firepower with 6 x 50's, can be used as a turn and burner or a boom and zoomer at times. Armored very well. WEAK - Very slow top speed, slow straight line acceleration.
Not shure that it can be reached in top 5.
First: Firepower - same like Mustang - if you compare with 190D 109g10 Typhoon or La7 all has at least 2 20mm canons and some even more. This is not good firepower. Speed - the top 5 are fast and has good clim ratio. To be surpiotity plane you must be fast - otherway you are on offencive. You can tell that Spit 9 turns good climbs well, has good firepower and easy to control but all the plance in the list outperfom it on its speed. Like 262 outclassed all prop planes Mustang and Dora outclassed Spit 9 and so F6F-5
By the way one more week in F6F very bad rear view ;)
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Originally posted by artik
Not shure that it can be reached in top 5.
First: Firepower - same like Mustang - if you compare with 190D 109g10 Typhoon or La7 all has at least 2 20mm canons and some even more. This is not good firepower. Speed - the top 5 are fast and has good clim ratio. To be surpiotity plane you must be fast - otherway you are on offencive. You can tell that Spit 9 turns good climbs well, has good firepower and easy to control but all the plance in the list outperfom it on its speed. Like 262 outclassed all prop planes Mustang and Dora outclassed Spit 9 and so F6F-5
By the way one more week in F6F very bad rear view ;)
Six fifties cannot be considered weak. They easily out-range any cannons except the Hispanos. Try HOing a Hellcat with a Dora... If the F6F pilot is smart and opens fire at 1.2k, the Dora dies before he's in effective range. Likewise, the P-38 is extremely deadly even without the single Hispano, because the four fifties are concentrated in a small circle (no convergence issues).
Other things worth mentioning: No single-engine fighter has better dive acceleration than the F6F-5, and only the Tempest equals it.
Speed is a minor consideration. It really makes little difference unless all you do is BnZ and run when things go badly. Climb is important, but zoom climb ability is a better measure and the F6F-6 zooms better than any single-engine fighter except the P-47 and they are about dead equal. If you think you can get away in the vertical from a Co-E Hellcat, think again. In all probability, the Hellcat will close on you over the first 2-3k. So, you had better be well outside gun range when trying that maneuver against the F6F-5.
Understand that the F6F-5 is not the best in any single category. But, it is very, very good in every category. Good enough to be extremely dangerous in any Co-E, Co-alt engagement regardless of what it encounters. It is also a very tough airplane, able to survive hits that would obiterate most fighters. Yeah, the rear view isn't very good, but it's not hard to kick some rudder and have a good look. Countering this is the fact that the view over the nose is probably the best of any fighter.
As to speed, it's every bit as fast as the Fw 190A-5 above 5k. It can reach 402 mph between 20 - 21k.
I agree with Wadke, the best overall, non-perked fighter is the F6F-5 Hellcat. Simply do the comparisons.
Another of my favorites, and easily the most under-rated fighter in the game, is the Ki-61.
My regards,
Widewing
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Speed is a minor consideration
Ok lets talk about speed - importance. Yes if your talk 1 vs 1 it is better to have good climb (F6F-5 not the best one) and good turn, maybe..... because if good turner and climber on your 6 you can just disengage.... sucessefully ;).
But when we talking about wingman tactics 2 vs 2 or 4 vs 4 all is defferent. The plane that has suprior speed makes the rules of the game. If someone get on your 6 you just continue to fly stright - and wait untill your wingman will clean you, the slower plane will be at offencive all the time, and the fastest will do what they want. Yes you can land with 5 - 10 kills in Spit 5 untill you get to situation when you can not win all of them. If you in fast plane you just can exit the fight and then return with altitude.
So speed is not minor characteristics but most important one. You might know that Me262 has poor climb raito, very bad acceleration, bad trun ratio - but it is absoultly suprior on other planes why? Speed. If you slow you are allways offenceive. That is whay F6F in not will be one of the top 5 because the rest will outrun it easyly. :)
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Originally posted by Widewing
It is also a very tough airplane, able to survive hits that would obiterate most fighters.
People who watch my films often ask me why I only used my 50cals on that last kill. I usually respond with "because I saw a hellcat back there, he gets my cannon."
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Speed is only an asset if you run a lot.
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The F6F is indeed a good fighter, however its lack of speed and climb rate makes it an opponent that you can choose whether to engage or not. To be successful in an F6F you need to be able to surprise your opponent with superior energy and force him to fight you, not really a problem in the MA, but you are vulnerable to the "hunters" in 109G10's, P-51's, 190D9's, La-7's and to some extent the Typhoon as well.
In CV battles the F6F is my ride of choice, but otherwise I fly the 109. The F6F simply isn't in the same class as the "top 5" listed here, the ability to pick and choose fights is a major advantage the F6F lacks.
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Originally posted by artik
Not shure that it can be reached in top 5.
First: Firepower - same like Mustang - if you compare with 190D 109g10 Typhoon or La7 all has at least 2 20mm canons and some even more. This is not good firepower. Speed - the top 5 are fast and has good clim ratio. To be surpiotity plane you must be fast - otherway you are on offencive. You can tell that Spit 9 turns good climbs well, has good firepower and easy to control but all the plance in the list outperfom it on its speed. Like 262 outclassed all prop planes Mustang and Dora outclassed Spit 9 and so F6F-5
By the way one more week in F6F very bad rear view ;)
AND
Ok lets talk about speed - importance. Yes if your talk 1 vs 1 it is better to have good climb (F6F-5 not the best one) and good turn, maybe..... because if good turner and climber on your 6 you can just disengage.... sucessefully .
But when we talking about wingman tactics 2 vs 2 or 4 vs 4 all is defferent. The plane that has suprior speed makes the rules of the game. If someone get on your 6 you just continue to fly stright - and wait untill your wingman will clean you, the slower plane will be at offencive all the time, and the fastest will do what they want. Yes you can land with 5 - 10 kills in Spit 5 untill you get to situation when you can not win all of them. If you in fast plane you just can exit the fight and then return with altitude.
