Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Holden McGroin on November 03, 2003, 07:21:02 PM
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BRUSSELS (AFP) - The European Union (news - web sites) scrambled to contain the fallout from a public opinion poll that -- to Israel's fury -- labelled the Jewish state the biggest threat to world peace.
The United States was just behind Israel in the global danger league, in joint second place with North Korea (news - web sites) and Iran, according to the "Eurobarometer" poll requested by the European Commission.
Holden's comment:
Look's like the Hamas strategy of killing city bus passengers and restaurant patrons is paying off.
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LOL!
I wonder who they would say was the biggest contributer to the world's peace..... Arafat?
lol
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Originally posted by NUKE
LOL!
I wonder who they would say was the biggest contributer to the world's peace..... Arafat?
lol
Europe of course, especially France and Germany!!!! And the UN!!!
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I found an article about the press conference announcing the results, man this is just nutz...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3235909.stm (http://stevenlehrer.com/images/Hitlerkroll.jpg)
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LOL Grun
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I agree with EU, it was horrible when Israel invaded Kuwait.
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What a surprise, the EU is showing its true colors again.
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Yeah, the 7500 people surveyed for that poll (http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20031101-102019-5361r.htm) sure represent the entire EU really well.
I don't agree with the poll's whopping 59% majority - calling Israel the biggest thread to world peace is simply stupid - but this thing is in no way representing any EU countries' position on the middle-east issue nor does the poll reveal the "EU's true colors" or whatever. It's just a poll, jeez.
You guys are painting with pretty broad brushes there.
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7500 is a pretty big sampling. And the results do match EU attitudes toward international matters.
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Let's see... plenty of Islamic inmigration in most European countries... and I want this poll to draw some attention... hmm... who should I interview?
I really really doubt that any spaniard would respond Israel to that particular question. More like Pakistan, India, North Korea, China...
Daniel
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Originally posted by Redwing
It's just a poll, jeez.
It's the EU government's poll. If it is wrong, take it up with them. They comissioned it.
Looks like it was the EU's paintbrush.
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Europes support of the final solution is well documented.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Europes support of the final solution is well documented.
Just as well documented as america's insistance to stand by and allow it to happend without doing anything.
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Holden McGroin: Euro pole
The European Union ... public opinion poll that -- to Israel's fury -- labelled the Jewish state the biggest threat to world peace.
Heh - "Euro pole". Nice play on words.
You think that europeans are now as great anti-semites as the poles, or was that a typo?
miko
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Europole: (n) or: compound Euro ref. to Europe, esp. EU: - pole ref. to opinion survey: An opinion pole commissioned by the European Union government.
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It's a strange "résumé" of a 265 page document ...
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europe didn't have a proper war in over 50 years, so they think the world is at peace - just like their neibourhood.
The average person being interviewed for the poll must have understood it as "what country is most likely to engage in war (thus breaking world peace)".
I wouldn't take it too seriously. Euros are naive at best - not stupid.
Bozon
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he he they are so nieve, they just dont get airstrikes for peace. or a friendly international invasion. who is stupid again?
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Hey Vader-
If it's so great to be European....
Well, you know where DFW is....Have a nice flight, ya friggin' commie.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Hey Vader-
If it's so great to be European....
Well, you know where DFW is....Have a nice flight, ya friggin' commie.
Wouldn't Houston be closer? No... wait... that's out of the question, LDV would never fly out of George H. W. Bush International.;)
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Originally posted by Redwing
Yeah, the 7500 people surveyed for that poll (http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20031101-102019-5361r.htm) sure represent the entire EU really well.
I don't agree with the poll's whopping 59% majority - calling Israel the biggest thread to world peace is simply stupid - but this thing is in no way representing any EU countries' position on the middle-east issue nor does the poll reveal the "EU's true colors" or whatever. It's just a poll, jeez.
You guys are painting with pretty broad brushes there.
Ok my apology for the wide generalization.
unfortunatly it starting to sound like "SOME" europeans are ready to join the PLO.
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I'm not all surprised at this poll - there has an explosion of violent anti-semetism in Europe over the past few years - especially in the most enlightened leader nations of the continent - France and Germany...
These are troubling developments just by themselves, but taken together I think they point to a huge problem and quite frankly are very revealing of the character develping in Europe.
As for the poll itself a proprer sample of 7500 people is enormous. Even a well chosen sample of 1000 is good enough to represent US national opinion quite well - the general opinion of a country of 280 million.
If you euro types try to attack this poll you are only saying that your EU government is utterly incompetant in even the most basic statistical sampling techniques or that they are outright lying and have a propaganda agenda and so sample accordingle. In this case this would mean that the offical EU stance would be that Israel is evil warmonger etc. Do you guys belive that?
So it basically comes down to choice 3, that in fact 59% of Europeans, give or take a few points really belive Israel is the greatest threat to world peace and a warmonger etc.
Thats sad and pathetic and considering the hate crime trend, quite telling. I think a bunch of traditional euro jew haters are merely transferring their individual anti-semetism and masking it with anti Israel attitides as they are considerably more popular form of anti-semitic expression. Of course incresingly many euros dont even bother to mask these feeling any more and just openly commit these hate crimes.
I have edited this post a few times as I dont really want to upset you guys but dammit this seems to be dangerous trend over there and I think its silly thayou euro guys just wanna dismiss it..
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F*** the "Euros". Who cares what they think anyway? lol
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm not all surprised at this poll - there has an explosion of violent anti-semetism in Europe over the past few years - especially in the most enlightened leader nations of the continent - France and Germany...
What enlighten are you talking about ?
Aah must be same enlighten by calling people antisemitism
because they dont agree on parts of Israel polititics?
Now that convinced me Grünherz ;)
R
Gh0stFT
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
What enlighten are you talking about ?
