Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 1K0N on November 05, 2003, 09:41:28 AM
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I never flew the 30mm yak before...I always looked at the ammo load and moved on... Flew it for the first time last night... wow the bang for the buck is outstanding! One 30mm round easily removes the entire tail section of most axis planes..
Its a keeper!!
1K0N
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37mm even
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Typo! I stand corrected! was distracted!
IKON
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Its a fun ride, one of my favorites. One ping kills for the most part. Not too bad on GVs either
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A question in regards to the NS-37 on the Yak9T, how effective do people find it against armour? I mean, looking at the stats on that gun, it was a very impressive piece of work with hispano-ish muzzle velocity in a 37mm shell. ScJazz's tests showed it caused massive damage (more than an Ostwind shell or a 40mm Vickers) against buildings. Against tanks though I have real problems getting more than a wound, often disabling the Panzer but not actually killing it. Was it a 37mm HE vs. a 37mm AP? I would have thought the mass and velocity would have made it more deadly to armour than what my experience has tended to be in AH (and I have gotten point blank to shoot with it).
Back on topic though, the Yak9T is under-rated as people think the ballistics are crappy but they aren't. The low rate of fire is difficult and the handling of the 9T seems a little less stable than it's 9U counterpart (probably having that huge gun up front didn't help the balance). Not a bad aircraft but not very common.
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The Russians put a few of them in the Il2's wings.
They considered them good enough to destroy tigers.
They did not put them in production Il2 though :(
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Il2 was and is one of my favorite tank hunters 2 bombs on wings for instant drop, 4 bombs inside bombbay and 4 rockets for nasty kills!:aok
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Don't forget the cannons, eh?
They may not offer outright kills, but they'll disable a panzer with ease, and you can move on to the next and let the poor saps ditch. Tiger turrets are a bit tougher to take out, but if you get a good set of hits inside of D400 on the top-rear of it, it'll go poof. I've also blown up tigers in one pass, probably pure luck, by aiming between the turret and the side of the tank.
A little tip.. If you take the small bombs, salvo them in sets of two.. I also use rockets that way, but it's just a preference.
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Gotta love poppin M16s from 1.1 out that were hopin for an easy kill :)
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My best results with Yak9T is coming in VERY low.
Works best if there is a big GV push on, make passes back & forth at low level.
Any GV you can line up on wait till your about 600 out & give him 3 good hits with the cannon.
If you can hit him 3 in a row in the same spot he's ussually toast.
Tricky, but doable with practise.
I also love it for busting up bomber formations. Only takes one or 2 hits to disable a bomber.
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Best thing about the Il2 with 37mm cannons is the ammo load.
50 rounds per gun (directly into the wings)
200KG bombload could be carried as overload.
Each gun weighted 237KG with ammo.
Guns had to be fired at the same time because of the powerfull recoil of the guns.
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I've had prettly limited success with the 9T against Panzers, about the same situation as I have with the Il-2. I get tonnes of wounding shots (engine) but very few out-right kills. From my understanding the NS-37 was a very powerful gun with excellent muzzle velocity so I would have thought it would have been a little more effective than what I've found in AH. I tend to get about the same results with the Il-2 (a lot of damaging shots) but the kills comes when the guy bails or someone else finishes the job.
The 9T is very nice against bombers, Ghosth, I totally agree. All those bomber guys who come in at 500ft off the ground are easy pickings if you can get your 9T in close and open up. Even though 30mm are great against bombers, I'd have to say the 37mm is at least 2-3 times better.
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Both of the YAK aircraft are a whole lot of fun to fly in any role.:aok
That NS37 gun is an amazing piece of hardware. It has similar effects againts buildings as the M8s 37mm AP round so I would think that it is modeled as an AP round. This might be incorrect but that is the model.
Flying the YAK-9T in the Finn/Rus setups in the CT is an excellent time. :)
I've never required more than 3 hits to kill any aircraft in AH. Unless the target is as large as a light bomber 1 round and it is over.
The NS37s ballistics match up to the UBS out to nearly 600 yards pretty well. I normally set all YAK guns to D400 and consider shots out to 700.
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Originally posted by scJazz
That NS37 gun is an amazing piece of hardware. It has similar effects againts buildings as the M8s 37mm AP round so I would think that it is modeled as an AP round. This might be incorrect but that is the model.
I've never required more than 3 hits to kill any aircraft in AH. Unless the target is as large as a light bomber 1 round and it is over.
The NS37s ballistics match up to the UBS out to nearly 600 yards pretty well. I normally set all YAK guns to D400 and consider shots out to 700.
Fighter guns in AH tend to get combined effects of both AP and HE as I think that was a compromise to help simulate varied ammo loads.
My point is, when I compare the NS37 to the Il-2 23mm, I don't get all that much difference in effect. I can disable a Panzer with either at short range but my instant kills shots are pretty rare. Looking at the velocity and mass of the NS37 I would have thought it superior to the 23mm in a pretty clear way. IE, if you could wound Panzers with a 23mm on a decent shot, the NS37 should pop right through under the same conditions.
Most light bombers can't even take 2 hits but ScJazz your calculations showed the 37mm has ~1.5 times the power of a Mk108 30mm and ~ 4 times as much as a hispano. No wonder hits like that hurt.
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Sorry about hijacking this thread...