So speed is not minor characteristics but most important one. You might know that Me262 has poor climb raito, very bad acceleration, bad trun ratio - but it is absoultly suprior on other planes why? Speed. If you slow you are allways offenceive. That is whay F6F in not will be one of the top 5 because the rest will outrun it easyly.
If you say so. :rolleyes:
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He's right Mathman.
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my personal favourite non perk plane would be Spit IX. Perfect all round plane, only weakness? speed - and its not that slow once you get it off the deck.
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Originally posted by GScholz
He's right Mathman.
No, he isn't right. Adding the 262 to the comparison is creating a strawman argument. The 262 is 100 mph faster than any other fighter. However, the difference between the 190D-9 and the F6F-5 at 20k is less than 20 mph, and the F6F-5 is equal in climb up there.
Why do people constantly state that the F6F-5 is slow? It's faster than a considerable number of the fighters available. If we were talking about the F4F-4, then I would agree that the speed difference might be insurmountable. But, it's not the F4F we are considering, we are talking about the 70 mph faster F6F.
Meeting any of the supposed top 5 Co-E and Co-alt doesn't faze me in the least. God help them if I have some altitude on them... Should they be above me, hey that's fine, I don't mind starting with a perceived disadvantage (I also fly the Ki-61, which climbs slow and can barely break 350 mph, but make a mistake fighting the Ki-61 and you will probably die).
In general, regardless of what you are flying, if you get caught low and slow, you are at risk. The idea is not to be caught in that situation. Hell, this tour I killed a 262 with an A-20 because he underestimated the threat. Ditto for a Ta 152 I ran down with a lowly FM-2 and a Spit14 and Me 163 both popped by my Ki-61 (same sortie). Good SA is everything. Why do you think so many fly the fast fighters, especially new players? Cheap insurance for when their SA isn't very good. Of course, there are riders attached to that policy which states that coverage is not extended to encounters with Hellcats piloted by Mathman or Wadke or Hooligan and a few others listed in the fine print. :rofl
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by mos
- famous for compression problems, large airframe makes for a very big target, roll rate suffers at low speeds
Strong[b/] - well put
Weak[b/] - easy solutions... dive flaps, dont let them get your 6 (duh;) ), rudders.
simply the best plane of the war.
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Widewing, the F6F is 45 mph slower than the 190D9 and got 750 fpm less climb rate at 20K. The F6F is a whopping 70 mph slower than the 109G10 and got 1500 fpm less climb rate at 20K. The P-51 is about 40 mph faster at 20K, and even with its mediocre climb rate out climbs the F6F by more than 500 fpm. Even the low-alt La-7 is 30 mph faster and climbs about 300 fpm better at 20K.
These are significant numbers Widewing, and considering that every plane in the "top five" with the possible exception of the Typhoon out accelerates the F6F in level flight the F6F would be a death-trap at 20K facing any of these planes.
Raptor01, the P-38 is better than the F6F at least, however unless AKAK is the pilot it is still a death-trap against the "top five".
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P47 far deserves top 5 over p51 http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=95945]http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=95945
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Btw. Artik, nothing in AH out climbs the 109G10 except the Spit14 and the Me163, and the Spit14 only climbs better below 10K. Above 10K the 109G10 is superior in every aspect of flight except turning, over EVERY plane in AH except Me262 and Me163 (the Ta152 is also better over 25K). I really don't know why the 109G10 isn't perked ... perhaps it is a bit difficult to fly right, but it's so damn good when you get it right.
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No Raptor. The P-51 is faster, climbs better and even turns better at all alts below 20K, Above 20K the P-47 climbs slightly better, but the P-51 is still faster. The numbers simply don't add up for the P-47.
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Yes really 109g10 rocket plane but very difficult to handle (it is my favorite plane). The wrostest its problem is low compression speed. at 420 kts it is difficult to handleand at 450 knots you loose the control. Second low roll ratio aspecialy at high speeds, lots of planes loose pitch ontrol when outcompressed but still can roll and you able to trim the plane before crash. 109g10 loose roll controll earlyer and it might be very difficult recover it.
Yes I really do not know why it has 21(1) level in AH when Spit 9 has 10 and P51D has 15 really starnge. but leave it nonperked I want to fly this bird ;)
Interesting if G10 so good what is G14 and 109K4?
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You should really trim the 109G10 at all times when in combat, helps greatly with the compression problem which you greatly exaggerated ;). The 109G10 can still pull blackout turns at 500 mph, and doesn't lock completely up until it reaches 600 mph.
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The G14 is actually an older version 109 with performance somewhere between the G6 and G10. The G10 was a bastardisation of the K4, using older G series 109's and upgrading them to near K4 standard. Our G10 is supposedly the best G10 possible, however the K4 would still be a little bit faster, climb better and would handle better at high speed, especially in roll. A K4 would be a perk 109 for sure.
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No it would not be a perk, all 109 are teh suck....
Look if you think a better rolling G10 that does some 380mph on the deck and climbs 5,280 fpm is a perk then you are nutz..
Now I would perhaps consider letting the K14 be perked.. :)
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My preeeeeeeeecious!
(http://r1329776.hostultra.com/Uploads/109G.jpg)
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Originally posted by Widewing
I agree with Wadke, the best overall, non-perked fighter is the F6F-5 Hellcat. Simply do the comparisons.
Spit IX outturns, outaccelerates, outclimbs, and outguns the F6F. It is even slightly faster at most altitudes. The N1K2 has also most of these advantages over the F6F.
Not that the F6F is a bad plane. But it is not the best either, IMHO.
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Blackout turns at 450 my pasty white arse!
Full control to 600? what sim are YOU flying? :eek:
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Originally posted by GScholz
These are significant numbers Widewing, and considering that every plane in the "top five" with the possible exception of the Typhoon out accelerates the F6F in level flight the F6F would be a death-trap at 20K facing any of these planes.