Aah must be same enlighten by calling people antisemitism
because they dont agree on parts of Israel polititics?
Now that convinced me Grünherz ;)
R
Gh0stFT
Well I'm a brutish unsophisticated american - I only aspire to be as enligtened as euros but am shocked to see this behavior from those I so higly admire as my old and wise moral superiors in europe.
:rolleyes: :)
Well the recent increase in hate crimes against european jews leads me to think there is a connection between the two - meaning that people mask their usual age old european resentment and hatred of jews with the more accepted accepted hatred of israel, the jewish state...
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With Israelis, it's odd that they're jewish and bit over half a century ago a certain austrian corporal was the cause for holocaust, but for some reason this jewish state has been doing some of the same things as the austrian corporal.
This seems really odd to me, when they are so shocked about nazis but find nothing wrong with creating 'palestinian gettos'
Guess we're soon looking at public executions of suspected palestinian terrorists, 5 per every killed israeli. (or perhaps they'll be just jailed for indefinite time, just so it's more 'acceptable'... they did already do serial tattoos on some, but it became apparent the world didn't like the idea)
From here we get to the palestinians, who seem to be high on the islam religion.
Less surprisingly most terrorists are muslims, who sees themselves as some sort of allah's soldiers or whatever.
So they're very keen to blow up themselves to kill some israelis, but also other westerners, especially americans... who happens to be the allies of israel, americans the most.
These terrorists can calculate 1+1 and therefore are also attacking western 'targets' and meanwhile pissing off the westerners, especially americans, whos decided they have the right to go war mongering with a moments thought and even slander their allies if they're unwilling to join war mongering.
It could be understandable if americans wouldn't be slandering these whos unwilling to join their wars.. after all they're independent nations and not under the rule of US president, like many americans seem to been thinking - which why they seemed to expect that europeans were all willing to join their war mongering when the US president gave the order.
oops... US President couldn't order europeans to war after all, hes forgot hes only the president of U.S.A, not the president of western world.
So US goes to find WMD from Iraq and whilst it liberate its people from this evil dictators rule and bring democracy.
Of course it wasnt big surprise that the 'coalition' (US?) forces were able to bring down Iraq in no time, however it seemed to be a surprise they were supposed to actually stay there, spend money to Iraq and suffer fatalities at a rate of 1-2 per day plus even more wounded casualties.
Now some pro-war americans are crying how its costing money to rebuild Iraq and how their soldiers are dying there (..who surprisingly all have enlisted by their own free will, but who obviously weren't expecting to stay in Iraq for a long time, as if it wasn't a war but a merry trip to go kill the raghead terrorists and feel proud of serving for the country)
Meanwhile things are happening in Iraq, americans are already looking for the next target, whether it'd be sanctions on N.Korea or continuing to Iran from Iraq.
When viewing it this way, I can see well what those people in the poll has been thinking.
However I would place americans as #1 on the list, although Israelis would be the #1 in reenacting germanys 1930's, this time as the aggressors, however closely followed by americans, who would be more closer to germany from 1939 onwards.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well the recent increase in hate crimes against european jews leads me to think there is a connection between the two - meaning that people mask their usual age old european resentment and hatred of jews with the more accepted accepted hatred of israel, the jewish state...
The last anti-jew acts I've heard off were against poor member of the Betar :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Ahh so basically Fishu in your twisted euro world view Israel and America are like Nazi germany and Imperial Japan circa 1930s and I guess North Korea, Iran, China and the worldwide islamist exremist terrorists are the good guys?
Lemme ask you somethiung, are the terrorists and even saddam hussein and their behavir the least bit responsble for what began to happend to them on september 12 2001?
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Forgot to add it was between LDJ and betar member ...
Go figure :(
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wtg Fisu,
you just managed to scramble all the eggs to a one big meaningless omlet.
pretty much managed to squeeze in everything from comparing Israel to nazy germany, through stating that the palestinians are just muslim idiots attacking anything in sight, to the US world domination.
you are a true product of the popular media. I'm proud of you.
Bozon
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lemme ask you somethiung, are the terrorists and even saddam hussein and their behavir the least bit responsble for what began to happend to them on september 12 2001?
You're not claiming that Saddam had something to do with it?
but since you insist, have you ever thought there might been some mistakes from americans side which could've caused this to happen on a long run?
I doubt the terrorists all of the sudden figured to target americans.
Theres always a cause.
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Saddam brought the Iraq invasion on himself - he had everything to with his demise 12 years of bs from him was enough... Isnt that obvious?
If you are asking about 911 there isnt any evidence he was involved in it - you know that and you know i know. However the 911 event was the cause of his demise because it changed how america looked at saddams behavior.
You do have a point Fishu, the evil bastiges in the WTC were all at fault for every problem in the mideast
BTW has Finland apologized to the Russians yet for making them invade your country 60 years ago?
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Originally posted by fd ski
Just as well documented as america's insistance to stand by and allow it to happend without doing anything.
Well said fd ski ...
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Actually Fdski the blame for hitlers rise to power rests solely on (weak) european shoulders, before and after 1933...
How do you say appeasement in polish?
Italian, gatt?
French, straffo?
And anyhow shouldnt you morally superior euro types be proud of americas detachment from the situation of early ww2? I mean why go to war only to stop a barbaric threatring genocidal dictator... That was a european war and not america's business,, not like today of course where the usa is evil warmonger invading countries and deposing peaceloving regimes left and right... :rolleyes:
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Yep, bloody eyetie here ;)
Actually, you are right as well Grunherz. However, IMHO, all the western powers (US and the Pope Pio XII included) are to be blamed for what happened to Austria, Czech, the church, the ebrews ... all over europe from the early 30's on.
