Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Squire on November 02, 2003, 03:45:30 PM
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THAT, felt like a 1941 RAF fighter sweep, both sides darting in and out, seeking an advantage, but not getting careless.
to the Luftwaffe and AndyH, well done.
That should be a model for S.O. fighter combat, that we rtb'd such a high percentage in both fights.
I had sweaty palms the whole time, watching my fuel, giving orders, dodging 109s...
Damn I need a tea and a muffin now.
Later.
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Well it wasn't quite so much fun for the Axis, but there really isn't anything we can do about the numbers problem in this kind of setup.
I tried to have all squads waiting for you guys at A9, but when we dragged you all there nobody was waiting for you.
We managed to get the squads reasonably close for the second attack but no matter how high we went your spits always seemed to be higher.
All
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heh, looked like a pretty well fought frame from my view.
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Im sorry about the #s thing AndyH, lets hope frame 2 and frame 3 are better that way. It was still high quality action, I realise you guys were fighting with your backs to the wall though.
In real life, the LW would have made 1 or 2 passes and skinned for home, thats what most of it was like in 1941-2 RAF fighter sweeps.
It felt as close to that as we probably can get in a sim.
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Can anyone explain why in 2 previous frames Axis had to give one whole squadron to Allies to even the sides?
This time such was not "authorized"
IMO, even close to even fight would have been much more enjoyable. Now we just tried to climb away from the horde of higher Spits and then dive away when they got close. Some of my pilots did not even fire their guns during the whole event.
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- In past frame, frame 3 of V1 Hunters, a whole squad did not turn out; not just low numbers for a squad. This left a hole in the battle plans of that side since there was nobody to accomplish their mission.
In this frame all squads turned out.
Yanking a squad to the other side is a drastic measure. Plans go out several days before an event and our based on certain squads doing certain things. Plus, a yanked squad has the full battle plan of the other side. And has been integrated into the other sides battle plan. It is not something to be done lightly. And it was not done lightly in the other event. Pulling a squad from one to the other at the last minute basically can disrupt the other sides battle plans drastically as they lose a squad to cover that the other side did not have a squad turnout out at all.
- It is up to the squad C.O.s to turn out their troops. On the Axis side their was a problem stemming from the contact person of one of the squads having a change of email address that I was not aware of. Their numbers dropped significantly from their average of the last event to this frame.
In this case the Allies maxed their numbers with the +2 advantage. Only the Firebirds went over by 1. The Axis had Lentolaivue 32 way under strength (reason noted above).
- The previous sited examples in the past squad ops is not the norm but a judgement called made by the admin CM who was present do to specific, unique circumstances. It is not the norm and not the policy and never has been since the inception of both Friday and Sunday squads ops to constantly balance sides at the last minute to produce balanced sides for every event.
CMs can not control all circumstances of an event. We setup the playing field, assign objectives, and divide the squads into balanced sides on paper. But the very fact that we assigned CiCs and give them free will and have them come up with battle plans forces us to allow for events out of our control.
Unfortunately in this case the LW was heavily outnumbered. But only lost 15 and shot down 8 in return even though heavily out numbered.
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All squad turned out .. just seems those assigned to allies, really were enthuisiastic about turning out and most did their max commiment number +1 or +2 .. within the rule limits.
I will be talking to the C.O.s and possibly switching an allied squad to the axis side to balance for LW squads turning out low numbers. If they turn out low to average numbers this should still allow them to match RAF numbers .. unless RAF turns out low next frame.
Short of it is numbers imbalances happen but unlike previous frames all the assigned squads turned out with pilots to accomplish their assigned missions.
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I really enjoyed the frame today. Whole point of squadops for me is to experience greater historical immersion than the MA can deliver, and this was definately the case this time. From what I've read of the 1941 RAF sweeps over France it was pretty authentic. And from our squads perspective it was the 109s who were always higher, and we got to 33k at one point :)
As for the numbers thing, squad COs should perhaps review their estimation of likely attendees - if the same imbalance is likely to occur next week then lets go for a swap, so long as it's done in advance. We had 3 more pilots than expected today - on that basis I'll up the Firebirds estimated attendance to 7-10 pilots for the next 2 frames.
Vladd
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Vladd, squads can not up their committments in mid frame. Yours is 4-6 +2. So you can field 8 every frame on average. I usually watch the average to see how squads do before I take any action. Unless their is a drastic drop or spike.
In this case I might switch a squad anyway, because even if LV 32 maxed out with 10 +2 the Axis side would have been at 37. So since the LW seems to be fielding average, moderate numbers and the allies are maxing .. I might switch one 4-6 now to address that.