Somehow you seem to think that absolute maximums are especially significant. Perhaps they are for some people, but generally speaking it matters little to me if the enemy is in a 109G-10 or A6M2. Either way, I will not allow him to use his on paper advantages.
Sustained climb is useful for avoiding a fight, it means little if you're already engaged. Going vertical with a Co-E Hellcat isn't the best choice, simply because for the first 2-3k, the Hellcat's superior zoom (momentum) means even the G-10 will initially lose ground. It will be dead long before sustained climb is a factor.
Understanding momentum and its importance to energy convergence is valuable. Dive acceleration is also important. A fighter that might have only average acceleration in level flight, just might be a monster in a dive. I've tested the F6F-6 against the Tempest and La-7 offline for dive acceleration, doing the same test described below. Neither of those can accelerate from 200 to 450 mph in a dive as fast as the F6F.
I posted the following elsewhere on this BBS two days ago:
Early this tour I was flying a sortie in the Havoc near a fairly large furball. It was nearly dark and I was just below 8k (ground elevation was around 2K). I spot a 109 heading my way, about 1k higher. I was slightly nose-up when we passed on the merge, speed around 300 mph. We both reversed, but I got around much faster and the 109 went nose-low to avoid the coming deflection shot. I turned onto his 6 about 1.1k behind, accelerating rapidly nose-down. I had 425 mph in a heartbeat. Clearly surprised to see my A-20 actually closing, the 109 did what most of them do, he went vertical. So did I. Still the range came down. I was at just 700 yards back when he pulled thru and headed down again. It's here that I can finally identify the 109 as a G-10. As before, I followed, and once again he could not open the gap. Up he goes into a loop, the big Havoc eating distance and getting ever closer. This time he stays in the dive longer. I ease into a far less steep dive headed for where I figure he'll be when he finally pulls out. Rolling inverted I watch him as he eases out and runs along just above the ground. The angle of my dive was just about perfect and he crosses under my nose at 300 yards. One short burst pulverizes the 109.
I did some simple off-line testing of the A-20's dive acceleration and zoom climb abilities. My criteria was this; climb to 15k, level at 200 mph. Go to full throttle while rolling inverted, pull through into vertical dive (a simple spit-S). Record the time required to get to 450 mph. This not only gauges dive acceleration but initial roll rate as well. Go throttle-up and begin roll when clock starts. I tested the La-7, Bf 109G-10, P-51D, Fw 190D-9, P-47D-30 and Tempest. Of these, the Tempest was the fastest by a very small margin, followed by the P-47D-30 and La-7 neck and neck. The other three were only fractions of a second behind. There is not enough difference to change the outcome should any one of them be chasing the any other of the group and already be in gun range. That done, I tried the A-20. Guess what? Despite its poor rate of roll, it beat all the fighters to 450 mph, by more than the entire spread between the whole group. As some have discovered to their great shock, you cannot escape out of gun range by diving from the A-20. It will run you down and kill you before you can generate enough speed to force the A-20 to back off. Let me repeat that, because I've heard a lot of whining and accusations of cheating over channel 1; It will run you down and kill you before you can generate enough speed to force the A-20 to back off.
I also used the same group to test zoom climb. This time, each aircraft was flown to 300 mph, level at 100 ft. Once the speed was stable, the throttle was chopped to idle and auto-climb engaged at the same time (for me, that means pushing a button on the throttle when the lever hits the aft stop). I added the Mosquito to the group for this test. The objective is to determine what aircraft gains the most altitude based solely upon its momentum.
All of the single engine fighters gained about 1,100 ft before nosing over, except the P-47D-30 which gained a tad more than 1,200 ft. The Mossie gained about 50 feet more than the Jug. However, the A-20 zoomed up past 1,700 ft, for a gain slightly over 1,600 feet! So what does that mean in combat? It means don't maneuver in the vertical with a Co-E A-20 unless you can out-turn it or are well out of gun range.
What's the point? The point is, never assume anything. Here's an example of what an inferior plane can do if the pilot understands his aircraft's capabilities. Tonight, a Rook took up an A-20 to defend a field be swarmed by Bish (A167, BigIlses). He managed to kill a Dora, 2 La-7s, P-51D, A6M5, Spit9 and a P-38. That's three of the 5 on the list. He finally lost the A-20 when another La-7 went for an HO.. He shot off the Lavochkin's wing but collided with the wreckage. He hadn't even been pinged before the collision. Every engagement began with the A-20 being lower and a heck of a lot slower than the enemy. Indeed, the A-20 is perfect bait. Now, if it's possible to handle these guys with a bomber, how worried should you be if you're flying a Hellcat?
The question was, "what are the best non-perked planes in the MA?"
Let's consider something besides pure speed, OK?
Jabo: Fw 190D-9 not of much value, limited to one bomb. La-7; useless. Typhoon; carries less ordnance than the F6F, although it has better guns. That's easily overcome by the six HVARS on the F6F. P-51D, exact same load as the F6F, but far less durable in the face of field ack or gunfire. Bf 109G-10, same as Dora.
Fighter: F6F turns circles around the "top five". It has better dive acceleration and zoom climb. It's far more durable than any of the others too. It has the best stall characteristics of the bunch by a significant margin. It's nearly impossible to pull off the wings in a high-speed dive and pullout. The F6F also has terrific high-speed control and handling, two things the G-10, La-7 and Typhoon lack. In exchange, the F6F is slower than all of the "top five", and they also have the edge in level acceleration and sustained climb. Only the Mustang has greater range.
If we include all the criteria of what constitutes a top five aircraft, I can't see how you could possibly exclude the F6F-5, or the P-38 for than matter. Moreover, I can see no reason to include the La-7 , Dora or 109G-10. They are simply "one trick ponies"; go like hell, shoot, go like hell some more. The problem is that some of you guys have a very narrow view of what constitutes the "best non-perked plane."
