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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: brady on November 03, 2003, 08:11:14 PM

Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: brady on November 03, 2003, 08:11:14 PM
???




(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/98294/0.jpg)
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: bigred on November 03, 2003, 08:41:40 PM
maginot line???
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: Corsair on November 03, 2003, 08:52:24 PM
'Tis the Maginot line.

I don't know the specific gun, though.
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: frank3 on November 04, 2003, 08:53:32 AM
wow! nicely defended!:eek:
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: straffo on November 04, 2003, 09:12:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by frank3
wow! nicely defended!:eek:


but useless ...
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: Pongo on November 04, 2003, 10:49:47 AM
Would have been very usefull..if the French or British armys were attacking. Not much use against the German General staff though.
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: Nod on November 04, 2003, 10:51:52 AM
yah, the germans basically just drove around it.

my guess is maginot line too......
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: john9001 on November 04, 2003, 11:48:42 AM
it was not "useless",the germans never attacked it, the problem with the Maginot line is that it did not extend all the way to the coast, the French foolishly thought the ardenn forrest and Belgian/Holland could defend the northern French border.
Had the Maginot line gone all the way to the coast , the invasion of France might have had a different ending.
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: Soulyss on November 04, 2003, 01:18:32 PM
But the Germans did attack the Maginot Line as part of the invasion of France.  This task was given to Army Group C under Colonel General Von Leeb.  This was done after the drive to the sea and the British evacuation at Dunkirk.  The German Army penetrated the Maginot Line on June 14th, the same day as german troops entered Paris.  

This all according to Mellenthin in "Panzer Battles"
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: scJazz on November 04, 2003, 01:31:54 PM
Maginot Line... and yes it was worthless.

The German Blitzkrieg rather than sitzkrieg combat theory pretty much wiped out the whole idea of static defense emplacements. They just bypassed the whole bloody thing then came back and shattered what was left.

Then the stupid buggers went and built up the Coastal Defenses to stop Operation Overlord. Guess there is no underestimating the power of human stupidity.
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: brady on November 04, 2003, 09:11:50 PM
maginot line, it is:)
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: NoBaddy on November 04, 2003, 10:50:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by brady
maginot line, it is:)



DAMN!!! I thought it was a German mushroom farm!!!
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on November 05, 2003, 01:04:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
it was not "useless",the germans never attacked it, the problem with the Maginot line is that it did not extend all the way to the coast, the French foolishly thought the ardenn forrest and Belgian/Holland could defend the northern French border.
Had the Maginot line gone all the way to the coast , the invasion of France might have had a different ending.


The Germans attacked the Maginot line by the rear (French Side). Even by the "unprotected side", some of the strongholds couldn't be taken. it's Petain that had to order the defending soldiers to surrender.

To this day, the Maginot line still has some active sections. The germans had the Sigfrid line or something like that matching ours, but it was actually a decoy. "Nothing" was in it.
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: moot on November 05, 2003, 01:58:39 AM
what's a vent doing exposed like that?
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: GRUNHERZ on November 05, 2003, 02:17:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by moot
what's a vent doing exposed like that?


Thats where our action hero drops in the grenades - duh...
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: Cerceuilvolant on November 05, 2003, 03:31:34 AM
This is not the Maginot Line.

This picture is showing turrets from the Metz fortress, built by the Germans in the occupied Lorraine between 1871 and 1918. These are 105 mm guns, that were not in use in THE Maginot Line.

The fortress was modernized and refitted to the french standards between the wars.

The french propaganda used a lot the Metz fortress with displays for the international press. The Maginot Line was top secret during the Phoney War, and it was forbidden to publish pics of it. That's why they just allowed the journalists to take pics of the less well designed Metz fortress.

In the Maginot Line, such a concentration of turrets on a so tiny area, these external barrels easily taken out and non-retractable turrets would be an heresy.

ALL the turrets in the Maginot Line were looking like this:

(http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/images2/1930.jpg)
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: brady on November 05, 2003, 07:17:40 PM
"Four years after being by-passed by the German Blitzkrieg, the guns
of the Maginot line are finally used against the Wehrmacht. American
artillerymen fired 600 rounds of German-made munitions from the
French guns at the retreating Germans on September 22, 1944
within hours of their capture. Photo dated September 28, 1944."


       This is the original Photo Caption from my Pic source.
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on November 05, 2003, 09:54:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thats where our action hero drops in the grenades - duh...


BS Grun, there's a cover on the vent!:lol
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: Cerceuilvolant on November 05, 2003, 10:32:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by brady
"Four years after being by-passed by the German Blitzkrieg, the guns
of the Maginot line are finally used against the Wehrmacht. American
artillerymen fired 600 rounds of German-made munitions from the
French guns at the retreating Germans on September 22, 1944
within hours of their capture. Photo dated September 28, 1944."


       This is the original Photo Caption from my Pic source.


Books are sometimes wrong... A lot has to be done to get rid of the historical studies (especially inherited from Liddle Hart) more keen on using sources manipulated by the propaganda than true historical materials.

The Metz fortress was not a part of the Maginot Line. It belonged to the camp retranché de Metz . Metz is 60 km BEHIND the Maginot Line, not integrated to it.
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: brady on November 05, 2003, 11:30:17 PM
Yes they are, this is true, I know Metz is nowhear near the Magino line, howeaver I cant presently refute the image source and the photo caption, Iknow some of the magino line works were built late and to a lesser and differing standard than the norm so I cant say for shure that this photo is not indead corect, it is from what has howeaver proven to be a very good source for some of my Name This pick's, if you can name a source that disproves the original source I will gladely change the answer.
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: straffo on November 06, 2003, 01:42:46 AM
Perhaps you will find more data here :
http://braunn.chez.tiscali.fr/these.htm

http://users.swing.be/sw063818/fortif/index.htm


http://www.pinetreeline.org/metz/otherm4/otherm4-4.html

http://users.swing.be/sw063818/fortif/liens.htm
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: Cerceuilvolant on November 06, 2003, 04:56:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by brady
Yes they are, this is true, I know Metz is nowhear near the Magino line, howeaver I cant presently refute the image source and the photo caption, Iknow some of the magino line works were built late and to a lesser and differing standard than the norm so I cant say for shure that this photo is not indead corect, it is from what has howeaver proven to be a very good source for some of my Name This pick's, if you can name a source that disproves the original source I will gladely change the answer.


Sure:

Hommes et ouvrages de la Ligne Maginot  Tomes I & II, by Jean-Yves Mary & Alain Honaedel, Histoire & Collection, 2000, THE reference on the Maginot Line, 500 pages of goodness, result of 30 years of studies.

Also, the link provided by Straffo, prooves it:
(http://braunn.chez.tiscali.fr/a10.jpg) , from the Les deux ceintures de fortifications de la ville de Metz. (1867-1916)
(the two fortification belts of the city of Metz, 1867-1916). So these fortresses were build by the Germans during the occupation of the Alsace-Lorraine between 1871 and 1918. The first Maginot Line fortresses were built in 1930.
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on November 06, 2003, 09:36:34 AM
Brady are you using a book or a website for your pictures? I noticed that most of your pictures were coming from a website (I will/did not reveal the addy so other can keep the picture guessing game).
Maybe the website is the copy of "a book".
Title: Name This...(671)
Post by: brady on November 06, 2003, 08:14:30 PM
Metz fortress,it is:)


      OK, After seeing the inrefutable refrences above and unpacking my book on Metz:) I can say that original source was in error, ty for pointing this out and for the great links above:)