Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on August 13, 2000, 05:28:00 PM
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10 football fields.
hell even 500 yards= 5 football fields is a hell of a rediculously long ways to hit anything.
now I like to pretend that us AH peoples have more experience and are just better at shooting than those old ww2 rookies but seriously (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I couldnt even hit a stationary target 5 football fields away much less a moving one.
its still to easy to hit long ranges of 600-1000 yards in AH in my opinion after I had this revalation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hate to admit it, but you got a point there. I wouldnt be able tell a wing from the nose of a plane at that distance. Hmmm...
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True, but then again, how many of us have gone target shooting with 50 cal. machine guns? Let alone 2, 6 or 8!
eskimo
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Citabria, good point. Now let's apply the same reasoning to the icons. Anybody think they can tell me the type and range (within 100 yards) of a little WW2 fighter plane that is 100 football fields away?
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Originally posted by eskimo:
True, but then again, how many of us have gone target shooting with 50 cal. machine guns? Let alone 2, 6 or 8!
eskimo
I have, but it was only 1 .50 cal, and it's hard as hell to hit Anything at that kind of range. i'll see if i can find one of my old pics of it and scan it for ya's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Shot a 25mm chain gun too, THAT was fun as hell (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hamish!
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/assassins2.gif)
<===<The ASSASSINS>===> (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
[This message has been edited by Hamish (edited 08-13-2000).]
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I dont mean to sound stupid here but isnt the distance on the tags in feet not yards?
Like I was under the impression that then the tag says 1.5 that is actually 1500 feet or roughly 500 yards?
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Todd "Stardog" Garner
A.K.A. WCsdog
Wild Cards V.F.S.
http://simshack.frugalsworld.com/Wildcards (http://simshack.frugalsworld.com/Wildcards)
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stardog 1.5 is 1500 yards not feet
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Stardog,
I believe it's metric. 1.5K = 1.5 kilometers = 1500 meters, roughly the same as 1500 yrds
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hmmmmm, interesting.
I know I can hit a clay pigeon between 30 - 40 yards away with over 90% accuracy.
A clay pigeon has about a 5 inch diameter and is very ez to aquire and track. An aircraft is about 50 times bigger, so a 400-600 yrd shot is very reasonable.....even a 1000 yrd "lucky shot".
The reason pilots got under 200 yards to take the kill shots is because their ammunition won't go where you aim it at distances greater than that for reasons of:
Wing flexing, ballistic properties of ammo, lethality of ammo at distance, atmospehric effects and so on.
The point is, you can easily see and aim your guns at an aircraft 1000 yrds away, but actually hitting or even causing fatal damage at distances over 500 yards is flukey - not because of eyesight limitations though.
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Wells, Stardog, go to your rooms with no supper. One of the HTC guys said it was yards on this here forum.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-14-2000).]
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I can hit the dude riding the ball pick-up cart at 200 yards at a driving range with only a golf ball and a club. Let him ride it out to 500 yrds and gimmee just one .50 caliber mg. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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Originally posted by wells:
Stardog,
I believe it's metric. 1.5K = 1.5 kilometers = 1500 meters, roughly the same as 1500 yrds
AH is the least game to have metrics at the moment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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well that clears a few things up then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
sorry but thanks for getting me straight on that
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Todd "Stardog" Garner
A.K.A. WCsdog
Wild Cards V.F.S.
http://simshack.frugalsworld.com/Wildcards (http://simshack.frugalsworld.com/Wildcards)
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500 yards is too long of a shot for a .50 cal? I think not. Snipers using .308 or 7mm Remington Magnum rifles can hit a target the size of a silver dollar at that range. Read some books about snipers in Vietnam. Dead Center, by Ed "Kug" Kugler, is a good one. In training with a Winchester Model 70 (30-06) he was hitting 105mm howtizer casings at 700 yards 8 out of 10 times. A single .50BMG round has enough kenetic punch to put some serious hurt on a V-6 engine block at 1,000 yards. Remember, we are talking about aluminium about 1/16 of an inch thick if that. You could put a .223 Remington round, fired from an M-16A2, through it at 400 yards with ease.
Flakbait
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10 Football Fields = 1000 yards = 3000 feet = the length of the grass strip I fly out of.
When I'm holding in position and looking out over the nose at a Mooney turning at the end of the runway/field boundary and 500' in the air.....
I'm continually amazed at the detail I can see on the departing aircraft......
and I hope that someday, with my 5 Gig processor with 2 Gigs of RAM coupled to my 1 Gig video card running AH on my 55" high-definition monitor....