My regards,
Widewing
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Hey widewing lets duel in hellcats in the DA, I wanna fight somebody good. Lets do it right now. :)
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Mr. Widewing, why do you think the F6F never saw service in the ETO? Why do you think the P-38 had such limited success in the ETO? The same reason why these planes were so successful against their slower Japanese opponents in the PTO; speed and climb.
Why do you think I would even engage your F6F in an equal E state? I would just keep my distance gaining more E climbing above you before engaging. If at any time I considered you to be a threat I would extend and build up more E again. Against me in a 109G10 you would never get to fight on your terms, I would use my plane's strengths and force you to play my game, and I could disengage anytime I want. That's what makes the F6F inferior to the "top five", against a pilot who knows his plane and knows ACM the F6F is a death-trap. You can of course furball the F6F very successfully because of the abilities you mentioned, but against a "hunter" you're toast ... or ignored.
The F6F can carry the same ord as the P-51, but which plane has the best chance of reaching the target without being intercepted, the 380 mph F6F or the 435 mph P-51? Which plane has the best chance of getting away on the deck after dropping ord, the 320 mph F6F or the 360 mph P-51? The P-51 is clearly the better Jabo of the two.
EDIT: The 1941 model 109F4 is a very good match for the F6F in the fighter role ... except that the 109 is faster, climbs better and turns better at all altitudes of course. In performance the F6F is almost 4 years behind the 109G10. ;)
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Yes in furball Spit 5 is good, F6F I think too.... But when we talking about good fighting startegy - speed is most important, then climb and then acceleration and fireporwer an then turn ratio.
We know well all next planes generations are faster climbs better and turnw worster why? Because speed is finaly suprior factor in combat. The slow one in offenceive. I'm not talking that F6F or Spit 9 can't kill fast planes if they make mistakes - especialy at MA when you see a lot of furballs. But if you use right tactics faster planes will be suprior
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Co-alt, Co-E and particularly at high alt, I would face any of the selected planes in a Spit IX. No question about it, - Spit IX is the best :D
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Originally posted by GScholz
Mr. Widewing, why do you think the F6F never saw service in the ETO?
Wrong :)
http://www.rcaf.com/aircraft/database/hellcat.htm
Hellcats first saw operational service with the Royal Navy during anti-shipping strikes off the coast of Norway
tss tss ;)
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Originally posted by Widewing
Good SA is everything. Why do you think so many fly the fast fighters, especially new players? Cheap insurance for when their SA isn't very good. Of course, there are riders attached to that policy which states that coverage is not extended to encounters with Hellcats piloted by Mathman or Wadke or Hooligan and a few others listed in the fine print.
Fine, you're a great pilot. Doesn't mean the F6F belongs in the top 5. :) Obviously pilot skill plays a huge factor unless we are talking about P-26's against X-Wings.
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Ok, Lets stop this,
We are not talking about most popular plane or dweeb plane or experienced pilots plane. My fried from the squadron flyes Spit 5 and lands with lot of kills and enjoyes this fight. He likes turn and burn fight. Does it put the plane into top 5? No.
We can talk a lot about expirience of pilots and it is true that Spit 5 can kill Mustang easily if Mustang makes mistake. That is like I killed once Spit 14 in Ju87 Stuka when it tryed to turnfight me ;)
This is well known what is supriority. Yes planes could be good but not equal in their perfomances to other better planes.
So give me a favor don't put to this therad planes like Spit IX or N1K of F6F - they good for furballing in MA but they can not be compared to high perfomance planes.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Why do you think the P-38 had such limited success in the ETO? The same reason why these planes were so successful against their slower Japanese opponents in the PTO; speed and climb.
It was because they had trouble adapting the engines to the bloody english weather.
Don't underestimate the ability of the 38 to climb. I'd wager about a third of my kills come from forcing a stall in someone who has done just that. I'd be interested in seeing how the 38 does in WideWing's momentum climb tests.
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Originally posted by artik
This is well known what is supriority. Yes planes could be good but not equal in their perfomances to other better planes.
So give me a favor don't put to this therad planes like Spit IX or N1K of F6F - they good for furballing in MA but they can not be compared to high perfomance planes.
I think that's exactly what's being argued. You said "discussion" in your initial post; people are discussing.
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Originally posted by Angus
Co-alt, Co-E and particularly at high alt, I would face any of the selected planes in a Spit IX. No question about it, - Spit IX is the best :D
Hehe, I would actually agree with this statement. Co-alt and Co-E I would not engage a Spit9. 1 on 1 the Spit9 is a formidable opponent at altitude which is why I tend to ignore them, and that's also why the Spit9 don't make it to the "top five" in my book; it can be ignored.
In a Co-alt, Co-E fight between the best 5 109G10 pilots and the best 5 Spit9 pilots, my money is on the 109's.
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A lot of players forget that you should compare not 1 vs 1 fight. But flight of 2 groups of players that know how to coaperate one with other - clean up their 6 etc...
Today I flew in 109g10 over 6-7 planes that was in furball flying over base and vulching - most of them US navy planes and few Spits - they just could do nothing to me. twice I got Spit on my 6 at distace of 500 yards and what - little dive - grab speed and it is far... far away. then climb and return back for next hunting up to Ifinished my ammo ;)
Slow planes just could be ignored.
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Originally posted by Rutilant
Blackout turns at 450 my pasty white arse!
Full control to 600? what sim are YOU flying? :eek:
A virtual Messerschmitt/Bayerische Flugzeugwerke Bf109-G10. If you trim manually the 109G10 is fully controllable in pitch at 500 mph, but roll will be a bit sluggish. I didn't say it has "full control" to 600 mph, I said it didn't lock completely up untill approx. 600 mph, meaning you still have some control. Manual trim is alpha and omega in the 109G10.
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Originally posted by GScholz
In a Co-alt, Co-E fight between the best 5 109G10 pilots and the best 5 Spit9 pilots, my money is on the 109's.
Oh yeah, definitely-- G10 >> Spit9. Now, G10 vs. Spit14, that seems like a pretty close matchup. But I guess Spit14 is perked or whatever.
