Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wanker on November 03, 2003, 10:16:29 AM
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/11/02/bishop.consecration/index.html
DURHAM, New Hampshire (CNN) -- After months of bitter infighting, the Episcopal Church consecrated Rev. Gene Robinson Sunday as bishop of the New Hampshire Diocese -- the first openly gay man to reach that level in the church hierarchy and in the Anglican community worldwide.
"You cannot imagine what an honor it is for you to have called me," Robinson preached afterward, on the verge of crying. But he also noted that many people in the church were in "great pain" because of his promotion.
Robinson's selection to be bishop set off anger among church conservatives, who believe that gay and lesbian relationships violate Christian teaching.
In a statement, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Rev. Rowan Williams, warned that divisions created by Robinson's consecration would have "very serious consequences for the cohesion of the Anglican Communion."
However, at the ceremony, bishops lined up to congratulate Robinson. Only a handful of people demonstrated outside the University of New Hampshire sports arena where the consecration was held.
The crowd attending the ceremony at the University of New Hampshire sports arena -- about 4,000-strong, according to The Associated Press -- reacted with laughter when the state's retiring bishop Rev. Douglas Theuner said in his speech that "the disagreement over your election and consecration, Gene, has been labeled by one of your detractors as the defining battle in the war for Anglicanism's soul, the mother of all battles."
"But guess what," Theuner said in a speech interrupted often by applause. "It is not... You are no more or less a child of God like everyone else."
"What a joy it is to have you here," he said, as many bishops hugged Robinson.
Robinson's consecration was preceded by testimonials by diocesan members and other lay and religious leaders.
Before the consecration, Rev. Frank Griswold, presiding bishop of the church, asked if anyone had objections -- a traditional part of the ceremony -- and three people came forward.
Assistant Bishop David Bena of Albany, New York, spoke for 36 opposing bishops in the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada, according to The Associated Press.
Reading from a statement, Bena said Robinson's "chosen lifestyle is incompatible with Scripture and the teaching of this church," the AP reported.
Rev. Earle Fox from the Pittsburgh Diocese also objected. "Whatever else homosexual may be, it is a behavior. We are forbidden to judge persons but are allowed to judge behavior," Fox said.
However, Griswold interrupted Fox when he started describing sexual practices he said were common in homosexual relationships. "I plead you spare us these details and come to the substance, please," Griswold told Fox.
A woman from the New Hampshire Diocese called the consecration a "cowardly act" and warned, "If this consecration goes forward, the Anglican [Communion] fabric will be torn."
"We should not go through with this terrible mistake."
Robinson received his bishop's miter from the hands of his partner Mark Andrew during the ceremony.
While he initially appeared to be holding back his tears, toward the end of his consecration Robinson, wearing his golden miter and matching gown looked up toward the public and joined the choir singing "Hallelujah" as the procession of clergymen who took part in the ceremony was leaving the stage.
Robinson will not take over as bishop of the New Hampshire Diocese until the retirement of Theuner next month.
Despite Sunday's ceremony, the statement issued of by the Archbishop of Canterbury indicated that divisions continue within the Anglican community.
"It was recognized fully at last month's meeting of Anglican leaders that the consecration of Gene Robinson as Bishop in New Hampshire would have very serious consequences for the cohesion of the Anglican Communion," the statement said.
"The divisions that are arising are a matter of deep regret; they will be all too visible in the fact that it will not be possible for Gene Robinson's ministry as a bishop to be accepted in every province in the Communion," it concluded.
Under U.S. church law, lay people and clergy in each diocese elect bishops, who are then confirmed by the national convention and consecrated. In August, the Episcopal Church USA, meeting for its General Convention in Minneapolis, voted to ordain Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire.
The Archbishop of Canterbury called a meeting afterward to discuss the action. More than 2,000 Episcopal clergy and parishioners met in Plano, Texas, in October to consider splitting from the Episcopal Church USA.
Robinson told CNN's Susan Candiotti Friday that while he doesn't believe his election will lead to a formal split in the 2.3 million-member U.S. church, there could be difficult times ahead.
Robinson has likened the current turmoil to the furor over women, who are not allowed to be priests in a vast majority of Anglican dioceses around the world.
The Anglican Communion is made up of 38 independent self-governing churches, of which the U.S. Episcopal Church is one. The Communion represents more than 70 million people in over 160 countries.
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Hey gay rights is great and all, but what's the point of having a minister who openly (and apparently unrepentantly) does something that goes against the Bible? Why bother having a church if you are going to completely undermine the basis of the church? I don't get it.
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Sin is sin. We were always taught that no sin was any worse than any other in the eyes of god.
I'm willing to bet that the church is chock full of sinners... including the clergy.
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True, sin is sin. The basic message of the New Testament is that we are all sinners and the only way to salvation is through Jesus.
But there are some pretty clear steps called out in the New Testament for dealing with sin. Confession, repentance, etc. Having your butt-buddy hand you the "miter" is not consistent with those. He appears to be pretending that his sin is not a sin.
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Sorry Sandman, that's wrong.
While sin is sin, and the church is full of sinners, that misses the point of repentance and leadership.
The leader of a church should be a leader in every way, including in the area of repentance. Repentance means to turn away from sin, and to ask forgiveness for it. While it is impossible to avoid all sin, it is possible to avoid particular sins.
Now... the Bible is very specific about homosexuality, and it is in no way a gray area. "Abomination" is the word used. That sounds pretty bad to me, and no one has yet shown me anything to suggest God has changed His mind about it.
So... this priest is openly gay, which in effect means he is openly rebelling against God. No way around it, that is not a leader in God's church.
Finally... this does not mean gays are not as welcome in a church as any other sinner, but make no mistake about it, homosexuality is a sin from a Biblical perspective. No unrepentant sinner should ever be a leader of a church, regardless of their respective sin. Are their hypocrits out there? For sure. Doesn't change the facts, though.
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Originally posted by Kieran
No unrepentant sinner should ever be a leader of a church, regardless of their respective sin.
This sounds a lot like opinion... is there scripture to back it?
Here's an interesting note:
There are at least 152 million members of Christian churches in the United States. The Episcopal Church has just over 2 million members.
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Oh, there's definitely scripture for that. I'll get back to you tonight.
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This is a very, very difficult question.
The bible is not "that" clear about theese things as, Keiran says.
In old testamony Homosexuality led to the destruction of "Sodom". Nearly the whole tribe of Benjamin was whiped out after a "gay-related" event.
But then again, the Bible tell us not to eat meat from specific animals and a trillon other very detailed things.
Who messures the sin and what does the scripture say about judging others?
I´would be very carefule to do such a thing.
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Looks like it's time to rewrite the manual again for the weak man's crutch. :rolleyes:
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" -- After months of bitter infighting, the Episcopal Church consecrated Rev. Gene Robinson Sunday..."
That's as far as I had to read to say- Good! It's about time we dealt with gay clergy and give them exactly what they deserve.
As far as I'm concerned we should consecrate all those catholic priests, too. They took a vow of celibacy right? What do they need testicles for?
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Crab, I'll apologize if you can show me where the Bible says homosexuality is okey-dokey.
The other part of your argument concerning Old Testament teaching vs. what is practiced today... not working. You are referring to the Law, and Jesus's sacrifice suprecedes the Law. If you're a Christian, and Anglicans are supposed to be, you cannot use that argument.
Jesus said He was not here to change a single word of His Father's teachings- He was here to fulfill it. The intent of the Law was to show man cannot make himself perfect. Jesus's ascension and His superceding the Law does not mean God changed His mind about everything. So, suggesting that since the Law was superceded means nothing God called bad prior to that is bad is untrue.
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haha you said homo
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Originally posted by Torque
Looks like it's time to rewrite the manual again for the weak man's crutch. :rolleyes:
That, Torque, is exactly why the Anglican church keeps getting in trouble. They are doing precisely that.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Crab, I'll apologize if you can show me where the Bible says homosexuality is okey-dokey.
Please Keiran, I didnt say it said it was Okey-Dokey. I said that the new testamony is not very clear about theese things. In the Old testamony, Citys where destructed and tribes nearly whiped out because of "Homosexual related" behavior.
Talking about the Law, yes, it is correct that every single word in the law is valid. But according to the law we will be doomed for ethernalty. We are bought from the law, by the sacrifies "curse opon the man who gets hung upon a stick". ( I dont have the King James bible, so please bare with the translation)
I am only saying, it is easy to be quick to judge what is right and what is wrong, I can not, because I am not in the position to do so.
But what are you really talking about? I had pokchops today, I might be in real trouble, cause they tasted very good and I dont repeant a second that I had em.
I know about the Peter on the roof stuff and how all food is decleared "clean" but read thoose lines a couple of times, carefully and you might get an answer or 2
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DURHAM, New Hampshire (CNN) -- After months of bitter infighting, the Episcopal Church consecrated Rev. Gene Robinson Sunday as bishop of the New Hampshire Diocese -- the first openly gay man to reach that level in the church hierarchy and in the Anglican community worldwide.
Not that there's anything wrong with that....
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Originally posted by Kieran
Now... the Bible is very specific about homosexuality, and it is in no way a gray area. "Abomination" is the word used. That sounds pretty bad to me, and no one has yet shown me anything to suggest God has changed His mind about it.
So... this priest is openly gay, which in effect means he is openly rebelling against God. No way around it, that is not a leader in God's church.
Bible also says an eye-for-an-eye and the wages of sin is death...
So all sinners should be put to death??
Then the bible says thou shalt not kill.... contradiction?
There's the Old testiment and there's the New testiment...
Old tesitmant is full of hate, revenge, punishment...
And the new testiment talks about turning the other cheek... loving thy enemy...
Mary Magdeline was a prostitute... and Jesus wased her feet....
What was that message about? Forgiveness... perhaps.
The hypocracy are christians who say they love each other and everyone else... yet... they can't even love their enemy...
Which of the verses in the Bible more important?
Gays are an abominantion or love thy enemy... love thy neighbor?
What is God about? Hate or Love?
Listen to the christians and he's all about hate...
All you hear from Jerry F, Pat B, Pat R are the things to HATE in the world... Gays... non-christians... muslims... abortion...science (stem cell research)..
And who ever said god was a "HE"?
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ROFL Airhead.
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I'm thinking maybe the Bible is wrong in this case.
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Thuo shall not put thuo manhood in thy buddy's ARSE.
:aok
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"GAY BISHOP"
That's redundant
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Check out Titus 1:5-7. That's a good place to start.
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Waite a minute I thought the rooks where the Gays?:rofl
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Gay Bishop Consecrated
so? point out ONE passage that says that he CAN'T be gay
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
This sounds a lot like opinion... is there scripture to back it?
I'm sure it's in here somewhere (http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html)
-Sik
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Originally posted by Kieran
Check out Titus 1:5-7. That's a good place to start.
yes, good place to start, but still does´nt mention anything about "homosexuals".