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The only conceivable blame the USA might have is not ratifying joining the Leage of Nations. But even thats not so clear cut as after ww1 and before ww2 the USA was a fairly minor power on the world stage and was isolationist perhaps even pacifist to some extent promoting the big naval disarmament trearies. Certainly it did not have the inflential world role as it did after ww2 and thec way we see the usa today. IIRC we had a smaler military than poland.. ;)
However the rise of hitler was purely an internal european matter dealing with his violations of versailles treaty(yes usa was signatory to it) , human rights, national soverignty etc. Europe failed, the very fact that fdski even mention the need for the USA to intervene is proof that europe entirely failed to confron hitler in any significant way before it was far too late - he on coast of france and bombing london....
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:rofl :aok :rofl
I love this sort of thing. they comission someone to take a poll, and then-
The European Union (news - web sites) scrambled to contain the fallout from a public opinion poll
wouldn't be great if governments polled people to find out what we really thought or wanted instread of just looking for ways to justify what they want to do.
my dad used to say (and sometimes still does)- don't ask questions that you don't want to hear the answers to.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
French, straffo?
it's wrote this way : http://www.geocities.com/~worldwar1/picnic/trueface.html
click on the picture for a nice slideshow.
otherwise it can be also :
France
Total Mobilized 8 410 000
Killed & Died 1 357 800
Wounded 4 266 000
Prisoners & Missing 537 000
Total Casualties 6 160 800
Casualties % of Mobilized 76,3
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Originally posted by Tumor
F*** the "Euros". Who cares what they think anyway? lol
:rolleyes: Tumor u are surely one of the most eloquents Persons at this board. I hope that u dont represent the average american.
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Ok straffo WW1 was terrible. Why did europe go for round two?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ok straffo WW1 was terrible. Why did europe go for round two?
dunno.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You do have a point Fishu, the evil bastiges in the WTC were all at fault for every problem in the mideast
Oh come on, you can't be that short sighted.
Go look the US international politics before WTC... perhaps theres can be the cause, eh?
In any case, why is US war mongering in whole different place, when the people responsible were AND are from saudi-arabia and egypt?
Somehow the terrorist harboring countries have been left alone since Afganistan, which makes me wonder why the WTC every now and then pops up in the discussions, as if it has anything to do with Iraq for example.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Obviously you do. Otherwise you wouldn’t have read this thread, or replied to it.
Well... there's interest, and then there's comic entertainment.
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Originally posted by Duedel
:rolleyes: Tumor u are surely one of the most eloquents Persons at this board. I hope that u dont represent the average american.
:rolleyes: Actually... it does not, unfortunately. I like my country. I'm proud of my country. I'm glad I was not born and raised in another country. I SERVE my country. I'm sick of self-appointed "better than thou" Euro types bashing my country. Get if from every angle, day in and day out. So my reaction is, and will be F***'em, and I hope it spreads.
Oh, and thanks for the compliment (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=eloquent)
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Just take whatever Grunhurz says and imagine me sitting here Nodding my head in silent agreement...
The guy makes sense.
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Originally posted by Fishu
In any case, why is US war mongering in whole different place, when the people responsible were AND are from saudi-arabia and egypt?
Somehow the terrorist harboring countries have been left alone since Afganistan, which makes me wonder why the WTC every now and then pops up in the discussions, as if it has anything to do with Iraq for example.
Most of the terrorist who attacked on 9-11 lived, planned and recieved money from European counties. They may not have been "citizens" but they were treated to all the benifits of your society including welfare. From everything I have read most of theses guys activities were well known to intelligence agancies in these countries but nothing was done to curtail them.
One of the Al-quada wannabe groups that was, and still is in eastern Iraq, has their founder living and planning attacks on americans from Norway. His lawyer claims he has nothing to do with this terrorist group yet it is pretty well documented that he in fact does.
They may not technicaly be citizens of Europe, but they sure act like it. Keep that in mind when you are deciding for the USA what targets we should fight in the war on terrorism. Face it Fishu your words speak volumes no matter how you cloak it.
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Oh, and thanks for the compliment (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=eloquent) [/B]
:D
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Most of the terrorist who attacked on 9-11 lived, planned and recieved money from European counties. They may not have been "citizens" but they were treated to all the benifits of your society including welfare.
to be fair you could say the same thing about us. they recieved funds and help from americans too.
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Krusher,
Hey.. I have nothing against limiting the flow of "refugees" :D
I'd be only happy if they'd pass a law which would make it tougher for the "refugees" to get in here and easier to send them back if they're not behaving.
In fact the only time someone unknown to me attacked me in public, was some foreigner, presumably a refugee.
Plus I've heard of stories from janitors how some of the families lives in the city apartments...
Makes me wonder why did they come over here as a refugees, if they cannot ¤/%#/% appreciate and respect the 'hospitality'.
This refugee thing is some wierd popular thing nowadays, which it wasnt just a couple decades ago.
In any case, FBI or CIA, whichever, did know about the 911 attackers, but neither did anything... so can't fault only the europeans for not doing something for it.
besides, if it'd been me running the agencies, any foreign refugee with suspected criminal activity in any manner, would go through a magnification glass.
The 911 attack wasn't a surprise for me, however the scale of it was... it wasn't hard to know there was going to be an attack sometime within few years, nor that there was insufficient actions made to prevent those.
(and why wasnt it a surprise that an attack would happen? simply by looking at the US international politics)
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Originally posted by fd ski
Just as well documented as america's insistance to stand by and allow it to happend without doing anything.
You are wrong sir, Standard Oil invested millions into IG Farben.
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Originally posted by Fishu
In any case, FBI or CIA, whichever, did know about the 911 attackers, but neither did anything... so can't fault only the europeans for not doing something for it.
I wasnt really faulting the europeans, I was only trying to point out that when you make a statement like this
"Somehow the terrorist harboring countries have been left alone since Afganistan, which makes me wonder why the WTC every now and then pops up in the discussions"
be sure you know where they (the terrorist) are really living.