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The P-51D would have to get my vote. No single aircraft in AH is best at everything but when you look at the P-51D it simply has so many strengths and few weaknesses. Lots of the advantages it has aren't even performance related, things like the awesome view from the canopy enhancing your SA, just to name one.
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Originally posted by artik
Discussion:
Best nonperked planes in MA - top 5:
Artik, IMO it depends on the role of the plane, best non perked planes is not equal to best non perked fighters, best non perked interceptors, best non perked jabos, and so on.
If you mean best non perked pure fighters, I would bet for the spit family. Best interceptors would be P38, G10, D9. Comparing a D9 with a spitIX is comparing apes with oranges, while both shine in their respective roles.
Probably the best balanced plane is the P51D.
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Mr. Widewing, why do you think the F6F never saw service in the ETO? Why do you think the P-38 had such limited success in the ETO? The same reason why these planes were so successful against their slower Japanese opponents in the PTO; speed and climb.
I suspect that you have not done very much reading on the topic of the air war in WWII, beyond devouring the volumes published by the Luftwaffe apologists.
Why wasn't the F6F deployed to the ETO? Silly question when one considers that the F6F was a Navy fighter, deployed almost exclusively aboard carriers. When carriers did deploy, the Hellcat deployed. Brits flew the the F6F-3 and FAA Hellcats covered the RN aerial attack in the Tirpitz (in a Norwegian fjord, by the way LOLOLOL). This early model and less capable Hellcat Mk.I more than held its own against the Luftwaffe in this instance.
During Operation Anvil/Dragoon (the amphibious invasion of south France), it was U.S. Hellcats that provided air cover over the invasion beaches and butchered everything that tried to break through their cover. They also conducted close support for the ground forces and neutralized Luftwaffe opposition in the area.
As to the P-38, the Lightning's history in the ETO is very much misunderstood. Dr. Carlo Kopp and I co-authored an indepth study on P-38 operations in the ETO. It was published in Air Power International. A less extensive, edited version of the story can be viewed on my website at: Der Gabelschwanz Teufel (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html)
I suggest you read it before you try to make any argument about the P-38.
Why do you think I would even engage your F6F in an equal E state? I would just keep my distance gaining more E climbing above you before engaging. If at any time I considered you to be a threat I would extend and build up more E again. Against me in a 109G10 you would never get to fight on your terms, I would use my plane's strengths and force you to play my game, and I could disengage anytime I want. That's what makes the F6F inferior to the "top five", against a pilot who knows his plane and knows ACM the F6F is a death-trap. You can of course furball the F6F very successfully because of the abilities you mentioned, but against a "hunter" you're toast ... or ignored.
By "Hunter", I assume from your description of tactics that this means a cherry picker, alt monkey, Luft-runner, right? ;)
Read you own words. What you are saying is; "I'm afraid of the F6F-6, so I'll simply haul butt away until I can catch him unawares or at a serious disadvantage."
What do you do if you discover a Hellcat 5k above you? Let's see you disengage from that one. It'll chase down your G-10 and ruin your evening.
I usually find myself below the enemy... So what? If they wish to engage me, they will have to slow down their lawn dart to do so. Unless, you limit your "engaging" to zooming down, taking a half-assed shot at something that's no longer there, then zoom away... How dull.
If the F6F-5 is a death trap, someone should have told me before and I wouldn't have bothered maintaining a 20+/1 K/D in it for the past year.... :rolleyes:
The F6F can carry the same ord as the P-51, but which plane has the best chance of reaching the target without being intercepted, the 380 mph F6F or the 435 mph P-51? Which plane has the best chance of getting away on the deck after dropping ord, the 320 mph F6F or the 360 mph P-51? The P-51 is clearly the better Jabo of the two.
I can see that you have little understanding how combat aircraft are flown in the real world. Unlike AH, pilots rarely fly around with the throttle against the stops. Really, they didn't.
Any aircraft hauling nearly 3,000 pound of under-wing ordnance, plus internal fuel and ammunition will be transiting to the target at cruise settings, typically something between 250 and 275 mph.
Usually, the aircraft making the attack will have fighter cover, usually a high cover. Clearly your understanding of an attack profile is based solely upon what you know from this game, and this game is not a remotely accurate simulation of the real world in this regard.
Moreover, you are once again placing emphasis on running, right? Better to be flying a fast plane to escape in... What about fighting your way out if need be?
EDIT: The 1941 model 109F4 is a very good match for the F6F in the fighter role ... except that the 109 is faster, climbs better and turns better at all altitudes of course. In performance the F6F is almost 4 years behind the 109G10. ;)
Somewhere in my library I have a test performed by the RAF where they compared a Hellcat Mk.I against a captured Bf 109F. I recall that the 109 had the advantage in sustained climb up to about 20k, where it evened out. The 109 wasn't faster at all. This test also gave the edge to the Hellcat in turning ability. Are you aware that the pitot tube static port on the F6F was incorrectly positioned? At 15k, the F6F-3 was only a few MPH slower than the F4U-1, and this was proven by both the Navy and Grumman who flew the two alongside during comparison tests. The error was a much as 20 mph and was not corrected on the F6F-5. There is also an FAA Naval Air Tactical Note Number 106, which quotes a maximum speed of 409 mph at 21,600 feet for the F6F-5/Hellcat Mk.II. All of this is well documented.
My experience flying the 109F leads me to conclude that it cannot hang in a stall fight with the Hellcat and its sub 100 mph stall and benign handling.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Hey widewing lets duel in hellcats in the DA, I wanna fight somebody good. Lets do it right now. :)
We've had some good brawls in the CT, FM-2 vs Hurricane, 109G2 vs La-5. Always fun, always a tough fight. Those FM-2/Hurricane II fights were a revelation (we found that the FM-2 had the edge).
One night when we're both up, we can go the the DA and have a ball. Hellcats, 109s, 190s, Hurris, whatever suits us at the moment.
Cya up there my friend!