I still think DmdNexus, got a good grip about the whole thing.
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"got a good grip about the whole thing."
I'm pretty sure the bible says you can't do that either.
:aok
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I wonder if there are Gay muslims?
I mean with all that bending over they do the temptations must be huge:aok
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What is God about? Hate or Love?
gods about vengeance in the old testament and about rehabilitation in the new...
Mary Magdeline was a prostitute... and Jesus wased her feet....
he told her to stop being a slut then washed her feet as a sign of forgiveness...
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I'm gonna go out on a crazy limb here and say that the bishops who dedicated their lives to the church and voted the guy in probably know a hell of a lot more about it than anyone in this thread. Continue hating homosexuals though, as that's your perogative.
Oh, and I know I know, you don't hate them. You love them, just so long as they admit they are evil and what they do in their bedroom is an abomination.
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Take it any way you like, SOB, it doesn't matter.
The Bible IS clear on homosexuality.
And Vorticon, what exactly did Nexus say? Looked like the standard "you Bible guys are hypocrits" stuff to me. Loads of cliche', not any real substance.
You guys will not get around the rationalization that a person who is in rebellion against God cannot be a leader in God's church. What I feel about it has nothing to do with the issue.
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Um, you've got millions of people convinced this is God's will and millions convinced it is the devil's. As Kieren said, no one can prove that God has changed his mind regarding homosexuality. Likewise, no one can prove that God has not touched this man and called him to do this as a means of leading the church in a new direction. Nothing short of a burning bush would change anyone's mind, so there is no real point in debating.
All that can be done is for the members of the church to search their heart and faith for the answer as to whether or not they believe this is God's will. That has happened, and they have decided that God wants this man to be a bishop. For those that disagree, they need to find a new denomination that better fits their concept of God's will.
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Originally posted by Lance
Um, you've got millions of people convinced this is God's will and millions convinced it is the devil's. As Kieren said, no one can prove that God has changed his mind regarding homosexuality. Likewise, no one can prove that God has not touched this man and called him to do this as a means of leading the church in a new direction. Nothing short of a burning bush would change anyone's mind, so there is no real point in debating.
All that can be done is for the members of the church to search their heart and faith for the answer as to whether or not they believe this is God's will. That has happened, and they have decided that God wants this man to be a bishop. For those that disagree, they need to find a new denomination that better fits their concept of God's will.
Well said.
No one is going to change their minds one way or another, but I'll tell you this; the Anglican church is headed for a split. As a Baptist, I look at what they've done and shake my head. We clearly don't read the same Bible. As a Christian, it bothers me because I feel strongly this goes against Christian teachings.
You non-Christian guys are free to comment of course, but you must admit I can't allow myself to be swayed by people that routinely mock my God. Your thoughts on the topic don't mean much to me, in reality.
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I thought that in God's eye a sin is a sin is a sin... correct me if I'm wrong.
If this guy can be Bishop... why is everyone so upset at pedophile priests?
Or Evangelists who enjoy prostitues even while being married?
OR... anything really?
Lets all just have a big fat nasty orgy and sing praise to God for letting us.
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at least he's not screwing little boys.
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Originally posted by udet
at least he's not screwing little boys.
YET!!
He should be tared and featherd:rofl
And seing as he like things up his arse how bout a baseball bat:aok
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As a member of arguably the most persecuted minority in history Mrblack, I wonder how you can be so incredibly insensitive.
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I think giving homos minority status is a bit much.
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Originally posted by Tumor
If this guy can be Bishop... why is everyone so upset at pedophile priests?
Maybe because its against the law?
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I just think thay have no buisness in the clergy.
For crying out loud LOL.:rofl
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Are our senses getting so dulled as a society now that we no longer see anything wrong with a man wanting to put his dork up another mans arse?
And PLEASE don't tell me oh I was born that way BULLCHIT don't buy that one either.
It is a lifestyle choice and it is WRONG.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Are our senses getting so dulled as a society now that we no longer see anything wrong with a man wanting to put his dork up another mans arse?
And PLEASE don't tell me oh I was born that way BULLCHIT don't buy that one either.
It is a lifestyle choice and it is WRONG.
morality is relative.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I think giving homos minority status is a bit much.
Well they are most certainly a minority. And they have most certainly been persecuted. What else would you require?
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Originally posted by mrblack
And PLEASE don't tell me oh I was born that way BULLCHIT don't buy that one either.
It is a lifestyle choice and it is WRONG.
When did you choose to prefer women?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
When did you choose to prefer women?
God made that choice for me.
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I am not gonna defend homosexuals, but then again they never did anything to harm me.
But it seams like someone has gotten abused.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Well they are most certainly a minority. And they have most certainly been persecuted. What else would you require?
As well they should be and then some.
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Originally posted by Tumor
I thought that in God's eye a sin is a sin is a sin... correct me if I'm wrong.
If this guy can be Bishop... why is everyone so upset at pedophile priests?
Or Evangelists who enjoy prostitues even while being married?
OR... anything really?
Lets all just have a big fat nasty orgy and sing praise to God for letting us.
That's a pretty good point.
If you start with the knowledge God called homosexuality a sin, then practicing homosexuality is defying God.
Defying God is unrepentance.
No one can be saved without repentance.
Mt 7:15-16 - "Watch for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are fierce wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them."
Mark 9:42 - "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck."
James 3:1- "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."
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from http://nw-ar.com/hdr/bbs/messages/3.html
August 27, page A4, Mike Maloney made some statements that require a response. He said: “…there is no way for genetics to play more than a minor role in sexual preference (see the landmark 1991 Northwestern University study by Bailey and Pillard).” However, a 1998 report by Pillard and Bailey states: “We present an overview of behavioral genetics research on homosexual and heterosexual orientation. Family, twin, and adoptee studies indicate that homosexuality and thus heterosexuality run in families. Sibling, twin, and adoptee concordances rates are compatible with the hypothesis that genes account for at least half of the variance in sexual orientation.” (Human Biology April 1998; 70: 347-365). Further in their text (page 359), they suggest: “The physical and functional identification of genes for sexual orientation is still a distant goal.” The genes possibly controlling sexual orientation and behavior are only now beginning to be studied in Drosophila, a genetically well-known organism. Two examples are: J Neurobiol 1996; 30: 454-464 “Male-male courtship behavior induced by ectopic expression of the Drosophila white gene: role of sensory function and age” and Neurosci Res 1996; 26: 95-107 “Genetic dissection of sexual orientation: behavioral, cellular, and molecular approaches in Drosophila melanogaster” It is too early to dismiss genetic influence in human sexual orientation, and, in fact, it appears that the contrary may be the case.
There is a belief in this country that sexual orientation is a “choice.” However, there are a number of research findings that demonstrate differences in brain function between hetero- and homosexuals that are beyond choice. For example: “Click-evoked otoacoustic emissions (CEOAEs) are echo-like waveforms emitted by normal-hearing cochleas [part of inner ear] in response to a brief transient [stimuli]. CEOAEs are known to be stronger in females than in males. In this experiment, the CEOAEs of homosexual and bisexual females were found to be intermediate to those of heterosexual females and heterosexual males. A parsimonious explanation is that the auditory systems of homosexual and bisexual females, and the brain structures responsible for their sexual orientation, have been partially masculinized by exposure to high levels of androgens prenatally.” (Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1998; 95: 2709-2713) Some forms of brain electrical activity during “mental rotation” were greater in heterosexual men than heterosexual women and homosexual men: “Slow wave activity recorded during MR [mental rotation] was greater for HT [heterosexual] men than for HT women and gay men.” (Brain Cogn 1998; 36: 73-92). Another study found differences in the response of the brain to auditory stimuli between hetero- and homosexual men (Arch Sex Behav 1995; 24: 585-593). Now, I seriously doubt that the homosexual individuals of these studies made a “choice” to alter their brain functions, any more than heterosexual females made a choice to have stronger CEOAEs than heterosexual males.
I suggest scientific evidence is beginning to support a deterministic and genetic view of sexual preference. Therefore, the foregoing biomedical findings should be considered carefully when one attempts to decide whether homosexuality is a “choice.”
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Originally posted by Kieran
That's a pretty good point.
If you start with the knowledge God called homosexuality a sin, then practicing homosexuality is defying God.
Defying God is unrepentance.
No one can be saved without repentance.
...and we come right back to "all studmuffins are going to hell". Very nice.
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Kerian, can you please come up with something from the scripture that talks about Homosexuals, New testamony?
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Yeah Yeah and some arse clown could write a paper on
pigs can fly too.
None of it is proven because IT CAN'T BE.
Show me other mammals where two males ingage in anul sex.
For anything but a show of domnance.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Are our senses getting so dulled as a society now that we no longer see anything wrong with a man wanting to put his dork up another mans arse?
You're right, our senses ARE getting dulled. I think it all started with Rosa Parks. Damned uppity negro. If slavery was good enough for our founding fathers, then why in God's name can't it be good enough for us?! Get out in the fields and start pickin' me some cotton mrblackey or it'll be the whip for ya!
Oh wait, that's just incredibly stupid, isn't it.
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But consider this, MT...
Suppose there can be a genetic link made to homosexuality. What difference does it make?
Bear with me. People are disposed to do many things, whether it's something as benign as anal retentive behavior, or anti-social as murder. The truth is, science will probably find a genetic cause for just about every behavior we have.
So?
Simple- nothing is ever anyone's fault or responsibility. By claiming genetic cause, we get the "Get out of jail free" card. How can we persecute someone for something they didn't do? Morality then becomes irrelevant and unenforceable. "Yeah, he murders people, but you know, he was born with that extra DNA. What are you gonna do?"
Crowd: "I can't believe you are comparing homosexuals to murderers!"
Me: "I'm not. But don't kid yourselves into thinking this argument won't be applied to any behavior considered to be outside the mainstream."
It may very well be we are all hard-coded with a genetic weakness- Paul himself complained of "a thorn in my side". What that thorn was is open to debate, but for all we know it could have been homosexuality. What we do know is he did not succumb to it, whatever it was.
Whatever the case, if you are a Christian, and if you believe the Bible, there is only one way to read God's take on homosexuality, whatever the cause.
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Originally posted by SOB
You're right, our senses ARE getting dulled. I think it all started with Rosa Parks. Damned uppity negro. If slavery was good enough for our founding fathers, then why in God's name can't it be good enough for us?! Get out in the fields and start pickin' me some cotton mrblackey or it'll be the whip for ya!
Oh wait, that's just incredibly stupid, isn't it.
Get hooked on phonics dude.
Learn to read it will help you in life trust me.
The sin of slavery has nothing to do with gays.
Unless uncle tom was gay
:rofl
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Wow, you really can't be that stupid can you?