The war on terrorism is not going to be confined to iraq. It is a world wide problem and much of the world is trying to do something about it. The argument that the US should only attack the countries we know harbored 9-11 attackers is short sighted and in my opinion lacks a long term vision. Terrorism is not static, it is dynamic and it must be fought on many fronts. Iraq and afganistan are part of that fight.
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The argument that the US should only attack the countries we know harbored 9-11 attackers is short sighted and in my opinion lacks a long term vision.
so maybe we should clarify the issue by listing the countries that haven't/aren't suporting terrorists. would we be on that list?
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
so maybe we should clarify the issue by listing the countries that haven't/aren't suporting terrorists. would we be on that list?
hmmm taking one line out of context and ignoring the previous post and its reply.
whatever
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Some of you had better pray we do not find WMD's in Iraq( which I think we will).
If we do, the American support for Bush will swell and we'll move on thru Syria, N.Korea and the rest who promote terror.
I'm sure I'll read another 4 years of socialist spew as well.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Oh come on, you can't be that short sighted.
Go look the US international politics before WTC... perhaps theres can be the cause, eh?
In any case, why is US war mongering in whole different place, when the people responsible were AND are from saudi-arabia and egypt?
Somehow the terrorist harboring countries have been left alone since Afganistan, which makes me wonder why the WTC every now and then pops up in the discussions, as if it has anything to do with Iraq for example.
911 has everything to do with Iraq invasion - if no 911 Saddam would still be in power. 911 simply changed at how the USA looked at the possibility of mass terror attacks and what our response should be. 911 made it impossible to ignore him and is outrageous behavior. Plus iraq invasion is a big picture idea to reshjape the region wholesale - so I understand why a "small" politically fearful unimaginiative conservative european leadrship cadre is unable or unwilling to grasp the concept.
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GRUNHERZ: 911 has everything to do with Iraq invasion - if no 911 Saddam would still be in power.
The PNAC was created before 911. The neo-cons wished for "another Pearl Harbor like event" but stated that we shoudl proceed without it.
In fact, it would have been easier to make a decision to annex Iraq without 911.
1. We would not have had as huge material damage to our economy caused by 911.
2. We would not have felt the need to dedicate as much resources towards protection from actual terrorism.
3. We would have less need of a socialist secular regime hostile to radical islam fundamentalism in the Middle East.
Plus iraq invasion is a big picture idea to reshape the region wholesale - so I understand why a "small" politically fearful unimaginiative conservative european leadrship cadre is unable or unwilling to grasp the concept.
Oh, they've grasped the concept very well. It's your who cannot grasp another vital concept - that they may know what's going on and still disagree with what US government is doing.
miko
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Ahh yes PNAC, the great evil booggeyman. I hear they really caused the 911 attacks.
I love your word use miko, but annex is just too weak - perhaps anschluss woud suit you better?
The euros dont understand, they may be able to follow our actions but they dont understand. France for one is eager to get an Iraqi governemt right now, no matter what it is just so they can come in an corrupt it for thaeir oli companies - they arent intrwsted in making a democratic long term iraq.
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GRUNHERZ: I hear they really caused the 911 attacks.
In view of their need for such an event, it was not in their interest to stop an attack if they learned about it. You should read their teacher Leo Strauss one day. Keeping peons unaware about the plans of the enlightened elite and sacrificing a few for the benefit of many.
I love your word use miko, but annex is just too weak - perhaps anschluss woud suit you better?
Whatever. Took posession. That's a quite neutral and descriptive term.
The euros dont understand, they may be able to follow our actions but they dont understand.
Their brain structure is genetically different? Too low intelligence in general? Unfamilarity with Leo Strauss's teachings?
I would understand if we promoted the british common-law system in Iraq rather than their favorite Napoleonic system of laws, but we are doing the opposite.
they arent intrwsted in making a democratic long term iraq.
What makes you think US is or ever has been interested in making democratic anything in the Middle East?
French probably remember that US and UK replaced democratic government in Iran with a shah. US and UK and France installed monarchies in the provinces of the Ottoman Empire, not democracies. Have we been promoting democracy in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Did US help democratic forces in Afghanistan or did it help the Taliban?
Why would anyone believe what US government says when the record is clear on what it does?
miko
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Europes support of the final solution is well documented.
Well, Isreal is doing pretty good in the making of their own final solution - only that they're on the other side of the fence this time...
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Kirin: Well, Isreal is doing pretty good in the making of their own final solution - only that they're on the other side of the fence this time...
To be honest, they are much closer to the implementation originally envisioned in Mein Kamph rather than to what has happened.
Grab the land, throw out most of the indigenous population, keep the rest isolated and at low level of economic development/education and use for manual labor.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
Whatever. Took posession. That's a quite neutral and descriptive term.
But it looks like they are going to fail. I guess they didn't count on so much internal pressure to get out of Iraq ASAP.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
911 has everything to do with Iraq invasion - if no 911 Saddam would still be in power. 911 simply changed at how the USA looked at the possibility of mass terror attacks and what our response should be. 911 made it impossible to ignore him and is outrageous behavior. Plus iraq invasion is a big picture idea to reshjape the region wholesale - so I understand why a "small" politically fearful unimaginiative conservative european leadrship cadre is unable or unwilling to grasp the concept.
Try make up your mind will you... Iraq war has said to been about WMD, now you're mixing it up with the 911.
Saddam hardly was a threat to something else than his own people - he wasnt a dumbarse even if a dictator, he liked living royally and he had even plans for his heirs.
He knew exactly well what would've compromised his luxury status and wasnt either regarded as a zealous muslim, on the opposite.
Too bad for him, he made a miscalculation by invading Kuwait.