I'll be able to see the target aircraft that clearly.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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When I was a young lad of 12, I was at the range with my Dad and my new Model 94 30/30 Winchester with standard open sights. I put a 12 guage shotgun shell on a nail on the target backing at 100yds and shot it off with my first shot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I put it back up and shot it of again with my second shot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Thats iron sights and a kid whose shoulder hurt every time I fired it...and a target the size of your thumb.
None of that is exactly analagous to A to A gunnery but it certainly seems possible you could hit a plane sized target with that much lead flying. Just another perspective... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
kbman
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hi all:
i think 1k is 1000ft, not yards.
anything and evrything is in feet when it comes to aircraft, not in yards. so your target that is .300 away from you is only one football field away, 1k is 3.33 football fields away.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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Hm, well, I've been at one end of a runway and had a small 2 engine plane take off from the other side (field was 900 meters) and I found it quite easy to distinguish the plane in the distance.
Dunno if I would hit it though; prolly not (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Originally posted by eskimo:
True, but then again, how many of us have gone target shooting with 50 cal. machine guns? Let alone 2, 6 or 8!
eskimo
Well, been there, done that (Used to be in Mech Infantry back in 1988-89). .50's are not realy using a straight path (you actualy have quite a spraying cone) but then, with a decent ROF , who needs to aim ?
(FYI, we used to shoot at "dead APCs at a range of 400-600 yds")
Saw
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Originally posted by Citabria:
stardog 1.5 is 1500 yards not feet
Not trying to start any kind of arguement Cit, but when ur tags appear it's roughly around 8.5 distance. If that was yards, then that's roughly 27,000 ft that you begin to see the enemy plane.
8500 ft seems much more likely the case for the 8.5 distance. And if it was yards, then once you hit 1.0 (yards?) your display turns to ft? Doesn't make any since.
For a newbie (to this game) I'm now going to work completely confused..hehe
Wingnut
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ALL AH distances are in yards.
D8.5 is 8,500 yds (about 25,500 feet or close enough to 5 miles)
D1 is 1000 yds
When under 1000 yds the range counter clicks off individual yards(659, 658 etc)
Not feet, not metres ... YARDS!!!!
Oh, and Citabria, if you REALLY want to get an idea of just how 'laser-like' the AH guns are, jump in your car one day, drive to a nice long straight road. Drive 600 yds down the road from a marked spot then look back to that spot.
And tell me you could hit a fighter-sized target at that distance with a machine gun/s from a gun platform which is subject to all the vagaries of turbulence, wind direction, stick movements etc.
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix (http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix)
Aces High Training Corps
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 08-14-2000).]
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I know they have a nice scope for the .50Cal sniper rifle. YOu look through the scope and you don't exactly get a panorama, but an expanded view. If you push forward a little bit it zooms in.
I know it is pretty possible to hit someone in the nose at 1200 yards with that sniper rifle.
(It has a computer that adjusts for windage too.)
I believe that someone said Bubbi could hit at 1100 yards with the machine guns in his 109 (Though he preffered to be less than 100 yards.)
Also I believe somone flying U.S. Iron said that the .50s could hit at 1800 yards and do damage. (I don't remember who.)
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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I'm saying I couldn't and that no one else in a ww2 fighter could either in all but the rarest of instances
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1.5k = 1500 Yards
under 1.0k we switch to yard increments i.e.
500 = 500 yards.
And 1 misconception about dispersion of bullets is that it makes it harder to hit at longer ranges.
In reality dispersion effects can make it easyer to hit at longer ranges, but harder to inflict lethal damage.
And I somtimes wonder if we are all playing the same game. For me to hit someone at 1k he has to be straight and level. And on a realy good day 1 out of 10 of my burst will show some pings. Which would translate into some where like 1 out of 500 rounds .
Is this simlar to what most people can do?
Id like to see some films of all the 1k and longer shots people make. Might help my gunnery.
HiTech
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Just yesterday got killed by a 900 yards away F4U1C, despite the fact that I was on a shallow climbing turn to the left.
2 pings wing gone bye bye. I was on a Me109G10 with no damage at all.
Sadly, no film. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-14-2000).]
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Try moving at 2000+ feet per second (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
10 football fields gets small aweful quick at those speeds.
Problem is that 4,6 or 8 wing/cowl mounted guns are gonna give you some serious dispertion at that extreme range.
I recently fired a parting burst at a 190 flying a F4U-1C, Saw 5-7 hits starting at 900 indicated range. Saw no smoke or damaged pieces.
The 190 escaped
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-14-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
Just yesterday got killed by a 900 yards away F4U1C, despite the fact that I was on a shallow climbing turn to the left.