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Originally posted by SOB
Wow, you really can't be that stupid can you?
Son you wrote the book:rofl
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My mistake. You can be.
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Originally posted by SOB
Wow, you really can't be that stupid can you?
Only an idiot could confuse a discussion on gays with slaves?
I mean are you sober:rofl
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Now, here you can become a Bishop without beliving in God. I think I rather have a Beliving homosexual, then a nonbeliving Bishop.
Whatever the case, if you are a Christian, and if you believe the Bible, there is only one way to read God's take on homosexuality, whatever the cause.
His sin is between him and God, not between me and him.
The Goverment makes the Laws and if the goverment says, "homosexuality is legal" thats the way it is.
Or any of you object to who instates goverments?
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Originally posted by crabofix
Now, here you can become a Bishop without beliving in God. I think I rather have a Beliving homosexual, then a nonbeliving Bishop.
His sin is between him and God, not between me and him.
True but he is still gonna need 2000 spf sunblock:rofl
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Something with colours in peoples callsigns: They all end up on my ignore list.
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Originally posted by crabofix
Now, here you can become a Bishop without beliving in God. I think I rather have a Beliving homosexual, then a nonbeliving Bishop.
His sin is between him and God, not between me and him.
The Goverment makes the Laws and if the goverment says, "homosexuality is legal" thats the way it is.
Or any of you object to who instates goverments?
What the state wants to do it can do. I have no problem with it. To use the cliche', I know gays, and only a few have ever caused me any problems. Just like all the other people I know. I would welcome gays into my church, just as I would any other sinner. I'm a sinner, too. Church is full of them.
What you guys may not realize is I would be just as much against an unrepentant adulter being a teacher, or anything else God called a sin. There is no pass on this one, this is one of the most important positions in the church.
Church isn't about compromise, or adapting to a society.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Church isn't about compromise, or adapting to a society.
Gotta wave the BS flag on this one. The church is constantly adapting. How many different versions of the bible can you find?
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The church still needs to follow the laws, it does not stand over the law.
If theres something wrong with your laws, change goverment.
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wtg gay community!!!
does the good ole bish pitch or catch?
just another morality toilet flush on our road to ruin
sorry if I offended any of you homos out there :)
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Originally posted by crabofix
The church still needs to follow the laws, it does not stand over the law.
If theres something wrong with your laws, change goverment.
They do thing differently in sweden.
Being as they have the highest teen suicide rate in the world.
There doing a great job.
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Originally posted by crabofix
The church still needs to follow the laws, it does not stand over the law.
If theres something wrong with your laws, change goverment.
What are you on about? I never said homosexuality is against the law, I said homosexuals cannot be leaders of a Christian church. Besides, there are plenty of things that are not against the law a Christian is not allowed to do.
And yes, in Christianity religion is before the secular law. "Render unto Ceasar (I can never spell that right) what is his" means to follow societal law. It doesn't mean to change religious behavior to suit society.
Sandman-
Far better to look at the established religions, and how long they have existed.
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Kerian, I wont give you a historic lesson in church history, I do not think that it is called for.
And it is a bit diffrent in Europe, then in US, as you have had freedome of religion there, for a longer period then we.
200 years ago, going to church was not an option, it was an obligation here. But a lot of things have changed since thoose days. Fortunatly
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Mrblack, you are not capable of debate. Please refrain from posting any further.
If not, then feel free to carry on with the insults and immature tactics.
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so anything that tests one's faith is the work of satan right?
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
so anything that tests one's faith is the work of satan right?
As Abraham's faith was tested by God, obviously not.
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MT,
Oh yeah! Sez you! :D
By the way, do you really understand all that scientific gibberish, or are you just extremely talented at finding these articles on the internet?
Here is a test. Without looking back at your article, define the terms listed below. If your score better than 70% on it you win a free tick to the next yearly convention of Queer Nation. Ready?
1. ectopic expression
2. mental rotation
3. Drosopila white gene
4. click-evoked otocoustic emissions
5. Drosopila melanogaster
_________________________
To be serious for a moment, if I understand the article correctly, the scientists are stating that the cochlea in the ears of women emit more echo waves than do those of men. Since the cochlea of homosexual males and females emit echo waves similar to those of women, this indicates that their brains' sexual orientation has been altered...correct? This seems to be a bit of a far-reaching conclusion to make based on these facts.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by Octavius
Mrblack, you are not capable of debate. Please refrain from posting any further.
If not, then feel free to carry on with the insults and immature tactics.
Do I need to shut you down again Little man?
So what I don't like studmuffins get over it.
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I bet your fbcobra mrblack.
(http://death.innomi.com/uploads/fbcobra.JPG)
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
I bet your fbcobra mrblack.
(http://death.innomi.com/uploads/fbcobra.JPG)
I bet you'r GAY:aok
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squelch channel one
I detest junior high locker room humor.
Shuckins
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actually you both hate studmuffins and want them to die. You guys are the perfect christians without a doubt! I salute you
Only a true christian could harbor such hate!
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Originally posted by mrblack
Do I need to shut you down again Little man?
So what I don't like studmuffins get over it.
shut me down? i wasnt aware there was a first time. do you need me to punt that thread for your further embarrassment?
nah, i dont have to. every single post of yours is one huge embarrassing failure. congrats, you're a moron!
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Originally posted by mrblack
Are our senses getting so dulled as a society now that we no longer see anything wrong with a man wanting to put his dork up another mans arse?
And PLEASE don't tell me oh I was born that way BULLCHIT don't buy that one either.
It is a lifestyle choice and it is WRONG.
Not getting at you Mr Black but something occured to me in the last big Gay debate.
On the Bishop issue, well I don't believe in God so it's all bullchit to me. It just seems to me that if a church can't even follow it's own prejudices then what kind of church is it? But then all churches come out with the most incredible BS. Their whole organisation and life in based on a fantasy and is wholly irrelevant to the real world. That goes for all religions. I've no real problems with Gays. I have Gay friends. I only hate people who do me harm.
Anyway back to my point. Being gay is a lifestyle choice is it? That seems to be the prevalent view among the devout. I can see the perverse (pun intended) logic. If it's genetic then God made Gays thus it is OK to be Gay. Uh oh that won't work now will it? So being Gay must be a choice. Presumably therefore at puberty all those Gays out there chose to be attracted to men rather than women. They made a choice if we are to believe Mr Black and all those good Christians out there.
Now I have a problem with that, you see I didn't have a choice. I was attracted to girls straight away. No choice. I was just heterosexual. What's wrong with me? But in fact there is nothing wrong with me. I suspect like most of us out there Gay or Straight we didn't need to choose. We just were what we are.
Now I have a mischevious thought. :rofl That means everyone including Mr Black who believes being Gay is a choice must themselves have faced that choice at puberty and chose to be Hetero. QED Mr Black and all his friends are all in fact Bisexual or even Gay but chose not to be. :rofl Surely they must have found themselves attracted to men and chose not to. How else can anyone believe being Gay is something you decide to be?
There is no other explanation, that explains their homophobia. I mean why else would anyone be so keen to prove their hatred of Gays? I must search through the previous gay thread and pick out the names of all the individuals who think being Gay is a choice. That should be interesting. Starting with you MR Black you're out of the closet :o
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Originally posted by mrblack
I wonder if there are Gay muslims?
I mean with all that bending over they do the temptations must be huge:aok
<--- makes a mental note not to tempt Mr Black by bending over.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Yeah Yeah and some arse clown could write a paper on
pigs can fly too.
None of it is proven because IT CAN'T BE.
Show me other mammals where two males ingage in anul sex.
For anything but a show of domnance.
Dolphins.
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Doesn't anyone else find it ironic?
When some 'straight' Bishop gets acused of rampant buttsecks with choir-boys they try to cover it up and protect him.
But some poor gay states he likes the old hershey highway and they crucify him for being honest.
p.s. funked stop touching my ass.
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They made a choice if we are to believe Mr Black and all those good Christians out there.
You aren't paying attention; I've already forwarded the possibility homosexuality may very well be hardwired.
Vulcan-
Not from me. Those guys should get tossed from their positions. And anyway, don't be too dramatic; I've merely said they shouldn't be leaders in the church, and they shouldn't be.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
MT,
Oh yeah! Sez you! :D
By the way, do you really understand all that scientific gibberish, or are you just extremely talented at finding these articles on the internet?
Here is a test. Without looking back at your article, define the terms listed below. If your score better than 70% on it you win a free tick to the next yearly convention of Queer Nation. Ready?
1. ectopic expression
2. mental rotation
3. Drosopila white gene
4. click-evoked otocoustic emissions
5. Drosopila melanogaster
_________________________
To be serious for a moment, if I understand the article correctly, the scientists are stating that the cochlea in the ears of women emit more echo waves than do those of men. Since the cochlea of homosexual males and females emit echo waves similar to those of women, this indicates that their brains' sexual orientation has been altered...correct? This seems to be a bit of a far-reaching conclusion to make based on these facts.
Regards, Shuckins
I majored in Bio-sci in college. Drosphila melanogaster is the fruit fly. It is used for genetic study due to its simple (IIRC) 6 chromosome structure.
No far reaching conclusions were reached in the article. It only pointed out the possibility of a genetic link.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Starting with you MR Black you're out of the closet :o
I could find you some interesting quotes...
[edited for quotes from mrblack]: [list=1]"And seing as he like things up his arse how bout a baseball bat"
"I wonder if there are Gay muslims? I mean with all that bending over they do the temptations must be huge"
"Show me other mammals where two males ingage in anul sex."
"Thuo shall not put thuo manhood in thy buddy's ARSE."
"Waite a minute I thought the rooks where the Gays?"
"Did someone say morning wood?"
"While you are searching for small things do a Manhood check while your at it LOL"
"I will leave the kneeling and bobbing to you two as you do it so well"
"Will they have to wip out there dorks? I would Imagine He is Hung like a mule."
[/list=1]
You can look those up for verification too. Mrblack, whats with the anal/phallic fixation?[/edit]
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Originally posted by mrblack
Yeah Yeah and some arse clown could write a paper on
pigs can fly too.
None of it is proven because IT CAN'T BE.
Show me other mammals where two males ingage in anul sex.
For anything but a show of domnance.
Same-Sex Pair Bonding in Animals
Just as in humans, animals often form long-term same-sex relationships. In species in which this normally occurs in heterosexual couples, that shouldn't come as a great surprise, but it does come as a surprise in species where heterosexual pair-bonds don't normally form for long if at all. This is true of bottlenose dolphins, which are not known to form heterosexual pair bonds, but which do in fact form homosexual pair bonds, including sex, and often lasting for life.