I suppose the most WMD which could be found from Iraq, would be the ones which were approved by US and maybe even partly supplied by US.
Lets not forget how Saddam used WMD against Iranians, who took it to UN, where USA vetoed it to save trouble from their dear friend Saddam.
Anyway, sure there was some smaller camps owned by organizations regarded as terrorists, but I'm quite sure you'd find those from all around middle east, so couple small camps are a moot point when the neightboring countries has whole armies.
Amazing what all crap told by the politicians you believe, a true patriot!
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You really are dense fishu...
If no 911 there would not be as much concern about saddam and his misbehavior. Why? Beacuse 911 showed us that these bad guys who hate the usa were willing to go increbile lengths to kill us at home thinking they could get away with it with no reprisal. We wouldnt take the risk with saddam making the same miscalculation as he has been prone to making bad decisions concering the usa in the past... If you dont understand that then its hopless.
BTW if you are so stuck on that WMD thing and how the USA gave him wmd when he was our ally then juist take it that were now correcting our mistake and removing his wmd. Of course your stance is that iraq has no wmd, so why are you even mentioning it.
Miko... Now you are going off the deep end.
I suppose you think roosevelt knew of pearl harbor attack but let it happend so we could get in the war and he could get his way against the isolationsts. Thank god he was a military naval genious and he had the carriers away from port - so only the outdated battleships wouyld be wiped put leaving us the modern air arm to win the war...
Whats next from you, was it a criuse missle in pentagon?
Yiou know well enough that cultural mindsets frame perception, and that europes naive fantasy land image of itself made possible by the US guarding it like a child from the real world of cold war is what leads to all these untrue idiotic pacifist fantasies out of that child continent. Really europe is like that wierd litte freckled lesbian hippe college chick with curly hair and a "NO WAR" sign on her backpack... Totally clueless and lost in a protected safe environment - protected by her parents just as the USA protected its child in the form of postwar europe.
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GRUNHERZ: Miko... Now you are going off the deep end.
I suppose you think roosevelt knew of pearl harbor attack but let it happend so we could get in the war and he could get his way against the isolationsts.
Why don't you stick to what I've actually said, rather than idiotic crap that you suppose I should be thinking?
I understand it is much easier to argue with stuff of your own manufacture that you attribute to your opponents than it is to analyse the actual arguments and views, but please make an effort.
We all know what "attacking the straw man" means by now.
You know well enough that cultural mindsets frame perception, and that europes naive fantasy land image of itself made possible by the US guarding it like a child from the real world of cold war
I do know that europeans lived through many wars while in US only southerners lived through one. I bet living through wars alters cultural mindset more than reading about it in the newspapers. So it's americans who would more likely to be "clueless and lost in a protected safe environment".
You must also remember that "cold war" is just a term for the period that was not actually a war. US did not really fight it. It was ready to fight next to it's european allies. It was spending wealth on armaments - maybe even a significant fraction of the wealth US extracted from Europe through persistent trade imbalances.
It certainly did not fight in Vietnam for Europe's benefit.
miko
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Originally posted by Rude
Some of you had better pray we do not find WMD's in Iraq( which I think we will).
If we do, the American support for Bush will swell and we'll move on thru Syria, N.Korea and the rest who promote terror.
I'm sure I'll read another 4 years of socialist spew as well.
Admit it! You love the sprew!! You thrive on Sprew... just like the other conservative bananas on this board.
And it's not about WMD in Iraq... get with the program.. Georgie Dubya Bushbanana already said it's about "regime" change.
Didn't you get the neo-nazi-conservative memo?
By the way... the democratic intel memo... was a plant... libral media up to their usual dirty tricks.
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Bla bla bla....aren't you lot tired of this same constant merry go-round of petty bickering?
Tronsky
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Grunherz,
So instead you thuoght it was better to get rid of this guy who was hardly sponsoring terrorists and in exchange piss off more of these probable terrorists, so it would be guaranteed they will be planning on to blow themselves at US targets.
Brilliant thinking!
Only thing which might correct it now, is that US really does as they boasted - bring this hyped freedom to Iraq and prove themselves to other middle east nations.
This will take a looong time.. I bet not many were thinking about that when they were so pro-war and telling how US is going to free Iraq and bring freedom etc. etc.
Its not going to take a year or two.. or even five..
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Originally posted by Fishu
Grunherz,
So instead you thuoght it was better to get rid of this guy who was hardly sponsoring terrorists and in exchange piss off more of these probable terrorists, so it would be guaranteed they will be planning on to blow themselves at US targets.
Brilliant thinking!
Only thing which might correct it now, is that US really does as they boasted - bring this hyped freedom to Iraq and prove themselves to other middle east nations.
This will take a looong time.. I bet not many were thinking about that when they were so pro-war and telling how US is going to free Iraq and bring freedom etc. etc.
Its not going to take a year or two.. or even five..
Well it seems that the "terrorists" attacked the US on our soil beore we went into Iraq "again".. As for sponsoring terrorism, saddam has been doing that since he has been in power--
And why would Iraq be any different from the US in that its people dont ALL agree on the same thing....The same could be said for Europe or south america or china----Everyone in this world we live in (temporarily) has bias and racsism in them...And if you say you dont, you lie.
Every Country in this world has bias and racsism (mine included)and again if you say it doesnt, you lie....
Europe and their "polls" are no different than any other country's "polls", they can be manipulated to suit the pollsters needs, just by going to a certain geographic area and taking them. Whos to say that they didnt "poll" 15,000 people and throw out the half they didnt want to hear?
Get a grip people, the day you allow a poll to be your "opinion" is the day you dont have one.
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Originally posted by miko2d
GRUNHERZ: Miko... Now you are going off the deep end.
I suppose you think roosevelt knew of pearl harbor attack but let it happend so we could get in the war and he could get his way against the isolationsts.
