Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vermillion on November 01, 2000, 12:45:00 PM
-
After reading the thread about how supposedly the F8F Bearcat was inspired by a capture Fw190A5, I almost laughed my hind end off when I read this thread over on AGW today (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Enjoy!
*Throws another load of fuel on the flamewar fire* (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Where did the Spitfire Wing come from??
Why its design was inspired by the German built He 70 of course!
October 200 issue of AEROPLANE:
"The elliptical wing on the Heinkel He 70, an aircraft which demonstrated its capabilities to the world throughout 1933 and 1934, was acknowledged by Beverley Shenstone, the aerodynamicist on the F.37/34 (Spitfire Wing), as crucial to leading design trends on the Spitfire."
So the next time your flying your overmodeled, E-enriched Spitfire into the middle of a fight....just thank good ole fashion German engineering.
*Starts up the grill and throws the beer into the cooler to chill*
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
see.....what the rest of the world comes up with, the British improve upon. ;-)
Swoop
(a Brit)
-
I thought the Spit came out of an early 30's racing plane (with floats!) concept?
-
lol
-
Spit's wing is based on the "Supermarine(surprise.. same company!!) S.6B(S1695) winner of the final 1931 Scheider Trophy race at an average speed of 340.48MPH. This and subsequent new speed record of 408.8MPH were achieved thanks to a very careful streamlining combined with high wing loading and the light water cooled Rolls-Royce R engine developing 2300HP at only 1630lb weight" P272-273 of The Great Book of World War II Airplanes
Find anything else as asanine as that while you were over there Verm? ;-)
-SW
-
Westy hasn't jumped on this? I better go pop some corn and grab beer.
------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
-
I use to hate flaming. Then I started to sit back and read them, Now I'm starting to enjoy them!! WHATS NEXT START THEM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) I blame this on Human Nature!!! hehehe
------------------
NHFoxtro
-XO-NightHawks
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/nhcouger.gif)
NightHawks "WE BAD"
-
I thought Al Gore was the inspiration for the Spit? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
(http://www.unsere-luftwaffe.de/archiv/aufflz/he170.jpg)
I have been shot down by this plane!!! I can't remeber right off hand if it was Camel or Moss but it was over A5 and it was armed with two .50's and two 20mm while sporting roundels on the wings and fuselage.
-Westy
-
He wasn't the inspiration Mighty1, he invented it!
ts
-
Originally posted by Mighty1:
I thought Al Gore was the inspiration for the Spit? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ROTFLOL!
-
Al Gore invented the first airplane, not the spitfire. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
So what was the big deal about the elliptical wing? Was it something to do with stall characteristics? Drag? What about washout? And how about aileron authority at high angles of attack? What airfoil was used? Was the airoil maintained through all versions? Questions, questions, questions. Who has the answers?
-
Well, the Japanese made it possible for the P38 to be born before the War...Lockheed was almost bankrupt, Japan bought a few Lockheed commercial A/C which ended up keeping the company afloat by dumping that money into the P38 program...Thanks Japan! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Got any beefs about the FM and planes in AH? Blame Al Gore,.he invented it.
------------------
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
-
gore did not actually invent the internet... He invented the internet tax. A glance at your phone bill will prove his contribution.
lazs
-
Hey Verm! Al Gore hi-jacked your thread, he invented it!
-
Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
Spit's wing is based on the "Supermarine(surprise.. same company!!) S.6B(S1695) winner of the final 1931 Scheider Trophy race at an average speed of 340.48MPH. This and subsequent new speed record of 408.8MPH were achieved thanks to a very careful streamlining combined with high wing loading and the light water cooled Rolls-Royce R engine developing 2300HP at only 1630lb weight" P272-273 of The Great Book of World War II Airplanes
Find anything else as asanine as that while you were over there Verm? ;-)
-SW
I noticed you started the quote after your remark about the wing. Does the book say anything about using the wing of the S.6B? I thought it was odd that one of the features of the S.6B you pointed out was the high wing loading...which does really correspond to the Spitfire. Anyone....anyone.....Bueller?