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Originally posted by BlauK
Can anyone explain why in 2 previous frames Axis had to give one whole squadron to Allies to even the sides?
This time such was not "authorized"
IMO, even close to even fight would have been much more enjoyable. Now we just tried to climb away from the horde of higher Spits and then dive away when they got close. Some of my pilots did not even fire their guns during the whole event.
SO you have contact with enemy, but not have good position and chance to succesful fight? Blame your SL;) he is responcibility for find good position, and time to attack ;-)
I think you taste som real flying with real spirit ;-)
Personal, i fire couople beans form my .303 to running 109
And i still have fun
I was "scared" during attack to A9 when saw black clouds over my head.
I can say i feel same spirit like over year ago. Feel like in real battle.
Can somone can say he have not fun? can somone say he not saw enemy?
Numbers unfortunly not match best (was 42 vs 24, on frame begin). We need to work more on this. But this depends from players , and here noone can blame CM's (once;-) )
and som other details
I hope next frame will give you all more fun then previous.
But pls dont forget this is not MA
ramzey
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If this kind of situation happens again (last minute low numbers becoming apparent for one side) what are the drawbacks to allowing the side with the lower numbers (and it would have to be like it was today, almost two to one) to have an extra life each? I'm sure you've all discussed this before, just wondering what the cons might be.
Had a great time, the frustration of having the 109s always dancing out of arms reach was actually really immersive. Well done Luftwaffe.
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Originally posted by Taiaha
If this kind of situation happens again (last minute low numbers becoming apparent for one side) what are the drawbacks to allowing the side with the lower numbers (and it would have to be like it was today, almost two to one) to have an extra life each? I'm sure you've all discussed this before, just wondering what the cons might be.
well, one rule for all "one life on sops"
thats why LW have 190's (1/3 forces) and if somone in 109 not like to be shot down, can easy run away
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To my eyes it always seemed that spits were higher than us..
Probably it was due unfamiliriaty to high-alt engagements which made me think so.
Was fun when managed to squeese out a shot. I also managed to screw couple of really goop positions due plane oscillation. (in other words shooted all over the sky but the target)
But this kind of attacks need more weather visualisation!! Clouds would make gaming much more challenging, allowing more tactical choices. Now we had a visual range of zillion miles, and also if icons were friendly only, there would be a chance of surprise also. Now only chance of surprise was to wait for someone to fly with a target fixation.
In overall was fun until I noticed that spit v can dive faster than 109F4 and also remembering hizookas which have at least the double of useful firing range than our 20mm...
But still I like low to medium alt attacks more to my liking. More fast action that way.
Carry on.
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Just some additional points Ramzey:
Originally posted by ramzey
SO you have contact with enemy, but not have good position and chance to succesful fight? Blame your SL;) he is responcibility for find good position, and time to attack ;-)
I was the SL. We climbed with WEP as much as we could. SpitV just climbs better, turns better and showed up in higher numbers.
Personal, i fire couople beans form my .303 to running 109
And i still have fun
Exactly... we were the ones running and dodging and firing some desperate bursts to clear someones 6.
I was "scared" during attack to A9 when saw black clouds over my head.
Shouldn't have been scared of your own Spit clouds ;)
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Originally posted by ghostdancer
Vladd, squads can not up their committments in mid frame. Yours is 4-6 +2. So you can field 8 every frame on average. I usually watch the average to see how squads do before I take any action. Unless their is a drastic drop or spike.
I did not quite understand the average thing. If a squad is averaging (i.e. constantly flying) with max numbers, wouldn't it be wiser to change the commitment numbers higher? Squad with coomitment 4-6 should average around 5, right? .. not around 8.
In this case I might switch a squad anyway, because even if LV 32 maxed out with 10 +2 the Axis side would have been at 37.
Wow.. did not know that LLv32 had commited that that high... 7-10 ?? Last post of their commitment I have seen was 4-6, which the fulfilled in -1 range in last frame (3 pilots). 4-6 mentioned at he bottom of thread "more squads to SSO" (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87897) . maybe they have commited more by emails .... dunno?
LLv34 was +1. How were other Axis squadrons?
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Originally posted by BlauK
I was the SL. We climbed with WEP as much as we could. SpitV just climbs better, turns better and showed up in higher numbers.
urban legend of spitfire still alive, let them live;-)
highest numbers yes, but here is no design or setup foult
Originally posted by BlauK
Exactly... we were the ones running and dodging and firing some desperate bursts to clear someones 6.
hmm , are you disapointed? how was you adrenaline lavel during this sortie? low as usual or a bit higher ;-)
was better then regular fuball on CT or MA? or worse?