Why don't you stick to what I've actually said, rather than idiotic crap that you suppose I should be thinking?
I understand it is much easier to argue with stuff of your own manufacture that you attribute to your opponents than it is to analyse the actual arguments and views, but please make an effort.
We all know what "attacking the straw man" means by now.
You know well enough that cultural mindsets frame perception, and that europes naive fantasy land image of itself made possible by the US guarding it like a child from the real world of cold war
I do know that europeans lived through many wars while in US only southerners lived through one. I bet living through wars alters cultural mindset more than reading about it in the newspapers. So it's americans who would more likely to be "clueless and lost in a protected safe environment".
You must also remember that "cold war" is just a term for the period that was not actually a war. US did not really fight it. It was ready to fight next to it's european allies. It was spending wealth on armaments - maybe even a significant fraction of the wealth US extracted from Europe through persistent trade imbalances.
It certainly did not fight in Vietnam for Europe's benefit.
miko
You said exatly that miko - that PNAC it it maybe knew of 911 wouldnt tell everyone. Just like pearl harbor consiracy theories.
As for Europe when did they learn that war was really bad? Was it after Napoleon? After the Franco/Prussian War? After WW1? After ww2? After the numerous post ww2 european colonial wars? After arming regimes across the world, even with nuclear weapons technology? They obviously havent learned watermelon about war.
The only thing they know about war is that the USA was there to protect them from you and hordes of T72s. T72s build and driven by yet another group of europeans who havent learned watermelon about the idea that war is bad because they they thir mightiest to start many other wars and invasion and still do quite recently.
And for the rest about the cold war being fake thats just more of your bizzare obseesion about fake money and trade imbalances....
Nice to see how you ignore the guilt of communism in threating the western world - still a party man at heart I see...
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Drone,
It just gets serious when some country decides to go war mongering and slanders the other countries for not joining their war mongering.
President Bush actually did say a very very bad remark on french in one of his speeches, which hardly any other president would make. (prime ministers are an exception though... Berlusconi)
Which I think was unheard level of arrogance.
It is frenchies own matter whether they join the wars or not and US does not have one word on it as long as there are others who sides with french decision.
US tried to order other countries to join its crusade, as if they'd own the countries and then these silly people renamed french fries to freedom fries (how totally tubular silly is that?) for not joining the wars.
Oh the irony when you think about it; they renamed it as a freedom fries, while lobbying for war and neglecting other countries freedom to decide what they prefer to do!!
So, sure, every country does have their bias and racism, but US really does top it out with bias.
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So the USA is also world leader bad #1 rogue nation in bias too?
Well at least we know which region leads the world in BS... :lol
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You said exatly that miko - that PNAC it it maybe knew of 911 wouldnt tell everyone. Just like pearl harbor consiracy theories.
As for Europe when did they learn that war was really bad? Was it after Napoleon? After the Franco/Prussian War? After WW1? After ww2? After the numerous post ww2 european colonial wars? After arming regimes across the world, even with nuclear weapons technology? They obviously havent learned watermelon about war.
The only thing they know about war is that the USA was there to protect them from you and hordes of T72s. T72s build and driven by yet another group of europeans who havent learned watermelon about the idea that war is bad because they they thir mightiest to start many other wars and invasion and still do quite recently.
And for the rest about the cold war being fake thats just more of your bizzare obseesion about fake money and trade imbalances....
Nice to see how you ignore the guilt of communism in threating the western world - still a party man at heart I see...
Because of your birthplace aren't you affraid of atavism ?
:p
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I might genocidally slaughter you all, but then again I might not... :aok
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So the USA is also world leader bad #1 rogue nation in bias too?
Well at least we know which region leads the world in BS... :lol
Yeah, US takes the lead spot in that as well.
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So has Finland apologized to Russia yet?
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Europeans are HEAVILY biased towards PLO. That poll IS representing the huge majority of the Europe. The reason can be found in the news and in our government, that are for reasons unknown almost 100% against Israelis. It all starts from the first grade, where the cute teacher tells how the Israelis are killing kids just like you, for fun. There would be huge celebrations if somehow Palestinians obtained nuke and made Israel to glass parking lot. Of course, then the biggest threat to world peace (acceptance of concept "world peace" shows, how stupid we are) would be gone and we could fully concentrate on annihilation of USA. Believe me, lots of us would like to see you guys ****ed up beyond recognition. And the majority of us should i add (me not included).
Forgive us, we are clueless, including me. But atleast i know that 99% of middle east coverage from the news is utter bull**** and has no informative value at all. Lots of folks dont and i bet that Fishu is one of those, who look at the national broadcasts about "Israeli shoots children" like its the objective viewpoint of the situation. Every time that some raghead terrorist blows up another school bus, its "Bomb kills 20 in Israel, Israelis say they will retaliate and destroy innocent palestinian kids". I dont remember ever hearing word "terrorist" from our media, when it comes to suicide bombings in Israel, they just like to use sterile word "bomb". But i have heard it many times when the retaliation happens...
This is atleast how its in Finland and Europe is quite homogenic when it comes to these issues.
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Originally posted by Tuomio
Europeans are HEAVILY biased towards PLO. That poll IS representing the huge majority of the Europe. The reason can be found in the news and in our government, that are for reasons unknown almost 100% against Israelis. It all starts from the first grade, where the cute teacher tells how the Israelis are killing kids just like you, for fun. There would be huge celebrations if somehow Palestinians obtained nuke and made Israel to glass parking lot. Of course, then the biggest threat to world peace (acceptance of concept "world peace" shows, how stupid we are) would be gone and we could fully concentrate on annihilation of USA. Believe me, lots of us would like to see you guys ****ed up beyond recognition. And the majority of us should i add (me not included).