------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
-
Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
I noticed you started the quote after your remark about the wing. Does the book say anything about using the wing of the S.6B? I thought it was odd that one of the features of the S.6B you pointed out was the high wing loading...which does really correspond to the Spitfire. Anyone....anyone.....Bueller?
[/b]
I started it because it didn't cleary state that. I gave that quote because that is the basis of the elliptical design(that particular planes wing. Look at a 3-view drawing of it.. it's the same wing.
-SW
-
oops
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 11-01-2000).]
-
Sorry guys, VERMILLION is 100% right.
i read this article and thought to myselfe
(an LW fan) DOH!!!!!!!!.
the briths were totally crazy when they saw the he70 design. they liked the plane more
than the germans.
it reached 463km/h with the KESTREL XVI engine, and with the PEREGRINE(845ps) it reached 481km/h at 5000m. they took the he70
into a "windkanal"(don't know english word,
but it's the thing with the strong wind to
simulate airspeed) to get his aerodynamic
secrets. end of 1939 it was out of service
at rolls-royce and 1945 it was destroyed.
supermarine aviation was deeply impressed from the quality of the surface of the he70.
they wrote in a letter to heinkel, that they
didn't reached such a perfect finish even in their "schneider-tropy" raceplanes. letter was from 1933. they althought didn't believed, that such a great surfaces could be done on a metall fuselage. all in all, the supermarine engeniers were DEPLY impressed by the he70.
beverley shenstone wrote 1958!(death of ernst heinkel) that the he70 was the aerodynamical model of the performance calculations for the spitfire.
------------------
(http://home.t-online.de/home/sebastian.schweizer/he70.JPG
)
[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 11-01-2000).]
-
So, if the Germans did indeed develope the first eliptical wing, then how come they didn't use it? That 109 sure ain't the same wing as the Spit... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Or, did it take the Brits to refine the Germans first attempt at a nice planeform? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
HABICHT,
"Windkanal" in english is "Windtunnel".
Sisu
-Karnak
-
RIPSNORT, THAT's a dammed good question!
don't know it.
but it was good. so i can B&Z now and don't
have to turn all the day....
WHY IS THIS DAMMED PIC IN FIRST POST NOT
SHOWING????
-
I have allways wondered why so many Americans seems to really hate the Spitfire.. Jealous or what?
Same time I also wonder why the P51 is allways referred to as "the Caddilac of the Sky" when it was a plane produced in America after British specifications, and was a British plane through most of the war. Actually the original plane was pretty unuseable untill the Brits had modified it a lot and put a proper British engine in it. Wouldent it be more correct to call it the Rolls Royce of the Sky?
------------------
GrinBird
-
Some pointers~
The P-51A--with the AMERICAN engine--was the fastest plane in the ETO under 10k at the time of its introduction, and it was VERY successful in the roles it was used for. It posessed greater range than any of the British fighters and was highly successful for photo recon and light strikes. It was most definately NOT "unusable." Indeed, the British considered it to be the best American fighter to date.
Unfortunately, compared to its later British-engined sibling, people forget that the P-51A (Mustang I) was quite successful in its own right.
As for the Merlin engine, Both the British and the Americans experimented with it in the P-51 at the same time. Too bad they spent over a year haggling over it, or we could have had P-51B's in the beginning of 1943 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also, I don't know of any Americans who "hate" the spitfire, and there is certainly no reason to be "jealous" of it. The Spit was probably the best defensive fighter of the war (piston-engined, at least). Likewise, the P-51 was probably the best long-range escort fighter of the war. Americans might like the P-51 better--but then again, British like the Spit better and Germans like the FW-190 better.
J_A_B
Oh yeah, what was this thread about?
-
Macchi's ate Spitfire's even in thirties (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) The seaplane world speed record is still hold by the mighty Macchi MC72. October 23, 1933:
... The chronometry officials are present, there is a slight wind rippling the water surface. The sky is covered and the weather begins to change only after 1:00 P.M. At 1:50 P.M. everybody takes his place and the pilot gets into his plane. At 1:56 P.M. He takes off after an interminable run up. Visibility is far from excellent. For turnnig Agello takes the Montichiari church dome as orientation point. With a baffing speed of 709 km/h he makes four passes and establishes a record that will never be beaten by any seaplane with piston engine. One has to wait August 7, 1961 before the Russian Nicolaï Andrievski does better with a jet seaplane...