Originally posted by BlauK
Shouldn't have been scared of your own Spit clouds ;)
next time when i notice 109 red icon i should know its friendly spitfire, who like to invite me for glas of wine somwhere in france;-)
regards
ramzey
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Originally posted by BlauK
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to avoid such a problems in future, and help too busy cm's.
Lucull is doing new webpage for squad operations event
he hope this clean up whole mess and let us all plan future squad ops better
in case you did not notice
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100375
site still raw, but we work on it
regards
ramzey
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Originally posted by ramzey
urban legend of spitfire still alive, let them live;-)
I was actually 1st trying to wonder why and how they got so high, but after checking some sources I had to admit that Spit Vb performs better than 109F-4. F-4 seemed a bit faster though, that was our life line.
hmm , are you disapointed? how was you adrenaline lavel during this sortie? low as usual or a bit higher. Was better then regular fuball on CT or MA? or worse?
Worse actually even though trying to keep one's squadron alive is a nice and challenging task, but that was pretty much all this time. We tried to get a fight going to get the adrenaline pumping, but really had to avoid the slaughter most of the time :\
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Blauk,
Yes when a squad starts to consistently hit its high end of its committment number we do start to nudge them to up the committment level. However, basically committment levels are set for each squad ops and not frames.
Also at times I will up their committment level based on how many they field in the last squad ops (V1 Hunters).
For instance:
LLv32 Frame 1 = 6
LLv32 Frame 2 = 7
LLv32 Frame 3 = 8
Average = 7
So I expect 6-8 out of them for this frame based on their past turnouts. They turned out 3 .. which caught me be suprise but was do to the fact I was sending to the wrong contact email address. So their C.O. only had like 2 days to work to turn out his troops.
Even if they had turned out Axis would have had about 30. So it would have been 42 to 30.
For an example of the opposite lets take a look at 332nd Viking from V1 Hunters:
LLv32 Frame 1 = 9
LLv32 Frame 2 = 5
LLv32 Frame 3 = 10
Average = 8
332nd was within its range (7-10 +2) and fielded 12 for this frame. But as you can see from V1 hunters they had a range of 5-10. I expected 8-9 and they had a very good turnout of 2 over their peak in last squads ops and 2 more than I really expected.
All of this is within the allowed range for the squads. Basically what happened is that the allied squads moved from the middle of their range for this frame to the high end of their range and into the +2 area. While the Axis squads stayed on the high end but did not move into the +2 column.
So we need to make some adjustments to compensate for squads really turning out for the RAF in droves while the LW has strong turnout out but not to the extent the RAF had.
However, I have to be careful or we could have the opposite with the RAF low numbers and the LW high numbers. Right now if I switch a squad that turned out 8 ot LW and LLv32 say fields 6 that will give the LW an addition 9 which should put them at 34 while bringing the RAF down to 36. Even if LLv32 turns out say 8 that should be 36 to 36.
That is if the RAF continues to turn out the strong numbers that it did and the LW squads turn out high numbers but not into the +2 range.
It all really boils down to the C.O.s turning out their troops. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. But the next frame we could see a +10 advantage the LW if everything breaks their way. Switching a squad will hopfully balance things out more so that we don't see 25 vs 42. But we could still see a 6-10 plane discrepancy between sides instead of 17 plane discrepancy.
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Thanks for the explanation and also thanks for the work you do for SSO :) I can see that it is not an easy job to get things perfect for every frame. S!
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Btw since this whole squad ops is about a war of attrition crashes, captures, and other losses do count against this. Because the whole point is to make the other side lose more aircraft than their factories can replace.
In this light the RAF got credit for shooting down 15 LW and the LW shot down 8 RAF.
But BlkKnit and now have to go through the logs to check for all lost aircraft. BlkKnit first estimates (he is counting RAF planes landed in France as loss) puts it at 12 RAF planes lost all reasons and 15 LW planes lost all reasons.
We have to go back and double check.
But even with the side imbalance this frame it looks like it was a well fought fight where everyone fought but also kept an eye on survival at first and second pass .. just have to do the third and fourth pass. ;)
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i had a great time in this frame!
hope the next 1 will be as good as this one
but as much as i enjoy flying in a target rich environment that last fram was just too much
every where i looked there where high spitfires
i really dont know how those spits got so high because the 109f DOES climb batter and its faster
damn allies secret highoctane\irishscotch fuel :eek:
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Good frame guys! :aok
there was plenty of action and was well exccuted. Had a lot of fun this frame and so did the rest of the Vikings. Sry about the number thing but i can see that for a squad to change sides would be very hard to do as they are given orders and have a part to play in the plan.
oh btw, well lead Warloc :aok you did great! :)