In animals in which "bachelor groups" form, such as bison, gazelles, antelope, sage grouse and Guinean *****-of-the-rock, it is not uncommon for same sex pair bonds to form and last until one or the other member of the pair departs the relationship and breeds. It is also not uncommon for homosexual preference to form among members of such bachelor groups; when offered the opportunity to breed unencumbered with members of the opposite sex or the same sex, they choose the same sex.
The human pattern of bisexuality also appears in animals. In some cases, animals prefer same sex at one point in their lives, and change preference later. They may even change back and forth. In some cases, animals may seek sex with partners of either sex at random.
In animals with a seasonal breeding pattern, homosexuality can even be seasonal. Male walruses, for example, often form homosexual pair bonds and have sex with each other outside of the breeding season, but will revert to a heterosexual pattern during the normal breeding season.
:aok
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Originally posted by Kieran
You aren't paying attention; I've already forwarded the possibility homosexuality may very well be hardwired.
.
Good, so if it's hardwired then it's God's doing. That makes it Ok and there must be a good reason God made Gays. You can't have it both ways here. If it's part of nature then God's hand is in it. Why would God create people who have no choice but to break his rules?
And Octavious good points, the evidence mounts (oops)! Mr Black has a case to answer.
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Originally posted by SOB
...and we come right back to "all studmuffins are going to hell". Very nice.
You know, it's about time we cleared something up.
You have a chip on your shoulder about homosexuality. That's fine, whatever your reason is, and believe me when I say I am insinuating nothing, it's fine by me. What I am wondering is how you get "hate" from "unfit for leadership". You know, it isn't the same thing.
I have a stated stance on homosexuality. I think it's wrong, and Biblically, that is a substantiated stance. Accept or reject the Bible as you will, I choose to accept. You apparently choose not to, though I apologize if I have you confused with others. Seems I recall some mocking remarks in the past.
So... is this the source of your thinking I hate gays? Or is it the lockerroom humor we sometimes engage in? You know, "studmuffins" and such? Guilty as charged. Growing up, we all called one another studmuffins. That doesn't make it right, that's just how it was. No one took particular offense to it. Still, on a public BBS it's bound to upset some people.
But to be fair, you bandy about the word "tard" quite frequently in much the same manner. That's another one of those words that we said quite a bit growing up, and associated no particular meaning to. No biggie there, either.
I guess I'm saying, if on the one hand you think I hate homosexuals because I believe God called homosexuality an abomination, you're wrong. If on the other hand you think I hate homosexuals because I say "studmuffin", you're wrong again. If you think I hate gays because of attempts to ram a gay agenda down society's throat, angry is a better word, much the same way I would be with any fringe group that tried to take away my traditions and erode my beliefs against my will.
Truth is, none of the three above equate to me hating gays any more than your using the word "tard" means you hate the mentally retarded. I see that, though I suppose with a mentally retarded brother I might find reason to get my back up about it.
But in all seriousness, if you want to change my mind about homosexuality, do it scripturally. Find for me direct support for homosexuality in the same vein in which God came out against it. Do THAT, and believe me, my Biblical problems with it end right there. That's a tough order though, and unless you know your Bible better than I do, I don't think you can do it.
Finally, there is only one unforgiveable sin, and that is to refuse to accept Jesus as your Savior. That means to repent your sin. It doesn't matter what the sin is, if you willfully continue it, you have not repented.
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Good, so if it's hardwired then it's God's doing. That makes it Ok and there must be a good reason God made Gays. You can't have it both ways here. If it's part of nature then God's hand is in it. Why would God create people who have no choice but to break his rules?
You're making my case.
God didn't make us perfect. He said over and over the flesh is weak. There is temptation in the world, and He allows it to exist. Now whether that imperfection is in the form of genetic disposition or whatever else doesn't matter; God also gives you the strength to overcome it if you recognize you cannot do it alone and you turn to Him. The Bible says this over and over.
People DO have a choice, even if the temptation is great. But... what IS temptation? Can temptation come from genetics? Why not?
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So umm do Gay dolphins go to heaven?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Doesn't anyone else find it ironic?
When some 'straight' Bishop gets acused of rampant buttsecks with choir-boys they try to cover it up and protect him.
But some poor gay states he likes the old hershey highway and they crucify him for being honest.
p.s. funked stop touching my ass.
You're confusing the Roman church with the Anglican.
And that's not me, it's SOB.
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Same-Sex Pair Bonding in Animals
Just as in humans, animals often form long-term same-sex relationships. In species in which this normally occurs in heterosexual couples, that shouldn't come as a great surprise, but it does come as a surprise in species where heterosexual pair-bonds don't normally form for long if at all. This is true of bottlenose dolphins, which are not known to form heterosexual pair bonds, but which do in fact form homosexual pair bonds, including sex, and often lasting for life.
In animals in which "bachelor groups" form, such as bison, gazelles, antelope, sage grouse and Guinean *****-of-the-rock, it is not uncommon for same sex pair bonds to form and last until one or the other member of the pair departs the relationship and breeds. It is also not uncommon for homosexual preference to form among members of such bachelor groups; when offered the opportunity to breed unencumbered with members of the opposite sex or the same sex, they choose the same sex.
The human pattern of bisexuality also appears in animals. In some cases, animals prefer same sex at one point in their lives, and change preference later. They may even change back and forth. In some cases, animals may seek sex with partners of either sex at random.
In animals with a seasonal breeding pattern, homosexuality can even be seasonal. Male walruses, for example, often form homosexual pair bonds and have sex with each other outside of the breeding season, but will revert to a heterosexual pattern during the normal breeding season.
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I smell BULLCHIT.
Like I said anyone can write a paper on anything.
It don't make it so!
And If that accured in nature too much there would be NO animales.(hint the studmuffins aint found a way to have babies yet)
Do the math it is simple no race wether it be the human or whatever will survive if there is no coupling between male and female.
I mean for crying out loud just look at human genitalia
It only FITS one way.
Sometimes I think God must be looking down at us and shaking his head
:rolleyes:
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If Flipper is gay then we should put dolphins back in our Star Kist. Tuna hsn't tasted as good since they banned dolphins as part of the catch.
kieran for the strength of your convictions. May God bless you. >
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Originally posted by mrblack
I smell BULLCHIT.
Don't tell us, tell your mom, no one heres gonna change your nappies ;)
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Over rocks and trees and sand
Soaring over cliffs
And gently floating down to land
She proudly lifts her voice
To sound her mating call
And soon her mate responds by singing
Caw Caw Caw
Come with me
Lesbian Seagull
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You smell bullshit because you dont want to believe it.
And read it again:
it is not uncommon for same sex pair bonds to form and last until one or the other member of the pair departs the relationship and breeds.
And If that accured in nature too much there would be NO animales.(hint the studmuffins aint found a way to have babies yet)
They do.
and rc51, er mrblack, what do you have to say about those quotes I provided a few posts back? =]
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Oh, that mrblack guy is RC51?, that explains a lot.:rofl
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I believe mrblack doth protest too much.
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Well Kieran, the problem I see isn't with you per say, it's the BS that surrounds your religion. None of you have ever explained to my satisfaction (not that you really need to) the contradiction that lies in thinking studmuffins are going to hell, but at the same time saying it's all about loving your fellow man and they're welcome in your church. Of course, I don't think there's anything wrong with homosexuals and I certainly don't think they should be repentant for living a life that's right for them and really doesn't do any harm to anyone else. I find it hard to believe that you don't hate homosexuals when you bring them up in the same light as pedophiles. Beyond that, I think you're a smart guy and when I see you post on the subject of religion it baffles me that an educated person such as yourself could blindly follow some of this stuff. But then, I just don't "get" religion.
As for referring to homos as studmuffins, I think you should pay closer attention to some of my posts. I've got no more reservation about making fun of studmuffins than I do about making fun of any other racial, sexual, ethnic, whatever group of people. Stereotypes are fun. :D
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SOB, I just want to say that it's a darned shame that you can never be a Bishop now. I was really looking forward to flying with you in a tour or two. Clean up your act and who knows, we might just give you a miter. :)
I want all of you christians to have a big group hug and get your house in order. Make darn sure who's in the house before you do any hugging though - be a darned shame if anyone actually touched someone of the wrong persuasion.
curly
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Clean up your act and who knows, we might just give you a miter. :)
Will it look like a noodle, kinda like the one in that statue? :D
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I sure wish they'd bring out a bible that was more specific about what was relevant, and what obviously isn't....
like in Leviticus:
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womenkind; it is an abomination
Easy enough you say, it's in the bible it must be true!
But then you get some that aren't aparently relevant
like in Leviticus (again):
For every one who curseth his father, or his mother shall be surely put to death; he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him
or even these gems
Exodus: Whoever does any work on the sabbath shall be put to death
Leviticus: A man with a defect in his sight...or a hunchback...or a dwarf ...he shall not offer the bread of his God
Sorry all those with glasses, you're all in big trouble!
Lucky the church follows all the bible so very very very precisely
Tronsky
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Originally posted by -tronski-
I sure wish they'd bring out a bible that was more specific about what was relevant, and what obviously isn't....
Lucky the church follows all the bible so very very very precisely
Tronsky
Thread killer! Curses, Tronsky, some of us had our chair pulled up complete with snacks and softdrinks.
curly
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I find it hard to believe that you don't hate homosexuals when you bring them up in the same light as pedophiles.
I didn't put homosexuals in there with pedophiles and such. God does that with His word. Abomination is applied to homosexuality and child sacrifice. Pedophile is a very light analogy by comparison. Look, typically you guys will ask why a religious guy is against homosexuality, and when he quotes scripture you get all huffy about it. I don't have to hate anyone to tell you what God said about them.
Tronski-
Let's talk about Jesus discussing the Sabbath, and his story about a man with a donkey in a ditch on the Sabbath. Should the donkey be left in the ditch?
Cursing your father or mother... to what specifically do you refer? Are you suggesting this means that, no matter how evil your parents are you cannot rebuke them?
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Thread killer! Curses, Tronsky, some of us had our chair pulled up complete with snacks and softdrinks.
curly
Don't fret Curly,
Some religious people are like terminators when you put obvious hypocrisies under the spotlight....they never ever ever ever ever quit,
this will go on, and on, and on....
Originally posted by Kieran
I didn't put homosexuals in there with pedophiles and such. God does that with His word. Abomination is applied to homosexuality and child sacrifice. Pedophile is a very light analogy by comparison. Look, typically you guys will ask why a religious guy is against homosexuality, and when he quotes scripture you get all huffy about it. I don't have to hate anyone to tell you what God said about them.
Tronski-
Let's talk about Jesus discussing the Sabbath, and his story about a man with a donkey in a ditch on the Sabbath. Should the donkey be left in the ditch?
Cursing your father or mother... to what specifically do you refer? Are you suggesting this means that, no matter how evil your parents are you cannot rebuke them?
LOL
Don't own a donkey....Jesus...never met the man...
as for cursing, don't ask me...ask the guy(s) who wrote the bible, but it would seem pretty obvious to me...