(http://www.atinternet.com/benjamin/images/macchiL.jpg)
-
LOL.. dammo.. more old wives tales.
The Spit was a direct offshoot of the S series of sea-plane racers that eventually ended the Schneider Cup competitions by outclassing the compettion by an incredible margin.. then the fastest plane in the world; it was ironic it sat on floats. England (thanks to Supermarine) was the first country to win the tri-annual race 3x in a row... and the great Schnider Cup Races became legend. At this point in history; AIR RACING was the largest national spectator sport in the world; eclipsing even baseball; soccer or anthing else ever concieved..
(http://pgts.decollage.org//cupeng/coupeeng.htm)
Ever since Curtiss decided to stick the stab on the back end of a fuselage; everybody has plagerised everybody elses work in aircraft design. The elliptical tip was not a German invention; nor was it a British invention. The French used it first. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As far at the P51 is concerened; I've heard this "British Design" nonsense before.. the facts are:
"In April of 1940, Kindelberger (NA C.E.O) was summoned by the British Air Purchasing Commision and asked to manufacture the Curtiss Hawk 87 (P-40D) under license for the RAF. Kindelberger responded that NAA could do that if it were really required, but countered that he and his company could build a better fighter than the P-40 and that they could design a REAL fighter in the same time that it would take to put the P-40 into production. The British commission felt that they could take Kindelberger at his word, and on April 10, 1940 they accepted his proposal on the condition that the first prototype be ready in 120 days. The design was assigned the company project name of Model NA-73.
At that time, the USAAC reserved for itself the right to block any foreign aircraft sales that it regarded as not in the Army's interest, for whatever reason. On May 4, 1940, the US Army reluctantly agreed not to block the British sale, but they added a condition. Two examples of the initial NA-73 lot for Britain were to be transferred to the USAAC for testing free of charge."
So; in short, British NEED for the plane inspired its initial full scale production; (Kindleberger already had the plane designed on 'spec' by his own team; a key member of that team reportedly having been involved in the development of the bf-109) but it's DESIGN and concept was American as apple pie; baseball and Superman. Further, it's success as the pre-eminent escort fighter for the allies was an AMERICAN accomplishment. If the Britsh could have done it; they WOULD have. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 11-01-2000).]
-
Originally posted by GrinBird:
I have allways wondered why so many Americans seems to really hate the Spitfire.. Jealous or what?
Same time I also wonder why the P51 is allways referred to as "the Caddilac of the Sky" when it was a plane produced in America after British specifications, and was a British plane through most of the war. Actually the original plane was pretty unuseable untill the Brits had modified it a lot and put a proper British engine in it. Wouldent it be more correct to call it the Rolls Royce of the Sky?
Hangtime got it right- and there isn't a shred of fact in anything said in the above quote.
The Allison Mustang was good- the Rolls Mustang was better. Fact is, I wish we could have the P51A; it would be far more maneuverable than the D we have now, and raise more than a few eyebrows down low. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Was not the bmw 801 considered a development of the wasp?
-
Yes Pongo.
BMW 139 (?) was a copy of the Wasp. 801 was a scaled up version.
-
Kieren what I'd really like is a Mustang Mk. I. With a checkerboard on the nose of course (309 Sqn. markings). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Hi
The S6B wing is not eliptical. Every picture of it shows it to be constant chord with rounded wingtips. Rounded wingtips does not mean elliptical. Ill dig up a 3 view to confirm this as soon as I can. The point is S6B wing looks nothing like a Spitfire wing. Please compare that to this:
(http://home.t-online.de/home/sebastian.schweizer/he70.JPG)
BTW plese keep it civil. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
Hi
Ripsnort The Heinkel He112, competitor to the 109, did have a broad eliptical wing. So did the He111 bomber. Why not the 109, well the 109 was a Messerschimt product and he had different ideas about fighter design than did Heinkel designers.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
What? Damn.. there's gotta be half a hunnered era aircraft that have widley divergent originations and yet look incredibly similar. And fer crissakes, EVERYBODY steals from everybody else in aircraft design. And elliptical wing planforms had been around quite awile when Heinkele used it.