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
We've had some good brawls in the CT, FM-2 vs Hurricane, 109G2 vs La-5. Always fun, always a tough fight. Those FM-2/Hurricane II fights were a revelation (we found that the FM-2 had the edge).
One night when we're both up, we can go the the DA and have a ball. Hellcats, 109s, 190s, Hurris, whatever suits us at the moment.
Cya up there my friend!
My regards,
Widewing
When do you usually fly Widewing? I dont fly often these days and when I do it's just for a sortie or two so it might be hard to bump into you just by chance..
And I still remember that FM2/Hurri fight it was close and fun. :)
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Originally posted by mos
Don't underestimate the ability of the 38 to climb. I'd wager about a third of my kills come from forcing a stall in someone who has done just that. I'd be interested in seeing how the 38 does in WideWing's momentum climb tests.
I tested the P-38 tonight, along with the P-47D-30, full gas, Bf 109G-10 and Tempest with full tanks and the F6F-6 also with full tanks. I also added the F4U-4 and my A-20 data with 50% fuel. For a lark, I threw in the A6M5b, but I had to nose down from 300 feet to get it up to 300 mph at 100 feet.
300 mph at 100 ft, chop throttle, engage auto-climb. Record peak altitude. Zero fuel burn.
Results are as follows.... Rounded up. Subtract 100 feet to obtain net gain. Remember, engines are at idle, so this reflects momentum. Clearly weight is the factor of note, but something else is contributing as the P-47D-30 weighs more than the F6F-5 as does the P-38L too. I suspect this may be related to elevator response or some unknown (to us) factor in the physics models.
A-20G: 1,725 ft (50% fuel)
F6F-5: 1,675 ft (Full tanks)
P-47D-30: 1,650 ft (Full tanks)
F4U-4: 1,600 ft (Full tanks)
P-38L: 1,375 ft (Full tanks)
Tempest: 1,200 ft (Full tanks)
Bf 109G-10: 1,175 ft (Full tanks)
A6M5b: 975 ft (Full tanks)
As you can see, if a Bf 109G-10 pilot goes vertical with any of the other aircraft (except the Zeke) while Co-E, they will all likely gain ground. The next question is, in a purely vertical climb, which aircraft stalls first while under full power. I'll try that some other time.
As it looks here, we can consider the F6F, F4U and P-47 a dead heat. Lagging a bit behind is the P-38. The Tempest and 109G-10 are also in a dead heat, but fall behind the heavyweight U.S. fighters quickly over the short term.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
When do you usually fly Widewing? I dont fly often these days and when I do it's just for a sortie or two so it might be hard to bump into you just by chance..
And I still remember that FM2/Hurri fight it was close and fun. :)
I'm usually in the MA 4-5 nights a week between 9 and 11 PM Eastern. Our Squad nights are Sunday and Tuesday, and I rarely miss one. Let me know when you expect to be online and I'll set aside some time. E-mail me at editor@ww2aviation.com (editor@ww2aviation.com) or here. (C.C.Jordan@worldnet.att.net)
My regards,
Widewing
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I've never thought of 6x50cal's as weak. Even 4x50cals is more then enough to get the job done.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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Originally posted by GODO
Artik, IMO it depends on the role of the plane, best non perked planes is not equal to best non perked fighters, best non perked interceptors, best non perked jabos, and so on.
If you mean best non perked pure fighters, I would bet for the spit family. Best interceptors would be P38, G10, D9. Comparing a D9 with a spitIX is comparing apes with oranges, while both shine in their respective roles.
Probably the best balanced plane is the P51D.
Interceptor/fighter - all interceptors will have to finaly have to deal with planes covering them. What is fighter - furballs? What? Can you tell me 109E was interseptor in BoB - its perfomance relation to Spit 1 same as 109g10 to Spit 9. Yes in furball Spit 9 is better but furballing - this in not main role of any aircraft.
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Originally Posted by Timras
Spit IX outturns, outaccelerates, outclimbs, and outguns the F6F. It is even slightly faster at most altitudes. The N1K2 has also most of these advantages over the F6F.
Never had a problem with them before ;)
GScholz i know u love the 109 hehe but i'll take a Hellcat against one any day....also to bring the Cat up to speed in a fight push her nose down a tad.....Little Tactic i learned: Before you get within icon range of a con (if possible......also meaning co-alt) dive down a little....The Hellcat is wonderful for hiding it's real speed....Also as Mathman says time and time again...Sometimes it's better to have more speed than more alt....
One more thing i haven't really ever had a problem 6 view in a hellcat
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Hellcat is a nice plane and very manuverable, I dont fly them much, practically never, but I imagine they would be good if light on fuel. I know I have been able to turn A6M5s and Ki61 in them though on occasion.
It is very slow of course but I never get the sluggish feeling in one as I do in 47, which I think is a bigger problem.
Comparing it to Bf109F, they are close in speed, 109 climbs a bit better, acells better, I bet hellcat turns better and prolly rolls better. The deciding factor IMO would be how quickly the 109F is able to inflict damage on the tough hellcat because as the fight goes on the hellcats turning/roll advantage and 50cal reach will begin to tell.
Vs a 109G10 of course the difference is speed/climb/acell vs turn/roll, but hugely magnified. The firepower issue is largely nullified if you know how to use the 30mm. I feel if the 109G10 is able to equalize e-states it should be able to dominate the fight by climbing to gain advantage. Even then the hellcat can still give trouble to the 109s attacks due to its manuverabilty and 50 cals. This would be somewhat similar to fighting a SpitIX in a G10.
However I do feel that this game or perhaps all sims overdo the turning/maunver/aerobatics aspect because you dont die or fly in formation and follow orders or such things so you can afford to get cute practing tricks that get you killed many times untill you figure them out.
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Originally posted by artik
Yes in furball Spit 9 is better but furballing - this in not main role of any aircraft.
You used the world "furballing", not me. I would use "air superiority" fighter. And yes, that is a different role than interceptor, mainly in WW2 terms where interception was mostly focused in catching up with bombers and destroying them. Look at the 190A development, first stages it was designed as an "air superioriry" figher to end its days as a very effective buff destroyer and a mediocre fighter.