There is no doubt in my mind that AC guns are not modeled correctly in dealing with armored vehicles. Soda your comments regarding the IL2 23mm and the NS37 are right on target. It is fairly easy to damage GVs with either gun. Killing a GV with one is another matter entirely. I've found and I'd think you would agree that all AC mounted guns (not counting .30s) have a reasonable chance of damaging a GV as long as the angle of attack is right. Coming in high and to the rear or sides is about the only necessary strategy when dealing with GVs in a strafing run. The fact that the ammo belts for ACs are modeled in a vague "average" way combined with the damage resistance model of GVs being at least odd makes for very inconsistent results.
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Originally posted by scJazz
[Sorry about hijacking this thread...
There is no doubt in my mind that AC guns are not modeled correctly in dealing with armored vehicles.
You should do a search in the aircraft/vehicle forum. there's a ton of data in there on this stuff.
-Sik
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I know... read a whole bunch of it which is why I'm certain that things are not right.
TY though...
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It is possible that "averaging" of damage effects is causing the problem, because when it comes to armor penetration, it's all or nothing.
If aircraft ammo belts should have alternating HE/AP/Incindiery rounds, and you instead average the effects of all three so that every round has a combined, lessened effect, then you reduce your overall ability to penetrate armor.
If a hypothetical AP round has 30mm of armor penetration, it might be enough to punch through the skin on various vehicles. If you give, say, half that penetration to every round in the belt instead of having half or one third of the rounds in the belt with proper penetration, then now you have all of your bullets with 10-15mm penetration. If a certain vehicle has 25mm of armor, now you can't pierce it, where before you could.
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Yak9t is one of my favorite tank busters.
Very effective.
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Originally posted by Ecliptik
It is possible that "averaging" of damage effects is causing the problem, because when it comes to armor penetration, it's all or nothing.
I think you misunderstood, each aircraft round has the full properties of both an AP and HE round, not that they less effective, if anything they are way over-effective inheriting the best of both types of ammunition.
-Soda
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I love the Yak 9-T. When I first flew it I assumed the 37 mm would be as bad or worse than the German 30mm.
I recall exactly when my perception changed. I was flying base defense against GVs when a P-38 JABOED in and popped a few rounds at me as he screamed by. I was down to 2 shells left, so what the heck, I pulled nose up and fired at D 1.1. To my surprise, and no doubt the P-38's, his tail blew off!
That's when I read up on the weapon and discovered it has as high or higher muzzle velocity as the vaunted hizzookas. So I practiced with the .target command. Holy Cow, this thing shoots flat and far !
Since then I've had a blast with it. I make regular kills on unsuspecting bogies who blow by and quit manouvering when they think they are out of range at D800.
My best luck in killing Panzers comes with a high angle (near straight down) attack. This keeps them from knocking out your radiator, which happens constantly in a low level, low angle attack. But it also gets more outright kills, not just wounded panzers.
However the GV damage model is porked (how many threads are there on "I hit the Panzer 5 times with my Tiger and he survived"), so it's hard to be consistent killing Panzers with the Yak 9-T.
Against fighters, I have never once had to land more than 1 hit to take them out. As soon as I see the flash of the ping I turn away to assess the SA, because they always end in a kill. (I only fire the cannon in the Yak 9-T, so no confusing 12.7 mm mg hits.
It's not a multi kill wonder plane. It has lots of vices. But I sure have fun in it.
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Small tip, when you fly yakT, unload .50s on the runway.
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most aircraft guns are not meant to, and are not effective against medium tanks and heavier.
the exception is 37mm stuka with tungsten shots.
Even larger bombs had a hard time to inflict damage if they did not hit very close or ontop of an tank.
Here is an excellent site about guns
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/
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TANKBUSTERS: AIRBORNE ANTI-TANK GUNS IN WW2 (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm)
Of the single-engined aircraft, the Yak-9T and P-39 were not intended as ground attack planes, but they had the potential as their layouts permitted the carrying of heavy guns.
The Yak-9T, with one NS-37 mounted on the engine and a synchronised 12.7mm Berezin, was a good fighter well able to look after itself, but it wasn't perfect in the anti-tank role. The gun's heavy recoil pushed the nose out of alignment, so only two or three shots could be fired before the pilot had to correct the aim, and it carried insufficient armour to protect its vulnerable engine cooling system from ground fire (it took only a single bullet to penetrate the radiator or coolant lines of a liquid-cooled engine to ensure that the plane would not return to base). There was also room behind the engine for only 32 rounds of cannon ammunition. Our 'ideal' gun would be a bit lighter, and the ammunition would be slightly smaller, allowing weight and space for more armour and ammunition (or alternatively an additional Berezin). However, to provide the kind of comprehensive armour protection carried by the Il-2 would probably have crippled the performance.
The yak9t was typically flown in the a2a role not as a tank buster and didnt typically carry ap rounds.
Here is another good quote
The ineffectiveness of air attack against tanks should have caused no surprise because the weapons available to the fighter-bombers were not suitable for destroying them. Put simply, the heavy machine guns and 20 mm cannon were capable of hitting the tanks easily enough, but insufficiently powerful to damage them, except occasionally by chance. The RPs and bombs used were certainly capable of destroying the tanks but were too inaccurate to hit them, except occasionally by chance."
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Heres an old thread in which Tony Williams answer the ap in Yak9t:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83309