You guys seem to focus on the planforms elliptical shape and it's effect on the aircraft, and as far as that goes there's merit in the claim for clouded 'heridity'..
Hell yes, sure; Supermarine was looking to reduce drag, and mebbe they outright stole the planform to go the further steps they felt they had to take to continue to refine their airframe and reduce drag... (so did the germans) but there's a lot more to what became a Spitfire than the wing planform.
The airfoil, wing construction, spar arrangement; control size; placement, moments, CG stability, power to weight, etc all make the spitty a Spitfire.
In their search for a faster airfoil; certainly Supermarine used the lowest drag planform available, and the results speak for themselves. A joy to fly; lots of power, very nimble and responsive thru an astounding speed and air density range.
However.. consider; in Supermarines 30 year exhaustive search for a faster airfiol they never hit on the RIGHT answer. Guess who did. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"A special NACA laminar flow wing profile was adopted for the Mustang. This was an airfoil which had a thickness that kept on increasing far beyond the usual location, i.e., to 50 percent chord rather than the usual 20 percent. The symmetrical airfoil had no camber, the undersurface being almost a mirror image of the upper. This wing was much more "slippery" than the airfoils then in use, and provided far less aerodynamic drag at high speeds... "
And that's what makes a pony a Mustang. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Hi
The S6B wing is not eliptical.
No, it's not. The spit wing IS based on it though. You straighten the leading edge of the S6B's wing, and it's elliptical. It took refined wing from the S6B to form the Spit's highly successful wing.
-SW
-
HeHe Seems to be a good day for trolling (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://www.bigjon.com/tips/photos/1.jpg)
-
Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
No, it's not. The spit wing IS based on it though. You straighten the leading edge of the S6B's wing, and it's elliptical. It took refined wing from the S6B to form the Spit's highly successful wing.
-SW
Wonder why your book doesn't clearly state that? I'm more inclined to believe a quote from one of the Spit designers than your extrapolations. Time for me to get up on the "aircraft know-it-all" pedestal...where's the proof?
------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
-
Here's a plane I used to own that has Spitfire-type wings. Can anyone guess what it is? A couple of clues. It was built in 1941, and the designer of the plane went on to design a line of general aviation aircraft that is still being produced. Click image for bigger picture.
(http://www.az.com/~wm/plane/lca1s.jpg) (http://www.az.com/~wm/plane/lca1.jpg)
(http://www.az.com/~wm/plane/lca2s.jpg) (http://www.az.com/~wm/plane/lca2.jpg)
(http://www.az.com/~wm/plane/lca3s.jpg) (http://www.az.com/~wm/plane/lca3.jpg)
(http://www.az.com/~wm/plane/lca4s.jpg) (http://www.az.com/~wm/plane/lca4.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Biggles (edited 11-01-2000).]
-
Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
Wonder why your book doesn't clearly state that? I'm more inclined to believe a quote from one of the Spit designers than your extrapolations. Time for me to get up on the "aircraft know-it-all" pedestal...where's the proof?
[/B]
No need to be hostile. I said the wing was BASED not taken from the F6B. The F7/30 was BASED on the F6B and the Spitfire's wing was based on the F7/30(224).. modified a lot but nevertheless based on it.
Here you are, same book, page 275.
"The structure of the wing was unique, and in part a legacy fromt he 224. The steam-cooling system of the Goshawk engine demanded that the entire leading edge of the wing be devoted to condesers, and to this end the leading edge forward of the single main spar was sealed and formed into a structural torsion box. The technique was refined on the 300(Spitfire MkI) to provide sufficient stiffness and strength in the thin, large-area wing. The mainspar itself was formed of square section tubes 'telescoped' together so that the narrowest and longest extended to the tip of the wing;..."
If you want to read more, buy the book.
Do you smell something? I do.. BURN!!!
-SW
-
FYI, When they are referring to the Spit's using an Elliptical Wing, that not only means in planform, but also Lift Distribution across the wing. This allowed the Spit's wing structure to be very efficient (I.E.-Low weight for the given load). The Heinkel was the first to use this, from what I have been able to find. However, I am also pretty sure that the airfoil section on the Spit was modified from the airfoil section used in the S.6B. I just received this book:
SpitfireBook (http://www.keymags.co.uk/specials/spitfirebook/index.html)
and I will read the first chapter next week (Which covers the development by starting at the Supermarine F.24/F.30 series aircraft) and see if it sheds any light with regard to this issue.