2 pings wing gone bye bye. I was on a Me109G10 with no damage at all.
Sadly, no film. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-14-2000).]
900 yards on your FE, I would venture to guess between 600 and 800 yards on the enemy FE. Thats a reasonable kill to me. Also, 2 pings is what you heard, but 1 ping could represent 5 bullets hitting you.
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Overall I'd have to say that the long range gunnery in AH is spot on.
I used to regularly kill Crows with 1 shot at 300 to 400 yards with my varmint rifle (.243 handloads at 3100 muzzle fps 60 grain hollowpoints. True that was with a scoped rifle and a steady rest.
If anything kills to well at long range it's the buffs defensive guns and thats a play balance issue.
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HT I can get hits out to 750 or so if I use enough ammo. But all my killing is done at 500 on in. 250 seems to be my magic number.
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Originally posted by funked:
HT I can get hits out to 750 or so if I use enough ammo. But all my killing is done at 500 on in. 250 seems to be my magic number.
With Cannons, my majic number before I open up is about 400, however, post-fix version of the cannon Chog, I no longer can get any hits beyond D1.0, and anything out around 800-d1.0 yards is only flashes, not much damage done, and to hit at D1.0, that target has to be nice and level, or in a gentle climb.
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Yesterday a magic 50 cal hit me at D 1.6 (on my FE in a tail chase) and wounded me. That sets the record for damage on me from a fighter.
Vila
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Originally posted by Vila:
Yesterday a magic 50 cal hit me at D 1.6 (on my FE in a tail chase) and wounded me. That sets the record for damage on me from a fighter.
Vila
WOW! I haven't heard of that since beta, think it was the net? Were you low to the ground? (M16 in the area that you were not away of..?)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 08-14-2000).]
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"Id like to see some films of all the 1k and longer shots people make"
Well. I can't do it. Best I've ever had was when firing my P47's secondaries from 800 yds (shown on my FE) out, and even then I had my gunsite "X" about three inches ABOVE the flat running bogy in a vain effort to get a ping to make them break left or right. I got a couple of hit sprites.
Now, DIVING and shooting at another diving bogy I can get out a decent long range shot as gravity isn't working against me as it does in the horizontal.
-Westy
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Citabria;
And even anther way to look at it:
1000 yards =
1 football field + 3 B-17s (wingtip to wingtip) + 300 LP records + 21 old style VW bugs (bumper to bumper) + 4800 US pennies + 38 - 8' 2X4s + 3 locks of the Panama Canal (side-by-side) + the USN SS-314 Shark (WWII sub) + one of those really tall ancient redwood trees in California (Sequoia sempervirens) + Fishu's ego (est.).
Now that's something that I can visualize!
Eskimo
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RAM - I have an autobiography by a Canuck spit pilot who flew out of Malta, Sicily and Italy. He shot down a number of 109s (Fs and Gs), and in describing some of these actions he would say things like 'I saw a cannon flash on the 109, which I would normally expect to put it out of action' - one hit from a 20mm somewhere in the forward fuselage and he expected a kill. I don't think AH models planes too soft.
Next, Buzz Beurling regularly made long range kills, including an 800 yard shot on a Macchi 202. He hit it with 5 20mm shells in the cockpit area, and the plane wreck was later found and his report confirmed.
I've said it before, but when you consider how much practice your average AH player gets at air-to-air shooting you've gotta expect people to get very, very good at it, especially considering the safe environment and freedom of action that we have in the MA. No one should be surprised to see what would have been considered spectacular shots in RL happening on a regular basis in AH. A BIG plus is having the range displayed automatically for you. Fighter pilots spent hours studying plane silhouettes designed to train them at estimating ranges from different angles of approach. We don't have to consider that aspect at all.
As for dispersion - the more the shots spread out, the more likely you are to get some hits (like a spreading shotgun pattern). The hits are just not going to be as concentrated and therefore less effective or penetrative. If it only takes a few 20mm hits to put down a 109, then your experience, although a very rare occurance in RL, is to be expected in AH.
Fluf
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hi again:
the only real guns i have a problem with are the m-16's. had three of them shooting at me from 1.5k away, and was still taking minor hits when i could no longer see them.
as for shooting down planes, it does not matter how close or how far away the other guys is, does not matter what i have for guns. the other guy will not hold still or fly straight and level so i can shoot him, so i find it very hard to hit any thing.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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There are 2 main things to consider here.
#1 All these d1K plus kills are a bunch'a hooey. You all know it's damn hard to hit any sort of evading target at more than d500.