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Bahahahahaheheheh ... eh ... well. I'll get back to you Widewing you bastidge ;) (re-softing my system now).
(http://r1329776.hostultra.com/Upload/data/media/1/GSkillDrex01_800x600.jpg)
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I guess it is just me, but it seems to be fairly obvious what the "best 5" fighters are. Just look at what 5 planes always finish numbers 1,2,3,4, and 5 in the kill lists every month.
People fly them for a reason.
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(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/images/f4u1c.gif)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/images/p47d30.gif)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/images/mossie6.gif)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/images/110g2.jpg)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/images/190a8.gif)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/images/n1k2j.gif)
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The ultimate vulcher
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_154_1067954275.jpg)
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I luv these comparisons of disimliar aircraft types.
Unless higher than 25K I wouldn't want to co-alt a F6F-5 in a 109 of any sort. Unless you plan on hit and run or just run victory especially in equal loading states would be very difficult for the 109.
Here is a big reason you probably didn't think of.
A F6F carries 1500LBS of fuel and 750lbs of ammo. If you give the F6F the same weight of fuel and ammo in combat with any 109 the differance in rate of climb and power loading is much less. Wingloading and turning ability already in favor of the Hellcat become even more one sided.
The 109 had enough trouble against the P-47 why do you think it would be different against the F6F?
BTW the F6F recorded several kills in the ETO and the F4F had even greater success as it saw more combat.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I guess it is just me, but it seems to be fairly obvious what the "best 5" fighters are. Just look at what 5 planes always finish numbers 1,2,3,4, and 5 in the kill lists every month.
People fly them for a reason.
Ok that is the most important point. There is big difference between most popular fighter and air supriority fighter.
How much pilots in AH really know to fly 109G10 - not a lot - it is hard plane to hande but absolutly suprior on Spits and N1K that popular in MA. Give to new pilot Mustang or 109g10 he will die faster then if he will get Spit because it is much easyer plane and turnfighting easyer tactics that not forces you to comapre all the time the energy of you and your enemy, BnZ tactics forces you to think a lot when the turnfighting tactics - has another name - dogfight.
I don't want to tell that you have not to be skilled for turnfighting or not have to think.. don't understand me wrong but to flying air supriority fighter you have to be more skilled.
Originaly posted by GODO
I would use "air superiority" fighter
Yes I think it is right term - air supriority fighter.
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No, people don't fly them because they are "easier"... people fly them because they are better. It is plain and simple. Have you ever fought a Spit IX co-E (same starting alt, reasonably close starting speeds) in a 109G-10? You'll find that you will have a very difficult time defeating one if the pilot knows just about anything. For instance.. if the Spit pilot knows to keep turning in one direction once you get on his tail, you had better be real good at deflection shooting. And with the 109s anemic firepower, you better be REAL good at deflection shooting. An "ace" in a Spit IX will kill an "ace" in a 109 every time unless the 109 simply runs away. In that case he still loses, since the goal is to shoot down your enemy, not run from him.
People fly the La-7 because it is the best fast plane. People fly the Spit IX and N1K2 because they are the best slow planes. People fly the P-51 because it isn't half bad, and it has newbie appeal. The newbies go on to "graduate" to the La-7. The fifth plane changes from time to time, but it is usually the Typhoon, because it can kill fuel pretty easily, and a snapshot is a certain kill.
Compare the 109G10 to the La-7 (in game, I couldn't tell you how they stack up in real life). The La-7 is faster, accelerates better, has more firepower, turns better, and climbs just as well. So why on earth would someone fly the 109G10 instead? The obvious (not to mention correct) answer is, they wouldn't. This is why the La-7 usually gets 2-3 times the kills the 109 gets. Actually, the only reason anyone flies any plane other than the La-7, Spit IX, P-51D, or N1K2 is because they think they are good and they wouldn't want anyone to assume it is all because of the plane they are flying. In my opinion of course.
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What can I tell you 1 vs 1 fight of 109g10 and Spit 9 really hard... making good deflection shoots is one of the most importants points of BnZ tactics. Yes it isn't easy to fly 1 vs 1 but what heppens when it is 2 vs 2?
All changes. One helps other using his suprior speed. And if Spit 9 gets on your 6 in short time your wingmen is going to clean you and if Spit will not make hard turns he will be shut down EASYLY. Spit 9 will allways in offencive and not engage. That makes all difference. How many players in MA do actualy winging - not a lot. Most of them fly alone.
I had lot of good fights where both of us returned home with nothing fighting 109 vs Spit - both were good. Yes but 109 desides when to engage and when to exit fight. Spit dosn't and that makes all the difference
By the way about La7 it is really excelent plane but.... over 10K it looses all its perfomance - in climb and in speed. That is its weak point. If I'm in 109 fighting La7 I'll force him to clib if he stays low he will get me energy advantage if does it will give me speed advantage. Yes La7 is excelent and has his place in top 5.
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Originally posted by Urchin
...] because they think they are good and they wouldn't want anyone to assume it is all because of the plane they are flying. In my opinion of course.
??
they're too easy = boring. Only time this does not apply is when you burn out on your fav plane, or the 262 which doesn't count.
making good deflection shoots is one of the most importants points of BnZ tactics.
But in the case of G10:MkIX, BnZ will not happen since the 'IX has no trouble staying in reach of the G10. Same story with 2:2, except for fluke wins, the G10s will always have more than a handful to be able to go lend their wingman a hand safely.
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F4U-D Jabo
F4U-4 - Buff Hunter
F4U-C- snap shot serial killer.
F4U-1, long range duty
Jug-11- mixing it up in general...
..for those that like a real challenge...everything else is just a toy :)
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People fly the P-51 because it isn't half bad, and it has newbie appeal. The newbies go on to "graduate" to the La-7
Awww shoot. I never graduated!
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Originally posted by Steve
Awww shoot. I never graduated!
LOL typical Minnesoootan!