P.S.- Gore probably invented the elliptical wing planform and distribution. Bush probably thinks he can get us better air to fly in. Nader...who's Nader.
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 11-01-2000).]
-
Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
No need to be hostile. I said the wing was BASED not taken from the F6B. The F7/30 was BASED on the F6B and the Spitfire's wing was based on the F7/30(224).. modified a lot but nevertheless based on it.
Here you are, same book, page 275.
"The structure of the wing was unique, and in part a legacy fromt he 224. The steam-cooling system of the Goshawk engine demanded that the entire leading edge of the wing be devoted to condesers, and to this end the leading edge forward of the single main spar was sealed and formed into a structural torsion box. The technique was refined on the 300(Spitfire MkI) to provide sufficient stiffness and strength in the thin, large-area wing. The mainspar itself was formed of square section tubes 'telescoped' together so that the narrowest and longest extended to the tip of the wing;..."
If you want to read more, buy the book.
Do you smell something? I do.. BURN!!!
-SW
I don't smell anything yet. That excerpt only states that the torsion box technique was refined in the Spit MkI. I don't see anything about an airfoil or wing shape. And I wasn't getting hostile, just playing the role of all the people who jump on any Luftwaffe claim. If you show me something referring to an airfoil or wing-shape, I will gladly accept it. I'm not really taking a side here, because I know nothing about it.
------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
-
mooney?
-
Originally posted by Hangtime:
As far at the P51 is concerened; I've heard this "British Design" nonsense before.. the facts are:
"In April of 1940, Kindelberger (NA C.E.O) was summoned by the British Air Purchasing Commision and asked to manufacture the Curtiss Hawk 87 (P-40D) under license for the RAF. Kindelberger responded that NAA could do that if it were really required, but countered that he and his company could build a better fighter than the P-40 and that they could design a REAL fighter in the same time that it would take to put the P-40 into production. The British commission felt that they could take Kindelberger at his word, and on April 10, 1940 they accepted his proposal on the condition that the first prototype be ready in 120 days. The design was assigned the company project name of Model NA-73.
So; in short, British NEED for the plane inspired its initial full scale production; (Kindleberger already had the plane designed on 'spec' by his own team; a key member of that team reportedly having been involved in the development of the bf-109) but it's DESIGN and concept was American as apple pie; baseball and Superman. Further, it's success as the pre-eminent escort fighter for the allies was an AMERICAN accomplishment. If the Britsh could have done it; they WOULD have. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
I've read this book
"Mustang designer", Edgar Schmued
began before but completed after his death.
Correction, according this source, the notion that the P51 was inspired by the 109 or by a member of the 109 design team is nothing but a myth, drawing on nothing except Schmued's german heritage and the fact that both had square wings.
A contributing reason to the British purchasing commisions acceptance of Kindelbergers offer to design a better fighter instead of building the P40 was that the british was very impressed by the quality of the (North American) T6 Texan then used as a british trainer.
Schmued had for a long time (years) toyed width the idea of designing a fighter, he had studied comtemporary designs and made sketches of detail design solutions.
So then North American got the order he was well prepared.
-
LOL!! I thought that post would generate some interest (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sorry but I should point out that it was originally Gunr's post over on AGW, and I accidently cut his callsign off when I cut and pasted the original message.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
Hangtime shout:
(the P.51)= "it's DESIGN and concept was American as apple pie; baseball and Superman. "
Baseball was copied from a british sport (dont remember the name).
Muhahahahaha (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(Naso dive for cover of the ack, escaping from Hang's bullets).
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Cricket (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And Superman uses red underwear over his supertrousers...I wont be so proud about him (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<RAM follows Naso in his run>
-
The only thing the P-51 was "copied" from sure wasn't British
Curtiss was so busy producing P-40's that they had no ability to build other aircraft. That is somewhat unfortunate for Curtiss, as they HAD a mostly completed design ready. I think it was the XP-46 or something like that (not sure about actual designation) The XP-46 (or whatever it was) featured much reduced drag than other fighters.