Forgive us, we are clueless, including me. But atleast i know that 99% of middle east coverage from the news is utter bull**** and has no informative value at all. Lots of folks dont and i bet that Fishu is one of those, who look at the national broadcasts about "Israeli shoots children" like its the objective viewpoint of the situation. Every time that some raghead terrorist blows up another school bus, its "Bomb kills 20 in Israel, Israelis say they will retaliate and destroy innocent palestinian kids". I dont remember ever hearing word "terrorist" from our media, when it comes to suicide bombings in Israel, they just like to use sterile word "bomb". But i have heard it many times when the retaliation happens...
This is atleast how its in Finland and Europe is quite homogenic when it comes to these issues.
These are some of the most beutiful and honest and insightful words out of Europe spoken since Winston Churchill!!!! :) Thank you Tuomio and just by these words and your honesty you show there is hope for europe and that some over there are able to think independantly.
Big to you, a thousand big from America!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So has Finland apologized to Russia yet?
Sure, by sending hundreds of train cars filled with goods to russia.
Besides why do you insist on asking that? I don't see your point.
Tuomio,
I don't give a crap for news which tells those things.
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there is hope for europe and that some over there are able to think independantly.
Grun, as an European, (leavin out the terms of the debate) I don't know if smile or cry , if take it as an insult or a as joke,reading such statements.
Actually I think this is an insult to your intelligence writing in such a tone.
You can do better;) mate, just try to be less biased against EU.
Friendly
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Originally posted by fd ski
Just as well documented as america's insistance to stand by and allow it to happend without doing anything.
Thanks to politicians like Joe Kennedy...
I mean really fdumb-ski, what *were* we to do in the late 30's? We still had WW1 equipment in our inventory!
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miko: In view of their need for such an event, it was not in their interest to stop an attack if they learned about it.
GRUNHERZ: GRUNHERZ: Miko... Now you are going off the deep end.
I suppose you think roosevelt knew of pearl harbor attack but let it happend so we could get in the war and he could get his way against the isolationsts.
miko: Why don't you stick to what I've actually said, rather than idiotic crap that you suppose I should be thinking?
GRUNHERZ: You said exatly that miko - that PNAC it it maybe knew of 911 wouldnt tell everyone.
You are lying, GRUNHERZ, as you often do when you say a stupid thing. You are attributing to me things that I clearly not said as anyone with a scrolbar can verify.
You seem to be very incoherent. I denied saying that Rusevelt knew about Pearl Harbor and you counter it by allegation that I did say that "PNAC maybe knew about 911". Pearl Harbor - 911 - those are different events, remember?
Besides, I never said that "PNAC it it maybe knew of 911 wouldnt tell everyone", whatever this ungrammatical sentense means.
I have no idea what they knew and even less what they would have done.
What I said, was "it was not in their interest to stop an attack if they learned about it" - because the success of their doctrine was based on such an event.
That does not mean they would not tell anyone. People with concience are known to act against their interests. But the fact that their agenda was advanced by such an event - as they openly admitted before the event - is significant.
And for the rest about the cold war being fake thats just more of your bizzare obseesion about fake money and trade imbalances.
You are ranting - and lying as usuall.
I never said "cold war" was fake. I said that "cold war" was not a war - which it was not. It was an armed standoff.
In case you forgot, a "war" is when the armed forces of two countries fight each other. There was no fighting between Soviet and European/American armed forces during the period labeled as "cold war" but there was a lot of trade going on. there were embassies, tourists, etc.
In fact the USA sales of grain, food and materials to the Soviet Union went a long way towards preserving and fortifying the communist regime. Europeans traded with USSR even more that USA did. Some war...
USA was there to protect them from you and hordes of T72s
Leaving aside the fact that Soviet forces were too incompetent to wage a war on a large scale (my personal opinion as an insider), the idea of US "protection" consisted of blowing dozens of nuclear charges all over Europe to slow down the soviet advance, then nuclear bombing the soviet troops in Europe and then nuking the Soviet Union itself which is right next to Europe.
Considering that socialism in Soviet Union was on the decline while Europeans seem to actually want socialism, many would probably find the takeover by soviets preferable to being nuked and radioactively dusted.
Soviet invasion, if it was ever contemplated, was deterred by mutually assured nuclear destruction. The nuclear arsenal posessed by UK and France was totally sufficient for that. If USA was not there, euros could have bought more nukes for themselves - and alowed Germany to have them - rather than paying for the US nukes.
Nice to see how you ignore the guilt of communism in threating the western world - still a party man at heart I see...
This just does not make any sense or connection to anything said here, so I will not even respond to it.
Anyway, I am glad that now that the communism threat is gone, the US can finally dismantle its military, drastically cut its defence budget and remove its troops from overseas. Oh, wait...
miko
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the world is better off without hitler and it is better off without the sadman.... It will be better off without any of a number of major and minor despots.. I certainly hope that pictures of terrorists are getting "X's" put through them right now in "the big book of world terrorists" somewhere.
as for WWII... we had found that the barbaric and unwashed euros tended to kill each other over just about any pecieved slight and that they all fought dirty in dirty little wars... we just stayed out of it till it spilled over onto us... we even had to learn to fight as dirty as the euros in some cases.
lazs
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Originally posted by Fishu
US tried to order other countries to join its crusade, as if they'd own the countries and then these silly people renamed french fries to freedom fries (how totally tubular silly is that?) for not joining the wars.
Oh the irony when you think about it; they renamed it as a freedom fries, while lobbying for war and neglecting other countries freedom to decide what they prefer to do!!
So, sure, every country does have their bias and racism, but US really does top it out with bias.
Where did the U.S. try to "order"?