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Originally posted by Widewing
As to speed, it's every bit as fast as the Fw 190A-5 above 5k. It can reach 402 mph between 20 - 21k.
My regards,
Widewing
I thought this sounded suspect, so I looked at the speed chart at netaces.
The f6f is not as fast as a FWa5 @5k. Over 8k the Hellkitty can match the FW only with the f6 on wep and the FW on regular power.
The f6fs top speed is around 385mph on wep, and that happens below 20k.
The FWa5 reaches 410mph with wep @ around 20k.
This is not intended to be a flame. But your information is incorrect I believe. For AH anyway.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Actually, the only reason anyone flies any plane other than the La-7, Spit IX, P-51D, or N1K2 is because they think they are good and they wouldn't want anyone to assume it is all because of the plane they are flying. In my opinion of course.
Actually, I fly the P38 because it's the best plane of the war. When I think "WWII fighter" I think of the Lightning first and foremost.
In my opinion of course.
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when i hear those wonder words p-38 lightning i think ...
smurfy POS :aok
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Ki-61-I-KAIc Strong - most beautiful Japanese Fighter. Weak - poor speed at low alt and high alt, unbelievable climb rate, bad roll rate, very bad acceleration it means it's really hard to get energy in this plane, it can't turn like spit because weight balance is worse, and weight is much heavier than early type of Ki-61, unstable control at low speed, poor guns, it runs out ammo very quickly. this plane should be used as glider.
But I love it.
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What Mitsu said...and it's got a really cool paint job :).
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Originally posted by Urchin
Actually, the only reason anyone flies any plane other than the La-7, Spit IX, P-51D, or N1K2 is because they think they are good and they wouldn't want anyone to assume it is all because of the plane they are flying. In my opinion of course.
Actually, I ran into you and AGJV44 and Wotan early into my flight sim experience. Somehow you guys managed to convince me that the LW stuff was better than everything else in the game. Being the newb that I was, I naturaly wanted every advantage I could get. Little did I know...........:eek:
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Originally posted by moot
Vulch machines
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/images/190a8.gif)
My favorite:D
Yes, I'm reading the thread backwards.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Results are as follows.... Rounded up. Subtract 100 feet to obtain net gain. Remember, engines are at idle, so this reflects momentum. Clearly weight is the factor of note, but something else is contributing as the P-47D-30 weighs more than the F6F-5 as does the P-38L too. I suspect this may be related to elevator response or some unknown (to us) factor in the physics models.
A-20G: 1,725 ft (50% fuel)
F6F-5: 1,675 ft (Full tanks)
P-47D-30: 1,650 ft (Full tanks)
F4U-4: 1,600 ft (Full tanks)
P-38L: 1,375 ft (Full tanks)
Tempest: 1,200 ft (Full tanks)
Bf 109G-10: 1,175 ft (Full tanks)
A6M5b: 975 ft (Full tanks)
My regards,
Widewing
Interesting info. I'm curious what the results would be with the same setup, but set auto-speed to 100 mph, and climb with full throttle and WEP, no flap deployment. CT off would be nice, but keeping the settings of each plane the same would be difficult I guess. I've never done comparison tests, so someone more accustomed to the process would be more appropriate I suppose.
Any takers??
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Originally posted by Widewing
Understand that the F6F-5 is not the best in any single category. But, it is very, very good in every category. Good enough to be extremely dangerous in any Co-E, Co-alt engagement regardless of what it encounters.
Another of my favorites, and easily the most under-rated fighter in the game, is the Ki-61.
My regards,
Widewing [/B]
The forgotten favorite, the Macchi C205. It is not the best at anything (other than causing the opponent to relax when it sees that icon), but it is very good at just about everything. Definately not top 5, but deserves an honorable mention.
Kinda funny, but co-alt and co-E, the f6f probably gives me the most trouble when I'm flying that little Italian job.
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The macchi has some very good attributes, but I just never could get past the cockpit. It is so restrictive. I guess it just didnt lend to my type of flying in which I rely heavily on the snapshot.
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Originally posted by Nomak
I thought this sounded suspect, so I looked at the speed chart at netaces.
The f6f is not as fast as a FWa5 @5k. Over 8k the Hellkitty can match the FW only with the f6 on wep and the FW on regular power.
The f6fs top speed is around 385mph on wep, and that happens below 20k.
The FWa5 reaches 410mph with wep @ around 20k.
This is not intended to be a flame. But your information is incorrect I believe. For AH anyway.
HTC has under-modeled the F6F-5. It had considerably better performance than we see in AH. Earlier in this thread, I wrote the following:
"Somewhere in my library I have a test performed by the RAF where they compared a Hellcat Mk.I against a captured Bf 109F. I recall that the 109 had the advantage in sustained climb up to about 20k, where it evened out. The 109 wasn't faster at all. This test also gave the edge to the Hellcat in turning ability. Are you aware that the pitot tube static port on the F6F was incorrectly positioned? At 15k, the F6F-3 was only a few MPH slower than the F4U-1, and this was proven by both the Navy and Grumman who flew the two alongside during comparison tests. The error was a much as 20 mph and was not corrected on the F6F-5. There is also an FAA Naval Air Tactical Note Number 106, which quotes a maximum speed of 409 mph at 21,600 feet for the F6F-5/Hellcat Mk.II. All of this is well documented."
Grumman test numbers were even better with 412 mph being recorded.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing Are you aware that the pitot tube static port on the F6F was incorrectly positioned? At 15k, the F6F-3 was only a few MPH slower than the F4U-1, and this was proven by both the Navy and Grumman who flew the two alongside during comparison tests. [/B]
I also have that data. Don't let the F6F fool ya :)
Gainsie
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oh man...please tell me this thread isn't about the positioning of a pitot tube.....
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1. P47-D30
2. P47-D25
3. P47-D11
4. F4U-1
5. FW190-A5
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I'd put the D-11 at the top if my Jug rides. And the F4U-1 ahead of the jug-by a nose :)