Either way, when North American decided to produce an entirely new fighter, they bought the design that Curtiss had been working on. The resulting XP-51 was NOT a direct copy of the Curtiss design, but the similarities in appearance are unmistakable.
Basically North American took the Curtiss design and improved it in every way, creating a completely new airplane in the process.
J_A_B
-
Yeah Ram he does but would you want to kid him about it?
I'd say anyone who was a strong as Superman could wear anything he wanted.
Besides he had to wear something to hide that Superwoody.
-
ApplePie is just a poor replica of the good old "aeblekage" from Denmark (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
GrinBird
-
Originally posted by Citabria:
mooney?
Good guess. You got the name of the designer right.
The plane is a 1941 Culver Cadet LCA. There was also an LCF model. The letters designated which engine was used, Continental or Franklin. The plane was actually quite popular in military circles (training mostly). A variant of the Cadet was used as a remote control target drone by the military.
(http://www.pimaair.org/pictures/imge040.jpg) (http://www.pimaair.org/cul_pq14.htm)
-
LOL.. Schmued was responsible for the basic engineering and inter-relationships of the various systems that went into the Pony; and had not much to do with the outward apperance. The form of the pony was truly a team effort.
Which brings us to the next myth:
Curtiss was so busy producing P-40's that they had no ability to build other aircraft. That is somewhat unfortunate for Curtiss, as they HAD a mostly completed design ready. I think it was the XP-46 or something like that (not sure about actual designation) The XP-46 (or whatever it was) featured much reduced drag than other fighters.
Either way, when North American decided to produce an entirely new fighter, they bought the design that Curtiss had been working on. The resulting XP-51 was NOT a direct copy of the Curtiss design, but the similarities in appearance are unmistakable.
Basically North American took the Curtiss design and improved it in every way, creating a completely new airplane in the process.
Nope. Read, and be educated. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"Another urban legend surrounding the Mustang is that it owed a great deal to the Curtiss XP-46 and, in fact, stole numerous design features from that fighter. It is true that the British had insisted that since NAA had no fighter experience they should secure all current data from Curtiss about both the P-40 and the XP-46. Although NAA did pay $56,000 to Curtiss for technical aerodynamic data on the XP-46, there was only a very broad resemblance between the XP-46 and the NA-73X. The Curtiss aircraft shared only a similar radiator/ oil-cooler configuration with the NA-73X, and did not have laminar flow wings. In point of fact, the development of the XP-46 lagged behind that of the NA-73X, and prototypes were not ready for flight until February of 1941. In addition, preliminary design of the NA-73X was completed before NAA gained access to the Curtiss material. It could even be argued that the XP-46 data was most useful to NAA in guiding them in what NOT to do. The NA-73X appears to owe virtually nothing to any previous fighter design."
Hehehhehe.. yah can't steal the pony's thunder. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
-
So basically your source says the same thing I said.
North American looked over the Curtiss design and made it better in every way, resulting in a completely new airplane.
And, the XP-51 and XP-46 do have a certain similarity in appearance, because both tried to minimize drag.
J_A_B
-
Well, then I'll add this (borrowed from Sniper on the AGw thread)
His (Mitchell's) thinking was influenced by Germany's sleek Heinkel 70 monoplane of 1932, with its flowing curves, immaculately countersunk rivets and contoured monocoque fuselage, an aircraft that also borrowed much from Lockheed's modernistic Orion transport. Chief among the streamlined Heinkel 70's appealing hallmarks was a broad elliptical wing, which later found its way into the Spitfire's design." (source Airpower May 99)
As Sniper said, looks like everyone was stealing from everyone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
-
The Brits did design the P-51..after the fact...and it was called the M.B.5 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
They also rejected the M.B.5 (On mostly industrial/political grounds, as the Martin-Baker design had one of the most advanced `structural designs' from an ease of maintenance standpoint and reportedly one of the best `cockpit' designs from an ergonomics point of view. Too bad we can't have one of those puppies in AH!).
Oh, and you have to give Dutch extra-credit for his A-36 move! What a way to keep a line open.
SD