Isn't if totally tubular silly your offended over the name of fried potatoes :rolleyes:
France (or you) aren't biased? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
But then... WHO CARES WHAT YA THINK hahahahahaah:aok
Damn it's tough being the big guy on the block.:D
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Admit it! You love the sprew!! You thrive on Sprew... just like the other conservative bananas on this board.
And it's not about WMD in Iraq... get with the program.. Georgie Dubya Bushbanana already said it's about "regime" change.
Didn't you get the neo-nazi-conservative memo?
By the way... the democratic intel memo... was a plant... libral media up to their usual dirty tricks.
Ahhh....the spew is increasing.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Grunherz,
So instead you thuoght it was better to get rid of this guy who was hardly sponsoring terrorists and in exchange piss off more of these probable terrorists, so it would be guaranteed they will be planning on to blow themselves at US targets.
Brilliant thinking!
Only thing which might correct it now, is that US really does as they boasted - bring this hyped freedom to Iraq and prove themselves to other middle east nations.
This will take a looong time.. I bet not many were thinking about that when they were so pro-war and telling how US is going to free Iraq and bring freedom etc. etc.
Its not going to take a year or two.. or even five..
If you were honest, you would acknowledge the fact that Bush and team sold this war as difficult, long and hard and that it would take years to bring Democracy to bear in the Middle East.
Conveniently forgotten by you.
The US will do what we feel is necessary to protect ourselves from a very real threat....bottom line, you are assigned to sit and watch regardless of your fodder offered up on this board...so take your rightful place and keep on hoping the US will fail and that the Middle East will remain a hot bed of despair and abuse.
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Tumor,
Can be said Bush and seemingly good part of US were expecting to be capable of ordering germans and french to a war, when looks at the speeches and slandering, which happened after it became apparent germans and frenchies were against the Iraq war.
If there wouldn't been expectations that frenchies and germans would comply with Bush's war plans, then there wouldn't been all this slandering and renaming of french fries... along with Bush literally calling frenchies "silly".
So it can be said that many were expecting frenchies & germans to go on the crusade when Bush says "lets go to fight in Iraq!"
But then... WHO CARES WHAT YA THINK hahahahahaah
Are you sure?
Have you ever thought how the economy works?
Rude,
Like I said, it was about the people who were highly pro-war and spouting the freedom to iraq propaganda, who then have began to cry about the expenses and loss of life in Iraq.
Not about Bush, unless hes the head of borgs and can be referred as "many".
There is seemingly increasing amount of people getting worried about the expenses and losses in Iraq, which is bad, especially with the people who were first ultimately pro-war.
and those are the kind of people which angers me, short sighted people in lack of common sense.
Lazs2,
They were simply doing pre-emptive defensing in europe.
However after couple bigger wars, people in europe has began to realise there might be better ways to be pre-emptive than attacking the others as the first one. :p
...besides it originally spilled on US from Asia, where they were at war already before the europeans ;)
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Originally posted by Fishu
Grunherz,
So instead you thuoght it was better to get rid of this guy who was hardly sponsoring terrorists and in exchange piss off more of these probable terrorists, so it would be guaranteed they will be planning on to blow themselves at US targets.
Brilliant thinking!
Its funny how the removal of the man who is responsible for the murder of more Muslims than any other person alive, can be such a cause to rally behind. Sounds like they dont care about the Iraqi people as much as they claim they do.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Sure, by sending hundreds of train cars filled with goods to russia.
Besides why do you insist on asking that? I don't see your point.
Tuomio,
I don't give a crap for news which tells those things.
Well then how have you arrived at the truth while the rest of us wallow in ignorance?
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I guess he has access to the news sources that tell truth rather than "those things".
Plenty of those around.
miko
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Is it possible to separate an opinion on Isreals policy re Palestine from the moral judgement of ones prejudice or lack of the same toward those of the Jewish faith.
If not then I say shame on those who use racial/religious discrimination in such a way.
It is no more valid than accusing those who do not favour Bushes policies as being anti-american, or those who do not favour Nelson Mandela as being anti-black.
FWIW if the Tories win the next UK election we will have a Jewish prime minister.
Neither would he be the first of that religion to hold such office in the UK.
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I base my opinion on several sources, was it news, documentaries, published documents... whatever there is that I come across!
Obviously some are sticking to like two different news sources; news paper and some news station, since it seems to be so hard for them to think of any other ways to know whats going on in the world.
Why do you guys bother asking stupid things?
Lack of logic?
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Originally posted by Tuomio
Europeans are HEAVILY biased towards PLO. That poll IS representing the huge majority of the Europe. The reason can be found in the news and in our government, that are for reasons unknown almost 100% against Israelis. It all starts from the first grade, where the cute teacher tells how the Israelis are killing kids just like you, for fun. There would be huge celebrations if somehow Palestinians obtained nuke and made Israel to glass parking lot. Of course, then the biggest threat to world peace (acceptance of concept "world peace" shows, how stupid we are) would be gone and we could fully concentrate on annihilation of USA. Believe me, lots of us would like to see you guys ****ed up beyond recognition. And the majority of us should i add (me not included).
Forgive us, we are clueless, including me. But atleast i know that 99% of middle east coverage from the news is utter bull**** and has no informative value at all. Lots of folks dont and i bet that Fishu is one of those, who look at the national broadcasts about "Israeli shoots children" like its the objective viewpoint of the situation. Every time that some raghead terrorist blows up another school bus, its "Bomb kills 20 in Israel, Israelis say they will retaliate and destroy innocent palestinian kids". I dont remember ever hearing word "terrorist" from our media, when it comes to suicide bombings in Israel, they just like to use sterile word "bomb". But i have heard it many times when the retaliation happens...
This is atleast how its in Finland and Europe is quite homogenic when it comes to these issues.
Irony is strong with this one :rofl
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Originally posted by Fishu
Are you sure?
Have you ever thought how the economy works?
Absolutely positive.