#2 We are firing an amazing amount of lead here. Envision more of a shotgun effect than laser beams. I've seen slow-mo video of rapid fire weapons and I tell ya it literally looks like a WALL of lead. I think the gunnery is damn good, only lag screws it up.
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flakbait. It was 40mm caseings. And they shot the fireing cap out of them. I saw this done.
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I agree with HT here. It's basically worthless to shoot at anything beyond 1k on your FE. You just waste too much ammo on shots that do little damage.
That said, the other day I took a radiator killing hit in a p51 from (no joke) 1.8k on my FE from a fighter. I think I've got a film of it. The only thing is I don't know if films show hits on your plane.
I'll look at my films and see if I can find it.
EDIT: I FOUND IT! Sure enough it shows me taking radiator damage at 1.7k on my FE.
Here's a little play by play, since this film is a LONG one. It starts off with me downing a b17 (Spivey) in one pass. Very cool looking too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The rest of the film is pretty much me getting chased all over the sector and avoiding con after con. Near the end of the film you will see a p47 close on me. At 1.9k distance you will see me begin some light evasives. I WAS taking hits at that distance. At 1.7k I lose my radiator. (In the film you will see ack shooting at the con, but when it actually happened I know our ack was down. The rooks were heavily vulching the area. Luckly/Unfortunately a friendly m16 managed to get the p47 to break off my tail. Since I knew I was already dead I attempted to take a N1k with me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Unfortunately I only hit him once and he got the p51's paper rudder. That ended the film. A few things to notice: The p47 in question was closing very slowly. I cannot imagine his FE showing a distance of less than 1.5k. Second, there were no other cons that could have hit me at this particular moment.
Unfortunately I was correct in that films do not show hits on your airplane, but you can tell when I start receiving hits by my evasives.
Here's the zipped film: (450k or so) Unzipped is just over 550k if anyone wants it as well.
longkill.zip (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/longkill.zip)
I would like to hear what the rest of you think.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 08-15-2000).]
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ya know Carlos took out a bicycle frame out at 1000 yds with a 50 cal from a boy carrying guns up with one bullet now if ya fire 200 at 5000 yds. you are bound to hit something no matter how bad a shot you are. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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av8or is right except one thing, he shot the bike out from under the kid . But when the 12 y/o started picking up the weapons that he had spilled he made himself a combatant . Carlos killed him with the next shot, but from a confirmed range of over 2000 meters away !!! And it wasn't with a rifle either, it was a browning M2 machine gun on single shot .
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Originally posted by av8or:
ya know Carlos took out a bicycle frame out at 1000 yds with a 50 cal from a boy carrying guns up with one bullet now if ya fire 200 at 5000 yds. you are bound to hit something no matter how bad a shot you are. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I read that book too! If I remember correctly he aimed directly for the part of the bike where the forks slide into the frame and nailed it in one shot.
Mox
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Hmmmm, I always thought that the range was measured in feet, not yards or meters.
So what your really telling me is: that wasn't 1600 ft when the buff killed you with two pings, it was 1600 meters. Hmmmm?
...Weav
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YARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!
GRRR
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Originally posted by eskimo:
True, but then again, how many of us have gone target shooting with 50 cal. machine guns? Let alone 2, 6 or 8!
eskimo
Eskimo,
I have done this very thing. The 50 Cal is mounted on the top of a tank as an AA gun and for "light skinned" vehicles. 800 yards is considered a long range for point shooting and that is using a magnifier sight, such as the periscope sight in a M60 class cupula mount, against a non moving target. This is a real training issue for armor crews on a tank range. The technique was to sight in as well as possible, fire a burst (10 - 20 rounds) and see where they impacted. To get a hit you had to put the truck (or whatever target shape was used) in the "beaten zone". It was not uncommon after a full day of firing from a tank company (16 / 17 tanks) to go and look the target over to see it had very few holes in it. (Targets were plywood cutouts to save money. Real steel targets like vehicle hulks were MUCH more satisfying as they gave off hit flashes.) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I agree that long range hits here are easy. I think it is a playability issue. If no one could hit the target we would all get bored fairly quickly and go play something else.
HTC (et all) is in this both for the fun AND the money. It is a business after all and if they don't make enough to have a reasonable profit we won't HAVE a sim to play. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
Lets just play and not pick too many nits.
Mav
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 08-15-2000).]
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I found that the 800mtr pop up plastic silouettes at the m60 qualification range went down surprisingly easy . Then again that was a shoulder fired weapon .
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Bob Tuck damaged a Ju88 (smoked an engine) at just under 1000 yards with 8x 0.303's.