You see the bible which is the word of God, is therefore infallible (aparently), then all of the teachings of the bible must be correctly followed should it not? I didn't realise that you could just pick and choose the ones you particulary like, or suit your arguments like Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womenkind; it is an abomination, but hey...don't worry about being killed for working on the sabbath, because of the donkey thing.
Either way they should just bring out the abridged version...you know, just the stuff that is relevant now...
e.g "god hates your particular lifestyle (dolphins not included), but don't worry about the sabbath stuff, he was only joking about that....oh except those with glasses, and demons...you still all give him the ****s"
That way I don't mistakenly go out and kill someone for working on the sabbath, because I hadn't gotten to the part about the Donkey....but then there is that annoying Thou shalt not kill buisness....wow lucky there is the church there to edit out all that stuff...
Tronsky
ps. I wouldn't really go and kill someone for working on the sabbath...unless he had a gay dolphin...or cursed his mother....(god really gets the ****s if you do that) :D
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Originally posted by mrblack
quote:
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Same-Sex Pair Bonding in Animals
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I smell BULLCHIT.
I mean for crying out loud just look at human genitalia
It only FITS one way.
:rolleyes:
You obviously don't watch the discovery channel....
They had video of a tribe of monkies not only engaging in homosexual activities... but also incest... orgies... mutual masturbation... fornication with fruits and vegitables... porno pants and leather fetishes... as well as biker-type bondage and S&M...
(ok the S&M part I threw in because that's my kink - hey don't knock it until you try it.. I'm sure if monkies had opposible thumbs they would be indulging in the more refined erotica)
:rofl
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Originally posted by Kieran
I didn't put homosexuals in there with pedophiles and such. God does that with His word. Abomination is applied to homosexuality and child sacrifice. Pedophile is a very light analogy by comparison. Look, typically you guys will ask why a religious guy is against homosexuality, and when he quotes scripture you get all huffy about it. I don't have to hate anyone to tell you what God said about them.
"God" does that with his word, and YOU follow his word and chose to point it out. Well, that word anyway...have you ever worked on the sabbath? Barring emergencies, of course, which the donkey in the ditch is referring to. Ever go to a store on Sundays and support some other poor schmuck in his sinful ways? Sorry you think I "get all huffy" just because I see no logic in your answer. You could have chose to compare this sin to any other sin...I just find it curious you chose to compare it to pedophiles.
-edit- As I don't mean to pigpile on you, you can probably just ignore this. I still don't find the logic in it, but my thoughts about your "God" won't likely change, so what does it matter?
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Furthermore all you biblical scholars.... if the bible is the authority of morality and who and who can not be "ordained" as a holy man to lead god's soiled and retched flock into the promised land..
Well... you are all Onanners!
8: And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9: And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10: And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
Genesis 38:4,8-10; 46:12; Numbers 26:19; 1 Chronicles 2:3)
Note: This is God telling a guy to go sleep with his brothers wife.
You see the LORD ALMIGHTY DOG, ALLAH, JEHOVA, ALI, THE GREAT CREATOR, ETERNAL SPIRIT, The DUDE...
Well, he doesn't like masturbators either... so if you have a noodle... and you've ever abused it out side of a wedlocked Vagina .. you're going to BURN IN THE BRIMSTONE FIRES OF HELL FOR ETERNITY!
I don't care what a priest says... they are all masturbators... which is just as an abmination in the eyes of god as a homosexual.
Ok well I don't believe in this B/S I'm just letting you what God told me last night while I was flogging my log and getting my behind beat to a rosey glow by Ma'dame Olga Dementrix.
Funny how the bible doesn't mention women lieing down with women being wrong... that's because.. the dudes who wrote that non-sense liked to watch lesbo acts and donkey shows.
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You know, this whole thing comes down to people who don't believe in Christianity, don't understand it by self-admission, telling believers how the church should run. In addition, some of you are adding things which are either unproven or patently false to shore your arguments.
I personally have never professed hatred for any person on this issue, though many of you act as if I did. Through repetition this has somehow become fact, much like the vaunted "genetic link" theory. It doesn't upset me, don't get me wrong, but if you think I'm repeating myself, you should hear you from my perspective.
I can't help you if your superficial knowledge of the Bible prevents you from understanding it. Really, that sounds condescending, but it isn't meant that way. But surely you can see the comedy in people who've either already said they don't believe or understand religion telling religion how it should be run?
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Kieren, that isn't what this all comes down to. The members of the episcopal church, who are believers in God and do have an understanding of christianity and the bible, have made this man a bishop. Not any atheists or agnostics. Even many, many believers disagree with you.
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Absolutely right, I stand corrected, although you must concede much of this thread has been about what I discussed. It was a mild hijack.
My dog in the hunt is I am a Christian who will be affected by the decision. What do others bring to it?
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Originally posted by Kieran
My dog in the hunt is I am a Christian who will be affected by the decision. What do others bring to it?
How will this decision affect your relationship with God?
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How does it affect my personal relationship? It doesn't directly.
It affects Christianity and the perception people have of it.
It erodes core beliefs of Christianity.
It moves attention away from God and places it on an individual.
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I view homosexuals as I do any other mentally ill person.
Pity them, tolerate them but never EVER put them in a position of authority or near children!
It kills me to see all these new shows on TV promoting the humiliation of Gays.
I mean would you go to the nearest Nut House and pull up a chair to the window and laugh at the patients?
That's what you are doing if you watch these sad sad shows!
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Originally posted by Mighty1
I view homosexuals as I do any other mentally ill person.
Pity them, tolerate them but never EVER put them in a position of authority or near children!
So someone with bi-polar disorder, ADD, or downs syndrome...
or even slightly marginally retarded...
You pity them and would not allow them to work at McDonalds, or at a school janitor because they are near children?
Because why?
You think they'll molest children?
And just because someone is gay.. you think they are out to corrupt children?
That's a rather ignorant point of view.
There are more fathers molesting their daughters and mothers hiding it and denying it than there are gay teachers, priests and bishops having sex with little boys.
Were you born a red neck or did you just grow up that way? :aok
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Originally posted by Kieran
How does it affect my personal relationship? It doesn't directly.
It affects Christianity and the perception people have of it.
It erodes core beliefs of Christianity.
It moves attention away from God and places it on an individual.
"The perception"... like christians hate any one who dosen't believe in what they believe in... and everyone who doesn't believe in what they believe in will burn in hell... and will not go to heaven... that's a rather arogant point of view.
Won't it be funny.. judgment day comes... Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Catholics, Mormons, Moonies, American Indians are all present before God... and he says ok all the "Branch Davidians" come on down!! You win the Holy Lottery.. welcome to Heaven! The rest of you can go to hell!
'Places it on an individual..." Like jerry farwell, Pat robinson, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Tammy Fay... the Pope.. Bishops... cardinals...
These are all self ordained holy men of god.
I say self ordained because they accepted the titles given to them by other men (not god) rather than being humble and saying they were unworthy of them.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
I'm sure if monkies had opposible thumbs they would be indulging in the more refined erotica)
:rofl
Monkeys do have apposable thumbs. Four of them actually.
As you were.
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"The perception"... like christians hate any one who dosen't believe in what they believe in... and everyone who doesn't believe in what they believe in will burn in hell... and will not go to heaven... that's a rather arogant point of view.
See, there you go. Who said Christians hate anyone who doesn't believe in what they believe in? You really, really have a superficial knowledge of Christianity.
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Well, this is the usual retarded thread concerning christianity. I think this all started about whether or not it is biblical to have gay bishops governing a church?
It is, of course, NOT biblical. (and if anybody here wants to argue that I'm ready :))
That is if you know how to read and look up scripture and be objective.
Now, of course, there's the narrow-minded hate filled people here who would paint anybody who wants to follow the bible as a homophobe.
No matter how you want homosexuality to be accepted, it just won't ever be to people who actually respect the bible. Don't believe the bible? Think homosexuality is ok? Then guess what, DON'T call yourself a christian. Is that so hard?
Can people not accept that their lifestyle goes against the teachings of the bible? What's the big deal?
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Originally posted by -tronski-
You see the bible which is the word of God, is therefore infallible (aparently), then all of the teachings of the bible must be correctly followed should it not?
Typical fallacy. The whole point of the New Testament is that the old law is no longer binding because of Christ.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Furthermore all you biblical scholars.... if the bible is the authority of morality and who and who can not be "ordained" as a holy man to lead god's soiled and retched flock into the promised land..
Well... you are all Onanners!
8: And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9: And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10: And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
Genesis 38:4,8-10; 46:12; Numbers 26:19; 1 Chronicles 2:3)
Note: This is God telling a guy to go sleep with his brothers wife.
You see the LORD ALMIGHTY DOG, ALLAH, JEHOVA, ALI, THE GREAT CREATOR, ETERNAL SPIRIT, The DUDE...
Well, he doesn't like masturbators either... so if you have a noodle... and you've ever abused it out side of a wedlocked Vagina .. you're going to BURN IN THE BRIMSTONE FIRES OF HELL FOR ETERNITY!
I don't care what a priest says... they are all masturbators... which is just as an abmination in the eyes of god as a homosexual.
Ok well I don't believe in this B/S I'm just letting you what God told me last night while I was flogging my log and getting my behind beat to a rosey glow by Ma'dame Olga Dementrix.
Funny how the bible doesn't mention women lieing down with women being wrong... that's because.. the dudes who wrote that non-sense liked to watch lesbo acts and donkey shows.
Thre's so much wrong with your attempt here I don't have time. I'll make it as simple as possible. Read the book of hebrews.
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Originally posted by hblair
Can people not accept that their lifestyle goes against the teachings of the bible? What's the big deal?
Can people not accept that for some, homosexuality is not a lifestyle?
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Originally posted by Kieran
How does it affect my personal relationship? It doesn't directly.
It affects Christianity and the perception people have of it.
It erodes core beliefs of Christianity.
It moves attention away from God and places it on an individual.
As a child my pastor said something that resonates to this day...
"If someone is between you and God, that person is closer to God than you are."
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Typical fallacy. The whole point of the New Testament is that the old law is no longer binding because of Christ.
So therefor "Gays are an abominantion" is no longer binding... because that's in the old law.
I love this logic...
God: "Hey guys... I made a mistake with the last convenant .. you know the one that said an eye-for-an-eye, vengence is mine, you know the cutting the foreskin thing (can't believe you actually did that - I was just joking ... hahah! By the way... it's for her pleasure...That's what the Mrs wanted... yes there is a Mrs. G), Any way... to continue... the separation of dairy and meats, smearing blood on the doorway, plague, locust and damnation upon every one who does not believe in me... ok that's all null and void.. you don't have to do that any more... tell you what I'm sending this JC dude to you... he's my only son... he's going to explain everything.. tell you these simplistic stories so you'll understand what the "new deal" is all about.. he'll do some miracles...he's a reall cool dude... he's actually black.. but you can paint him as white, brown hair, with blue eyes... even though he's aramaic.. black hair, dark brown eyes, dark skinned.. you can crucify him when he really irritates you.. here's the new deal... you can sin all you want, do what ever you want.. just ask for forgiveness and believe in this dude and you'll be ok with me... now some of the old testiment applies.. and some of it doesn't... I won't tell you which parts... you can debate that amongst your selfs... ok well.. I have to go and do godly things.. because I work in mysterious ways ... no more burning bushes or Prophets any more... JC has it all covered... I'll be back by judgement day which is a millenium from now (haha figure that one out!) You dudes crack me up"
:rofl
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Can people not accept that for some, homosexuality is not a lifestyle?
And here's the whole crux of the issue. NO, a christian cannot just accept it. Bible says homosexuality is an abomination, and unnatural. That's a fact, there's no doubt about what it says. If a person is REALLY a christain and REALLY believes the bible is the inspired word of God, then how does he get around this point? Does he just ignore it? If he does is he really following the scripture? Be objective. Even a nonbeliever can see this. You'd think so anyway.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
You obviously don't watch the discovery channel....
They had video of a tribe of monkies not only engaging in homosexual activities... but also incest... orgies... mutual masturbation... fornication with fruits and vegitables... porno pants and leather fetishes... as well as biker-type bondage and S&M...
(ok the S&M part I threw in because that's my kink - hey don't knock it until you try it.. I'm sure if monkies had opposible thumbs they would be indulging in the more refined erotica)
:rofl
And what do apes have to do with us?
I mean besides sharing 99% of our DNA?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Can people not accept that for some, homosexuality is not a lifestyle?
NO:aok
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Originally posted by hblair
And here's the whole crux of the issue. NO, a christian cannot just accept it. Bible says homosexuality is an abomination, and unnatural. That's a fact, there's no doubt about what it says. If a person is REALLY a christain and REALLY believes the bible is the inspired word of God, then how does he get around this point? Does he just ignore it? If he does is he really following the scripture? Be objective. Even a nonbeliever can see this. You'd think so anyway.
Very good point!!!! I think you just summed it up:aok
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
So therefor "Gays are an abominantion" is no longer binding... because that's in the old law.
It's in the NT too.
Originally posted by DmdNexus
I love this logic...
Makes sense doesn't it?
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Originally posted by hblair
Thre's so much wrong with your attempt here I don't have time. I'll make it as simple as possible. Read the book of hebrews.
It's about right and wrong isn't it...
it's so simple isn't.. yet how many denomination of Christians are there?
How many variations?
Are Mormons chrisitians?
Are Catholics chrisitians?
Are Fundamentalists christians?
Baptists? Prostitants?
Same religion? Same God?
They all read the same bible right?
Yet they all have a different interpretation of how God wants us to lead our lives... yet they read the very same book!
The Catholic religion cannonized the bible at the Council of Nicea to settle the Arian controversy in 325... what happen to the apocrypha writings? Possible holy scripture lost in antiquity.
All christian variations use the same book the Catholics created... Perhaps the C's distorted the very book that everyone reads today?
Or is it possible that God influenced those "holy" men to do the right thing... yet some how... he's abandoned the men of today.
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Sry there is No way to justify a man putting his wang up another mans arse.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Sry there is No way to justify a man putting his wang up another mans arse.
And how many of you have done this to a woman?
How is that different?
And hairiness is not what I'm talking about...
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
And how many of you have done this to a woman?
How is that different?
And hairiness is not what I'm talking about...
Are you having trouble seeing the difference between a man and woman?
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What part of my statement didn't you understand?
If you don't have a problem with your kids being around mentally ill people then let me go to a nut house and grab a patient and turn him loose in a room with your kids and we'll see what happens.
I would try to argue with you DmdNexus but I can tell you are in the "To Pity" category and I would be wasting my time.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Are you having trouble seeing the difference between a man and woman?
Just so I understand: butt sex is ok, as long its between a man and a woman?
-Sik
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
And how many of you have done this to a woman?
How is that different?
And hairiness is not what I'm talking about...
Ugh, speak for yourself. Sounds kind of gay to me.
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Alright, now I am convinced. Mrblack is gay and hates himself for it.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Just so I understand: butt sex is ok, as long its between a man and a woman?
-Sik
Well the Bible calls it sodomy and it is wrong.
So if you try to live you'r life by the Bible Or in my case you'r wife Is a black belt in Kenpo you leave them bootys alone.
:aok
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Originally posted by Furious
Alright, now I am convinced. Mrblack is gay and hates himself for it.
And you sir are a mental midget:aok
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Originally posted by mrblack
And you sir are a mental midget:aok
speak for yourself
I view homosexuals as I do any other mentally ill person.
they arnt mentally ill...just because there different doesnt make them worse...though i wouldent expect a ignorant simpleton like you to understand it
I didn't put homosexuals in there with pedophiles and such. God does that with His word. Abomination is applied to homosexuality and child sacrifice. Pedophile is a very light analogy by comparison. Look, typically you guys will ask why a religious guy is against homosexuality, and when he quotes scripture you get all huffy about it. I don't have to hate anyone to tell you what God said about them.
1. i beleive somewhere in there he told someone to sacrifice his only son...
2. the scripture is wrong...its written in the way that people of the time saw it...2000 years ago being gay relatively rare and veiwed by the general public in that way and they wrote it down that way...
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
It's about right and wrong isn't it...
it's so simple isn't.. yet how many denomination of Christians are there?
How many variations?
Are Mormons chrisitians?
Are Catholics chrisitians?
Are Fundamentalists christians?
Baptists? Prostitants?
Same religion? Same God?
They all read the same bible right?
Yet they all have a different interpretation of how God wants us to lead our lives... yet they read the very same book!
I thought we were talking about homosexuals. :)
But you bring up a good point. Which ones of those above are mentioned in the bible? Or better yet, does the word denomination appear in the bible? :eek:
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Originally posted by vorticon
2. the scripture is wrong...its written in the way that people of the time saw it...2000 years ago being gay relatively rare and veiwed by the general public in that way and they wrote it down that way...
Aah, so homosexuality is a modern thing?:)
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no...but its a lot more common (or at least open) nowadays...something about us getting out of the ignorant veiws of the past...and its become acceptable to be gay by society...scripture was slighty skewed by the writers veiw on thing...wich we can only assume was essentially what society felt like...with minor personal veiws messing about with it as well
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Originally posted by vorticon
no...but its a lot more common (or at least open) nowadays...something about us getting out of the ignorant veiws of the past...and its become acceptable to be gay by society...scripture was slighty skewed by the writers veiw on thing...wich we can only assume was essentially what society felt like...with minor personal veiws messing about with it as well
Vorticon, you have heard of the ancient Romans, right?
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they arnt mentally ill...just because there different doesnt make them worse...though i wouldent expect a ignorant simpleton like you to understand it
You know I've never looked at it like that before....they arnt mentally ill good argument you've convinced me. I think I'll go right out and get butt fvcked.
BTW I may be a simpleton but at least I know how to use a spell checker.
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i have made my point...you can argue over what it means but ill be damned if im going to try repeating it so you can understand
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hey mr black i know some nice gay men that would like to meet you for a hot time on the town. Might as well come out of the closet dude.
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Originally posted by vorticon
no...but its a lot more common (or at least open) nowadays...something about us getting out of the ignorant veiws of the past...and its become acceptable to be gay by society...scripture was slighty skewed by the writers veiw on thing...wich we can only assume was essentially what society felt like...with minor personal veiws messing about with it as well
So you think society today is MORE open about homosexuality than the romans were 2000 years ago? :eek:
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Originally posted by Kieran
Vorticon, you have heard of the ancient Romans, right?
Homosexuals are Italian?
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gay thing who cares? all your hateing them gives them power over you. and will continue to do so till you stop hateing. it will probly never happen but its the truth.
and kieren stop looking to the bible to find justifications of your oppinions. in effect you have raised your oppinions to the level of commandments. that aint right.
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MrBlack
I smell BULLCHIT.
Like I said anyone can write a paper on anything.
It don't make it so!
And If that accured in nature too much there would be NO animales.(hint the studmuffins aint found a way to have babies yet)
Do the math it is simple no race wether it be the human or whatever will survive if there is no coupling between male and female.
I mean for crying out loud just look at human genitalia
It only FITS one way.
Sometimes I think God must be looking down at us and shaking his head
Last time I checked the bible was written on paper by man, through multiple languages (2 of which are dead). So how do you know the bible is correct or incorrect? Ever play grapevine in school or been to engrish.com, people interpret languages differently and it is very difficult to get the nuances of language even for people speaking it for years. There are Ten laws, rules, whatever of God.
As far as genitalia ever receive oral sex, that's sodomy in case you were wondering which according to the bible is a pretty major sin.
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
All the rest was written by man, therefore all the rest is fallable. So looking at the "words of God" nothing in there says a damn thing about homosexuality, that was added by man's view. Which by your own admission can be crap.
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p.s. guess who most samuri dated?
hint they carried swords :)
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TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
it should read
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house;"
and if that is correct then its ok if its my ox donkey or male servant???
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Originally posted by mrblack
Well the Bible calls it sodomy and it is wrong.
Damn, blowjobs are out too then? ****, I'm done for!
-Sik
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I just did a quick search for it Vorticon, got it from a christian site.
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Originally posted by narsus
TEN: MALE servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
Whats that part about MALE servant?
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Originally posted by hblair
It's in the NT too.
Good Hblair, have been looking for someone who knew where to look, please give me the location, book and verses, in NT
:cool:
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
hey mr black i know some nice gay men that would like to meet you for a hot time on the town. Might as well come out of the closet dude.
LOL:rofl
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Originally posted by crabofix
Good Hblair, have been looking for someone who knew where to look, please give me the location, book and verses, in NT
:cool:
For starters...
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
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for starters the bible is a joke that has been rewritten and poorly translated by 100's of people of the years. Its just a collection of fairy tales to help primitive minds deal with the world around them. If you need it to help you get through life, great whatever. Just dont try and justify killing people with it.
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Now Hblair, don't go disproving the argument God only disapproved of homosexuality in the Old Testament. That wouldn't be nice.
Are you up to refuting the "Cliff's Notes" collection of commonly used Bible phrases thrown together out of context? I have to admit, that is a rut we get into so often here.
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for starters the bible is a joke that has been rewritten and poorly translated by 100's of people of the years.
How do you know this Frogman? Just curious.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
gay thing who cares? all your hateing them gives them power over you. and will continue to do so till you stop hateing. it will probly never happen but its the truth.
and kieren stop looking to the bible to find justifications of your oppinions. in effect you have raised your oppinions to the level of commandments. that aint right.
The Christian stance isn't to hate homosexuals, it's to turn away from sin. Homosexuality is a sin. Just as with any other sin, Christians are supposed to witness and explain God's Word and intent. If that sounds like hate to you, what can I say?
Where should a person of faith look to find justification for opinions of this nature, hmm? Sorry, but that's the way it works. And it IS right.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
You know I've never looked at it like that before....they arnt mentally ill good argument you've convinced me. I think I'll go right out and get butt fvcked.
BTW I may be a simpleton but at least I know how to use a spell checker.
OMG sig material!
p.s it is "aren't"
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
for starters the bible is a joke that has been rewritten and poorly translated by 100's of people of the years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Elfie
How do you know this Frogman? Just curious.
A shrub in the forest uttered the truth to him as it was consumed by fire, but not destroyed.
>end of joke
>>start of a basic truth
Athiesm is a faith in the non-existance of a diety.
Thiestic thought is a faith in His existance.
Agnosticism is a realization that one cannot sucessfully resolve the basic is he or isn't he question.
To believe in the nonexistance of God is just as illogical in the belief in Him.
Arguement is based upon logic and religious belief is based upon faith. You cannot sucessfully argue faith as the two thought processes (logic and faith) are mutually exclusive. This thread as it is presently going is pointless.
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>for starters the bible is a joke that has been rewritten and
>poorly translated by 100's of people of the years.
The bible is about power.
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There is a good reason to stand behind the Bible... no really
Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
I love that book! :D
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Originally posted by hblair
For starters...
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Yes, this is what its says.
But you can not pull it out from the whole text. Paulus is here discribing the past. He also mentions a couple of other things that makes us deserve "death", equal to theese peoples acts,
"heartless, loveless, talk back to their parents, warmongers, wicked, egoistic"
This is mentioned in the same breath.
He is talking about why Jesus had to come to the world. He is explaining how the profecy´s is fullfilled, to the Jew and to the greek.
The reference is only to what accured in the past.
In the next chapter he says, that you can not judge others, because if you do, you judge yourself. You are not better then the ones you judge. He also askes if you dont belive in Gods natur of never ending goodness and patiance.
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Look my view is this.
Judging a gay person is just as bad as being gay.
So we are all sinners .
And in the end it really is between that person and GOD.
None of my buisness.
Nobody here will believe me but i do have Gay friends.
they know how I feel.
The respect my hetrosexuality and I respect there homosexuality.
Don't mean I aprove but then again it aint up to me to aprove of anyone now is it!!
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I first took interested in this thread because I thought the title read, "Gay Bishop Castrated." :eek: :lol
Castrated...consecrated...sam e difference.
1) Priests are a bunch of child molesters.
2) Churches are a mechanism for control.
3) God didn't make either one that way; they became what they are because man is blindly ignorant.
TBolt
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Originally posted by crabofix
Yes, this is what its says.
But you can not pull it out from the whole text. Paulus is here discribing the past. He also mentions a couple of other things that makes us deserve "death", equal to theese peoples acts,
"heartless, loveless, talk back to their parents, warmongers, wicked, egoistic"
This is mentioned in the same breath.
He's talking about "all ungodliness and unrighteousness". Sexual immorality being among these. Sure, according to the bible there are more sins. I obviously don't dispute that.
Originally posted by crabofix
He is talking about why Jesus had to come to the world. He is explaining how the profecy´s is fullfilled, to the Jew and to the greek. The reference is only to what accured in the past.
In the next chapter he says, that you can not judge others, because if you do, you judge yourself. You are not better then the ones you judge. He also askes if you dont belive in Gods natur of never ending goodness and patiance.
Paul is obviously speaking of those who hold themselves above their brethren, and scornfully judge them. Christ also dealt with this. These passages aren't an "end all to showing your brother where he has erred in the faith". All you have to do is read some of pauls letters. How many times did he correct people who erred? Using the old "Gods love and goodness makes it ok to do whatever" arguement is just basic bible ignorance.
Galatians 5 19-25 deals with sexual immorality in the PRESENT tense. It's not just an old testament thing.
BTW, whats your opinion on matthew 5:29-30?
Again, this is just what the bible says, not my opinion. The whole point of this is to show how ridiculous it is to have a "gay priest". The two DO NOT go together according to the bible.
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I would only add to that I do allow the Bible to help me form opinions. I don't see a problem with that.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
for starters the bible is a joke that has been rewritten and poorly translated by 100's of people of the years.
Actually the dead sea scrolls which were found in 1947 are proof that the old testiment, at least, has been reliably translated and transcribed for thousands of years.
That's not to say that their interpretation and the NT hare totaly misconstrued.
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Whats that part about MALE servant?
I've always read the covets as you shouldnt envy your neigbor, if your neighbor gets a maid you shouldnt feel you need to get one too. Or a pool, a type of car...whatever, back in those days people had servants and if you had an ox or donkey you were doing fairly well. You shouldn't want what your neighbor has, envy isn't healthy.
That's my take.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
I would try to argue with you... but ...
What you are saying is you are incapable of arguing your point of you because it is you who needs the pity.
And your lack of sensativity towards mentally ill people by referring to sending them to a "Nut house" is characteristic of the typical hate that comes from Christians.
If they don't match your color, race, religion, and creed... out cast them...
That's Christian love for you.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
What you are saying is you are incapable of arguing your point of you because it is you who needs the pity.
And your lack of sensativity towards mentally ill people by referring to sending them to a "Nut house" is characteristic of the typical hate that comes from Christians.
If they don't match your color, race, religion, and creed... out cast them...
That's Christian love for you.
Newsflash: Mighty isn't a Christian. How do I know? He's my brother.
Care to rephrase your comments?
As to the rest of your content, that's just ignorance.
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You know Kieran is completely correct. He is basing his opinion on his Christian beliefs and has every right to hold them.
Where this inevitably leads then is to another example of the necessity for separation of church and state. Christians are expected to believe that homosexuals are an "abomination". This should have no bearing on the rights and priviledges they hold in our society.
(hows that for a mini hijack?)
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Originally posted by hblair
Using the old "Gods love and goodness makes it ok to do whatever" arguement is just basic bible ignorance.
Galatians 5 19-25 deals with sexual immorality in the PRESENT tense. It's not just an old testament thing.
BTW, whats your opinion on matthew 5:29-30?
It is not ignorance to belive In the Love Of God and his never ending goodness, it is not OK to do whatever either. But theres no messure in how great or small a sin is.
So the word in Gal 5:19-25 deals "only" with sexual immortality?
Then I sugest that you read it again. If it says the same thing the second time: Go and buy a Bible.
My opinion on Matt 5:29-30? I don´t know if I can have an "opinion". Are you making a poll to get this passage taken away from the Bible?
People suffer everyday, because people "interpurate" the Word and they judge others. Theres people saying that they are choosen by God to kill others. People who say that they are rich, because God blessed them.
It´s not really my problem, cause it is not what I belive.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
for starters the bible is a joke that has been rewritten and poorly translated by 100's of people of the years. Its just a collection of fairy tales to help primitive minds deal with the world around them. If you need it to help you get through life, great whatever. Just dont try and justify killing people with it.
For starters you're the joke. Not just because of the above post but because you portray yourself as a retard in just about every religious thread. You need to establish a baseline of having a little sense, THEN on occasion troll a bit. The above post is mostly percieved as just some ignorant kids opinion, which after all, it may be anyway.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You know Kieran is completely correct. He is basing his opinion on his Christian beliefs and has every right to hold them.
Where this inevitably leads then is to another example of the necessity for separation of church and state. Christians are expected to believe that homosexuals are an "abomination". This should have no bearing on the rights and priviledges they hold in our society.
(hows that for a mini hijack?)
I have absolutely no problem with that at all, and that is the way it is supposed to be. I am not denying, nor am I attempting to deny, the rights of homosexuals in society. I don't agree with them, but I don't agree with most liberals, either.
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Originally posted by hblair
For starters you're the joke. Not just because of the above post but because you portray yourself as a retard in just about every religious thread. You need to establish a baseline of having a little sense, THEN on occasion troll a bit. The above post is mostly percieved as just some ignorant kids opinion, which after all, it may be anyway.
:rofl
HBlair, would you consider you self open minded?
What is ignorant is that people still believe in the Judeo-Christian bunk... Proverbs is a lovely book talking about smearing honey on genitals... and eating dates to cure ailments... words inspired by God? Or words based upon ignorant tribal mysticism.
Oh wait... ignore that part of the bible...
and ignore the part of the bible about putting people to death when they talk a bad about their parents...
"Wait you all aren't reading it right... you're all ignorant and retarded".
:rofl :rofl
Sure we are... and the earth is the center of the universe, and gavity doesn't exist... and the world is flat..
I'm glad so many "smart" people like Copernicus, Galileo, and Darwin didn't believe in the religion of the day... which was based upon what? oh that's right Christianity and that retarded book the bible.
The same religion today that doesn't want stem cell research, sex education in school, and wants women to be not to be in control of their bodies.
The same book that talks about incest, polygamy, adultry, and child molestation as being... ok!
And no one has authority to talk about except people who are believers... even the believers can't agree as to what it says... that's because it's stupid! :lol
And they are the ones who are too retarded to see that! :rofl
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Now remind me, Nexus, why your opinion on gays as bishops is relevant to a Christian? ;)
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Originally posted by Kieran
Now remind me, Nexus, why your opinion on gays as bishops is relevant to a Christian? ;)
It's not! :lol
I couldn't care less... what the Christians think about Bishops, gays or milky ways bars.
I did spend 15 years espousing Christianity my self... and I did study the bible at one time... thankfully, I've forgotten most of that crapola.
Ok so this Bishop guy is gay... is he planning on continuing his Gayness? Like frequenting gay bars.... is that against the bible?
What if I have friends that are Gay... can I associate with them as a Christian? Or I should shun them because they are sinners?
what really confuses me.. is that only God can judge people... and yet Christens are constantly judging every one else and them selves... and passing gas... I mean judgement. :rofl
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did you guys know most people born blind are gay? why is that?
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It's too bad in 15 years you didn't learn something.
We are instructed to go out and witness- to whom? Certainly not the believers, they already believe.
That's right, to the unbelievers. We witness to those in sin who don't know they're in sin, or those that are and do know. This doesn't mean we don't sin, because we do. We aren't perfect either, and anyone who tells you he or she is isn't a Christian.
So the numerous assertions that gays are hated and shunned by Christians is not true. It goes against Christian teaching. Being against the action is not being against the person- people smart enough to understand politics can certainly understand that concept.
Finally, Christians don't "pass judgement", they tell you what the Bible says. God already stated how He feels about the subject, so my judgement if it did occur would be meaningless.
Feel free to stick in words like "hate" as you wish, but it does tell me you didn't pick up much in 15 years worth of "study".
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Originally posted by crabofix
It is not ignorance to belive In the Love Of God and his never ending goodness, it is not OK to do whatever either. But theres no messure in how great or small a sin is.
Good points.
Originally posted by crabofix
So the word in Gal 5:19-25 deals "only" with sexual immortality?
Then I sugest that you read it again. If it says the same thing the second time: Go and buy a Bible.
uhhh, I mentioned sexual immorality because thats the topic being discussed. Where did I say that was all that scripture dealt with?
Originally posted by crabofix
My opinion on Matt 5:29-30? I don´t know if I can have an "opinion". Are you making a poll to get this passage taken away from the Bible?
Who said anything about taking verses from the bible? I was just seeing what you thought Christ was saying there. That's all.
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:rofl :rofl :rofl Teee Heee!!! nexus put me in my place!!:rofl :rofl why didn't i think of that!!:D :rofl :aok :D
:)
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Originally posted by Kieran
It's too bad in 15 years you didn't learn something.
You mean it's too bad I don't believe in your point of view.
It's too bad you haven't realized that the bible you believe in is filled with tribal mysticism.... wrought with contradictions and idiotic stupid superstitions... as pointed out by my self and others in this thready and holding up for your consideration actual quotes from this "godly" "infallible" work .... yet these quotes are dismissed.... "you read it out of context"... "you're ignorant", "you don't understand"...
Yet... you can't explain... and yet "an abomination" in the eyes of god means what it says.... and all these other hateful words don't?
Where in the bible does it talk about lesbians?
And adultry... many of the spiritual leaders.. Abraham... practice polygamy... adultry... incest... and this were all OK with God.
Killing the children of enemies of the Jews... was also OK with God - what a contradiction when compared with loving, kind, peaceful, forgiving, turn-the-other-cheek tone of the NT.
What's wrong with God? PMS or bi-polar disorder?
Originally posted by Kieran
We are instructed to go out and witness- to whom? Certainly not the believers, they already believe.
You sound like a Mormon.
Originally posted by Kieran
So the numerous assertions that gays are hated and shunned by Christians is not true.
Not true? You forget the boycott of Disneyland by the Southern Baptists.
Here's a link for you... it's from Christian News...so it doesn't have that libral gay limp-wrist slant.
http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/Archive/CUL19990708d.html
You forget the many laws that are anti-Gay - sodomy laws.
You forget they have for many years been persecuted by loss of job..
And why for so long they've had to live in the "closet".
Finally, Christians don't "pass judgement",
Hell if they don't... I guess killing doctor's who perform abortion... is.. what... a form of Christian education? Write some scription on a bullet... and then pass it through their brain.
Christian churches are notorious breeding grounds for bigots, especially against interracial marriages.
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You're on the attack nexus. You really oughta calm down and back off a bit. Wipe the foam off your mouth man. Your style of trying to put words in others mouths and stereotyping is unbecoming of you.
I mean look at the big picture here. This threads about whether or not it is ok to have gay bishops. It has been pointed out by some here that christianity according to the bible and homosexuality don't go together.
Now you come along to the rescue the down trodden homosexuals. What do you do to help them? Insult the christians of course! :lol You attempt to humiliate them because they don't just conform to your idea of social acceptance. Look at this with an objective mind. You are definetly the bigot here. You really should be more tolerant of other peoples viewpoints.
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Moreover, you haven't proven "hate".
If I find a store that engages in behavior I dislike, I don't hate the owner. I just don't go to the store.
If there are rules passed I don't agree with, I will work to undo them.
It doesn't seem possible for you to see this separation, which can only leave me to conclude you really don't understand Christianity. How long you claimed to have studied is irrelevant.
Maybe you can provide me with a definition of hate as you see it? For me, not giving approval for certain behaviors does not equate hate. Not going to Disney because I choose not to expose my kids to homosexuals is not hate. FWIW, I did show up on gay day at Disney, quite by accident because when my wife asked the ticket agent if anything special was going on that weekend they said "no". Not a place I would have taken my family by choice on that particular day, and I felt as though Disney lied to my wife. We didn't picket. We just won't give Disney any more of our money.
Oh, your scathing rebuttal (You sound like a Mormon)... what's that supposed to mean? Don't tackle the content, avoid it by all means. If your earlier position is that Christians hate and shun homosexuals, how do you reconcile the Christian position of seeking out sinners?
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If I say anything offensive here, let me know, as I don't mean to be. I thought about the fact that I have these conversations with my best friend all the time and never manage to work up any of the spite that gets thrown around from the keyboard. He's a mormon, btw :). Oh, and whether it was relevant or not, I'm sure Nexus was referring to the Mormon practice of bringing religion to the masses by going door to door.
Here's where I think some of the confusion lies with non-Christians...with me anyway. First of all, I don't feel there's anything wrong with someone being a homosexual and I don't feel they woke up one morning and decided they liked man meat instead of chicks. As such, I think asking a homosexual to stop being homosexual is rediculous. How would you feel about switching from women to men...or to just stop having sex with your wife? Didn't think so. With the thought in mind that a homosexual man or woman would feel the same way you do in the opposite direction, a homosexual probably wouldn't feel remorseful. As such, you believe they are going to hell. They could be a saint in every other aspect of their life, but still you think they're going to hell. And that's where it hits that maybe you've got other than positive feelings for this type of person.
Right or wrong, whatever, I'm just trying to clue you in to exactly what brings me to thought that you might hold hate for homosexuals. It also brings up confusion as to how you could worship a god who is so spiteful as to sentence someone to eternal damnation for an act that really doesn't harm anyone and is practiced between two consenting human beings.
I believe you when you say you don't hate them, though.
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And adultery... many of the spiritual leaders.. Abraham... practice polygamy... adultry... incest... and this were all OK with God.
Abraham's *adultery* was with his wife Sarah's handmaiden. In those days it was very important to have an heir to leave your belongings to. I do believe Sarah was his only wife which would mean he was not a polygamist. As far as Abraham and incest...which of his family (besides his wife Sarah) does the Bible say he had sexual relations with?
Also, God didnt say incest and adultery were wrong until long after Abraham's time. Those *laws* are set down in the book of Leviticus.
As far as polygamy goes, it is still acceptable in some cultures today.
Hell if they don't... I guess killing doctor's who perform abortion... is.. what... a form of Christian education? Write some scription on a bullet... and then pass it through their brain.
That was a crime performed by some misguided person. I don't know of anyone who would condone that kind of action. But to lay the blame for the actions of an individual on an entire group is rediculous.
*edit* Just found Abraham's 2nd wife in Genesis chapter 25. However he took his 2nd wife (Keturah) after his first wife Sarah had died.
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That's a fair set of statements, SOB.
People don't seem to have a problem with the thought "God-given talents". What they often fail to remember is God didn't make people perfect- suggesting we all have weaknesses. Who gave us the weakness? God? If so, why? I could say it is in keeping with the message we cannot be saved without Grace, and that we are given the challenges we personally need to show us we need Him. He promises us we will be tested, but we will never be given more than we can bear- so long as we depend on Him.
So, is it possible God made homosexuals? Not likely, more like He allows it to happen. But, for the sake of the argument let's say He does. Does it matter in the long haul? I say this because IF He makes homosexuals, then it is fair to say He makes murderers, thieves, adulterers, pedophiles, and all the other sinners out there the way they are. EVEN IF this is true (and believe me, this is a stretch) God tells you what you have to do- turn away from sin and follow Him. You don't have to be perfect, in fact you can't be perfect, but you have to try.
Getting on to hate... God does not hate the person, God hates the sin. He talks to his people and talks of the people He detests, but He is talking of their lifestyle. God says that He loves every one of us, and every one of us is important to Him, but it is our choice to do what is right and what He tells us. We are responsible for those choices, and He will punish us for rejecting Him and His word. God also knows when people reach the point of no return- he is after all God- and will destroy the people in punishment and as an example to the remaining. Harsh? Yes. But it isn't the body God is interested in, it's the soul, which is eternal.
Does He condemn some sinners to hell? Of course. What that hell is of course is open to debate. Is it the lake of fire literally, or was that a way to describe the pain of total separation from God? I dunno. One school of thought suggests that God Himself doesn't condemn people so much as they condemn themselves by choosing to be apart from Him. Whatever form hell takes, in that scenario the people have done it to themselves.
As far as judging other is concerned, that's not my job. I can relate what the Bible says and my understanding of it, that's about it. As for worshipping a God that does what my God does, that isn't a "choice"; either I believe it or I don't. Well, I suppose that's not true, exactly... I could believe it and reject it nonetheless. Satan certainly believes in God.
Heaven... who gets in, who doesn't? I can't even comfortably say my salvation is assured. My religion says it is, but I dunno... I know I sin every day, and I know I could work harder for Him. The Bible speaks of "crowns" and such in heaven, suggesting a heirarchy. I often imagine myself shining boots for all eternity, while people like Billy Graham and Mother Theresa sit by the pool in the everlasting twilight of the Garden of Eden, sipping cocktails. What I guess I'm saying is I have no way of knowing for sure who gets in and who doesn't. Homosexuality is an abomination to God, but that doesn't mean all homosexuals are doomed to hell. Only God gets to make that call.
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Amazing how many replies to a thread just over a gay Bishop.
Intriguing, since the church is full of gay Bishops in the first place. Unfortunetly it seems that stating the fact that your gay is the cause of so much controversy.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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Originally posted by Elfie
which of his family (besides his wife Sarah) does the Bible say he had sexual relations with?
I think he mixed up Abraham and his relative, Lot, who was tricked into sex with his daugthers, by his daughters.
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any more christian love and your gonna need a gun.
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this thread is so gay
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I think he mixed up Abraham and his relative, Lot, who was tricked into sex with his daugthers, by his daughters.
Good point Crab, that is most likely it. Lots daughters tricked him into sleeping with him. The Bible never says that God condoned that.
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Another case of incest occurred with David's son, Amnon, who raped his sister. In the end, Absolom (his brother) killed Amnon. Of course all of this happened in the first place because David committed adultry with Bathsheba. God didn't commit the adultry, rape or murder. He didn't condone it. They were the consequences of the actions of David.
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Originally posted by Gixer
Amazing how many replies to a thread just over a gay Bishop.
Intriguing, since the church is full of gay Bishops in the first place. Unfortunetly it seems that stating the fact that your gay is the cause of so much controversy.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
That's one of my problems with this whole thing. I am not Catholic, yet the actions of that church impact the perception of Christianity for all Christians. You won't find many Baptists supporting what the Catholic church has done. Likewise for the Anglican church. Yet, to those of you who aren't in the faith, you lump them all together.
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Vulcan wrote:
p.s it is "aren't"
I know....I was responding to vorticon in his own words.